Jon, If you want to connect German philosophy with the Nazis, I get to connect Christian philosophy with the Inquisition. And just to refresh your memory patterns, the Northern European Protestant-Christians burned more "witches" then their southern Catholic-Christian counterpart.
Marsha On Apr 24, 2010, at 8:01 PM, Jon Bennett wrote: > Apples and organges. I did not say I was a Catholic. The Catholic church was > based on mix of religions grond motives that combined the greel form-matter > gm with the Christian. That's what the Reformation was for, out of which our > rights grew, returning to the original truth in solo scriptura. > > At certain times the Catholic church was little more than a mob, especially > during the time of the Medici. There were many political motives worked out, > and into the Catholic church. > > But this is a fair question Marha, and a serious one, thank you for raising > it. It is something I'd like to take the time to develop. > > I would suggest when you have time to look into Dooyeweerd as you have time. > http://ciots.blogsome.com/ > > The idea of the Holy Roman Empire was derived from the pagan, Aristotelian > idea of the state which thought of it as a higher organization than the > other spheres. > > DW's idea of sphere sovereignty shows why this is flawed and doesn't give > priority to any of the spheres. > > But I would like to carefully discuss this idea of the origin of human > rights, and the political and social outcomes of both the Chrisitan and a > moq world view. > > Thanks, > Jon > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 11:27 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Jon, >> >> You prefer the philosophy of the Inquisition? >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Apr 24, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Jon Bennett wrote: >> >>> Marsha, >>> >>> When I consider the impact of German philosophy on the world, which >>> culminated in Heideeger becoming a Nazi and using his philosophy to >> justify >>> and promote Hitler, I can only say with Solomon: >>> >>> There is a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time >> to >>> dance; >>> >>> Eccl 3:4 >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 10:50 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Laugh, Jon, laugh... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Jon Bennett wrote: >>>> >>>>> MarshaV, >>>>> >>>>> German philosophers inhabit every >>>>> moq post. It's in the lineage, the background, the very DNA of moq. >>>>> >>>>> But your'e right, there is an antidote! But it's not at all a pleasant >>>>> process. You first have to go through the shock, stress and pain, of >>>>> withdrawal and detox. Then you'll need to find a good moq anonymous >>>> meeting >>>>> and attend faithfully. >>>>> >>>>> Jon >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 2:24 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Jon, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm sure somewhere there's an antidote for too many German >> philosophers >>>>>> listed in a single post. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Marsha >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 12:18 AM, Jon Bennett wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> MarshaV, John, Ian and company, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At some point I want to discuss the archetypes of this, and the >>>> previous >>>>>>> age. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you've looked at the link I posted by Tarnas, you'll see that he >>>>>> refers >>>>>>> to a certain nexus of interrelated ideas that are behind each age. >>>> These >>>>>> are >>>>>>> the metaphysical roots that P speaks of, and each age has them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The interesting thing is when you look at them closely, it is clear >>>> that >>>>>>> these ideas were originally derived from ideas, or characteristics of >>>>>> God. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is most evident and easy to trace with Newton. He is constantly >>>>>> saying >>>>>>> space is absolute, eternal, and uniform, because God is. He was very >>>>>> clear >>>>>>> about this and intentionally thought this way as to understand how >> God >>>>>>> worked in the world. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In any event, these ideas that were once thought of as aspects of >> God, >>>>>> and >>>>>>> in a specific tradition, become the archetypes, the core ideas of >>>>>>> mechanistic physics. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Not only this, these same ideas are then imputed to all other realms >> of >>>>>>> thought and cultural expression. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is also true with modern physics. Ever read the Tao of Physics, >> or >>>>>>> Capra's, The Turning Point. He shows meticulously how the ideas in >>>>>> physics, >>>>>>> classical and modern, were spread to other areas of thought. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In both cases, these archetypal ideas can be traced back to theology, >>>>>> even >>>>>>> in a secular or non religious age, or even once they take on new, non >>>>>>> religious meanings. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The archetypes behind quantum physics and relativity and even >>>> complexity >>>>>>> science like wise can be traced back to philosophy and theology. You >>>> can >>>>>>> trace it back to when Hegel wanted to combine the ideas of the finite >>>> and >>>>>>> the infinite, the Creator and the creation. This was an intentional >>>> move >>>>>> by >>>>>>> Hegel and other of the German Idealist philosophers that followed >> him, >>>>>> and >>>>>>> this influence was likewise felt on the Romantic poets. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know this is but a broad outline, but Hegel and most of the >> Idealist >>>>>>> philosophers were trained as theologians, and their philosophy >>>>>> deliberately >>>>>>> incorporated theological ideas, and these subsequently influenced the >>>>>> course >>>>>>> of science, as it did the whole of the culture. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hegel's influence in this shift was the Greeks whom he idealized. And >> I >>>>>>> believe you can trace the moq back to this turning point in Western >>>>>> thought, >>>>>>> which might be described as the easternization of the West. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There's an interesting chapter in Alan Blooms, The Closing of the >>>>>> AMerican >>>>>>> Mind, called the German connection, which also makes this connection >>>> with >>>>>>> the sixties culture and high German philosophy. And there is also a >>>>>>> connection of German philosophy with Eastern mysticism, as well as >>>> Greek >>>>>>> thought. But the trend form Kant, Hegel, Schopenhauer, that leads to >>>>>>> Nietzsche and then Heidegger, is the trend that Pirsig swims in. Did >> he >>>>>> take >>>>>>> it furhter than the rest, I'm not sure yet. But he is in this very >> same >>>>>>> lineage which was begun by theologians considering the nature of God. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jon >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 11:41 PM, John Carl <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When you say "dropped" Marsha, I can take your meaning two differing >>>>>> ways: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:59 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I tend to agree that the terms God/Creator/Designer should be >>>>>>>>> dropped as 'a relic of an evil social suppression of intellectual >> and >>>>>>>>> Dynamic freedom.' >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The first way of "dropped" is the way we drop a belief in Santa >> Claus >>>> as >>>>>> we >>>>>>>> grow older and more sophisticated. An adult realization. I dropped >> a >>>>>>>> belief in Santa Claus when I was around ten. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The second possible meaning I can think of is dropped completely, >> like >>>>>> not >>>>>>>> even teaching kids about Santa Clause in the first place. Expunging >>>> him >>>>>>>> from our social memories. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Do you mean God should be dropped completely from the world's ideas? >>>> Or >>>>>> do >>>>>>>> you mean on an individual level where a child develops an idea of >> his >>>>>> own >>>>>>>> mind and worth by his/her overcoming the belief in God? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Or Santa Claus, for that matter. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you get my question, let me know your answer, or if not one of >>>> these >>>>>> two >>>>>>>> interpretations, some other way of dropping God. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Like, "OOps. I just dropped your God. I hope He didn't break." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> John the God breaker >>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ___ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>> Archives: >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>>> >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>> Archives: >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ___ >>>> >>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
