Re: [AFMUG] 120v UPS with Li-ion or LiPoFe batteries - some questions

[Mathew Howard]

I'm not sure if the life or risk of fire is significantly different or not
with LiFePo4 vs Li-ion, but they're more suitable for a lead acid
replacement because of the voltage and charging profile, if I understand
correctly.

>From what I've seen, they generally are fine with a lead-acid charging
profile, but you probably want to verify that it doesn't go above ~58v
(assuming this is a 48v system). A higher end BMS might be able to deal
with higher voltages, but I haven't looked into that, so I couldn't say for
sure.

I've ordered from 18650batterystore.com a couple of times. They seem to
have some of the best prices around, but there could be better options for
large quantities.

On Tue, Sep 5, 2023 at 9:53 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> I have had little lithium experience to date but I think the answer to all
> of your questions is YES.
>
> The solar guys have been quoting deals like this:  305ah 3.2 Grade B cell
> ($89) x 32 = $2,848 for 31kwh, 610ah, 51.2v 16s2p configuration for a 48v
> system
>
> That is 9 cents per watt hour.  Half the cost of lead acid, will do many
> more cycles.  Much lighter.  Much smaller.  I think that you should sell
> your stock in the lead acid battery factories.
>
> Best Regards,
> Chuck McCown
>
> McCown Technology Corporation
> 8401 N Commerce Dr
> Lake Point, Utah 84074
> 801-250-9503 Office
> 435-830-4306 Cell
> www.mccowntech.com
> www.microtrench.pro
> www.terabitnetworks.com
>
> *From:* Brough Turner - netBlazr
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 5, 2023 5:38 AM
> *To:* Chuck McCown via AF
> *Cc:* Brough Turner
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] 120v UPS with Li-ion or LiPoFe batteries - some
> questions
>
> I understand LiPoFe is preferable to Li-ion (longer life, less chance of
> fire).  Is this correct?
>
> Can the BMS compensate for a for lead-acid UPS's charging profile?
>
> Is there a battery with a BMS that can be monitored via a network
> connection.
>
> Any recommendations for where to buy batteries in pallet-level quantities?
>
> Thanks,
> Brough
>
> --
> --
> AF mailing list
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>
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah... for on-grid backup power, running heaters shouldn't be a big
problem, but off-grid is a different animal. Warming the batteries up
enough to charge could take a lot of power.

All the lifepo4 batteries I've looked at list the minimum discharge
temperature at -20C, which isn't terrible, but they need to be at least 0C
to charge. The discharge temperature isn't hard cut-off where it won't work
or will wreck the batteries sort of thing, as far as I can tell, but the
charging temperature is.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 6:02 PM Robert Andrews 
wrote:

> For off grid, it also has to have heaters.  Not being able to charge is
> just as crippling if your site never gets above freezing long enough to
> charge the batteries in the winter.   Getting the batteries heated JUST
> off the solar output ( not off of grid power ) is tricky and I am not
> convinced that anything less than an 8K solar array is going to keep a
> LFP site with any real draw happy over a winter.   That's a killer...
>
> On 8/17/23 13:58, Brian Webster wrote:
> > The temp issue as I understand it is the low temp disconnect when charge
> > so as not to try and charge when the batteries are too cold. The LiTime
> > batteries now have low temp disconnect in their internal battery BMS.
> > Their prices are very good. The longevity of LiFePo batteries more than
> > justifies the slightly added cost for the battery. If the temperature
> > does not stay below the disconnect temp for longer than you have run
> > time, you are good. Remembering the LiFePo batteries give you full
> > capacity of their rated WH not only 50% like lead acid. They are a lot
> > lighter too. So more useable WH can also reduce your battery count (and
> > overall cost) that you need. Use a proper LiFePo charger and the
> > charging profile lets you dump almost full capacity to the batteries
> > that the panels produce. This should get the battery up to or closer to
> > the full voltage sooner, allowing you to run the equipment off the power
> > from the panels for a longer period of time as well. This of course
> > stretches your battery capacity too. When you can push full current
> > through the charger to the batteries, even short periods of sun can get
> > your battery charged or partially charged faster than the charging
> > profiles required for lead acid or AGM batteries.
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Brian Webster
> >
> > *From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> > *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 4:14 PM
> > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
> >
> > Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to lithiums.
> > I can throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's
> > going to work good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the minimum
> > charging temperature for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to be
> > below for a good part of the year.
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince  > <mailto:part15...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same
> > price as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half
> > the space as lead acid, and will last at least twice as long. There
> > is the issue of temperature sensitivity and they will need help for
> > extremely cold environments.
> >
> > bp
> >
> > 
> >
> > On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com
> > <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
> >
> > Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x
> > the $/Wh to buy Lithium.
> >
> > *From:* AF 
> > <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> > *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
> > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> > <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
> > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
> >
> > Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and
> > space requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries
> > don't last forever, so you have to factor in replacement costs
> > too, which will be a significant ongoing cost for a larger
> > system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries would be cheaper
> > long term now, since they should have a lot longer life span and
> > the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Mathew Howard]

Most of them that I've looked at say they support up to 4 in series,
whether they work well or not, I don't know. I imagine they could end up
with balance issues over time, but other than that, I don't know what
problems there would be.

I said 125 because the nominal voltage for lifepo4 cells is 3.2v. Full
charge is 3.65v, but if I remember correctly, they'll drop down to around
3.4v pretty quickly and then level off. If you need to keep above 400v,
you'd want 125.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 5:09 PM TJ Trout  wrote:

> Which did you see that supports beyond 4 in series? I would be interested
> to check those out.
>
> 125*3.65vpc= 456v
>
> I guess you need 125 if your running at nominal voltage (partial state of
> charge)
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 2:35 PM Mathew Howard  wrote:
>
>> I put four of the sealed 12v lifepo4 batteries in an electric lawn mower
>> (it originally had lead acid), and it works well enough, but yeah, a single
>> BMS is preferable, and I haven't seen any that say they can do more than 4
>> in series anyway.
>>
>> With lifepo4 you'll need 125 cells to get 400v... I'm not sure where
>> you'd find a BMS that will handle that though. I assume there must be
>> something out there.
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 4:06 PM TJ Trout  wrote:
>>
>>> Many of them have integrated heaters.
>>>
>>> Sealed lifepo4 batteries should only be used at the nameplate voltage
>>> 12v for example, some will support up to four in series for a 48 volt
>>> configuration but it's a hack job to do it that way.
>>>
>>> If you need 400v at 100ah you will need 110 qty of 100ah cells and a
>>> compatible BMS.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:51 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> My electric car loses significant range at temps below 35F and as a
>>>> double whammy, will not accept a full charge at low temps either.
>>>>
>>>> Lead acid work at low temps but if they get too far discharged they
>>>> will freeze.  Gates Cyclons were advertised to be able to be fully charged
>>>> and discharged when frozen.
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Mathew Howard
>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 2:13 PM
>>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to
>>>> lithiums. I can throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and
>>>> it's going to work good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the
>>>> minimum charging temperature for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to
>>>> be below for a good part of the year.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same
>>>>> price as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half the
>>>>> space as lead acid, and will last at least twice as long. There is the
>>>>> issue of temperature sensitivity and they will need help for extremely 
>>>>> cold
>>>>> environments.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> bp
>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
>>>>>
>>>>> Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh
>>>>> to buy Lithium.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
>>>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space
>>>>> requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever,
>>>>> so you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a 
>>>>> significant
>>>>> ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries
>>>>> would be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life
>>>>> span and the initial cost isn't a lot high

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Mathew Howard]

I put four of the sealed 12v lifepo4 batteries in an electric lawn mower
(it originally had lead acid), and it works well enough, but yeah, a single
BMS is preferable, and I haven't seen any that say they can do more than 4
in series anyway.

With lifepo4 you'll need 125 cells to get 400v... I'm not sure where you'd
find a BMS that will handle that though. I assume there must be something
out there.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 4:06 PM TJ Trout  wrote:

> Many of them have integrated heaters.
>
> Sealed lifepo4 batteries should only be used at the nameplate voltage 12v
> for example, some will support up to four in series for a 48 volt
> configuration but it's a hack job to do it that way.
>
> If you need 400v at 100ah you will need 110 qty of 100ah cells and a
> compatible BMS.
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:51 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:
>
>> My electric car loses significant range at temps below 35F and as a
>> double whammy, will not accept a full charge at low temps either.
>>
>> Lead acid work at low temps but if they get too far discharged they will
>> freeze.  Gates Cyclons were advertised to be able to be fully charged and
>> discharged when frozen.
>>
>> *From:* Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 2:13 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>
>> Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to lithiums.
>> I can throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's going
>> to work good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the minimum charging
>> temperature for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to be below for a
>> good part of the year.
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince  wrote:
>>
>>> Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same
>>> price as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half the
>>> space as lead acid, and will last at least twice as long. There is the
>>> issue of temperature sensitivity and they will need help for extremely cold
>>> environments.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> bp
>>> 
>>>
>>> On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
>>>
>>> Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh
>>> to buy Lithium.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space
>>> requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever,
>>> so you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant
>>> ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries
>>> would be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life
>>> span and the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required,
>>> which means you need more power.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:
>>>
>>> That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny
>>> load does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger
>>> backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power
>>> system proportionally.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is
>>> using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of
>>> garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for
>>> an AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
>>> most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but
>>> building for a 20W load takes the choice away.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even
>>> 2400W would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any
>>> load you might have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs
>>> you.
>>>
>>> You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then
>>> it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.
>>>
>>>
>>&

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to lithiums. I
can throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's going to
work good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the minimum charging
temperature for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to be below for a
good part of the year.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince  wrote:

> Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same price
> as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half the space as
> lead acid, and will last at least twice as long. There is the issue of
> temperature sensitivity and they will need help for extremely cold
> environments.
>
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
>
> Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh to
> buy Lithium.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF   *On Behalf
> Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space
> requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever,
> so you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant
> ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries
> would be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life
> span and the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required,
> which means you need more power.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:
>
> That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load
> does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger
> backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power
> system proportionally.
>
>
>
> Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is
> using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of
> garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for
> an AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
> most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but
> building for a 20W load takes the choice away.
>
>
>
> A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W
> would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load
> you might have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs
> you.
>
> You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then
> it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.
>
>
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra
> battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd
> probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something
> together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts
> (if mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying
> to fit it on a pole).
>
>
>
> A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those
> would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is
> mostly just adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k),
> I'm right in line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM  wrote:
>
> I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m
> 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N
>
> What’s your latitude?
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site
> like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load
> is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had
> some issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using
> cheap flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's
> gotten through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can
> be had for around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500
> when you add in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts
> that are nee

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Mathew Howard]

LiFePO4. There are a few different ways you can go with that though. You
can get something like these:
https://www.18650batterystore.com/products/eve-lf280k which I think
actually comes out slightly cheaper than SLA/AGM, but then you need a
separate BMS, or you can get something like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/166234057827 which is made to be a drop in
replacement for lead acids, and has a built in BMS.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 2:37 PM  wrote:

> Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
>
> Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh to
> buy Lithium.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space
> requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever,
> so you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant
> ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries
> would be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life
> span and the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required,
> which means you need more power.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:
>
> That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load
> does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger
> backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power
> system proportionally.
>
>
>
> Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is
> using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of
> garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for
> an AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
> most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but
> building for a 20W load takes the choice away.
>
>
>
> A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W
> would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load
> you might have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs
> you.
>
> You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then
> it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.
>
>
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra
> battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd
> probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something
> together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts
> (if mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying
> to fit it on a pole).
>
>
>
> A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those
> would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is
> mostly just adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k),
> I'm right in line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM  wrote:
>
> I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m
> 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N
>
> What’s your latitude?
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site
> like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load
> is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had
> some issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using
> cheap flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's
> gotten through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can
> be had for around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500
> when you add in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts
> that are needed with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries,
> power supply), so that offsets it a bit.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
> Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top
> location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Mathew Howard]

Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space
requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever,
so you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant
ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries
would be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life
span and the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required,
which means you need more power.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:

> That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load
> does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger
> backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power
> system proportionally.
>
>
>
> Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is
> using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of
> garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for
> an AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
> most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but
> building for a 20W load takes the choice away.
>
>
>
> A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W
> would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load
> you might have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs
> you.
>
> You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then
> it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.
>
>
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra
> battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd
> probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something
> together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts
> (if mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying
> to fit it on a pole).
>
>
>
> A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those
> would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is
> mostly just adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k),
> I'm right in line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM  wrote:
>
> I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m
> 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N
>
> What’s your latitude?
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site
> like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load
> is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had
> some issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using
> cheap flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's
> gotten through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can
> be had for around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500
> when you add in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts
> that are needed with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries,
> power supply), so that offsets it a bit.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
> Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top
> location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never failed
> me:
>
>
>
> Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.
>
> 2 weeks of battery autonomy.
>
> 20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts
>
> Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.
>
>
>
> $2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude on top
> of Utah mountains.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Mathew Howard
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM
>
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop can
> be done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). I can put
> together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:
>
> I 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Mathew Howard]

I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra
battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd
probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something
together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts
(if mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying
to fit it on a pole).

A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those
would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is
mostly just adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k),
I'm right in line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM  wrote:

> I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m
> 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N
>
> What’s your latitude?
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site
> like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load
> is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had
> some issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using
> cheap flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's
> gotten through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can
> be had for around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500
> when you add in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts
> that are needed with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries,
> power supply), so that offsets it a bit.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
> Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top
> location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never failed
> me:
>
>
>
> Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.
>
> 2 weeks of battery autonomy.
>
> 20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts
>
> Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.
>
>
>
> $2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude on top
> of Utah mountains.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Mathew Howard
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM
>
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop can
> be done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). I can put
> together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:
>
> I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll be
> cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You have to
> design around the December-January months.  I’m in NY State, and at our
> latitude we only get a few hours of average production per day during those
> months.  And obviously if it’s snowing for a week you need to be able to
> ride through that on mostly battery power.  Even with a modest load it
> takes a silly amount of panels and batteries to stay up 24/7 in the
> winter.  More than you’d ever be allowed to put on a utility pole.
>
>
>
> Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get.  Explain
> what you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.
>
> NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception and
> let us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a conduit up
> the pole and a weatherhead.  Then you either have an outdoor outlet, or
> have an outlet inside your enclosure.  You’ll want the smallest service
> they’ll let you do because of the wire size on the service cable.  A 20A
> (if they’d allow it) would only need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to
> 4800 Watts (240x20) so it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is
> way cheaper than a 100A service entrance cable.
>
>
>
> My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since then,
> but I went to the same contractor who does electric installs for the cable
> company and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s 3x that for you today
> you’d still never beat that with a solar installation even if they’d let
> you do it.  And I’m not some knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying
> I’ve run the numbers and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off
> grid, or when the electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes
> just for the PR/marketing power of bein

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site
like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load
is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had
some issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using
cheap flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's
gotten through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can
be had for around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500
when you add in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts
that are needed with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries,
power supply), so that offsets it a bit.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top
> location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never failed
> me:
>
> Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.
> 2 weeks of battery autonomy.
> 20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts
> Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.
>
> $2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude on top
> of Utah mountains.
>
>
>
> *From:* Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
> It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop can
> be done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). I can put
> together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:
>
>> I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll be
>> cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You have to
>> design around the December-January months.  I’m in NY State, and at our
>> latitude we only get a few hours of average production per day during those
>> months.  And obviously if it’s snowing for a week you need to be able to
>> ride through that on mostly battery power.  Even with a modest load it
>> takes a silly amount of panels and batteries to stay up 24/7 in the
>> winter.  More than you’d ever be allowed to put on a utility pole.
>>
>>
>>
>> Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get.  Explain
>> what you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.
>>
>> NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception and
>> let us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a conduit up
>> the pole and a weatherhead.  Then you either have an outdoor outlet, or
>> have an outlet inside your enclosure.  You’ll want the smallest service
>> they’ll let you do because of the wire size on the service cable.  A 20A
>> (if they’d allow it) would only need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to
>> 4800 Watts (240x20) so it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is
>> way cheaper than a 100A service entrance cable.
>>
>>
>>
>> My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since
>> then, but I went to the same contractor who does electric installs for the
>> cable company and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s 3x that for you
>> today you’d still never beat that with a solar installation even if they’d
>> let you do it.  And I’m not some knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just
>> saying I’ve run the numbers and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when
>> they’re off grid, or when the electric service is unreliable in the area,
>> or sometimes just for the PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.
>> Those are all fine reasons, but doing it for cost savings isn’t going to
>> work out.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Adam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>
>>
>>
>> we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our own
>> poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they decommissioned the
>> elevator and theres no real options for the customers in some of the areas.
>> Im just trying to get to something we can get solar power with enough
>> battery to last through overcast. So Im calculating per battery runtimes,
>> then will look at number of batteries we would need to survive vs paying
>> for a ROW meter vs losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost per
>> customer to retain them and the benefit gained per pole
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
&g

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Mathew Howard]

It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop can
be done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). I can put
together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:

> I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll be
> cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You have to
> design around the December-January months.  I’m in NY State, and at our
> latitude we only get a few hours of average production per day during those
> months.  And obviously if it’s snowing for a week you need to be able to
> ride through that on mostly battery power.  Even with a modest load it
> takes a silly amount of panels and batteries to stay up 24/7 in the
> winter.  More than you’d ever be allowed to put on a utility pole.
>
>
>
> Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get.  Explain
> what you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.
>
> NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception and
> let us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a conduit up
> the pole and a weatherhead.  Then you either have an outdoor outlet, or
> have an outlet inside your enclosure.  You’ll want the smallest service
> they’ll let you do because of the wire size on the service cable.  A 20A
> (if they’d allow it) would only need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to
> 4800 Watts (240x20) so it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is
> way cheaper than a 100A service entrance cable.
>
>
>
> My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since then,
> but I went to the same contractor who does electric installs for the cable
> company and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s 3x that for you today
> you’d still never beat that with a solar installation even if they’d let
> you do it.  And I’m not some knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying
> I’ve run the numbers and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off
> grid, or when the electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes
> just for the PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.  Those are all
> fine reasons, but doing it for cost savings isn’t going to work out.
>
>
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our own
> poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they decommissioned the
> elevator and theres no real options for the customers in some of the areas.
> Im just trying to get to something we can get solar power with enough
> battery to last through overcast. So Im calculating per battery runtimes,
> then will look at number of batteries we would need to survive vs paying
> for a ROW meter vs losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost per
> customer to retain them and the benefit gained per pole
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster 
> wrote:
>
> How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages other than
> the 48 volts? If you have 4 batteries and only need 48 volts then wire them
> in series and not have to deal with the converter.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Brian Webster
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *
> dmmoff...@gmail.com
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:59 AM
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> *You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end *of capacity*.
>
> Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the battery.  I
> realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
> *Subject:* RE: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> You can do the whole thing in Watts.
>
>
>
> 12V * 150ah = 1800 Watt-hours
>
> 1800Wh / 50W = 36 hours
>
>
>
> If they’re telling me 95% efficiency, I’d assume 50W out needs 53W in (50
> / 0.95).
>
> There’s usually an efficiency curve for the device based on load and
> temperature so it wouldn’t be 95% in all circumstances.  Your system should
> be drawing less than 5A off the battery, and if your multimeter has a 10A
> fuse like most do, then you could put the meter in line and actually
> measure the amperage before and after the converter.  Then you’d know for
> sure.
>
>
>
> And the battery’s total capacity will have a curve based on C-rate so
> there’s some variability there too.  Usually it lasts longer when you’re
> drawing lower amperage.  You’re around C/30 which should be on the high
> end.
>
>
>
> Age and maintenance of the battery affect runtime as well.  If I want 6
> hours of runtime then I plan Ah for 12 hours runtime. When my batteries are
> halfway toasted I’m still getting useful life out of 

Re: [AFMUG] Silly battery question

[Mathew Howard]

Technically, AGM batteries are lead acid batteries. But not all lead acid
batteries are AGM, obviously.

On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 3:03 PM Nate Burke  wrote:

> The Site I bought the charger off of listed it as an AGM charger, but
> nowhere on the charger, or the documentation that came with it does it
> say anything other than "Lead acid only"  It is a 3 stage 48v charger.
>
> On 3/13/2023 2:42 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
> > Yeah, we used GMP AGM cells in telco C.O. years ago. Used the same
> > chargers that had been charging the flooded cells. Not a problem.
> >
> > -Original Message- From: Nate Burke
> > Sent: Monday, March 13, 2023 1:09 PM
> > To: Animal Farm
> > Subject: [AFMUG] Silly battery question
> >
> > If I have a charger that is for 'Lead Acid batteries only' Can I charge
> > AGM Batteries with it?  They're fundamentally the same, right?
> >
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] Sas fees

[Mathew Howard]

Cambium uses either Google or Federated, but it gets billed through Cambium
instead of directly from the SAS provider. It's $3 regardless of which one
you use, I believe.

On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 2:19 PM TJ Trout  wrote:

> So is 'cambium' = federated? $3/sub? And google is $2.25 per sub?
>
> If you have a billing system and a qoe system you end up giving away close
> to $10 a sub that's crazy!
>
> On Tue, Feb 7, 2023, 12:08 PM Josh Luthman 
> wrote:
>
>> Generally speaking it's $2.25 per device.
>>
>> Cambium doesn't charge per AP, they charge per SM, and the rate is $3.
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 2:50 PM Steve Jones 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> thats cheap, you must not be using cambium
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 1:21 PM TJ Trout  wrote:
>>>
 Are cbrs sas fees really $2+ per customer? That's what I saw on Google
 SAS, that's crazy!
 --
 AF mailing list
 AF@af.afmug.com
 http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] Nfinitrbroadband

[Mathew Howard]

We have a few connections running on UBNT Wave at around a half mile, with
pretty good results - no real problems with rain fade, so far.

You'll get less than half of that out of any of the other 60ghz options
currently out there, if you don't want it dropping everytime it rains
(ubiquiti is the only one that can use the upper 60ghz band, at this point).

On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 10:28 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> At what range?
>
> *From:* Daniel White
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 3, 2023 8:46 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group ; Chuck McCown via AF
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Nfinitrbroadband
>
> 60GHz PTMP does Gigabit.
>
> UBNT Wave - https://store.ui.com/products/wave-ap
> Cambium cnWave -
> https://www.cambiumnetworks.com/products/cnwave/60-ghz-cnwave-v5000/
>
> [image: photograph]
> Daniel White
> Co-Founder
> phone: +1 (702) 470-2770
> direct: +1 (702) 470-2766
>
> Chuck McCown via AF
> January 1, 2023 at 17:38
> https://www.nfinitybroadband.com/
>
> Got the name wrong.
>
> *From:* CBB - Jay Fuller
> *Sent:* Sunday, January 1, 2023 4:28 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Cc:* Chuck McCown
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Nfinitrbroadband
>
>
> Dallin Boyce - CEO
>
> Fota...fiber over the air.  Ok.  ?
>
> - Reply message -
> From: "Chuck McCown via AF" mailto:af@af.afmug.com
> To: mailto:af@af.afmug.com
> Cc: "Chuck McCown" mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com
> Subject: [AFMUG] Nfinitrbroadband
> Date: Sat, Dec 31, 2022 11:44 AM
>
> Advertising gig fiber over the air. Who and what are they really?
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
> --
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] 900 MHz PtP

[Mathew Howard]

You'd want PTP-450i, not PMP, which is going to be much cheaper (you'd
still be looking at over $1k for a link though).

But yeah, that doesn't sound very promising... 900mhz isn't going to go
through rock.

You should be able to get an old PMP-100 AP and SM for next to nothing if
you really want to try it.

On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 9:57 AM Craig Baird  wrote:

> I was afraid that would be the case. I guess I'll probably have to pitch
> the 450i to them. Although honestly, I'm not really all that certain 900
> MHz will even cut it. This is for the city water company. They have a well
> up a canyon. About 1/4 mile down the road, they have a cistern. They have
> Internet at the cistern and want to get it connected to the well because
> they want to install some security cameras and a DVR at the well. Problem
> is that there's a rock outcropping between the two sites. Back in my WISP
> days, we did 900 MHz through trees. But I never tried it through rock. It
> was finicky enough through trees, so I'm not sure I even want to try going
> through a rock/hill. I figure there might be some reflection off the canyon
> walls that might help, but for the cost of a 450i (especially the AP), I'm
> not sure I want to gamble on it. That's why I was hoping for a cheap
> solution. Maybe I'll try the eBay route and see what I can find.
>
> Craig
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 4:04 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
>> I think the 450 is all you’ve got.
>>
>> For me, nlos isn’t worth pursuing anymore. The link degrades over years
>> as trees grow and there’s nothing much you can do about it.  I would
>> rather say “no” and pursue something else with my time.   But If I had to
>> do 900MHz I think 450i is the only reasonable choice that I’m aware of.
>>
>> You could hunt for old cards or old ubnt on eBay I guess.
>>
>> Get Outlook for iOS 
>> --
>> *From:* AF  on behalf of Craig Baird <
>> cr...@xpressweb.com>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2022 2:12:04 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] 900 MHz PtP
>>
>> Is there a good source for an inexpensive, but reliable 900 MHz PtP,
>> solution these days? Looking for something for a client that needs a nLOS
>> link. All I can find is Cambium 450, which seems crazy expensive for what
>> I'm looking for. Back in my WISP days, I seem to recall you could throw
>> together a pretty cheap, reliable 900 MHz solution with Mikrotik, but it
>> seems those have gone the way of the dodo. Seems UBNT doesn't sell 900 MHz
>> stuff anymore either. Guessing the small band size probably made 900 MHz
>> impractical for delivering the speeds generally required these days. Can
>> anyone point me at anything?
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> --
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Re: [AFMUG] 900 MHz PtP

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah, as far as I know, 450i is the only thing that's still in production.

Last I checked, all the old ubnt stuff on eBay was going for nearly as much
as new ptp 450 anyway, so that's probably not very realistic either.

The only cheap way to do it is probably to use some old pmp100 radios, but
that's only going to get you 4mbps.

On Tue, Aug 16, 2022, 5:03 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:

> I think the 450 is all you’ve got.
>
> For me, nlos isn’t worth pursuing anymore. The link degrades over years as
> trees grow and there’s nothing much you can do about it.  I would rather
> say “no” and pursue something else with my time.   But If I had to do
> 900MHz I think 450i is the only reasonable choice that I’m aware of.
>
> You could hunt for old cards or old ubnt on eBay I guess.
>
> Get Outlook for iOS 
> --
> *From:* AF  on behalf of Craig Baird <
> cr...@xpressweb.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2022 2:12:04 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] 900 MHz PtP
>
> Is there a good source for an inexpensive, but reliable 900 MHz PtP,
> solution these days? Looking for something for a client that needs a nLOS
> link. All I can find is Cambium 450, which seems crazy expensive for what
> I'm looking for. Back in my WISP days, I seem to recall you could throw
> together a pretty cheap, reliable 900 MHz solution with Mikrotik, but it
> seems those have gone the way of the dodo. Seems UBNT doesn't sell 900 MHz
> stuff anymore either. Guessing the small band size probably made 900 MHz
> impractical for delivering the speeds generally required these days. Can
> anyone point me at anything?
>
> Craig
>
> --
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Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik CCR PoE Input

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah... Gigabit PoE has to have magnetics, so it shouldn't be a problem.

On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 1:50 PM Bill Prince  wrote:

> POE can be done with GigE and 48V, but you need the magnetics to isolate
> the power from ethernet. The equipment at both ends needs the isolating
> transformers (AKA magnetics).
>
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 8/2/2022 10:39 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:
>
> Time and place for everything.  I'm not sure you can do -48vdc via POE,
> which means my 1009 would probably blow up.  You have no redundant power if
> it's just the one POE input.  If it works...send it!
>
> On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 12:44 PM Jason McKemie <
> j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:
>
>> These are 1009's, they are labeled for PoE.
>>
>> I like the 48v power supply option as well, I just thought I'd use the
>> PoE input since it is already present.  Unless there is a compelling reason
>> to do otherwise.
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 1, 2022 at 4:05 PM Mathew Howard 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> What variant of CCR? I don't think they all support PoE.
>>>
>>> Every MikroTik PoE device I've seen just uses 4,5+/7/8-. I don't know
>>> that you'd need all four pairs, although most gigabit PoE devices will take
>>> power on any combination of pins.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 1, 2022 at 2:50 PM Jason McKemie <
>>> j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Does anyone know what pins work for powering a compatible CCR unit via
>>>> DC?  I can't seem to find anything that specs more than two pairs, I assume
>>>> I need all 4 pairs for power and gigabit data. I'd like to power a couple
>>>> of CCR's using ports on a rackinjector.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>> --
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>>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>>
>>> --
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>>>
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>>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik CCR PoE Input

[Mathew Howard]

What variant of CCR? I don't think they all support PoE.

Every MikroTik PoE device I've seen just uses 4,5+/7/8-. I don't know that
you'd need all four pairs, although most gigabit PoE devices will take
power on any combination of pins.

On Mon, Aug 1, 2022 at 2:50 PM Jason McKemie <
j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:

> Does anyone know what pins work for powering a compatible CCR unit via
> DC?  I can't seem to find anything that specs more than two pairs, I assume
> I need all 4 pairs for power and gigabit data. I'd like to power a couple
> of CCR's using ports on a rackinjector.
>
> Thanks.
> --
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[AFMUG] FS: Canopy PMP450i 900mhz

[Mathew Howard]

I have a used Canopy PMP450i 900mhz AP for sale - $1500/offer

I also have SMs available (no antennas), make offer if interested.
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Re: [AFMUG] 5gb/s Short Wireless

[Mathew Howard]

Airfiber 60XG is supposed to be able to do 6gbps

Isn't cnWAVE supposed to be able to do something like 7.6gbps in a ptp
setup?

On Sat, Jul 23, 2022, 11:47 AM Nate Burke  wrote:

> Looking to do a 100-200m Wireless 5gb/s temporary link.  I don't think
> cnWAVE does channel bonding until q3.  I guess I could do 2 links and
> LAG them.  I need to get 5gb/s extended across a highway for a 2 month
> event.  Don't want to bother with permits/boring, I don't think I could
> get permits in time.
>
> Could do 80GHZ, but they're more expensive and have to FCC License. Any
> other gear out there that won't break the bank?
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Tower PoE Switch Recommendations

[Mathew Howard]

Any word on when the 5009 UPr might be available? I expect we'll be using a
lot of those...

On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 6:48 AM Dennis Burgess 
wrote:

> MikroTik 328-48P or 24P is a good rackmount switch.  The 24Ps have been
> out of stock though, but we have quite a few 48P’s in stock.These are
> dual voltage.
>
>
>
> Another thought is the new 5009 UPr, these you can put a rackmount kit
> with them, and install 4 of them in one U of space and will have 8 POE out,
> but they are not dual voltage, but they are a great router I foresee these
> being installed at tower sites once they become mainstream.
>
>
>
>
>
> *[image: LTI-Full_175px]*
>
> *Dennis Burgess*
>
>
> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
>
> *Link Technologies, Inc* -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
>
> *Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
>
> Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
>
> Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Jason McKemie
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 19, 2022 10:37 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Tower PoE Switch Recommendations
>
>
>
> Does anyone have any recommendations on a solid PoE switch to use at a
> tower site? It would be nice if it had dual voltage options as well.
> --
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Re: [AFMUG] OT solar panels

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah, that's just what I was thinking. "recycling" old solar panels could
be a good business opportunity.

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 1:58 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> Yes.  If you could get a BLM lease for a large chunk of ground, you could
> plant them and who cares if it takes twice the acrage, $500/hour/megawatt
> would be a nice income stream.  And there is some good math behind just
> laying them flat on the ground, with a tiny bit of angle on the N/S axis so
> one is oriented to the East and one to the West.  They get almost as much
> energy per day and you can utilize 100% of the property if that is an
> issue.
>
> *From:* Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2022 12:33 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT solar panels
>
> I find it pretty hard to believe that a lot of solar panels that get
> replaced just because they're "at the end of their life cycle". I'd bet
> that there will be a decent market for used panels that can still do ~50%
> of their output.  If nothing else, somebody should start collecting them
> all and fill a nice patch of desert with them.
>
> On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 1:12 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> OK, hyperbole, the stream of waste has hardly started.
>> Not filling up the landfills.
>>
>> The type of waste?  Copper, Selenium?
>> You can buy supplements of those at the drug store.
>>
>> Arsenic?  Very little in a panel.
>> And Arsenic has a hormetic effect.  People are healthier if their
>> drinking water contains a little vs none.  Not sure this is a significant
>> issue.  Like to know more.
>>
>> And solar panels degrade about 0.5-1% a year.  The article says many
>> panels are coming to the end of their 25 year life.  Hey, I will not
>> uninstall mine until they are below 50%.  Just cheap that way.
>>
>> I am surprised California is so flat.  Flatter than Nebraska.  This is
>> due to the frequent “sky is falling” issues there.
>>
>> Glad to see that Diablo is getting a new lease on life.  Nuclear will
>> solve everything.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Bill Prince
>> *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2022 11:26 AM
>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT solar panels
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Here's a PDF of the article in today's Merc.
>>
>>
>>
>> bp
>> 
>>
>> On 7/15/2022 9:53 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>>
>> The LA times has an article about CA landfills filling up with solar
>> panels.  It is behind a paywall, so I guess I won’t read it.  Sounds like
>> hyperbole to me.  First, the all the solar panels in the state, by volume
>> probably don’t match a weeks’ worth of municipal solid waste by volume, so
>> that is hardly filling up the landfills.  Second, it hints they are toxic.
>> Really?  Glass and aluminum.  Silicon dioxide is just purified glass.  Yes,
>> they do have dopants in them.  And there is some solder but probably rohs
>> solder.
>>
>> Is there any truth to this?  Secondly, why?  Are there really that many
>> worn out solar panels?  I have never had one wear out to the point that I
>> disposed of it.  And I have had solar panels of some sort for close to 50
>> years.
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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>>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT solar panels

[Mathew Howard]

I find it pretty hard to believe that a lot of solar panels that get
replaced just because they're "at the end of their life cycle". I'd bet
that there will be a decent market for used panels that can still do ~50%
of their output.  If nothing else, somebody should start collecting them
all and fill a nice patch of desert with them.

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 1:12 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> OK, hyperbole, the stream of waste has hardly started.
> Not filling up the landfills.
>
> The type of waste?  Copper, Selenium?
> You can buy supplements of those at the drug store.
>
> Arsenic?  Very little in a panel.
> And Arsenic has a hormetic effect.  People are healthier if their drinking
> water contains a little vs none.  Not sure this is a significant issue.
> Like to know more.
>
> And solar panels degrade about 0.5-1% a year.  The article says many
> panels are coming to the end of their 25 year life.  Hey, I will not
> uninstall mine until they are below 50%.  Just cheap that way.
>
> I am surprised California is so flat.  Flatter than Nebraska.  This is due
> to the frequent “sky is falling” issues there.
>
> Glad to see that Diablo is getting a new lease on life.  Nuclear will
> solve everything.
>
>
>
> *From:* Bill Prince
> *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2022 11:26 AM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT solar panels
>
>
>
>
> Here's a PDF of the article in today's Merc.
>
>
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 7/15/2022 9:53 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>
> The LA times has an article about CA landfills filling up with solar
> panels.  It is behind a paywall, so I guess I won’t read it.  Sounds like
> hyperbole to me.  First, the all the solar panels in the state, by volume
> probably don’t match a weeks’ worth of municipal solid waste by volume, so
> that is hardly filling up the landfills.  Second, it hints they are toxic.
> Really?  Glass and aluminum.  Silicon dioxide is just purified glass.  Yes,
> they do have dopants in them.  And there is some solder but probably rohs
> solder.
>
> Is there any truth to this?  Secondly, why?  Are there really that many
> worn out solar panels?  I have never had one wear out to the point that I
> disposed of it.  And I have had solar panels of some sort for close to 50
> years.
>
>
> --
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Re: [AFMUG] Solar panels

[Mathew Howard]

I think they come from solar farms. They must replace whole sections if
they get damaged, or something like that.

A lot of them say they have the labels removed, so they can't be used for
grid-tie, but for off-grid projects, I can't see any obvious reason why
it'd be a bad idea, other than that they're presumably going to have a
shorter lifespan than new ones.

On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 2:49 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> Looking to do a couple of solar projects.
> What is up with all the used panels on Ebay?  Where do they come from?
> I wonder if it is a mistake to buy used panels?
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Why do customers have such short memories?

[Mathew Howard]

They don't remember what they don't want to remember...

On Wed, Jun 8, 2022 at 1:58 PM Nate Burke  wrote:

> "If you want Internet, we have to mount the radio in this single spot on
> your roof, and you HAVE to keep that one tree in your yard from getting
> any taller"
>
> "This tree right here?  I'll keep it so trimmed that it'll probably die,
> I'll cut it down before you're out of the driveway, I really need Internet"
>
> 
>
> "Your internet sucks"
>
> "Your radio has been slowly losing signal all spring, have you kept the
> tree trimmed?  The tree we told you at install would cause a problem in
> a few years if you didn't' trim it."
>
> "What tree? They never mentioned a tree, ever, why did you install it if
> it was going to stop working?"
>
>
> I don't know if that's worse, or the guy that we installed the radio on
> his 70' concrete silo with no ladder because he had a bucket truck, and
> that was the only place it would work.  He insisted it wasn't a problem
> because he owned the bucket truck.  Fast forward a year to his radio
> dead after a lightening strike, where's the bucket truck?  He sold it
> because he didn't need it anymore.
>
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Re: [AFMUG] EPMP PTP Throughput

[Mathew Howard]

On a 1 mile link, there should be more than enough signal to do 256qam, so
you would gain a fair amount from Force 300s (assuming LOS and no noise, of
course)

On Tue, May 24, 2022 at 4:25 PM Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> 5 b/hz on Force 200.  About 100 meg aggregate.  Perfect signal, no noise.
> Force 300 won't be all that much better unless you have a better signal
> anyway.
>
> On Tue, May 24, 2022 at 3:26 PM  wrote:
>
>> Yeah I was thinking you’d not quite get a full 100mb on a 20mhz channel.
>> Might be 80-90.
>>
>> I would plan on 5.6ghz and 40mhz.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Adam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 24, 2022 12:50 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] EPMP PTP Throughput
>>
>>
>>
>> for not critical i use f200 in DFS and 40mhz. Radio speedtests will show
>> that throughput
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 24, 2022 at 11:34 AM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>>
>> You'll be right on the edge. Should work.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 24, 2022 at 8:25 AM Nate Burke  wrote:
>>
>> I need to do a 1 mile PTP hop on the cheap.  Only looking for ~100mb.  I
>> have a set of EPMP Force 200 radios on the shelf.  Can I get 100mb out
>> of a 20mhz channel in ePTP Mode with a pair of Force200s?  I'm pretty
>> sure a set of Force300's could do it, but the boss want's me to use some
>> old stock inventory for this.
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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Re: [AFMUG] EPMP PTP Throughput

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah, I don't know that you'll reliably get 100mb out of a 20mhz channel,
but it should do pretty close in ePTP mode. If you can do a 40mhz channel
it'll do it fine... if it's only a 1 mile link, I'd use 40mhz on a DFS
channel.

On Tue, May 24, 2022 at 11:51 AM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> for not critical i use f200 in DFS and 40mhz. Radio speedtests will show
> that throughput
>
> On Tue, May 24, 2022 at 11:34 AM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>
>> You'll be right on the edge. Should work.
>>
>> On Tue, May 24, 2022 at 8:25 AM Nate Burke  wrote:
>>
>>> I need to do a 1 mile PTP hop on the cheap.  Only looking for ~100mb.  I
>>> have a set of EPMP Force 200 radios on the shelf.  Can I get 100mb out
>>> of a 20mhz channel in ePTP Mode with a pair of Force200s?  I'm pretty
>>> sure a set of Force300's could do it, but the boss want's me to use some
>>> old stock inventory for this.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>>
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Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Would you allow Tor exit node hosting in your AS?

[Mathew Howard]

There may be nothing wrong with doing it ethically or legally, but it
sounds like asking for trouble to me. Seems likely to invite DDOS and get
your IP blocks on who knows what sort of black lists.

On Tue, May 17, 2022 at 2:25 PM TJ Trout  wrote:

> Nothing wrong with hosting it, I wonder if hosting an exit node might
> invite ddos though, can they determine who is hosting it? Dealing with
> subpoenas would be pretty simple as it's an anonymized protocol.
>
> On Tue, May 17, 2022, 11:56 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> Not even considering it.  I stay as far away from the dark web/tor stuff
>> as I can.
>>
>> *From:* Daniel Pautz via AF
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 17, 2022 12:40 PM
>> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>> *Cc:* Daniel Pautz
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Would you allow Tor exit node hosting in your
>> AS?
>>
>>
>> If you do,  get ready for the DOJ / homeland security, FBI and everyone
>> else subpoena’s at some point.   Not work the hassle in my mind as there is
>> so much abuse.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 17, 2022 12:25 PM
>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>> *Cc:* Chuck McCown 
>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Fw: Would you allow Tor exit node hosting in your AS?
>>
>>
>>
>> Hmmm
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Chuck McCown
>>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 17, 2022 12:22 PM
>>
>> *To:* Isaac Grover, Aileron I.T.
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: Would you allow Tor exit node hosting in your AS?
>>
>>
>>
>> No thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Isaac Grover, Aileron I.T.
>>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 17, 2022 12:20 PM
>>
>> *To:* ch...@go-mtc.com
>>
>> *Subject:* Would you allow Tor exit node hosting in your AS?
>>
>>
>>
>> Good afternoon from Wisconsin,
>>
>>
>>
>> Given the political upheaval in many countries right now, my friends and
>> I are looking to spin up some Tor exit nodes so the citizens of these
>> repressed countries can keep in touch with their families abroad and access
>> unbiased independent news sources.
>>
>>
>>
>> Do you allow hosting of Tor exit nodes for TCP ports 80 and 443 in your
>> AS (autonomous system)?  Please let me know, and thank you in advance.  :)
>>
>>
>>
>> *Make your day great,*
>> Isaac Grover, President/vCIO
>> *Aileron I.T. – “ Because #ProactiveIsBetter ”*
>>
>>
>>
>> O: 715-377-0440, F:715-690-1029, W: www.aileronit.com
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti LR-60GHz

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah, they'll pretty much do a full gig anywhere you can get them to link.
Nice radios, but they do have limitations because of rain fade.

On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 8:47 PM Jaime Solorza 
wrote:

> A local wisp has several 5 mile links pushing over 900MBps ...his only
> complaint is rain fade which is rare but does exist...
> He also has 24GHz HDX ptp links
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 5:59 PM TJ Trout  wrote:
>
>> 1-2 miles max depending on rain zone. If you don't care about reliability
>> ~18 miles is possible.
>>
>> https://community.ui.com/stories/contest
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 3:42 PM Jaime Solorza 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> What is the longest ptp 60GHz link using LR 60 you guys have heard of or
>>> done?
>>> Gracias
>>> --
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>>>
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Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti LR-60GHz

[Mathew Howard]

The longest one we have is 7.25 miles... it doesn't take much rain to break
it.

They're reasonably stable up to around 4 miles, but moderately heavy rain
will break anything over about 2 miles. It all depends on what you're
trying to do with it. We have some on 4-6 miles links that are on parallel
paths with 11ghz links, to give us extra capacity and serve as backups in
case of hardware issues, etc., and they work well for that, but I wouldn't
do more than about 2 miles max without a backup.

On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 6:59 PM TJ Trout  wrote:

> 1-2 miles max depending on rain zone. If you don't care about reliability
> ~18 miles is possible.
>
> https://community.ui.com/stories/contest
>
> On Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 3:42 PM Jaime Solorza 
> wrote:
>
>> What is the longest ptp 60GHz link using LR 60 you guys have heard of or
>> done?
>> Gracias
>> --
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Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti LTU radios

[Mathew Howard]

Haven't used them myself, but from what I hear, they're kind of
unimpressive.

On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 3:10 PM Bill Prince  wrote:

> Kinda like tires. They're all black rubber on the outside, with tready
> kinds of stuff around the outside edge.
>
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 3/27/2022 12:39 PM, Jan-GAMs wrote:
>
> How does one tell the difference between a LBE-5AC-LR and a LTU-5AC-LR?
> They look the same.
> On 3/27/22 11:13, Jaime Solorza wrote:
>
> Hello my fine feathered friends
> has anyone tried these LTU radios yet?
> Thanks
> Jaime Solorza
> Wireless Systems Architect
> 915-861-1390
>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Solid 5GHz ptp backhaul solutions

[Mathew Howard]

I don't think we've really had any major problems with the ethernet ports
on the HDs (the ports on the original AF5x are terrible though), most of
ours have been pretty solid. And it does help that both ports are usable
for data on the HD, so you can have a spare cable connected.

On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 3:13 PM Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> I'm 80% happy with AF5XHD.  Radio wise they're great but the ethernet
> ports continue to blow chunks.  Our only solution to the eth ports is a
> short jumper from a NP16.  The NP16 is of course fed with fiber.
>
> On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 3:18 PM Mathew Howard 
> wrote:
>
>> My preferred radios for 5ghz backhauls are the Ubiquiti airfiber 5xHD.
>>
>> I don't have any personal experience to speak of with Cambium PTP stuff,
>> other than ePMP for lower capacity links, but PTP670 is probably the best
>> 5ghz PTP radio out there, but it's pretty pricey. The PTP 550 and Force 425
>> look pretty decent too, but I haven't used either of those or heard a whole
>> lot from people who have.
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 1:53 PM Jaime Solorza 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Two of the local WISPs have asked me what I would recommend in 5GHz to
>>> replace their Ubiquiti and Cambium radios for backhauls...
>>> One of them tried Mimosa and went back to Ubiquiti...
>>> What says the Borg?
>>> --
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>>>
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Re: [AFMUG] Solid 5GHz ptp backhaul solutions

[Mathew Howard]

My preferred radios for 5ghz backhauls are the Ubiquiti airfiber 5xHD.

I don't have any personal experience to speak of with Cambium PTP stuff,
other than ePMP for lower capacity links, but PTP670 is probably the best
5ghz PTP radio out there, but it's pretty pricey. The PTP 550 and Force 425
look pretty decent too, but I haven't used either of those or heard a whole
lot from people who have.

On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 1:53 PM Jaime Solorza 
wrote:

> Two of the local WISPs have asked me what I would recommend in 5GHz to
> replace their Ubiquiti and Cambium radios for backhauls...
> One of them tried Mimosa and went back to Ubiquiti...
> What says the Borg?
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Re: [AFMUG] 60GHz Equipment

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah, as far as I can see, you pretty much need to have some kind of an
agreement with any customer you put a distribution node on to keep that
gear running. Just sticking distribution nodes on any customer's house
where it makes sense sounds like a great way to build a network, in theory,
but in practice it's going to cause yourself a lot of problems if you don't
have something in place to keep them from cancelling service or randomly
unplugging it when they decide to clean the house or go on vacation and
that sort of thing.

On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 11:23 AM Sam Lambie  wrote:

> One thing that I am hearing about the mesh functionality with Siklu and
> CnWave is that it works great. But when one puts gear on a customer premise
> and that becomes a backhaul to other cpe's how do you manage the system
> when the customer at the first "backhaul" decides to quit, power off their
> equipment, or move things cause the gear is on their house? I assume that
> once you tell the customer that they are a backhaul, then do you give them
> free or reduced service in order to keep that gear on? What if they leave
> you and strand 15 other clients behind them? You are screwed and it is a
> fundamentally flawed system in my opinion.
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 8:18 PM Jaime Solorza 
> wrote:
>
>> Mike was in Phoenix last few weeks...will follow up with him..
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 8:15 PM Jaime Solorza 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Not yet...
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 5:12 PM Jason McKemie <
>>> j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:
>>>
 Jaime -

 Have you heard anything on this?

 On Friday, February 11, 2022, Jaime Solorza 
 wrote:

> Let me check with Mike Scott from Webatron...they are deploying Siklu
> ptmp for the Tigua Indian Reservation..
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 11, 2022, 11:44 AM Jason McKemie <
> j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:
>
>> I guess I should have specified ptmp, but it is good to know their
>> equipment works well. Thanks.
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 12:36 PM Jaime Solorza <
>> losguyswirel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I installed about 50 links using the Siklus for Boingo Wireless at
>>> Fort Bliss years ago...I like their mounting hardware much more than
>>> Ubiquiti's or Bridgewave's...never worked on Cambium 60Ghz stuff..
>>> The Siklus worked great..
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 11, 2022, 11:29 AM Jason McKemie <
>>> j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:
>>>
 I'm looking to deploy this for a short-range downtown network from
 a multi-story building, does anyone have any recommended equipment 
 vendors
 in this band? It looks like Cambium, Siklu, and Ignitenet have 
 offerings,
 but I'm not sure what differentiates them.

 Thank you.
 --
 AF mailing list
 AF@af.afmug.com
 http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

>>> --
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>>> --
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>>
>
>
> --
> --
> *Sam Lambie*
> Taosnet Wireless Tech.
> 575-758-7598 Office
> www.Taosnet.com 
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Re: [AFMUG] Did you just call a business?

[Mathew Howard]

If I'm going to start worrying about creepy things Google does, this is way
down the list...

On Sun, Mar 13, 2022 at 2:08 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> "This doesn't bother you..."
>
> Nope.
>
> Also, how they knew it was a business could be done many ways that don't
> involve snooping my information, including their own business listings
> across various services including Maps. They could also be using the class
> of service field in LIDB.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Jan-GAMs" 
> *To: *af@af.afmug.com
> *Sent: *Friday, March 11, 2022 8:41:48 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Did you just call a business?
>
> Google just searched your phone and made a record that you called a
> business, a specific business.  The fact that they knew it was a business
> must imply they know the other phones you called earlier were not
> businesses.  This doesn't bother you that a private enterprise is keeping
> records on who you call without a court order?
>
> I feel this crosses a line into privacy invasion.  Just because you can do
> it, doesn't mean you should.
>
>
> On 3/11/22 18:24, Mike Hammett wrote:
>
> I see it.
>
> It seems like a reasonable step to shore up data quality.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Jan-GAMs"  
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> 
> *Sent: *Friday, March 11, 2022 8:22:41 PM
> *Subject: *[AFMUG] Did you just call a business?
>
> How many of you get that message after dialing a business on your android?
>
> When I see that message I feel violated.  How about you?
>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] 10 miles ptp 10GBps solutions

[Mathew Howard]

It's possible to get 10 miles out of 80ghz (if you don't care about it
going down everytime it rains) but I'm not sure any of the radios out there
are going to be able to do 10Gbps at that distance. The only way to do it
reliably would be a whole stack of 11ghz radios... and the chances of being
able to license that aren't great. I suppose doing a combination of 11ghz
and 18ghz might be realistic, but it still wouldn't be very practical.



On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 1:06 PM Daniel White  wrote:

> At what availability?
>
> If you can't break up the hop... a 80GHz 10Gbps link I think should
> connect at that distance (you would need to do the link calc) but it would
> be super s**ty availability.  You could then backup the link with say 11GHz
> 1Gbps.
>
> Depending on what the application is... that might work great for them
> without running 10 miles of fiber.
>
> Ken Ruppel would be able to work something out - ken.rup...@aviatnet.com
>
> [image: photograph]
> Daniel White
> Co-Founder
> phone: +1 (702) 470-2770
> direct: +1 (702) 470-2766
>
> Jaime Solorza 
> March 3, 2022 at 09:57
> Does any company offer a wireless 10GBps 10 mile solution?
> City folks asking
>
>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] EPMP Options

[Mathew Howard]

Same. At one point we were using the ePMPs for PTP links, so we wouldn't
have to keep another kind of radio in stock, but it's not really worth it.
The Locos are cheap and they work very well for short PTP links.

On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 11:03 PM Darin Steffl 
wrote:

> We do Loco AC for site p2p links. Very cheap and pleasant looking. Cambium
> for most of our ptmp stuff.
>
> On Thu, Feb 24, 2022, 5:49 PM Josh Luthman 
> wrote:
>
>> Gotcha.  We still do Nanostations for that kind of job.  Way cheaper and
>> they're great at PTP.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 5:24 PM Nate Burke  wrote:
>>
>>> I was using the -16's for links from a barn to the house, or linking a
>>> couple shop buildings together, so a couple hundred feet.  The 13 will
>>> still probably work just fine for that.  All feed radios are the -25,
>>> unless the install is under a mile.
>>>
>>> On 2/24/2022 3:30 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:
>>>
>>> Only 25db dishes here.  But we're rural and the amount of -60 or hotter
>>> signals is <5%.  ATPC takes care of the uplink.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 3:02 PM Darin Steffl 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> We only use the 25db dishes as well. We didn't find any need for the
>>>> small gain clients when most our shots are 1-10 miles.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Feb 24, 2022, 1:52 PM Steve Jones 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> we settled on just not using anything but the 25. We ran up on issues
>>>>> where the 16 was used with a small mount that didnt work and then wed have
>>>>> to put new holes in structures for a more robust mount. maintaining extra
>>>>> inventory was a pain, we just watch rx power on close up installs. but it
>>>>> leaves the door open for use of lower power dfs channels if needed
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 12:55 PM Mathew Howard <
>>>>> mhoward...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The 300-19 is a lot bigger, we rarely use them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I generally prefer to just go straight to a 300-25 if it needs more
>>>>>> than a 300-13.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 12:50 PM Nate Burke < 
>>>>>> n...@blastcomm.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My distributor said that EPMP Force 300-16 radios won't be in until
>>>>>>> sometime in September, it's going to make for a rough summer.  How
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> the 300-19's compare?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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Re: [AFMUG] EPMP Options

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah, the 300-13 is good for super close stuff, but those are pretty rare.
I don't really see much use for the 16 or 19 at this point.

On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 1:52 PM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> we settled on just not using anything but the 25. We ran up on issues
> where the 16 was used with a small mount that didnt work and then wed have
> to put new holes in structures for a more robust mount. maintaining extra
> inventory was a pain, we just watch rx power on close up installs. but it
> leaves the door open for use of lower power dfs channels if needed
>
> On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 12:55 PM Mathew Howard 
> wrote:
>
>> The 300-19 is a lot bigger, we rarely use them.
>>
>> I generally prefer to just go straight to a 300-25 if it needs more than
>> a 300-13.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 12:50 PM Nate Burke  wrote:
>>
>>> My distributor said that EPMP Force 300-16 radios won't be in until
>>> sometime in September, it's going to make for a rough summer.  How do
>>> the 300-19's compare?
>>>
>>> --
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>>>
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Re: [AFMUG] EPMP Options

[Mathew Howard]

The 300-19 is a lot bigger, we rarely use them.

I generally prefer to just go straight to a 300-25 if it needs more than a
300-13.

On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 12:50 PM Nate Burke  wrote:

> My distributor said that EPMP Force 300-16 radios won't be in until
> sometime in September, it's going to make for a rough summer.  How do
> the 300-19's compare?
>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT: CBRS

[Mathew Howard]

You just need to have at least one active CPI, correct? I was assuming it
doesn't need to be the same person that originally signed off on it. If you
had to re-register everything everytime a CPI was replaced, that would...
unpleasant.

On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 8:52 AM Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> Just recertify, you have to have someone on staff with it.
>
> On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 9:05 AM  wrote:
>
>> Interesting.  I hadn’t thought about what happens when a certification
>> expires.  That will be a rude shock if it works that way.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 15, 2022 8:35 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: CBRS
>>
>>
>>
>> If a cpi leaves and doesnt keep renewing then one day everybody
>> disconnects. 5 yeats comes quick
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 12:42 PM Mathew Howard 
>> wrote:
>>
>> It kind of makes sense, because a CPI is really just supposed to be
>> verifying that the install was done correctly. If somebody goes and messes
>> with it later on, you can't really hold the CPI responsible for that, so
>> there theoretically shouldn't be any ongoing liability, as long as you did
>> the job right in the first place. There's less incentive for an employee to
>> make sure they did everything right, if they aren't personally responsible
>> for it.
>>
>>
>>
>> A CPI leaving the company shouldn't really have any impact on any
>> existing CBSD's... I would think the CPI could even be a contractor, but I
>> never actually took the CPI course, so I could be wrong...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 11:46 AM Steve Jones 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I was hoping they had changed that dumb rule
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 10:28 AM  wrote:
>>
>> Exactly.  They made a big point of the fact that you are personally
>> responsible for accuracy of the data you put in.  Not sure how a company
>> CPI would fit with that.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Adam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Josh Luthman
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 15, 2022 10:35 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: CBRS
>>
>>
>>
>> I mean I did and I'm horrible at tests.  I did the Google test at
>> Coursera.
>>
>>
>>
>> There simply can't and won't be a company CPI.  If you leave the company
>> then the company needs to recertify.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 10:30 AM Steve Jones 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Were any of us really absorbing all that much when we did CPI? It was
>> new, half of it wasnt even finalized, the course was too long and dry for
>> the small volume of info.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> speaking of CPI, have they created a company CPI yet? ours is my name and
>> if I transition from employee to contractor Im curious how that impacts the
>> registered CBSDs
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 8:49 AM Josh Luthman 
>> wrote:
>>
>> It's like 90% of the class for your CPI, I mean clearly you weren't
>> paying attention :P  The requirement is to report the height and position.
>> Every time.  Every CPE, every AP.
>>
>>
>>
>> If it's operating under your NN license, which is almost
>> certainly expired, you're operating illegally.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you're operating under CBRS it requires you to report every CPE.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 7:55 AM Andy Trimmell 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I’m sitting here wondering how I missed this in CPI training. I believed
>> that what was supposed to be “registered” was a CBSD which had specific
>> height requirements and type which these units aren’t exceeding these
>> specifications.   Yes the product is Baicells.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyone else here that uses Baicells gone down this road too with a
>> similar assumption?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 14, 2022 4:35 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: CBRS
>>
>>
>>
>> With Baicells LTE it's possible to leave the CPE in non-CBRS mode (either
>> by not enabling it, or by just never upgrading the firmware to the CBRS
>> capable version), and they'll connect to a CBRS eNB just fine... 

Re: [AFMUG] Glad to be part of this mailing list

[Mathew Howard]

It's how we weed out the weak and sickly...

On Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 5:31 PM Robert  wrote:

> That is one backasswards standard
>
> On 2/15/22 3:22 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>
> First, you have to be able to tolerate Steve.  If you can tolerate Steve
> you can stay.
>
> *From:* James Howard
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 15, 2022 4:15 PM
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Glad to be part of this mailing list
>
>
> Are they something like the pirate code where it’s not so much of a code
> as a sort of guideline?
>
>
>
> *From:* AF   *On Behalf
> Of *Chuck McCown via AF
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 15, 2022 5:04 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  
> *Cc:* Chuck McCown  
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Glad to be part of this mailing list
>
>
>
> We don’t just let anyone be part of the group either... we have our
> standards you know.
>
>
>
> *From:* Cameron Crum
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 15, 2022 3:57 PM
>
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Glad to be part of this mailing list
>
>
>
> You made it! Welcome!
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 4:30 PM John Scrivner 
> wrote:
>
> I tried to join here a long time ago but had no luck. Hoping I am in the
> mailing list group now. I know there are a lot of good folks on here.
>
> All the best,
>
> John Scrivner
>
> VP - Broadband
>
> Live Oak Bank
>
> 618-237-2387
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
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http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT: CBRS

[Mathew Howard]

It kind of makes sense, because a CPI is really just supposed to be
verifying that the install was done correctly. If somebody goes and messes
with it later on, you can't really hold the CPI responsible for that, so
there theoretically shouldn't be any ongoing liability, as long as you did
the job right in the first place. There's less incentive for an employee to
make sure they did everything right, if they aren't personally responsible
for it.

A CPI leaving the company shouldn't really have any impact on any existing
CBSD's... I would think the CPI could even be a contractor, but I never
actually took the CPI course, so I could be wrong...


On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 11:46 AM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> I was hoping they had changed that dumb rule
>
> On Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 10:28 AM  wrote:
>
>> Exactly.  They made a big point of the fact that you are personally
>> responsible for accuracy of the data you put in.  Not sure how a company
>> CPI would fit with that.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Adam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Josh Luthman
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 15, 2022 10:35 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: CBRS
>>
>>
>>
>> I mean I did and I'm horrible at tests.  I did the Google test at
>> Coursera.
>>
>>
>>
>> There simply can't and won't be a company CPI.  If you leave the company
>> then the company needs to recertify.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 10:30 AM Steve Jones 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Were any of us really absorbing all that much when we did CPI? It was
>> new, half of it wasnt even finalized, the course was too long and dry for
>> the small volume of info.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> speaking of CPI, have they created a company CPI yet? ours is my name and
>> if I transition from employee to contractor Im curious how that impacts the
>> registered CBSDs
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 8:49 AM Josh Luthman 
>> wrote:
>>
>> It's like 90% of the class for your CPI, I mean clearly you weren't
>> paying attention :P  The requirement is to report the height and position.
>> Every time.  Every CPE, every AP.
>>
>>
>>
>> If it's operating under your NN license, which is almost
>> certainly expired, you're operating illegally.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you're operating under CBRS it requires you to report every CPE.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 7:55 AM Andy Trimmell 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I’m sitting here wondering how I missed this in CPI training. I believed
>> that what was supposed to be “registered” was a CBSD which had specific
>> height requirements and type which these units aren’t exceeding these
>> specifications.   Yes the product is Baicells.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyone else here that uses Baicells gone down this road too with a
>> similar assumption?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 14, 2022 4:35 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: CBRS
>>
>>
>>
>> With Baicells LTE it's possible to leave the CPE in non-CBRS mode (either
>> by not enabling it, or by just never upgrading the firmware to the CBRS
>> capable version), and they'll connect to a CBRS eNB just fine... I wouldn't
>> be surprised if that's true for some of the other LTE products too.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 3:23 PM  wrote:
>>
>> Well it occurred to me that I’m thinking of Cambium 450 which forces you
>> to play by the rules by disabling bridging until the CPE is authorized by
>> the SAS.  Maybe Andy has a different product that works differently.
>>
>> ….but yeah all fixed CPE are supposed to be in the SAS.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think mobile devices don’t need to be registered.  Since Andy mentioned
>> eNB I’m guessing maybe he’s got an LTE product, and maybe the vendor allows
>> you to pretend the UE are all mobile?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 14, 2022 4:16 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: CBRS
>>
>>
>>
>> Yeah, if they're still running without being registered, you've got some
>> problems that need fixing...
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 3:09 PM  wrote:
>>
>> If you’re using C

Re: [AFMUG] 60GHz Equipment

[Mathew Howard]

*Siklu... autocorrect did that...

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 8:25 PM Mathew Howard  wrote:

> I think Sikly actually has two different otmo variants, now that I think
> about it, one is Terragraph, and the other isn't, but I'm too lazy to look
> it up at the moment, so I could be wrong.
>
> Last I checked, UBNT didn't have any Terragraph ptmp stuff, they have at
> least one ptp radio that's 802.11ay/Terragraph based, but the only 60ghz
> ptmp they have that I know of is the Wave AP, which uses the AF60LR for
> client radios. It only works on 64-70ghz (as opposed to all the other stuff
> which only works on 58-66ghz),which should give it a bit better range. The
> problem I see the APs beamwidth... it covers 30 degrees, but the bigger
> issue, is that the vertical beamwidth is only something like 3 degrees,
> which is going to make it tough to get decent coverage at short range from
> a very high point.
>
> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022, 5:52 PM Peter Kranz via AF  wrote:
>
>> The Siklu 60Ghz PMP just presents as Layer2, you don’t have to mess
>> around with IPv6 tunnels or anything.
>>
>>
>>
>> UBNT also has some 60Ghz PMP as well now, its supposedly also Terragraph
>> compliant according to the sales document, but I have not tried it, and
>> doubt it.
>>
>>
>>
>> Peter Kranz
>> www.UnwiredLtd.com <http://www.unwiredltd.com/>
>> Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
>> Mobile: 510-207-
>> pkr...@unwiredltd.com
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Jason McKemie
>> *Sent:* Friday, February 11, 2022 10:28 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] 60GHz Equipment
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm looking to deploy this for a short-range downtown network from a
>> multi-story building, does anyone have any recommended equipment vendors in
>> this band? It looks like Cambium, Siklu, and Ignitenet have offerings, but
>> I'm not sure what differentiates them.
>>
>>
>> Thank you.
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] 60GHz Equipment

[Mathew Howard]

I think Sikly actually has two different otmo variants, now that I think
about it, one is Terragraph, and the other isn't, but I'm too lazy to look
it up at the moment, so I could be wrong.

Last I checked, UBNT didn't have any Terragraph ptmp stuff, they have at
least one ptp radio that's 802.11ay/Terragraph based, but the only 60ghz
ptmp they have that I know of is the Wave AP, which uses the AF60LR for
client radios. It only works on 64-70ghz (as opposed to all the other stuff
which only works on 58-66ghz),which should give it a bit better range. The
problem I see the APs beamwidth... it covers 30 degrees, but the bigger
issue, is that the vertical beamwidth is only something like 3 degrees,
which is going to make it tough to get decent coverage at short range from
a very high point.

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022, 5:52 PM Peter Kranz via AF  wrote:

> The Siklu 60Ghz PMP just presents as Layer2, you don’t have to mess around
> with IPv6 tunnels or anything.
>
>
>
> UBNT also has some 60Ghz PMP as well now, its supposedly also Terragraph
> compliant according to the sales document, but I have not tried it, and
> doubt it.
>
>
>
> Peter Kranz
> www.UnwiredLtd.com 
> Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
> Mobile: 510-207-
> pkr...@unwiredltd.com
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Jason McKemie
> *Sent:* Friday, February 11, 2022 10:28 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] 60GHz Equipment
>
>
>
> I'm looking to deploy this for a short-range downtown network from a
> multi-story building, does anyone have any recommended equipment vendors in
> this band? It looks like Cambium, Siklu, and Ignitenet have offerings, but
> I'm not sure what differentiates them.
>
>
> Thank you.
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT Numbers

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah, I typically drive 80-90 miles per day, and never really even think
about it. If I want to go somewhere out of the way after work or something
like that, I may need to think about whether it will be a problem (it never
actually has been, since I normally have 100 miles of range or so to
spare), but otherwise, I just go home and plug it in.

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 4:04 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> Almost never have an issue with charging time.  I plug it in at home and
> at work.  I go for a 100 mile trip, there is a charger at the end.  Takes
> 15 seconds to charge because that is the amount of time it takes to plug it
> in.
>
> The only issue is how long do you wait for a full charge.  Once in a while
> I will do a 100 mile trip, come back to the office then I may want to do it
> again.  If it has only been charging a couple of hours I do have to think
> if I can make it or not.  I think my charger is 5.5 kW.  I get 3.5 miles
> per kWh.  So I charge at 19.25 miles per hour.  Couple of hours I have
> added 40 miles to whatever was in there when I parked it.  Most of the time
> I am OK.  Only one time did I have to wait.  I either forget to plug it in
> or forgot to switch the charger on.  I came out of my office (back then it
> was 49 miles from home) and discovered I had less than a half charge and
> this was an older car that would be a reliable 80-90 miles per charge.  So
> needing at least 40 more miles I had to let it charge a couple of hours,
> but I got paid for them so that was OK.
>
> If it is really low and you have a level2 charger it will be hours.  So
> any planning is in the layover time to wait for the charge.  If I want to
> hit a L3 charger I am up and going in 20 minutes.  And those times will
> come down with technology.  Takes me 20 minutes to hit the head and buy the
> snack when stopping for gas during long trips.
>
> *From:* Brian Webster
> *Sent:* Monday, February 14, 2022 2:53 PM
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Numbers
>
>
> I wouldn’t say it’s a wasted effort on cars. I can warm up to the idea.
> Think of it like you being a contractor building a house and you only
> having one battery pack for your cordless drill. You have to stop
> production and wait until the battery is charged if you don’t have a
> swappable battery. If however you have spare swappable battery packs, well
> then you can keep moving by just swapping the battery and recharge the
> other at the same time.
>
>
>
> If the battery pack power density gets to the point where you just have
> all the cars allocate the space(s) to fit a more universal battery pack or
> packs, then you can just pull up to a chagrining/swap station, do the swap
> thing and be on your way. That concept is one part of the workable solution
> that I could get behind. That would also allow to use off peak grid time to
> build up capacity for the transportation needs at peak times by recharging
> the depleted packs that have been put back in to the recharging ports. Kind
> of like the same freedom we enjoy with the storage of energy using fossil
> fuels. They do something similar with the 20 pound propane bottle exchanges
> at many convenience stores these days. Heck it would even allow you to set
> up energy points where there isn’t grid capacity enough or even available
> at all. Put a good amount of solar panels at the charge/exchange stations
> and I like the idea even better.
>
>
>
> But the huge problem with that is getting all of the car manufacturers to
> agree to do so and standardize on the battery size, form factor…. I could
> see a pickup truck having slots to put more than one battery pack under the
> bed and really give great range.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Brian Webster
>
>
>
> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett
> *Sent:* Monday, February 14, 2022 4:34 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Numbers
>
>
>
> Tesla was planning for their semi trucks to. Not sure if that remains or
> not.
>
>
>
> It seems like a lot of wasted effort for mainstream cars.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
>
> *From: *"Jan-GAMs" 
> *To: *af@af.afmug.com
> *Sent: *Monday, February 14, 2022 3:28:58 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] OT Numbers
>
> It seems pretty obvious that EVs need a swap-able battery so 

Re: [AFMUG] OT Numbers

[Mathew Howard]

/www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> [image: Image removed by sender.]
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[image: Image removed by
> sender.]
>
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> --
>
> *From: *"Josh Luthman" 
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> *Sent: *Monday, February 14, 2022 2:49:51 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] OT Numbers
>
> >plan your trip around chargers
>
>
>
> This is straight awful IMO.  I want to stop when I want to stop, not when
> I need to stop.
>
>
>
> You're absolutely forced to do lunch within a few steps of that charger.
> If you don't mind fast food that's probably a moot point, but when I go to
> a different area I absolutely do not want anything like that or anything
> I'm routinely familiar with.
>
>
>
> Different strokes, different folks.  I looked at a Taycan and while it
> drives amazing, the trunk is worse than the Panamera (seriously wtf) and
> the range issue is a killer for me (being my daily).
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 3:43 PM Mathew Howard 
> wrote:
>
> If you're doing 300-500 miles in a day regularly, an EV probably isn't for
> you at this point. 1-2 times a year, plan your trip around chargers and see
> the sites that happen to be around those chargers, or rent a gas car.
>
>
>
> But even now, I really don't think any of that would be a problem in, say,
> a new Tesla Model S with 400 miles or range... Superchargers are
> everywhere, and they really don't take that long. to go 500 miles in a day,
> you'd probably be talking one 20 minute stop... that's basically lunch.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 2:33 PM Josh Luthman 
> wrote:
>
> Sure, but let's say it's 1-2 times a year.  What do you do if you want to
> make that long trip?
>
>
>
> I'm not saying you can't live with an EV, but doing 300-500 miles in a day
> is certainly not uncommon (especially for me, I have the data to back that
> up).  If you only have an EV and you're limited on routes, you're in a bind.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 3:20 PM Mathew Howard 
> wrote:
>
> The thing is, when you've been driving an EV for awhile, you realize that
> (at least for most people) 200+ miles trips are such a small percentage of
> driving, that never having to stop at a gas station the rest of the time is
> a much bigger benefit.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 2:08 PM Josh Luthman 
> wrote:
>
> Who wants to charge their car every 90 minutes for 10 minutes at a time?
> Time to burn some dust, eat my rubber!
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 2:48 PM Robert Andrews 
> wrote:
>
> If you are doing a 300 mile trip, your stop at a supercharger for a
> Model Y would be about 10 minutes to add another 150 miles, so that's
> not bad when you would be stopping at a gas station for 10 minutes as
> well.  ( I haven't ever gotten out and put even 10 gallons in in less
> that 7 minutes with using the card and all that, you don't do any of
> that at a supercharger )   As far as towing is going, I think you will
> see more and more of the Electric Airstream campers coming down the road
> that have electric assist, to remove the range losses.   There are used
> EV's on the market and the only reason the prices are high is because
> the demand is there, the prices will drop as more used ones hit the
> market, but they will come with reduced range, which is a loss and a
> gain because the rest of the drivetrain will have a lot more use than a
> 60K+ ICE vehicle...   So the only takeaway is that it's still a rapidly
> evolving market, but the ICE builders already see the writing on the
> wall  New teslas come with integrated battery packs which I think is
> going to be a problem in the future, but I am not going to be the one
> dealing with that...
>
> On 2/14/22 11:15, Brian Webster wrote:
> > Living in rural America I am not a fan of the range limitations. For me
> it's not uncommon to have to take a trip 60 to 90 miles in one direction
> and then back in the same day. It's also not uncommon to want to take a
> trip and covers 300 or more miles in that day on the long trip. I do not
> want to be limited to 250 miles before I have to stop for an extended
> period to recharge. Personally that is a serious limit on my personal
> freedom of movement. For instance it's not uncommon for spring or winter
> breaks to drive from upstate NY to Florida in a single 24 hour period. When
> you only have a week for vacation tag team driving to get there with a
> carload of people is still cheaper than try to fly everyone. Also the
> restriction of being able to haul larger loads similarly are a big
> 

Re: [AFMUG] OT Numbers

[Mathew Howard]

d fast food that's probably a moot point, but when I go to
> a different area I absolutely do not want anything like that or anything
> I'm routinely familiar with.
>
>
>
> Different strokes, different folks.  I looked at a Taycan and while it
> drives amazing, the trunk is worse than the Panamera (seriously wtf) and
> the range issue is a killer for me (being my daily).
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 3:43 PM Mathew Howard 
> wrote:
>
> If you're doing 300-500 miles in a day regularly, an EV probably isn't for
> you at this point. 1-2 times a year, plan your trip around chargers and see
> the sites that happen to be around those chargers, or rent a gas car.
>
>
>
> But even now, I really don't think any of that would be a problem in, say,
> a new Tesla Model S with 400 miles or range... Superchargers are
> everywhere, and they really don't take that long. to go 500 miles in a day,
> you'd probably be talking one 20 minute stop... that's basically lunch.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 2:33 PM Josh Luthman 
> wrote:
>
> Sure, but let's say it's 1-2 times a year.  What do you do if you want to
> make that long trip?
>
>
>
> I'm not saying you can't live with an EV, but doing 300-500 miles in a day
> is certainly not uncommon (especially for me, I have the data to back that
> up).  If you only have an EV and you're limited on routes, you're in a bind.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 3:20 PM Mathew Howard 
> wrote:
>
> The thing is, when you've been driving an EV for awhile, you realize that
> (at least for most people) 200+ miles trips are such a small percentage of
> driving, that never having to stop at a gas station the rest of the time is
> a much bigger benefit.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 2:08 PM Josh Luthman 
> wrote:
>
> Who wants to charge their car every 90 minutes for 10 minutes at a time?
> Time to burn some dust, eat my rubber!
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 2:48 PM Robert Andrews 
> wrote:
>
> If you are doing a 300 mile trip, your stop at a supercharger for a
> Model Y would be about 10 minutes to add another 150 miles, so that's
> not bad when you would be stopping at a gas station for 10 minutes as
> well.  ( I haven't ever gotten out and put even 10 gallons in in less
> that 7 minutes with using the card and all that, you don't do any of
> that at a supercharger )   As far as towing is going, I think you will
> see more and more of the Electric Airstream campers coming down the road
> that have electric assist, to remove the range losses.   There are used
> EV's on the market and the only reason the prices are high is because
> the demand is there, the prices will drop as more used ones hit the
> market, but they will come with reduced range, which is a loss and a
> gain because the rest of the drivetrain will have a lot more use than a
> 60K+ ICE vehicle...   So the only takeaway is that it's still a rapidly
> evolving market, but the ICE builders already see the writing on the
> wall  New teslas come with integrated battery packs which I think is
> going to be a problem in the future, but I am not going to be the one
> dealing with that...
>
> On 2/14/22 11:15, Brian Webster wrote:
> > Living in rural America I am not a fan of the range limitations. For me
> it's not uncommon to have to take a trip 60 to 90 miles in one direction
> and then back in the same day. It's also not uncommon to want to take a
> trip and covers 300 or more miles in that day on the long trip. I do not
> want to be limited to 250 miles before I have to stop for an extended
> period to recharge. Personally that is a serious limit on my personal
> freedom of movement. For instance it's not uncommon for spring or winter
> breaks to drive from upstate NY to Florida in a single 24 hour period. When
> you only have a week for vacation tag team driving to get there with a
> carload of people is still cheaper than try to fly everyone. Also the
> restriction of being able to haul larger loads similarly are a big
> limitation. Having a 27 foot camper to load the family up and take a
> vacation is not possible with the current availability of EV's out there.
> >
> > Let's also consider the other elephant in the roof, the actual cost of
> the vehicles. New car prices are outrageous. Personally I like to buy used
> vehicles with higher mileage and typically pay less than 10 grand(usually a
> lot less) and pay cash for them. I haven't had a car payment in over 15
> years and do not want to be forced in to having to do so. With getting
> closer to retirement age every year, I do not want to be forced in to
> incurring debt. For me the goal is to be debt free, not have to fork over
> 30 grand or more ju

Re: [AFMUG] OT: CBRS

[Mathew Howard]

With Baicells LTE it's possible to leave the CPE in non-CBRS mode (either
by not enabling it, or by just never upgrading the firmware to the CBRS
capable version), and they'll connect to a CBRS eNB just fine... I wouldn't
be surprised if that's true for some of the other LTE products too.

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 3:23 PM  wrote:

> Well it occurred to me that I’m thinking of Cambium 450 which forces you
> to play by the rules by disabling bridging until the CPE is authorized by
> the SAS.  Maybe Andy has a different product that works differently.
>
> ….but yeah all fixed CPE are supposed to be in the SAS.
>
>
>
> I think mobile devices don’t need to be registered.  Since Andy mentioned
> eNB I’m guessing maybe he’s got an LTE product, and maybe the vendor allows
> you to pretend the UE are all mobile?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Monday, February 14, 2022 4:16 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: CBRS
>
>
>
> Yeah, if they're still running without being registered, you've got some
> problems that need fixing...
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 3:09 PM  wrote:
>
> If you’re using CBRS then your CPE can’t connect at all if it’s not
> registered with the SAS.  It literally won’t connect.
>
>
>
> I think you may be stuck in another time period.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Andy Trimmell
> *Sent:* Monday, February 14, 2022 4:05 PM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] OT: CBRS
>
>
>
> Do all of you individually register your CPEs?   I just got an email out
> of the blue telling me I need to register each one of the CPEs that are
> connected to my eNBs.  Am I just misunderstanding what he’s saying?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy Trimmell
>
> *Business Manager*
>
> *PDS Connect*
>
> 317-831-3000
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT: CBRS

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah, if they're still running without being registered, you've got some
problems that need fixing...

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 3:09 PM  wrote:

> If you’re using CBRS then your CPE can’t connect at all if it’s not
> registered with the SAS.  It literally won’t connect.
>
>
>
> I think you may be stuck in another time period.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Andy Trimmell
> *Sent:* Monday, February 14, 2022 4:05 PM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] OT: CBRS
>
>
>
> Do all of you individually register your CPEs?   I just got an email out
> of the blue telling me I need to register each one of the CPEs that are
> connected to my eNBs.  Am I just misunderstanding what he’s saying?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy Trimmell
>
> *Business Manager*
>
> *PDS Connect*
>
> 317-831-3000
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT Numbers

[Mathew Howard]

No, certainly not. If you can get an EV for $5K, I wouldn't want it. But I
see that as a short term thing. In ten years, a decent $5K (well, the
equivaltent of $5K) EV probably isn't going to be uncommon.

And I'd trust my 2013 Tesla more than most 2013 gas cars.

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 3:04 PM Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> >But I'd still argue that for 90% of people EVs are actually more
> convenient.
>
> Is cost included in that convenience?  Would you trust a $5,000 gas car or
> EV more?
>
> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 4:01 PM Mathew Howard 
> wrote:
>
>> It's a valid point. Pretty much every town with a population of more than
>> 500 has at least one gas station, so you're not really doing any planning.
>> Most small towns (once you get off the interstates) don't have a public
>> charger, much less fast chargers, and there are still places where there's
>> really no realistic way to go with my Tesla (that said, I have yet to want
>> to go to one of those places, and if I did, I'd just drive my Jeep and get
>> 16 MPG...).
>>
>> But I'd still argue that for 90% of people EVs are actually more
>> convenient.
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 2:52 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>>
>>> You plan your trips around gas stations, why not chargers?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
>>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
>>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
>>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
>>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>>> --
>>> *From: *"Josh Luthman" 
>>> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
>>> *Sent: *Monday, February 14, 2022 2:49:51 PM
>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] OT Numbers
>>>
>>> >plan your trip around chargers
>>>
>>> This is straight awful IMO.  I want to stop when I want to stop, not
>>> when I need to stop.
>>>
>>> You're absolutely forced to do lunch within a few steps of that
>>> charger.  If you don't mind fast food that's probably a moot point, but
>>> when I go to a different area I absolutely do not want anything like that
>>> or anything I'm routinely familiar with.
>>>
>>> Different strokes, different folks.  I looked at a Taycan and while it
>>> drives amazing, the trunk is worse than the Panamera (seriously wtf) and
>>> the range issue is a killer for me (being my daily).
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 3:43 PM Mathew Howard 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If you're doing 300-500 miles in a day regularly, an EV probably isn't
>>>> for you at this point. 1-2 times a year, plan your trip around chargers and
>>>> see the sites that happen to be around those chargers, or rent a gas car.
>>>>
>>>> But even now, I really don't think any of that would be a problem in,
>>>> say, a new Tesla Model S with 400 miles or range... Superchargers are
>>>> everywhere, and they really don't take that long. to go 500 miles in a day,
>>>> you'd probably be talking one 20 minute stop... that's basically lunch.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 2:33 PM Josh Luthman <
>>>> j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Sure, but let's say it's 1-2 times a year.  What do you do if you want
>>>>> to make that long trip?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not saying you can't live with an EV, but doing 300-500 miles in a
>>>>> day is certainly not uncommon (especially for me, I have the data to back
>>>>> that up).  If you only have an EV and you're limited on routes, you're in 
>>>>> a
>>>>> bind.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 3:20 PM Mathew Howard 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The thing is, when you've been driving an EV for awhile, you realize
>>>>>> that (at lea

Re: [AFMUG] OT Numbers

[Mathew Howard]

It's a valid point. Pretty much every town with a population of more than
500 has at least one gas station, so you're not really doing any planning.
Most small towns (once you get off the interstates) don't have a public
charger, much less fast chargers, and there are still places where there's
really no realistic way to go with my Tesla (that said, I have yet to want
to go to one of those places, and if I did, I'd just drive my Jeep and get
16 MPG...).

But I'd still argue that for 90% of people EVs are actually more
convenient.

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 2:52 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> You plan your trips around gas stations, why not chargers?
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> --
> *From: *"Josh Luthman" 
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> *Sent: *Monday, February 14, 2022 2:49:51 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] OT Numbers
>
> >plan your trip around chargers
>
> This is straight awful IMO.  I want to stop when I want to stop, not when
> I need to stop.
>
> You're absolutely forced to do lunch within a few steps of that charger.
> If you don't mind fast food that's probably a moot point, but when I go to
> a different area I absolutely do not want anything like that or anything
> I'm routinely familiar with.
>
> Different strokes, different folks.  I looked at a Taycan and while it
> drives amazing, the trunk is worse than the Panamera (seriously wtf) and
> the range issue is a killer for me (being my daily).
>
> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 3:43 PM Mathew Howard 
> wrote:
>
>> If you're doing 300-500 miles in a day regularly, an EV probably isn't
>> for you at this point. 1-2 times a year, plan your trip around chargers and
>> see the sites that happen to be around those chargers, or rent a gas car.
>>
>> But even now, I really don't think any of that would be a problem in,
>> say, a new Tesla Model S with 400 miles or range... Superchargers are
>> everywhere, and they really don't take that long. to go 500 miles in a day,
>> you'd probably be talking one 20 minute stop... that's basically lunch.
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 2:33 PM Josh Luthman 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Sure, but let's say it's 1-2 times a year.  What do you do if you want
>>> to make that long trip?
>>>
>>> I'm not saying you can't live with an EV, but doing 300-500 miles in a
>>> day is certainly not uncommon (especially for me, I have the data to back
>>> that up).  If you only have an EV and you're limited on routes, you're in a
>>> bind.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 3:20 PM Mathew Howard 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The thing is, when you've been driving an EV for awhile, you realize
>>>> that (at least for most people) 200+ miles trips are such a small
>>>> percentage of driving, that never having to stop at a gas station the rest
>>>> of the time is a much bigger benefit.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 2:08 PM Josh Luthman <
>>>> j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Who wants to charge their car every 90 minutes for 10 minutes at a
>>>>> time?  Time to burn some dust, eat my rubber!
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 2:48 PM Robert Andrews 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> If you are doing a 300 mile trip, your stop at a supercharger for a
>>>>>> Model Y would be about 10 minutes to add another 150 miles, so that's
>>>>>> not bad when you would be stopping at a gas station for 10 minutes as
>>>>>> well.  ( I haven't ever gotten out and put even 10 gallons in in less
>>>>>> that 7 minutes with using the card and all that, you don't do any of
>>>>>> that at a supercharger )   As far as towing is going, I think you
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> see more and more of the Electric Airstream campers coming d

Re: [AFMUG] OT Numbers

[Mathew Howard]

If you're doing 300-500 miles in a day regularly, an EV probably isn't for
you at this point. 1-2 times a year, plan your trip around chargers and see
the sites that happen to be around those chargers, or rent a gas car.

But even now, I really don't think any of that would be a problem in, say,
a new Tesla Model S with 400 miles or range... Superchargers are
everywhere, and they really don't take that long. to go 500 miles in a day,
you'd probably be talking one 20 minute stop... that's basically lunch.

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 2:33 PM Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> Sure, but let's say it's 1-2 times a year.  What do you do if you want to
> make that long trip?
>
> I'm not saying you can't live with an EV, but doing 300-500 miles in a day
> is certainly not uncommon (especially for me, I have the data to back that
> up).  If you only have an EV and you're limited on routes, you're in a bind.
>
> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 3:20 PM Mathew Howard 
> wrote:
>
>> The thing is, when you've been driving an EV for awhile, you realize that
>> (at least for most people) 200+ miles trips are such a small percentage of
>> driving, that never having to stop at a gas station the rest of the time is
>> a much bigger benefit.
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 2:08 PM Josh Luthman 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Who wants to charge their car every 90 minutes for 10 minutes at a
>>> time?  Time to burn some dust, eat my rubber!
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 2:48 PM Robert Andrews 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If you are doing a 300 mile trip, your stop at a supercharger for a
>>>> Model Y would be about 10 minutes to add another 150 miles, so that's
>>>> not bad when you would be stopping at a gas station for 10 minutes as
>>>> well.  ( I haven't ever gotten out and put even 10 gallons in in less
>>>> that 7 minutes with using the card and all that, you don't do any of
>>>> that at a supercharger )   As far as towing is going, I think you will
>>>> see more and more of the Electric Airstream campers coming down the
>>>> road
>>>> that have electric assist, to remove the range losses.   There are used
>>>> EV's on the market and the only reason the prices are high is because
>>>> the demand is there, the prices will drop as more used ones hit the
>>>> market, but they will come with reduced range, which is a loss and a
>>>> gain because the rest of the drivetrain will have a lot more use than a
>>>> 60K+ ICE vehicle...   So the only takeaway is that it's still a rapidly
>>>> evolving market, but the ICE builders already see the writing on the
>>>> wall  New teslas come with integrated battery packs which I think
>>>> is
>>>> going to be a problem in the future, but I am not going to be the one
>>>> dealing with that...
>>>>
>>>> On 2/14/22 11:15, Brian Webster wrote:
>>>> > Living in rural America I am not a fan of the range limitations. For
>>>> me it's not uncommon to have to take a trip 60 to 90 miles in one direction
>>>> and then back in the same day. It's also not uncommon to want to take a
>>>> trip and covers 300 or more miles in that day on the long trip. I do not
>>>> want to be limited to 250 miles before I have to stop for an extended
>>>> period to recharge. Personally that is a serious limit on my personal
>>>> freedom of movement. For instance it's not uncommon for spring or winter
>>>> breaks to drive from upstate NY to Florida in a single 24 hour period. When
>>>> you only have a week for vacation tag team driving to get there with a
>>>> carload of people is still cheaper than try to fly everyone. Also the
>>>> restriction of being able to haul larger loads similarly are a big
>>>> limitation. Having a 27 foot camper to load the family up and take a
>>>> vacation is not possible with the current availability of EV's out there.
>>>> >
>>>> > Let's also consider the other elephant in the roof, the actual cost
>>>> of the vehicles. New car prices are outrageous. Personally I like to buy
>>>> used vehicles with higher mileage and typically pay less than 10
>>>> grand(usually a lot less) and pay cash for them. I haven't had a car
>>>> payment in over 15 years and do not want to be forced in to having to do
>>>> so. With getting closer to retirement age every year, I do not want to be
>>>> forced in to incurring debt. For me the goal is to be debt free, not have
>>>> to fork over 30 gra

Re: [AFMUG] OT Numbers

[Mathew Howard]

They also overestimate how important it is to be able to drive long
distances without stopping to re-charge. I've come to the conclusion that
with superchargers and 350-400 miles of range (which a new Tesla can do),
pretty much all of those concerns are a non-issue.

I admit there are some occasional inconveniences with only having 200 miles
of range, but compared to the advantages of an EV, it's not even close, and
I have no intention of ever going back to a gas car for my daily driver.

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 2:25 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> AGREED!
>
>
> People vastly overestimate how often they drive long distances.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> --
> *From: *"Mathew Howard" 
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> *Sent: *Monday, February 14, 2022 2:19:19 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] OT Numbers
>
> The thing is, when you've been driving an EV for awhile, you realize that
> (at least for most people) 200+ miles trips are such a small percentage of
> driving, that never having to stop at a gas station the rest of the time is
> a much bigger benefit.
>
> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 2:08 PM Josh Luthman 
> wrote:
>
>> Who wants to charge their car every 90 minutes for 10 minutes at a time?
>> Time to burn some dust, eat my rubber!
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 2:48 PM Robert Andrews 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> If you are doing a 300 mile trip, your stop at a supercharger for a
>>> Model Y would be about 10 minutes to add another 150 miles, so that's
>>> not bad when you would be stopping at a gas station for 10 minutes as
>>> well.  ( I haven't ever gotten out and put even 10 gallons in in less
>>> that 7 minutes with using the card and all that, you don't do any of
>>> that at a supercharger )   As far as towing is going, I think you will
>>> see more and more of the Electric Airstream campers coming down the road
>>> that have electric assist, to remove the range losses.   There are used
>>> EV's on the market and the only reason the prices are high is because
>>> the demand is there, the prices will drop as more used ones hit the
>>> market, but they will come with reduced range, which is a loss and a
>>> gain because the rest of the drivetrain will have a lot more use than a
>>> 60K+ ICE vehicle...   So the only takeaway is that it's still a rapidly
>>> evolving market, but the ICE builders already see the writing on the
>>> wall  New teslas come with integrated battery packs which I think is
>>> going to be a problem in the future, but I am not going to be the one
>>> dealing with that...
>>>
>>> On 2/14/22 11:15, Brian Webster wrote:
>>> > Living in rural America I am not a fan of the range limitations. For
>>> me it's not uncommon to have to take a trip 60 to 90 miles in one direction
>>> and then back in the same day. It's also not uncommon to want to take a
>>> trip and covers 300 or more miles in that day on the long trip. I do not
>>> want to be limited to 250 miles before I have to stop for an extended
>>> period to recharge. Personally that is a serious limit on my personal
>>> freedom of movement. For instance it's not uncommon for spring or winter
>>> breaks to drive from upstate NY to Florida in a single 24 hour period. When
>>> you only have a week for vacation tag team driving to get there with a
>>> carload of people is still cheaper than try to fly everyone. Also the
>>> restriction of being able to haul larger loads similarly are a big
>>> limitation. Having a 27 foot camper to load the family up and take a
>>> vacation is not possible with the current availability of EV's out there.
>>> >
>>> > Let's also consider the other elephant in the roof, the actual cost of
>>> the vehicles. New car prices are outrageous. Personally I like to buy used
>>> vehicles with higher mi

Re: [AFMUG] OT Numbers

[Mathew Howard]

The thing is, when you've been driving an EV for awhile, you realize that
(at least for most people) 200+ miles trips are such a small percentage of
driving, that never having to stop at a gas station the rest of the time is
a much bigger benefit.

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 2:08 PM Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> Who wants to charge their car every 90 minutes for 10 minutes at a time?
> Time to burn some dust, eat my rubber!
>
> On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 2:48 PM Robert Andrews 
> wrote:
>
>> If you are doing a 300 mile trip, your stop at a supercharger for a
>> Model Y would be about 10 minutes to add another 150 miles, so that's
>> not bad when you would be stopping at a gas station for 10 minutes as
>> well.  ( I haven't ever gotten out and put even 10 gallons in in less
>> that 7 minutes with using the card and all that, you don't do any of
>> that at a supercharger )   As far as towing is going, I think you will
>> see more and more of the Electric Airstream campers coming down the road
>> that have electric assist, to remove the range losses.   There are used
>> EV's on the market and the only reason the prices are high is because
>> the demand is there, the prices will drop as more used ones hit the
>> market, but they will come with reduced range, which is a loss and a
>> gain because the rest of the drivetrain will have a lot more use than a
>> 60K+ ICE vehicle...   So the only takeaway is that it's still a rapidly
>> evolving market, but the ICE builders already see the writing on the
>> wall  New teslas come with integrated battery packs which I think is
>> going to be a problem in the future, but I am not going to be the one
>> dealing with that...
>>
>> On 2/14/22 11:15, Brian Webster wrote:
>> > Living in rural America I am not a fan of the range limitations. For me
>> it's not uncommon to have to take a trip 60 to 90 miles in one direction
>> and then back in the same day. It's also not uncommon to want to take a
>> trip and covers 300 or more miles in that day on the long trip. I do not
>> want to be limited to 250 miles before I have to stop for an extended
>> period to recharge. Personally that is a serious limit on my personal
>> freedom of movement. For instance it's not uncommon for spring or winter
>> breaks to drive from upstate NY to Florida in a single 24 hour period. When
>> you only have a week for vacation tag team driving to get there with a
>> carload of people is still cheaper than try to fly everyone. Also the
>> restriction of being able to haul larger loads similarly are a big
>> limitation. Having a 27 foot camper to load the family up and take a
>> vacation is not possible with the current availability of EV's out there.
>> >
>> > Let's also consider the other elephant in the roof, the actual cost of
>> the vehicles. New car prices are outrageous. Personally I like to buy used
>> vehicles with higher mileage and typically pay less than 10 grand(usually a
>> lot less) and pay cash for them. I haven't had a car payment in over 15
>> years and do not want to be forced in to having to do so. With getting
>> closer to retirement age every year, I do not want to be forced in to
>> incurring debt. For me the goal is to be debt free, not have to fork over
>> 30 grand or more just to be able to continue to transport myself around.
>> People making decisions like no more gas engines for lawn mowers and such,
>> they tend to live in some sort of state of constant debt, if they are in
>> government they have no concept of not being in debt. Most will think I am
>> crazy for thinking this way because society just wants to accept that debt
>> is a necessary way of life. That debt for purchasing and converting to EV's
>> and getting away from fossil fuels is in my mind not being fairly
>> considered in the process.
>> >
>> > Thank you,
>> > Brian Webster
>> >
>> >
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Robert Andrews
>> > Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 1:49 PM
>> > To: af@af.afmug.com
>> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Numbers
>> >
>> > There are also a bunch of real life tests published on Youtube.   Seems
>> > like everyone in the cold wanted to either brag or complain...
>> >
>> > On 2/14/22 09:56, li...@gogebicrange.net wrote:
>> >> Since a lot of you guys seem to have first hand experience with the
>> EV’s
>> >> Ill ask. How do they do on range in cold environments? We have often
>> >> wondered how they heat the inside of the vehicle in -10F and how it
>> >> affects the range of the vehicle. Those temps are common for us in
>> >> January and February.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >>
>> >> Brandon
>> >>
>> >> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince
>> >> *Sent:* Monday, February 14, 2022 11:15 AM
>> >> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>> >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Numbers
>> >>
>> >> It's not thye electric motors that are at fault. Once the battery tech
>> >> gets sorted out, there will be no good reason to use dino-fuel.
>> >>
>> >> bp
>> >>
>> >> 
>> >>
>> 

Re: [AFMUG] OT Numbers

[Mathew Howard]

That's roughly my experience as well. I can do 200 miles on a charge in the
summer, no problem (my car claims 240 miles at 100% charge), but I wouldn't
be comfortable doing much over 100 miles at 0 degrees.

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 12:33 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
wrote:

> They either have a heat pump or resistive heating.  Heat pumps are much
> more efficient.  On a Nissan Leaf you have to select a trim option that has
> a hybrid heater system.  I have had both, both work just fine.  He warm up
> the car a bit faster than an ICE does.  Resistive heats noticeably faster.
>
> Some cars have battery heaters.  Leaf does not.  That means in super cold,
> like 0 degrees outside, the battery range is about 60% of that during a hot
> summer day.  My garage is not heated, that would make a difference.  But
> that’s not all, you get a double whammy with cold because cold batts will
> not fully charge either.  And it is a serious difference.  In the summer I
> will not balk at a 120 mile RT drive.  But super cold will cut that in
> half.  That is not a hard limit, just the limit of comfort.  It will go
> farther.
>
> And you can always drop to 20-30 mph in any electric and double the
> remaining range.
>
> *From:* li...@gogebicrange.net
> *Sent:* Monday, February 14, 2022 10:56 AM
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Numbers
>
>
> Since a lot of you guys seem to have first hand experience with the EV’s
> Ill ask. How do they do on range in cold environments? We have often
> wondered how they heat the inside of the vehicle in -10F and how it affects
> the range of the vehicle. Those temps are common for us in January and
> February.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince
> *Sent:* Monday, February 14, 2022 11:15 AM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Numbers
>
>
>
> It's not thye electric motors that are at fault. Once the battery tech
> gets sorted out, there will be no good reason to use dino-fuel.
>
>
>
> bp
>
> 
>
> On 2/14/2022 9:11 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
>
> Sure, but efficiency isn't everything. Fortunately, EVs are also better at
> torque than diesel and gasoline.
>
>
>
> Where they don't shine is range when actually working.
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
>
> *From: *"Bill Prince" mailto:part15...@gmail.com
> *To: *af@af.afmug.com
> *Sent: *Monday, February 14, 2022 11:06:28 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] OT Numbers
>
> It's approximately 33 KWH of electricity is equivalent to 1 gallon of
> gasoline (probably less for diesel), so EVs with 60-80 KWH batteries are
> running a couple hundred miles (or more) on the rough equivalent of < 3
> gallons of gas.
>
>
>
> bp
>
> 
>
> On 2/14/2022 8:20 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
>
> The funny thing is that while diesel has superior performance to gasoline
> in many ways, EVs have superior performance to diesel in many ways.
>
> Kinda ironic...
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
>
> *From: *"Bill Prince" mailto:part15...@gmail.com
> *To: *af@af.afmug.com
> *Sent: *Monday, February 14, 2022 9:46:36 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] OT Numbers
>
> It's called "rolling coal", and it is all the rage for people who think
> EVs are the devil's spawn.
>
> bp
>
> 
>
> On 2/14/2022 6:38 AM, Jan-GAMs wrote:
>
> In the past year I've observed that agressive driving seems to be the norm
> now.  More assholes, especially pickups using farm diesel
> (black-foul-smelling-smoke).  I been thinking of investing in a stash of
> bumper stickers to stick on their trucks that says "shoot me please".
>
> On 2/13/22 12:28, Steve Jones wrote:
>
> Its possible that with the lower threshold more folks were able to be
> arrested before they couldgo fora croaker 

Re: [AFMUG] Conflict

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah, it's two houses owned by the same guy, I don't see that as a real
problem. That's entirely different than if it was just two neighbors
sharing a connection, but it still depends on the specific circumstances.

On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 9:27 AM Bill Prince  wrote:

> I think that makes a difference; especially if the rental includes
> utilities. If the rental was a room in the back of the main house,
> providing internet service would probably be expected. So this is not a
> great leap.
>
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 2/11/2022 6:17 PM, Aeron Wireless wrote:
>
> Little back story. My company was Aeron Wireless. I have a GREAT
> relationship with the FISP. The FISP had always been my backbone provider.
> I've sold my company and came on as an employee to the WISP in question.
>
> I've made it known that I am unhappy about him selling these PTPs. Yes
> he's done this before. This was the first one since I've been onboard.
>
> House A and House B are owned by the same people. House B is a rental, I
> guess landlord wants to include internet in the rent and not pay any more
> for it. To me it doesn't make any difference. One residence, one account.
> Two residences, two accounts. Does this change anything for anyone?
>
>
>
> sent from my android phone
>
> On Fri, Feb 11, 2022, 9:09 PM Bill Prince  wrote:
>
>> Yeah. Someone like that I would tell them to DIY. No ethical company
>> would knowingly do that.
>>
>> --
>> bp
>> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 5:56 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Technically you are enabling theft of service.  You or your company may
>>> be exposed.  At the least you guys will take a hit to your reputation if
>>> this comes to light.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Feb 11, 2022, at 6:23 PM, Aeron Wireless 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> Thanks for the clarification. As an employee, I've made my concerns
>>> known. I wondering if I should put it in writing.
>>>
>>> sent from my android phone
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 11, 2022, 8:21 PM Jason McKemie <
>>> j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:
>>>
 *If I were your boss.

 On Friday, February 11, 2022, Jason McKemie <
 j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:

> I wouldn't take this job.
>
> On Friday, February 11, 2022, Aeron Wireless 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Today boss sends us out into a FISP's territory to set up a wireless
>> PTP between two neighboring houses. House A pays for fiber service. 
>> House B
>> has fiber installed but are now getting service over the wireless PTP.
>>
>> I can't help but to think how the boss would react if this happened
>> in our territory. What's everyone's take on this?
>>
>> sent from my android phone
>>
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>>> --
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>>>
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>>>
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] 60GHz Equipment

[Mathew Howard]

No, it doesn't. I'm not sure if all of it works the same way or not, but
the Cambium stuff has a layer 2 option that creates tunnels through it, but
it's all done over IPv6.

On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 7:22 PM Jason McKemie <
j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:

> Does Terragraph not natively support L2 bridging?
>
> On Friday, February 11, 2022, Sean Heskett  wrote:
>
>> Cambium is certified terragraph mesh which allows you to use clients as
>> distribution points for other clients.
>>
>> Big advantage since you don’t have to secure tons of “tower” sites.
>>
>> -Sean
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 11:28 AM Jason McKemie <
>> j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm looking to deploy this for a short-range downtown network from a
>>> multi-story building, does anyone have any recommended equipment vendors in
>>> this band? It looks like Cambium, Siklu, and Ignitenet have offerings, but
>>> I'm not sure what differentiates them.
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>> --
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>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>> --
>> Sean Heskett
>>
>> ZIRKEL
>> Internet • WiFi • Phone • TV
>> 970-871-8500 x100 - Office
>>
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Re: [AFMUG] 60GHz Equipment

[Mathew Howard]

Mikrotik 60ghz is by far the simplest to work with. I think all of the
other PtMP offerings, aside from the older Ignitenet stuff, are Terragraph
based (Cambium, Siklu and IgniteNet), which certainly has some advantages,
but it's also a lot more complicated to get running.

We have quite a bit of Mikrotik 60ghz PtMP running, and it mostly works
pretty well. The biggest issue with it is that you're limited to 8 clients
per AP, so it isn't going to scale as well as the newer Terragraph stuff,
but it's super cheap and simple to work with. The best option kind of
depends on what you're going to do with it.

On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 2:02 PM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> We put up some mikrotik to test range limits, only ever ran 2 so never was
> really ptmp. Interface was clunky,as is mikrotik, but i bet with the
> customization option in them it could be a contender. I cant really speak
> of performance, we were testing fring range and it performed as expected
> per the rf maths
>
> On Fri, Feb 11, 2022, 12:50 PM Jaime Solorza 
> wrote:
>
>> Let me check with Mike Scott from Webatron...they are deploying Siklu
>> ptmp for the Tigua Indian Reservation..
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 11, 2022, 11:44 AM Jason McKemie <
>> j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I guess I should have specified ptmp, but it is good to know their
>>> equipment works well. Thanks.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 12:36 PM Jaime Solorza <
>>> losguyswirel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 I installed about 50 links using the Siklus for Boingo Wireless at Fort
 Bliss years ago...I like their mounting hardware much more than Ubiquiti's
 or Bridgewave's...never worked on Cambium 60Ghz stuff..
 The Siklus worked great..

 On Fri, Feb 11, 2022, 11:29 AM Jason McKemie <
 j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:

> I'm looking to deploy this for a short-range downtown network from a
> multi-story building, does anyone have any recommended equipment vendors 
> in
> this band? It looks like Cambium, Siklu, and Ignitenet have offerings, but
> I'm not sure what differentiates them.
>
> Thank you.
> --
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>
 --
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>>>
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Re: [AFMUG] Horizon 5G millimeter repeater

[Mathew Howard]

I'm pretty sure UltraWideband is what they call mmwave.

On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 12:15 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> I would guess they are referring to the C band freqs they added as part of
> 5G.
>
> *From:* Nate Burke
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 8, 2022 10:56 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Horizon 5G millimeter repeater
>
> I haven't used it, but here in Chicago, Verizon has billboards advertising
> their UltraWideband (so is that the mm wave?) service that's now active
> along the lake front between 2 neighborhoods.
>
> So they advertize how fast it is, that doesn't change your data cap?  So
> you can just use all your data faster?
>
> On 2/8/2022 11:27 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>
> I remain unconvinced that you can use the mm waves on a handheld device
> unless you are looking at the tower 100’ away.  They don’t penetrate
> walls.  I am guessing they are really only useful for PTP and probably for
> business customers.
>
> *From:* Jaime Solorza
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 8, 2022 9:44 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Horizon 5G millimeter repeater
>
> SureCall has a new booster for Verizon's millimeter 5G service...watch the
> videos...pretty impressive..
> Says you need an FCC license to install them...wonder what kind of
> licenses are required?
> Buehler,  Buehler,  anyone?
> --
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>
>
>
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] Dual DIA router

[Mathew Howard]

How recently have you looked at v7? I've had 7.1.1 running on a few routers
for a couple of weeks, and so far, I haven't seen any problems with it.

On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 10:03 AM Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> Simply based on the complaints and well done bug reports (ie excluding v7
> is junk cuz I say so) I wouldn't do v7 in production.  I won't do it at
> home!  I just don't have the time to screw with it.
>
> I would imagine it would OSPF nicely to the other routers, be it Cisco or
> a v6 Mikrotik, but the problem I have is the v7 router would have problems
> of its own.
>
> On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 10:37 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies <
> m...@mailmt.com> wrote:
>
>> Josh,
>>
>> I was wondering if anyone has tried v7 in mixed production with v6
>> units.  They are coming out with some nice new HW, but it runs only v7.  I
>> guess that is a good thing being they are not wasting their time putting
>> old SW on the new HW.  I much rather them concentrate on the new stuff.
>> But, is the new stuff ready for production?  Also, does it play well (OSPF)
>> with the old stuff?
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com 
>>
>> Myakka Communications
>> www.Myakka.com
>>
>> --
>>
>> Wednesday, January 19, 2022, 10:09:10 AM, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> I'm using Mikrotik.  Get a "cheap" 1036 right now.  When you outgrow it,
>> replace it with the bigger CCR (1072 is bigger but you need to avoid NAT
>> and such for crashes at high throughput).  The newer CCR are bigger still
>> and even cheaper, but v7 only and hence are super buggy.
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 5:19 PM TJ Trout  wrote:
>>
>> I think you mean transport, transit is internet access/dia/full routes,
>> so you have 3 transit providers feeding a switch and transport back to your
>> hut =) Mikrotik is a decent router but stay away from the 1072, the 1036 is
>> solid but since it's using CPU instead of asic it cannot withstand many
>> ddos attacks
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 2:03 PM Mark - Myakka Technologies <
>> m...@mailmt.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dmmoffett,
>>
>> All three of my BGP routers are RouterOS.  Two are old x86 from baltic
>> with the 4 port 10 gig card. One is a CCR1072.  At peak I'm pushing about
>> 12G total across all three.  Really haven't push the CCR to the limits yet.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com 
>>
>> Myakka Communications
>> www.Myakka.com
>>
>> --
>>
>> Tuesday, January 18, 2022, 2:33:02 PM, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> ….and I still love Mikrotik’s, but the CCR1072 crash/reboot issue was a
>> big turnoff.
>>
>> *From: *dmmoff...@gmail.com 
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 18, 2022 2:32 PM
>> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
>> *Subject:* RE: [AFMUG] Dual DIA router
>>
>> The only thing I’d be careful of is Juniper changed pricing recently, so
>> don’t trust any price you hear that isn’t from 2022.
>>
>> I’m really loving Arista these days.  An Arista L3 switch would probably
>> do everything you’d want.  They do have routers too of course, but switches
>> are cheap enough to keep a spare.  Arista’s command syntax is identical to
>> Cisco, so there’s that too.
>>
>> -Adam
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *TJ Trout
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 18, 2022 2:27 PM
>> *To:* Chuck McCown 
>> *Cc:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Dual DIA router
>>
>> Yeah just get a juniper, even if you go used, i think it's a front loaded
>> investment with a great roi in headaches saved
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022, 11:25 AM Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>
>> We are actually routerless at the moment, buying access from another
>> company that has some Cisco big iron there.
>> It was a great way to start out from scratch but the economics are such
>> that it will pay us to do our own router and own DIA now.
>>
>> *From:* TJ Trout
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 18, 2022 12:23 PM
>> *To:* Chuck McCown
>> *Cc:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: Dual DIA router
>>
>> What's your current router? I'm sure it can do many connections using a
>> switch and vlans. What is the specs you want and budget? Baltic vengence 3
>> is a good option, or mx204 is the best option probably but 25k+
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022, 11:13 AM Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>
>> To do dual DIA we are going to have to do a new router.  Or used router.
>> Last time down this road we were kicking tires on Juniper.  I don’t have a
>> ton of customers on my new system yet but I can foresee 2000 in the next
>> 2-3 years.
>> What would be a good value there?  I really don’t want a $25K router
>> right now.
>>
>> *From:* Chuck McCown via AF
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 18, 2022 11:55 AM
>> *To:* TJ Trout
>> *Cc:* Chuck McCown ; AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] DIA Pricing
>>
>> Not sure I want to have two providers at the moment...  The problem is
>> having the two backhaul circuits.  Maybe I could vlan them.
>> No harm in quoting HE.  Anyone got a sales 

Re: [AFMUG] Chain 0, Chain 1

[Mathew Howard]

Depends what they're plugged in to...

I think that's what they line up with on Ubiquiti antennas, but they could
theoretically be either. If I remember correctly, chain 0 is H and 1 is V
on all of the Ubiquiti radios with integrated antennas (powerbeams,
nanostations, etc.), but it should make any difference if they're
mismatched.

On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 1:42 PM Jaime Solorza 
wrote:

> On Ubiquiti AC Gen2 Rockets...aren't chain 0 horizontal and chain 1
> vertical polarity?
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Re: [AFMUG] Not going to qork

[Mathew Howard]

I imagine mobile mm wave has some use in a few, very limited, situations.
It's probably realistic in stadiums and that kind of thing, where you have
thousands of people in a relatively small, open area.

On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 4:18 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> Yes, and that is about the only thing 5G will actually work for.  Mobile
> mm wave is a joke.
>
> *From:* Jaime Solorza
> *Sent:* Monday, December 27, 2021 2:47 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Not going to qork
>
> Epiphany!!! Set up fixed high speed links to business with outdoor
> antennas..forget mobile..
>
> On Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 11:26 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> It did result in greater cell tower density being fed by fiber.  They
>> told city regulators it was needed for 5G so they let them do thing they
>> have never allowed before.
>>
>> *From:* Robert
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 27, 2021 10:34 AM
>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Not going to qork
>>
>> Sounds like it was very expensive marketing, but that's what is going to
>> happen when you have that kind of cash flow and are in a frequency bind..
>>
>> On 12/27/21 7:45 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>>
>> I have told people for years it is nothing more than marketing.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Dec 27, 2021, at 8:28 AM, Jaime Solorza
>> mailto:losguyswirel...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Exactly...you can't fool mother naah, physics..
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 8:13 AM Bill Prince  wrote:
>>
>>> But then, we always knew that. Didn't we?
>>>
>>> Cells with a 500' radius. Yah, sure. That's gonna work.
>>>
>>> --
>>> bp
>>> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 6:10 AM Jaime Solorza 
>>> wrote:
>>>


 https://www.sdxcentral.com/articles/news/verizons-5g-mmwave-network-has-a-tree-problem/2021/12/
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Re: [AFMUG] Not going to qork

[Mathew Howard]

Well, that's shocking! Who could have possibly predicted that?

On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 12:26 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
wrote:

> It did result in greater cell tower density being fed by fiber.  They told
> city regulators it was needed for 5G so they let them do thing they have
> never allowed before.
>
> *From:* Robert
> *Sent:* Monday, December 27, 2021 10:34 AM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Not going to qork
>
> Sounds like it was very expensive marketing, but that's what is going to
> happen when you have that kind of cash flow and are in a frequency bind..
>
> On 12/27/21 7:45 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>
> I have told people for years it is nothing more than marketing.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 27, 2021, at 8:28 AM, Jaime Solorza
> mailto:losguyswirel...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> 
> Exactly...you can't fool mother naah, physics..
>
> On Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 8:13 AM Bill Prince  wrote:
>
>> But then, we always knew that. Didn't we?
>>
>> Cells with a 500' radius. Yah, sure. That's gonna work.
>>
>> --
>> bp
>> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 6:10 AM Jaime Solorza 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.sdxcentral.com/articles/news/verizons-5g-mmwave-network-has-a-tree-problem/2021/12/
>>> --
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>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
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Re: [AFMUG] happy

[Mathew Howard]

Finally, somebody with a reasonable response

On Tue, Dec 21, 2021 at 1:10 PM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> I want to cut you for this kind of hate speech
>
> On Tue, Dec 21, 2021, 12:00 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> winter
>>
>> --
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>>
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Re: [AFMUG] PacketFlux Site Monitor

[Mathew Howard]

I agree, I want to keep stuff running as long as possible. If the batteries
are getting drained often enough to matter, I have other problems that need
to be fixed. The one downside is that some gear may do strange things when
the voltage gets too low... ePMP radios will often reset themselves
to defaults when the voltage is close to their shutoff point (but that
"feature" can be disabled).

On Mon, Dec 20, 2021 at 12:59 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
wrote:

> Amen, I totally agree.  However you could shed non essential loads with a
> lvd relay.  Not that it would probably help a whole lot.
>
> *From:* Sean Heskett
> *Sent:* Monday, December 20, 2021 11:49 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] PacketFlux Site Monitor
>
> Not to distract form packetflux’s products but…
>
> We opt for no LVD, honestly I’d rather have the internet up and running as
> long as possible at the expense of having to replace batts early.
>
> In our experience (in NW ColoRADo) you can deep discharge AMG batts quite
> a few times with little impact to lifespan (ymmv)
>
> Sean
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 20, 2021 at 10:59 AM Jason Wilson 
> wrote:
>
>> Hopefully Forrest will chime in
>>
>> PacketFlux users Is there a way to have the site monitor or other
>> products cut power to a relay port when power X gets to a certain voltage.
>> Looking to do LVD at a solar site to shed some current draw before the
>> solar LVD disconnects the load.
>> --
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>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
> --
> Sean Heskett
>
> ZIRKEL
> Internet • WiFi • Phone • TV
> 970-871-8500 x100 - Office
>
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Re: [AFMUG] What are you gents using?

[Mathew Howard]

Based on what I've read, and my own experience with the PTP radios, LTU
probably isn't the best option if interference is the problem.

On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 5:01 PM  wrote:

> That wasn't a serious concern for me, no.
>
> They tend to leave old product behind and stop supporting it in their
> various softwares.  "old" could be 2 years (Air Vision) or maybe a lot
> longer, but you can't know ahead of time.  If they've pulled the rug out
> from under me several times and yet I keep buying their stuff then at some
> point it's my own fault.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Robert Andrews
> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 5:19 PM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] What are you gents using?
>
> Like suing you...
>
> On 12/17/21 12:27 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Lol
> >
> > I actually really like LTU, but I just think it’s safe to assume
> > Ubiquiti will screw me over if I build a business around it.
> >
> > *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via
> > AF
> > *Sent:* Friday, December 17, 2021 3:05 PM
> > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> > *Cc:* Chuck McCown 
> > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] What are you gents using?
> >
> > UBNT still around?
> >
> > *From:*Jan-GAMs
> >
> > *Sent:*Friday, December 17, 2021 12:29 PM
> >
> > *To:*af@af.afmug.com
> >
> > *Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] What are you gents using?
> >
> > Is ubnt LTU not being considered?
> >
> > On 12/17/21 11:02, Mathew Howard wrote:
> >
> > Yeah, that...
> >
> > We've had pretty good luck with mmwave if we keep them under 1/4
> > mile or so, but that's about as far as you can push ptmp and keep a
> > reasonably reliable connection. ptp mmwave is useful for several
> > miles, if you use them for the right purposes.
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 12:53 PM Chuck McCown via AF
> >  wrote:
> >
> > Like extreme short range, they quit in bad weather, things like
> > that?
> >
> > *From:*Mathew Howard
> >
> > *Sent:*Friday, December 17, 2021 11:45 AM
> >
> > *To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> >
> > *Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] What are you gents using?
> >
> > Well, technically, mmwave radios pretty much do eliminate that
> > problem. It's just that they add a bunch of other problems...
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 12:18 PM Chuck McCown via AF
> >  wrote:
> >
> > Gee guys, I thought the mm wave radios were going to
> > eliminate the problem...
> >
> > *From:*Daniel White
> >
> > *Sent:*Friday, December 17, 2021 10:42 AM
> >
> > *To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group ; Jaime Solorza
> >
> > *Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] What are you gents using?
> >
> > Better antennas.  Smaller channels.  Closer sites to the
> > subscriber.  Better use of geography to block noise.  Lower
> > AGL of APs on towers.  More antenna gain.
> >
> > This isn't an equipment question really... it is an RF
> > Engineering exercise.
> >
> > All things equal equipment like Cambium 450 will outperform
> > equipment based on wifi chipsets (Cambium ePMP, Mimosa,
> > Ubiquiti).  Beamforming is a big plus (but only helps if the
> > subscribers are distributed).
> >
> > I'd be using 30deg horns on everything I can.  Keep the subs
> > close in, and keep the AP's as low to the ground as possible
> > to prevent picking up distant interference.
> >
> > Image removed by sender. photograph
> >
> >
> >
> > *Daniel White
> > *Co-Founder
> >
> > *phone:*+1 (702) 470-2770
> > *direct:*+1 (702) 470-2766
> >
> > Jaime Solorza
> >
> > December 17, 2021 at 09:34
> >
> > Several WISPs in area are getting hammered with 5GHz
> > interference especially with DFS hits, the normal
> > channels are overcrowded...
> >
> > Ubiquiti and Cambium is mostly what they are usinga
> > few Mimosa out there but I know one wisp

Re: [AFMUG] What are you gents using?

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah, that...
We've had pretty good luck with mmwave if we keep them under 1/4 mile or
so, but that's about as far as you can push ptmp and keep a reasonably
reliable connection. ptp mmwave is useful for several miles, if you use
them for the right purposes.

On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 12:53 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
wrote:

> Like extreme short range, they quit in bad weather, things like that?
>
> *From:* Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Friday, December 17, 2021 11:45 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] What are you gents using?
>
> Well, technically, mmwave radios pretty much do eliminate that problem.
> It's just that they add a bunch of other problems...
>
> On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 12:18 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> Gee guys, I thought the mm wave radios were going to eliminate the
>> problem...
>>
>> *From:* Daniel White
>> *Sent:* Friday, December 17, 2021 10:42 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group ; Jaime Solorza
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] What are you gents using?
>>
>> Better antennas.  Smaller channels.  Closer sites to the subscriber.
>> Better use of geography to block noise.  Lower AGL of APs on towers.  More
>> antenna gain.
>>
>> This isn't an equipment question really... it is an RF Engineering
>> exercise.
>>
>> All things equal equipment like Cambium 450 will outperform equipment
>> based on wifi chipsets (Cambium ePMP, Mimosa, Ubiquiti).  Beamforming is a
>> big plus (but only helps if the subscribers are distributed).
>>
>> I'd be using 30deg horns on everything I can.  Keep the subs close in,
>> and keep the AP's as low to the ground as possible to prevent picking up
>> distant interference.
>>
>> [image: photograph]
>> Daniel White
>> Co-Founder
>> phone: +1 (702) 470-2770
>> direct: +1 (702) 470-2766
>>
>> Jaime Solorza
>> December 17, 2021 at 09:34
>> Several WISPs in area are getting hammered with 5GHz interference
>> especially with DFS hits, the normal channels are overcrowded...
>> Ubiquiti and Cambium is mostly what they are usinga few Mimosa out
>> there but I know one wisp who replaced all of his with Cambium and 60Ghz
>> AirFiber..
>> Any ideas?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>>
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Re: [AFMUG] What are you gents using?

[Mathew Howard]

Well, technically, mmwave radios pretty much do eliminate that problem.
It's just that they add a bunch of other problems...

On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 12:18 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
wrote:

> Gee guys, I thought the mm wave radios were going to eliminate the
> problem...
>
> *From:* Daniel White
> *Sent:* Friday, December 17, 2021 10:42 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group ; Jaime Solorza
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] What are you gents using?
>
> Better antennas.  Smaller channels.  Closer sites to the subscriber.
> Better use of geography to block noise.  Lower AGL of APs on towers.  More
> antenna gain.
>
> This isn't an equipment question really... it is an RF Engineering
> exercise.
>
> All things equal equipment like Cambium 450 will outperform equipment
> based on wifi chipsets (Cambium ePMP, Mimosa, Ubiquiti).  Beamforming is a
> big plus (but only helps if the subscribers are distributed).
>
> I'd be using 30deg horns on everything I can.  Keep the subs close in, and
> keep the AP's as low to the ground as possible to prevent picking up
> distant interference.
>
> [image: photograph]
> Daniel White
> Co-Founder
> phone: +1 (702) 470-2770
> direct: +1 (702) 470-2766
>
> Jaime Solorza
> December 17, 2021 at 09:34
> Several WISPs in area are getting hammered with 5GHz interference
> especially with DFS hits, the normal channels are overcrowded...
> Ubiquiti and Cambium is mostly what they are usinga few Mimosa out
> there but I know one wisp who replaced all of his with Cambium and 60Ghz
> AirFiber..
> Any ideas?
>
>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Ot: Grounded blankets

[Mathew Howard]

I bet that's really comfortable too!

On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 7:44 PM James Howard  wrote:

> Actually from the description it’s apparently a love seat…..and don’t
> go saying that’s still something someone might wear.
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 9, 2021 7:35 PM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Ot: Grounded blankets
>
>
>
> That looks like something Elon might wear.
>
>
>
> bp
>
> 
>
> On 12/9/2021 5:22 PM, James Howard wrote:
>
> [image: RON ARAD (b. 1951)]
>
> Stainless steel!   I think this list is slipping.  It sure took a long to
> get to real world answers to this question.  Not sure if this is a one or
> two person seat……..
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF   On Behalf Of
> Chuck McCown via AF
> Sent: Thursday, December 9, 2021 11:33 AM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  
> Cc: Chuck McCown  
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ot: Grounded blankets
>
>
>
> Copper mesh couch cover and everyone is naked.  That will work.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
>
> From: dmmoff...@gmail.com
>
> Sent: Thursday, December 9, 2021 8:45 AM
>
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ot: Grounded blankets
>
>
>
> Bond the couch to master ground bus bar with #6 copper wire.  Use dual
> hole lugs, sand the mating surfaces and apply no-ox.
>
> Use same wire gauge to bond wife with couch.  Location of wife's ground
> lugs varies by model, but check bottom of feet.
>
>
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
>
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2021 6:23 PM
>
> To: af@af.afmug.com
>
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ot: Grounded blankets
>
>
>
> Spray the couch with metallic paint.
>
>
>
>
>
> bp
>
> 
>
>
>
> On 12/8/2021 3:12 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
>
> > So we're back to the time of year when the wife gets zapped when she
>
> > gets off the couch and the turns off a light, and complaining ensues.
>
> > I've tried to get her to wear a grounded wrist strap, which works, but
>
> > she complains about having to take it on and off.  Can I just get a
>
> > grounded blanket or something to just ground the couch?
>
> >
>
>
>
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>
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>
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>
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>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
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>
>
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Alec Baldwin

[Mathew Howard]

It was reported at one point that the walk-off was partly related to gun
incidents... whether or not that's true, I have no idea.

On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 3:06 PM Bill Prince  wrote:

> I thought the walk-off was some kind of labor dispute, but I have not been
> paying particularly close attention.
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 12/2/2021 12:44 PM, Brian Webster wrote:
>
> Alec Baldwin being both the actor who held the gun AND the film producer
> has double the responsibility in this case. If he shirked those
> responsibilities that is no accident in my book. Not intentional
> necessarily but certainly an unavoidable accident.
>
>
>
> Didn’t I hear (and from the media mind you so that subject to falsities
> and misinterpretation) that part of the issue about the walk off was due to
> other gun incidents earlier in the production filming? As the producer
> Baldwin would be very responsible for those processes, procedures and
> adherence to the rules for filming. That alone would be negligence. There
> is likely a lot to this story we don’t know in the school of public opinion
> and knowledge and I am sure everyone was told to lawyer up and shut-up
> right after it happened.
>
>
>
> Tragic result no doubt, a horrible tragic result. Rules and regulations
> are no good if people don’t follow them or if they feel entitled and they
> don’t apply to them. Elitisms suck and there seems to be a lot of that in
> the world these days. The element of human greed or the feeling that
> someone is getting more because of avoidance of rules and such is part of
> the human experience. Communism certainly proved that.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Brian Webster
>
>
>
> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com ] *On
> Behalf Of *Jan-GAMs
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 2, 2021 3:28 PM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Alec Baldwin
>
>
>
> I agree, 3 people totally fucked-up, but I suspect there is a 4th person
> who put the live ammo in the gun.  Just because 3 f'ed-up, doesn't make
> them less responsible, I think these people should get neglicent homicide
> charges and the 4th person if found should get a homicide and attempted
> homicide charge.  All of them should get time in jail.
>
> On 12/2/21 11:44, Steve Jones wrote:
>
> thats what the armorers attorney is saying.
>
> That doesnt change any of the culpabilities though, it just adds another
> person to the list. IF the bullets were changed while the firearms were on
> the cart, thats still the armorers responsibility. Now baldwin as a
> producer who was cutting corners had the armorer in another roll that
> pulled her away from the weapon, but that still falls on her, shes
> responsible for the firearms.
>
> The other two still lose zero responsibility based on who put the bullet
> in there, its irrelevant to their negligence
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 1:35 PM Mathew Howard  wrote:
>
> Yes. I could give Baldwin a pass for not checking it himself, and
> delegating that responsibility to someone else since he's just a dumb
> actor, but that doesn't make him any less responsible. If he was too lazy
> or incompetent to check it himself, it's still his responsibility to make
> sure someone who was competent checked it for him.
>
>
>
> I also have to wonder if there's any chance somebody put live ammo in
> there intentionally... that would change things a bit.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 1:18 PM Jan-GAMs  wrote:
>
> Movie sets for years have had fairly extensive rules on firearms, ammo
> and the handling thereof.  What needs to happen with Rust is to find out
> how and why the rules were circumvented and find a way to make sure this
> never happens again.  If that includes jail for life for Alec Baldwin,
> so be it.  This shooting was no accident, it was a failure of 3
> individuals in a row to do their jobs and created a serious incident and
> loss of life.  There never should have been real ammo on the set, the
> person handing the weapon to Baldwin should have verified what was in
> the weapon and Baldwin should have checked.  None of that obviously took
> place.  Someone put real ammo in that gun, anyone who knows how to put a
> bullet into a revolver would have to know the bullets were not fake,
> this could be a 4th person since it is obvious the other 3 involved did
> not do their job.
>
> On 12/2/21 10:27, Jay Weekley wrote:
> > Just watch any action movie such as John Wicke, Saving Private Ryan,
> > Heat etc. There have been three deaths that I know of in all movies
> > and TV series combined that I know of.   Massive reform is not required.
> >
> > Mathew Howard wrote:
> >> Personally, I think all these calls for chan

Re: [AFMUG] OT Alec Baldwin

[Mathew Howard]

Yes. I could give Baldwin a pass for not checking it himself, and
delegating that responsibility to someone else since he's just a dumb
actor, but that doesn't make him any less responsible. If he was too lazy
or incompetent to check it himself, it's still his responsibility to make
sure someone who was competent checked it for him.

I also have to wonder if there's any chance somebody put live ammo in there
intentionally... that would change things a bit.

On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 1:18 PM Jan-GAMs  wrote:

> Movie sets for years have had fairly extensive rules on firearms, ammo
> and the handling thereof.  What needs to happen with Rust is to find out
> how and why the rules were circumvented and find a way to make sure this
> never happens again.  If that includes jail for life for Alec Baldwin,
> so be it.  This shooting was no accident, it was a failure of 3
> individuals in a row to do their jobs and created a serious incident and
> loss of life.  There never should have been real ammo on the set, the
> person handing the weapon to Baldwin should have verified what was in
> the weapon and Baldwin should have checked.  None of that obviously took
> place.  Someone put real ammo in that gun, anyone who knows how to put a
> bullet into a revolver would have to know the bullets were not fake,
> this could be a 4th person since it is obvious the other 3 involved did
> not do their job.
>
> On 12/2/21 10:27, Jay Weekley wrote:
> > Just watch any action movie such as John Wicke, Saving Private Ryan,
> > Heat etc. There have been three deaths that I know of in all movies
> > and TV series combined that I know of.   Massive reform is not required.
> >
> > Mathew Howard wrote:
> >> Personally, I think all these calls for changes to how the film
> >> industry handles weapons safety, banning guns from sets, etc. are
> >> more than likely completely unnecessary. It appears to me that they
> >> already have pretty strict safety procedures, which seem to have
> >> worked pretty well for the last century or so. If the reports that
> >> the safety procedures were repeatedly violated on that set are true
> >> (to the point people were walking off the set because they thought it
> >> was unsafe), that's the problem. The people that ignored the rules
> >> and procedures need to be held accountable, one way or another.
> >> Throwing a few people in prison is going to be pretty effective at
> >> making sure the rules are followed in the future. Monetary loss,
> >> which probably won't even significantly hurt the lackeys that are
> >> probably actually responsible (aside from Baldwin himself) isn't
> >> going to have the same effect.
> >>
> >> Accidents happen, and sometimes they're unavoidable, but this isn't
> >> just a simple accident. This couldn't have happened if certain people
> >> had actually done their job. I don't think it's terribly unreasonable
> >> to hand a gun to some idiot actor and tell him to do whatever he
> >> needs to do with it, even if he's clueless and might violate every
> >> aspect of standard firearms safety - provided that gun passed through
> >> the hands of several other people who know what they're doing and
> >> verified there was no way it could hurt anybody.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 11:51 AM Chuck McCown via AF  >> <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >> So, what does jail time fix?  A deterrent?  Sending a message?  A
> >> spanking for bad humans?
> >> This was an accident.  My wife wrecked a car 20 years ago and one
> >> of my sons died.  Should she have been put in jail? Accidents
> >> happen.
> >> The family has civil remedies because money is the only thing the
> >> legal system can do to attempt to make one whole.
> >> *From:* Steve Jones
> >> *Sent:* Thursday, December 2, 2021 10:43 AM
> >> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Alec Baldwin
> >> firearm safety is a universal applied universally to firearms.
> >> There is no different level of safety for different people. A
> >> firearms inherent danger doesnt lessen depending on where its used
> >> (maybe around flammable gasses). I hate cop out excuses for
> >> mishandling firearms. Thats how we have gotten to a point where
> >> people are afraid of an inanimate object.
> >> Now, putting a firearm in a morons hand like alec baldwin adds to
> >> the inherent danger, but thats beyond the basic principles of
> >

Re: [AFMUG] yagi connection

[Mathew Howard]

That's not really the right radio to use with that antenna, those antennas
were designed to be used with the Rocket M900.

You can use it with the Loco, but you're only going to be using it as a
single polarity yagi, and just leave the second cable disconnected. There
are a couple of ways you can do it, you can set the antenna to "External +
Internal (2x2)", and it use the internal antenna for one polarity, and the
yagi for the other (which is going to result in one chain being ~8db weaker
on the link), in which case you need to connect to the correct polarity on
the yagi (I don't recall which polarity it uses for the internal, that
might be in the documentation somewhere). The other option is to set it to
"External (1x1)", in which case it doesn't matter which polarity you use,
as long as both ends of the link are the same (if it's a Loco with only an
internal antenna on the other end, you could use either).

On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 12:39 PM Jan-GAMs  wrote:

> I've got some ubiquiti Nano-locos and would like to connect them to a
> yagi AMY-9M16x2.  The Yagi antenna has two cables, the Loco has one
> port.  Which cable do I use for the Nano and what do I do with the other
> loose cable?
>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Alec Baldwin

[Mathew Howard]

Personally, I think all these calls for changes to how the film industry
handles weapons safety, banning guns from sets, etc. are more than likely
completely unnecessary. It appears to me that they already have pretty
strict safety procedures, which seem to have worked pretty well for the
last century or so. If the reports that the safety procedures were
repeatedly violated on that set are true (to the point people were walking
off the set because they thought it was unsafe), that's the problem. The
people that ignored the rules and procedures need to be held accountable,
one way or another. Throwing a few people in prison is going to be pretty
effective at making sure the rules are followed in the future. Monetary
loss, which probably won't even significantly hurt the lackeys that are
probably actually responsible (aside from Baldwin himself) isn't going to
have the same effect.

Accidents happen, and sometimes they're unavoidable, but this isn't just a
simple accident. This couldn't have happened if certain people had actually
done their job. I don't think it's terribly unreasonable to hand a gun to
some idiot actor and tell him to do whatever he needs to do with it, even
if he's clueless and might violate every aspect of standard firearms safety
- provided that gun passed through the hands of several other people who
know what they're doing and verified there was no way it could hurt anybody.


On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 11:51 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> So, what does jail time fix?  A deterrent?  Sending a message?  A spanking
> for bad humans?
>
> This was an accident.  My wife wrecked a car 20 years ago and one of my
> sons died.  Should she have been put in jail?  Accidents happen.
>
> The family has civil remedies because money is the only thing the legal
> system can do to attempt to make one whole.
>
> *From:* Steve Jones
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 2, 2021 10:43 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Alec Baldwin
>
> firearm safety is a universal applied universally to firearms. There is no
> different level of safety for different people. A firearms inherent danger
> doesnt lessen depending on where its used (maybe around flammable gasses).
> I hate cop out excuses for mishandling firearms. Thats how we have gotten
> to a point where people are afraid of an inanimate object.
> Now, putting a firearm in a morons hand like alec baldwin adds to the
> inherent danger, but thats beyond the basic principles of firearm safety
> (the ones that dont change)
>
> Multiple people need to see some jail time, starting with the person
> operating the firearm, thats the person ultimately responsible. The
> armorer, unless she can prove her sabatoge claim, needs to be in a cell.
> the guy who picked it up and gave it to the moron is just as culpable as
> twerp baldwin. Maybe they can be cellmates and split their time with shower
> bubba.
>
> This is a perfect example of why rule 1 exists, willfull ignorance of that
> is called negligence.
>
> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 11:12 AM Daniel White  wrote:
>
>> I'm nervous around anyone with a firearm because on principle I trust no
>> one.  I trust no firearm is unloaded unless I maintain possession and
>> cleared it myself.  Active Duty/former military is mostly an exception
>> since you act without respect there you can expect to have your face in the
>> dirt pretty quick.
>>
>> I get though that you can't expect actors to know all the firearms they
>> handle.  The system they use is supposed to have multiple fail safes so
>> that the actor doesn't need to be a weapons expert.  I think the system
>> works considering how few on set accidents have happened... and obviously
>> procedure wasn't followed here.
>>
>> As I said, I think Alec is in some serious trouble as a producer... but I
>> doubt anything will happen criminally in regards to him pulling the trigger.
>>
>> [image: photograph]
>> Daniel White
>> Co-Founder
>> phone: +1 (702) 470-2770
>> direct: +1 (702) 470-2766
>>
>> Bill Prince
>> December 2, 2021 at 09:55
>>
>> You and me both. When I'm in the presence of people who (I feel) are a
>> bit too cavalier with a firearm, I get very nervous, and my natural
>> instinct is to get the hell away from that person. I was taught to treat
>> every firearm as if it is loaded. My bolt action rifle, I keep the bolt
>> stored separate from the rifle. I don't put it in until I am ready to use
>> it.
>>
>>
>> bp
>> 
>> On 12/2/2021 7:46 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>>
>>
>> Chuck McCown via AF
>> December 2, 2021 at 08:46
>> One junk news article has another person on the set saying his finger was
>> on the trigger guard.
>> Whether single or double action, a revolver takes some force to fire.
>> I supposed if it was fully cocked and adjusted to have a hair trigger it
>> is possible to be extra easy to touch off.
>>
>> I just cannot imagine someone handing me a firearm expecting me to wave
>> it around in the general direction of people 

Re: [AFMUG] Request

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah, that ALPU-L130 looks to just be a pretty standard surge suppressor.
I'd think a 800-GIGE-SS-HV should be a direct replacement.

On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 10:40 AM TJ Trout  wrote:

> 800-GIGE-SS-HV
>
> On Wed, Dec 1, 2021, 7:08 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:
>
>> From Jim Carlson:
>>
>>
>> Chuck, I hope you and the family are doing well. I am living in Michigan
>> with my Wife Barb and helping my Dad in his late years.  I'm looking for
>> some ALPU-L130 devices and our supplier said they were unavailable for more
>> than a month.  Do you have any suggestions?
>>
>>
>> Anyone have suggestions?
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> --
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>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT: Standing Desks

[Mathew Howard]

That free floating setup looks like it might be slightly painful

On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 12:28 PM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> ive never met a standing desk that works as envisioned. I installed a
> topper for a customer once that sat on top of the desk. It was bulky,
> raised the base height 4 inches when down, burned tons of surface space.
> The RV stabilizer system would be perfect, but theyre pricey for auto
> levelling and the scissors might stick out. Go find some hoodrats with
> hydraulics on their car. they can get you lifted.
>
> A best place to look for adjustable standing desks would be a legitimate
> commercial drafting supply shop, they built this wheel long before skinny
> jean wearing latte punks made it a fad.
>
> You could also get her in on the ground floor of the next big fad, free
> floating workspace:
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 12:09 PM Nate Burke  wrote:
>
>> The Wife want's a standing desk (with the push button up/down control).
>> Her current desk was built by me and is solid 2x4 construction with a
>> 3/4" laminate top.  You could dance on it and it doesn't move.  I
>> originally built it to hold my multiple 21" CRT Monitors, and HP 5SI
>> printer.I'm concerned that she won't be happy with how much the
>> standing desks wobble when they're raised up, especially since she
>> envisions doing virtual presentations with it all the way up (we are
>> both tall).  We checked out the Ikea standing desks, and they all seem
>> to wobble when fully extended, she thinks that it is fine, but I'm
>> trying to prevent a future 'I told you so' headache later.  It seems
>> like someone would make an extension kit that you just bolt onto
>> existing desk legs, or just replace the legs.  A couple motors and
>> threaded rod with a control board.  Or is there more to it than that?
>> The boss has an automatic Jack System on his RV.  Something similar for
>> a desk?
>>
>> --
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>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
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Re: [AFMUG] Upgrading to AC radios

[Mathew Howard]

Trylon definitely makes similar stamped towers... I've been on a few of
them. But I don't think the Trylons have that weird tapering this one has,
and it looks like the Rohn BX series does.

On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 10:41 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
wrote:

> Sure looks like that one I had but I was sure it was trilon or triex or
> something tri or try.
>
> *From:* Cameron Crum
> *Sent:* Monday, November 29, 2021 8:52 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Upgrading to AC radios
>
> Although with those tapered sections it does look like it might be this
> Rohn BX. https://www.qsl.net/n4emp/BX_Tower_Manual.pdf
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 9:46 AM Cameron Crum  wrote:
>
>> I had one of these for a small neighborhood repeater, or at least one of
>> the same design with the riveted cross braces. It was a Delhi DMX.
>>
>> https://alliancecorporation.ca/images/documents/Wade-Antenna/Roof_Mounts_and_DMX_Tower_Series/Towers/Wade-Antenna-DMX-Tower-Series-Specifications.pdf
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 2:36 PM Jaime Solorza 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> These are what I have but didn't wear yesterday...duh
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 8:33 AM can...@believewireless.net <
>>> p...@believewireless.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jaime, what boots do you use?
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 10:03 PM Jaime Solorza <
>>>> losguyswirel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> No...Sucky Tower From Hell Model: FU-666
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021, 6:58 PM Bill Prince  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh yeah. I think that's the one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> bp
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/23/2021 5:55 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Trylon, I think.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021, 6:26 PM Bill Prince 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think it's Rohn. Some other brand that escapes me at the
>>>>>>> moment. I think some people call any 3-sided tower a Rohn. Kind of like
>>>>>>> refrigerators used to all be called Frigidaire, or all facial tissue is
>>>>>>> Kleenex.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> bp
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/23/2021 12:26 PM, Jaime Solorza wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Owner says it's a Rohn...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021, 1:15 PM Cameron Crum 
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I thought those were Delhi towers? I had one of those under that
>>>>>>>> brand.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cameron
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 11:56 AM Jaime Solorza <
>>>>>>>> losguyswirel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yep Rohn...even with my heavy expensive boots, feet hurt...and I
>>>>>>>>> am no wimp...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021, 10:35 AM Chuck McCown via AF <
>>>>>>>>> af@af.afmug.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I had steel shank climbing boots and still had a hard time with
>>>>>>>>>> one of
>>>>>>>>>> those.
>>>>>>>>>> Painful.  Nothing horizontal.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Are they Rohn?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>>>>>>> From: Bill Prince
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2021 10:14 AM
>>>>>>>>>> To: af@af.afmug.com
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Upgrading to AC radios
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Oh yeah. Those stink.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> bp
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 11/23/2021 9:05 AM, Jaime Solorza wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> > I hate these Rohn towers...tough on your feet...
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> AF mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>>>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> AF mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>>>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> AF mailing list
>>>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> AF mailing list
>>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> AF mailing list
>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> AF mailing list
>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> AF mailing list
>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> AF mailing list
>>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>>
>>> --
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>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>> --
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Re: [AFMUG] Upgrading to AC radios

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah, I think you're right, that does look like a Rohn BX. I thought Rohn
had another stamped tower, but it's not listed on their website. Maybe they
discontinued the BX series?

On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 9:53 AM Cameron Crum  wrote:

> Although with those tapered sections it does look like it might be this
> Rohn BX. https://www.qsl.net/n4emp/BX_Tower_Manual.pdf
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 9:46 AM Cameron Crum  wrote:
>
>> I had one of these for a small neighborhood repeater, or at least one of
>> the same design with the riveted cross braces. It was a Delhi DMX.
>>
>> https://alliancecorporation.ca/images/documents/Wade-Antenna/Roof_Mounts_and_DMX_Tower_Series/Towers/Wade-Antenna-DMX-Tower-Series-Specifications.pdf
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 2:36 PM Jaime Solorza 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> These are what I have but didn't wear yesterday...duh
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 8:33 AM can...@believewireless.net <
>>> p...@believewireless.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jaime, what boots do you use?
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 10:03 PM Jaime Solorza <
>>>> losguyswirel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> No...Sucky Tower From Hell Model: FU-666
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021, 6:58 PM Bill Prince  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh yeah. I think that's the one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> bp
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/23/2021 5:55 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Trylon, I think.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021, 6:26 PM Bill Prince 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think it's Rohn. Some other brand that escapes me at the
>>>>>>> moment. I think some people call any 3-sided tower a Rohn. Kind of like
>>>>>>> refrigerators used to all be called Frigidaire, or all facial tissue is
>>>>>>> Kleenex.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> bp
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/23/2021 12:26 PM, Jaime Solorza wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Owner says it's a Rohn...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021, 1:15 PM Cameron Crum 
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I thought those were Delhi towers? I had one of those under that
>>>>>>>> brand.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cameron
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 11:56 AM Jaime Solorza <
>>>>>>>> losguyswirel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yep Rohn...even with my heavy expensive boots, feet hurt...and I
>>>>>>>>> am no wimp...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021, 10:35 AM Chuck McCown via AF <
>>>>>>>>> af@af.afmug.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I had steel shank climbing boots and still had a hard time with
>>>>>>>>>> one of
>>>>>>>>>> those.
>>>>>>>>>> Painful.  Nothing horizontal.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Are they Rohn?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>>>>>>> From: Bill Prince
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2021 10:14 AM
>>>>>>>>>> To: af@af.afmug.com
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Upgrading to AC radios
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Oh yeah. Those stink.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> bp
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 11/23/2021 9:05 AM, Jaime Solorza wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> > I hate these Rohn towers...tough on your feet...
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> AF mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>>>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> AF mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>>>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> AF mailing list
>>>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> AF mailing list
>>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> AF mailing list
>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> AF mailing list
>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
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>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>>>
>>>> --
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>>>>
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Re: [AFMUG] Upgrading to AC radios

[Mathew Howard]

Trylon, I think.

On Tue, Nov 23, 2021, 6:26 PM Bill Prince  wrote:

> I don't think it's Rohn. Some other brand that escapes me at the moment. I
> think some people call any 3-sided tower a Rohn. Kind of like refrigerators
> used to all be called Frigidaire, or all facial tissue is Kleenex.
>
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 11/23/2021 12:26 PM, Jaime Solorza wrote:
>
> Owner says it's a Rohn...
>
> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021, 1:15 PM Cameron Crum  wrote:
>
>> I thought those were Delhi towers? I had one of those under that brand.
>>
>> Cameron
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 11:56 AM Jaime Solorza 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yep Rohn...even with my heavy expensive boots, feet hurt...and I am no
>>> wimp...
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021, 10:35 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I had steel shank climbing boots and still had a hard time with one of
 those.
 Painful.  Nothing horizontal.

 Are they Rohn?

 -Original Message-
 From: Bill Prince
 Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2021 10:14 AM
 To: af@af.afmug.com
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Upgrading to AC radios

 Oh yeah. Those stink.


 bp
 

 On 11/23/2021 9:05 AM, Jaime Solorza wrote:
 > I hate these Rohn towers...tough on your feet...
 >

 --
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 AF@af.afmug.com
 http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


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 AF@af.afmug.com
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT breaking lent

[Mathew Howard]

He may or may not have gone looking for trouble (it's far from clear that
was the case, and he's probably the only one who really knows), but the
exact same logic applies to the three creeps he shot - they were almost
certainly there looking for trouble.

On Sat, Nov 20, 2021 at 1:29 PM Bill Prince  wrote:

> Don't see it that way. The twerp went looking for trouble, and he got it.
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 11/20/2021 11:17 AM, Jay Weekley wrote:
> > Two people caused their own death that day.  Yes, he should have
> > stayed home that day as well as all the rioters.
> >
> > Bill Prince wrote:
> >> The point that should be made is that exactly two people died by any
> >> means that day, and the young twerp was the cause of both. If he had
> >> stayed home watching Walker Texas Ranger (or whatever gets his
> >> jollies up), no one would have died.
> >>
> >>
> >> bp
> >> 
> >>
> >> On 11/20/2021 11:04 AM, Jay Weekley wrote:
> >>> I won't be hit in the head with a skateboard or anything else more
> >>> than once.
> >>>
> >>> Bill Prince wrote:
>  Let's count how many people were killed by skateboards that day.
> 
>  Hmmm.
> 
>  Still zero.
> 
>  Shoot 'em anyway.
> 
> 
>  bp
>  
> 
>  On 11/20/2021 10:46 AM, Jay Weekley wrote:
> > As skateboard can be a deadly weapon. People die from one or two
> > punches to the head. In fact, we are more likely to be beaten to
> > death by someones hands or feet than be killed by a rifle of any
> > caliber or style.
> >
> > Robert Andrews wrote:
> >> Hold them accountable with _Due Process_ which this kid got but
> >> the "rioters" didn't. I think if it was your relative that was
> >> dead in the street YOUR perspective might be different.   No one
> >> died in this event _Except_ as a result of this kid. Was it right
> >> that the guy was beating him with a skateboard, NO.  Was he going
> >> to die from the beating with a skateboard?  Not likely... Was he
> >> at a house/business defending it/them? No  Was he a perfect Media
> >> (either side) tool, most certainly...
> >>
> >> On 11/19/21 1:19 PM, Larry Smith wrote:
> >>> So in your view the riots, burning, looting are ok but not
> >>> the holding of them accountable.  Wonder if it were your
> >>> house or business (or families) if you would feel differently.
> >>>
> >>
> >
> 
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT: DART mission.

[Mathew Howard]

sending a nuke would be more fun...

On Sat, Nov 20, 2021 at 11:49 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
wrote:

> I wish they would gently contact it and then fire an engine rather than
> just
> crash into it.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Bill Prince
> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2021 10:34 AM
> To: AFMUG
> Subject: [AFMUG] OT: DART mission.
>
> All that's missing is Bruce Willis.
>
>
>
> https://www.sciencenews.org/article/asteroid-moon-name-nasa-course-deflection-mission
>
>
> --
> bp
> 
>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT breaking lent

[Mathew Howard]

It is here in Wisconsin, which is what matters in this case.

On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 4:26 PM Jason McKemie <
j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:

> Open carry isn't legal here as far as I know...
>
> On Friday, November 19, 2021, Steve Jones 
> wrote:
>
>> so you believe that your constitutionally re-affirmed rights should be
>> infringed because others may misbehave? interesting take. The simps
>> response is always "but you cant yell fire in a theater" thats a direct
>> action, not a simple presence of right and very simplike and well trained
>> response thats as effective as viagra in a fish tank.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 4:18 PM Jason McKemie <
>> j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I couldn't agree more. I think when you walk around in a potentially
>>> volatile situation (or really any public situation) with a loaded assault
>>> rifle in-hand, you should be held responsible for what happens thereafter.
>>>
>>> On Friday, November 19, 2021, Bill Prince  wrote:
>>>
 No comments on the riots or lack thereof, but it seems to me that the
 young twerp crossed state lines with a semi-automatic to be the
 self-appointed "police", and as a result a couple of people died. If said
 young twerp had stayed home and watched Chuck Norris on TV, maybe no one
 would have died, and maybe a few windows might have been broken.

 I do not hold windows and lives as equivalent.


 bp
 

 On 11/19/2021 11:07 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

 Forgive me, but I want to make this comment:

 (I hope I don’t regret this)

 The news media seem heartbroken that there are not riots in Wisconsin.

 Using lots of phrases like: “pretty calm – AT THE MOMENT”.
 Or “we are hunkered down in a safe place, prepared for violence”.
 Or “Maybe there is a small number that want to get violent”
 It appears to be calm there.  I am hopeful people are sick of riots.
 But the media are certainly not sick of them.

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Re: [AFMUG] OT question for the borg

[Mathew Howard]

I'd think you could bill whichever one you wanted to in that situation.
Just because you can hold the renter liable doesn't necessarily mean you
want to. The towing company should be the ones that ultimately pay for it
either way.

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 1:08 PM Nate Burke  wrote:

> I don't do a lot of rentals, but if your Enterprise rent-a-car gets towed,
> enterprise will just bill you for everything, they're not going to bother
> going after whoever actually did it?  The damage happened while it was in
> the possession of the renter, seems the renter would be the only liability
> to you.  It's their fault that it got towed and needs repair,  whether or
> not the towing company caused the damage.
>
>
> On 11/15/2021 12:49 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>
> I get your point, but the renter did not cause the “damage” the tow
> company did.
> When in the custody of the tow company, they are on the hook for all
> damage.
>
> *From:* Nate Burke
> *Sent:* Monday, November 15, 2021 11:03 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT question for the borg
>
> Also, why would you be billing the towing company, and not the renter?
> Cost incurred during rental should be the renters responsibility.  If they
> want to re-bill the towing company that shouldn't involve you.  Same as if
> they drove it into a pylon and you had to replace the bumper.
>
> On 11/15/2021 11:51 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>
> I will just bill them for the repair.  And if they don’t pay in a month to
> two file a small claims action.  Very easy.
>
> *From:* Jaime Solorza
> *Sent:* Monday, November 15, 2021 9:46 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT question for the borg
>
> Get a good lawyer
>
> On Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 9:29 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:
>
>> I rent out equipment.
>> A contractor that rents a truck from me let his employee take it home.
>> He parked it at an apartment house either in someone elses spot or did
>> not register it with the apartment company.
>> It got towed.
>> I had to send paperwork to the towing company releasing it to the
>> contractor.
>> This morning, we learned they took off the driveline and will not put it
>> back on.
>>
>> I don’t think that is legal.  They disabled it.  They got paid for the
>> tow.  They should restore it.
>> Unless someone can show me where they have the legal ability to do that,
>> I will probably bill them for the repair and then sue when they don’t pay.
>>
>> Opinions?
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Re: [AFMUG] To Customers, Cause != Effect

[Mathew Howard]

I wish that sort of thing still surprised me, but it doesn't.

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 11:04 AM Nate Burke  wrote:

> It just blew my mind that the customer freely said they were moving cables
> around, but in their mind, that had absolutely no cause as to why their
> internet stopped working.
>
> On 11/15/2021 10:47 AM, Mathew Howard wrote:
>
> Well, that is the obvious logical conclusion there...
>
> On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 9:36 AM Nate Burke  wrote:
>
>> "I'd like to report an outage that the tower is down.  I was moving
>> cables around behind my router, and now the internet doesn't work, so
>> your tower is offline.  Please get the tower fixed ASAP, I have a lot of
>> work to do today."
>>
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>>
>
>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] To Customers, Cause != Effect

[Mathew Howard]

Well, that is the obvious logical conclusion there...

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 9:36 AM Nate Burke  wrote:

> "I'd like to report an outage that the tower is down.  I was moving
> cables around behind my router, and now the internet doesn't work, so
> your tower is offline.  Please get the tower fixed ASAP, I have a lot of
> work to do today."
>
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Re: [AFMUG] FS: 2 bridgewave 80ghz antennas

[Mathew Howard]

What model are the radios?

On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 3:19 PM Seth Mattinen  wrote:

> Make an offer. Highest by Monday gets them. Ships on your account. Unused:
> one opened, one never opened. Going in trash if no takers.
>
> Also have radios, also never deployed but have been opened and powered on
> to config for a project that never happened. Can take pics if interested.
>
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
>
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Re: [AFMUG] One of these force 300 is not like the other

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah, they help keep things in place while you're assembling it, but once
the radio and screws are in, they don't really seem necessary.

On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 4:47 PM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> I wonder 9f the punch spec was to punch the other direction. Theres no
> real reason for the tabs to be offset. I just broke those out since they
> dont seem to serve any real purpose other than irritating a person on field
> swaps
>
> On Thu, Nov 4, 2021, 4:42 PM Mathew Howard  wrote:
>
>> Cutting of the metal tabs with something like an angle grinder with a
>> cut-off wheel in it would probably work pretty well. I think I used a 3"
>> cut-off tool last time, which didn't work too badly. I've tried just
>> bending them out of the way, but that causes problems.
>>
>> It really annoys me, because all they would've needed to do is shift
>> those tabs over like 1/8" and it would've worked just fine either way. It
>> almost looks like they intentionally designed it to be able to flip over,
>> and then changed it slightly so it couldn't.
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 4:28 PM Steve Jones 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> You find a good way to grind out the punch? I didnt have an angle
>>> grinder with me just a bench grinder, took forever and is rough.
>>>
>>> Its irritating because the punch is a viewing window for the LEDs and
>>> the pins are set for rotation. But then a second engineer designer smoked
>>> crack and finished up the design
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 4, 2021, 4:14 PM Mathew Howard  wrote:
>>>
>>>> been there, done that...
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 4:11 PM Steve Jones 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> --
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>>>>>
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Re: [AFMUG] One of these force 300 is not like the other

[Mathew Howard]

Cutting of the metal tabs with something like an angle grinder with a
cut-off wheel in it would probably work pretty well. I think I used a 3"
cut-off tool last time, which didn't work too badly. I've tried just
bending them out of the way, but that causes problems.

It really annoys me, because all they would've needed to do is shift those
tabs over like 1/8" and it would've worked just fine either way. It almost
looks like they intentionally designed it to be able to flip over, and then
changed it slightly so it couldn't.

On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 4:28 PM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> You find a good way to grind out the punch? I didnt have an angle grinder
> with me just a bench grinder, took forever and is rough.
>
> Its irritating because the punch is a viewing window for the LEDs and the
> pins are set for rotation. But then a second engineer designer smoked crack
> and finished up the design
>
> On Thu, Nov 4, 2021, 4:14 PM Mathew Howard  wrote:
>
>> been there, done that...
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 4:11 PM Steve Jones 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> --
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Re: [AFMUG] One of these force 300 is not like the other

[Mathew Howard]

been there, done that...

On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 4:11 PM Steve Jones 
wrote:

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Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik CCR2004 PSA

[Mathew Howard]

The new RB5009 is also v7 only.

Does this mean v7 is actually getting to the point that it's usable?

On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 3:26 PM Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> That's one hell of a PSA!  Thanks.
>
> Josh Luthman
> 24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 12:48 PM Nate Burke  wrote:
>
>> I forgot there was more than one CCR2004 model.  I was specifically
>> talking about the CCR2004-16G-2S+, the Routerboard Product page for it says
>> V7 only.
>>
>> On 10/29/2021 11:41 AM, Josh Baird wrote:
>>
>> None of mine shipped with ROS7.  I have probably 8-10 of them, all on
>> ROS6.  Guess it must be the newer batch.  I wonder if ROS7 fixed the issues
>> with them.
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 12:33 PM Nate Burke  wrote:
>>
>>> Just got my shipment in, I missed that they come with ROS7.0.4 and you
>>> can't downgrade them to V6, so if You're not ready to make the leap to
>>> V7, this isn't the RB for you.
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT AI will answer all your questions

[Mathew Howard]

If it was smarter, it would just automatically say anything you (you
specifically, not everyone) ask it is disgusting...

On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 10:29 AM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> Apparently it's ok to lick butt, but disgusting to tongue punch her fart
> box. Who knew
>
> On Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 10:11 AM Mathew Howard  wrote:
>
>> Stabbing a cheeseburger is wrong, but stabbing a cheeseburger with a fork
>> is okay and stabbing it with a knife is weird.
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 4:15 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> https://delphi.allenai.org/?a1=cleaning+a+toilet+bowl+with+my+dog%27s+blanket
>>>
>>> BTW, it is OK to clean out a toilet with your wife’s towel but not your
>>> dog’s blanket.
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Re: [AFMUG] OT AI will answer all your questions

[Mathew Howard]

Stabbing a cheeseburger is wrong, but stabbing a cheeseburger with a fork
is okay and stabbing it with a knife is weird.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 4:15 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

>
> https://delphi.allenai.org/?a1=cleaning+a+toilet+bowl+with+my+dog%27s+blanket
>
> BTW, it is OK to clean out a toilet with your wife’s towel but not your
> dog’s blanket.
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Re: [AFMUG] Ethernet ground block

[Mathew Howard]

There is that. And I have seen issues with water ingress on the MImosa
ones, specifically. hard to say if they blew up for now reason or for a
reason though...

On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 12:53 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:

> I would care if it blew up for no reason or if there was water ingress
> through a crummy seal.
> On 10/7/2021 1:45 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
>
> Yeah, I don't really see a good reason to not just use a surge suppressor.
> Cheap-rate Ubiquiti or Mimosa suppressors can be had for ~$10... and you
> obviously aren't going to care much about the quality of the actual surge
> suppression in this case anyway.
>
> On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 12:28 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
>> I guess both indoor and outdoor?  Bonding for R56 compliance and also
>> for maybe getting RF noise to ground without going through our switch.
>>
>> I suppose indoor we can hack it, and outdoor might as well use the surge
>> suppressor.  I'd imagine the housing and glands and such is more money
>> than the PCB so there's nothing gained by paring it down.
>>
>> -Adam
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/7/2021 12:56 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>> > Trim back the jacket and attach a ground wire.  Are you wanting
>> > something for outdoor mounting?  It would have to be two shielded
>> > jacks and you would have to use shielded plugs on it.  So two jacks on
>> > a pcb and then some kind of housing.
>> >
>> > -Original Message- From: Adam Moffett
>> > Sent: Thursday, October 7, 2021 10:45 AM
>> > To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> > Subject: [AFMUG] Ethernet ground block
>> >
>> > Is there an equivalent to the cable TV ground blocks but for Cat5?
>> >
>> > I would basically look like a coupler with a ground wire attached to the
>> > shield.  Much more basic than a surge suppressor.
>> >
>> > -Adam
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
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Re: [AFMUG] Ethernet ground block

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah, I don't really see a good reason to not just use a surge suppressor.
Cheap-rate Ubiquiti or Mimosa suppressors can be had for ~$10... and you
obviously aren't going to care much about the quality of the actual surge
suppression in this case anyway.

On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 12:28 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:

> I guess both indoor and outdoor?  Bonding for R56 compliance and also
> for maybe getting RF noise to ground without going through our switch.
>
> I suppose indoor we can hack it, and outdoor might as well use the surge
> suppressor.  I'd imagine the housing and glands and such is more money
> than the PCB so there's nothing gained by paring it down.
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
> On 10/7/2021 12:56 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
> > Trim back the jacket and attach a ground wire.  Are you wanting
> > something for outdoor mounting?  It would have to be two shielded
> > jacks and you would have to use shielded plugs on it.  So two jacks on
> > a pcb and then some kind of housing.
> >
> > -Original Message- From: Adam Moffett
> > Sent: Thursday, October 7, 2021 10:45 AM
> > To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> > Subject: [AFMUG] Ethernet ground block
> >
> > Is there an equivalent to the cable TV ground blocks but for Cat5?
> >
> > I would basically look like a coupler with a ground wire attached to the
> > shield.  Much more basic than a surge suppressor.
> >
> > -Adam
> >
> >
> >
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 3GHz radio question

[Mathew Howard]

That's not true for the 3ghz 450B SMs, they can be switched to PTP mode
(which essentially turns them into a PTP 450). We have a link running with
two of the SMs in PTP mode.

On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 6:32 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:

> Yes if he has an SM then he needs an AP to make a link, but they do make
> "PTP 450" products that are in the same form factor as an SM.  Maybe he has
> two of those?
>
> If he's in FCC territory he also needs to sign up for a SAS vendor through
> CnMaestro to use those legally.  Current firmware still lets you disable
> the CBRS mode and operate the old way, but nobody should be doing that on a
> new deployment.
>
> -Adam
>
>
> On 10/6/2021 6:58 PM, Jaime Solorza wrote:
>
> A local wisp said he ordered a 3Ghz Cambium subscriber unit and waiting on
> another of same...i told him i believe you need a dedicated AP to
> subscriber and you can't configure a subscriber as an AP ..
> Am I wrong? Never seen or worked with any
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 3GHz radio question

[Mathew Howard]

The 3ghz 450B can be configured as point to point radios (one can be set as
a PTP master, and the other a PTP slave). I'm not sure if that's true of
the other variants or not, but it definitely is for the 450B 3ghz. You do
need to setup all the CBRS stuff though (assuming he's in the US).

On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 6:00 PM Jaime Solorza 
wrote:

> A local wisp said he ordered a 3Ghz Cambium subscriber unit and waiting on
> another of same...i told him i believe you need a dedicated AP to
> subscriber and you can't configure a subscriber as an AP ..
> Am I wrong? Never seen or worked with any
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquti question

[Mathew Howard]

Depends on noise, but I would expect 20-30Mbps at best.

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 2:02 PM Jaime Solorza 
wrote:

> What kind of speeds do you see using a 10Mhz channel in 5Ghz Rocket M5 to
> Power ram with -72dBm on downloading?
> --
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> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] facebook outage

[Mathew Howard]

bandwidth looks pretty normal here, maybe a slight increase.

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 2:46 PM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> I havent checked, but id expect to see a slight increase from youtube and
> netflix. its not like having a fb break leads to human interaction
>
> On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 2:43 PM Nate Burke  wrote:
>
>> Anyone seeing any bandwidth changes as a result of the outage?  My levels
>> are exactly normal.
>>
>> On 10/4/2021 2:39 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> I’m thinking it’s mostly likely the Facebook owned registrar is down
>> because Facebook is down, rather than the other way around.
>>
>> I think the security breach idea is interesting, but I’d be very curious
>> where that intel came from.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF   *On
>> Behalf Of *Steve Jones
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 04, 2021 3:27 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] facebook outage
>>
>>
>>
>> their registrar is down as well - registrasafe.com, there were updates
>> made for both the registrar and the FB owned domains around 9am central (14
>> something zulu), after which it all went dark
>>
>>
>>
>> Their ASN shows up in the world
>>
>> Many of their IPs hit facebook error pages
>>
>>
>>
>> I have my money on the registrar taking the hit if this was malicious
>>
>>
>>
>> I also bought Keyon shares, so theres that
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 2:19 PM < dmmoff...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Is this registrar idea merely speculation or do we have a source for that?
>>
>>
>>
>> I can’t reach their DNS servers.  I do have routes to the networks their
>> DNS servers are on, and tracert stops in one of their /16’s.
>>
>> Seems like their DNS is broken internally?  This seems absurd, but I’m
>> not sure it’s any less absurd than other theories.
>>
>> -Adam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *CBB - Jay Fuller
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 04, 2021 3:13 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < af@af.afmug.com
>> >
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] facebook outage
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> that is insane.  so the registrar being down or "going out of business"
>> is likely the cause?
>>
>> who would have thunk...
>>
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>>
>> *From:* Steve Jones 
>>
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>>
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 4, 2021 1:41 PM
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] facebook outage
>>
>>
>>
>> the downdetector comments are awful
>>
>>
>>
>> it looks like 9am CST some DNS registrar updates were made.
>> registrasafe.com seems to have disappeared from the world.
>>
>>
>>
>> Not sure what happens if your registrar that you own disappears. ICANN
>> isnt likely to just hand keys over, even for facebook, its not like
>> theyre microsoft or anything
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 1:32 PM CBB - Jay Fuller <
>> par...@cyberbroadband.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> i heard office productivity spiked some 45% today.  ha ha
>>
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>>
>> *From:* Chuck McCown via AF 
>>
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>>
>> *Cc:* Chuck McCown 
>>
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 4, 2021 1:24 PM
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] facebook outage
>>
>>
>>
>> Machinery Trader got taken down by ransomware too.  Most likely a
>> coincidence.  Wouldn’t that be rich if FB got taken down by ransomware...
>>
>>
>>
>> With as many datacenters they have, this must be a CDN/router level
>> attack, wouldn’t you think?
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* CBB - Jay Fuller
>>
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 4, 2021 12:17 PM
>>
>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] facebook outage
>>
>>
>>
>> at least my have my old reliable AFMUG
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>>
>> *From:* CBB - Jay Fuller
>>
>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>>
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 4, 2021 1:13 PM
>>
>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] facebook outage
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> anyone else feeling alone and isolated without facebook?  I need my safe
>> space (no, not myspace) back.
>>
>>
>>
>> babaahahah.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>> --
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>> --
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>> --
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
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> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] facebook outage

[Mathew Howard]

Definitely!

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 2:39 PM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> you think it was the boogaloo bois? I think it was them, its always them
>
> On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 2:29 PM Mathew Howard  wrote:
>
>> The theory that Facebook got infiltrated and pulled the plug themselves
>> seems most probable.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 2:19 PM  wrote:
>>
>>> Is this registrar idea merely speculation or do we have a source for
>>> that?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I can’t reach their DNS servers.  I do have routes to the networks their
>>> DNS servers are on, and tracert stops in one of their /16’s.
>>>
>>> Seems like their DNS is broken internally?  This seems absurd, but I’m
>>> not sure it’s any less absurd than other theories.
>>>
>>> -Adam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *CBB - Jay Fuller
>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 04, 2021 3:13 PM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] facebook outage
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> that is insane.  so the registrar being down or "going out of business"
>>> is likely the cause?
>>>
>>> who would have thunk...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>>
>>> *From:* Steve Jones 
>>>
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>>>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 4, 2021 1:41 PM
>>>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] facebook outage
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> the downdetector comments are awful
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> it looks like 9am CST some DNS registrar updates were made.
>>> registrasafe.com seems to have disappeared from the world.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Not sure what happens if your registrar that you own disappears. ICANN
>>> isnt likely to just hand keys over, even for facebook, its not like
>>> theyre microsoft or anything
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 1:32 PM CBB - Jay Fuller <
>>> par...@cyberbroadband.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> i heard office productivity spiked some 45% today.  ha ha
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>>
>>> *From:* Chuck McCown via AF 
>>>
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>>>
>>> *Cc:* Chuck McCown 
>>>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 4, 2021 1:24 PM
>>>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] facebook outage
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Machinery Trader got taken down by ransomware too.  Most likely a
>>> coincidence.  Wouldn’t that be rich if FB got taken down by ransomware...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> With as many datacenters they have, this must be a CDN/router level
>>> attack, wouldn’t you think?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* CBB - Jay Fuller
>>>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 4, 2021 12:17 PM
>>>
>>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>>>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] facebook outage
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> at least my have my old reliable AFMUG
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>>
>>> *From:* CBB - Jay Fuller
>>>
>>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>>>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 4, 2021 1:13 PM
>>>
>>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] facebook outage
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> anyone else feeling alone and isolated without facebook?  I need my safe
>>> space (no, not myspace) back.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> babaahahah.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>> --
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] facebook outage

[Mathew Howard]

The theory that Facebook got infiltrated and pulled the plug themselves
seems most probable.

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 2:19 PM  wrote:

> Is this registrar idea merely speculation or do we have a source for that?
>
>
>
> I can’t reach their DNS servers.  I do have routes to the networks their
> DNS servers are on, and tracert stops in one of their /16’s.
>
> Seems like their DNS is broken internally?  This seems absurd, but I’m not
> sure it’s any less absurd than other theories.
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *CBB - Jay Fuller
> *Sent:* Monday, October 04, 2021 3:13 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] facebook outage
>
>
>
>
>
> that is insane.  so the registrar being down or "going out of business" is
> likely the cause?
>
> who would have thunk...
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
>
> *From:* Steve Jones 
>
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 4, 2021 1:41 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] facebook outage
>
>
>
> the downdetector comments are awful
>
>
>
> it looks like 9am CST some DNS registrar updates were made.
> registrasafe.com seems to have disappeared from the world.
>
>
>
> Not sure what happens if your registrar that you own disappears. ICANN
> isnt likely to just hand keys over, even for facebook, its not like
> theyre microsoft or anything
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 1:32 PM CBB - Jay Fuller 
> wrote:
>
>
>
> i heard office productivity spiked some 45% today.  ha ha
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
>
> *From:* Chuck McCown via AF 
>
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>
> *Cc:* Chuck McCown 
>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 4, 2021 1:24 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] facebook outage
>
>
>
> Machinery Trader got taken down by ransomware too.  Most likely a
> coincidence.  Wouldn’t that be rich if FB got taken down by ransomware...
>
>
>
> With as many datacenters they have, this must be a CDN/router level
> attack, wouldn’t you think?
>
>
>
> *From:* CBB - Jay Fuller
>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 4, 2021 12:17 PM
>
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] facebook outage
>
>
>
> at least my have my old reliable AFMUG
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
>
> *From:* CBB - Jay Fuller
>
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 4, 2021 1:13 PM
>
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] facebook outage
>
>
>
>
>
> anyone else feeling alone and isolated without facebook?  I need my safe
> space (no, not myspace) back.
>
>
>
> babaahahah.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> --
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
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http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] ***SPAM*** interesting...we installed several laser links in the 1990s...

[Mathew Howard]

The article mentioned that the town on the other side of the river was
using a 400km fiber line that goes around the river (I would imagine it
goes to a lot of other places too...), so yeah, I'd say it's connecting two
existing ISPs

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 3:17 PM Nate Burke  wrote:

> So 700TB over 20 Days, that's about 4gb/s average.  I wonder what these
> are feeding on each end, that that amount of traffic suddenly turned on, or
> if it's literally extending an ISP on each end.  Or is this just test
> traffic.
>
> On 9/20/2021 3:03 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
>
> Yeah... other than potentially being capable of more bandwidth, and maybe
> getting around some regulations, I can't imagine what advantage there would
> be.
>
> On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 2:41 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
>> There's a whiz-bang-wow factor for free space optics.  I'm not sure if
>> there's any real technical advantage over millimeter wave though.  None
>> that I'm currently aware of.
>>
>> -Adam
>>
>>
>> On 9/20/2021 12:12 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
>>
>> Seems to me like you're almost always going to be a lot better off just
>> using 80ghz (or even 60ghz, depending on requirements)... I guess if you
>> need more than 10Gbps it might make sense, but otherwise, it seems like
>> playing with this stuff is just going to cause a lot of unnecessary
>> headaches.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 10:13 AM Steve Jones 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I hope its come along way. we did some and it was awful. auto alignment
>>> had to be turned of because it would sometimes just start adjusting and go
>>> out of alignment like it was having a seizure. lens fogging was awful. We
>>> had one where it would take a courthouse down roughly the same time every
>>> day, finally tracked it to sun reflection off an aluminum parapet. i had to
>>> haul a truck tarp up onto the roof to cover the parapet to prove it. The
>>> only place for lasers is in flexible glass
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 9:16 AM Jaime Solorza <
>>> losguyswirel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yep...they tried one from a bank building in El Paso to Juarez back in
>>>> the late 1990s...22 story building moved too much...we ended up installing
>>>> a 23Ghz link but from another location.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 6:24 AM Brian Webster <
>>>> i...@wirelessmapping.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I would think now it would be easier to mount the laser in a gyro
>>>>> stabilized gimbal to account for the movement. In the 90’s that technology
>>>>> was not affordable. Image stabilizing cameras exist, gyro stabilized RC
>>>>> helicopters and drones are commonplace.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>
>>>>> Brian Webster
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>www.wirelessmapping.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* AF [mailto: af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On
>>>>> Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, September 17, 2021 8:16 PM
>>>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>>>> *Cc:* Chuck McCown
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ***SPAM*** interesting...we installed several
>>>>> laser links in the 1990s...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I did too.  Mexico City.  E1 data rate.  High rise buildings.
>>>>> Building movement was a problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 17, 2021, at 5:12 PM, Jaime Solorza <
>>>>> losguyswirel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://news.google.com/articles/CBMicGh0dHBzOi8vYXJzdGVjaG5pY2EuY29tL2dhZGdldHMvMjAyMS8wOS9hbHBoYWJldHMtbGFzZXItaW50ZXJuZXQtc3lzdGVtLWhhcy1zZW50LTcwMHRiLW9mLWRhdGEtd2l0aC05OS05LXVwdGltZS_SAXZodHRwczovL2Fyc3RlY2huaWNhLmNvbS9nYWRnZXRzLzIwMjEvMDkvYWxwaGFiZXRzLWxhc2VyLWludGVybmV0LXN5c3RlbS1oYXMtc2VudC03MDB0Yi1vZi1kYXRhLXdpdGgtOTktOS11cHRpbWUvP2FtcD0x?hl=en-US=US=US%3Aen>
>>>>> https://news.google.com/articles/CBMicGh0dHBzOi8vYXJzdGVjaG5pY2EuY29tL2dhZGdldHMvMjAyMS8wOS9hbHBoYWJldHMtbGFzZXItaW50ZXJuZXQtc3lzdGVtLWhhcy1zZW50LTcwMHRiLW9mLWRhdGEtd2l0aC05OS05LXVwdGltZS_SAXZodHRwczovL2Fyc3RlY2huaWNhLmNvbS9nYWRnZXRzLzIwMjEvMDkvYWxwaGFiZXRzLWxhc2VyLWludGVybmV0LXN5c3RlbS1oYXMtc2VudC03MDB0Yi1vZi1kYXRhLXdpdGgtOTktOS11cHRpbWUvP2FtcD0x?hl=en-US=US=US%3Aen
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> AF mailing list
>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> AF mailing list
>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> AF mailing list
>>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] ***SPAM*** interesting...we installed several laser links in the 1990s...

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah... other than potentially being capable of more bandwidth, and maybe
getting around some regulations, I can't imagine what advantage there would
be.

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 2:41 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:

> There's a whiz-bang-wow factor for free space optics.  I'm not sure if
> there's any real technical advantage over millimeter wave though.  None
> that I'm currently aware of.
>
> -Adam
>
>
> On 9/20/2021 12:12 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
>
> Seems to me like you're almost always going to be a lot better off just
> using 80ghz (or even 60ghz, depending on requirements)... I guess if you
> need more than 10Gbps it might make sense, but otherwise, it seems like
> playing with this stuff is just going to cause a lot of unnecessary
> headaches.
>
> On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 10:13 AM Steve Jones 
> wrote:
>
>> I hope its come along way. we did some and it was awful. auto alignment
>> had to be turned of because it would sometimes just start adjusting and go
>> out of alignment like it was having a seizure. lens fogging was awful. We
>> had one where it would take a courthouse down roughly the same time every
>> day, finally tracked it to sun reflection off an aluminum parapet. i had to
>> haul a truck tarp up onto the roof to cover the parapet to prove it. The
>> only place for lasers is in flexible glass
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 9:16 AM Jaime Solorza 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yep...they tried one from a bank building in El Paso to Juarez back in
>>> the late 1990s...22 story building moved too much...we ended up installing
>>> a 23Ghz link but from another location.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 6:24 AM Brian Webster 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would think now it would be easier to mount the laser in a gyro
>>>> stabilized gimbal to account for the movement. In the 90’s that technology
>>>> was not affordable. Image stabilizing cameras exist, gyro stabilized RC
>>>> helicopters and drones are commonplace.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>>
>>>> Brian Webster
>>>>
>>>> www.wirelessmapping.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Chuck
>>>> McCown via AF
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, September 17, 2021 8:16 PM
>>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>>> *Cc:* Chuck McCown
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ***SPAM*** interesting...we installed several
>>>> laser links in the 1990s...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I did too.  Mexico City.  E1 data rate.  High rise buildings.  Building
>>>> movement was a problem.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 17, 2021, at 5:12 PM, Jaime Solorza 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://news.google.com/articles/CBMicGh0dHBzOi8vYXJzdGVjaG5pY2EuY29tL2dhZGdldHMvMjAyMS8wOS9hbHBoYWJldHMtbGFzZXItaW50ZXJuZXQtc3lzdGVtLWhhcy1zZW50LTcwMHRiLW9mLWRhdGEtd2l0aC05OS05LXVwdGltZS_SAXZodHRwczovL2Fyc3RlY2huaWNhLmNvbS9nYWRnZXRzLzIwMjEvMDkvYWxwaGFiZXRzLWxhc2VyLWludGVybmV0LXN5c3RlbS1oYXMtc2VudC03MDB0Yi1vZi1kYXRhLXdpdGgtOTktOS11cHRpbWUvP2FtcD0x?hl=en-US=US=US%3Aen
>>>>
>>>>
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