Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

.com.au Cc: OpenStreetMap-AU Mailing List Subject: Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths I did my best to help Sebastian, but near the point where we got the first launch of JOSM (he DID install Java, he DID have to move the .jar file to his Applications folder, he apparently was NOT using a

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

> -Original Message- > From: stevea mailto:stevea...@softworkers.com>> > Sent: Wednesday, 13 October 2021 14:13 > To: fors...@ozonline.com.au <mailto:fors...@ozonline.com.au> > Cc: OpenStreetMap-AU Mailing List <mailto:talk-au@openstreetmap.org>> > S

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

On Oct 12, 2021, at 11:08 PM, Adam Horan wrote: > Is this something that could be pushed to maproulette? Not as reversions, but > tasks to validate or update OSM entries that match a pattern - eg edited by > this user and now has bicycle=no, highway=footway etc? I don’t want to say “absolute no

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

>> >> Have we got any experts in that? >> >> -Original Message- >> From: stevea >> Sent: Wednesday, 13 October 2021 14:13 >> To: fors...@ozonline.com.au >> Cc: OpenStreetMap-AU Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victor

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

t? > > -Original Message- > From: stevea > Sent: Wednesday, 13 October 2021 14:13 > To: fors...@ozonline.com.au > Cc: OpenStreetMap-AU Mailing List > Subject: Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths > > I did my best to help Sebastian, but near the point where we

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

r 2021 14:13 To: fors...@ozonline.com.au Cc: OpenStreetMap-AU Mailing List Subject: Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths I did my best to help Sebastian, but near the point where we got the first launch of JOSM (he DID install Java, he DID have to move the .jar file to his Applications folder, he

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

Hi all There are 15,000 changes to consider over 651 changesets Does this sound OK? Start reversions at his #641 Revert in this order: Sebastian's Changeset #comment 641 112030682#Changing shared paths to foothpaths 640 111889860#updates to cycling permission 639 111889673#

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

I did my best to help Sebastian, but near the point where we got the first launch of JOSM (he DID install Java, he DID have to move the .jar file to his Applications folder, he apparently was NOT using a capital A in Applications...) he suddenly went "radio silent" on me and didn't answer any m

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

Adam Spotting these and knowing how far back to revert to might be tricky I guess? eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/47771844/history Yes. I have never been involved in a reversion so complex and it worries me too. I presume they should be reverted in reverse date order, ie most recent

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

I can't help with JOSM on mac, or with reverting specifically. I would suggest caution with the reversion process though, there are plenty of ways that have been edited multiple times by HighRouleur. Spotting these and knowing how far back to revert to might be tricky I guess? eg https://www.opens

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

Thanks Steve, This is the error I get from Finder. I’m running the latest BigSur MacOSX. regards, Sebastian > On 13 Oct 2021, at 1:39 pm, stevea wrote: > > Sebastian, I'd be willing to help you off-list get your (alas, Intel-based > only) macOS running JOSM. It starts with downloadin

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

Sebastian, I'd be willing to help you off-list get your (alas, Intel-based only) macOS running JOSM. It starts with downloading a JRE (Java Runtime Environment) from here: https://java.com/en/download/apple.jsp After success with that, please send me an email and we can go from there (Califor

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

Hi Sebastian wants to assist with correction of his tagging errors, I recommended the JOSM reverter plugin. However at https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/111016252 he writes: "I tried to install JOSM but it’s not signed for the latest Mac OSX so won’t let me install it" Can a M

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

On 5/10/21 8:53 pm, Kim Oldfield via Talk-au wrote: Hi Adam, On 5/10/21 10:23 am, Adam Horan wrote: Hi Kim, highway = pedestrian is for pedestrianised roads/areas rather then footpaths/sidewalks/pavements for those I think the current tag is highway=footway. I only included highway=pedestria

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

ut what is a road or road related area in Victoria, someone will have to do an exhaustive search of the Government Gazette. *From:*Matthew Seale *Sent:* Sunday, 3 October 2021 14:18 *To:* Sebastian Azagra ; talk-au@openstreetmap.org *Subject:* Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths The full v

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

On 5/10/21 2:57 pm, Sebastian Azagra Flores via Talk-au wrote: I was referring to working within OSM and seeing brown dotted vs blue dotted lines for a path. Pardon. But OSM is a data base, not really a map. The "default OSM map" is a guide as to what a map might look like to be used by mapp

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

On Mon, 4 Oct 2021 at 23:48, Kim Oldfield via Talk-au < talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > Hi Andrew and list, > > How do we go about formalising these decisions? Is there a vote process, > or does someone take it upon themselves to document in the wiki any > consensus we reach on this list? > P

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

Sebastian Now that the DWG has made a ruling on bicycle=no, I am keen to restore Birdsland's bike paths. The Shire of Yarra Ranges, the owner, is proud of them https://www.yarraranges.vic.gov.au/Experience/Parks-Recreation/Birdsland-Reserve and list bicycle paths among its features, further s

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

Hi Adam, On 5/10/21 10:23 am, Adam Horan wrote: Hi Kim, highway = pedestrian is for pedestrianised roads/areas rather then footpaths/sidewalks/pavements for those I think the current tag is highway=footway. I only included highway=pedestrian as it is part of https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wik

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

Sent: Tuesday, 5 October 2021 2:37 PM To: Sebastian Azagra Flores Cc: OpenStreetMap-AU Mailing List Subject: Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths Ah well I don't see much difference between =yes and =designated, but to others there's a clear difference. 😊 Given the other re

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

I was referring to working within OSM and seeing brown dotted vs blue dotted lines for a path. If you see a blue shared paths in OSM then you know that that bikes are allowed by default , however if a footpath allows bicycles then you would need to see the tags associated with it to know the pe

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

Ah well I don't see much difference between =yes and =designated, but to others there's a clear difference. 😊 Given the other responses it seems that =designated is the preference for shared paths. As for *"Visually it’s much easier to see a shared path rather than to review the tags for permissio

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

Hi Adam Interesting to see your thoughts below in relation to Victoria. My point all along has been bikes are not permitted on footy paths used signed as allowed or should it be a shared path instead? In which case is there a preference in using footpath with the tags highway=footway + bicyc

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

If there is a sign, then it’s =designated, not =yes From: Adam Horan Sent: Tuesday, 5 October 2021 09:24 To: Kim Oldfield ; OpenStreetMap-AU Mailing List Subject: Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths Hi Kim, highway = pedestrian is for pedestrianised roads/areas rather then

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

October 2021 8:49 PMTo: Sebastian Azagra FloresCc: Philip Mallis; OSM Australian Talk ListSubject: Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths On Mon, 4 Oct 2021 at 18:18, Sebastian Azagra Flores via Talk-au <talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote:The question is when is a foothpath with bicycles=yes cons

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

Hi Kim, highway = pedestrian is for pedestrianised roads/areas rather then footpaths/sidewalks/pavements for those I think the current tag is highway=footway. bridleway isn't in use in Australia much for the path types we're discussing here. I'd prefer a normal footpath to be highway=footway - and

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

On Mon, 4 Oct 2021 at 22:48, Kim Oldfield via Talk-au < talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > highway=bridleway - bicycle=yes, foot=yes. I don't know enough about bridleways in Australia to have an opinion on this. Either do I, but these could possibly be left as unspecified, because it would / may

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

Hi Andrew and list, How do we go about formalising these decisions? Is there a vote process, or does someone take it upon themselves to document in the wiki any consensus we reach on this list? We should document in the wiki when to add bicycle= and foot= tags which duplicate the default val

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

With my DWG hat on, to summarise it looks like Graeme, Tony, Thorsten, Kim all advocate for not blanket tagging bicycle=no to every normal footpath (for the record I also support this, an explicit bicycle=no can still be tagged where signage is indicating such). Matthew has pointed out cases where

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

On Mon, 4 Oct 2021 at 18:18, Sebastian Azagra Flores via Talk-au < talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > The question is when is a foothpath with bicycles=yes considered a shared > path? > Should a shared paths be used over footpath=yes ? > >From my NSW perspective, shared paths are always tagged a

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

t;Re: Contents of Talk-au digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > >1. Re: Cycling on Victorian paths (Graeme Fitzpatrick) >2. Re: Cycling on Victorian paths (Philip Mallis) >3. Re: Cycling on Victorian paths (Andy Townsend) >

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Talk-au digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > >1. Re: Cycling on Victorian paths (Graeme Fitzpatrick) > >2. Re: Cycling on Victorian paths (Philip Mallis) > >3. Re: Cycling on Victor

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

On Mon, 4 Oct 2021 at 11:05, Andy Townsend wrote: > Perhaps raise that at https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues ? Done! Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

t; > (which should also apply to "don't map for the [broken] router"). > > -Original Message- > From: fors...@ozonline.com.au > Sent: Sunday, 3 October 2021 16:34 > To: Kim Oldfield ; Kim Oldfield via Talk-au > > Subject: Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian pa

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

Hi all, (not sure why my previous message didn’t come through). I’m a mapper and a transport planner who deals a lot with this issue in my work. To clarify, VicPol are not the authority on what is or isn’t permitted on a path. What is signed ‘on the ground’ and in the legislation (Victorian Road Ru

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

On 03/10/2021 22:52, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: In that case, the definitions in iD probably need to be updated / changed, as when you're mapping any form of highway=*, the "Allowed Access" options & explanations include designated: "Access allowed according to signs or specific local laws". P

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

> > -Original Message-> From: fors...@ozonline.com.au > Sent: Sunday, 3 October 2021 16:34> To: Kim Oldfield ; Kim Oldfield via Talk-au> > Subject: Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths> > Hi all> > I am thinking that unless we pay a lawyer and get a lega

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

Thanks for that, Andy. In that case, the definitions in iD probably need to be updated / changed, as when you're mapping any form of highway=*, the "Allowed Access" options & explanations include designated: "Access allowed according to signs or specific local laws". Thanks Graeme Thanks Graem

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

On 03/10/2021 04:00, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: I would think it should be bicycle=designated, which means that signage & local laws would then apply? (on the very narrow question of what "bicycle=designated" means in OSM) "=designated" is a somewhat confusingly named tag - it sounds like

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

[broken] router"). > > -Original Message- > From: fors...@ozonline.com.au > Sent: Sunday, 3 October 2021 16:34 > To: Kim Oldfield ; Kim Oldfield via Talk-au > > Subject: Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths > > Hi all > > I am thinking that un

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

Hi Kim, Some of the feedback I have received relates to changing shared paths to footpaths. According to the access restrictions listed on (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access_restrictions#Australia

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

ssage- From: fors...@ozonline.com.au Sent: Sunday, 3 October 2021 16:34 To: Kim Oldfield ; Kim Oldfield via Talk-au Subject: Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths Hi all I am thinking that unless we pay a lawyer and get a legal opinion we will never be sure what the law is. Given that unce

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

n your information to some undesired third party, and it allows me to block the whole email address at the mail server level if it becomes a major spam vector.) From: Kim Oldfield via Talk-au Sent: Sunday, 3 October 2021 15:36 To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Vic

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

Hi all I am thinking that unless we pay a lawyer and get a legal opinion we will never be sure what the law is. Given that uncertainty we have two principles to choose from, I'll call them the "precautionary principle" and the "somebody else's problem" principle. (Maybe better called the

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

On 3/10/21 9:13 am, Sebastian Azagra via Talk-au wrote: In my view, some of the data in OSM is incorrect as a footpath will some times have permission bicycle=yes which is incorrect. The majority of the time allowed access will have bicycle=unspecified (not defined)which I think is fine. The is

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

area in Victoria, someone will have to do an exhaustive search of the Government Gazette. From: Matthew Seale Sent: Sunday, 3 October 2021 14:18 To: Sebastian Azagra ; talk-au@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths The full version of the Victorian Road rules

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

>>> In addition there is Karl Cheng's opinion (Mon Sep 20 talk-au) that "this whole "Road Rules" regulation only applies to "roads" and "road related areas". Only footpaths adjacent to a "road", or any path explicitly designated for cyclists are considered to be "road related areas". See rules 11-1

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

Hi Tony Advice from Vic Police has only been verbal. They won’t go into writing. I verified this with a friend of mine who is a cop. They referred me to the penalties listed on the Vic Roads websites that carries a $545 fine for riding on a footpath. This information is freely available.

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

ubject: Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths Hi Sebastian Welcome to talk-au A NOTE FOR NON-AUSTRALIANS reading this a UK pavement or a US sidewalk is an Australian footpath I

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

regulation that extends the Victorian footpath cycling restrictions to other paths away from areas adjacent to roads. Regards Matthew From: Sebastian Azagra via Talk-au Sent: Sunday, 3 October 2021 9:18 AM To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org Subject: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths Hi there

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

Hi Sebastian Welcome to talk-au A NOTE FOR NON-AUSTRALIANS reading this a UK pavement or a US sidewalk is an Australian footpath I agree with Graeme Fitzpatrick's opinion tha

Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

On Sun, 3 Oct 2021 at 08:17, Sebastian Azagra via Talk-au < talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > the strict rules the cyclists must follow and not ride on footpaths due to > Victorian Road Rules. Victorian cyclists know that we are not permitted to > ride of footpaths. > Not arguing with you but:

[talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

Hi there, I’m starting a new thread in relation to recent discussion regarding access on footpaths which have bicycle=No In the Melbourne Bikepath cycling community there has been vigorous discussion relating to the strict rules the cyclists must follow and not ride on footpaths due to Victori