> On 31 Jan 2019, at 15:40, Philip Thrift <cloudver...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, January 31, 2019 at 6:28:14 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> On 30 Jan 2019, at 23:14, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com <javascript:>> 
>> wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 5:45:34 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>> As I try to solve the mind-body problem in the Mechanist frame, I cannot 
>>> use any ontological commitment other than the term of some arbitrary but 
>>> fixed universal system. 
>>> You assume some God, but that makes everything more complex, without 
>>> evidences why to do so, except naive physical realism, but that does not 
>>> work with Mechanism.
>>> Bruno
>>> There is no mind|body problem.
>>> Only a language|body problem.
>> With mechanism, we can identify body, words, numbers, and it is a pure third 
>> person notion, but mind has a first person part (indeed called the soul or 
>> the personal consciousness) which is pure 1p. The mind body problem consists 
>> in linking, without magic or ontological commitment those two things. The 
>> solution suggested by Theaetetus in Plato, has been refuted by Socrates (in 
>> Plato) but incompleteness refutes Socrates argument, and rehabilitates 
>> Theatetus’idea (the soul or the first person knower is the true-believer).
>> You can compare this with the semantic problem for language/body. To 
>> associate a semantic to a program or machine is related to the problem of 
>> associating a mind or a meaning to a body or to a code. The problem is 
>> virtually the same: once a theory/body is “rich enough”, its semantics 
>> escapes it and get multiple. Rich theories have many non isomorphic 
>> models/semantics, a bit like any computational state is supported by 
>> infinitely many computational situation, and some indeterminacy has to be 
>> taken into account.
>> Bruno
>>> https://codicalist.wordpress.com/2019/01/22/matter-gets-psyched/ 
>>> <https://codicalist.wordpress.com/2019/01/22/matter-gets-psyched/>
>>> - pt
>> Epicurus was born about the time Plato died. His "atomism" had atoms for 
>> consciousness (mind) that were mixed with the bodily atoms. Modern science 
>> rejected that concept, until the recent revival of (material) panpsychism 
>> has a updated version of it.
> Unfortunately this does not explain neither what the atoms and where they 
> comes from, nor what is consciousness and where it comes from. Mechanism 
> explains this entirely, up to the testability of all its consequences, which, 
> like every where in fundamental science, needs a perpetual doubt and constant 
> verification and re-verification. 
> If the theory S4Grz1, Z1*, X1* violate nature, then we will have some 
> evidence for no-mechanism, and thus for primitive matter. But assuming 
> primitive matter a priori seems like wanting to not understand the problem, 
> or hiding it under ontological commitment, like materialists do since 1500 
> years, if not right since Aristotle.
> Bruno
> On "where do atoms come from" I guess any physicist  you meet today has as 
> good (or bad) an answer as any, in their way of thinking, anyway.

They usually assume a primary physical reality. They make the physical universe 
into a (non personal god). But that explains nothing, even if very interesting 
in physics. Physicists are just NOT meta physicists, except very bad one the 
week-end or after retirement.

An explanation of X must not assume X, or, if it does, the recursion employed 
must be entirely justified too.

> On consciousness: 
> In a micropsychist* approach, the lowest-level psychical properties could 
> appear in the form of their own material subatomic entities, like quarks —  
> quirks? :) —  in current physical theories. Thus human-level consciousness is 
> "constituted" from lower-level material entities possessing lower-level 
> psychical features.

I don’t see an atom of explanation of consciousness here. That seems just like 
a more sophisticated way to hide the problem under the rug of microphysics, 
without addressing any of the question raised by the philosopher of mind or the 
cognitive scientist. If you dig in that direction, both matter and 
consciousness becomes only more obscure. 

> According to constitutive micropsychism, the smallest parts of my brain have 
> very basic forms of consciousness, and the consciousness of my brain as a 
> whole is in some sense made up from the consciousness of its parts. This is 
> the form of panpsychism that suffers most acutely from the combination 
> problem, which we will explore below. However, if it can be made sense of, 
> constitutive micropsychism promises an elegant and parsimonious view of 
> nature, with all the richness of nature accounted for in terms of facts at 
> the micro-level.

I am skeptical this can work, and of course, it is incompatible with Digital 
mechanism. This one explains consciousness in the most standard theological way 
(Theaetetus), and it explains matter in an entire new way, as number 
hallucination, which provable exist in arithmetic (once we bet the brain is 
Turing emulable).


> * [ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/panpsychism/ ]  
> - pt 
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