Ron,
This is an interesting take on moq's role, and
how the moq is freeing itself from an intellectual
(S/O) culture. I wouldn't say the moq is the first to
do so, due to Daoism and Zen. S/O did latch strong
enough to pattern western science. What's more
strongly missing is the dynamic aspect of reality in
western culture. Creativity is dying. Most people
have a boss that tells them what to do all the way up
to the government. So many soon to be presidents have
discussed changing Washington, that has been the theme
for decades, but Washington bureaucracy... the weight
of not only mercantilism, but industrialism. Get
everybody making the same cup of coffee, and the
perfect cup can be made - no personality, it's
disappearing, going with the crowd, popularity, these
are peeked not in high school, but beyond. Why are
the drop-outs killing popular kids? Why are the
outsiders kept the outsiders and mainstream pop
culture is kept intake for all it's worth. On and on
and on...
thanks, good post.
SA
> Ron previously;
> As Plato did, Pirsig gives a general framework as a
> guide to making
> distinctions outside of cultural preconceptions.
> Pirsigs is based on
> evolutionary Value, The 4 levels.
>
> Ron:
> I wanted to clarify that Plato's SOM has become a
> cultural conception
> And this further muddies the issue of intellect.
> Perfect forms and
> absolutes
> And The Laws of excluded middles has been interwoven
> into the fabric of
> our culture. Today's intellectual is challenged to
> think outside of even
> this
> Paradigm because even this, the laws of mathematics
> and formal logic
> Which began as convenient methods of attaining a
> general level of
> certainty
> Out side the bounds of cultural preconception, gives
> rise to the
> cultural dogma of universal truths. In fact, it
> solidified and
> rationalized cultural
> Definitions of truth and continues to struggle with
> the social level to
> the
> Point of concentric extremes of it's own logic.
> Since SOM has become
> Both intellect and cultural the MoQ is the renewed
> struggle to free
> intellect from social dominance. For the first time
> intellect is faced
> With freeing itself from an intellectually based
> culture.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Ron Kulp
> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 1:43 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [MD] Knowledge as MOQ's intellect
>
> Steve,
> It is my understanding that MoQ is an
> Intellectual awareness. It is the realization of the
> function
> Of SOM, it's limits within the culture and the
> problems
> That arise from it. MoQ makes the distinction
> between SOM and
> Intellect as a whole, where previously they were
> viewed as one in the
> same.
>
> I agree with Bo insofar as its direct application to
> our SOM based
> Culture.
>
>
> MoQ is an active inquiry, not a metaphysical
> absolute or truth. It is
> part
> Of the intellectual level but it makes the
> distinction between culture
> and intellection as a general concept.
>
> The rather good point that is made by Platt is that
> culturally bound
> intellectuals are not actually making intellectual
> distinctions rather
> As William James put it, are merely "rearranging
> their prejudices"
> within
> Cultural parameters. The more intellectual
> intellectuals are those who
> transcend The Cultural and make distinctions based
> on wider criteria.
> As Plato did, Pirsig gives a general framework as a
> guide to making
> distinctions outside of cultural preconceptions.
> Pirsigs is based on
> evolutionary Value, The 4 levels.
> Let's note that evolutionary value is neither a
> constant nor a truth and
> should not be associated with culturally derived
> understandings
> Of evolutionary merits of dominance or superiority
> because evolutionary
> Preference is not solely met in the socio/intellect
> level struggle.
> Dynamic Quality dictates evolutionary value, and as
> krimels mantra
> dictates "shit happens".
>
> Acceptable and unacceptable fall within cultural
> boundaries, they define
> a culture. Because we as individuals are defined by
> our culture we are
> also defined by our morals. Understanding this key
> point is
> understanding
> The key intellectual stumbling block of SOM in it's
> relation to
> attaining
> Greater degrees of Objective certainty vs. utilizing
> this knowledge to
> Better guide cultural understanding in regard to the
> importance of moral
> Definitions of acceptability.
>
> Pirsig and Plato offer convenient frameworks to
> transcend cultural
> preference. When understood in this way, they should
> be used in
> conjunction
> As forms of trans-cultural thinking.
> This is the intellectual level.
>
> This frees' intellect to honor moral standards for
> what they are without
> Falling to the cultural dogma of a universal truth
> of good.
>
> -Ron
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Steven
> Peterson
> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 10:38 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [MD] Knowledge as MOQ's intellect
>
> Hi Platt,
>
> Pirsig said the MOQ is an intellectual pattern and
> therefore part of the
> fourth level and he never described a fifth level.
> I agree with him. I can't see the MOQ as part of a
> fifth level because a
> fifth level would have to be categorically different
> from the fourth in
> the way that a living being is different from an
> inanimate object or a
> city is different from a living being or an essay is
> different from a
> city. I don't see this sort of difference in kind
> between the MOQ and
> some version of SOM. They are both still
> philosophies.
>
> Reagrds,
> Steve
>
>
>
> On Monday, December 10, 2007, at 05:53AM,
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Quoting Steven Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >
> >> Hi Platt and Bo,
> >>
> >> Are you two saying that the 4th level is SOM? If
> so, is the OQ a
> fifth level?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Steve
> >
> >Hi Steve,
> >
> >I can't speak for Bo but I think the 4th level is
> SOM. The MOQ stands
> at the
> >lower end of the 5th or art level because values
> are closely associated
> with
> >aesthetics. To reflect that association, I think
> Pirsig chose the art
> form of
> >the novel to present his metaphysics.
> >
> >IMO,
> >Platt
>
=== message truncated ===
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