On 5/13/2019 4:50 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 10 May 2019, at 17:36, Jason Resch <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:



On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 1:02 AM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:



    On 5/9/2019 7:58 PM, Jason Resch wrote:


    On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 7:47 PM Bruce Kellett
    <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

        On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:18 AM Jason Resch
        <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

            On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 7:02 PM Bruce Kellett
            <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
            wrote:

                On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 9:36 AM Jason Resch
                <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
                wrote:


                    On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 3:09 PM 'Brent Meeker'
                    via Everything List
                    <[email protected]
                    <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:


                        Would it make a difference if they compute
                        the same function?


                    Not from the perspective of the function.  If
                    the computation is truly the same, there is no
                    way the software can determine it's hardware.

                        If so then you might as well say it would
                        make a difference if they were run on
                        different hardware.


                    From the outside it might seem different.  E.g.
                    instead of silicon some other element, foreign
                    to the chemistry of this universe, might make
                    for a more appropriate substrate.


                But the computations that comprise a conscious mind
                also, ipso facto, comprise the whole universe.


            I don't see how this follows. Is the computer on your
            desk the whole universe?  Is it not able to run an
            isolated computation which is not affected by what other
            parts of the universe are doing?


        The computer on my desk is not conscious!


    Maybe. I'm not sure we can conclude anything so easily.  But in
    any case it can illustrate the point that a computation need not
    be identical with the whole of the universe that contains it.

                So if the computations are the same, the conscious,
                AND THE UNIVERSE in which it resides, are the same.
                There can, therefore, be no "outside" from which the
                consciousnesses and universes are different.


            Couldn't what we take to be the physical universe be a
            simulation run in computer within a very different
            universe?  Clearly then the outside and inside view
            would be very different.


        But the theory is that the physical universe is a
        statistical construct over all computations running through
        your conscious self.


    You're jumping ahead to the final result of the computation, and
    continue to jump back and forth between different
    levels/definitions of universe. To clarify, let me enumerate
    stages of the argument such that we can be clear which one we
    are speaking of:

    1. Your brain can be replaced with a functionally equivalent
    physical component which implements its functions digitally
    (here we change nothing about our assumption of what the
    physical universe is)


    But what are its functions?  Do they include quantum level
    entanglements?  Dissipation of heat in erasure of information? 
    Does it have the ability to perceive and act in the world?


I don't know. This is a matter you would need to discuss with your doctor and take on some level of faith, perhaps from user reviews of others that have taken the same leap of faith before you.  I think Bruno has a result that this necessarily requires some act of faith, regardless of how far neuroscience advances.


    2. Following from #1, your consciousness can supervene on an
    appropriately programmed digital computer

    To what accuracy over what domain?  Does it matter whether the
    accuracy is 99% or 10%?


Let's say functional equivalence at 100%, the indecision is how much of the low-level to capture.  At the highest level you might have a lookup table and nothing below is the same (this was Ned Block's "Blockhead" argument against functionalism--he missed the notion of a substitution level), at a lower level you might simulate the neurons, again, 100% accurately, but you might miss some computational step that is important for your consciousness, and so on. For example, the steps your brain goes through when I ask you to add 2 and 3 is very different and results in very different conscious states than when I ask a pocket calculator to do the same.  If I substituted the part of your brain that does arithmetic with a pocket calculator, this would alter your conscious perception, even if it left you outwardly, functionally identical.

Exactly.  So how do you know it wouldn't do it without conscious perception at all, i.e. alter it to nothing?  And in fact isn't that what learning the multiplication table does, it eliminates computation for single digit numbers.  So that's the point of my question.  What do "functional equivalence" really mean.  Does it just mean "no noticeable difference in behavior", i.e. third person equivalence?  But then it seems the theory talks about "preserving consciousness", a first-person...what? perception that I'm me?  What perception could you have that told you your consciousness had changed or been lost?

Brent


    3. Due to Church Turing and #2, the underlying implementation of
    the computer (the programming language, the physical material,
    the laws of physics, the universe it happens to run in) are
    irrelevant, only the functional equivalence at the low-enough
    level (substitution level) is important to preserve
    consciousness (note that nothing to this point has changed
    anything about our assumption of reality, the ontology, etc.)
    4. Assuming arithmetical realism (which implies the existence of
    all computations) and #3, this implies all conscious states
    exist in arithmetic. (this makes redundant the assumption of
    physical universes that are distinct from physical universes,
    here we modify our ontological assumptions about what a physical
    universe is)

    It does not make redundant the assumption of physical universes
    because you have not defined the "functional equivalence" and how
    it relates to the world outside the brain.  The brain presumably
    is receiving and processing information and action in this
    world...otherwise its computations will be just arithmetic and
    have no referents.  It will be like the rock that computes
    everything.


I noticed a typo in what I wrote, I meant to say "this makes redundant the assumption of physical universes that are distinct from */arithmetical/* universes". Hopefully this addresses your point.


    5. Given #4, and the fact that an infinite number of
    indistinguishable programs implement your conscious state (e.g.
    different below your substitution level), and given that these
    programs may diverge in the future, then making predictions
    about future experiences

    Future experiences of...what?


Observers.

      You have relations among states of Turing machine or similar
    computer, and you claim they are conscious.  But you are helping
    yourself to a picture in which this computer is embedded in your
    head which is embedded in a physical world which gives meaning to
    the computations.


But with step #5 our head is embedded in an ensemble of similar but distinct universes.


    (the focus of physics) now becomes a statistical question
    regarding the distribution of unique programs existing below
    your substitution level.

    Statistics refers to samples from a probability distribution. 
    How is a probability distribution relevant to these programs


Given that teleportation is possible, there is a distribution of future states which any of those observers might become (where they could next find themselves).


    We have now reached the "reversal" (the laws of physics can be
    derived from the arithmetic concerning conscious programs which
    exist arithmetically, here we acknowledge that no observer
    exists in any single universe).

    So from the evolution of the view of what is meant by physical
    universe, we see there are at least 3 connotations:
    A) The first view where a universe is a causally isolated
    physical structure which may or may not contain observers
    B) The second view where a universe is a relatively stable
    (perhaps shared) observation in the mind of some observer(s)
    C) The third view where there exists a unified set of
    metaphysical laws, applicable to all observers, and in principle
    these laws can be derived from the arithmetic of self-reference,
    there is no longer the notion of an observer which belongs to a
    universe as each observer is supported by an infinity of
    similar, but distinct computations

    How similar do they have to be in order to be the same observer?


I believe this is undefinable according to Bruno, though I am not sure on what basis he reached this conclusion.


The first person similarity is obtained for those who are happy with the artificial brain. It is a personal matter that nobody can enclose in a theory.

It means run by the same relevant program, or by programs written at the right substitution level, which cannot be deduced from anything empirical. That is why, indeed, some leap of faith is required, and mechanism is theological.

IF Mechanism gives the right QM, similar means probably with the right energy of the each electrons, but the position of election in each energy orbital does not matter.

Bruno









    So when you say "the theory is that the physical universe is a
    statistical construct over all the computations running through
    your conscious self", you are correct that this is the logical
    end and conclusion of the theory of computationalism.  But when
    I said you could implement any consciousness in any universe
    where it is possible to build a Turing machine, I am talking
    about the "level A" type universe. (which I acknowledge to be
    redundant and eventually eliminated in the theory, but use this
    example for pedagogical purposes).

        So any external universe is part of that construct through
        your consciousness. So appealing to an external universe
        running a simulation does not help at all.

                Remember, consciousness is the sum over all
                computation that pass through that particular
                conscious state, so in this theory your AI, be it in
                silicon or the Game of Life, cannot be conscious,
                because it is a single computation.


            That all subjectively indistinguishable computations
            going through that state are a possibility means the
            consciousness cannot identify itself with any one
            particular thread of computation. In this sense that
            consciousness is not the same as one of the programs
            passing through that state. But to say the consciousness
            is not identical with one of the computations is
            different from saying that computation is not conscious.


        The trouble here is that that is an unproven assumption.


    It follows from there being a level of digital substitution (the
    computationalist assumption).  Let's say we can substitute your
    consciousness with a computer that emulates each atom in your
    neuron to a precision of 20 decimal places.  This means we could
    also substitute your consciousness with a computer that emulates
    each atom using a precision of 50 decimal places, or 100. Your
    consciousness would be no different. However, given enough time
    these simulations would eventually diverge.

    You are still helping yourself to an external physical world in
    which this artificial brain is embedded.  Suppose instead it is
    embedded in nothing, in a perfect void? Or suppose it is embedded
    in a world of Newtonian physics?   Or suppose it is embedded in a
    random world in which only things that are improbable in our
    world are realized?  Will it still function as your
    consciousness?  If so, what makes it "yours"?


That it is subjectively indistinguishable.  I think Saibal Mitra explain this in "Changing the past by forgetting" ( https://arxiv.org/abs/0902.3825 )


        If the future of any conscious moment depends on the
        statistics over the infinite number of computations running
        through that state, then a single computation gives a
        conscious moment that does not have a coherent future.


    I think we are in agreement here. The experiences of a single
    computation would/could eventually discover it has deviated from
    the normal expected statistics.

        Neither does a single computation exist in a coherent world,
        since physics, and the appearance of matter, is also the
        result of the statistics over the infinite number of
        computations.


    Once we replace our "level A" view of physics, with the
    realization in "level C" that there is no physical world,

    That isn't what "C" says.


There are still worlds, and there the appearance of a physical world, but the appearance falls out of arithmetic, rather than physics. (assuming computationalism and arithemtical realism).

    What this says, "The third view where there exists a unified set
    of metaphysical laws, applicable to all observers, and in
    principle these laws can be derived from the arithmetic of
    self-reference"  is that there is no difference between
    metaphysics and physics.  It is the dream Einstein that he
    discovers that the Creator had no choice.


The creator having no choice you get to with just arithmetical realism.

Jason

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