Of course not, John. I am just as much a student as any of you, earnestly seeking to understand and evolve. Please keep discussing. Something I realized upon Liz' response was that the word translated as heart by Pickthall, has variously been translated as intelligence, feelings, and also mind I think. Perhaps, instinct could also be one aspect of the meaning. Arabic words carry a whole lot of meanings in one word as compared to English. Samiya
> On 14-Jul-2014, at 3:15 pm, John Mikes <[email protected]> wrote: > > Thank you, Samiya. I was afraid you wrote me off. > John > > >> On Sat, Jul 12, 2014 at 7:55 AM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> Dear John, >> In our last exchange, you had mentioned that a fetus does not know anything, >> and I had wondered whether it was so. Just now I came across this verse >> (Quran 16:79) >> English-Pickthall translation >> ______________________________ >> >> And Allah brought you forth from the wombs of your mothers knowing nothing, >> and gave you hearing and sight and hearts that haply ye might give thanks. >> >> Sent using alQuran. http://iphone.almubin.com/alQuran >> >>> On 02-Jul-2014, at 6:42 pm, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 12:46 AM, John Mikes <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> Dear Samiya: I don't argue with you (like PGC) I ask a question going back >>>> further than this entire discussion: >>>> you wrote: >>>> >>>> I could say that as I studied and observed the beauty and the patterns in >>>> nature, the finest details, I became convinced that there had to be a >>>> Creator behind it, but that also only vindicated my belief... I could >>>> think that may be since I was born in the faith, perhaps that's why it was >>>> natural, but I was asking questions, and I must admit, sometimes even >>>> fantasising how it would have been to be born in another faith or >>>> culture... I can say that the trials and experiences of life brought me >>>> closer to God, made me study the faith earnestly, and helped me discover >>>> the endless patience and my loving God through it all. Yet, I think, the >>>> latent belief was there all along, it was only my conscious self which >>>> took its own sweet time to realise and appreciate it! Whatever may the >>>> reason be, I'm glad that I'm a believer, and I lovingly worship my Creator. >>>> >>>> A simple question: Do you have any idea why and how you 'formulated' in >>>> your conscious self the idea of a god? You mention "since I was born in >>>> the faith..." - nonsense, nobody has been born in any thinking decision, a >>>> newborn gradually develops ideas about the world (god, or no god) and a >>>> fetus has even less thoughts. You were born without faith, or ideas of >>>> god, just as people are born pagan before they get circumcised, or >>>> baptised. >>>> You must have absorbed the first faith-related ideas from your mother as a >>>> little ignorant infant when she prayed. The rest comes from here. Once you >>>> started believing in 'GOD' it is but a small step to believe that (s)he >>>> wrote the scripts and all the rest religionS include. With Inquisition, >>>> Jihad, reincarnation etc. >>> >>> I do not know if a fetus does or does not have any thoughts or ideas at >>> birth, maybe its as fearful of entering the world outside the womb as we >>> are of the hereafter. >>> Indeed, parents/family do have a keen impression on a child. Yes, I was >>> born in a conservative, practicing muslim family, hence my earliest >>> impressions must be from my mother. I do think my father's quest for truth >>> had a more lasting and formative impression on my thinking and beliefs. >>> When I was about ten, plus minus a couple of years, my father turned >>> religious. About the same time, someone tried to convert my father to >>> another faith. An elderly person, he started visiting us every weekend. >>> Initially, my father would just listen to him out of courtesy, but >>> eventually he realized that it is important to seek the truth. Hence, he >>> started researching the scriptures, including the Old Testament, the New >>> Testament, and the Quran, as well as other books. This opened up a whole >>> new world where the conservatives are fearful of treading, lest they lose >>> their way. Though it was much later that I would read them for myself, I >>> learnt to be open to various faiths and belief systems, while still a >>> child, by observing my father. >>> >>>> >>>> And now the REAL question I want to ask: >>>> >>>> We (scientists? mainly) know about zillions of galaxies, zillions of >>>> starsystems in all of them, many planets with those z^z^n stars capable of >>>> supporting some bio of their own circumstances, many-many of them >>>> potentially leading to thinking units. Are we the ones selected from all >>>> those to be the sole "God's Children", or all of them are entitled to Her >>>> care and particular fitting rules? >>> >>> We are all God's creations, not God's children. >>> No, we are not 'selected from all those to be the sole "God's Children" ', >>> but, according to the Quran, we have been selected above a greater part of >>> creation. There exist other beings who are 'greater' than humans, such as >>> the 'exalted assembly' mentioned in the Quran (37:8 and 38:69) >>> All creation is, bio or non-bio, willing or unwilling, and in gratitude or >>> not, under God's care and rule. >>>> >>>> But the question goes on: how about the animals? are they "God's children" >>>> as we are, or are they just fodder? and please, do not stop here: PLANTS >>>> have a similar DNA-based bio to ours and to most animals' so they may also >>>> claim to be God's Children? Some animals are hard to distinguish from >>>> humans, in certain characteristics. If we go into that: how about insects, >>>> and in-between life-forms? That would raise the originally counted (today) >>>> ~8 billion human 'souls' to z^z^z times over with life circumstances >>>> varying in uncanny varieties. Do they all have the same 1 God, or each >>>> kind a separate one? >>> The same one God. If there were more than one, who would have ruled and who >>> would have taken a back seat. Two kings can't rule a realm. How can there >>> be more than one God? >>> >>>> One word about reincarnation I mentioned it and you questioned back. >>>> I am no expert in it, but the little what I read from the Sanskrit faith, >>> >>> You are referring to the monotheistic Vedic faith or its later evolution >>> into the polytheistic Hindu faith? Both are written in Sanskrit language. >>> The Hindu faith includes the books of the Vedic faith. >>> >>>> people can (re)incarnate in any 'living' creature-form and vice versa. So >>>> 'they' provide a wider variety for gathering merits-sins than during a >>>> single-term human life-span. >>> >>> Perhaps, but who knows how many reincarnations are allowed, and if this is >>> the last one? There is one verse in the Quran (23:99) to the effect that >>> the dying person will request to be sent back so that they can be >>> righteous, but there will be a barrier till the Day of Resurrection. Quran >>> (32:10) also says that they will request to be sent back, but it will be >>> denied, while Quran (6:28) states that even if they were returned, they >>> will do the same. Considering these verses together, faith seems to be >>> something much deeper and fundamental than what it appears to be. >>> >>>> In my agnostic worldview, however, death means a decomposition of a >>>> living? complexity (person) with functioning 'chunks' surviving with/in >>>> other complexities (a hint to seers/dreamers with personal fragments >>>> showing up). Such idea - of course - opposes the judgemental-day >>>> recombination into the original person to be judged. But I never claimed >>>> my ideas to be correct. >>> >>> From what I gather from the Quran: >>> [a] a person dies when the angel of death removes the person's 'nafs' >>> (soul?) from the body (32:11) >>> [b] a person's fate/deeds are tied to his neck, which will be reproduced as >>> an open book on the Day of Resurrection (17:13) >>> [c] resurrection has been likened to seeds germinating when water falls on >>> barren land >>> I think the thing that is removed from the body, which causes death, >>> perhaps contains the original person data, the 'essence' I suppose, which >>> will be used for reconstruction. The body is simply a shell which has >>> served its purpose for this terrestrial, temporary abode, and returns to >>> the Earth to be re-cycled. >>> >>>> >>>> So: when and how did a recognisable God first talk to you and/or disclose >>>> Herself? (I accept no "must be", "consequently" - or "obviously"). >>>> "In due time" is a threat. >>> >>> :) >>> >>>> >>>> Please read carefully my text: I never denied the existence of God, did >>>> not place words in Her speaking, did not denigrate faith or followers. A >>>> student I am >>> I appreciate that! >>> Samiya >>> >>>> John Mikes >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 12:11 PM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 7:17 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy >>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 5:03 AM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 1:31 AM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy >>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I respect a possible god's creation more than thinking it somebody's >>>>>>>> job to convert people. This makes god's magnificence, as you call it, >>>>>>>> very small. I still have no idea of whether you see the blaspheme >>>>>>>> problem here or not. PGC >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We agree that it is blasphemy to attribute to God or make statements on >>>>>>> God's behalf what God hasn't stated. However, we also consider it >>>>>>> blasphemy to deny God or God's communication, pretending that God >>>>>>> hasn't sent any message, when God has indeed provided guidance for >>>>>>> humans. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know this and I challenge you, the Quran, indeed anybody, to >>>>>> provide convincing evidence. >>>>> >>>>> Okay, challenge the Quran... read it and see if it answers you with >>>>> convincing evidence. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Your claim in this regard, could be the very blasphemy you speak of. >>>>>> >>>>>>> You seem to think that the Message is for a particular culture, I tell >>>>>>> you its for all humanity from the Lord of the Worlds. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cultures compete. War is our collective history. >>>>> >>>>> That's besides the point. >>>>>> >>>>>> If I grow up in Jewish or Christian background, this preselects me to be >>>>>> more accessible to Jewish or Christian theology/books/interpretations >>>>>> than to Quran. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ok, the Quran is for all culture; but then the Bible says the same. You >>>>>> still avoid the question of "why the Quran above all other sacred books". >>>>> >>>>> Because it is the last in the series of revelations: the final >>>>> revelation, and because it has been protected from changes. We Muslims >>>>> are required to believe in all revelations, not just the Quran. Its an >>>>> article of faith. And also because the prior scriptures foretell the >>>>> coming of Prophet Muhammad. >>>>> >>>>>> If this were a matter of personal religion, that would be private. But >>>>>> since you want factual accuracy, and to tie scientific/rational approach >>>>>> to Quran, the question is valid. Science, ability to doubt, question, >>>>>> and strive for accuracy in facts and descriptions belongs to all of us, >>>>>> no matter the religion. >>>>> >>>>> Agree >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> God doesn't need us or our service, it is we who need God and God's >>>>>>> guidance, since it is our future that depends on our beliefs and >>>>>>> actions. >>>>>> >>>>>> If God had wanted an army of slaves, he would not allow them to think >>>>>> and doubt. He could build an army of robot zombies, that he wouldn't >>>>>> even need to test. This "testing idea", and why a supreme being would >>>>>> engage in testing a perfect creation, makes no sense to me. >>>>> >>>>> Yes, its difficult to rationalize, if at all. But, once one is convinced >>>>> about the existence of God, and the scriptures being God's message, then >>>>> to accept things which our minds cannot understand is just a matter of >>>>> faith >>>>>> >>>>>> It seems it could be misused to frighten and control people. If a >>>>>> writing can be used to control people, to manipulate them dishonestly, >>>>>> to blaspheme god's name for violence, how perfect is this writing/book? >>>>>> Wouldn't a perfect writing stop this from happening? >>>>> >>>>> When student are taking an exam, does the professor intervene and correct >>>>> the mistakes? Life is an open-book exam, but it is the student's job to >>>>> study and use it properly. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Just as we have no choice over our own self's birth and death, >>>>>>> similarly we have no choice in being resurrected for an immortal life. >>>>>> >>>>>> How do you know God has stated this as "fact"? Yes, some people state >>>>>> this in some books. But perhaps these are statements that, in your >>>>>> words, constitute "blasphemy to attribute to God or make statements on >>>>>> God's behalf what God hasn't stated". Yes, it could be god's greatness, >>>>>> but it could also be people trying to control others through fear. >>>>> >>>>> We'll find out, all in good time >>>>> >>>>> Samiya >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Our future well-being depends on the sincerity of our thoughts and >>>>>>> actions in the present! >>>>>> >>>>>> On this we agree. PGC >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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