2014/1/16 Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> > > > > 2014/1/16 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> > >> >> On 16 Jan 2014, at 10:28, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >> >> >> >> >> 2014/1/16 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> >> >>> >>> On 15 Jan 2014, at 21:02, Terren Suydam wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>wrote: >>> >>>> There is still FPI going on in the "rogue" simulation - the one where >>>> Glak emerges from an alternative-physics, as there are infinite >>>> continuations from Glak's state(s) in the alternative physics. >>>> >>>> >>>> You cannot change the FPI, as it is the same for all machines. You are >>>> introducing a special physical continuation, which a priori does not make >>>> sense. Glak, in his own normal world obeys the same laws of physics than >>>> us, with a very different histories and geographies and biologies. >>>> >>>> >>> I'm asking you, for the moment, and in apparent contradiction with the >>> math, to suspend the AUDA entailment that there is a single physics. >>> >>> >>> OK. >>> >>> >>> >>> What I'm suggesting is that Glak's identity is constructed from >>> something more than its characterization as a "mere" Lobian machine. >>> >>> >>> That is right, unless he smokes something, or get a strike on the head >>> or something, and get highly amnesic. >>> >>> >>> >>> There is a reason why I will suddenly never wake up to be Bruno >>> Marchal. >>> >>> >>> Yes, and it is the same as the reason why you will see a pen falling on >>> the grounds. >>> >>> >>> >>> Even if we are both Lobian machines, there is a lot more that goes >>> through our consciousness, >>> >>> >>> OK. >>> >>> >>> >>> in order to arrive at the unique subjective experience and identity of >>> Bruno or Terren, than mere Lobianity. I'm taking that further by >>> hypothesizing the example of Glak, whose subjective experience and identity >>> must be bound to a *particular* physics/biology, >>> >>> >>> A particular biology? No doubt. >>> A particular physics? This is what will lost his meaning. Of course, >>> after the UDA, we have to redefine physics, which is the measure (or >>> science trying to find that measure) on all (relative) computations, which: >>> 1) emulates my body (including my personal memory, my "identity") below >>> the substitution level >>> 2) and winning the measure (= are the most probable). >>> >>> Take an electron in some orbital. The orbital gives the map of those >>> winning computation (in case our level is given by the uncertainty >>> relation, to simplify). >>> >>> >>> >>> in such a way that a being who self-identifies as Glak, with all of >>> Glak's memories etc, could not possibly manifest in "our" physics. >>> >>> >>> What would that mean. If comp is correct, Glak can in principle be >>> emulated in our neighborhood, although perhaps not in real time. >>> >>> >>> >>> The sticking point of the AUDA for me has always been the identity of >>> us, as human beings, with the idealized machines being interviewed. We are >>> clearly Lobian, in some sense, but it also seems clear to me that our >>> consciousness, our subjective experience, integrates its embodiment. >>> >>> >>> Yes. But all effective extension of PA is Löbian. AUDA applies to all >>> Löbian machines, and that is why they will have the same physics (given by >>> S4Grz1, or/and Z1*, or /and X1*). >>> Anything NOT derivable in those mathematics will be defined as >>> geographical. If Glak's electron are more heavy, it means that the mass of >>> the electron depends on contingent aspect of the physical reality. >>> >>> our identity is not physical, but historico-geographical. The physics is >>> only what makes such historico-geographical apperance quite stable or >>> relatively numerous. Physics is what multiply the comp histories; That is >>> why Everett saves comp from solipsism. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Our (apparent) bodies are part of our identities, and through sensory >>> interfaces shape our subjective experience... and as our bodies are part of >>> physics, >>> >>> >>> Part. Only part. the contingent part. >>> >>> >>> >>> then Glak's body in an alternative physics is likewise a part of Glak's >>> identity, >>> >>> >>> Only what is above his substitution level, and the physics must be the >>> same as us, as, under the substitution level, he can only see what result >>> from the universal measure, which must exist by comp and the UD argument. >>> >>> >>> and the measure of the most probable continuations for Glak, I think, >>> require that alternative body, which require an alternative physics. >>> >>> >>> By UDA, it seems to me rather clear that you can only use an alternate >>> geography. >>> >>> >> Well... what's left to physics then ? >> >> >> OK. That's an excellent question. I will try to answer. >> >> >> >> many world ? >> >> >> Notably. And also indeterminacy, non-locality, non cloning, but also >> white noise and white rabbits, a priori. >> >> >> >> because we can do virtual worlds with any physical laws we wish >> >> >> I disagree. (see below) >> > > You can disagree, but it's a fact, we can make video game, so we can make > any rules we want in the created virtual worlds, nothing prevent us to do > so. > > >> >> >> >> >> >> and if comp is true we could make self aware inhabitant living in such >> virtual worlds... >> >> >> OK with this. >> >> >> >> so anything we can measure is a geographical fact and contingent... >> >> >> That does not follow. That would have been the case if the hypostases >> would have collapsed into classical logic. >> But I will try to explain this without invoking the hypostases. >> >> >> >> >> seems to reduce physics not to math but to approximately nothing and >> leave what we call physical laws as geography... because there is no proof >> that the world we leave in is not such simulation, >> >> >> No proof? Right. but it will not be a question of proof (which does not >> exist in experimental science, but of evidence). >> >> >> >> so we cannot conclude anything from the weight of an electron we measure >> in our "universe". >> >> >> Perhaps, perhaps not. We have to compare the mass of the electron we >> measure in our neighborhood, with the mass of the electron in the comp >> physics. >> > > Ok if you had any ways to extract such specific things from comp... I'm > not at all convince you can... and as we can construct any virtual world we > want, I would like to know how you think you could extract that from > integers + *. > > >> If the comp physics is agnostic on the electron mass, >> > > It should be or we should be magically prevented to do "video games" > virtual world with self aware inhabitants. > > >> it means that the mass of electron is not a law, but a contingent >> "geographical" fact. It means also that we can access in some ways place >> where the electron has a different mass. >> > > Yes, perhaps a.... virtual world of our creation ? > > >> >> Physics is redefined by the UDA into a measure calculus on computations, >> relative to a computational state. >> > > I understand that... but nowhere this you put evidence that our shared > reality wins that... By RSSA, I expect *because I'm already in that > reality*, to stay in that reality... that doesn't means this reality is the > most probable for any self aware creature. > > >> >> In the virtual physics emulated to fail Klagg, Klagg, who believes in >> comp, can find the UD-Argument, like any Löbian machine, and extract that >> physics from arithmetic, compare it with his own experimental result, and >> if it does not fit, conclude that he is in a simulation (and be right). >> > > I don't think such precise thing as electron mass could be extracted... > and you provided no actual ways to do such things. > > >> >> The physical laws could have trivial, and the physical law physics would >> be geographical. >> > > It seems that's the more likely. > > >> That would be the case if all the modalities collapsed. Quine would have >> been right on modal logic. []p = p = <>p. >> >> But incompleteness prevents this to happen for a very large class of >> rational belief in arithmetic, and RE-extensions. Making, as UDA suggest, a >> highly non trivial calculus. and the math, accepting some definitions >> (sure) shows that it has already a quantum nature. >> > > It's vague, only "many world" and other things like it are "extracted".... > > >> >> I guess the precise Hamiltonian might be geographical, but that its >> symplectic symmetries and its quantum linear roots are physical, that is, >> here, arithmetical and justified in arithmetic. Klagg and all Löbian >> entities betting on comp can do that reasoning. >> >> Note also that when I mention Klagg, it is the one we see, or observe or >> think about. Its a 3p Klagg (or 3-1p to be polite). From Klagg 1-p point of >> view, he might not "stay" in the simulation for a long time. >> >> Physics is what gives the stable, persistent, differentiation laws of >> consciousness. >> > > Sure... but the physics you live in days to days must be selected by RSSA, > not ASSA. ASSA could only be of use before being born at most... > > Regards, > Quentin > > >> Those emerge from arithmetic, and as long as comp is true, you can fail >> Löbian entities on them (in principle, given them infinite time, etc). >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> Quentin >> >> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering if there's room in the math for an accounting of >>> consciousness that goes beyond Lobian machines in such a way as to allow >>> for alternate physics. >>> >>> >>> Only if that alternate physics allows a non Turing emulable (at any >>> level) brain. If Glak's brain is Turing emulable, it will be distributed in >>> the UD*, like us, and if he look below its substitution level, he will have >>> to use the same universal statistics, but of course relatively to its own >>> comp state; which makes the difference of identity, geography, etc. >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Terren >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The reason I am still unsure of your answer here Bruno >>>> >>>> >>>> It is a complex question. >>>> >>>> >>>> is that I can imagine a scenario where Glak is implemented in an >>>> alternative physics - that is to say, knows herself as Glak and has >>>> memories of being Glak - but Glak is not able to be implemented in "our" >>>> physics. >>>> >>>> >>>> At which level? What does that mean? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> For example, in the alternative physics world, Glak's psychology is >>>> embodied in a completely different kind of biology, a biology that is not >>>> compatible with our physics. Now by comp, Glak's mind can be uploaded to a >>>> simulation running in our physics, but it is no longer clear which measure >>>> is more probable. It seems possible to me that Glak's measure is greatest >>>> in the alternative physics. >>>> >>>> >>>> No problem with that. Then we will not fail him from his first person >>>> perspective, because he will go back there in a nanosecond. And the poor >>>> 3p-I staying here with us, well, he will suspect something too, soon or >>>> later, for the preview reasons. >>>> >>>> This should be clearer, hopefully, when I translate "probability" in >>>> arithmetic. If Glak is Löbian, then it has the same physics than us, and >>>> that can be approached by some modal logics related to arithmetical >>>> self-reference. It is hard for me to really decide if UDA is more simple >>>> or more complex than AUDA, on the heart of the subject. You might tell me, >>>> soon or later :) >>>> >>>> Bruno >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Terren >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>>> >>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > > > -- > All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy > Batty/Rutger Hauer) >
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