2014/1/16 Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com>

>
>
>
> 2014/1/16 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
>
>>
>> On 15 Jan 2014, at 21:02, Terren Suydam wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>>
>>>  There is still FPI going on in the "rogue" simulation - the one where
>>> Glak emerges from an alternative-physics, as there are infinite
>>> continuations from Glak's state(s) in the alternative physics.
>>>
>>>
>>> You cannot change the FPI, as it is the same for all machines. You are
>>> introducing a special physical continuation, which a priori does not make
>>> sense. Glak, in his own normal world obeys the same laws of physics than
>>> us, with a very different histories and geographies and biologies.
>>>
>>>
>> I'm asking you, for the moment, and in apparent contradiction with the
>> math, to suspend the AUDA entailment that there is a single physics.
>>
>>
>> OK.
>>
>>
>>
>> What I'm suggesting is that Glak's identity is constructed from something
>> more than its characterization as a "mere" Lobian machine.
>>
>>
>> That is right, unless he smokes something, or get a strike on the head or
>> something,  and get highly amnesic.
>>
>>
>>
>> There is a reason why I will suddenly never wake up to be Bruno Marchal.
>>
>>
>> Yes, and it is the same as the reason why you will see a pen falling on
>> the grounds.
>>
>>
>>
>> Even if we are both Lobian machines, there is a lot more that goes
>> through our consciousness,
>>
>>
>> OK.
>>
>>
>>
>> in order to arrive at the unique subjective experience and identity of
>> Bruno or Terren, than mere Lobianity. I'm taking that further by
>> hypothesizing the example of Glak, whose subjective experience and identity
>> must be bound to a *particular* physics/biology,
>>
>>
>> A particular biology? No doubt.
>> A particular physics? This is what will lost his meaning. Of course,
>> after the UDA, we have to redefine physics, which is the measure (or
>> science trying to find that measure) on all (relative) computations, which:
>> 1) emulates my body (including my personal memory, my "identity") below
>> the substitution level
>> 2) and winning the measure (= are the most probable).
>>
>> Take an electron in some orbital. The orbital gives the map of those
>> winning computation (in case our level is given by the uncertainty
>> relation, to simplify).
>>
>>
>>
>> in such a way that a being who self-identifies as Glak, with all of
>> Glak's memories etc, could not possibly manifest in "our" physics.
>>
>>
>> What would that mean. If comp is correct, Glak can in principle be
>> emulated in our neighborhood, although perhaps not in real time.
>>
>>
>>
>> The sticking point of the AUDA for me has always been the identity of us,
>> as human beings, with the idealized machines being interviewed. We are
>> clearly Lobian, in some sense, but it also seems clear to me that our
>> consciousness, our subjective experience, integrates its embodiment.
>>
>>
>> Yes. But all effective extension of PA is Löbian. AUDA applies to all
>> Löbian machines, and that is why they will have the same physics (given by
>> S4Grz1, or/and Z1*, or /and X1*).
>> Anything NOT derivable in those mathematics will be defined as
>> geographical. If Glak's electron are more heavy, it means that the mass of
>> the electron depends on contingent aspect of the physical reality.
>>
>> our identity is not physical, but historico-geographical. The physics is
>> only what makes such historico-geographical apperance quite stable or
>> relatively numerous. Physics is what multiply the comp histories; That is
>> why Everett saves comp from solipsism.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Our (apparent) bodies are part of our identities, and through sensory
>> interfaces shape our subjective experience... and as our bodies are part of
>> physics,
>>
>>
>> Part. Only part. the contingent part.
>>
>>
>>
>> then Glak's body in an alternative physics is likewise a part of Glak's
>> identity,
>>
>>
>> Only what is above his substitution level, and the physics must be the
>> same as us, as, under the substitution level, he can only see what result
>> from the universal measure, which must exist by comp and the UD argument.
>>
>>
>> and the measure of the most probable continuations for Glak, I think,
>> require that alternative body, which require an alternative physics.
>>
>>
>> By UDA, it seems to me rather clear that you can only use an alternate
>> geography.
>>
>>
> Well... what's left to physics then ? many world ? because we can do
> virtual worlds with any physical laws we whish and if comp is true we could
> make self aware inhabitant living in such virtual worlds... so anything we
> can measure is a geographical fact and contingent... seems to reduce
> physics not to math but to approximately nothing and leave what we call
> physical laws as geography... because there is no proof that the world we
> leave
>

s/leave/live/


>  in is not such simulation, so we cannot conclude anything from the weight
> of an electron we measure in our "universe".
>
> Quentin
>
>
>>
>>
>> I'm wondering if there's room in the math for an accounting of
>> consciousness that goes beyond Lobian machines in such a way as to allow
>> for alternate physics.
>>
>>
>> Only if that alternate physics allows a non Turing emulable (at any
>> level) brain. If Glak's brain is Turing emulable, it will be distributed in
>> the UD*, like us, and if he look below its substitution level, he will have
>> to use the same universal statistics, but of course relatively to its own
>> comp state; which makes the difference of identity, geography, etc.
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  Terren
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The reason I am still unsure of your answer here Bruno
>>>
>>>
>>> It is a complex question.
>>>
>>>
>>> is that I can imagine a scenario where Glak is implemented in an
>>> alternative physics - that is to say, knows herself as Glak and has
>>> memories of being Glak - but Glak is not able to be implemented in "our"
>>> physics.
>>>
>>>
>>> At which level? What does that mean?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For example, in the alternative physics world, Glak's psychology is
>>> embodied in a completely different kind of biology, a biology that is not
>>> compatible with our physics. Now by comp, Glak's mind can be uploaded to a
>>> simulation running in our physics, but it is no longer clear which measure
>>> is more probable. It seems possible to me that Glak's measure is greatest
>>> in the alternative physics.
>>>
>>>
>>> No problem with that. Then we will not fail him from his first person
>>> perspective, because he will go back there in a nanosecond. And the poor
>>> 3p-I staying here with us, well, he will suspect something too, soon or
>>> later, for the preview reasons.
>>>
>>> This should be clearer, hopefully, when I translate "probability" in
>>> arithmetic. If Glak is Löbian, then it has the same physics than us, and
>>> that can be approached  by some modal logics related to arithmetical
>>> self-reference.  It is hard for me to really decide if UDA is more simple
>>> or more complex than AUDA, on the heart of the subject. You might tell me,
>>> soon or later :)
>>>
>>> Bruno
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Terren
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>  http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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>>  http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy
> Batty/Rutger Hauer)
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-- 
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy
Batty/Rutger Hauer)

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