Thank you Curtis--the feeling is mutual.
You write:
"You have immersed yourself in many cultures and
POVs, so it doesn't surprise me that you "get me". I am not a master
of anything or enlightened in the way that MMY describes. It is the
ability to deeply understand many POVs from people from different
cultures, internal and external that is my concept of "enlightenment"
now. It is an intellectual choice of perspective about people. It
starts with an assumption that people have good reasons for acting and
thinking as they do. It just takes some time to uncover them."
My take on it all is that we are biological entities incarnate on a planet and
we have consciousness which is programmable into various mind states. We are
all programmed. It is unavoidable. Even if you grow up in the woods like the
wild boy of Aviron, you are programmed. In his case, the plants and animals
and natural phenomena he lived with formed his programming. There are
programming styles we share with others. We call it education, we call it
brainwashing, we call it religion, we call it democrat or republican---I don't
care what you call it, it's all programming. And we can't navigate in a world
without it. There are also group programs. We get different programming as
Americans than we get as Chinese.
I agree with Rory that death means the realization that all that programming is
just that: programming. But realizing that, I also realize that some
programming is destructive, while other kinds of programming is not. World
leaders also understand that there is such a thing as collective programming.
It begins when we salute the flag in Kindergarten.
curtisdeltablues <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Angela,
Thanks for sticking up for the idea that a person may leave TM and
there may not be something terribly wrong with him! Telling people
that I chose to leave TM voluntarily after having good experiences
with it and enjoying it for years is an interesting mirror on people.
I learn a lot about a person depending on how they react.
Of course when I was into TM if a person left I would go through the
same predictable moves of making the person wrong somehow. I think it
is a natural reaction that comes when we hear someone has cancer or
something terrible happens. We want to distance ourself from this
person so we can feel that this tragedy wouldn't happen to us,and that
often includes blaming the person a bit. "Oh that person was just
too(fill in the blank)".
One nice thing about posting here is that I have found a few people
still on a spiritual path who "get" my decision. Likewise I have
spent some time rehabbing my own perspective on people who continue on
spiritual paths. I am just as prone to the "make wrong" move about
other people's decisions. Getting to know someone as a more complete
person is part of the journey for me. It involves not seeing them in a
one dimensional way, as a "spiritual" person, but just as a version of
folks like me!
The specific point that Shemp and Richard bring up that somehow I
wasn't doing the practice properly or had gotten too caught up in the
guru thing is one of the oddest versions of "make wrong". It involves
a few hidden assumptions about the program that are very odd. Despite
my reporting that I loved the TM experience, trying to make it seem as
if I could have rounded for years incorrectly is strange.
What they don't get is that the experiences we have in meditation and
the states they produce are very tied to a set of beliefs and
assumptions about the value of those experiences. Especially if you
are facile with language and use a lot of Sanskrit terms to describe
your experiences, you can get very locked in to a POV. It is
inconceivable to think in different terms, underneath the assumptions
contained in the language. Once you accept "enlightenment" as a
given, you are already hip deep. But I no longer accept the concept
of enlightenment as a given. And I don't accept that the experiences
of different ways of functioning caused by meditation is positive for
everyone.
The idea that the fulltiime people were doing something wrong is
common for parttime people in the movement. Also the idea among
fulltime people that parttimers are not moving as fast is pretty
entrenched. The bazaar idea that people following MMY's instructions
directly are off the program is an odd notion that is unshakable for
Shemp. I and others have hit my head against this wall more than once.
But here is my truth about how I left. I enjoyed TM and its
experiences until the day I decided that it no longer served me.
After I left I spent some time revealing to the press that the
brochure version of TM practice was not the whole story, and that the
movement was deceptive about it's inner beliefs. It seemed important
to me that people be allowed to make informed decisions about TM
before getting involved. This basically alienated all my TM friends
which I totally understand. The Internet provides such a complete
understanding for those who seek it, that I no longer felt that I had
a contribution to make concerning TM. With TM's entry price so high it
is a moot point now. People getting into TM now know or should know
all they need.
Posting on this board has been a personal mission to re-connect with
people on a spiritual path. Of course my name is and probably should
be "mud" for TM fundies, but they don't post here. Now I feel
positive about people making different choices than I am concerning
spirituality and this has been my growth. I respect people who
continue to research their consciousness with techniques and think it
is important for humans to pursue, but not for me.
So Kumbaya Angela. You have immersed yourself in many cultures and
POVs, so it doesn't surprise me that you "get me". I am not a master
of anything or enlightened in the way that MMY describes. It is the
ability to deeply understand many POVs from people from different
cultures, internal and external that is my concept of "enlightenment"
now. It is an intellectual choice of perspective about people. It
starts with an assumption that people have good reasons for acting and
thinking as they do. It just takes some time to uncover them.
Thanks for the kind intentions.
Richard (meaning well I assume):
You've
> lost the abilty and the opportunity to burn up your karmic
> accumulations. Your only hope now is to find a true
> spiritual teacher.
You gotta love it!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela Mailander
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Richard, you talk like a true believer on the basis of dogma. You
cannot know what Deltablues state of consciousness is through knowing
him via emails. I don't remember who it was that claimed yoga was
exclusively Indian, and my question was is the realization that
Purusha is distinct from Prakriti tantamount to the realization that
"There is a void outside existence which, if entered into, englobes
itself and becomes a womb?" The obvious answer is, "yes." That
statement comes from William Blake who practiced no technique and had
no indoctrination on consciousness etc. He lived in the late
eighteenth century in an intellectual milieu that had invented
empiricism. And yet he understood states of consciousness to the
point of clear descriptions of epistemology in each of those
states--which he could not have done without experience.
>
> Any of us can talk a good shtick about enlightenment. Anyone can
learn that language. Delta refuses to talk that way, but that doesn't
mean he is doomed unless he gets a spiritual master. He may be a
master. Remember the Gita's answer to the question about how does an
enlightened man sit, talk, and walk? The answer was there's no way
you can recognize him on the basis of these things. a
>
> "Richard J. Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Curtis wrote:
> > When I stopped meditating about 19 years ago it felt
> > a little weird for a few days and I sometimes had to
> > take an afternoon nap since I was used to resting then.
> > But in less than a week I felt great and have never
> > desired the state again. I found that dissociation
> > caused me to be a little detached from my feelings in
> > a way that muffled them a bit. I enjoy the clarity non
> > meditation has brought.
> >
> You stopped TM when you lost your innocence and began
> the practice of Guru Yoga, as pointed out by Mr. McGurk.
> This probably happened about the time that you decided
> to become a teacher of TM. In reality, you have never
> stopped meditation, for the simple fact that you never
> began meditation.
>
> In fact, you were born into a state of meditation, but
> as you grew older you became dissassoiated with your
> real state - your mind became slowly identified with the
> material world of name and form, until it became totally
> overshadowed by your material nature.
>
> When you started TM you probably transcended for a few
> moments - this would be called a flashback to your
> previous state of divine innocence - but then you stopped
> transcending and somehow became involved in Guru Yoga,
> following the Marshy. Your spiritual life would have
> probably evolved over time if you had remained in that
> innocent state. Instead you must have developed a hankering
> for intellectual knowledge which then began to overshadow
> your enlightened state.
>
> With time you became more and more enmeshed in the
> material world, thus losing your contact with the
> transcendent. Now you only see through a glass darkly;
> your previous clear state has now become almost lost
> due to your being caught up in the material world. You've
> lost the abilty and the opportunity to burn up your karmic
> accumulations. Your only hope now is to find a true
> spiritual teacher.
>
>
>
>
>
> Send instant messages to your online friends
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>
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