Re: [9fans] audio standards -- too many to choose from
> but I argue it's exactly right. > PCM is the native hardware sample format and is > basically the "uncompress bitmap" of the audio world. makes perfect sense.
Re: [9fans] Thrift RPC
> it all seems to hark back to the days > mainframers put disk addresses in their data. Never mind disk addresses. We used to put whole channel programs into our data. How else would you implement a fast disk search without bothering the CPU? Just build a self-grepping file ...
Re: [9fans] Thrift RPC
2009/8/13 Roman Shaposhnik : > Am I totally missing something or hasn't been the binary RPC > of that style been dead ever since SUNRPC? Hasn't the eulogy > been delivered by CORBA? Haven't folks realized that S-exprs > are really quite good for data serialization in the heterogeneous > environments (especially when they are called JSON) i'm not familiar with Thrift, but i've done some stuff with google protobufs, from which i think Thrift is inspired. speaking of protobufs, i don't think they're a bad idea. they're specifically designed to deal with forward- and backward-compatibility, which is something you don't automatically get with s-expressions, and if you're dealing with many identically-typed records, the fact that each field in each record is not string-tagged counts saves a lot of bandwidth (and makes them more compressible, too). we don't use text for 9p, do we? > and you > really shouldn't be made to figure out how large is the integer > on a host foo? ?
[9fans] usbd error message
I managed to reproduce the error in Bochs, the only thing I did was turning on the USB support in the emulator (usb_uhci: enabled=1). Startup: pcirouting: BIOS workaround: PCI.0.1.3 at pin 1 link 96 irq 11 -> 9 #u/usb/ep1.0: uhci: port 0xC020 irq 9 256M memory: 105M kernel data, 151M user, 576M swap usbd...root is from (tcp, local)[local!#S/sdC0/fossil]: The error message: usb/usbd: opendevdata: /dev/usb/ep1.0: '/dev/usb/ep1.0/data' device or object already in use usb/usbd: /dev/usb/ep1.0: '/dev/usb/ep1.0/data' device or object already in use Do you know what happened? Greetings: Béla
Re: [9fans] Plan 9 hg with private repositories
> > Presumably this is because ssh is sshv1 > but bitbucket requires sshv2. > > Russ > Correct me if I am wrong, but an sshv2 server is also providing sshv1 too. Maybe when the Plan 9 ssh client is facing sshv2, instead of shutting down with an error, it should try sshv1, or wait until its offered, i am unsure about the mechanism here. Just an idea, I am really not an expert here. Greetings: Béla
[9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
So, I was browsing around the other day looking at Acme resources, and I discovered an old post from 1995 wherein someone advocated the use of proportional fonts for programming in Acme. This surprised me, to say the least. He even went as far as to mention that SML was the language they were using, and had managed to get a decent indenting pattern for it that was just as readable, without messing things up for proportional font users. I have to admit that I'm a bit skeptical about whether such a technique actually works, and so, I thought I would pose some questions to you. Firstly, how many of you using Acme for programming on a daily basis remap your fonts so that the fixed width font is the main one that you use? Secondly, if you do use proportional width fonts, why, and what troubles did you encounter; what benefits did you encounter? Thirdly, would you continue using proportional width fonts in cases like Lisp code, where you very often see something like the following indentation scheme, and how would you resolve these indentation problems with proportional width fonts if you did continue to use them? (let ([foo bar] [something else]) (some-func (called again) (with fun indentation) (and yet) (another))) Thanks! Aaron W. Hsu -- Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. -- C. S. Lewis
Re: [9fans] usbd error message
Are you sure you're not running two usbds? Can send a listing of your process table? On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Bela Valek wrote: > I managed to reproduce the error in Bochs, the only thing I did was > turning on the USB support in the emulator (usb_uhci: enabled=1). > > Startup: > pcirouting: BIOS workaround: PCI.0.1.3 at pin 1 link 96 irq 11 -> 9 > #u/usb/ep1.0: uhci: port 0xC020 irq 9 > 256M memory: 105M kernel data, 151M user, 576M swap > usbd...root is from (tcp, local)[local!#S/sdC0/fossil]: > > The error message: > usb/usbd: opendevdata: /dev/usb/ep1.0: '/dev/usb/ep1.0/data' device or > object already in use > usb/usbd: /dev/usb/ep1.0: '/dev/usb/ep1.0/data' device or object already in > use > > Do you know what happened? > > Greetings: Béla > >
Re: [9fans] usbd error message
Logged in with 'none': none 910:00 0:00 356K Sleepusbd none 920:00 0:00 356K Preadusbd none 930:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd none 940:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd Logged in with 'glenda': glenda50:00 0:00 356K Sleepusbd glenda60:00 0:00 356K Preadusbd glenda70:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd glenda80:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd Its a default install, nothing was modified. 2009/8/13 Noah Evans : > Are you sure you're not running two usbds? Can send a listing of your > process table? > > On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Bela Valek wrote: >> I managed to reproduce the error in Bochs, the only thing I did was >> turning on the USB support in the emulator (usb_uhci: enabled=1). >> >> Startup: >> pcirouting: BIOS workaround: PCI.0.1.3 at pin 1 link 96 irq 11 -> 9 >> #u/usb/ep1.0: uhci: port 0xC020 irq 9 >> 256M memory: 105M kernel data, 151M user, 576M swap >> usbd...root is from (tcp, local)[local!#S/sdC0/fossil]: >> >> The error message: >> usb/usbd: opendevdata: /dev/usb/ep1.0: '/dev/usb/ep1.0/data' device or >> object already in use >> usb/usbd: /dev/usb/ep1.0: '/dev/usb/ep1.0/data' device or object already in >> use >> >> Do you know what happened? >> >> Greetings: Béla >> >> > >
Re: [9fans] Plan 9 hg with private repositories
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 11:13:58 +0200 Bela Valek wrote: > Correct me if I am wrong, but an sshv2 server is also providing sshv1 > too. I vaguely remember reading that some ssh software would refuse to work with ssh v1 by default because v1 is so insecure. -- Ethan Grammatikidis Those who are slower at parsing information must necessarily be faster at problem-solving.
Re: [9fans] usbd error message
Okay, could you run: echo 'stacks()' | acid -l thread On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Bela Valek wrote: > Logged in with 'none': > > none 91 0:00 0:00 356K Sleep usbd > none 92 0:00 0:00 356K Pread usbd > none 93 0:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd > none 94 0:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd > > Logged in with 'glenda': > > glenda 5 0:00 0:00 356K Sleep usbd > glenda 6 0:00 0:00 356K Pread usbd > glenda 7 0:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd > glenda 8 0:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd > > Its a default install, nothing was modified. > > 2009/8/13 Noah Evans : >> Are you sure you're not running two usbds? Can send a listing of your >> process table? >> >> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Bela Valek wrote: >>> I managed to reproduce the error in Bochs, the only thing I did was >>> turning on the USB support in the emulator (usb_uhci: enabled=1). >>> >>> Startup: >>> pcirouting: BIOS workaround: PCI.0.1.3 at pin 1 link 96 irq 11 -> 9 >>> #u/usb/ep1.0: uhci: port 0xC020 irq 9 >>> 256M memory: 105M kernel data, 151M user, 576M swap >>> usbd...root is from (tcp, local)[local!#S/sdC0/fossil]: >>> >>> The error message: >>> usb/usbd: opendevdata: /dev/usb/ep1.0: '/dev/usb/ep1.0/data' device or >>> object already in use >>> usb/usbd: /dev/usb/ep1.0: '/dev/usb/ep1.0/data' device or object already in >>> use >>> >>> Do you know what happened? >>> >>> Greetings: Béla >>> >>> >> >> > >
[9fans] silly Q
hi all, what is the reason why the dir structure of /usr/xxx does not follow that of / (according to namespace(4)), please? e.g., /386/bin, /386/lib, /386/include, /rc/bin, /rc/lib, but, /usr/glenda/bin/386, /usr/glenda/bin/mips, /usr/glenda/bin/rc. thanks, ++pac.
Re: [9fans] Thrift RPC
The software industry is the ultimate recreation of Sisyphus' curse. uriel On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 8:49 AM, Daniel Lyons wrote: > > On Aug 12, 2009, at 9:56 PM, erik quanstrom wrote: > >> if we're going back there, just take me out back and shoot me now. >> i want to remember some progress in computer science. > > > The principal joy I derive from using Plan 9 (and I am quite new) is that it > is so well architected. By day I am a web developer (when I'm employed) and > I am just thoroughly sickened by the industry. It seems to me that at some > point, the cool guys that beat me up in middle school somehow insinuated > their way into technology and have hijacked everything. Currently they seem > to be proceeding to reinvent the same things over and over again, on top of > their own reinventions, for no particular gain except to make new jargon and > get their name on the latest version. It's hard to even maintain a portfolio > of work one's done when the lifespan of a website is dwindling to one year > or six months. And that certainly reduces the incentive to give it > everything you've got and make something really good. > > I was curious about ICE, because it seemed like they actually took CORBA and > said, what would this look like if it were implemented by engineers rather > than a committee? But I don't think the problem facing the world is "how do > I integrate all these languages, possibly over the network?" but rather "how > do I minimize all of this fucking complexity and still get things done?" > XML-RPC and SOAP are answers to stupid questions, which is why we have REST, > but the joke is that none of the technologies that it relies on are even > implemented enough by their own specifications such that it can really be > used. It strikes me as ludicrous that you can go make a new Rails app and > have to write by hand (or find someone's plugin) to create a login system > for you, which won't even happen on the HTTP level (which supports it), or > the RDBMS level (which also supports it), or the OS level (which again > supports it.) How many times do we have to write username/password logins > before we're done and we can fucking can move on? It's not like anything is > really different at any of these levels, just the way the bytes get handed > around. Then you have to be sure to use a database abstraction layer, > because everyone seems to have forgotten that the database *is* an > abstraction layer—this fact got lost in the shuffle as it became too complex > for anyone to really understand completely. Yet nobody seems to be worried > that the same thing might happen to their little project as they pile code > upon code and it slowly swells up just like everything that came before or > that it depends on. Before long, they need an abstraction layer for their > abstraction layer! Then the schmucks come along and complain about > performance and demand to be taught every dirty trick to take their barely > useful code and remove all the clarity from it in the name of a performance. > Software is cancer. > > I don't know how long you've been a programmer, Erik, but I'm sure it's far > longer than I. From my perspective, no, there is no progress in computer > science, we're spending all our time trying to climb out of the same muddy > hole we've been in since Dijkstra was a newlywed and Knuth was writing for > MAD Magazine. CS has such advanced amnesia that it can't remember what > prompted the last question it was asked and so it just repeats the question > to itself over and over, never really aware that it isn't an answer. We dig > and dig but the problem only gets worse because digging doesn't get you out > of a muddy hole. > > The things that keep me going are the pleasure I get from knowing a lot of > obscure stuff, talking to intelligent, knowledgeable people such as comprise > this mailing list, and (oddly) writing SQL. I wouldn't say I have much hope > for the industry in general unless there's some sort of major restructuring. > I try not to make that my problem and instead share the things I know about > with people I think might benefit. So consider this the opposite of being > flamed. I feel exactly the same way you do. I hope that in some time I will > be doing as much for the good as you and others on this list that carry the > Plan 9 torch and endure my stupid questions (and now my rants.) > > — > Daniel Lyons > > >
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
I always use proportional, 10 years ish now I always use tabs not spaces for indenting I don't remember it ever being a problem, certainly not one unsolved by clicking on Font
Re: [9fans] Plan 9 hg with private repositories
2009/8/13 Bela Valek : >> >> Presumably this is because ssh is sshv1 >> but bitbucket requires sshv2. >> >> Russ >> > > Correct me if I am wrong, but an sshv2 server is also providing sshv1 > too. Maybe when the Plan 9 ssh client is facing sshv2, instead of > shutting down with an error, it should try sshv1, or wait until its > offered, i am unsure about the mechanism here. Just an idea, I am > really not an expert here. OpenSSH can support v1 and v2, whether it is configured to is a local option. man sshd_config : Protocol Specifies the protocol versions sshd(8) supports. The possible values are ‘1’ and ‘2’. Multiple versions must be comma-separated. The default is “2,1”. Note that the order of the protocol list does not indicate preference, because the client selects among multiple protocol versions offered by the server. Specifying “2,1” is identical to “1,2”. : The /etc/ssh/sshd_config supplied by default with many (most?) linux distributions seems to be configured to only allow v2. If you're the administrator or on good terms with the admin. you may be able to reconfigure your SSH to allow v1 connections, otherwise get to work on the p9 ssh v2 port. > Greetings: Béla -- Adrian
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
"Aaron W. Hsu" writes:
> Secondly, if you do use proportional width fonts, why, and what
> troubles did you encounter; what benefits did you encounter?
You can't very well engage in weird formatting tricks, but I'm not much
a fan of those anyway. IMO, the more attractive letters and generally
lesser character width more than make up for the inability to precisely
align columns that don't contain whitespace. I just use tabs to give
myself a semantic clue.
> Thirdly, would you continue using proportional width fonts in cases
> like Lisp code, where you very often see something like the following
> indentation scheme,
No. Lisp indentation is hairy enough that I'd rather have the editor do
it anyway (I'll take a structure editor too, if you please), so Acme is
right out. Lisp code is so structurally complex that the indentation
scheme I use in C doesn't work so well. I really want arguments to a
function to begin at the same column, and for macro bodies to be
indented by two characters precisely, so I don't get hopelessly lost. I
just go on back to Emacs for Lisp coding.
> and how would you resolve these indentation problems with proportional
> width fonts if you did continue to use them?
I'd make leading spaces inherit their width from the characters above.
(let ((foo bar)
(something else))
(some-func (called again)
(with fun indentation)
(and yet)
(another)))
So in this example, the first space on line two would have the width of
"(", the second the width of an "l", and so on. But the space in
"something else" uses whatever width is defined in the font, since
spacing would get weird otherwise.
You couldn't do
(let ((foo bar)
(something else))
...)
and expect proper alignment, but like I said, I don't like that trick
anyway.
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
2009/8/13 Aaron W. Hsu : > Firstly, how many of you using Acme for programming on a daily basis remap > your fonts so that the fixed width font is the main one that you use? i use proportional fonts in acme for programming. > Secondly, if you do use proportional width fonts, why, and what troubles did > you encounter; what benefits did you encounter? i use them because they're more readable, and i get more characters per line than in a similarly sized fixed-width font. in C-like syntax, everything works just fine; a single tab character is ideal for indentation. use of tabs other than at the start of a line won't guarantee alignment with other fonts, but this rarely matters too much. in LISP, i sometimes ended up using a fixed-width font, due to the convention of aligning a subform with part of its parent, as you point out. variable-width fonts can work ok in lisp, although the indentation tends to end up slightly non-standard (although still passable). in haskell, i used proportional spacing with single-tab indentation, and it worked just fine apart from, AFAIR, multiple assignments for a single let - i just always used let...in. > Thirdly, would you continue using proportional width fonts in cases like > Lisp code, where you very often see something like the following indentation > scheme, and how would you resolve these indentation problems with > proportional width fonts if you did continue to use them? > > (let ([foo bar] > [something else]) > (some-func (called again) > (with fun indentation) > (and yet) > (another))) i presume you meant this: (let ([foo bar] [something else]) (some-func (called again) (with fun indentation) (and yet) (another))) using a varwidth font, i'd format this as: (let ([foo bar] [something else]) (some-func (called again) (with fun indentation) (and yet) (another))) (note 4-space indent, not 2-space indent for the some-func arguments. not perfect, but ok, i reckon) i found unlike macros, functions rarely need multiline continuation, but i think the case is arguable. as i said, i've done it both ways. PS. i'd really like to see an acme-integrated lisp environment. one of these years i'll get around to it...
Re: [9fans] usbd error message
First of all, i missed some pids, the total number of usbd processes is 8: glenda50:00 0:00 356K Sleepusbd glenda60:00 0:00 356K Preadusbd glenda70:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd glenda80:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd glenda 950:00 0:00 356K Sleepusbd glenda 960:00 0:00 356K Preadusbd glenda 970:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd glenda 980:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd processes 5 - 8 give this an output like this: term% echo 'stacks()' | acid -l thread 5 /proc/5/text:386 plan 9 executable /sys/lib/acid/port /sys/lib/acid/386 /sys/lib/acid/thread:1: (error) pushfile: /sys/src/libthread/sched.acid: '/sys/src/libthread/sched.acid' does not exist no symbol information acid: :2: (error) no function stacks acid: echo kill > /proc/5/ctl processes 95 - 98 give this output (missing line: 'no symbol information'): term% echo 'stacks()' | acid -l thread 95 /proc/5/text:386 plan 9 executable /sys/lib/acid/port /sys/lib/acid/386 /sys/lib/acid/thread:1: (error) pushfile: /sys/src/libthread/sched.acid: '/sys/src/libthread/sched.acid' does not exist acid: :2: (error) no function stacks acid: echo kill > /proc/95/ctl Greetings: Béla 2009/8/13 Noah Evans : > Okay, could you run: > > echo 'stacks()' | acid -l thread > > On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Bela Valek wrote: >> Logged in with 'none': >> >> none 91 0:00 0:00 356K Sleep usbd >> none 92 0:00 0:00 356K Pread usbd >> none 93 0:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd >> none 94 0:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd >> >> Logged in with 'glenda': >> >> glenda 5 0:00 0:00 356K Sleep usbd >> glenda 6 0:00 0:00 356K Pread usbd >> glenda 7 0:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd >> glenda 8 0:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd >> >> Its a default install, nothing was modified. >> >> 2009/8/13 Noah Evans : >>> Are you sure you're not running two usbds? Can send a listing of your >>> process table? >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Bela Valek wrote: I managed to reproduce the error in Bochs, the only thing I did was turning on the USB support in the emulator (usb_uhci: enabled=1). Startup: pcirouting: BIOS workaround: PCI.0.1.3 at pin 1 link 96 irq 11 -> 9 #u/usb/ep1.0: uhci: port 0xC020 irq 9 256M memory: 105M kernel data, 151M user, 576M swap usbd...root is from (tcp, local)[local!#S/sdC0/fossil]: The error message: usb/usbd: opendevdata: /dev/usb/ep1.0: '/dev/usb/ep1.0/data' device or object already in use usb/usbd: /dev/usb/ep1.0: '/dev/usb/ep1.0/data' device or object already in use Do you know what happened? Greetings: Béla >>> >>> >> >> > >
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 10:14 AM, Aaron W. Hsu wrote: > So, I was browsing around the other day looking at Acme resources, and I > discovered an old post from 1995 wherein someone advocated the use of > proportional fonts for programming in Acme. I've been programming using Wily, Acme, and Acme SAC for 15 years now, and this has always been using proportional fonts. Very, very rarely do I need to look at fixed font representation, and I can't remember when the last time actually was? I am so used to this, that I find it difficult to read code in a fixed font, color overloaded, highlighting editor. All the flashiness detracts from the code I'm trying to understand. Sometimes when I have to understand a bit of foreign code, I go through the code and re-indent to fit my view of the world. I use this as an exercise to help me understand what the code does, not because I don't like the style. For code that uses brackets of some persuasion for grouping code, the double-click text selection shows me exactly the grouping. And I don't get mislead by wrong indentation very easily. Proportional fonts can also greatly reduce pointless discussions about coding style. Robby
[9fans] undelete a file
Hello everyone, I have, by mistake, deleted a file. I use fossil. I don't know much about how fossil works... Can I do something to get it back? I tried yesterday, but it says /n/dump/2009 doesn't exist. I looked in /n/dump and there is nothing. I tried '9fs dump' but even after that /n/dump/ is empty. Thanks Ruda
Re: [9fans] usbd error message
Can you mk all /sys/src/libthread. This is bogging down a bit. Take it off-list? On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Bela Valek wrote: > First of all, i missed some pids, the total number of usbd processes is 8: > > glenda 5 0:00 0:00 356K Sleep usbd > glenda 6 0:00 0:00 356K Pread usbd > glenda 7 0:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd > glenda 8 0:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd > glenda 95 0:00 0:00 356K Sleep usbd > glenda 96 0:00 0:00 356K Pread usbd > glenda 97 0:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd > glenda 98 0:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd > > processes 5 - 8 give this an output like this: > > term% echo 'stacks()' | acid -l thread 5 > /proc/5/text:386 plan 9 executable > /sys/lib/acid/port > /sys/lib/acid/386 > /sys/lib/acid/thread:1: (error) pushfile: > /sys/src/libthread/sched.acid: '/sys/src/libthread/sched.acid' does > not exist > no symbol information > acid: :2: (error) no function stacks > acid: > echo kill > /proc/5/ctl > > processes 95 - 98 give this output (missing line: 'no symbol information'): > > term% echo 'stacks()' | acid -l thread 95 > /proc/5/text:386 plan 9 executable > /sys/lib/acid/port > /sys/lib/acid/386 > /sys/lib/acid/thread:1: (error) pushfile: > /sys/src/libthread/sched.acid: '/sys/src/libthread/sched.acid' does > not exist > acid: :2: (error) no function stacks > acid: > echo kill > /proc/95/ctl > > Greetings: Béla > > 2009/8/13 Noah Evans : >> Okay, could you run: >> >> echo 'stacks()' | acid -l thread >> >> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Bela Valek wrote: >>> Logged in with 'none': >>> >>> none 91 0:00 0:00 356K Sleep usbd >>> none 92 0:00 0:00 356K Pread usbd >>> none 93 0:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd >>> none 94 0:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd >>> >>> Logged in with 'glenda': >>> >>> glenda 5 0:00 0:00 356K Sleep usbd >>> glenda 6 0:00 0:00 356K Pread usbd >>> glenda 7 0:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd >>> glenda 8 0:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd >>> >>> Its a default install, nothing was modified. >>> >>> 2009/8/13 Noah Evans : Are you sure you're not running two usbds? Can send a listing of your process table? On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Bela Valek wrote: > I managed to reproduce the error in Bochs, the only thing I did was > turning on the USB support in the emulator (usb_uhci: enabled=1). > > Startup: > pcirouting: BIOS workaround: PCI.0.1.3 at pin 1 link 96 irq 11 -> 9 > #u/usb/ep1.0: uhci: port 0xC020 irq 9 > 256M memory: 105M kernel data, 151M user, 576M swap > usbd...root is from (tcp, local)[local!#S/sdC0/fossil]: > > The error message: > usb/usbd: opendevdata: /dev/usb/ep1.0: '/dev/usb/ep1.0/data' device or > object already in use > usb/usbd: /dev/usb/ep1.0: '/dev/usb/ep1.0/data' device or object already > in use > > Do you know what happened? > > Greetings: Béla > > >>> >>> >> >> > >
[9fans] 2nd draft of the Cpu/Auth Server howto online
http://www.p9dp.org/plan9-cpu-auth-server-howto.html This is likely to be the final draft; it has been optimized in various ways and I have thoroughly tested it multiple times. Sure would be terrific if a few folks of varying degrees of experience with Plan 9 could actually take the document for a real spin and confirm that it works as advertised. For those who are willing to test it - and who can set up a cpu/auth server with their eyes closed - please realize it is important that you go through the steps verbatim in order to provide a reliable assessment (of course, this should be obvious). Thankyou!
Re: [9fans] yet another installation guide
On Tuesday 11 August 2009 17:40:59 John Floren wrote: > On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Corey wrote: > > Thanks for the heads-up, John - I've included a timeout value on the > > plan9.ini menu in the next draft version of the howto. > > > > You're welcome, but I do think we'd all be better served if you > located specific portions of the wiki page that need work and clarify > them, rather than forking off another very similar page. Or update the > wiki page and put a link to your document at the bottom. > > Just a thought > I'd like to revisit this a little bit later, after the document has been put through the paces and confirmed as reliable by a few other folks aside from myself. Cheers, Corey
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 09:14:19 GMT "Aaron W. Hsu" wrote: > So, I was browsing around the other day looking at Acme resources, and I > discovered an old post from 1995 wherein someone advocated the use of > proportional fonts for programming in Acme. This surprised me, to say the > least. He even went as far as to mention that SML was the language they > were using, and had managed to get a decent indenting pattern for it that > was just as readable, without messing things up for proportional font > users. > > I have to admit that I'm a bit skeptical about whether such a technique > actually works, and so, I thought I would pose some questions to you. > > Firstly, how many of you using Acme for programming on a daily basis remap > your fonts so that the fixed width font is the main one that you use? > > Secondly, if you do use proportional width fonts, why, and what troubles > did you encounter; what benefits did you encounter? I don't program on a daily basis, but using a proportional font in rio I'm finding it so much easier on the eyes that I hold back from opening xterms and from switching acme windows into the fixed-width font. > > Thirdly, would you continue using proportional width fonts in cases like > Lisp code, where you very often see something like the following > indentation scheme, and how would you resolve these indentation problems > with proportional width fonts if you did continue to use them? > > (let ([foo bar] > [something else]) > (some-func (called again) > (with fun indentation) > (and yet) > (another))) This particular form of indentation is the only thing I'd be worried about, and where a great deal of nesting is not required it's never strictly necessary. In a certain scripting environment with a C-like syntax and a very weak editor I got into the habit of treating parentheses as block structure when the parameter list is long: llSetPrimitiveParams([ PRIM_TYPE, PRIM_TYPE_CYLINDER, 0, , hollow, <0, 0, 0>, <1, 1, 0>, <0, 0, 0> ]); That's not a practical style in Lisp, of course. I've thought about this in the past as I was never entirely comfortable with some very common indenting styles. Gnu style has 2-character indents, that's not an indent, it's natural roughness! The Linux kernel style on the other hand has full tabs. 8-character tabs break things up a little too much for my eyes so I set my editor to have narrower tabs when loading code from the kernel tree. This worked great so long as no code had a special indent (as Aaron's Lisp code above) nor was aligned after the indent (e.g. comments on the same line as code). This eventually led me to consider an editor which dynamically managed indents, displaying the code quite differently to the fixed indents in the source file. Such an editor could work well with proportional fonts and s-expressions together, but I can't work out whether it would be 'too clever' - i.e. irritating. -- Ethan Grammatikidis Those who are slower at parsing information must necessarily be faster at problem-solving.
Re: [9fans] usbd error message
On Thu Aug 13 06:25:14 EDT 2009, bval...@gmail.com wrote: > First of all, i missed some pids, the total number of usbd processes is 8: > > glenda50:00 0:00 356K Sleepusbd > glenda60:00 0:00 356K Preadusbd > glenda70:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd > glenda80:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd > glenda 950:00 0:00 356K Sleepusbd > glenda 960:00 0:00 356K Preadusbd > glenda 970:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd > glenda 980:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd looks like the problem is that you're starting usbd twice. perhaps in or from cpurc or termrc? - erik
Re: [9fans] usbd error message
2009/8/13 Noah Evans : > Can you mk all /sys/src/libthread. This is bogging down a bit. Take it > off-list? > I did mk, and i tried the command again, thread 5 has no process information, thread 95 gives this: term% echo 'stacks()' | acid -l thread 95 /proc/95/text:386 plan 9 executable /sys/lib/acid/port /sys/lib/acid/386 /sys/lib/acid/thread acid: p=(Proc)0x38988pid 95 Running t=(Thread)0x39328Running/sys/src/cmd/usb/usbd/usbd.c:585 work sleep()+0x7 /sys/src/libc/9syscall/sleep.s:5 work(a=0x38948)+0x12c /sys/src/cmd/usb/usbd/usbd.c:585 launcher386(arg=0x38948,f=0x2b0d)+0x10 /sys/src/libthread/386.c:10 0xfefefefe ?file?:0 p=(Proc)0x52c88pid 96 Running t=(Thread)0x53628Running/sys/src/cmd/usb/lib/fs.c:592 usbfs pread()+0x7 /sys/src/libc/9syscall/pread.s:5 read(fd=0x5,buf=0x4efc4,n=0x4)+0x2f /sys/src/libc/9sys/read.c:7 readn(n=0x4,av=0x4efc4,f=0x5)+0x3a /sys/src/libc/port/readn.c:13 read9pmsg(abuf=0x4efc4,fd=0x5,n=0x2080)+0x24 /sys/src/libc/9sys/read9pmsg.c:14 usbfs()+0x100 /sys/src/cmd/usb/lib/fs.c:592 launcher386(arg=0x0,f=0xadd0)+0x10 /sys/src/libthread/386.c:10 0xfefefefe ?file?:0 t=(Thread)0x53748Rendez /sys/src/cmd/usb/lib/fs.c:119 schedproc alt(alts=0x49950)+0x12a /sys/src/libthread/channel.c:140 schedproc()+0xbe /sys/src/cmd/usb/lib/fs.c:119 launcher386(arg=0x0,f=0x9bb2)+0x10 /sys/src/libthread/386.c:10 0xfefefefe ?file?:0 p=(Proc)0x499d8pid 97 Sched t=(Thread)0x537e8Rendez /sys/src/cmd/usb/lib/fs.c:546 outproc recvp(c=0x38948)+0x2c /sys/src/libthread/channel.c:270 outproc()+0x2f /sys/src/cmd/usb/lib/fs.c:546 launcher386(arg=0x0,f=0xac11)+0x10 /sys/src/libthread/386.c:10 0xfefefefe ?file?:0 p=(Proc)0x4e398pid 98 Sched t=(Thread)0x53928Rendez /sys/src/cmd/usb/lib/fs.c:342 fsioproc recvp(c=0x538e8)+0x2c /sys/src/libthread/channel.c:270 fsioproc(a=0x538e8)+0x51 /sys/src/cmd/usb/lib/fs.c:342 launcher386(arg=0x538e8,f=0xa440)+0x10 /sys/src/libthread/386.c:10 0xfefefefe ?file?:0 acid: echo kill > /proc/98/ctl echo kill > /proc/97/ctl echo kill > /proc/96/ctl echo kill > /proc/95/ctl
Re: [9fans] usbd error message
Its a default install, i didnt modify it. 2009/8/13 erik quanstrom : > On Thu Aug 13 06:25:14 EDT 2009, bval...@gmail.com wrote: >> First of all, i missed some pids, the total number of usbd processes is 8: >> >> glenda 5 0:00 0:00 356K Sleep usbd >> glenda 6 0:00 0:00 356K Pread usbd >> glenda 7 0:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd >> glenda 8 0:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd >> glenda 95 0:00 0:00 356K Sleep usbd >> glenda 96 0:00 0:00 356K Pread usbd >> glenda 97 0:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd >> glenda 98 0:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd > > looks like the problem is that you're starting usbd twice. > perhaps in or from cpurc or termrc? > > - erik > >
[9fans] ugly eqn/troff result
Hello everyone Why do I get an ugly result when trying to typeset (in file 'a') .EQ a + left ( A + B right ) .EN with eqn a | troff | dpost -f > a.ps? I am getting an equation in which the 'A+B' is significantly shifted downwards inside the (), so that the two pluses just don't line up... Thanks Ruda P.S.: what I actually wanted to typeset is 'something + ((A+B) sup -1)', but the same happens...
[9fans] disk dma on before init /bin/rc
Hi all The subject says it all. Is it possible to turn on dma before calling the init scripts? or in fossil+venti installation turn on dma before loading venti fernan -- http://www.fernski.com
Re: [9fans] undelete a file
... Do I need venti to be able to use the dump feature? Thanks Ruda
Re: [9fans] usbd error message
Can you reboot the machine and then pastebin the full transcript of what happens from boot to your usbd error? AFAIK you shouldn't have two instances of usbd running. On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 2:45 PM, Bela Valek wrote: > Its a default install, i didnt modify it. > > 2009/8/13 erik quanstrom : >> On Thu Aug 13 06:25:14 EDT 2009, bval...@gmail.com wrote: >>> First of all, i missed some pids, the total number of usbd processes is 8: >>> >>> glenda 5 0:00 0:00 356K Sleep usbd >>> glenda 6 0:00 0:00 356K Pread usbd >>> glenda 7 0:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd >>> glenda 8 0:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd >>> glenda 95 0:00 0:00 356K Sleep usbd >>> glenda 96 0:00 0:00 356K Pread usbd >>> glenda 97 0:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd >>> glenda 98 0:00 0:00 356K Rendez usbd >> >> looks like the problem is that you're starting usbd twice. >> perhaps in or from cpurc or termrc? >> >> - erik >> >> > >
Re: [9fans] audio standards -- too many to choose from
On Thu Aug 13 02:43:54 EDT 2009, 9...@9netics.com wrote: > > I'm not sure either latency or RT is proper terminology here. But > > I believe what I meant was clear: when you need overall latency > > to be around 5ms you start to notice 9P. when you need the overall latency to be around 5ms, aren't you need a suitable network? (or none at all) > it needs to be isochronous. i believe it has that capability. just keep multiple tags outstanding. - erik
Re: [9fans] undelete a file
* Rudolf Sykora (rudolf.syk...@gmail.com) wrote: > ... Do I need venti to be able to use the dump feature? > Thanks > Ruda Probably. You might get away with 9fs snap and having a peek at /n/snap, though. (I'm not sure as I haven't used fossil without venti backing of some sort in years.) Good luck, Martin
Re: [9fans] undelete a file
> ... Do I need venti to be able to use the dump feature? if you are using fossil, then yes. - erik
Re: [9fans] disk dma on before init /bin/rc
On Thu Aug 13 09:03:44 EDT 2009, fernanbola...@mailc.net wrote: > Hi all > > The subject says it all. > Is it possible to turn on dma before calling the init scripts? > or in fossil+venti installation turn on dma before loading venti with my new sd stuff, it is possible. put this in plan9.ini *sdXXdma=on you can also set maxio from plan9.ini *idemaxio=n i realize that one can always turn on dma once the machine has booted, but at one point on one machine it appeared that pio was getting sideways before one could turn dma on. idemaxio was added for similar reasons. - erik
Re: [9fans] audio standards -- too many to choose from
>> it needs to be isochronous. > > i believe it has that capability. just keep multiple tags > outstanding. at the device it needs to be isochronous; so if it's going over the wire, you need to build some elasticity in. or as media players would say: [ buffering... buffering... ] ☺
Re: [9fans] audio standards -- too many to choose from
2009/8/13 erik quanstrom : > On Thu Aug 13 02:43:54 EDT 2009, 9...@9netics.com wrote: >> > I'm not sure either latency or RT is proper terminology here. But >> > I believe what I meant was clear: when you need overall latency >> > to be around 5ms you start to notice 9P. > > when you need the overall latency to be around 5ms, > aren't you need a suitable network? (or none at all) When you're doing audio work, latency is an issue on playback when you're playing with a recording. 5ms is acceptable, but getting much higher is not. However, one of the other key points is that a consistent latency is important. 50ms might be fine for playback with video if it's a constant 50ms, but if you start drifting +- 10ms, things can get wonky pretty quickly. This is easily demonstrable with rhythm games (such as Rock Band or Guitar Hero) where latency induced by a home audio system (mine at home is about 15ms induced by my receiver and 5ms using the Xbox digital output) can have a very significant negative impact on gameplay when one plays primarily by sound. (Sound cues are easier to keep beat by than visual). --dho
Re: [9fans] usbd error message
On Thu Aug 13 09:36:24 EDT 2009, bval...@gmail.com wrote: > Plan 9 [...] > init: starting /bin/rc > grep: exec header invalid > grep: exec header invalid > grep: exec header invalid i'm pretty sure this is not a pristine install. somehow grep has gotten stomped on. - erik
Re: [9fans] usbd error message
Can add 'flag x +' to /rc/bin/usbstart and /rc/bin/termrc and post that output? I think I know your problem now. Also could you: echo | grep -s hello; echo $status My guess is that somehow your grep is borked and: if (! ps | grep -s ' usbd$') usb/usbd is succeeding in /rc/bin/usbstart On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Bela Valek wrote: > 2009/8/13 Noah Evans : >> Can you reboot the machine and then pastebin the full transcript of >> what happens from boot to your usbd error? AFAIK you shouldn't have >> two instances of usbd running. >> > > Its very short, the error message comes early: > > Plan 9 > E820: 0009f000 memory > E820: 0009f000 000a reserved > E820: 000e8000 0010 reserved > E820: 0010 0fff memory > E820: 0fff 1000 acpi reclaim > E820: fffc 1 reserved > 126 holes free > 00019000 0009f000 548864 > 0040e000 0687f000 105320448 > 105869312 bytes free > cpu0: 50MHz GenuineIntel PentiumIV/Xeon (cpuid: AX 0x0F20 DX 0x78BFBFF) > ELCR: 0A00 > pcirouting: BIOS workaround: PCI.0.1.3 at pin 1 link 96 irq 11 -> 9 > #u/usb/ep1.0: uhci: port 0xC020 irq 9 > 256M memory: 105M kernel data, 151M user, 576M swap > usbd...root is from (tcp, local)[local!#S/sdC0/fossil]: > user[none]: glenda > time... > fossil(#S/sdC0/fossil)...version...time... > > init: starting /bin/rc > grep: exec header invalid > grep: exec header invalid > grep: exec header invalid > usb/usbd: opendevdata: /dev/usb/ep1.0: '/dev/usb/ep1.0/data' device or > object already in use > usb/usbd: /dev/usb/ep1.0: '/dev/usb/ep1.0/data' device or object already in > use > >
Re: [9fans] usbd error message
2009/8/13 Noah Evans : > Can you reboot the machine and then pastebin the full transcript of > what happens from boot to your usbd error? AFAIK you shouldn't have > two instances of usbd running. > Its very short, the error message comes early: Plan 9 E820: 0009f000 memory E820: 0009f000 000a reserved E820: 000e8000 0010 reserved E820: 0010 0fff memory E820: 0fff 1000 acpi reclaim E820: fffc 1 reserved 126 holes free 00019000 0009f000 548864 0040e000 0687f000 105320448 105869312 bytes free cpu0: 50MHz GenuineIntel PentiumIV/Xeon (cpuid: AX 0x0F20 DX 0x78BFBFF) ELCR: 0A00 pcirouting: BIOS workaround: PCI.0.1.3 at pin 1 link 96 irq 11 -> 9 #u/usb/ep1.0: uhci: port 0xC020 irq 9 256M memory: 105M kernel data, 151M user, 576M swap usbd...root is from (tcp, local)[local!#S/sdC0/fossil]: user[none]: glenda time... fossil(#S/sdC0/fossil)...version...time... init: starting /bin/rc grep: exec header invalid grep: exec header invalid grep: exec header invalid usb/usbd: opendevdata: /dev/usb/ep1.0: '/dev/usb/ep1.0/data' device or object already in use usb/usbd: /dev/usb/ep1.0: '/dev/usb/ep1.0/data' device or object already in use
Re: [9fans] Thrift RPC
> we don't use text for 9p, do we? the difference being, 9p is the transport not the representation of the data and 9p has a fixed set of messages. - erik
Re: [9fans] silly Q
i certainly can't speak for the original designers, but i'd say aesthetics, mostly. putting bin before the arch type allows you to simply have fewer things in your home directory, which makes looking around easier. you can't really do that in the root. well, you could, binding, for example, /bin/386 over /bin, but it'd be a lot uglier; best to start with the empty /bin.
Re: [9fans] iwp9 paper submission deadline
http://iwp9.quanstro.net/ :-) On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 3:36 PM, erik quanstrom wrote: > it's fast approaching. get those papers in. > http://iwp9.net > > - erik > > -- Rodolfo García "kix" EA4ERH - IN80ER
Re: [9fans] iwp9 paper submission deadline
On Thu Aug 13 10:06:44 EDT 2009, k...@kix.es wrote: > http://iwp9.quanstro.net/ :-) > > On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 3:36 PM, erik quanstrom wrote: > > it's fast approaching. get those papers in. > > http://iwp9.net thanks for the correction. i got my wires crossed. i ment iwp9.org, but the other address will also do. - erik
Re: [9fans] oh, no! (again)
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 1:57 AM, erik quanstrom wrote: > > a further note, if you rebuild your kernel, it won't work. > installing the following contrib packages is required > quanstro/fis (build and parse sata fises) > quanstro/sd (new sd stuff) > quanstro/nvram (so you can find nvram) > quanstro/9load-e820 (to rebuild 9load) I am suppose to replace /sys/src/boot/pc with /sys/src/boot/pc-e820??? > for most atom-based machines with 8169s you will need > this as well. > > quanstro/8169 > > comment out the edev->maxtu line. that's for jumbo frames > support for aoe. you could apply the changes to the dist > driver as well, but unfortunately the distributed driver does > not handle unexpectly large packet reception. (crash) There is no edev->maxtu in /sys/src/9/pc ether8169.c there is edev->maxmtu Mtu same thing??? > also you may wish to enable support for the new sd stuff. > quanstro/atazz (send raw ata commands) > quanstro/smart (smart monitor) > > there are a few things in the kernel i've built that don't fit > in dist packages very well. > PAT > jumbo ethernet frames > kernel cec server (console-over-ethernet) > /dev/cputemp > /dev/nomp (mptables when not enabled) > not sure what to do here. -- http://www.fernski.com
Re: [9fans] the old floppy set
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 23:49, John Floren wrote: > With a little help from FreeDOS, I am now successfully running 2e i can't get past the first disk. it seems there is no "suitable" fat partition. no amount of partitioning and formatting under freedos or freebsd results in anything disk one will put files on. so what exactly constitutes a "suitable" fat partition?
Re: [9fans] the old floppy set
> I booted the FreeDOS disk and created a small partition (something > like 50 MB) on the hard disk, leaving the rest unpartitioned. Then I > installed FreeDOS to the small partition and started the Plan 9 > installation. i don't have the 2e sources so i'm guessing. (apologies.)i don't know what versions of fat 2e supported, but i would imagine restricting oneself to fat16 (and not fat16 lba) would be safest. - erik
Re: [9fans] the old floppy set
On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 7:11 AM, michael block wrote: > On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 23:49, John Floren wrote: >> With a little help from FreeDOS, I am now successfully running 2e > > i can't get past the first disk. it seems there is no "suitable" fat > partition. no amount of partitioning and formatting under freedos or > freebsd results in anything disk one will put files on. so what > exactly constitutes a "suitable" fat partition? > > Ok, first note that I didn't have any luck with QEMU, I had to install on an actual 486. I booted the FreeDOS disk and created a small partition (something like 50 MB) on the hard disk, leaving the rest unpartitioned. Then I installed FreeDOS to the small partition and started the Plan 9 installation. John -- "Object-oriented design is the roman numerals of computing" -- Rob Pike
Re: [9fans] usbd error message
2009/8/13 Noah Evans : > Can add 'flag x +' to /rc/bin/usbstart and /rc/bin/termrc and post > that output? I think I know your problem now. Also could you: > echo | grep -s hello; echo $status > > My guess is that somehow your grep is borked and: > > if (! ps | grep -s ' usbd$') > usb/usbd > is succeeding in /rc/bin/usbstart > term% echo | grep -s hello; echo $status grep: exec header invalid |rc 220: can't exec: exec header invalid I wonder, what did I temper with, on two different installations. I just tried a clean install, the error message is not there, and ps show only 4 usbd threads.
Re: [9fans] undelete a file
you need venti for dumps, but not snapshots. do "9fs snap" and then see if there's anything in /n/snap. these are ephemeral, not archival. i don't believe fossil ships with these turned on by default, so you're likely SOL, sorry. assuming my memory from my last install is correct, and it's not installing with snapshots (and, if venti-backed, with dumps on), is there any particular reason for that?
Re: [9fans] oh, no! (again)
On Thu Aug 13 10:16:09 EDT 2009, fernanbola...@mailc.net wrote: > > quanstro/9load-e820 (to rebuild 9load) > > I am suppose to replace /sys/src/boot/pc with /sys/src/boot/pc-e820??? if you do reinstall, you will need to install from /sys/src/boot/pc-e820 not /sys/src/boot/pc. if you leave /sys/src/boot/pc there or not doesn't matter. > There is no edev->maxtu in /sys/src/9/pc ether8169.c > there is edev->maxmtu Mtu same thing??? i don't believe you've installed the version of 8169 in my contrib. > > also you may wish to enable support for the new sd stuff. > > quanstro/atazz (send raw ata commands) > > quanstro/smart (smart monitor) that didn't come out right. if you're using the new sd stuff, then these command will work, and you might find them useful. smart has a better chance of being useful than the rather esoteric atazz. > > > > there are a few things in the kernel i've built that don't fit > > in dist packages very well. > > PAT > > jumbo ethernet frames > > kernel cec server (console-over-ethernet) > > /dev/cputemp > > /dev/nomp (mptables when not enabled) > > > > not sure what to do here. this was just fyi. these will be differences between the prebuilt kernel on the iso and one you can rebuild yourself. i forgot some things like jumbo frames, too. this is important for good aoe performance. i've gotten over 1GB/s of sustaned aoe traffic on a lowly 1.6ghz xeon 5000 machine over a myricom 10gbe card. when i get back to working on the myricom stuff, i will post a link to the exact setup. again, the iso is just kind of a bandaid. the contrib packages are, too. it's all quite unsatisfactory. sorry i havn't done a better job. i'm up for suggestions. - erik
Re: [9fans] Thrift RPC
On 8/13/09, erik quanstrom wrote: >> we don't use te*xt for 9p, do we? > > the difference being, 9p is the transport not > the representation of the data and 9p has > a fixed set of messages. > Also 9p aims at file systems pretty obviously where Thirft is a generic RPC mechanism with stub compilers for bindings for several languages. I have not been able to convince coworkers that filesystem namespaces are the way to go. I think they think it is too hard. *shrug* you can lead a horse... > - erik > >
Re: [9fans] audio standards -- too many to choose from
Devon H. O'Dell wrote: // This is easily demonstrable with rhythm games (such as Rock // Band or Guitar Hero) where latency induced by a home audio // system (mine at home is about 15ms induced by my receiver // and 5ms using the Xbox digital output) can have a very // significant negative impact on gameplay when one plays // primarily by sound. It's worth noting that the differences injected by typical home components are significant enough that, at least in all the versions of these games I've played, the designers have built in a way for you to calibrate the audio against the video. // (Sound cues are easier to keep beat by than visual). The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame has a Guitar Hero set up in the lobby, but you need to bring your own headphones. I didn't have any on me, so tried playing by sight only. It went really poorly.
Re: [9fans] undelete a file
2009/8/13 Anthony Sorace : > you need venti for dumps, but not snapshots. do "9fs snap" and then > see if there's anything in /n/snap. these are ephemeral, not archival. > > i don't believe fossil ships with these turned on by default, so > you're likely SOL, sorry. Well, after 9fs snap /n/snap is empty... ... well I haven't lost anything life-essential > > assuming my memory from my last install is correct, and it's not > installing with snapshots (and, if venti-backed, with dumps on), is > there any particular reason for that? Where can I read how to turn the snapshots on? (Actually, I once read fossil(4) and had the feeling that these simply do happen and once there is no space some of them are moved to venti or deleted if there is no venti. With this on mind I then decided not to use venti during installation. Now I see the snapshots have to be turned on...) Thanks anyway Ruda
Re: [9fans] audio standards -- too many to choose from
2009/8/13 Anthony Sorace : > Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > // This is easily demonstrable with rhythm games (such as Rock > // Band or Guitar Hero) where latency induced by a home audio > // system (mine at home is about 15ms induced by my receiver > // and 5ms using the Xbox digital output) can have a very > // significant negative impact on gameplay when one plays > // primarily by sound. > > It's worth noting that the differences injected by typical home > components are significant enough that, at least in all the > versions of these games I've played, the designers have built in > a way for you to calibrate the audio against the video. Indeed. Early versions of the game only allowed you to do audio lag calibration and made no video compensation (see: Guitar Hero 1 and 2; Guitar Hero 3; Rock Band was the first to introduce both). This ended up making the game even harder, because the gameplay is really a combination of audio and video cues. > // (Sound cues are easier to keep beat by than visual). > > The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame has a Guitar Hero set up in the > lobby, but you need to bring your own headphones. I didn't have > any on me, so tried playing by sight only. It went really poorly. Even though I'm fairly adept at these games (probably top 100ish on drums and I used to be top 50 on guitar; I'm much worse at that now), playing on mute is noticeably more difficult. A good friend of mine who was #1 on guitar for quite some time was able to do it almost effortlessly, though. If you can keep time well, it's easy. However, that assumes no video latency. If there is video latency, it sucks. --dho
Re: [9fans] oh, no! (again)
On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 10:33 PM, erik quanstrom wrote: > On Thu Aug 13 10:16:09 EDT 2009, fernanbola...@mailc.net wrote: >> There is no edev->maxtu in /sys/src/9/pc ether8169.c >> there is edev->maxmtu Mtu same thing??? > > i don't believe you've installed the version of 8169 in > my contrib. > term% contrib/install quanstro/8169 8169 is already installed term% contrib/pull -s sys/src/9/pc 8169 term% hmm it says already installed, but I cant grep any reference to edev->maxtu -- http://www.fernski.com
Re: [9fans] oh, no! (again)
> term% contrib/install quanstro/8169 > 8169 is already installed > term% contrib/pull -s sys/src/9/pc 8169 > term% > > hmm it says already installed, but I cant grep any reference to edev->maxtu okay, maybe there's not a problem. if it just compiles, then don't worry about it. otherwise, remove the assignment to the missing structure element. - erik
Re: [9fans] Plan 9 hg with private repositories
On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 2:47 AM, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: > On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 11:13:58 +0200 > Bela Valek wrote: > > > Correct me if I am wrong, but an sshv2 server is also providing sshv1 > > too. > > I vaguely remember reading that some ssh software would refuse to work > with ssh v1 by default because v1 is so insecure. > Many times you must turn v1 on, but it's available. It's off by default due to it being insecure. > > > -- > Ethan Grammatikidis > > Those who are slower at parsing information must > necessarily be faster at problem-solving. > >
Re: [9fans] Thrift RPC
2009/8/13 David Leimbach : > On 8/13/09, erik quanstrom wrote: >>> we don't use te*xt for 9p, do we? >> >> the difference being, 9p is the transport not >> the representation of the data and 9p has >> a fixed set of messages. > Also 9p aims at file systems pretty obviously where Thirft is a > generic RPC mechanism with stub compilers for bindings for several > languages. i wasn't trying to defend the RPC mechanism, just the data format, which i think can be fine when bandwidth is an issue. doing everything with text in the filesystem is no magic bullet either. many textual formats in plan 9 could do with being a little more self-describing. > I have not been able to convince coworkers that filesystem namespaces > are the way to go. I think they think it is too hard. i think it's undeniably true that writing a 9p/styx file server is harder than writing a function to be called via some RPC mechanism. personally, i think that the added value you get from having the filesystem abstraction is well worth the cost, but it is an arguable point.
Re: [9fans] the old floppy set
On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 09:23, John Floren wrote: > Ok, first note that I didn't have any luck with QEMU, I had to install > on an actual 486. i have the same error with both qemu and period hardware. i'm running qemu-8.2.0 and a pentium 266MHz laptop. on the laptop both my freedos partition and space for 2e are near the end of a 20G disk. same for qemu but with a 200M hda file. was your qemu problem similar to mine? > I booted the FreeDOS disk and created a small partition (something > like 50 MB) on the hard disk, leaving the rest unpartitioned. Then I > installed FreeDOS to the small partition and started the Plan 9 > installation. yep, did the same On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 09:26, erik quanstrom wrote: > i don't know > what versions of fat 2e supported, but i would imagine restricting > oneself to fat16 (and not fat16 lba) would be safest. i used fat16, i think lba. i figured plan 9 would be smart enough to deal with lba and large disks, but wikipedia tells me that 1995 was sort of a chs-lba transition period, so perhaps i was wrong. i won't be able to experiment with chs on the laptop as it has a large disk with freebsd filling it except for the very end
Re: [9fans] Plan 9 hg with private repositories
2009/8/13 David Leimbach : > On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 2:47 AM, Ethan Grammatikidis > wrote: >> >> On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 11:13:58 +0200 >> Bela Valek wrote: >> >> > Correct me if I am wrong, but an sshv2 server is also providing sshv1 >> > too. >> >> I vaguely remember reading that some ssh software would refuse to work >> with ssh v1 by default because v1 is so insecure. > > Many times you must turn v1 on, but it's available. It's off by default due > to it being insecure. If I"m recalling correctly, SSHv1 is insecure only if the remote server is untrusted. Or am I not recalling correctly? --dho >> -- >> Ethan Grammatikidis >> >> Those who are slower at parsing information must >> necessarily be faster at problem-solving. >> > >
Re: [9fans] the old floppy set
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 09:26, erik quanstrom wrote: > > i don't know > > what versions of fat 2e supported, but i would imagine restricting > > oneself to fat16 (and not fat16 lba) would be safest. > > i used fat16, i think lba. i figured plan 9 would be smart enough to > deal with lba and large disks, but wikipedia tells me that 1995 was > sort of a chs-lba transition period, so perhaps i was wrong. i won't > be able to experiment with chs on the laptop as it has a large disk > with freebsd filling it except for the very end even the current 9load won't deal with fat16 lba or fat32 lba. 9load-e820 does, though. - erik
Re: [9fans] undelete a file
you need to read fossilcons(8) for how to turn them on. the man page makes clear (i think) that there are two types of snapshots, archival and not. i think the default behavior is explained, too (see the description of snaptime).
Re: [9fans] Plan 9 hg with private repositories
> Correct me if I am wrong, but an sshv2 server is also providing sshv1 too. When you connect to the SSH server, if it is willing to accept version 1 or 2 it says 1.99 as its version. If it is only willing to accept version 2, it says 2. $ dial 'tcp!bitbucket.org!ssh' SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_5.1p1 Debian-5 That's a 2.0-only banner on the site in question, which is not under John's control. Russ
[9fans] the atom versus glenda who won??
since it seems customary to send out a shout everytime Eriks new sd stuff works here is mine I am now running plan9 on my atom based motherboard. It is configured as a cpu/auth server with fossil+vent filesystem The band-aid works!!! thanks Erik -- http://www.fernski.com
Re: [9fans] audio standards -- too many to choose from
2009/8/12 Tim Newsham : - What software exists for each of these formats? >> >> If you are asking about non Plan9 software I'd start with >> ffmpeg. >> - Which format is the most "popular"? >> >> I don't think I understand the question. > > Sorry, let me rephrase: > - Of the different audio driver interface designs > (audio(3), usb(4) and inferno usb(3)) which software > (p9 and limbo) uses each? > - Which of these interfaces is used the most? I don't know which is used the most, but I don't think the Plan 9 ones of them make particularly good sense to support multiple input formats to multiple output formats. sox was mentioned here recently, and is a great utility for doing the conversion. If we want a generic, reusable audio layer, to *me* the Inferno one is best with: audio audioctl It doesn't make sense to export files for volumes, codes, channels, and other settings to me. This is because (at least with HDA cards) you would end up with 5 bajillion files for controlling volume on each individual channel. You'd end up with another file for reading/writing codec settings. You'd end up with a file saying whether you preferred digital output or analog output. OSS relies heavily on ioctls for setting these things, but for good reason. In our case, a standardized set of strings for the ctl file seems best to me. If I want to change master volume, echo master 255.255 > /dev/audioctl. If I want to set digital out, echo output channel digital > /dev/audioctl. etc. A more spread out filesystem would make the ctl handler smaller, but would not reduce the amount of code needed to support mixers / codecs / channels / whatnot (In fact, you'd just have more code because you'd have to have functions for reading/writing those files). Also, then you just need to come up with strings -- you're just bit frobbing these things, and more complicated filesystem hierarchy doesn't help explain it any better. echo 255 > /dev/audio/mixer/channel/master/right; echo 255 > /dev/audio/mixer/channel/master/left; just seems obtuse, and, as I said, it's just adding more redundant code anyway. To then play sound, you would probably have a sox-like converter sitting on top of that (maybe even on top of /dev/audio?) that takes input of a certain format and does either minimal conversion (i.e. a card that supports XA ADPCM taking input from a playstation 2 sound file not having any conversion at all, WAV going to the proper byte-order PCM with the header stripped off, etc), or highest resolution audio available (e.g. 5.1 flac getting converted to whatever codec supports 5.1 audio). Thoughts? --dho
Re: [9fans] audio standards -- too many to choose from
> The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame has a Guitar Hero set up in the > lobby, but you need to bring your own headphones. I didn't have > any on me, so tried playing by sight only. It went really poorly. Our visual perception is very unreliable, whereas our acoustic timing can be very accurate.
Re: [9fans] Plan 9 hg with private repositories
On Aug 13, 2009, at 9:13 AM, Devon H. O'Dell wrote: If I"m recalling correctly, SSHv1 is insecure only if the remote server is untrusted. Or am I not recalling correctly? I believe you're correct and that server fingerprinting was introduced in v2. I asked some friends of mine about it and they said the principal issue is that it uses CRC for the packet checksum, which makes it not particularly hard for a third party to inject packets into your connection. Also, there are theoretical attacks that allow the session key to be recovered. One of my friends also said it only supported 3DES, but I'm not convinced that's a cryptological weakness in and of itself, nor that designing a new protocol with plug 'n play crypto is genius either, since I think a lot of the complexity in SSH v2 comes from its configurability, the effect that has on connection setup, as well as silly optional features like connection sharing and whatnot. (I use that silly feature all the time but I don't think I would have offered to build it into the protocol.) — Daniel Lyons
Re: [9fans] Acme niceties
Stupid gmail, they hide the smiley and think it's 'quoted text'. Didn't they learn utf-8? It's acmematic. On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 6:21 AM, David Leimbach wrote: > > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 8:24 PM, erik quanstrom > wrote: >> >> > (Did you ever notice it puts it back when it's done? Error window >> > pops up, mouse moves there; delete the window, mouse moves back.) >> >> worth one smile per day, after all these years. > > ☺ > >> >> - erik >> > >
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
On Aug 13, 2009, at 3:14 AM, Aaron W. Hsu wrote: So, I was browsing around the other day looking at Acme resources, and I discovered an old post from 1995 wherein someone advocated the use of proportional fonts for programming in Acme. This surprised me, to say the least. He even went as far as to mention that SML was the language they were using, and had managed to get a decent indenting pattern for it that was just as readable, without messing things up for proportional font users. I have to admit that I'm a bit skeptical about whether such a technique actually works, and so, I thought I would pose some questions to you. Bjarne Stroustrup actually advocates this style in "The C++ Programming Language." This discussion reminds me of this elastic tab stops concept: http://nickgravgaard.com/elastictabstops/ I don't think it made it into any editors, but it would support the kind of fancy alignment I like to have in my code while also supporting real fonts, which I would prefer to use. Thirdly, would you continue using proportional width fonts in cases like Lisp code, where you very often see something like the following indentation scheme, and how would you resolve these indentation problems with proportional width fonts if you did continue to use them? (let ([foo bar] [something else]) (some-func (called again) (with fun indentation) (and yet) (another))) I bet you could set up Emacs to use a proportional font. It can do anything, right? :) I'd love it if Acme or Plan 9 had good support for some kind of Lisp variant. — Daniel Lyons
Re: [9fans] Plan 9 hg with private repositories
i found where the 0x20 came from. it should be 20, not 0x20. anway, it comes from ahci:/^mkalist. l->flags specifies that the fis is 0x5 dwords = 20 bytes. either i missed the explaination in the ahci docs about why this is or it's a bit magic. - erik
Re: [9fans] audio standards -- too many to choose from
Been reading the thread with interest, and I finally have a moment to comment. I was thinking about this several years ago when I had a lot of spare time on my hands and wanted to rethink and update the audio interface, and I think a lot of what you are suggesting sounds similar to the conclusions I had come to during the design phase. Comments inline. On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 10:00, Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > 2009/8/12 Tim Newsham : > - What software exists for each of these formats? >>> >>> If you are asking about non Plan9 software I'd start with >>> ffmpeg. >>> > - Which format is the most "popular"? >>> >>> I don't think I understand the question. >> >> Sorry, let me rephrase: >> - Of the different audio driver interface designs >> (audio(3), usb(4) and inferno usb(3)) which software >> (p9 and limbo) uses each? >> - Which of these interfaces is used the most? > > I don't know which is used the most, but I don't think the Plan 9 ones > of them make particularly good sense to support multiple input formats > to multiple output formats. sox was mentioned here recently, and is a > great utility for doing the conversion. If we want a generic, reusable > audio layer, to *me* the Inferno one is best with: > > audio > audioctl I think this makes the most sense for the device driver interface. It's simple. > It doesn't make sense to export files for volumes, codes, channels, > and other settings to me. This is because (at least with HDA cards) > you would end up with 5 bajillion files for controlling volume on each > individual channel. You'd end up with another file for reading/writing > codec settings. You'd end up with a file saying whether you preferred > digital output or analog output. > > OSS relies heavily on ioctls for setting these things, but for good > reason. In our case, a standardized set of strings for the ctl file > seems best to me. If I want to change master volume, echo master > 255.255 > /dev/audioctl. If I want to set digital out, echo output > channel digital > /dev/audioctl. etc. A more spread out filesystem > would make the ctl handler smaller, but would not reduce the amount of > code needed to support mixers / codecs / channels / whatnot (In fact, > you'd just have more code because you'd have to have functions for > reading/writing those files). Also, then you just need to come up with > strings -- you're just bit frobbing these things, and more complicated > filesystem hierarchy doesn't help explain it any better. echo 255 > > /dev/audio/mixer/channel/master/right; echo 255 > > /dev/audio/mixer/channel/master/left; just seems obtuse, and, as I > said, it's just adding more redundant code anyway. I agree with this, too. Keep the interface simple and make the audioctl file smart based on the type of audio card you have. A complex file hierarchy just doesn't feel right to me. The simplest interface you can get away with is generally the most powerful. > To then play sound, you would probably have a sox-like converter > sitting on top of that (maybe even on top of /dev/audio?) that takes > input of a certain format and does either minimal conversion (i.e. a > card that supports XA ADPCM taking input from a playstation 2 sound > file not having any conversion at all, WAV going to the proper > byte-order PCM with the header stripped off, etc), or highest > resolution audio available (e.g. 5.1 flac getting converted to > whatever codec supports 5.1 audio). I haven't read up on sox, but I think the converter should be a file server sitting on top of /dev/audio. -- Christopher Nielsen "They who can give up essential liberty for temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
I always get a kick out of this exchange:http://www.usenet.com/newsgroups/comp.os.plan9/msg02052.html
Re: [9fans] audio standards -- too many to choose from
Roman Shaposhnik wrote: > On Aug 12, 2009, at 1:28 AM, Tim Newsham wrote: >>> Here's a complete list of audio formats that one can make hardware >>> either generate or accept. Where do you draw the line? This is incorrect, you don't "make hardware" do anything, the software layer that sits on top of the hardware does this. The SB16 hardware does not support ADPCM and it never will. > My list was only there to try and prove the point that Russ has > made -- pick a most common format and stick with it. Convert > everything else into it. By this logic, I need to have my application to convert CDROM-XA ADPCM audio from a device into PCM just to talk to an interface, which in turn must convert it back into ADPCM to play it back because the DMA transfers to the audio hardware buffer require ADPCM. >> One thing that strikes me is that if the device interface is >> designed in a flexible way that allows for arbitrary codings, then >> it will be easy to layer a userland driver on top of it that >> extends the API with more encodings that arent supported in hardware. >> If the interface isnt flexible in this way, then a separate >> interface will have to be made for such a userland driver... >> I'm not sure what the value of unifying those two interface is... > > I don't think I buy this point of view. Gratuitous flexibility is not > something Plan 9 is known for, nor should it. IMHO. Why does this idea deserves a "gratuitous" label? Preventing an application from communicating to the hardware in a native format is complete lack of flexibility. If you do not care about native hardware formats, why choose PCM over ADPCM as a transport? ADPCM is ~3/4 the size of PCM in terms of bandwidth. MPEG audio and probably most telephony codecs use ADPCM, why consider the 1980 RedBook PCM as the holy audio format?
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
On Thu Aug 13 18:36:41 EDT 2009, rminn...@gmail.com wrote: > I always get a kick out of this > exchange:http://www.usenet.com/newsgroups/comp.os.plan9/msg02052.html it took me at least 5 seconds to realize that abaco was formatting that page correctly. ☺ the key to the joke, however, is there is a vast difference between leading indentation and stuff like if(x == 1 && y == 2) which just doesn't work well with proportional fonts. i guess this email is an excercize in making presotto unfunny in 3 easy steps. - erik
Re: [9fans] audio standards -- too many to choose from
> > My list was only there to try and prove the point that Russ has > > made -- pick a most common format and stick with it. Convert > > everything else into it. > By this logic, I need to have my application to convert CDROM-XA ADPCM > audio from a device into PCM just to talk to an interface, which in turn > must convert it back into ADPCM to play it back because the DMA > transfers to the audio hardware buffer require ADPCM. the problem with supporting everything the hardware will do is that it's quite expensive in terms of development time. and that is the scarce resource that needs to be optimized. it also will make the interfaces much bulkier because you have to make accomidations for the quirks of n formats. you're right, there is a cost. simple is expensive. - erik
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Daniel Lyons wrote: > > On Aug 13, 2009, at 3:14 AM, Aaron W. Hsu wrote: > > So, I was browsing around the other day looking at Acme resources, and I >> discovered an old post from 1995 wherein someone advocated the use of >> proportional fonts for programming in Acme. This surprised me, to say the >> least. He even went as far as to mention that SML was the language they were >> using, and had managed to get a decent indenting pattern for it that was >> just as readable, without messing things up for proportional font users. >> >> I have to admit that I'm a bit skeptical about whether such a technique >> actually works, and so, I thought I would pose some questions to you. >> > > Bjarne Stroustrup actually advocates this style in "The C++ Programming > Language." > > This discussion reminds me of this elastic tab stops concept: > > http://nickgravgaard.com/elastictabstops/ > > I don't think it made it into any editors, but it would support the kind of > fancy alignment I like to have in my code while also supporting real fonts, > which I would prefer to use. > > Thirdly, would you continue using proportional width fonts in cases like >> Lisp code, where you very often see something like the following indentation >> scheme, and how would you resolve these indentation problems with >> proportional width fonts if you did continue to use them? >> >>(let ([foo bar] >> [something else]) >> (some-func (called again) >>(with fun indentation) >> (and yet) >> (another))) >> > > > I bet you could set up Emacs to use a proportional font. It can do > anything, right? :) > > I'd love it if Acme or Plan 9 had good support for some kind of Lisp > variant. Acme has good enough support for Lisp in that I can edit the program buffer, and then re-load it all in Acme via the "win" program. I use it with SBCL this way on my mac actually. Emacs + SLIME is pretty nice, but sometimes quite a bit more than I need. > > > — > Daniel Lyons > > >
Re: [9fans] audio standards -- too many to choose from
On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 15:52, erik quanstrom wrote: >> > My list was only there to try and prove the point that Russ has >> > made -- pick a most common format and stick with it. Convert >> > everything else into it. >> By this logic, I need to have my application to convert CDROM-XA ADPCM >> audio from a device into PCM just to talk to an interface, which in turn >> must convert it back into ADPCM to play it back because the DMA >> transfers to the audio hardware buffer require ADPCM. > > the problem with supporting everything the hardware will > do is that it's quite expensive in terms of development time. > and that is the scarce resource that needs to be optimized. > > it also will make the interfaces much bulkier because you have > to make accomidations for the quirks of n formats. > > you're right, there is a cost. simple is expensive. So spend time figuring out the best interface, write what you need, add as you find more you need, refactor if it starts to get crufty. Sometimes you don't get the interface right the first time. That's fine! You can refactor later. It's better to write code and play with it than to get stuck in analysis paralysis. Maybe we're thinking the same thing, and I misunderstand what you're saying. -- Christopher Nielsen "They who can give up essential liberty for temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin
Re: [9fans] audio standards -- too many to choose from
erik quanstrom wrote: >>> My list was only there to try and prove the point that Russ has >>> made -- pick a most common format and stick with it. Convert >>> everything else into it. >> By this logic, I need to have my application to convert CDROM-XA ADPCM >> audio from a device into PCM just to talk to an interface, which in turn >> must convert it back into ADPCM to play it back because the DMA >> transfers to the audio hardware buffer require ADPCM. > > the problem with supporting everything the hardware will > do is that it's quite expensive in terms of development time. > and that is the scarce resource that needs to be optimized. Creative Labs made an EMU10K1x chipset, the "x" means that it came with no hardware mixer. The software driver had to perform the mixing before sending it to the hardware. A device driver that only exposes what the hardware has is much more simple than one that patches missing functionality in the software driver. However if you are instead suggesting that it will take time to support other formats other than signed 16-bit little-endian samples. I have no problem with a driver developer initially starting there leaving it incomplete. At least someone has the potential to add such support. > it also will make the interfaces much bulkier because you have > to make accomidations for the quirks of n formats. > > you're right, there is a cost. simple is expensive. > > - erik I don't see the complexity, the interface merely needs to allow device drivers to provide the information such as "I support x y z", the application can query a "features" file, select a format and write back through the interface configuring the hardware. The interface need not have any predetermined knowledge of available formats. The only issue would be for each device driver to agree to call the same format by the same name, "s8 s16le s24be". To support multiple mix buffers or audio channels, the interface only needs to iterate information provided by the driver. Again, there is no requirement that initial device driver development need support all possible features.
Re: [9fans] audio standards -- too many to choose from
> However if you are instead suggesting that it will take time to support > other formats other than signed 16-bit little-endian samples. I have no > problem with a driver developer initially starting there leaving it > incomplete. At least someone has the potential to add such support. i don't believe i've expressed any preference for one audio format over another. all i've said, is that one format is better than many. > > > it also will make the interfaces much bulkier because you have > > to make accomidations for the quirks of n formats. > > > > you're right, there is a cost. simple is expensive. > > > > - erik > I don't see the complexity, the interface merely needs to allow device > drivers to provide the information such as "I support x y z", the > application can query a "features" file, select a format and write back > through the interface configuring the hardware. The interface need not > have any predetermined knowledge of available formats. The only issue > would be for each device driver to agree to call the same format by the > same name, "s8 s16le s24be". i think you're ignoring the complexity. suppose we wish to support 10 formats. suppose that i have devices that support all 10 formats. then there are 90 different conversions to do to fill in the gaps. now suppose that we pick a format. then we need to write 10 conversions. also each driver potentially needs 1 conversion. if we want to write things like audio mixers or whatnot in software, we only need to support 1 input and 1 output format. the expense is that this is going to cost cycles. it may be a little impractical, but computers are pretty fast these days. i think it might just work. this is exactly the same problem that unix finds itself in supporting n character sets rather than translating on the way in. it's really a great example of optimizing your problem. unix has unwitting made an small problem unsolvable (at least well). (cf. gnu grep.) - erik
[9fans] file server?
Since the how-to's are being discussed recently, I thought it would be a good time to ask: Once, it used to be the "standard" configuration to have one machine as a CPU/auth server, one machine as a file server, and one machine as a "terminal", for a total of three systems, if one had the available hardware. What's the "recommended" setup now? Are most people using a combined cpu/auth/file server running Fossil+Venti, or is the recommendation to use a seperate fossil+venti server dedicated to file serving, and another to serve as CPU/auth? I currently have a cpu/auth server in a vm that I drawterm to and store most of my Plan 9 stuff on, but since I have an opportunity to move some things around, am wondering if this is the best setup. Thanks to all in advance! -Ben
Re: [9fans] 2nd draft of the Cpu/Auth Server howto online
On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 7:02 PM, Corey wrote:
>
> http://www.p9dp.org/plan9-cpu-auth-server-howto.html
>
> This is likely to be the final draft; it has been optimized in various ways
> and
> I have thoroughly tested it multiple times.
>
> Sure would be terrific if a few folks of varying degrees of experience with
> Plan 9 could actually take the document for a real spin and confirm that
> it works as advertised.
>
> For those who are willing to test it - and who can set up a cpu/auth server
> with their eyes closed - please realize it is important that you go through
> the steps verbatim in order to provide a reliable assessment (of course,
> this should be obvious).
>
Hi Corey
I recently used your guide to setup a cpu server. I have to say that
it was a lot clearer than the wiki version. I did remember needing to
uncomment the lines below in cpurc based on my old install.
# if(! test -e /rc/bin/service.auth/il566){
# mv /rc/bin/service.auth/authsrv.il566 /rc/bin/service.auth/il566
# mv /rc/bin/service.auth/authsrv.tcp567 /rc/bin/service.auth/tcp567
# mv /rc/bin/service/il566 /rc/bin/service/!il566
# mv /rc/bin/service/tcp567 /rc/bin/service/!tcp567
# }
I am not sure your guide needs to be updated to do that instead of just
step 5.
term% mv /rc/bin/service.auth/authsrv.tcp567 /rc/bin/service.auth/tcp567
I am not sure of the advantage of doing it either way.
thanks
fernan
--
http://www.fernski.com
Re: [9fans] file server?
I drawterm all the time. Lately I have started using 9vx for quick hacks and then cpu from it to wherever I want to go. It has its quirks (not as stable as drawterm) but I'm not complaining. With drawterm being so solid and well integrated with X11/OSX I haven't had the need to dedicate a terminal to Plan 9 since 2005. If I need to spend a relaxing day at work I simply fire dt full-screen and look at the colors :) So, I guess that means venti+fossil+cpu on one headless machine in some forgotten corner of the datacentre. andrey
Re: [9fans] 2nd draft of the Cpu/Auth Server howto online
On Thursday 13 August 2009 17:36:43 Fernan Bolando wrote:
> I recently used your guide to setup a cpu server. I have to say that
> it was a lot clearer than the wiki version. I did remember needing to
> uncomment the lines below in cpurc based on my old install.
>
> # if(! test -e /rc/bin/service.auth/il566){
> # mv /rc/bin/service.auth/authsrv.il566 /rc/bin/service.auth/il566
> # mv /rc/bin/service.auth/authsrv.tcp567 /rc/bin/service.auth/tcp567
> # mv /rc/bin/service/il566 /rc/bin/service/!il566
> # mv /rc/bin/service/tcp567 /rc/bin/service/!tcp567
> # }
>
> I am not sure your guide needs to be updated to do that instead of just
>
> step 5.
> term% mv /rc/bin/service.auth/authsrv.tcp567 /rc/bin/service.auth/tcp567
>
> I am not sure of the advantage of doing it either way.
>
There were a few considerations involved which induced me to write Step 5
the way it is:
* IL appears to be largely deprecated in lieue of TCP, and certainly is not
necessary to a functional cpu/auth server, so the howto does not configure it
* /rc/bin/service/tcp567 does not exist on a current terminal system as
installed via the latest plan 9 iso images, so the:
mv /rc/bin/service/tcp567 /rc/bin/service/!tcp567
...is unnecessary
* the test in the if statement is not needed once you have performed the
command as per Step 5 ( also, the test as it currently exists in recent
iso's is: if (! test -e /rc/bin/service.auth/tcp567) )
* finally it is the goal of the howto to be as simple as possible and no
simpler - Step 5 is straight-forward and internally consistent with the
rest of the document
Thankyou very much for testing it out - much appreciated!
Cheers,
Corey
Re: [9fans] file server?
> So, I guess that means venti+fossil+cpu on one headless machine in > some forgotten corner of the datacentre. regardless of one's terminal accomidations, i still think it makes a lot of sense to have a stand-alone fileserver. it really does stink if your fs goes down for no reason at all. this is especially true if you're doing a lot of experimenting or don't have a proper terminal. in fact, i think it makes sense to devote two machines to one's fileserver. one diskless fileserver and an coraid storage appliance. :-) shameless, aren't i? - erik
Re: [9fans] file server?
no that data center here, but hopefully at a corner of the room On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 9:55 PM, andrey mirtchovski wrote: > I drawterm all the time. Lately I have started using 9vx for quick > hacks and then cpu from it to wherever I want to go. It has its quirks > (not as stable as drawterm) but I'm not complaining. > > With drawterm being so solid and well integrated with X11/OSX I > haven't had the need to dedicate a terminal to Plan 9 since 2005. If I > need to spend a relaxing day at work I simply fire dt full-screen and > look at the colors :) > > So, I guess that means venti+fossil+cpu on one headless machine in > some forgotten corner of the datacentre. > > andrey > > -- Federico G. Benavento
Re: [9fans] file server?
> Once, it used to be the "standard" configuration to have one machine as a > CPU/auth server, one machine as a file server, and one machine as a > "terminal", for a total of three systems, if one had the available hardware. The power in that model comes primarily when you have a number of terminals being supported by the file and cpu/auth servers. Throwing bigger disks on the file server gives everyone more space. Upgrading the big honkin' cpu server gives everyone a speed boost. Of course, these days, a $400 laptop is more honkin' (in many ways) than big systems of just a few years ago. Still the separation of functionality does have advantages. But I digress... > What's the "recommended" setup now? Are most people using a combined > cpu/auth/file server running Fossil+Venti, or is the recommendation to use a > seperate fossil+venti server dedicated to file serving, and another to serve > as CPU/auth? Currently, I'm running a combined file/cpu/auth server, and I run 9vx in FreeBSD as a terminal connecting to my server. While not mentioned often, 9vx has a -b option that allows you to point it to a file server the same way a terminal does. I can also cpu into the cpu server just like with a real terminal. And when I'm away from home with my laptop, I can still run 9vx with a local file system. As soon as my supply of round tuits is replinished, I intend to put a CPU server in place. BLS
Re: [9fans] audio standards -- too many to choose from
erik quanstrom wrote: >> I don't see the complexity, the interface merely needs to allow device >> drivers to provide the information such as "I support x y z", the >> application can query a "features" file, select a format and write back >> through the interface configuring the hardware. The interface need not >> have any predetermined knowledge of available formats. The only issue >> would be for each device driver to agree to call the same format by the >> same name, "s8 s16le s24be". > > i think you're ignoring the complexity. suppose we wish to > support 10 formats. suppose that i have devices that support > all 10 formats. then there are 90 different conversions to do > to fill in the gaps. now suppose that we pick a format. then > we need to write 10 conversions. also each driver potentially > needs 1 conversion. if we want to write things like audio > mixers or whatnot in software, we only need to support 1 input > and 1 output format. It's a matter of kernelspace vs userspace and freedom. Nothing I have proposed prevents you from using a single format. Nothing I have proposed requires you to implement N formats or conversions. This is because I allow for your freedom to do so in userspace. Rather, your suggestion of forcing a single format, prevents my applications from using other formats, and it requires I implement conversions. This is because you limit freedom by placing a simple interface into kernelspace. If you desire a simple audio server to glue simple audio applications it can be done in userspace, a |filter program can be used by an audio server on top of the device driver. The scope of the complexity of which is completely up to you.
Re: [9fans] 2nd draft of the Cpu/Auth Server howto online
On Thursday 13 August 2009 18:01:03 Corey wrote: > * finally it is the goal of the howto to be as simple as possible and no > simpler - Step 5 is straight-forward and internally consistent with the > rest of the document > Just a quick aside, in order to better satisfy the stated goal is why I removed the rio-on-startup and venti portions of the howto. They are both optional elements, and additionally add extra complexity and windows of opportunity for failure. I will be introducing other documentation, that will be largely similar in form and function to cpu/auth howto, which will cover auxiliary tasks and components of a typical plan 9 environment.
Re: [9fans] file server?
On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 6:01 PM, erik quanstrom wrote: >> So, I guess that means venti+fossil+cpu on one headless machine in >> some forgotten corner of the datacentre. > > regardless of one's terminal accomidations, i still think it makes > a lot of sense to have a stand-alone fileserver. it really does stink > if your fs goes down for no reason at all. this is especially true if > you're doing a lot of experimenting or don't have a proper terminal. > > in fact, i think it makes sense to devote two machines to one's > fileserver. one diskless fileserver and an coraid storage appliance. :-) > > shameless, aren't i? > > - erik > > This is what we do at Sandia. We have one machine which serves cpu/auth/file, but the actual Venti disks are in a Coraid connected via GigE. The fossil disk is in the server, but if it dies we can just build a new one. John -- "Object-oriented design is the roman numerals of computing" -- Rob Pike
Re: [9fans] audio standards -- too many to choose from
James Tomaschke wrote: // ...you limit freedom by placing a simple interface into kernelspace. are you serious?
Re: [9fans] audio standards -- too many to choose from
2009/8/13 James Tomaschke : > erik quanstrom wrote: > >>> I don't see the complexity, the interface merely needs to allow device >>> drivers to provide the information such as "I support x y z", the >>> application can query a "features" file, select a format and write back >>> through the interface configuring the hardware. The interface need not >>> have any predetermined knowledge of available formats. The only issue >>> would be for each device driver to agree to call the same format by the >>> same name, "s8 s16le s24be". >> >> i think you're ignoring the complexity. suppose we wish to >> support 10 formats. suppose that i have devices that support >> all 10 formats. then there are 90 different conversions to do >> to fill in the gaps. now suppose that we pick a format. then >> we need to write 10 conversions. also each driver potentially >> needs 1 conversion. if we want to write things like audio >> mixers or whatnot in software, we only need to support 1 input >> and 1 output format. > It's a matter of kernelspace vs userspace and freedom. > > Nothing I have proposed prevents you from using a single format. > Nothing I have proposed requires you to implement N formats or > conversions. This is because I allow for your freedom to do so in > userspace. > > Rather, your suggestion of forcing a single format, prevents my > applications from using other formats, and it requires I implement > conversions. This is because you limit freedom by placing a simple > interface into kernelspace. This is the silliest thing I've seen posted in this thread. No offense intended, but if you choose the highest available sample size and bit rate available to the card, you are not limiting anybody: the limitation becomes the hardware. If that's an issue, get really ridiculously high quality analog devices, and stop being so anal about your perfect ears. --dho
Re: [9fans] audio standards -- too many to choose from
2009/8/13 Devon H. O'Dell : > 2009/8/13 James Tomaschke : >> Rather, your suggestion of forcing a single format, prevents my >> applications from using other formats, and it requires I implement >> conversions. This is because you limit freedom by placing a simple >> interface into kernelspace. > > This is the silliest thing I've seen posted in this thread. No offense > intended, but if you choose the highest available sample size and bit > rate available to the card, you are not limiting anybody: the > limitation becomes the hardware. If that's an issue, get really > ridiculously high quality analog devices, and stop being so anal about > your perfect ears. And if this is a problem for the processor, resample to the highest input or output format provided. If that's an issue, don't mix so much at once, or get newer hardware or buy a mixer :) --dho
Re: [9fans] file server?
> This is what we do at Sandia. We have one machine which serves > cpu/auth/file, but the actual Venti disks are in a Coraid connected > via GigE. The fossil disk is in the server, but if it dies we can just > build a new one. coraid's configuration using ken's fs is outlined here http://www.quanstro.net/plan9/disklessfs.pdf the one change since the paper has been that the wireless connection has been replaced by 100Mbit fiber. my own setup is here http://www.quanstro.net/plan9/fs.html the advantage to such a setup is than when disks do stupid things, you can take care of the problem without disturbing the fileserver. - erik
Re: [9fans] audio standards -- too many to choose from
Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > 2009/8/13 James Tomaschke : >> Rather, your suggestion of forcing a single format, prevents my >> applications from using other formats, and it requires I implement >> conversions. This is because you limit freedom by placing a simple >> interface into kernelspace. > > This is the silliest thing I've seen posted in this thread. No offense > intended, but if you choose the highest available sample size and bit > rate available to the card, you are not limiting anybody: the > limitation becomes the hardware. If that's an issue, get really > ridiculously high quality analog devices, and stop being so anal about > your perfect ears. How can an application select a higher sample size if the interface to the driver only supports signed 16-bit samples? "the limitation becomes the hardware" Music App 24...@192khz -> #audio 16bit -> Hardware 24...@192khz.
Re: [9fans] audio standards -- too many to choose from
Anthony Sorace wrote: > James Tomaschke wrote: > > // ...you limit freedom by placing a simple interface into kernelspace. > > are you serious? Show me how forcing a single sample format on the user increases their freedom in developing audio applications.
Re: [9fans] audio standards -- too many to choose from
On Wed, 2009-08-12 at 17:36 +0200, hiro wrote: > > This sounds like exactly the kind of thing one wants > > from an audio driver for playback. For recording things > > get slightly more complicated. > > What exactly do you mean? Now that I understand what Tim is trying to do my original concern makes no sense. Sorry for this little bit of noise. > > > Even for playback if you want to do passthrough (via > > SPDIF or some such) things get slightly more complicated. > > Of course, one can disregard passthrough as not > > being an audio at all, but rather a datalink issue. > > What's so special about things like SPDIF? Two things: the data traveling over the link can be any data, not just some form of PCM (it can be AC-3, it can be DTS, it can even be MP3). In that respect the audio card acts as a pass-through device. It is not really supposed to do anything with the data. And that brings us to the second point -- the pass-through APIs can be as ugly as hell, depending on the type of the device (follow the link to the MPlayer docs I provided in this thread). > Why would it be not suitible for the kernel audio driver? Because it has very little to do with the PCM audio, and that's what the driver discussed in this thread was supposed to be all about. Now, I'm not saying that there's shouldn't be a special driver just for pass-through type of functionality, all I'm saying is that lumping this functionality together with the PCM one would confuse things. > For me it's clearly an audio and > not a datalink issue, but perhaps I have only limited use cases. Perhaps, everywhere in this thread I should've prefixed the word audio with "some form of PCM". Thanks, Roman.
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
On Thu, 2009-08-13 at 11:55 -0600, Daniel Lyons wrote: > I'd love it if Acme or Plan 9 had good support for some kind of Lisp > variant. Speaking of which (or may be not ;-)) is there anybody using Lua on Plan9? Thanks, Roman. P.S. The more I look into Lua (as a way to help C refuge start doing some functional stuff) the more it seems that the two have a lot in common when it comes to software architecture.
Re: [9fans] audio standards -- too many to choose from
>Hardware 24...@192khz. the human ear can't hear as high as that still, it ought to please any passing bat! Hi-fi, hi-fi, ...
Re: [9fans] audio standards -- too many to choose from
Charles Forsyth wrote: >> Hardware 24...@192khz. > > the human ear can't hear as high as that > still, it ought to please any passing bat! > Hi-fi, hi-fi, ... So if i instead said 24...@44.1khz would it make any difference on my argument? please. You are right, however 192kHz means the DAC bandwidth could support 4x 48kHz buffers, which is what it's used for.
Re: [9fans] Thrift RPC
On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 4:27 PM, David Leimbach wrote: > On 8/13/09, erik quanstrom wrote: >>> we don't use te*xt for 9p, do we? >> >> the difference being, 9p is the transport not >> the representation of the data and 9p has >> a fixed set of messages. >> > > Also 9p aims at file systems pretty obviously where Thirft is a > generic RPC mechanism with stub compilers for bindings for several > languages. > > I have not been able to convince coworkers that filesystem namespaces > are the way to go. I think they think it is too hard. > > *shrug* you can lead a horse... Funny, the problem I usually have is that people think file systems are *too simple*, oh, no data types other than *byte stream* and *drectory*, and no type checking! We are all going to die! People seem to have trouble believing something simple can do a job that they have convinced themselves needs to be very complicated. uriel
