Dear John, In our last exchange, you had mentioned that a fetus does not know anything, and I had wondered whether it was so. Just now I came across this verse (Quran 16:79) English-Pickthall translation ______________________________
And Allah brought you forth from the wombs of your mothers knowing nothing, and gave you hearing and sight and hearts that haply ye might give thanks. Sent using alQuran. http://iphone.almubin.com/alQuran > On 02-Jul-2014, at 6:42 pm, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 12:46 AM, John Mikes <[email protected]> wrote: >> Dear Samiya: I don't argue with you (like PGC) I ask a question going back >> further than this entire discussion: >> you wrote: >> >> I could say that as I studied and observed the beauty and the patterns in >> nature, the finest details, I became convinced that there had to be a >> Creator behind it, but that also only vindicated my belief... I could think >> that may be since I was born in the faith, perhaps that's why it was >> natural, but I was asking questions, and I must admit, sometimes even >> fantasising how it would have been to be born in another faith or culture... >> I can say that the trials and experiences of life brought me closer to God, >> made me study the faith earnestly, and helped me discover the endless >> patience and my loving God through it all. Yet, I think, the latent belief >> was there all along, it was only my conscious self which took its own sweet >> time to realise and appreciate it! Whatever may the reason be, I'm glad that >> I'm a believer, and I lovingly worship my Creator. >> >> A simple question: Do you have any idea why and how you 'formulated' in your >> conscious self the idea of a god? You mention "since I was born in the >> faith..." - nonsense, nobody has been born in any thinking decision, a >> newborn gradually develops ideas about the world (god, or no god) and a >> fetus has even less thoughts. You were born without faith, or ideas of god, >> just as people are born pagan before they get circumcised, or baptised. >> You must have absorbed the first faith-related ideas from your mother as a >> little ignorant infant when she prayed. The rest comes from here. Once you >> started believing in 'GOD' it is but a small step to believe that (s)he >> wrote the scripts and all the rest religionS include. With Inquisition, >> Jihad, reincarnation etc. > > I do not know if a fetus does or does not have any thoughts or ideas at > birth, maybe its as fearful of entering the world outside the womb as we are > of the hereafter. > Indeed, parents/family do have a keen impression on a child. Yes, I was born > in a conservative, practicing muslim family, hence my earliest impressions > must be from my mother. I do think my father's quest for truth had a more > lasting and formative impression on my thinking and beliefs. When I was about > ten, plus minus a couple of years, my father turned religious. About the same > time, someone tried to convert my father to another faith. An elderly person, > he started visiting us every weekend. Initially, my father would just listen > to him out of courtesy, but eventually he realized that it is important to > seek the truth. Hence, he started researching the scriptures, including the > Old Testament, the New Testament, and the Quran, as well as other books. This > opened up a whole new world where the conservatives are fearful of treading, > lest they lose their way. Though it was much later that I would read them for > myself, I learnt to be open to various faiths and belief systems, while still > a child, by observing my father. > >> >> And now the REAL question I want to ask: >> >> We (scientists? mainly) know about zillions of galaxies, zillions of >> starsystems in all of them, many planets with those z^z^n stars capable of >> supporting some bio of their own circumstances, many-many of them >> potentially leading to thinking units. Are we the ones selected from all >> those to be the sole "God's Children", or all of them are entitled to Her >> care and particular fitting rules? > > We are all God's creations, not God's children. > No, we are not 'selected from all those to be the sole "God's Children" ', > but, according to the Quran, we have been selected above a greater part of > creation. There exist other beings who are 'greater' than humans, such as the > 'exalted assembly' mentioned in the Quran (37:8 and 38:69) > All creation is, bio or non-bio, willing or unwilling, and in gratitude or > not, under God's care and rule. >> >> But the question goes on: how about the animals? are they "God's children" >> as we are, or are they just fodder? and please, do not stop here: PLANTS >> have a similar DNA-based bio to ours and to most animals' so they may also >> claim to be God's Children? Some animals are hard to distinguish from >> humans, in certain characteristics. If we go into that: how about insects, >> and in-between life-forms? That would raise the originally counted (today) >> ~8 billion human 'souls' to z^z^z times over with life circumstances varying >> in uncanny varieties. Do they all have the same 1 God, or each kind a >> separate one? > The same one God. If there were more than one, who would have ruled and who > would have taken a back seat. Two kings can't rule a realm. How can there be > more than one God? > >> One word about reincarnation I mentioned it and you questioned back. >> I am no expert in it, but the little what I read from the Sanskrit faith, > > You are referring to the monotheistic Vedic faith or its later evolution into > the polytheistic Hindu faith? Both are written in Sanskrit language. The > Hindu faith includes the books of the Vedic faith. > >> people can (re)incarnate in any 'living' creature-form and vice versa. So >> 'they' provide a wider variety for gathering merits-sins than during a >> single-term human life-span. > > Perhaps, but who knows how many reincarnations are allowed, and if this is > the last one? There is one verse in the Quran (23:99) to the effect that the > dying person will request to be sent back so that they can be righteous, but > there will be a barrier till the Day of Resurrection. Quran (32:10) also > says that they will request to be sent back, but it will be denied, while > Quran (6:28) states that even if they were returned, they will do the same. > Considering these verses together, faith seems to be something much deeper > and fundamental than what it appears to be. > >> In my agnostic worldview, however, death means a decomposition of a living? >> complexity (person) with functioning 'chunks' surviving with/in other >> complexities (a hint to seers/dreamers with personal fragments showing up). >> Such idea - of course - opposes the judgemental-day recombination into the >> original person to be judged. But I never claimed my ideas to be correct. > > From what I gather from the Quran: > [a] a person dies when the angel of death removes the person's 'nafs' (soul?) > from the body (32:11) > [b] a person's fate/deeds are tied to his neck, which will be reproduced as > an open book on the Day of Resurrection (17:13) > [c] resurrection has been likened to seeds germinating when water falls on > barren land > I think the thing that is removed from the body, which causes death, perhaps > contains the original person data, the 'essence' I suppose, which will be > used for reconstruction. The body is simply a shell which has served its > purpose for this terrestrial, temporary abode, and returns to the Earth to be > re-cycled. > >> >> So: when and how did a recognisable God first talk to you and/or disclose >> Herself? (I accept no "must be", "consequently" - or "obviously"). >> "In due time" is a threat. > > :) > >> >> Please read carefully my text: I never denied the existence of God, did not >> place words in Her speaking, did not denigrate faith or followers. A student >> I am > I appreciate that! > Samiya > >> John Mikes >> >> >> >> >>> On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 12:11 PM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 7:17 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 5:03 AM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 1:31 AM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy >>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I respect a possible god's creation more than thinking it somebody's job >>>>>> to convert people. This makes god's magnificence, as you call it, very >>>>>> small. I still have no idea of whether you see the blaspheme problem >>>>>> here or not. PGC >>>>> >>>>> We agree that it is blasphemy to attribute to God or make statements on >>>>> God's behalf what God hasn't stated. However, we also consider it >>>>> blasphemy to deny God or God's communication, pretending that God hasn't >>>>> sent any message, when God has indeed provided guidance for humans. >>>> >>>> I don't know this and I challenge you, the Quran, indeed anybody, to >>>> provide convincing evidence. >>> >>> Okay, challenge the Quran... read it and see if it answers you with >>> convincing evidence. >>> >>> >>>> Your claim in this regard, could be the very blasphemy you speak of. >>>> >>>>> You seem to think that the Message is for a particular culture, I tell >>>>> you its for all humanity from the Lord of the Worlds. >>>> >>>> Cultures compete. War is our collective history. >>> >>> That's besides the point. >>>> >>>> If I grow up in Jewish or Christian background, this preselects me to be >>>> more accessible to Jewish or Christian theology/books/interpretations than >>>> to Quran. >>>> >>>> Ok, the Quran is for all culture; but then the Bible says the same. You >>>> still avoid the question of "why the Quran above all other sacred books". >>> >>> Because it is the last in the series of revelations: the final revelation, >>> and because it has been protected from changes. We Muslims are required to >>> believe in all revelations, not just the Quran. Its an article of faith. >>> And also because the prior scriptures foretell the coming of Prophet >>> Muhammad. >>> >>>> If this were a matter of personal religion, that would be private. But >>>> since you want factual accuracy, and to tie scientific/rational approach >>>> to Quran, the question is valid. Science, ability to doubt, question, and >>>> strive for accuracy in facts and descriptions belongs to all of us, no >>>> matter the religion. >>> >>> Agree >>> >>>> >>>>> God doesn't need us or our service, it is we who need God and God's >>>>> guidance, since it is our future that depends on our beliefs and actions. >>>> >>>> If God had wanted an army of slaves, he would not allow them to think and >>>> doubt. He could build an army of robot zombies, that he wouldn't even need >>>> to test. This "testing idea", and why a supreme being would engage in >>>> testing a perfect creation, makes no sense to me. >>> >>> Yes, its difficult to rationalize, if at all. But, once one is convinced >>> about the existence of God, and the scriptures being God's message, then to >>> accept things which our minds cannot understand is just a matter of faith >>>> >>>> It seems it could be misused to frighten and control people. If a writing >>>> can be used to control people, to manipulate them dishonestly, to >>>> blaspheme god's name for violence, how perfect is this writing/book? >>>> Wouldn't a perfect writing stop this from happening? >>> >>> When student are taking an exam, does the professor intervene and correct >>> the mistakes? Life is an open-book exam, but it is the student's job to >>> study and use it properly. >>>> >>>>> Just as we have no choice over our own self's birth and death, similarly >>>>> we have no choice in being resurrected for an immortal life. >>>> >>>> How do you know God has stated this as "fact"? Yes, some people state this >>>> in some books. But perhaps these are statements that, in your words, >>>> constitute "blasphemy to attribute to God or make statements on God's >>>> behalf what God hasn't stated". Yes, it could be god's greatness, but it >>>> could also be people trying to control others through fear. >>> >>> We'll find out, all in good time >>> >>> Samiya >>> >>>> >>>>> Our future well-being depends on the sincerity of our thoughts and >>>>> actions in the present! >>>> >>>> On this we agree. PGC >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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