Arlo and Platt I agree with you fully Arlo. And the most important thing here is that it was individuals that got together to change what they perceived as being of Low Quality. And these "Big Programs" that Pirsig talks about here needn't be something that leaves the individual out, but rather it can be for individuals, by individuals. Platts (and Pirsigs) generation may have been to scared of the CCCP and influenced by the Cold War-era to see that it doesn't need to be this way, black or white. It's understandable that you think that way, but it really isn't true. Because I will say, and many, many more with me, that even though Individuality is of the utmost importance, a system that is built by individuals to make sure that every individual gets a fair chance is the more sensible choice. And it isn't in that much of a conflict really. It needs to be understood that it isn't "Either/Or" it almost never is. What we have been trying to build here for the last 60 or so years is a system that is both open to free individual enterprises, but that doesn't lead to a social misery that would in the end hurt everybody by creating an unsafe and inhumane environment to live in, like the one Arlo describes [that was indeed, reality]. It's not an easy thing to do, but it can be done.
> [Chris to Khaled] > As for the answer I don't know, but I do believe balance is the key. > > [Arlo] > As do I. What you see often here from some is the classic "Good v. > Evil" battle continually recast, sometimes over the > "individual/collective" question, and here over the DQ/SQ question. > That is we are told that DQ is "freedom and glory and goodness" while > SQ is "stifling evil and suffocation and the cause of all suffering". > DQ becomes, as you suggest, simply another word for "God", and SQ > becomes of course "Satan". > > I don't think Pirsig sees it this way. I think DQ and SQ are cast > together like the eternal Yin-Yang, inseparable, mutally dependent. > > Pirsig himself says as much. "Without Dynamic Quality the organism > cannot grow. Without static quality the organism cannot last. Both > are needed." (LILA) > > The goal would seem to be to create a system that while open to the > greatest amount of DQ possible, the system reflects the static > latching needed in order to sustain the Good things so achieved. > > There is also a myth here that the "free market" was on the verge of > creating a veritable Utopia when big, bad guvermint came in an ruined > things. There is a reason why there was a social mandate to reign in > the "free market", and that was the low quality of life experienced > by the great majority following the "unregulated success" of the turn > of the century. The market had created enormous wealth for Carnegies > and Pullmans and the barons of industry, but the Chicago River was > turned into a festering swamp of coagulated blood and rotting flesh. > Miner's wives saw their husband's bodies dumped by the door of their > shack and told to move out. Children were working 16 hour days in > dangerous jobs, and earning less each week than the cost of a loaf of > bread. Even moving into the 20the century, business dumped toxic > chemicals without concern for any local populations, and when they > were indicted here they simply began dumping their toxic chemicals > wantonly across the border. In West Virginia, a mining company > knowingly sent miners into silica-laden mines without the proper > protection (too costly), and reaped huge profits while the miners > choked to death on their own blood. Prior to public education, poor > children had no chance of ever going to a school, education was > reserved for the wealthy. > > It was these conditions that moved people to demand regulation, it > was not imposed by some evil outside agency, it was demanded by the > people after witnessing the realities of an "unregulated market". > Wage laws, child labor laws, workplace safety laws, pollution > regulations, disposal regulations, all these were the result of > people coming together and saying that our vision must be on greater > concerns than simply "wealth production". But they did not do away > with the "free market", they did not abolish private enterprise and > entrepreneurship, rather they moved towards balance, and it is that > balance which has led to the material quality of life in the West. >Platt: > If you guy are looking for an MOQ culture what better recommendation > can you find other than from the creator of the MOQ himself? From ZMM: > > "My personal feeling is that this is how any further improvement of the > world will be done: by individuals making Quality decisions and that's > all. > God, I don't want to have any more enthusiasm for big programs full of > social planning for big masses of people that leave individual Quality > out. > These can be left alone for a while. There's a place for them but they've > got to be built on a foundation of Quality within the individuals > involved. > We've had that individual Quality in the past, exploited it as a natural > resource without knowing it, and now it's just about depleted. Everyone's > just about out of gumption. And I think it's about time to return to the > rebuilding of this American resource...individual worth. There are > political reactionaries who've been saying something close to this for > years. I'm not one of them, but to the extent they're talking about real > individual worth and not just an excuse for giving more money to the rich, > they're right. We do need a return to individual integrity, self-reliance > and old-fashioned gumption. We really do." > > Robert M. Pirsig > Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance > > That's about as "really concern for man" as you can get, certainly not > "anti-human." If you find it less than satisfactory, you are probably of a > mind that considers the average individual too stupid to know what's > good, > or at least that you know better what's good than she does. > Regards, > Platt Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
