2014/1/16 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> > > On 16 Jan 2014, at 10:28, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > > > 2014/1/16 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> > >> >> On 15 Jan 2014, at 21:02, Terren Suydam wrote: >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> There is still FPI going on in the "rogue" simulation - the one where >>> Glak emerges from an alternative-physics, as there are infinite >>> continuations from Glak's state(s) in the alternative physics. >>> >>> >>> You cannot change the FPI, as it is the same for all machines. You are >>> introducing a special physical continuation, which a priori does not make >>> sense. Glak, in his own normal world obeys the same laws of physics than >>> us, with a very different histories and geographies and biologies. >>> >>> >> I'm asking you, for the moment, and in apparent contradiction with the >> math, to suspend the AUDA entailment that there is a single physics. >> >> >> OK. >> >> >> >> What I'm suggesting is that Glak's identity is constructed from something >> more than its characterization as a "mere" Lobian machine. >> >> >> That is right, unless he smokes something, or get a strike on the head or >> something, and get highly amnesic. >> >> >> >> There is a reason why I will suddenly never wake up to be Bruno >> Marchal. >> >> >> Yes, and it is the same as the reason why you will see a pen falling on >> the grounds. >> >> >> >> Even if we are both Lobian machines, there is a lot more that goes >> through our consciousness, >> >> >> OK. >> >> >> >> in order to arrive at the unique subjective experience and identity of >> Bruno or Terren, than mere Lobianity. I'm taking that further by >> hypothesizing the example of Glak, whose subjective experience and identity >> must be bound to a *particular* physics/biology, >> >> >> A particular biology? No doubt. >> A particular physics? This is what will lost his meaning. Of course, >> after the UDA, we have to redefine physics, which is the measure (or >> science trying to find that measure) on all (relative) computations, which: >> 1) emulates my body (including my personal memory, my "identity") below >> the substitution level >> 2) and winning the measure (= are the most probable). >> >> Take an electron in some orbital. The orbital gives the map of those >> winning computation (in case our level is given by the uncertainty >> relation, to simplify). >> >> >> >> in such a way that a being who self-identifies as Glak, with all of >> Glak's memories etc, could not possibly manifest in "our" physics. >> >> >> What would that mean. If comp is correct, Glak can in principle be >> emulated in our neighborhood, although perhaps not in real time. >> >> >> >> The sticking point of the AUDA for me has always been the identity of us, >> as human beings, with the idealized machines being interviewed. We are >> clearly Lobian, in some sense, but it also seems clear to me that our >> consciousness, our subjective experience, integrates its embodiment. >> >> >> Yes. But all effective extension of PA is Löbian. AUDA applies to all >> Löbian machines, and that is why they will have the same physics (given by >> S4Grz1, or/and Z1*, or /and X1*). >> Anything NOT derivable in those mathematics will be defined as >> geographical. If Glak's electron are more heavy, it means that the mass of >> the electron depends on contingent aspect of the physical reality. >> >> our identity is not physical, but historico-geographical. The physics is >> only what makes such historico-geographical apperance quite stable or >> relatively numerous. Physics is what multiply the comp histories; That is >> why Everett saves comp from solipsism. >> >> >> >> >> Our (apparent) bodies are part of our identities, and through sensory >> interfaces shape our subjective experience... and as our bodies are part of >> physics, >> >> >> Part. Only part. the contingent part. >> >> >> >> then Glak's body in an alternative physics is likewise a part of Glak's >> identity, >> >> >> Only what is above his substitution level, and the physics must be the >> same as us, as, under the substitution level, he can only see what result >> from the universal measure, which must exist by comp and the UD argument. >> >> >> and the measure of the most probable continuations for Glak, I think, >> require that alternative body, which require an alternative physics. >> >> >> By UDA, it seems to me rather clear that you can only use an alternate >> geography. >> >> > Well... what's left to physics then ? > > > OK. That's an excellent question. I will try to answer. > > > > many world ? > > > Notably. And also indeterminacy, non-locality, non cloning, but also white > noise and white rabbits, a priori. > > > > because we can do virtual worlds with any physical laws we wish > > > I disagree. (see below) >
You can disagree, but it's a fact, we can make video game, so we > > > > > > and if comp is true we could make self aware inhabitant living in such > virtual worlds... > > > OK with this. > > > > so anything we can measure is a geographical fact and contingent... > > > That does not follow. That would have been the case if the hypostases > would have collapsed into classical logic. > But I will try to explain this without invoking the hypostases. > > > > > seems to reduce physics not to math but to approximately nothing and leave > what we call physical laws as geography... because there is no proof that > the world we leave in is not such simulation, > > > No proof? Right. but it will not be a question of proof (which does not > exist in experimental science, but of evidence). > > > > so we cannot conclude anything from the weight of an electron we measure > in our "universe". > > > Perhaps, perhaps not. We have to compare the mass of the electron we > measure in our neighborhood, with the mass of the electron in the comp > physics. > Ok if you had any ways to extract such specific things from comp... I'm not at all convince you can... and as we can construct any virtual world we want, I would like to know how you think you could extract that from integers + *. > If the comp physics is agnostic on the electron mass, > It should be or we should be magically prevented to do "video games" virtual world with self aware inhabitants. > it means that the mass of electron is not a law, but a contingent > "geographical" fact. It means also that we can access in some ways place > where the electron has a different mass. > Yes, perhaps a.... virtual world of our creation ? > > Physics is redefined by the UDA into a measure calculus on computations, > relative to a computational state. > I understand that... but nowhere this you put evidence that our shared reality wins that... By RSSA, I expect *because I'm already in that reality*, to stay in that reality... that doesn't means this reality is the most probable for any self aware creature. > > In the virtual physics emulated to fail Klagg, Klagg, who believes in > comp, can find the UD-Argument, like any Löbian machine, and extract that > physics from arithmetic, compare it with his own experimental result, and > if it does not fit, conclude that he is in a simulation (and be right). > I don't think such precise thing as electron mass could be extracted... and you provided no actual ways to do such things. > > The physical laws could have trivial, and the physical law physics would > be geographical. > It seems that's the more likely. > That would be the case if all the modalities collapsed. Quine would have > been right on modal logic. []p = p = <>p. > > But incompleteness prevents this to happen for a very large class of > rational belief in arithmetic, and RE-extensions. Making, as UDA suggest, a > highly non trivial calculus. and the math, accepting some definitions > (sure) shows that it has already a quantum nature. > It's vague, only "many world" and other things like it are "extracted".... > > I guess the precise Hamiltonian might be geographical, but that its > symplectic symmetries and its quantum linear roots are physical, that is, > here, arithmetical and justified in arithmetic. Klagg and all Löbian > entities betting on comp can do that reasoning. > > Note also that when I mention Klagg, it is the one we see, or observe or > think about. Its a 3p Klagg (or 3-1p to be polite). From Klagg 1-p point of > view, he might not "stay" in the simulation for a long time. > > Physics is what gives the stable, persistent, differentiation laws of > consciousness. > Sure... but the physics you live in days to days must be selected by RSSA, not ASSA. ASSA could only be of use before being born at most... Regards, Quentin > Those emerge from arithmetic, and as long as comp is true, you can fail > Löbian entities on them (in principle, given them infinite time, etc). > > Bruno > > > > Quentin > > >> >> >> I'm wondering if there's room in the math for an accounting of >> consciousness that goes beyond Lobian machines in such a way as to allow >> for alternate physics. >> >> >> Only if that alternate physics allows a non Turing emulable (at any >> level) brain. If Glak's brain is Turing emulable, it will be distributed in >> the UD*, like us, and if he look below its substitution level, he will have >> to use the same universal statistics, but of course relatively to its own >> comp state; which makes the difference of identity, geography, etc. >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> Terren >> >> >>> >>> >>> The reason I am still unsure of your answer here Bruno >>> >>> >>> It is a complex question. >>> >>> >>> is that I can imagine a scenario where Glak is implemented in an >>> alternative physics - that is to say, knows herself as Glak and has >>> memories of being Glak - but Glak is not able to be implemented in "our" >>> physics. >>> >>> >>> At which level? What does that mean? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> For example, in the alternative physics world, Glak's psychology is >>> embodied in a completely different kind of biology, a biology that is not >>> compatible with our physics. Now by comp, Glak's mind can be uploaded to a >>> simulation running in our physics, but it is no longer clear which measure >>> is more probable. It seems possible to me that Glak's measure is greatest >>> in the alternative physics. >>> >>> >>> No problem with that. Then we will not fail him from his first person >>> perspective, because he will go back there in a nanosecond. And the poor >>> 3p-I staying here with us, well, he will suspect something too, soon or >>> later, for the preview reasons. >>> >>> This should be clearer, hopefully, when I translate "probability" in >>> arithmetic. If Glak is Löbian, then it has the same physics than us, and >>> that can be approached by some modal logics related to arithmetical >>> self-reference. It is hard for me to really decide if UDA is more simple >>> or more complex than AUDA, on the heart of the subject. You might tell me, >>> soon or later :) >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Terren >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > > > -- > All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy > Batty/Rutger Hauer) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. 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