On 16 Jan 2014, at 10:28, Quentin Anciaux wrote:




2014/1/16 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>

On 15 Jan 2014, at 21:02, Terren Suydam wrote:




On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
There is still FPI going on in the "rogue" simulation - the one where Glak emerges from an alternative-physics, as there are infinite continuations from Glak's state(s) in the alternative physics.

You cannot change the FPI, as it is the same for all machines. You are introducing a special physical continuation, which a priori does not make sense. Glak, in his own normal world obeys the same laws of physics than us, with a very different histories and geographies and biologies.


I'm asking you, for the moment, and in apparent contradiction with the math, to suspend the AUDA entailment that there is a single physics.

OK.



What I'm suggesting is that Glak's identity is constructed from something more than its characterization as a "mere" Lobian machine.

That is right, unless he smokes something, or get a strike on the head or something, and get highly amnesic.



There is a reason why I will suddenly never wake up to be Bruno Marchal.

Yes, and it is the same as the reason why you will see a pen falling on the grounds.



Even if we are both Lobian machines, there is a lot more that goes through our consciousness,

OK.



in order to arrive at the unique subjective experience and identity of Bruno or Terren, than mere Lobianity. I'm taking that further by hypothesizing the example of Glak, whose subjective experience and identity must be bound to a *particular* physics/biology,

A particular biology? No doubt.
A particular physics? This is what will lost his meaning. Of course, after the UDA, we have to redefine physics, which is the measure (or science trying to find that measure) on all (relative) computations, which: 1) emulates my body (including my personal memory, my "identity") below the substitution level
2) and winning the measure (= are the most probable).

Take an electron in some orbital. The orbital gives the map of those winning computation (in case our level is given by the uncertainty relation, to simplify).



in such a way that a being who self-identifies as Glak, with all of Glak's memories etc, could not possibly manifest in "our" physics.

What would that mean. If comp is correct, Glak can in principle be emulated in our neighborhood, although perhaps not in real time.



The sticking point of the AUDA for me has always been the identity of us, as human beings, with the idealized machines being interviewed. We are clearly Lobian, in some sense, but it also seems clear to me that our consciousness, our subjective experience, integrates its embodiment.

Yes. But all effective extension of PA is Löbian. AUDA applies to all Löbian machines, and that is why they will have the same physics (given by S4Grz1, or/and Z1*, or /and X1*). Anything NOT derivable in those mathematics will be defined as geographical. If Glak's electron are more heavy, it means that the mass of the electron depends on contingent aspect of the physical reality.

our identity is not physical, but historico-geographical. The physics is only what makes such historico-geographical apperance quite stable or relatively numerous. Physics is what multiply the comp histories; That is why Everett saves comp from solipsism.




Our (apparent) bodies are part of our identities, and through sensory interfaces shape our subjective experience... and as our bodies are part of physics,

Part. Only part. the contingent part.



then Glak's body in an alternative physics is likewise a part of Glak's identity,

Only what is above his substitution level, and the physics must be the same as us, as, under the substitution level, he can only see what result from the universal measure, which must exist by comp and the UD argument.


and the measure of the most probable continuations for Glak, I think, require that alternative body, which require an alternative physics.

By UDA, it seems to me rather clear that you can only use an alternate geography.


Well... what's left to physics then ?

OK. That's an excellent question. I will try to answer.



many world ?

Notably. And also indeterminacy, non-locality, non cloning, but also white noise and white rabbits, a priori.



because we can do virtual worlds with any physical laws we wish

I disagree. (see below)





and if comp is true we could make self aware inhabitant living in such virtual worlds...

OK with this.



so anything we can measure is a geographical fact and contingent...

That does not follow. That would have been the case if the hypostases would have collapsed into classical logic.
But I will try to explain this without invoking the hypostases.




seems to reduce physics not to math but to approximately nothing and leave what we call physical laws as geography... because there is no proof that the world we leave in is not such simulation,

No proof? Right. but it will not be a question of proof (which does not exist in experimental science, but of evidence).



so we cannot conclude anything from the weight of an electron we measure in our "universe".

Perhaps, perhaps not. We have to compare the mass of the electron we measure in our neighborhood, with the mass of the electron in the comp physics. If the comp physics is agnostic on the electron mass, it means that the mass of electron is not a law, but a contingent "geographical" fact. It means also that we can access in some ways place where the electron has a different mass.

Physics is redefined by the UDA into a measure calculus on computations, relative to a computational state.

In the virtual physics emulated to fail Klagg, Klagg, who believes in comp, can find the UD-Argument, like any Löbian machine, and extract that physics from arithmetic, compare it with his own experimental result, and if it does not fit, conclude that he is in a simulation (and be right).

The physical laws could have trivial, and the physical law physics would be geographical. That would be the case if all the modalities collapsed. Quine would have been right on modal logic. []p = p = <>p.

But incompleteness prevents this to happen for a very large class of rational belief in arithmetic, and RE-extensions. Making, as UDA suggest, a highly non trivial calculus. and the math, accepting some definitions (sure) shows that it has already a quantum nature.

I guess the precise Hamiltonian might be geographical, but that its symplectic symmetries and its quantum linear roots are physical, that is, here, arithmetical and justified in arithmetic. Klagg and all Löbian entities betting on comp can do that reasoning.

Note also that when I mention Klagg, it is the one we see, or observe or think about. Its a 3p Klagg (or 3-1p to be polite). From Klagg 1-p point of view, he might not "stay" in the simulation for a long time.

Physics is what gives the stable, persistent, differentiation laws of consciousness. Those emerge from arithmetic, and as long as comp is true, you can fail Löbian entities on them (in principle, given them infinite time, etc).

Bruno



Quentin



I'm wondering if there's room in the math for an accounting of consciousness that goes beyond Lobian machines in such a way as to allow for alternate physics.

Only if that alternate physics allows a non Turing emulable (at any level) brain. If Glak's brain is Turing emulable, it will be distributed in the UD*, like us, and if he look below its substitution level, he will have to use the same universal statistics, but of course relatively to its own comp state; which makes the difference of identity, geography, etc.

Bruno




 Terren




The reason I am still unsure of your answer here Bruno

It is a complex question.


is that I can imagine a scenario where Glak is implemented in an alternative physics - that is to say, knows herself as Glak and has memories of being Glak - but Glak is not able to be implemented in "our" physics.

At which level? What does that mean?




For example, in the alternative physics world, Glak's psychology is embodied in a completely different kind of biology, a biology that is not compatible with our physics. Now by comp, Glak's mind can be uploaded to a simulation running in our physics, but it is no longer clear which measure is more probable. It seems possible to me that Glak's measure is greatest in the alternative physics.

No problem with that. Then we will not fail him from his first person perspective, because he will go back there in a nanosecond. And the poor 3p-I staying here with us, well, he will suspect something too, soon or later, for the preview reasons.

This should be clearer, hopefully, when I translate "probability" in arithmetic. If Glak is Löbian, then it has the same physics than us, and that can be approached by some modal logics related to arithmetical self-reference. It is hard for me to really decide if UDA is more simple or more complex than AUDA, on the heart of the subject. You might tell me, soon or later :)

Bruno




Terren


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