Hi Ron/DMB And when we come to describe and divide this reality there are many ways to do so. Subject/object is one way and has some uses, its latches onto certain qualities of our experience, there are many others to be dscribed. There are qualities that are more pertinent than those described by the subject-object division. MOQ notices that all our experiences are based in values. What we experience/notice we experience as having a value from the horrific through to bliss. And MOQ notices that the flux and change dominate our experience, yet there are also some patterns and order to notice and desribe. It is a long way down the road of conceptual evolution that we might suggest such generalities as subjects and objects. People and stuff must get noticed a long time before such conceptual peculiarities as subjects and objects. And when you look hard, SOM causes many conceptual problems but has been very useful for dominance over nature and is now costing us dearly. If you can't grasp this via Pirsig, try James, or Dewey, or even Heidegger.
Regards David M ----- Original Message ----- From: "david buchanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 4:05 PM Subject: Re: [MD] subject / object logic > Ron Kulp said: > I feel there is an area MOQ is overlooking by concentration on value > alone. > I feel perhaps Pirsig takes it to a subjective tilt by positing that value > comes before subjects and objects and subjects and objects can be dropped > or > seperated from value. (Ron later added) ...Which then, of course, projects > the universe as being a moral universe because now you are in the realm of > the subjective without knowing it... > > dmb says: > As I see it, here you're making some kind of mistake in logic and then > projecting that mistake onto Pirsig. I mean, the charge of a "subjective > tilt" defies Pirsig's central point in asserting a "pre-intellectual > awareness". The most important characteristic of this "pure experience", > as > James calls it, is that it is prior to the distinction between self and > world, between subject and object. It is also called an undivided > experience > because there are as yet no conceptual distinctions. Northrop's phrase > fits > for the same reason; the undifferentiated aesthetic continuum. And because > this primary empirical reality lacks all divisions, we can't rightly call > it > subjective or objective. It is an experience which precedes that > distinction. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Messenger Café - open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities served > daily. > Visit now. http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_AugHMtagline > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
