Here's an etext! Happy hunting :)

http://ia700700.us.archive.org/18/items/QuantumElectrodynamics/Feynman-QuantumElectrodynamics.pdf




On 17 October 2013 10:33, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

>
> On 16 Oct 2013, at 16:46, John Clark wrote:
>
> On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>
> > The point is that with the step 3 protocol, you (the H-guy) can never
>> predict among {W, M}, if the result will be "I feel being the W-man", or "I
>> feel being the M-man".
>>
>
> That's because neither will happen, however I the Helsinki Man can predict
> that I the Helsinki Man will see only Helsinki. I the Helsinki Man can also
> predict that I the Helsinki Man will turn into the Moscow Man or the
> Washington Man,  but is unable to know which because I the Helsinki Man
> don't know if the next photon that will enter the eye of I the Helsinki Man
> will come from Moscow or Washington.
>
>
> OK. We agree. You do grasp enough of the FPI to proceed to step 4.
>
>
>
> I the Helsinki Man can make a third prediction, even if the predictions
> made by I the Helsinki Man turn out to be wrong (actually they won't be
> wrong in this instance but it wouldn't matter if they were) I the Helsinki
> Man would still feel like I the Helsinki Man.
>
>
> We completely agree on this.
> With "your theory of identity", both the M-man and the W-man are the
> H-man.
>
>
>
>
>
>>  > If you are OK with this, please proceed.
>>
>
> I'm not OK with this
>
>
> ???
>
>
> and will not proceed.
>
>
> ???
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>   >> the founders of Quantum Mechanics were saying 2 things that neither
>>> Pascal or Boltzman were:
>>>  1) Some events have no cause.
>>>
>>
>> > Only those believing in the collapse
>>
>
> You can say that what the founders of Quantum Mechanics were saying was
> wrong if you like, but they were talking about wave collapse.  And the
> founders of Quantum Mechanics would also say that arguing over the
> difference between a event with no cause and a event with a cause that can
> never be detected even in theory is a waste of time.
>
>
> They were under the spell of Vienna positivism. Einstein said about this
> that he would have preferred to be plumber than to hear things like that.
>
> Anywy, with comp and/or Everett, we have no more any reason to believe in
> event without cause.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>  > that Feynman called a collective hallucination.
>>
>
> Hmm, I've heard lots of people say that reality is a collective
> hallucination and I know a few Feynman sayings but I never heard him say
> that about wave collapse.
>
>
> It is in a footnote in his little book on light. I don't have it under my
> hand for now.
>
>
>
> When did he say it? What is the entire quotation? Google can't seem to
> find anything like that.
>
>
> Ah! You force me to do research in my (new) apartment. Let me pray that it
> is not in some box ...
>
> ... I found it, and the quote. It is page 108 of my french edition
> ""Lumière et Matière, une étrange histoire", which is a translation of his
> book "QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter".
>
> The exact quote in french is: "Il est bon de garder à présent à l'esprit
> ce principe général si l'on ne veut pas tomber dans toutes sortes de
> confusions telles que la 'réduction du paquet d'ondes' et autres effets
> magiques".
> I translate: " It is good to keep that general idea in mind if we want to
> avoid all sorts of confusions like 'the reduction of the wave packet' or
> other magical effect."
> (the general idea is that the wave represents an amplitude of probability,
> whose squared gives the probability).
>
>
>
>
>> > I do not need more about identity than "your definition". Anyone
>> capable of remembering having been X, has the right to be recognized as X.
>>
>
> The problem has never been X calling himself X, that's fine; the problem
> comes when you a third party who never remembers being X starts talking
> about "X"  to yet another third party in a world that has 2 things in it
> that have a equal right to call themselves "X" because duplication chambers
> exist. If somebody hides behind pronouns in such a world anything can be
> "proven".
>
>
>
> Only see a problem here, when there is just an indetermination on a
> subjective outcome.
>
>
>
>
>> > So, asking me to not use pronouns, in what is in great part a theory of
>> pronouns, is like asking me to square the circle.
>>
>
> Yes, just as John Clark thought. It is theoretically impossible to explain
> Bruno Marchal's ideas without using ill defined pronouns to hide behind and
> without assuming the very things that Bruno Marchal is attempting to prove.
>
>
> No made ill use of pronouns, and you mock when I added the necessary
> nuances: notably the distinction between first person pov and third person
> pov, completely defined in sharable 3p terms.
>
>
> The only explanation given is I is I and you is you and he is he, but
> before Euclid even started his first proof he made crystal clear what all
> his terms meant, and Euclid never said a line is a line.
>
>
> Nor did I.
>
>
>
>
>
>> > You confuse [blah blah]
>>
>
> And when I provide precise and of course more lengthy explanations, you
> just skip them. This can't help you.
>
>
>
> There is one thing John Clark is most certainly not confused about, unless
> used very very carefully pronouns will cause endless confusion in a world
> where duplicating chambers exist.
>
>
>
> Sure, that is why I cautiously define the use through the diaries, which
> is kept by the experiencer (first person view) and not (third person view).
> This is explained in all the publications, with more or less details.
>
> I have no clue of any problem with this. You have certainly not succeed in
> showing one, as "you" never distinguish between the 1-view, and the 3-view,
> and it seems you cannot proceed to step 4, for the only reason that you
> don't proceed in the whole step 3. You stop on the 3-view on the 1-views,
> without ever putting yourself in the shoes of all the copies, or just
> reading their accounts in their diaries. For unknown reason, you just stop
> to think.
>
> Bruno
>
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>
>
>
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