No we shouldn't criticise a commerical company because I never hear bad
things about Microsoft on here.

-----Original Message-----
From: David Freeman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: August 4, 2002 3:54 AM
Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding

I know I shouldn't do more to keep this going but I'll make this one,
and only, post.

 > this all started when rasmus had a problem with the "click"
 > in my original post

>From what I read, Rasmus made a correction to your opinion.  You are
entitled to your opinion, but perhaps you should learn that just because
it _is_ your opinion it is neither automatically right nor going to be
accepted by anyone else.

 > and i think i proved that if you are a member of the
 > php development you better not stray from what the php gods think or
 > you will get hanged in public or even banned or ignored.

I'm guessing that this is in reference to how you think you've been
treated.  As far as I can see, you've not been hanged in public, you've
not been banned and, unfortunately, you've not been ignored either.

I'd also suggest that there's a difference between having a differing
opinion and trying to shove it down everyone elses throat.

 > then i suggested that zend isn't really doing much to
 > "develop" an encoder or accelerator since one guy has been able to do
the same
 > thing

Ummm, I really don't see your point here.  Zend is doing what Zend
chooses to do.  Last I checked it's, largely, a free world and Zend is a
commercial entity.  They have written their particular tools and, by
virtue of the fact that they wrote them they can decide how they want to
market them.  That they've decided to give part of it away for free
(Zend engine in PHP) is their choice.  I, for one, am glad they did.
That they decided to retain control over another part of it (IDE,
Optimiser etc) and sell that is also their choice.  The price they set
for it is also their choice since they created it in the first place.

It is not my place, nor yours for that matter, to criticise Zend for
what they may or may not do in the commercial market place.  Why
_should_ Zend do anything in particular to "develop" a php market?  So
you can get a job programming in PHP?  Why is that their problem?

 > and rasmus is like of course not silly if microsoft sold their
 > for what they cost it would be $0.02.

I'm not even sure what your point is here...

 > so fine zend is ripping people off, what's the point?

Are they?  Were you forced to buy something from Zend?  Was I?  It's
your free choice to spend money with Zend.  If you don't then they
haven't ripped you off.  If you do, one presumes that you have because
you see value in doing so.  If _NOBODY_ purchases product from Zend then
they are free to go broke or review their pricing - that's a commercial

 > it has been damaging to php is my point.

Really?  Why is Zend to blame for this 'damage' to PHP?  Because they
aren't spending money advertising it?  How do you know they aren't?  I'd
expect that Zend, like every other commercial entity, has an advertising
budget.  I'd expect that they spend money advertising themselves and
their products.  Are they also expected to spend money promoting php
itself?  Why?

 > no one knows what php is and no one will pay you to do php.

Really?  I've been paid to do php for clients.  You point, I believe,
was about number of job listings.  I've honestly not looked - and I'm
not in your part of the world anyway.  Consider that a lack of job
listings does not necessarily equate to a lack of paid work.  Consider
that a good many people earn money programming in PHP.  Or are you
bitter because you feel that you've wasted time learning to program in
PHP and now can't get a job?  If so, I can only suggest that you get
more skills - the more multi-skilled you are the better your chances of

Either that or you could apply for jobs that want, for example, ASP and
then sell them on the idea of doing the stuff in php instead.  Isn't it
your 'duty' to do this?  If you don't aren't you just 'damaging' php?

 > no matter what rasmus says that 600 people have access to the
 > cvs, php is zend and zend is php.

I neither claim to be an expert on php nor zend but it was my
understanding that zend has contributed a reasonably significant key
component of PHP.  Even so, they are not the only source of php
development.  Many people contribute.  Each of those people have some
say in what happens.

 > after that is when all the little minions started acting
 > tough so that the cool kids would like them better.

Ummm, ok, whatever...

 > here's the original post that i made, maybe people should reread it:

 > -------
 > There is a free php accelerator so I don't know why you
 > would pay for one.

OK, so don't pay for one.  I don't see anyone forcing you to pay for
one.  It's your choice.

 > The same guy (Nick) has also just made an encoder.  It is in
 > beta testing
 > right now and there's no windows version yet but that should
 > be coming soon.
 > I think it's like $0.50 to encode your program which is much more
 > affordable.

OK, that's cool.  Good for Nick.

 > I think the problem with zend is that they have put up the
 > guise that php is an opensource project but to actually use it in
 > you had to pay several thousands every year for the accelerator and
 > encoder.

Umm, Zend hasn't put up the guise that php is opensource.  The php
folks, on the other hand, have.  Are you contending that php isn't open
source?  On what basis?

Why do you need to pay money to use php in production?  I'm sure there's
a good many people on this list alone that use php in production and
don't pay for products produced by zend.  I'd bet money on some of them
doing very serious web serving without the benefit of zend products.

I'm intrigued by your statement that you can't use php in production
without the accelerator or encoder.

 > feels like a bait and switch to me which is why I personally
 > think zend is bad for php.  Just do a search for jobs for asp, cf or

Why is it Zend's job to do anything about this?  Why isn't it yours?  Or
mine?  Or someone elses?  Why put the blame on zend?

 > There are a ton
 > of jobs for these languages and you would be lucky to find
 > one for a php developer.

Well, there are a ton of advertised vacancies anyway.  That doesn't
always mean that there are actual jobs as anyone who has dealt with head
hunters would know.  Even then, so what?  Why is this zend's problem?
If you don't like it I'd suggest that you can:

1.  learn another language and get a job doing that,
2.  learn more languages and be multi-skilled,
3.  become a php advocate and convert some of employers to using php

 > So zend rakes in the money and does no real
 > marketing with that money for php is the way I see it.

And you base this statement on what evidence?  Presumably the fact that
you've never seen any advertising for php?  Or never seen any
advertising for zend products?  How do you know zend is 'raking in the
money' anyway?  For all you know it's a group of one or three
programmers struggling to make ends meet (no, I don't know either way,
not that I've ever tried to find out).

 > You'll never hear anything from the core php group since
 > they are a tight
 > click so it's business as usual.

I see posts on this group from members of the php developers group.  As
far as I know, you can subscribe to the php developers mailing list(s)
yourself and see what goes on.  AFAIK there's nothing stopping you from
doing so.  I'd expect that you can't just get write access to cvs just
because you ask but that's not the issue.

 > Now that Nick has released the free
 > accelerator and an inexpensive ($0.50 per shot) encoder it
 > might change but I don't know if it's too late.

Great for Nick (whoever he is).  $0.50 isn't necessarily cheap though.
I have one of my own web sites with about 50 php pages on it.  That
would be $250 to encode just one website.  Ten similar web sites and
you're talking $2500.  That's getting up towards what Zend charges isn't
it?  I'd suggest that the differences are as much in product marketing
as anything else.  One (Zend) is quite clearly for serious developers
with good justification for their tools.  The other (Nick's) is for the
smaller operation that has occasional need.

Let's face it though.  Serious web development tools cost serious money.
How much is it to buy Photoshop?  What about Dreamweaver or Go Live?
What about Flash?  Here in Australia pricing on this sort of stuff
starts well over A$500.  A decent set of professional web development
tools can cost well into the thousands.

The choices are ultimately yours.  Use free software and accept that,
some of the time, it may not do exactly what you want.  Accept that some
free software is going to be superior to software that costs much more.
You decide what you're going to spend and what tools you'll have
available to you as a result.

CYA, Dave

OBTW - reply, don't reply, whatever, this is my one and only post on
this thread.

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