Dear Edgar, "how to directly experience reality as it actually is." Now I am most definitely not buying your book. Sorry, but that statement is anathema to me. I have had quite enough of people claiming to have a way for me to know "what is really going on". 99.99999999999999% of the time they are peddling snake oil.
On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edgaro...@att.net> wrote: > Stephen, > > A couple of responses. > > Forget all other theories when you read mine and judge it only on its own > merits... Don't shoehorn! > > Only information is being computed. It exists independent of things. What > are called 'things' are mental interpretations of computational information > domains extracted by biological organisms to facilitate their internal > simulation computations of a continuous reality. > > The information in reality is continuous but it does manifest as domains. > Humans look at domains and variously simulate them as things. E.g. surfers > extract waves from a continuous ocean while oceanographers see currents, > and smelt see tides. There are no individual 'things' in reality because it > is a continuous computational nexus of information. E.g looking at some > area of continuous information we can identify either leaves, twigs, > branches or a whole tree. It's all one continuous information segment but > minds can separate it into overlapping 'things' to facilitate mental > computations. If you understand how robots extract 'things' from raw > sensory input you will understand that. It's a very complex and difficult > and eventually an artificial process dependent on the structure of the > observer's mind... > > Actually the information world, the fact that all is its information only > IS directly observable with understanding and practice. I explain this in > Part VI of my book titled "Realization", that is how to directly experience > reality as it actually is. > > Yes, understanding QM and GR clearly demonstrates reality is not physical. > But that's just the beginning of actually experiencing it as the pure > information it actually is. > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On Monday, January 13, 2014 12:25:54 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: > >> Dear Edgar, >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote: >> >> Stephen, >> >> It's not 'ideal monism'. Trying to shoehorn it won't help you understand >> it. >> >> >> Good point! I tend to have a 5 bin system that I use to categorize >> ontological theories: Material monism, Ideal monism, dualism, pluralism and >> "other" (which would include the various "mysterianisms"). Isms are useful >> for quick and dirty sorting, but can lead one into trouble if one does not >> investigate beyond the surface. >> >> >> >> >> Just take the pure information content of everything that exists out of >> the 'things'. You have pure information. >> >> >> It is statements like this one that leads me to put your ideas into the >> Ideal monism (or Idealism) bin. Have you every read any commentary on >> Bishop Berkeley's ideas and arguments? It would be helpful to have some >> definitions of terms. I use a version of Bateson's definition of >> information: A distinction between two 'things' that makes a difference to >> a third thing. I try hard to not use Platonic notions and concepts that >> imply that 'things' have innate properties and that ignore the role of >> interactions and observers. >> I studied semiotics quite a bit (C.S. Peirce's work), it was very >> useful... >> >> >> >> Now assume that information is continually evolving to compute the >> current state of reality. >> >> >> Is this happening independent of 'things' or are things that which are >> being computed? How is the computation "happening"? If computation is, as I >> define it, the transformation of information, then it cannot be considered >> as an action that occurs independent of 'things'. >> >> >> >> Where does it exist and evolve? Not in a physical world, but in the >> presence of reality itself. >> >> >> But that is a problematic idea! "Reality" makes no sense to me if is does >> not involve that which is observable, and thus considering reality as >> somehow "independent" requires a method to connect it to the physical. Why >> add the extra complication? If the physical world *is* an aspect of the >> computation (and computations "run" on the physical) and is not independent >> of the computations, it removes the need to explain the connection between >> the two realms. They are in essence dual in the mathematical sense of an >> isomorphism. >> >> >> >> Only because there is something that exists called reality which supports >> these computations do they become real and actual... >> >> >> This claim neglects a selection mechanism that would partition the "real >> and actual" from the "unreal...". Existence is not a property that is >> contingent on something else. It is pure necessary possibility flowing from >> non-self-contradiction. One thing one learns from some deep mathematical >> studies is that there are many theories that contradict each other and yet >> are self-consistent. It has been proven that theories that include >> arithmetic will almost always have statements that cannot be proven true or >> false by the theory... >> >> >> >> >> Imagine reality as analogous to an ocean, and information as the forms >> that may arise within that sea, the ripples, waves, currents etc. This >> information is continually interacting and evolving producing the current >> state of the ocean. That's a good model for reality. Reality is a >> non-physical ocean of being, in which the information forms representing >> all the things of the world continually computationally interact to produce >> the current information state of reality. >> >> >> I like the continuum metaphor but it falls apart if there is no >> consideration of the means by which strata and divisions occur within it. I >> am an avowed disciple of Heraclitus and thus like the "Becoming is >> fundamental" idea, but one needs to more carefully model how the >> interactions may occur such that one has a decent model of the >> stratification of forms comes to pass. >> >> >> >> >> It's really a pretty simple model. You just need to drop the assumption >> reality is physical and dimensional at the fundamental level. Why should it >> be? >> >> >> I dropped the idea that reality is physical and dimensional long ago. I >> learned detailed knowledge of QM and GR... >> >> >> >> >> Edgar >> >> >> >> On Monday, January 13, 2014 9:08:53 AM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: >> >> Dear Edgar, >> >> Several of us do not understand what you mean by "pure abstract >> computational information" or "real actuality" and thus cannot evaluate >> your claims. It would be helpful if you proposed some semi-formal >> definitions or pointed to similar discussion by other authors. It seems to >> me that your theory is yet another version of ideal monism and there are >> quite a few of those floating around. >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 7:18 AM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote: >> >> Liz, >> >> How many times do I have to say it before it's clear? Everything in my >> model consists of pure abstract computational information running in the >> real actuality and presence (the logical space) of reality. >> >> There is NO actual physicality whatsoever. As I've said repeatedly, >> physicality, the material world, is how biological organisms interpret the >> information world in their mental models, or simulations, of reality. >> >> To understand the theory this must be clearly understood. >> >> Edgar >> >> >> >> On Thursday, January 9, 2014 11:35:47 PM UTC-5, Liz R wrote: >> >> On 10 January 2014 17:19, meekerdb <meek...@verizon.net> wrote: >> >> On 1/9/2014 7:07 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: >> >> No Liz, I told you what it IS. It's the happening in computational space >> that enables computations to take place since something has to move for >> computations to occur. All it DOES is provide the processor cycle for >> computations. >> >> You seem to be nit picking... >> >> Edgar >> >> On Thursday, January 9, 2014 9:56:19 PM UTC-5, Liz R wrote: >> >> No you spent them telling me what it *does*. I'd like to know what it >> *is.* >> >> >> On 10 January 2014 15:54, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote: >> >> Common Liz, I just spent the last number of posts telling you and Stephen >> what it is... Don't make me repeat myself... >> >> >> I don't know why there is this concern about Edgar's computations. It's >> seems very much like Bruno's, except Bruno's Universal computer is running >> all possible programs (by dovetailing). The time that appears on clocks is >> a computed ordering relation which is conjugate to the conserved quantity >> called "energy". >> >> Bruno's dovetailer is supposedly running (if that's the word) in an >> abstract space, while Edgar's processor units are, as far as one can tell, >> intended to be in some sense physical. It's clear what Bruno's ontology is >> based on, he makes it explicit in his axioms. It isn't clear what Edgar's >> ontology is based on - he seems to be assuming that time and some form of >> computation are fundamental properties of the universe, but not what those >> computers are running on (by Turing equivalence, I assume they COULD be >> running on a desktop PC in some other universe) or what his "universal >> present moment" consists of - is it a linear dimensio, say? But then it >> appears to be quantised, since it only supports discrete computational >> steps. Can time be quantised? What are the implications? Do things like the >> Landauer limit come into his theory? >> >> The concern is, I suspect, due to... >> >> a) a lack of rigour, either logical or mathematical, in describing the >> theory >> b) a lack of testable results, or indications of how one gets from the >> theory to the observed reality >> c) a bad attitude >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/to >> pic/everything-list/TBc_y2MZV5c/unsubscribe. >> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >> everything-li...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. >> >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit >> https://groups.google.com/<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out> >> >> ... > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/TBc_y2MZV5c/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to email@example.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- Kindest Regards, Stephen Paul King Senior Researcher Mobile: (864) 567-3099 stephe...@provensecure.com http://www.provensecure.us/ “This message (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is non-public, proprietary, privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law or may be constituted as attorney work product. 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