On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 12:46 AM, John Mikes <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Dear Samiya: I don't argue with you (like PGC) I ask a question going >> back further than this entire discussion: >> you wrote: >> >> *I could say that as I studied and observed the beauty and the patterns >> in nature, the finest details, I became convinced that there had to be a >> Creator behind it, but that also only vindicated my belief... I could think >> that may be since I was born in the faith, perhaps that's why it was >> natural, but I was asking questions, and I must admit, sometimes even >> fantasising how it would have been to be born in another faith or >> culture... I can say that the trials and experiences of life brought me >> closer to God, made me study the faith earnestly, and helped me discover >> the endless patience and my loving God through it all. Yet, I think, the >> latent belief was there all along, it was only my conscious self which took >> its own sweet time to realise and appreciate it! Whatever may the reason >> be, I'm glad that I'm a believer, and I lovingly worship my Creator.* >> >> A simple question: Do you have any idea why and how you 'formulated' in >> your conscious self the idea of a god? You mention "since I was born in the >> faith..." - nonsense, nobody has been born in any thinking decision, a >> newborn gradually develops ideas about the world (god, or no god) and a >> fetus has even less thoughts. You were born without faith, or ideas of god, >> just as people are born pagan before they get circumcised, or baptised. >> You must have absorbed the first faith-related ideas from your mother as >> a little ignorant infant when she prayed. The rest comes from here. Once >> you started believing in 'GOD' it is but a small step to believe that (s)he >> wrote the scripts and all the rest religion*S *include. With >> Inquisition, Jihad, reincarnation etc. >> > > I do not know if a fetus does or does not have any thoughts or ideas at > birth, maybe its as fearful of entering the world outside the womb as we > are of the hereafter. > Indeed, parents/family do have a keen impression on a child. Yes, I was > born in a conservative, practicing muslim family, hence my earliest > impressions must be from my mother. I do think my father's quest for truth > had a more lasting and formative impression on my thinking and beliefs. > When I was about ten, plus minus a couple of years, my father turned > religious. About the same time, someone tried to convert my father to > another faith. An elderly person, he started visiting us every weekend. > Initially, my father would just listen to him out of courtesy, but > eventually he realized that it is important to seek the truth. Hence, he > started researching the scriptures, including the Old Testament, the New > Testament, and the Quran, as well as other books. This opened up a whole > new world where the conservatives are fearful of treading, lest they lose > their way. Though it was much later that I would read them for myself, I > learnt to be open to various faiths and belief systems, while still a > child, by observing my father. > > >> And now the REAL question I want to ask: >> >> We (scientists? mainly) know about zillions of galaxies, zillions of >> starsystems in all of them, many planets with those z^z^n stars capable of >> supporting some *bio* of their own circumstances, many-many of them >> potentially leading to thinking units. Are we the ones selected from all >> those to be the sole "God's Children", or *all* of them are entitled to >> Her care and particular fitting rules? >> > > We are all God's creations, not God's children. > No, we are not 'selected from all those to be the sole "God's Children" ', > but, according to the Quran, we have been selected above a greater part of > creation. There exist other beings who are 'greater' than humans, such as > the 'exalted assembly' mentioned in the Quran (37:8 and 38:69) > All creation is, bio or non-bio, willing or unwilling, and in gratitude or > not, under God's care and rule. > >> >> But the question goes on: how about the animals? are they "God's >> children" as we are, or are they just fodder? and please, do not stop here: >> PLANTS have a similar DNA-based *bio* to ours and to most animals' so >> they may also claim to be God's Children? Some animals are hard to >> distinguish from humans, in certain characteristics. If we go into that: >> how about insects, and in-between life-forms? That would raise the >> originally counted (today) ~8 billion human 'souls' to z^z^z times over >> with life circumstances varying in uncanny varieties. Do they all have the >> same 1 God, or each kind a separate one? >> >> The same one God. If there were more than one, who would have ruled and > who would have taken a back seat. Two kings can't rule a realm. How can > there be more than one God? > > >> One word about reincarnation I mentioned it and you questioned back. >> I am no expert in it, but the little what I read from the Sanskrit faith, >> >> > > You are referring to the monotheistic Vedic faith or its later evolution > into the polytheistic Hindu faith? Both are written in Sanskrit language. > The Hindu faith includes the books of the Vedic faith. > > >> people can (re)incarnate in any 'living' creature-form and vice versa. So >> 'they' provide a wider variety for gathering merits-sins than during a >> single-term human life-span. >> > > Perhaps, but who knows how many reincarnations are allowed, and if this is > the last one? There is one verse in the Quran (23:99) to the effect that > the dying person will request to be sent back so that they can be > righteous, but there will be a barrier till the Day of Resurrection. Quran > (32:10) also says that they will request to be sent back, but it will be > denied, while Quran (6:28) states that even if they were returned, they > will do the same. Considering these verses together, faith seems to be > something much deeper and fundamental than what it appears to be. > > >> In my agnostic worldview, however, death means a decomposition of a >> *living?* complexity (person) with functioning 'chunks' surviving >> with/in other complexities (a hint to seers/dreamers with personal >> fragments showing up). Such idea - of course - opposes the judgemental-day >> recombination into the original person to be judged. But I never claimed my >> ideas to be correct. >> > > From what I gather from the Quran: > [a] a person dies when the angel of death removes the person's 'nafs' > (soul?) from the body (32:11) > [b] a person's fate/deeds are tied to his neck, which will be reproduced > as an open book on the Day of Resurrection (17:13) > [c] resurrection has been likened to seeds germinating when water falls on > barren land > I think the thing that is removed from the body, which causes death, > perhaps contains the original person data, the 'essence' I suppose, which > will be used for reconstruction. The body is simply a shell which has > served its purpose for this terrestrial, temporary abode, and returns to > the Earth to be re-cycled. > The western Abrahamic/christian/muslem concept of Resurrection is in direct contradiction to the eastern Sanskrit/hindu/buddhist concept of reincarnation, with as Kim put it, no end to the reincarnations. One concept is wrong and the other is right, or, as Moses taught us in the Oral Law, we must find the underlying principle that makes both concepts correct like Planck's thermodynamics.. Personally, contingent on no such 'principle uniting east and west' being found, I choose reincarnation and claim that the Quran is in error and should not be literally followed. Some Quranic concepts are good and some are not, depending on interpretation, as in QM. Richard > > >> So: when and how did a recognisable God first talk to you and/or disclose >> Herself? (I accept no "must be", "consequently" - or "obviously"). >> "In due time" is a threat. >> > > :) > > >> >> Please read carefully my text: I never denied the existence of God, did >> not place words in Her speaking, did not denigrate faith or followers. A >> student I am >> >> I appreciate that! > Samiya > > >> John Mikes >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 12:11 PM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 7:17 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 5:03 AM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 1:31 AM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I respect a possible god's creation more than thinking it somebody's >>>>>> job to convert people. This makes god's magnificence, as you call it, >>>>>> very >>>>>> small. I still have no idea of whether you see the blaspheme problem here >>>>>> or not. PGC >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We agree that it is blasphemy to attribute to God or make statements >>>>> on God's behalf what God hasn't stated. However, we also consider it >>>>> blasphemy to deny God or God's communication, pretending that God hasn't >>>>> sent any message, when God has indeed provided guidance for humans. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I don't know this and I challenge you, the Quran, indeed anybody, to >>>> provide convincing evidence. >>>> >>> >>> Okay, challenge the Quran... read it and see if it answers you with >>> convincing evidence. >>> >>> >>> >>>> Your claim in this regard, could be the very blasphemy you speak of. >>>> >>>> >>>>> You seem to think that the Message is for a particular culture, I >>>>> tell you its for all humanity from the Lord of the Worlds. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Cultures compete. War is our collective history. >>>> >>> >>> That's besides the point. >>> >>>> >>>> If I grow up in Jewish or Christian background, this preselects me to >>>> be more accessible to Jewish or Christian theology/books/interpretations >>>> than to Quran. >>>> >>>> Ok, the Quran is for all culture; but then the Bible says the same. You >>>> still avoid the question of "why the Quran above all other sacred books". >>>> >>> >>> Because it is the last in the series of revelations: the final >>> revelation, and because it has been protected from changes. We Muslims are >>> required to believe in all revelations, not just the Quran. Its an article >>> of faith. And also because the prior scriptures foretell the coming of >>> Prophet Muhammad. >>> >>> >>>> If this were a matter of personal religion, that would be private. But >>>> since you want factual accuracy, and to tie scientific/rational approach to >>>> Quran, the question is valid. Science, ability to doubt, question, and >>>> strive for accuracy in facts and descriptions belongs to all of us, no >>>> matter the religion. >>>> >>> >>> Agree >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> God doesn't need us or our service, it is we who need God and God's >>>>> guidance, since it is our future that depends on our beliefs and actions. >>>>> >>>> >>>> If God had wanted an army of slaves, he would not allow them to think >>>> and doubt. He could build an army of robot zombies, that he wouldn't even >>>> need to test. This "testing idea", and why a supreme being would engage in >>>> testing a perfect creation, makes no sense to me. >>>> >>> >>> Yes, its difficult to rationalize, if at all. But, once one is convinced >>> about the existence of God, and the scriptures being God's message, then to >>> accept things which our minds cannot understand is just a matter of faith >>> >>>> >>>> It seems it could be misused to frighten and control people. If a >>>> writing can be used to control people, to manipulate them dishonestly, to >>>> blaspheme god's name for violence, how perfect is this writing/book? >>>> Wouldn't a perfect writing stop this from happening? >>>> >>> >>> When student are taking an exam, does the professor intervene and >>> correct the mistakes? Life is an open-book exam, but it is the student's >>> job to study and use it properly. >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Just as we have no choice over our own self's birth and death, >>>>> similarly we have no choice in being resurrected for an immortal life. >>>>> >>>> >>>> How do you know God has stated this as "fact"? Yes, some people state >>>> this in some books. But perhaps these are statements that, in your words, >>>> constitute "blasphemy to attribute to God or make statements on God's >>>> behalf what God hasn't stated". Yes, it could be god's greatness, but it >>>> could also be people trying to control others through fear. >>>> >>> >>> We'll find out, all in good time >>> >>> Samiya >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> Our future well-being depends on the sincerity of our thoughts and >>>>> actions in the present! >>>>> >>>> >>>> On this we agree. PGC >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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