Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101

[Peter Turskovitch]

On Thursday, June 8, 2017 at 11:05:36 PM UTC+2, Daniel Jackson wrote:
>
> What rear mech are you using?


An old XTR on a wolf tooth road link. 

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Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101

[Jay Connolly]

After working plenty with 10-speed systems, I've been moving more toward 
friction shifting and 9- or 8-speed systems. Having said that, I set up a 
flawless 11-speed transmission with the following:

- Shimano 11-speed 105 brifters
- White Industries 46-30 VBC road crank (also have 42-26 rings, but not the 
proprietary tool to swap the rings)
- Shimano 11-speed M8000 rear mech
- Shimano CX70 front mech
- Shimano 11-40 rear cassette.
- Wolf Tooth tanpan cable pull converter

The system shifts perfectly and gives me 20-114 gear inches, I believe. 

Jay

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Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101

[Daniel Jackson]

What rear mech are you using?

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Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101

[Peter Turskovitch]

Resurrecting an old thread, but I made a chance discovery that may be of 
interest to the group. 

One limitation of friction-shifted 10 and 11 speed bikes has been the throw 
length of bar-end shifters. Some people have gotten around this problem 
with judicious filing of the bar-end pods, like Ultraromance did here with 
this amazing ride 

.

I'm here to tell you that this filing isn't necessary. 

I mounted late-model Shimano 600 downtube shifters (these ones 
)
 
on generic Shimano bar-end pods. These shifters, on these pods, will pull 
through a *full 180 degrees*. On a 10 speed cassette they move a little 
over 90 degrees. I haven't tried 11 (or 12), but I guarantee that it will 
work. How do I know? With the chain removed and the derailler limits backed 
all the way out, the shifter will easily pull the derailler into the wheel 
and beyond. These shifters are also truly "light action", in that you can 
easily move them by tiny increments. With 10 speed you just never miss a 
shift. 

Hope this helps! I'm friction shifting a mega-wide-range system of various 
parts and just loving it. In the rear I have a 10-speed 11-42 cassette. In 
the front I use a SunXCD 26-46 double. Altogether I can pull my kid trailer 
up alpine passes (I live in Switzerland) and my top speed is about 40km/hr 
- which I can only reach on steep descents. I have the range I need!

Highly recommend this gearing. 

Peter

On Saturday, September 17, 2016 at 1:46:49 AM UTC+2, John G wrote:
>
> I use a 9sp MTB triple with a small 22 front and 36 rear on my general 
> riding and touring bike (Specialized AWOL), and I have found times I would 
> have been glad to have a 40 or 42 in back on loose steep and/or very long 
> loaded climbs.  So sorry I schlepp too much gear to suit you. I find it 
> just right for my needs and wants.  It is certainly possible I could have 
> walked these climbs too (and sometimes have), but some have been on tight 
> enough trails to make riding more practical than walking.  I think it is 
> cool that some folks are using off the shelf items in innovative ways to 
> get people riding where they otherwise might not.
>
> John G in Union Bridge, MD
>
> On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 11:45:50 PM UTC-4, Clayton.sf wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> 40t cogs are the domain of 1x gearing IMO, unless it is an academic 
>> exercise or you are schlepping too much much gear. 22x40 - you would likely 
>> be able to walk as fast. And... why not use at triple at that point. 
>> Personally I like short cage derailers for dirt or none at all and don't go 
>> beyond 36 in a cassette.
>>
>> 
>>
>> Clayton Scott
>> SF, CA
>>
>>

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Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Daniel Jackson]

I only wish this shifter could be used on pods...

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Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Clayton.sf]

Shortly after this thread paused I broke my duraace dt 10 speed shifter. I 
ended up replacing it with that diacompe 10 speed / 11 speed dt friction 
shifter Justin mentioned two post prior. 

Just rode a century with it on Sunday. Worked amazingly well combined with a 
short cage shimano zee clutch derailer. About half way tbrough the ride I 
started liking it even better than the previous indexed setup.

 Thanks Justin for the info and inspiration! I am pleasantly surprised!

CLAYTON Scott
SF, CA

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Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Jon BALER]

Keep in mind Shimano 10 speed road and mountain have different amount of 
pull.  10 speed road has the same total pull as 9 speed, so the pull for 
each shift is less.   10 speed mountain (Dynasis) has significantly more 
total pull, and the pull for each shift is greater.

When Shimano dynasis first came out, it seemed like a big pain as old 
friction shifters were not compatible (unlike previous 7-8-9 transitions). 
  However, in the last few years a number of options have came out for 10 
speed dynasis/mountain and friction shifting .  Velo Orange Dia-Compe, 
Microshift, Soma/IRD, and Gevenalle all have options whether you like 
downtube, trigger/thumbie, or integrated with brake levers.

I've found 10 speed mountain/Dynasis to shift better than 9 speed, since it 
actually has more tolerance for cable pull.

On Saturday, September 17, 2016 at 6:01:22 PM UTC-4, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
> Last summer at a tandem rally I chatted with a couple who had toured from 
> the Maine coast into the adirondack with 10 speed friction.  He reported 
> that on balance I found it easier and more reliable than indexed shifting. 
>   Tandems, of course, have mega long cables which can easily throw indexing 
> out of alignment.
>
> Michael
>
> On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 7:38:16 PM UTC-4, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>>
>> And yes, I am glad to confirm that the Silver shifters pull plenty of 
>> cable for 10 speed on a standard pull derailleur. Don't know about a 
>> Dynasys one. I'd been planning to try it, but I think I'm gonna abandon 
>> that project now that I have the Velo Routier.
>>
>> I'll go so far as to say that 10 speed with Silver shifters is my current 
>> favorite drivetrain / shifter setup at the moment. And Cycles Toussaint 
>> liked it well enough to ship it as the stock setup on their complete bikes!
>>
>>
>> Reed
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 1:56 PM, Daniel Jackson  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> My main reason for asking Clayton the question in the other thread was 
>>> just to be sure that the Silvers can actually pull enough cable to work 
>>> with 10 speed. I imagine there is no problem as overall cassette width 
>>> between 10 and 9 speed is negligible. 
>>>
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Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Michael Hechmer]

Last summer at a tandem rally I chatted with a couple who had toured from 
the Maine coast into the adirondack with 10 speed friction.  He reported 
that on balance I found it easier and more reliable than indexed shifting. 
  Tandems, of course, have mega long cables which can easily throw indexing 
out of alignment.

Michael

On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 7:38:16 PM UTC-4, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>
> And yes, I am glad to confirm that the Silver shifters pull plenty of 
> cable for 10 speed on a standard pull derailleur. Don't know about a 
> Dynasys one. I'd been planning to try it, but I think I'm gonna abandon 
> that project now that I have the Velo Routier.
>
> I'll go so far as to say that 10 speed with Silver shifters is my current 
> favorite drivetrain / shifter setup at the moment. And Cycles Toussaint 
> liked it well enough to ship it as the stock setup on their complete bikes!
>
>
> Reed
>
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 1:56 PM, Daniel Jackson  > wrote:
>
>> My main reason for asking Clayton the question in the other thread was 
>> just to be sure that the Silvers can actually pull enough cable to work 
>> with 10 speed. I imagine there is no problem as overall cassette width 
>> between 10 and 9 speed is negligible. 
>>
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Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Justin August]

http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/shifting-freewheels-cassettes/shifters/dia-compe-ene-11s-dt-shifters.html

Plus there's these 11speed friction shifters. 

-Justin

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Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Clayton.sf]

Interesting indeed! Might be time to revisit. 

Another interesting thing is that on Paul thumbing mounts Shimano 8 speed 
barend shifters pull enough cable to sweep the whole cassette 8, 9, or 10 speed 
with a Dynasys rear derailed. But, when mounted on the bar end pods they come 
up short on the outermost cog. 

Seems like it is not so much the shifter rather than the "external" stop that 
limits compatibility for friction shifting mixing and matching road and Dynasys 
components.

Clayton Scott
SF, CA

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Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101

[John G]

I use a 9sp MTB triple with a small 22 front and 36 rear on my general 
riding and touring bike (Specialized AWOL), and I have found times I would 
have been glad to have a 40 or 42 in back on loose steep and/or very long 
loaded climbs.  So sorry I schlepp too much gear to suit you. I find it 
just right for my needs and wants.  It is certainly possible I could have 
walked these climbs too (and sometimes have), but some have been on tight 
enough trails to make riding more practical than walking.  I think it is 
cool that some folks are using off the shelf items in innovative ways to 
get people riding where they otherwise might not.

John G in Union Bridge, MD

On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 11:45:50 PM UTC-4, Clayton.sf wrote:
>
> 
>
> 40t cogs are the domain of 1x gearing IMO, unless it is an academic 
> exercise or you are schlepping too much much gear. 22x40 - you would likely 
> be able to walk as fast. And... why not use at triple at that point. 
> Personally I like short cage derailers for dirt or none at all and don't go 
> beyond 36 in a cassette.
>
> 
>
> Clayton Scott
> SF, CA
>
>

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Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Reed Kennedy]

And yes, I am glad to confirm that the Silver shifters pull plenty of cable
for 10 speed on a standard pull derailleur. Don't know about a Dynasys one.
I'd been planning to try it, but I think I'm gonna abandon that project now
that I have the Velo Routier.

I'll go so far as to say that 10 speed with Silver shifters is my current
favorite drivetrain / shifter setup at the moment. And Cycles Toussaint
liked it well enough to ship it as the stock setup on their complete bikes!


Reed

On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 1:56 PM, Daniel Jackson <
daniel.seth.jack...@gmail.com> wrote:

> My main reason for asking Clayton the question in the other thread was
> just to be sure that the Silvers can actually pull enough cable to work
> with 10 speed. I imagine there is no problem as overall cassette width
> between 10 and 9 speed is negligible.
>
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Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Reed Kennedy]

Good call Daniel! I bet that's why. It had never occurred to me that
a narrower chain and cassette might be beneficial, but here we are. Neat!

I'm happy to leave my other bikes on 8 and 9 speed, though.


Reed

On Friday, September 16, 2016, Daniel Jackson 
wrote:

> This is fascinating - I have heard both that friction shifting 10 sp is
> easier and that its harder than 9 sp. The main reason I've heard for the
> former is that there is less space between gears so you're never "out" of
> gear as you might be on a 9 speed.
>
> On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 2:08:41 PM UTC-4, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Clayton.sf  wrote:
>>
>>> I don't use friction with 10 speed. Too fiddly especially when tired.
>>> That is not a function of the type of friction shifter though.
>>>
>>
>> Just a quick counterpoint: I recently bought a Velo Routier. It came
>> stock with Silver shifters, a 10 speed 12-28 cassette, and a Microshift
>> Centos rear derailleur like this one: https://www.amazon.com/mi
>> croSHIFT-Derailleur-RD-R57SE-Bicycle-Compatible/dp/B014L49Z
>> ME/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8=1474048526=8-3=centos+derailleur
>>
>> I was originally apprehensive about this combination for exactly the
>> reasons Clayton describes. But taking it for a ride, I was surprised how
>> well it worked. It was very difficult to find "bad" shift lever positions.
>> Nine times out of ten whatever position I'd stick the lever in would just
>> find a gear and work great with no trimming. The tenth time I'd just trim a
>> bit. It worked so well I came to really enjoy the downtube shifters.
>>
>> This is markedly different than my other friction bikes which require
>> more active and more frequent trimming (and all have barcons because of
>> it). Perhaps the derailleur is doing something special? Maybe with the
>> floating top pulley? I don't know.
>>
>> I later realized that Fred over on the 650B list rode the same bike
>> (literally the one I later bought) and made a similar observation:
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/650b/6vYkUkoO_l4/T7gcNitEuC4J
>>
>> Last note: This bike and derailleur only have a few hundred miles on
>> them, tops, so I can't speak to the longevity of this Microshift
>> derailleur. But it sure is working great now!
>>
>>
>> Reed
>>
>>
>>> On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 3:26:06 AM UTC-7, Daniel Jackson wrote:

 Clayton,

 Do you use Silvers to shift your 10 speeds?

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Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101

[Steve Palincsar]

Nobody ever said you would.  However, the comment regarding 40T 
sprockets being the domain of 1x gearing was not confined to the context 
of dirt road adventure bikes.


And let's be clear: although neither you nor I are very likely to be 
owners of carbon fiber racing bikes, our friends almost certainly will 
be.  And the time will come when those friends will complain about their 
gearing, to us, because they know we are interested in and knowledgeable 
about, such matters.  And when that time comes, you too will run head on 
into the litany of "you can't get there from here" technological 
obstacles I mentioned, obstacles that I myself ran into trying to help a 
friend in the local bike club.


The friend in question had been to several local shops and they all said 
"It cannot be done.  Period."


Having researched these issues for about 3 weeks, I finally came upon a 
solution, using the Woldtooth Roadlink; she then stumbled onto a shop - 
not so local, but no more than an hour's drive from here - where they do 
a lot of dirt road adventure bikes.  And they came up with the other 
solution, using the Wolftooth Tanpan.


So I figured it would be worth mentioning here, as I expect folks here 
will find themselves in the same situation I did.



On 09/16/2016 05:38 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:
I agree. You wouldn't choose a carbon fiber racing bike as the base 
for building a dirt road adventure bike.


On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 10:32 AM, Clayton.sf > wrote:


Just to clarify,

The way I read the article I it was aimed at touring bikes
(example shows a Hunq) and their appropriate gearing. My response
too was aimed at touring bikes not modern carbon race bikes.
Plenty of triple options for Rivbikes.

Clayton Scott
SF, CA





On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 5:37:24 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar
wrote:


On 09/15/2016 11:45 PM, Clayton.sf wrote:
> 40t cogs are the domain of 1x gearing IMO, unless it is an
academic exercise or you are schlepping too much much gear.
22x40 - you would likely be able to walk as fast. And... why
not use at triple at that point. Personally I like short cage
derailers for dirt or none at all and don't go beyond 36 in a
cassette.

In the carbon frame 11 speed era, increasingly 40T sprockets
are the
only way to get gears in the low 20s.  Triples aren't an
option because
1) there aren't many, if any, made for the type of bottom
brackets used
on carbon road bikes; 2) integrated brake/shift levers don't
do triples
(either at all, in the case of the higher group levels, or very
successfully); 3) even if you could change crank sets you are
still
stuck with a 50T large chain ring on most of these bikes
because the
front derailleur is mounted on a "braze-on" bracket whose
adjustment
slot is made such that you can't lower the front derailleur at
all.
Along with that 50T big ring comes a 34T small ring.

So where does this leave you?  34 x 32 is now the "standard"
low gear,
and the lowest "road" groups offer.  With the 23mm tires these
bikes
have, that's a 28" gear.  If you need lower than that, you've
got to go
to larger sprockets, and the next larger sizes are 36 and 40
which give
you 25" and 22", respectively, and you've got to use one of
the two
Wolftooth devices: Roadlink (which will let that 32T capable
road rear
derailleur accommodate a 36T sprocket) or Tanpan, which will
let you use
a Dynasys rear derailleur, which can handle 40T.

None of this is ideal, in that along with those 36 or 40T large
sprockets you get an 11T 1st position, and 50x11 gives you a
120" top
gear - and what anybody who needs a 25 or 22 inch low is going
to do
with a 120" big gear I cannot imagine.  The next gear down
with these
cassettes is a 50x13 which isn't so bad - 101" - so I imagine
basically
you treat the 1st position sprocket as a spacer and forget you
have 11
back there.

But basically, with those bikes that is all you can do.

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Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101

[Patrick Moore]

I agree. You wouldn't choose a carbon fiber racing bike as the base for
building a dirt road adventure bike.

On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 10:32 AM, Clayton.sf  wrote:

> Just to clarify,
>
> The way I read the article I it was aimed at touring bikes (example shows
> a Hunq) and their appropriate gearing. My response too was aimed at touring
> bikes not modern carbon race bikes. Plenty of triple options for Rivbikes.
>
> Clayton Scott
> SF, CA
>
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 5:37:24 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 09/15/2016 11:45 PM, Clayton.sf wrote:
>> > 40t cogs are the domain of 1x gearing IMO, unless it is an academic
>> exercise or you are schlepping too much much gear. 22x40 - you would likely
>> be able to walk as fast. And... why not use at triple at that point.
>> Personally I like short cage derailers for dirt or none at all and don't go
>> beyond 36 in a cassette.
>>
>> In the carbon frame 11 speed era, increasingly 40T sprockets are the
>> only way to get gears in the low 20s.  Triples aren't an option because
>> 1) there aren't many, if any, made for the type of bottom brackets used
>> on carbon road bikes; 2) integrated brake/shift levers don't do triples
>> (either at all, in the case of the higher group levels, or very
>> successfully); 3) even if you could change crank sets you are still
>> stuck with a 50T large chain ring on most of these bikes because the
>> front derailleur is mounted on a "braze-on" bracket whose adjustment
>> slot is made such that you can't lower the front derailleur at all.
>> Along with that 50T big ring comes a 34T small ring.
>>
>> So where does this leave you?  34 x 32 is now the "standard" low gear,
>> and the lowest "road" groups offer.  With the 23mm tires these bikes
>> have, that's a 28" gear.  If you need lower than that, you've got to go
>> to larger sprockets, and the next larger sizes are 36 and 40 which give
>> you 25" and 22", respectively, and you've got to use one of the two
>> Wolftooth devices: Roadlink (which will let that 32T capable road rear
>> derailleur accommodate a 36T sprocket) or Tanpan, which will let you use
>> a Dynasys rear derailleur, which can handle 40T.
>>
>> None of this is ideal, in that along with those 36 or 40T large
>> sprockets you get an 11T 1st position, and 50x11 gives you a 120" top
>> gear - and what anybody who needs a 25 or 22 inch low is going to do
>> with a 120" big gear I cannot imagine.  The next gear down with these
>> cassettes is a 50x13 which isn't so bad - 101" - so I imagine basically
>> you treat the 1st position sprocket as a spacer and forget you have 11
>> back there.
>>
>> But basically, with those bikes that is all you can do.
>>
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Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Patrick Moore]

I don't know if the road Microshift rd I used was a Centos; I expect not,
because it was several years old and had no big Centos on it. But whatever
it was, it was the very best shifting rd I've ever used, and shifted 9
mismatched with Silver BESs better than the current 8 speed Dura Ace does.

I'm pleased to see that others can shift 10 in friction without problem.
Must try that myself one day.

On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Reed Kennedy  wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Clayton.sf  wrote:
>
>> I don't use friction with 10 speed. Too fiddly especially when tired.
>> That is not a function of the type of friction shifter though.
>>
>
> Just a quick counterpoint: I recently bought a Velo Routier. It came stock
> with Silver shifters, a 10 speed 12-28 cassette, and a Microshift Centos
> rear derailleur like this one: https://www.amazon.com/
> microSHIFT-Derailleur-RD-R57SE-Bicycle-Compatible/dp/
> B014L49ZME/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8=1474048526=8-3&
> keywords=centos+derailleur
>
> I was originally apprehensive about this combination for exactly the
> reasons Clayton describes. But taking it for a ride, I was surprised how
> well it worked. It was very difficult to find "bad" shift lever positions.
> Nine times out of ten whatever position I'd stick the lever in would just
> find a gear and work great with no trimming. The tenth time I'd just trim a
> bit. It worked so well I came to really enjoy the downtube shifters.
>
> This is markedly different than my other friction bikes which require more
> active and more frequent trimming (and all have barcons because of it).
> Perhaps the derailleur is doing something special? Maybe with the floating
> top pulley? I don't know.
>
> I later realized that Fred over on the 650B list rode the same bike
> (literally the one I later bought) and made a similar observation:
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/650b/6vYkUkoO_l4/T7gcNitEuC4J
>
> Last note: This bike and derailleur only have a few hundred miles on them,
> tops, so I can't speak to the longevity of this Microshift derailleur. But
> it sure is working great now!
>
>
>
>

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Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Lungimsam]

My first Rivendell was a Bleriot with Ultegra groupset and shimano bar 
ends. Shifting was horrible in friction mode with 10 speed cassette. Crisp 
with the SIS function, though. 

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Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Daniel Jackson]

My main reason for asking Clayton the question in the other thread was just 
to be sure that the Silvers can actually pull enough cable to work with 10 
speed. I imagine there is no problem as overall cassette width between 10 
and 9 speed is negligible. 

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Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Daniel Jackson]

This is fascinating - I have heard both that friction shifting 10 sp is 
easier and that its harder than 9 sp. The main reason I've heard for the 
former is that there is less space between gears so you're never "out" of 
gear as you might be on a 9 speed. 

On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 2:08:41 PM UTC-4, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Clayton.sf  > wrote:
>
>> I don't use friction with 10 speed. Too fiddly especially when tired. 
>> That is not a function of the type of friction shifter though. 
>>
>
> Just a quick counterpoint: I recently bought a Velo Routier. It came stock 
> with Silver shifters, a 10 speed 12-28 cassette, and a Microshift Centos 
> rear derailleur like this one: 
> https://www.amazon.com/microSHIFT-Derailleur-RD-R57SE-Bicycle-Compatible/dp/B014L49ZME/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8=1474048526=8-3=centos+derailleur
>
> I was originally apprehensive about this combination for exactly the 
> reasons Clayton describes. But taking it for a ride, I was surprised how 
> well it worked. It was very difficult to find "bad" shift lever positions. 
> Nine times out of ten whatever position I'd stick the lever in would just 
> find a gear and work great with no trimming. The tenth time I'd just trim a 
> bit. It worked so well I came to really enjoy the downtube shifters.
>
> This is markedly different than my other friction bikes which require more 
> active and more frequent trimming (and all have barcons because of it). 
> Perhaps the derailleur is doing something special? Maybe with the floating 
> top pulley? I don't know.
>
> I later realized that Fred over on the 650B list rode the same bike 
> (literally the one I later bought) and made a similar observation: 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/650b/6vYkUkoO_l4/T7gcNitEuC4J
>  
> Last note: This bike and derailleur only have a few hundred miles on them, 
> tops, so I can't speak to the longevity of this Microshift derailleur. But 
> it sure is working great now!
>
>
> Reed
>  
>
>> On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 3:26:06 AM UTC-7, Daniel Jackson wrote:
>>>
>>> Clayton,
>>>
>>> Do you use Silvers to shift your 10 speeds?
>>>
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>
>

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Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101

[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/16/2016 12:32 PM, Clayton.sf wrote:

Just to clarify,

The way I read the article I it was aimed at touring bikes (example 
shows a Hunq) and their appropriate gearing. My response too was aimed 
at touring bikes not modern carbon race bikes. Plenty of triple 
options for Rivbikes.


Yes, they are equipped with two very sensible things: round seat tubes 
and BSC standard bottom brackets.  With those two, you are gold.  You 
probably won't ever hear someone equipped with a bike like that 
complaining about insufficient low gear, because they already have as 
low gearing as they could possibly every use with the standard typical 
parts that come on those bikes.  Sensible for sure.




On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 5:37:24 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:


On 09/15/2016 11:45 PM, Clayton.sf wrote:
> 40t cogs are the domain of 1x gearing IMO, unless it is an
academic exercise or you are schlepping too much much gear. 22x40
- you would likely be able to walk as fast. And... why not use at
triple at that point. Personally I like short cage derailers for
dirt or none at all and don't go beyond 36 in a cassette.

In the carbon frame 11 speed era, increasingly 40T sprockets are the
only way to get gears in the low 20s.  Triples aren't an option
because
1) there aren't many, if any, made for the type of bottom brackets
used
on carbon road bikes; 2) integrated brake/shift levers don't do
triples
(either at all, in the case of the higher group levels, or very
successfully); 3) even if you could change crank sets you are still
stuck with a 50T large chain ring on most of these bikes because the
front derailleur is mounted on a "braze-on" bracket whose adjustment
slot is made such that you can't lower the front derailleur at all.
Along with that 50T big ring comes a 34T small ring.

So where does this leave you?  34 x 32 is now the "standard" low
gear,
and the lowest "road" groups offer.  With the 23mm tires these bikes
have, that's a 28" gear.  If you need lower than that, you've got
to go
to larger sprockets, and the next larger sizes are 36 and 40 which
give
you 25" and 22", respectively, and you've got to use one of the two
Wolftooth devices: Roadlink (which will let that 32T capable road
rear
derailleur accommodate a 36T sprocket) or Tanpan, which will let
you use
a Dynasys rear derailleur, which can handle 40T.

None of this is ideal, in that along with those 36 or 40T large
sprockets you get an 11T 1st position, and 50x11 gives you a 120" top
gear - and what anybody who needs a 25 or 22 inch low is going to do
with a 120" big gear I cannot imagine.  The next gear down with these
cassettes is a 50x13 which isn't so bad - 101" - so I imagine
basically
you treat the 1st position sprocket as a spacer and forget you
have 11
back there.

But basically, with those bikes that is all you can do.

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Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101

[Bill Lindsay]

I'm really close to where you are at, Philip.  On my touring bike, I'm 
currently running 44/28 with a 12-30, but I'm converting to a mountain rear 
der so I can swap back and forth between an 11-32 and an 11-36.  I'll move 
the 12-30 and the road derailer over to a roadier bike.  

44x11 will be plenty for top end, and 28x36 ought to be low enough for the 
kinds of loaded touring I intend to do.  If that turns out not to be the 
case, I might drop to 42/26.  16-teeth of spread is the max that I ever do. 
 Even that is a humongous jump, requiring lots of double shifting.  The 
20-tooth jump that the OP recommends is further than I'm willing to go, but 
I like the general concept, and the assertion that you can do everything 
you need to do with 2 rings, if you are willing to work with it.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 11:58:29 AM UTC-7, Philip Kim wrote:
>
> 10 speed works fine for me. 
>
> running 40/26, 11-34 right now, its pretty sufficient. once things wear 
> out, gonna go 44/26 and 11-40 for extended climbing with load, while 
> getting more on the top end. i like the power ratchet shifting on the 
> silver shifters, but the plastic washer broke on me after a year of 
> commuting use. i'm not the only one. for the same price, i'd rather get 
> shimano bar ends. currently run microshift 10 spd mtb bar ends on 
> gevenalles - index as well as shimano, but friction shifting is not as 
> smooth and a bit stiff.
>

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Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101

[Brewster Fong]

On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 5:37:24 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
> On 09/15/2016 11:45 PM, Clayton.sf wrote: 
> > 40t cogs are the domain of 1x gearing IMO, unless it is an academic 
> exercise or you are schlepping too much much gear. 22x40 - you would likely 
> be able to walk as fast. And... why not use at triple at that point. 
> Personally I like short cage derailers for dirt or none at all and don't go 
> beyond 36 in a cassette. 
>
> Triples aren't an option because 
> 1) there aren't many, if any, made for the type of bottom brackets used 
> on carbon road bikes; 2) integrated brake/shift levers don't do triples 
> (either at all, in the case of the higher group levels, or very 
> successfully); 3) even if you could change crank sets you are still 
> stuck with a 50T large chain ring on most of these bikes because the 
> front derailleur is mounted on a "braze-on" bracket whose adjustment 
> slot is made such that you can't lower the front derailleur at all.   
> Along with that 50T big ring comes a 34T small ring. 
>
> Boy, this is a real generalization that isn't really true!  Well, at least 
> with Campy equipment. 



First, triple crank. Yes, for 2016, Campy still offers a triple crank:
>

 
http://www.campagnolo.com/US/en/CampyWorld/Product/new_triple_transimissions_athenacentaur_and_veloce

Second, integrated shifters and triple - Campy ergo levers are still triple 
compatible. In fact, the current Athena is triple compatible with 11 speed:

http://www.campagnolo.com/US/en/Support/is_the_triple_crankset_compatible_with_an_11_speed_groupset

Third, agree that Campy triple crank gearing are 30/42/53 or 30/39/52:

http://www.campagnolo.com/WW/en/Components/athena_power_torque_11x3_crankset

But I believe the 30t small ring is still 74mm bcd, so you can actually 
substitute a smaller ring down to 24t? 

Also, it looks like Shimano still offers triples in Ultegra, 105, Claris 
(what's that?!) and Tiagra.  However, they are only for their 10 speed 
groups. Haven't seen anything for 11 speed, so it may not be available. 



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Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101

[Philip Kim]

10 speed works fine for me. 

running 40/26, 11-34 right now, its pretty sufficient. once things wear 
out, gonna go 44/26 and 11-40 for extended climbing with load, while 
getting more on the top end. i like the power ratchet shifting on the 
silver shifters, but the plastic washer broke on me after a year of 
commuting use. i'm not the only one. for the same price, i'd rather get 
shimano bar ends. currently run microshift 10 spd mtb bar ends on 
gevenalles - index as well as shimano, but friction shifting is not as 
smooth and a bit stiff.

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Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Philip Kim]

2x10 friction here with SLX RD. I use Microshift shifters in friction mode, 
I've used 8,9, and 10 speed friction. After a few shifts I get used to the 
cable pull and never think about it again.

On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 2:08:41 PM UTC-4, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Clayton.sf  > wrote:
>
>> I don't use friction with 10 speed. Too fiddly especially when tired. 
>> That is not a function of the type of friction shifter though. 
>>
>
> Just a quick counterpoint: I recently bought a Velo Routier. It came stock 
> with Silver shifters, a 10 speed 12-28 cassette, and a Microshift Centos 
> rear derailleur like this one: 
> https://www.amazon.com/microSHIFT-Derailleur-RD-R57SE-Bicycle-Compatible/dp/B014L49ZME/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8=1474048526=8-3=centos+derailleur
>
> I was originally apprehensive about this combination for exactly the 
> reasons Clayton describes. But taking it for a ride, I was surprised how 
> well it worked. It was very difficult to find "bad" shift lever positions. 
> Nine times out of ten whatever position I'd stick the lever in would just 
> find a gear and work great with no trimming. The tenth time I'd just trim a 
> bit. It worked so well I came to really enjoy the downtube shifters.
>
> This is markedly different than my other friction bikes which require more 
> active and more frequent trimming (and all have barcons because of it). 
> Perhaps the derailleur is doing something special? Maybe with the floating 
> top pulley? I don't know.
>
> I later realized that Fred over on the 650B list rode the same bike 
> (literally the one I later bought) and made a similar observation: 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/650b/6vYkUkoO_l4/T7gcNitEuC4J
>  
> Last note: This bike and derailleur only have a few hundred miles on them, 
> tops, so I can't speak to the longevity of this Microshift derailleur. But 
> it sure is working great now!
>
>
> Reed
>  
>
>> On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 3:26:06 AM UTC-7, Daniel Jackson wrote:
>>>
>>> Clayton,
>>>
>>> Do you use Silvers to shift your 10 speeds?
>>>
>> -- 
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>>
>
>

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Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Reed Kennedy]

On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Clayton.sf  wrote:

> I don't use friction with 10 speed. Too fiddly especially when tired. That
> is not a function of the type of friction shifter though.
>

Just a quick counterpoint: I recently bought a Velo Routier. It came stock
with Silver shifters, a 10 speed 12-28 cassette, and a Microshift Centos
rear derailleur like this one:
https://www.amazon.com/microSHIFT-Derailleur-RD-R57SE-Bicycle-Compatible/dp/B014L49ZME/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8=1474048526=8-3=centos+derailleur

I was originally apprehensive about this combination for exactly the
reasons Clayton describes. But taking it for a ride, I was surprised how
well it worked. It was very difficult to find "bad" shift lever positions.
Nine times out of ten whatever position I'd stick the lever in would just
find a gear and work great with no trimming. The tenth time I'd just trim a
bit. It worked so well I came to really enjoy the downtube shifters.

This is markedly different than my other friction bikes which require more
active and more frequent trimming (and all have barcons because of it).
Perhaps the derailleur is doing something special? Maybe with the floating
top pulley? I don't know.

I later realized that Fred over on the 650B list rode the same bike
(literally the one I later bought) and made a similar observation:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/650b/6vYkUkoO_l4/T7gcNitEuC4J

Last note: This bike and derailleur only have a few hundred miles on them,
tops, so I can't speak to the longevity of this Microshift derailleur. But
it sure is working great now!


Reed


> On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 3:26:06 AM UTC-7, Daniel Jackson wrote:
>>
>> Clayton,
>>
>> Do you use Silvers to shift your 10 speeds?
>>
> --
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Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101

[Clayton.sf]

I don't use friction with 10 speed. Too fiddly especially when tired. That 
is not a function of the type of friction shifter though. 


For friction I use 8 speed drivetrains and for that the silvers are great. 
They don't slip if treated right. I am still amazed a bike shop can't make 
them work. Maybe they had a dud.

Clayton Scott,
SF


On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 3:26:06 AM UTC-7, Daniel Jackson wrote:
>
> Clayton,
>
> Do you use Silvers to shift your 10 speeds?
>

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Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101

[Clayton.sf]

Just to clarify,

The way I read the article I it was aimed at touring bikes (example shows a 
Hunq) and their appropriate gearing. My response too was aimed at touring 
bikes not modern carbon race bikes. Plenty of triple options for Rivbikes.

Clayton Scott
SF, CA





On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 5:37:24 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
> On 09/15/2016 11:45 PM, Clayton.sf wrote: 
> > 40t cogs are the domain of 1x gearing IMO, unless it is an academic 
> exercise or you are schlepping too much much gear. 22x40 - you would likely 
> be able to walk as fast. And... why not use at triple at that point. 
> Personally I like short cage derailers for dirt or none at all and don't go 
> beyond 36 in a cassette. 
>
> In the carbon frame 11 speed era, increasingly 40T sprockets are the 
> only way to get gears in the low 20s.  Triples aren't an option because 
> 1) there aren't many, if any, made for the type of bottom brackets used 
> on carbon road bikes; 2) integrated brake/shift levers don't do triples 
> (either at all, in the case of the higher group levels, or very 
> successfully); 3) even if you could change crank sets you are still 
> stuck with a 50T large chain ring on most of these bikes because the 
> front derailleur is mounted on a "braze-on" bracket whose adjustment 
> slot is made such that you can't lower the front derailleur at all.   
> Along with that 50T big ring comes a 34T small ring. 
>
> So where does this leave you?  34 x 32 is now the "standard" low gear, 
> and the lowest "road" groups offer.  With the 23mm tires these bikes 
> have, that's a 28" gear.  If you need lower than that, you've got to go 
> to larger sprockets, and the next larger sizes are 36 and 40 which give 
> you 25" and 22", respectively, and you've got to use one of the two 
> Wolftooth devices: Roadlink (which will let that 32T capable road rear 
> derailleur accommodate a 36T sprocket) or Tanpan, which will let you use 
> a Dynasys rear derailleur, which can handle 40T. 
>
> None of this is ideal, in that along with those 36 or 40T large 
> sprockets you get an 11T 1st position, and 50x11 gives you a 120" top 
> gear - and what anybody who needs a 25 or 22 inch low is going to do 
> with a 120" big gear I cannot imagine.  The next gear down with these 
> cassettes is a 50x13 which isn't so bad - 101" - so I imagine basically 
> you treat the 1st position sprocket as a spacer and forget you have 11 
> back there. 
>
> But basically, with those bikes that is all you can do. 
>

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Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101

[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/15/2016 11:45 PM, Clayton.sf wrote:

40t cogs are the domain of 1x gearing IMO, unless it is an academic exercise or 
you are schlepping too much much gear. 22x40 - you would likely be able to walk 
as fast. And... why not use at triple at that point. Personally I like short 
cage derailers for dirt or none at all and don't go beyond 36 in a cassette.


In the carbon frame 11 speed era, increasingly 40T sprockets are the 
only way to get gears in the low 20s.  Triples aren't an option because 
1) there aren't many, if any, made for the type of bottom brackets used 
on carbon road bikes; 2) integrated brake/shift levers don't do triples 
(either at all, in the case of the higher group levels, or very 
successfully); 3) even if you could change crank sets you are still 
stuck with a 50T large chain ring on most of these bikes because the 
front derailleur is mounted on a "braze-on" bracket whose adjustment 
slot is made such that you can't lower the front derailleur at all.  
Along with that 50T big ring comes a 34T small ring.


So where does this leave you?  34 x 32 is now the "standard" low gear, 
and the lowest "road" groups offer.  With the 23mm tires these bikes 
have, that's a 28" gear.  If you need lower than that, you've got to go 
to larger sprockets, and the next larger sizes are 36 and 40 which give 
you 25" and 22", respectively, and you've got to use one of the two 
Wolftooth devices: Roadlink (which will let that 32T capable road rear 
derailleur accommodate a 36T sprocket) or Tanpan, which will let you use 
a Dynasys rear derailleur, which can handle 40T.


None of this is ideal, in that along with those 36 or 40T large 
sprockets you get an 11T 1st position, and 50x11 gives you a 120" top 
gear - and what anybody who needs a 25 or 22 inch low is going to do 
with a 120" big gear I cannot imagine.  The next gear down with these 
cassettes is a 50x13 which isn't so bad - 101" - so I imagine basically 
you treat the 1st position sprocket as a spacer and forget you have 11 
back there.


But basically, with those bikes that is all you can do.

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Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101

[Daniel Jackson]

Clayton,

Do you use Silvers to shift your 10 speeds?

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Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101

[Bill in Roswell GA]

Just a guess on my part, but with the capability of modern materials and 
manufacturing techniques chains could be made to last much longer, but it 
would cost a whole lot more and there just isn't enough of a market for 
that to make it worthwhile. If I were going through 20-30 chains a year, it 
might matter, but the number of people doing that is minute and most of 
them have sponsorship of some kind. 

Cheers,
Bill in Roswell, GA riding without sponsorship (no book, no blog, no decals)

On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 6:09:14 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>
> Moving on to chain life: I get 2000 miles pretty consistently to 75% wear 
> on the Park tool with my $15 (6-8 years ago; now probably $20) SRAM chains, 
> keeping them waxed or, later, lubed with reputable dry lube every 200 miles 
> or so. Dust, very infrequent downpours, some dirt, mostly pavement, heavy 
> torque up hills.
>
> Does anyone have any idea why this should be so? It has been so long since 
> I measured wear rate on a chain used on a derailleur system -- I tend to 
> modify and replace before wear -- that I don't know what their life would 
> be. 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101

[Clayton.sf]

I have put 10s of thousands of miles on 10 speed chains and have had no issues. 
I generally replace chains every 2500 miles no matter what. Saves the drive 
train in the long run and chains are cheap. 10x are a female dog to friction 
shift, but my indexed setup stays good for thousands of miles after initial 
stretch is adjusted for. I have also successfully reused 10x masterlinks 
several times. It is only the Shimano pins that are a one way street but have 
not used a Shimano chain in years.

40t cogs are the domain of 1x gearing IMO, unless it is an academic exercise or 
you are schlepping too much much gear. 22x40 - you would likely be able to walk 
as fast. And... why not use at triple at that point. Personally I like short 
cage derailers for dirt or none at all and don't go beyond 36 in a cassette.

Regarding silver shifters - they are great if; you can't them them to work that 
is a user issue not a shifter issue.

Clayton Scott
SF, CA

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Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101

[Bill in Roswell GA]

Several years ago (which means likely 5 - the older I get the less relevant 
time becomes) Tour magazine had as objective a test as could be done with 
various chains for wear and usable chain life. For a couple of years the 
article was available on the web but that no longer seems to be the case.

Anyways, this was before 11 speed, so 10 speed was the norm. I don't 
remember 9 speed being tested. As I recall (perhaps someone's memory is 
better than mine), Shimano chains lasted longer than all other major 
brands, including SRAM, Campag, and KMC. Dura Ace came out the best, 
followed somewhat ironically by 105. Campag Record may have been next 
followed by Ultegra, then SRAM Red. 

I think there are too many variables to account for all when it comes to 
chain wear. Perhaps the more narrow the chain, the more important high 
quality machining comes into play. I've heard more than a few bike mechs 
say that SRAM upper end stuff gives up durability for lightness, so maybe 
there is something to the SRAM lower end chains lasting longer. 

One habit I've developed thanks to a riding buddy who is a bike mech of 25+ 
years: once I have to break a chain, I use a SRAM quick link to better 
enable chain cleaning, whether 7/8,9 or 10 speed. I use Shimano chains on 
10 speed (90% of my riding); which ever I can get cheaper on 7/8 and 9 
speed. Never had a problem with a quick link, nor can I say one brand lasts 
longer than another. Empirical evidence at the local bike shop says 11 
speed chains last as long as 10 speed chains. 

Fact is, I spend a lot more on tires than I do chains. Keep the chain 
clean, keep a bit of lube on it and spend more time riding and less time 
obsessing - the older I get, the better I become at following that advice!

Cheers,
Bill in Roswell, GA where fall is just around the corner but we're still 
waiting for summer to end

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Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101

[Patrick Moore]

I don't know. I've just heard it from riders who are not by any means
idiots. Those asserting this spoke of better materials but, as the Turkey
Vulture man said to me earlier, they may have been comparing dura ace 10 sp
apples to $15 SRAM oranges.

As for masterlinks, let me assert here and now and forevermore that a 8
speed SRAM link works fine in a (well, this was a circa 2003 model) Connex
chain -- if you are running a single rear cog.

FWIW, said Connex 10 sp chain came with its own reusable masterlink, which
I used on my '03 in its first incarnation as a 1X10 gofast.

Moving on to chain life: I get 2000 miles pretty consistently to 75% wear
on the Park tool with my $15 (6-8 years ago; now probably $20) SRAM chains,
keeping them waxed or, later, lubed with reputable dry lube every 200 miles
or so. Dust, very infrequent downpours, some dirt, mostly pavement, heavy
torque up hills.

Does anyone have any idea why this should be so? It has been so long since
I measured wear rate on a chain used on a derailleur system -- I tend to
modify and replace before wear -- that I don't know what their life would
be.



On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 3:12 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

>
> On 09/15/2016 05:01 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> You can believe that I've heard others say that, but perhaps they are
> wrong.
>
>
> Anything is possible, of course, but is it likely that thinner sprockets
> and chains would last longer than thicker ones?  Or that systems that
> demand close tolerances would work better in adverse conditions than those
> with less close tolerances?  It just goes against common experience.
>
> Also, up to 9 speed master links are re-usable; I've heard that 10 and
> above are not.  If true, that means owners of 10 and above speed systems
> cannot remove chains for frequent immersion in degreaser and re-lubing, as
> I do with my 7, 8 and 9 speed systems.  I find keeping the chain clean and
> lubricated makes possible the long service I enjoy, and I know from years
> of trying to do it with Shimano break-away replacement pin systems that
> cleaning the chain on the bike, instead of removing it and dunking it in a
> can of mineral spirits as I do now, that on-the-bike chain cleaning is too
> time consuming and too messy.   (And of course, you can forget the paraffin
> treatment, if you'd been so inclined.)
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
>
>>
>> On 09/15/2016 12:44 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>>> Very interesting. What do others say about the longevity of 10 speed (or
>>> for that matter, 11 or 12 speed) systems? (This is perhaps moot, because
>>> your system calls for friction shifting, but I've heard quite a few say
>>> that 10 is actually more durable than 9. Is that true?
>>>
>>
>> I can't believe that.  I've seen too much over the years on the forums
>> saying that 10 speed chains last no more than 1-2000 miles, while I
>> routinely get several times that on my 9 speed drive trains.
>>
>>
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Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101

[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/15/2016 05:01 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:
You can believe that I've heard others say that, but perhaps they are 
wrong.


Anything is possible, of course, but is it likely that thinner sprockets 
and chains would last longer than thicker ones?  Or that systems that 
demand close tolerances would work better in adverse conditions than 
those with less close tolerances?  It just goes against common experience.


Also, up to 9 speed master links are re-usable; I've heard that 10 and 
above are not.  If true, that means owners of 10 and above speed systems 
cannot remove chains for frequent immersion in degreaser and re-lubing, 
as I do with my 7, 8 and 9 speed systems.  I find keeping the chain 
clean and lubricated makes possible the long service I enjoy, and I know 
from years of trying to do it with Shimano break-away replacement pin 
systems that cleaning the chain on the bike, instead of removing it and 
dunking it in a can of mineral spirits as I do now, that on-the-bike 
chain cleaning is too time consuming and too messy.   (And of course, 
you can forget the paraffin treatment, if you'd been so inclined.)




On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Steve Palincsar > wrote:



On 09/15/2016 12:44 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:

Very interesting. What do others say about the longevity of 10
speed (or for that matter, 11 or 12 speed) systems? (This is
perhaps moot, because your system calls for friction shifting,
but I've heard quite a few say that 10 is actually more
durable than 9. Is that true?


I can't believe that.  I've seen too much over the years on the
forums saying that 10 speed chains last no more than 1-2000 miles,
while I routinely get several times that on my 9 speed drive trains.



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Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101

[Patrick Moore]

You can believe that I've heard others say that, but perhaps they are wrong.

On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

>
> On 09/15/2016 12:44 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> Very interesting. What do others say about the longevity of 10 speed (or
>> for that matter, 11 or 12 speed) systems? (This is perhaps moot, because
>> your system calls for friction shifting, but I've heard quite a few say
>> that 10 is actually more durable than 9. Is that true?
>>
>
> I can't believe that.  I've seen too much over the years on the forums
> saying that 10 speed chains last no more than 1-2000 miles, while I
> routinely get several times that on my 9 speed drive trains.
>
>
> --
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Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101

[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/15/2016 12:44 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:
Very interesting. What do others say about the longevity of 10 speed 
(or for that matter, 11 or 12 speed) systems? (This is perhaps moot, 
because your system calls for friction shifting, but I've heard quite 
a few say that 10 is actually more durable than 9. Is that true?


I can't believe that.  I've seen too much over the years on the forums 
saying that 10 speed chains last no more than 1-2000 miles, while I 
routinely get several times that on my 9 speed drive trains.



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Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101

[Patrick Moore]

Very interesting. What do others say about the longevity of 10 speed (or
for that matter, 11 or 12 speed) systems? (This is perhaps moot, because
your system calls for friction shifting, but I've heard quite a few say
that 10 is actually more durable than 9. Is that true?

Regarding the flat plate fd: also very interesting. I installed an
admittedly weird 26/40/44 triple on my Matthews (Long story, but involves
OCD, a lot of both road and dirt riding and a theory about a High range for
road and  Low-[er] range for dirt roads; and components at hand -- and this
may be changed eventually to a 42/26 double) and for other reasons (OCD
again, and the "*road bike* for dirt" conceit) I used Dura Ace 7410 f and
rear derailleurs and a home brew 15-30 9 sp cassette. The second of the 2
DA fds has enough throw for the Bontrager mtb crank (after I cut off the
limit tab) and shifts quite well while avoiding hitting the chain stay. (If
I go to a double, I'll have to revert to the earlier DA fd with shorter
throw).

Finally, Silvers: I disagree. They don't slip if you locktite the bolts,
and because they no longer need adjusting mid ride, I dumped the little
ring bolts and installed M4 button head bolts held in place with blue
loctite. No loosening over the long term, with both Fargo and Matthews. In
fact, I've found that the Suntours Power Ratchts slipped as readily as the
Silvers, loctite apart, and old Campy R are impossible -- they have for a
long time been notorious for slipping; again, loctite fixes the problem.
And, I never had Retrofrictions slip at all. The old Dura Ace slipped and
in any event have very limited throw; the later 7 speed indexed Suntour
ones, run in friction, don't slip and can handle 8+ if you judiciously file
the pod.

The possible problem with the Silvers is the little plastic washer which
tends to crack. Also, the Silver pods will rather easily crack if the bike
falls over and lands on one.

On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 7:47 AM, Gravel & Grind Espresso + Bikes <
gravelandgr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Just posted up a fairly in depth explanation of Gravel & Grind's Turkey
> Vulture gearing.  Basically it's a gearing system in search of a wider than
> commercially available gearing, with more durability and lower cost than
> contemporary gearing solutions.  Read on here
> .  I don't check the
> forum super often (actually rarely at best) so if you have questions about
> it, email me.  James (at) gravelandgrind (dot) com.
>
> We have this set up on a few Riv's in the shop, including my Hunq, an in
> progress customer Hunq, and an Atlantis.
>
>
> 
>
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**
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[RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101

[Gravel & Grind Espresso + Bikes]

Just posted up a fairly in depth explanation of Gravel & Grind's Turkey 
Vulture gearing.  Basically it's a gearing system in search of a wider than 
commercially available gearing, with more durability and lower cost than 
contemporary gearing solutions.  Read on here 
.  I don't check the 
forum super often (actually rarely at best) so if you have questions about 
it, email me.  James (at) gravelandgrind (dot) com.

We have this set up on a few Riv's in the shop, including my Hunq, an in 
progress customer Hunq, and an Atlantis.  



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