Thank you, Samiya. I was afraid you wrote me off. John
On Sat, Jul 12, 2014 at 7:55 AM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear John, > In our last exchange, you had mentioned that a fetus does not know > anything, and I had wondered whether it was so. Just now I came across this > verse (Quran 16:79) > > English-Pickthall translation > ______________________________ > > And Allah brought you forth from the wombs of your mothers knowing > nothing, and gave you hearing and sight and hearts that haply ye might give > thanks. > > Sent using alQuran. http://iphone.almubin.com/alQuran > On 02-Jul-2014, at 6:42 pm, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 12:46 AM, John Mikes <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Dear Samiya: I don't argue with you (like PGC) I ask a question going >> back further than this entire discussion: >> you wrote: >> >> *I could say that as I studied and observed the beauty and the patterns >> in nature, the finest details, I became convinced that there had to be a >> Creator behind it, but that also only vindicated my belief... I could think >> that may be since I was born in the faith, perhaps that's why it was >> natural, but I was asking questions, and I must admit, sometimes even >> fantasising how it would have been to be born in another faith or >> culture... I can say that the trials and experiences of life brought me >> closer to God, made me study the faith earnestly, and helped me discover >> the endless patience and my loving God through it all. Yet, I think, the >> latent belief was there all along, it was only my conscious self which took >> its own sweet time to realise and appreciate it! Whatever may the reason >> be, I'm glad that I'm a believer, and I lovingly worship my Creator.* >> >> A simple question: Do you have any idea why and how you 'formulated' in >> your conscious self the idea of a god? You mention "since I was born in the >> faith..." - nonsense, nobody has been born in any thinking decision, a >> newborn gradually develops ideas about the world (god, or no god) and a >> fetus has even less thoughts. You were born without faith, or ideas of god, >> just as people are born pagan before they get circumcised, or baptised. >> You must have absorbed the first faith-related ideas from your mother as >> a little ignorant infant when she prayed. The rest comes from here. Once >> you started believing in 'GOD' it is but a small step to believe that (s)he >> wrote the scripts and all the rest religion*S *include. With >> Inquisition, Jihad, reincarnation etc. >> > > I do not know if a fetus does or does not have any thoughts or ideas at > birth, maybe its as fearful of entering the world outside the womb as we > are of the hereafter. > Indeed, parents/family do have a keen impression on a child. Yes, I was > born in a conservative, practicing muslim family, hence my earliest > impressions must be from my mother. I do think my father's quest for truth > had a more lasting and formative impression on my thinking and beliefs. > When I was about ten, plus minus a couple of years, my father turned > religious. About the same time, someone tried to convert my father to > another faith. An elderly person, he started visiting us every weekend. > Initially, my father would just listen to him out of courtesy, but > eventually he realized that it is important to seek the truth. Hence, he > started researching the scriptures, including the Old Testament, the New > Testament, and the Quran, as well as other books. This opened up a whole > new world where the conservatives are fearful of treading, lest they lose > their way. Though it was much later that I would read them for myself, I > learnt to be open to various faiths and belief systems, while still a > child, by observing my father. > > >> And now the REAL question I want to ask: >> >> We (scientists? mainly) know about zillions of galaxies, zillions of >> starsystems in all of them, many planets with those z^z^n stars capable of >> supporting some *bio* of their own circumstances, many-many of them >> potentially leading to thinking units. Are we the ones selected from all >> those to be the sole "God's Children", or *all* of them are entitled to >> Her care and particular fitting rules? >> > > We are all God's creations, not God's children. > No, we are not 'selected from all those to be the sole "God's Children" ', > but, according to the Quran, we have been selected above a greater part of > creation. There exist other beings who are 'greater' than humans, such as > the 'exalted assembly' mentioned in the Quran (37:8 and 38:69) > All creation is, bio or non-bio, willing or unwilling, and in gratitude or > not, under God's care and rule. > >> >> But the question goes on: how about the animals? are they "God's >> children" as we are, or are they just fodder? and please, do not stop here: >> PLANTS have a similar DNA-based *bio* to ours and to most animals' so >> they may also claim to be God's Children? Some animals are hard to >> distinguish from humans, in certain characteristics. If we go into that: >> how about insects, and in-between life-forms? That would raise the >> originally counted (today) ~8 billion human 'souls' to z^z^z times over >> with life circumstances varying in uncanny varieties. Do they all have the >> same 1 God, or each kind a separate one? >> >> The same one God. If there were more than one, who would have ruled and > who would have taken a back seat. Two kings can't rule a realm. How can > there be more than one God? > > >> One word about reincarnation I mentioned it and you questioned back. >> I am no expert in it, but the little what I read from the Sanskrit faith, >> >> > > You are referring to the monotheistic Vedic faith or its later evolution > into the polytheistic Hindu faith? Both are written in Sanskrit language. > The Hindu faith includes the books of the Vedic faith. > > >> people can (re)incarnate in any 'living' creature-form and vice versa. So >> 'they' provide a wider variety for gathering merits-sins than during a >> single-term human life-span. >> > > Perhaps, but who knows how many reincarnations are allowed, and if this is > the last one? There is one verse in the Quran (23:99) to the effect that > the dying person will request to be sent back so that they can be > righteous, but there will be a barrier till the Day of Resurrection. Quran > (32:10) also says that they will request to be sent back, but it will be > denied, while Quran (6:28) states that even if they were returned, they > will do the same. Considering these verses together, faith seems to be > something much deeper and fundamental than what it appears to be. > > >> In my agnostic worldview, however, death means a decomposition of a >> *living?* complexity (person) with functioning 'chunks' surviving >> with/in other complexities (a hint to seers/dreamers with personal >> fragments showing up). Such idea - of course - opposes the judgemental-day >> recombination into the original person to be judged. But I never claimed my >> ideas to be correct. >> > > From what I gather from the Quran: > [a] a person dies when the angel of death removes the person's 'nafs' > (soul?) from the body (32:11) > [b] a person's fate/deeds are tied to his neck, which will be reproduced > as an open book on the Day of Resurrection (17:13) > [c] resurrection has been likened to seeds germinating when water falls on > barren land > I think the thing that is removed from the body, which causes death, > perhaps contains the original person data, the 'essence' I suppose, which > will be used for reconstruction. The body is simply a shell which has > served its purpose for this terrestrial, temporary abode, and returns to > the Earth to be re-cycled. > > >> So: when and how did a recognisable God first talk to you and/or disclose >> Herself? (I accept no "must be", "consequently" - or "obviously"). >> "In due time" is a threat. >> > > :) > > >> >> Please read carefully my text: I never denied the existence of God, did >> not place words in Her speaking, did not denigrate faith or followers. A >> student I am >> >> I appreciate that! > Samiya > > >> John Mikes >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 12:11 PM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 7:17 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 5:03 AM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 1:31 AM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I respect a possible god's creation more than thinking it somebody's >>>>>> job to convert people. This makes god's magnificence, as you call it, >>>>>> very >>>>>> small. I still have no idea of whether you see the blaspheme problem here >>>>>> or not. PGC >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We agree that it is blasphemy to attribute to God or make statements >>>>> on God's behalf what God hasn't stated. However, we also consider it >>>>> blasphemy to deny God or God's communication, pretending that God hasn't >>>>> sent any message, when God has indeed provided guidance for humans. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I don't know this and I challenge you, the Quran, indeed anybody, to >>>> provide convincing evidence. >>>> >>> >>> Okay, challenge the Quran... read it and see if it answers you with >>> convincing evidence. >>> >>> >>> >>>> Your claim in this regard, could be the very blasphemy you speak of. >>>> >>>> >>>>> You seem to think that the Message is for a particular culture, I >>>>> tell you its for all humanity from the Lord of the Worlds. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Cultures compete. War is our collective history. >>>> >>> >>> That's besides the point. >>> >>>> >>>> If I grow up in Jewish or Christian background, this preselects me to >>>> be more accessible to Jewish or Christian theology/books/interpretations >>>> than to Quran. >>>> >>>> Ok, the Quran is for all culture; but then the Bible says the same. You >>>> still avoid the question of "why the Quran above all other sacred books". >>>> >>> >>> Because it is the last in the series of revelations: the final >>> revelation, and because it has been protected from changes. We Muslims are >>> required to believe in all revelations, not just the Quran. Its an article >>> of faith. And also because the prior scriptures foretell the coming of >>> Prophet Muhammad. >>> >>> >>>> If this were a matter of personal religion, that would be private. But >>>> since you want factual accuracy, and to tie scientific/rational approach to >>>> Quran, the question is valid. Science, ability to doubt, question, and >>>> strive for accuracy in facts and descriptions belongs to all of us, no >>>> matter the religion. >>>> >>> >>> Agree >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> God doesn't need us or our service, it is we who need God and God's >>>>> guidance, since it is our future that depends on our beliefs and actions. >>>>> >>>> >>>> If God had wanted an army of slaves, he would not allow them to think >>>> and doubt. He could build an army of robot zombies, that he wouldn't even >>>> need to test. This "testing idea", and why a supreme being would engage in >>>> testing a perfect creation, makes no sense to me. >>>> >>> >>> Yes, its difficult to rationalize, if at all. But, once one is convinced >>> about the existence of God, and the scriptures being God's message, then to >>> accept things which our minds cannot understand is just a matter of faith >>> >>>> >>>> It seems it could be misused to frighten and control people. If a >>>> writing can be used to control people, to manipulate them dishonestly, to >>>> blaspheme god's name for violence, how perfect is this writing/book? >>>> Wouldn't a perfect writing stop this from happening? >>>> >>> >>> When student are taking an exam, does the professor intervene and >>> correct the mistakes? Life is an open-book exam, but it is the student's >>> job to study and use it properly. >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Just as we have no choice over our own self's birth and death, >>>>> similarly we have no choice in being resurrected for an immortal life. >>>>> >>>> >>>> How do you know God has stated this as "fact"? Yes, some people state >>>> this in some books. But perhaps these are statements that, in your words, >>>> constitute "blasphemy to attribute to God or make statements on God's >>>> behalf what God hasn't stated". Yes, it could be god's greatness, but it >>>> could also be people trying to control others through fear. >>>> >>> >>> We'll find out, all in good time >>> >>> Samiya >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> Our future well-being depends on the sincerity of our thoughts and >>>>> actions in the present! >>>>> >>>> >>>> On this we agree. PGC >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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