On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 2:02 PM, Terren Suydam <terren.suy...@gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>
>> There is still FPI going on in the "rogue" simulation - the one where
>> Glak emerges from an alternative-physics, as there are infinite
>> continuations from Glak's state(s) in the alternative physics.
>>
>>
>> You cannot change the FPI, as it is the same for all machines. You are
>> introducing a special physical continuation, which a priori does not make
>> sense. Glak, in his own normal world obeys the same laws of physics than
>> us, with a very different histories and geographies and biologies.
>>
>>
> I'm asking you, for the moment, and in apparent contradiction with the
> math, to suspend the AUDA entailment that there is a single physics.
>
> What I'm suggesting is that Glak's identity is constructed from something
> more than its characterization as a "mere" Lobian machine. There is a
> reason why I will suddenly never wake up to be Bruno Marchal. Even if we
> are both Lobian machines, there is a lot more that goes through our
> consciousness, in order to arrive at the unique subjective experience and
> identity of Bruno or Terren, than mere Lobianity. I'm taking that further
> by hypothesizing the example of Glak, whose subjective experience and
> identity must be bound to a *particular* physics/biology, in such a way
> that a being who self-identifies as Glak, with all of Glak's memories etc,
> could not possibly manifest in "our" physics.
>

I agree with this point. I think one's own "conscious moment" defines a
particular trajectory of likely experiences and continuations, including
for example, what your future possible experiences are if you open a book
to look up the mass of the electron to be, or the age of the universe. That
we already have such notions on our minds, at least momentarily, traps us
in those universes where those results are correct and definite. A still
stranger idea is that if we forget this, or it slips our mind and we decide
to open a book again and see what the result is, is it certain to even be
the same? Might it change, or agree with a previously remembered value (in
an altogether different universe?), in effect, reality can slip out from
underneath us without us knowing, and later appear to match all our
memories and recollections. But I think we are in some sense bound by the
experience, in the same way how your mom looks could change when you aren't
thinking of how she looks, she could not look grossly different without it
changing the DNA and structure of your brain, so in that sense what
possibilities exist for her is constrained by what you are experiencing now.

Jason


>
> The sticking point of the AUDA for me has always been the identity of us,
> as human beings, with the idealized machines being interviewed. We are
> clearly Lobian, in some sense, but it also seems clear to me that our
> consciousness, our subjective experience, integrates its embodiment. Our
> (apparent) bodies are part of our identities, and through sensory
> interfaces shape our subjective experience... and as our bodies are part of
> physics, then Glak's body in an alternative physics is likewise a part of
> Glak's identity, and the measure of the most probable continuations for
> Glak, I think, require that alternative body, which require an alternative
> physics.
>
> I'm wondering if there's room in the math for an accounting of
> consciousness that goes beyond Lobian machines in such a way as to allow
> for alternate physics.
>
>  Terren
>
>
>>
>>
>> The reason I am still unsure of your answer here Bruno
>>
>>
>> It is a complex question.
>>
>>
>> is that I can imagine a scenario where Glak is implemented in an
>> alternative physics - that is to say, knows herself as Glak and has
>> memories of being Glak - but Glak is not able to be implemented in "our"
>> physics.
>>
>>
>> At which level? What does that mean?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> For example, in the alternative physics world, Glak's psychology is
>> embodied in a completely different kind of biology, a biology that is not
>> compatible with our physics. Now by comp, Glak's mind can be uploaded to a
>> simulation running in our physics, but it is no longer clear which measure
>> is more probable. It seems possible to me that Glak's measure is greatest
>> in the alternative physics.
>>
>>
>> No problem with that. Then we will not fail him from his first person
>> perspective, because he will go back there in a nanosecond. And the poor
>> 3p-I staying here with us, well, he will suspect something too, soon or
>> later, for the preview reasons.
>>
>> This should be clearer, hopefully, when I translate "probability" in
>> arithmetic. If Glak is Löbian, then it has the same physics than us, and
>> that can be approached  by some modal logics related to arithmetical
>> self-reference.  It is hard for me to really decide if UDA is more simple
>> or more complex than AUDA, on the heart of the subject. You might tell me,
>> soon or later :)
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Terren
>>
>>
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>>
>>  http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>
>>
>>
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