CS: Misc-Police Corruption Website
From: Norman Bassett, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi! The UK Police Corruption Website has relocated offshore and is now at: http://www.policecorruption.org Looks interesting. I think IG would meet his Waterloo there... Regards Norman Bassett drakenfels.org Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IG, Look what I dug up... The mysterious missing page! This is ancient history, though no-one else got it all. I can't send it you on my revoked FAC because as you know, they aren't returned to the previous owner, and besides, I don't have your address. --- Turf Fraud Scandal or Trial of the Detectives This notorious corruption scandal in 1877 resulted in the reorganisation of the Detective Branch into the C.I.D. A rich Parisian woman, Madame de Goncourt, became the victim of two English confidence tricksters, Harry Benson and William Kurr, who persuaded her to part with รบ30,000. Scotland Yard were called in, and Superintendent Adolphus Williamson employed a bright multi-lingual Chief Inspector, Nathaniel Druscovich, to bring Benson back from Amsterdam where he had been arrested. Druscovich seemed to find the job surprisingly difficult. Sergeant John Littlechild and two others were sent to catch Kurr, and were repeatedly foiled by his moving on just as they expected to arrest him. Eventually they caught up with him in Edinburgh, and he stood trial and was convicted. Scotland Yard began to wonder why the arrests had been so difficult, and Benson and Kurr began to explain. Inspector John Meiklejohn, a deeply corrupt character, had been in Kurr's pay since 1873, accepting large sums of money to tip him off when his crimes were about to lead to his arrest. Meiklejohn had offered Druscovich the opportunity to borrow money from Kurr to repay his brother's debts, and thus Druscovich was also implicated, as was Chief Inspector Palmer, who appears to have been duped into going along with his colleagues. The Trial in Progress at the Old Bailey The three were sentenced to two years in prison, and the scandal nearly wrecked Williamson's career. Although his integrity was unquestioned, his supervision of subordinates seemed wanting, and following the Committee of Inquiry, Howard Vincent was given the opportunity to reshape the Detective Branch. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption - Correction
From: Norman Bassett, [EMAIL PROTECTED] A CORRECTION to my last posting. The Peace of Brest-Litovsk was signed on 3 March 1918, not in 1917 as I stated. The peace negotiations started after the Bolshevik Revolution of 17 November 1917 (it's called the "October" Revolution because that was the Russian-style date). You can look at the actual thing and associated documents on: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/forrel/1918rv1/blmenu.htm It's interesting that the Blackwell Report (available on cybershooters.org) which was the precursor to the 1920 Firearms Act, was originally commissioned on 27 February 1918, surely in full knowledge of the general progress of the war and of the Brest-Litovsk peace negotiations' possible impact on it, and delivered on 15 November 1918. There are FACTS available from which to argue and they are accessible with a little trouble taken. I think the general exchange of opinions on police corruption is healthy, but not necessarily getting us anywhere because it's more of an argument than a factually-supported debate. To comprehend the full and comprehensive horror of the situation requires a list of newspaper and government reports on the various incidents involved. IG is fighting his corner doggedly, but I don't think there's a great deal to support some of his contentions g! and I think the history of the police force also resembles a pit of snakes covered with a heaving blanket. When you think about it, police corruption is a sub-set of a more general British government corruption. Regards Norman Bassett drakenfels.org Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: Norman Bassett, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is from IG to me privately and posted here with his permission: "NB: The Great War's history IS available, but not very easily. Part of it is the UK police force's work as government bully-boys strike-breaking from mid-1916 to the end of the Great War. IG: Yes, and the result was the Police strike of 1919, after false promises by the government about pay and pensions went unmet. This in turn led to the creation by statute of the Police Federation which exists today under the same rules as prevailed then. Then there was the 70's and 80's and 90's where the Police were used as strike breakers. 1977.Firemans strike. Resulted in the Edmund Davies enquiry. Huge pay rise to stop officers claiming income support, etc. 1984.Miners strike. Resulted in better conditions of service. 1990's...Prison officers and ambulance strikes. Resulted in a kick in the gonads in the Sheehey report, the withdrawal of rent allowance and the introduction of performance related pay. (not yet implemented, but on the way) Worsened conditions of service, no allowances, administrative dismissal, reduction of the burden of proof at discipline hearings, no access to industrial or employment tribunals, half pay if on the sick for 6 months, no pay if over 12 months, never mind why, but they wont pension and its a discipline offence to have 2 incomes..etc etc. SO...the cynic would say that successive governments have used the police to achieve their objectives and have now abandoned us as worthless." NB: Police corruption is a part of a more general political corruption and that needs to be borne in mind when examining the political side of police activities. I think that a simple LIST of what's being complained about and what incidents and government decisions have led us to today's situation would be very helpful. We tend to do a lot of referring to incidents like the Stephen Waldorf "yellow mini" shooting without a clear idea of what was involved. Regards Norman Bassett drakenfels.org Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yes, you are right! Bugger. IG Yes I believe that was covered in the Vagrancy Acts as well (or at least display of the equipment) :-) Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Within 1000 yards of my office there has been one murder, two attempted murders (one of whom was a WPC), one armed robbery, at least two shootings and more assaults that I care to mention. Within a mile there was a smack dealer who was ambushed by two guys with sawn-off shotguns and murdered only a few months ago. Is that all? A quiet sleep little village by comparison to where I work. Why, only yesterday there was an elderly woman parked on a double yellow line. Mind you, she did have a disabled badge on her windscreen. 4 of us held her up with CS, then gave her a ticket EACH. That was loads of points for us on our performance indicator charts. Because she had a badge, she will plead not guilty and go to court. When we have to attend, it will be EXTRA points on our appraisals! Thats a whole months worth of armed robbers! Anyone familiar with the forms we give out to people who we search? Under PACE? There is a box titled 'reason for search'. Common reason put down by disgruntled cops is ''P.I." P.I.= Performance Indicator. In other words, a mark on the league table that keeps the boss off your back. IG of Dock Green Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] What? Are you implying that we have a law regulating the MISUSE of drugs? etc Oh God. Read the whole of that post please. The reason for mentioning that list of laws was to illustrate that there are more laws to break nowadays, therefore crime figures are bound to be higher. How on earth even you can turn that around is quite fascinating but boring.. IG Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ya know, IG? Maybe if you cops were to have Friday night ho-down, and 'let it all hang out', you chaps would gain a sense of humor! Just a suggestion . . . Whats a ho-down? Do we need banjo players? IG Steve, IG, Well, actually, it is spelled 'hoedown'. It is a party for square dancing, and other more earthy pursuits. And, yes, the banjo is definitely an instrument that is found at one, including an empty earthen ware jug (the moonshine kind), a scrubbing rack, a fiddle -- or violin, a guitar, one or another of percussion instruments, a really good sense of humor, and most definitely some corn squeez'ins (white lightening). Yeee Haw! -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ah, there we go, we can have a Christmas Cybershooters' safari, lead by IG as the Professional Hunter, with his advice for the most suitable gun and load; the selected game being: drug dealer; crackhead; armed robber; lethal-joyrider; hot burglar; and armed loony (including any authorised person who has thrown a mental shoe). Top prize: to be mounted and stuffed by some of the iffier inmates of your elected maximun security prison. Tim. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-police corruption
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] IG would the police support a club these days if the applicant was from an ethnic minority and in the clubs opinion not suitable? Good question. I would like to think that would be the case. As I said..I would LIKE to think The police service is so bloody PC now, the slightest opportunity to show that they arent racist is jumped on and publicised for all to see. It actually has th eopposite effect in th eeyes of most people I speak to. So, I would like to think that action would be taken.in my force I am pretty sure it would be. Can't speak for elsewhere tho. IG Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] IG appears to be behaving in a way similar to the tobacco companies - looking at the evidence and flatly denying its existence. The tobacco companies deny reality for financial reasons and so do the police. --snip-- Steve, Norman, Neglecting Steve's remarks: Come now, Norman, you are comparing apples and clams. In IG's defence (as if he needed that), the tobacco companies and the tobacco users deserve each other. Anybody who consumes that stuff (and I did for 15 years), in the face of all of the press and evidence which pretty much covered all the ground that needed to be covered regarding health hazards, in quantities that are surely to be deleterious to one's health, deserves to be ignored, and disregarded as a fool. I smoked for 15 years, from the time I was 15 until the age of 30. Amazing (isn't it?) how long it takes one to learn a lesson? Smoking by itself, once or twice a day (which was the usual back a long time ago) isn't considered deleterious to the healthy person. The Ad men did us in by inducing the young and impressionable to go 'whole hog' and do it all the time. Maybe we should sue the ad agencies? I'll let IG answer the other stuff. In all due respect to yourself, the matter is that as Steve has stated. There are some things which are quite beyond one's control. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: Jonathan Spencer, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Prior to 1950 something there was no offence of carry an offensive weapon Minor nit, Ian. Surely you remember the Vagrancy Act of 1824 (or was it 1842)? --Jonathan Spencer, firearms examiner "Justice is open to everybody in the same way as the Ritz Hotel." Judge Sturgess, 22 July 1928 Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oh, the good old days. When men could go shooting whilst high as a kite on opium, get pissed, carry a flick knife and screw a bird without being bankrupted by the government, then have a fight on the way home. All in the same day as well. Sheer bliss. What a beautiful society. I would like to thank you though for starting this discussion, whatever your motives or whether officially sanctioned or not. Do me a favour. I risk my bloody pension posting on here. IG -- What statistics there are do show a much lower level of crime prior to the Firearms Act 1920, with firearms at least. Statistics for London are reasonably comprehensive. Steve. Steve, IG, S, you guys really did have lots of fun, back in Merry ol' England, didn't ya? grin It was never that way here in the US, even when we wuz a pack of recalcitrant colonies! We were too sexually represses for that kind of fun. Of course, that was back when you guys REALLY knew how to let your hair down chuckle, snort! guffaw!. Ya know, IG? Maybe if you cops were to have Friday night ho-down, and 'let it all hang out', you chaps would gain a sense of humor! Just a suggestion . . . -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oh, the good old days. When men could go shooting whilst high as a kite on opium, get pissed, carry a flick knife and screw a bird without being bankrupted by the government, then have a fight on the way home. All in the same day as well. Sheer bliss. You've been to Rose Hill and Barton of a weekend, then? G Tim -- Actually I thought his comment about Gotham City was more amusing, he must have a beat in a fairly safe area of the country, I suggest he comes to Walsall on a Saturday night, or Blakenhall or Lozells. Within 1000 yards of my office there has been one murder, two attempted murders (one of whom was a WPC), one armed robbery, at least two shootings and more assaults that I care to mention. Within a mile there was a smack dealer who was ambushed by two guys with sawn-off shotguns and murdered only a few months ago. Welcome to the planet Walsolia, inhabited by beings who breath carbon monoxide, live on heroin, and procreate in the Inland Revenue building's car park. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ya know, IG? Maybe if you cops were to have Friday night ho-down, and 'let it all hang out', you chaps would gain a sense of humor! Just a suggestion . . . Whats a ho-down? Do we need banjo players? IG Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-police corruption
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have had members removed from Clubs of which I have been a member, because they were unsafe or became unsuitable in our opinion. Some joined other clubs but most just left the sport. One was a little embarrassing as the member concerned was sacked from his job (by another member), became unsafe in both attitude and due to a medical condition he did not take care of enough, and his attitude became both unreasonable and at times offensive. His certificate was subsequently revoked. The real embarrassment was his employment as a Special Constable when he first joined the club, they later dismissed him and it was the same force that subsequently revoked his FAC. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I should also point out that prior to 1922 (can stand being corrected if the date is wrong) british subjects did have unrestricted access to firearms and carried them for self defence, can you point to any research that shows that this was a problem (except to criminals and governments of course)? I should also like to point out that prior to 1930something or other, there was no law regulating the misuse of drugs. Prior to 1970..or thereabouts.there was no breathalyser law. Prior to 1968 there was no offence of burglary or twoc Prior to 1950 something there was no offence of carry an offensive weapon Prior to 1312 or whatever there was no such thing as a breach of the peace Prior to 1993 there was no Child Support Agency Prior to 1960 something we weren't in the EEC In the1700s we had the South Sea bubble, tulip mania and a royal family who liked to wear tights (the men that is) Oh, the good old days. When men could go shooting whilst high as a kite on opium, get pissed, carry a flick knife and screw a bird without being bankrupted by the government, then have a fight on the way home. All in the same day as well. Sheer bliss. What a beautiful society. I would like to thank you though for starting this discussion, whatever your motives or whether officially sanctioned or not. Do me a favour. I risk my bloody pension posting on here. IG -- What statistics there are do show a much lower level of crime prior to the Firearms Act 1920, with firearms at least. Statistics for London are reasonably comprehensive. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I doubt the Metropolitan Police is relaxing its rules to the extent that they would accept people who had actually served prison terms, and cetainly not three years or more, or any crimes of violence sufficient for a prison term. Having only seen the press coverage of this I do wonder what offences the Met would accept. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] . I ask on the basis that there are offences which would disqualify one from holding an FAC or SGC. Would the same offences be allowed by applicant to the Police ranks? From the limited reporting of this I have seen one would have to say yes. I think that theft is one of the crimes that the met will accept you after having comitted an offence that could potentially debar you from holding an FAC for life. So theoretically you could be arrested by an armed Met cop who could never legally hold an FAC. Jonathan Laws. Steve, Jonathan, A critique of our times? When the of citizens in a nation are so scandalized by crime, that the remaining number of those qualified to serve in an office of public trust is reduced such that the 'criminal class' must be appealed to in order to sustain the requisite numbers of the 'enforcement class'. How interesting. -- Who wants to be a copper, all those nasty shooters criticising you etc.G Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: Norman Bassett, [EMAIL PROTECTED] The last count the London Evening Standard did there were an estimated 300 murderers walking the streets of London who'd never been convicted. You can estimate the relative rates of conviction for other crimes. The London police are to that extent ineffective and you can reasonably estimate the same situation exists around the country. Various Cybershooters have pointed out the very many cases of police corruption reported in the media. IG appears to be behaving in a way similar to the tobacco companies - looking at the evidence and flatly denying its existence. The tobacco companies deny reality for financial reasons and so do the police. The total number of demented mass-murderers with firearms in the UK in the past century is TWO. Ryan should have been stopped by the police after his first murder and wasn't. Hamilton appears to have been an active paedophile for over 20 years - that means he was a serial rapist of little boys, it's not just a personal preference - and the police certainly didn't stop him. IG's making a career of estimating people's "dangerousness" with firearms is clearly an antisocial waste of public money. The concept is an invention of the police force for the purposes of ensuring continued well-paid employment. What actually kills and harms people and hence can reasonably be said to be dangerous is listed in the Stationery Office's publication giving annual deaths by cause and being deliberately killed with a gun by someone else is a very long way down the list. IG should face the fact that he's being personally dishonest in his arguments and that the UK police force are ineffective and generally corrupt in a number of ways and that the "there are always a few rotten apples in a large organisation like the police" line of argument is NONSENSE. Their present influence in our society is pernicious and things need changing. Regards Norman Bassett drakenfels.org -- Just one correction, there have been a lot of other mass murderers this century who used firearms in this country, they just haven't gotten the press of Ryan and Hamilton. One of them was Barry Williams who was briefly a member of my club (until he was turfed out). He shot dead five people and was committed under the Mental Health Act for about 22 years afterwards. There was another nutter who stole his father's shotgun and went on a rampage shooting 17 people in 1990 in Monkseaton, he only managed to kill one though. He is currently committed to a secure hospital. Also there was another nutter who shot dead his family (I think four or five of them) in 1969 with an SLR (he had an FAC for). He was also committed under the Mental Health Act until about 1993. When he got out he was okay for awhile but someone found out about his past and he got depressed, borrowed a neighbour's shotgun and committed suicide. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-police corruption
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Firstly, this all kicked off with your statement that 5% of people who have FAC's are unpleasant, objectionable and potentially dangerous. It had nothing to do with those who had applied and been refused or have in your view applied for "spurious variations". etc etc I repeat. You only see what you want to see. A small number of people. Do I? This is what you originally posted "Having worked with licensing for some years, I now realise the amount of unpleasant, potentially dangerous and thoroughly objectionable people that own firearms certificates. Before I hear the howls of protest, let me state that these form about 5% of the total in the area that I work." This quite clearly states that 5% of the FAC holders in your area are "unpleasant, potentially dangerous and thoroughly objectionable people". Your words, not a case of me reading anything that isn't actually there. I make NO aplology for being outspoken. Neither do I. Look at the responses yourself. One moment you are slagging the government off for everything, the next you are saying that the laws should be applied. If the Laws were applied properly the Government wouldn't need to introduce new ones to persecute shooters with. You dont really know what side of the fence you want to sit on. I do, quite clearly. I stand by the fact that 5% of the people I deal with are unpleasant, objectionable or potentially dangerous. Often all 3. But you didn't say 5% of the people you deal with, you said 5% of FAC holders, thats not the same thing. The law requires me to make a judgement. Like it or not, that is the way of things in this country. Accepted, there is total freedom for people to be objectionable and unpleasant and still own a firearm. Not so for the potentially dangerous. The point is this. Numbers do not matter. But numbers *do* matter, 0.2% is a world away from 5% There are people who should not, in any circumstances, be allowed near a firearm. Agreed! I do my job and try to ensure that this is the case. I make no apologies for doing so. After all, even Steve tells me that this is the job of the police, so I don't expect any criticism for ensuring the safety of the public. The law requires evidence before a revocation is made. Not merely 3rd hand hearsay. It is very difficult to get that evidence. I thought that appeals against revocation or renewal or grant could indeed take into account hearsay? Does anyone know any person who has justifiably had a cert revoked? As I have pointed out, Yes. I wager that no one will admit it here! (as it seems the overiding view is that anyone should be able to carry anything they want at any time and at any place.) No it isn't, you are being overly dramatic here. Jonathan Laws. -- Section 44 appeals can take into account hearsay and the police in my appeals used a hell of a lot of it. Judges aren't too impressed when they do though. In fact, the police don't even have to tell you why your certificate was revoked, and you can turn up to court not having the vaguest idea what is going on. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] On the basis that IG feels free to pass judgement on the character of members of the shooting fraternity, I feel just as free to state that he is just a "wind-up artist", bent on provoking hasty and unwise comments by the use of provocative statements. I cannot understand why subscribers rise to the bait like ravenous trout and get hooked in the process. Well, you would wouldnt you. This is a constantly recurring one as well, when someone doesnt like a few unpalatable home truths, this is a convenient little argument to throw out. If yopu think anyone has been hooked, then read the posts again. It is pretty fair to say that all the subscribers here are more than capable of sticking up for their beliefs. I am pleased, however, with your agreement that many of the comments are hasty and unwise. An ally at last! People with convictions joining the met: I am not aware of the type of convictions that are under consideration. The generla school of thought in my area is that it is a publicity stunt to tell the HO how short of manpower the met is. If the offences involve dishonesty or violence, I do not know of any of my colleagues who would share the same air. So the answer to your question is, I suppose, I dont know but I dont think so. If you or anyone else gets wound up by that or make a hast or unwise response, pass me my hat and a knife and fork. IG Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police corruption
From: "Tom Charnock", [EMAIL PROTECTED] IG I have followed your lengthy and mountainous volumes of comment on this thread. Like another poster I have to wonder if this is just to incite responses, wind-ups, or as the US say, "trolling". As you declare your position then perhaps not the latter. However, you go to great lengths spouting about the Law, the Police and the shooting person. You have not forgotten that you are supposed to serve the public as (Star Treck style) a prime directive. You acknowledge that the actions taken by the police in respect of the Chinese visitors demonstrators was wrong. But that police action WAS against the public interest, their right to peaceable demonstration. My simple question was, "at what point do you, and fellow police officers, draw the line in over-riding the public rights". I guess from your weasel worded reply that there is no line, that whatever you are told to do, you, and your fellow officers will obey. If nothing else worries ordinary people in this country, then that blind obedience to Orders from above should. I expect a weasel worded, "but it's my duty to do as I am told" reply (my dad heard that style of response 50 odd years ago). Of course some bright spark from a behavioural science university could do a "controlled experiment" issuing randomly chosen police with electric shock machines to be applied to randomly picked public and see how far they would go with Orders from above. I have a feeling that in today's society, the option to refuse would not feature as the Officer would lose pension, salary etc. Why are there Defence Lawyers? well to pursue actions taken by police officers that they themselves understand are wrong, but are Orders from above and need to be carried out, never mind the publics rights. If you agree that there are limits, then how are they defined, by each Officers personal opinion? how he/she feels on THAT day? arbitrary to say the least. In one of your threads you ask as to what are the parameters of acceptable crimes that are OK for people to hold a FAC / SAC. Of course, the repost to this is to ask the Police Officers, just how far do you accept orders, before you say NO? Surely you have some sort of guidelines from your Federation on this? If so, what did they say about the Chinese demonstrators and the wrongful police action against them? I guess NOTHING as it was only a "small personal infringement of freedom". A step along a road to where??? Tom C PS for the "file" I have always believed in the death penalty for murder, nothing to do with if it was guns used. Just based upon just the Bible. And yes I have drawn a line, in business, it lost me my job and a six figure salary 10 years ago, but it was on a point of belief. Old fashioned? Yes, but to my personal standard. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-police corruption
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Does anyone know any person who has justifiably had a cert revoked? I wager that no one will admit it here! (as it seems the overiding view is that anyone should be able to carry anything they want at any time and at any place.) It would be a fine line between whether the FAC lapsed, or whether it was revoked, but the person chucked out by a club I belong to no longer has it as far as I know. With a bit of effort, I could find out for sure, or IG could contact me off list and use his resources to do so. The person concerned seemed reasonable enough to start with - a bit exuberant perhaps - but he took a couple of years to cause the club major concern. Tim Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
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From: "Tom Charnock", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Surely the most blatant use of the Police to execute political "whims" was their arresting and removing from the streets the peaceable, placard carrying, protesters against the Chinese "Head Mans" visit in the last year (sorry not got his name or exact date). Quite agree, it was appaling and embarassing to see it. Some things are indefensible. IG I G If we assume that your thoughts on this may be held by other officers, then why was it executed? Does this mean that your fellow officers, if given ANY order, will follow it to the letter, irrespective of their thoughts as to it being un-reasonable action?? Where do YOU (and your fellow Officers) draw the line?? Tom C Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
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From: andrew, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well IG, it looks like your key board took a hammering over the weekend. I presume that you are one of the inteligentsia who think that anyone, under any circumstances, should be allowed to possess a firearm for any reason whatsoever. In other words, you appear to be in favour of total freedom from controls. Fine. I ,unfortunately, along with many other millions of people, do not share your views! Why do I need to be a member of any particular group if I have the view that people should be able to get on with their law abiding lives free from harassment from pointless legislation and the ignorant opinions of jobsworths? I have difficulty reconciling the fact that whereas I put up with all the BS connected with owning firearms legally the local drug dealers get no hassle at all over their firearms or how they use them! Not only didn't they lose their pistols in 1998, the law specially only prohibited legally owned small firearms, but the only time they do not carry their pistols is when they have a court appearance! The above also applies to members of northern Ireland terrorist organizations. Can you imagine the response to a request from an RUC firearms licensing officer to inspect the security of the various terrorist arms dumps. I did not call you a nazi did I! My point was that you are making personal judgements on people based on your own beliefs and experience at the time. Not so long ago and in a place not so far away your judgement as to what constitutes a good character would be very different to that that you have now. It is because of the unreliability of the judgements of individuals, no matter how well meaning, that we have a judicial process involving magistrates, judges and juries and the prosecution process is kept separate from the enforcement process. It is also why criminals have rights! If you were dealing with a criminal and you expressed your personal views about that persons character then the any prosecution could be seen as being seriously flawed. I also have trouble with the concept of "I trust you with this but not that" as steve experienced with variations for collecting. In my case I had a sec.1 shotgun that I was prohibited from using for clay pigeon shooting! I fully understood the law and the home office guidance but not only was I disturbed by the insane logic expressed by various officials but I was also deeply disturbed by the fact that they did not see anything wrong or bizarre about the situation. I also cannot see how you can apply this selective trust to just legally held firearms; do you remove the driving licences and cars from any of the victims of your personal crusade? How about if they have children; do you have them put into care? On the wall of my living room is a print of a classic western painting called "End of the Trail", the subject is a dying indian warrior on a dying pony. A visiting firearms enquiry officer was very disturbed that I had this picture as he didn't agree with the end-of-the-trail shooting disciplines that were appearing and he told me that he would seek to have the certificate of anybody taking part in these competitions revoked! Of course this was just his personal prejudice, sorry opinion. You ask if we know of any way to judge character, are you asking members of this list to get into denouncing shooters in the same way as the police in other authoritarian regimes use public denunciations of individuals and groups oppress those they don't agree with? I wouldn't dare to pass judgement on another persons character. If I did, give me a reason why I shouldn't start with you? Or do you only see yourself as the stone thrower? And I would be interested to if my views and the fact that I take the trouble to express them make me a fit person in your eyes. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] As for examples of iffy FAC holders, a club I belong to chucked one out some years back: - not a very responsible individual, who brought some unsavoury friends in on a few occasions and left large numbers of "inaccurately placed holes" after each visit. He was definitely one of the there's_something_about_him types, though this took some time to surface. When his membership expired and no attempt was made to renew, the local constabulary were asked to look after his pistols (which had been stored in the club's armoury) until such time as he might be deserving of their return. Tim Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
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From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I G If we assume that your thoughts on this may be held by other officers, then why was it executed? Does this mean that your fellow officers, if given ANY order, will follow it to the letter, irrespective of their thoughts as to it being un-reasonable action?? Where do YOU (and your fellow Officers) draw the line?? Tom C Why dont you ask them? I can only speak for myself. What do you want me to say? Its a nonsense question anyway, which invites the response: what is your position on the mass murderers who have used firearms to kill? We have had this debate before. IG Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I also have trouble with the concept of "I trust you with this but not that" as steve experienced with variations for collecting. In my case I had a sec.1 shotgun that I was prohibited from using for clay pigeon shooting! I fully understood the law and the home office guidance but not only was I disturbed by the insane logic expressed by various officials but I was also deeply disturbed by the fact that they did not see anything wrong or bizarre about the situation. I think we all find this situation rather silly. With the qualification that some people will not be physically capable of controlling some firearms, why shouldn't non-prohibited persons use any kind of firearm (or any other thing) if there is no additional danger resultant from it's use in suitable conditions? You ask if we know of any way to judge character, are you asking members of this list to get into denouncing shooters in the same way as the police in other authoritarian regimes use public denunciations of individuals and groups oppress those they don't agree with? I wouldn't dare to pass judgement on another persons character. If I did, give me a reason why I shouldn't start with you? Or do you only see yourself as the stone thrower? Personally, I have always regarded it as the duty of every club member to judge the character of fellow shooters to a limited extent. As an instructor it tends to happen automatically, watching the novice victims that you are prodding and poking into position, but up to the point where everybody is comfortable with everyone else, you will always be keeping an eye on your fellow shooters' behaviour, however subconsciously. Poor old IG just has to do it to complete strangers faster and more overtly... Tim -- Talking about variations, West Midlands Police allow me to possess 9mm ammunition for target shooting, but they won't let me collect it, because, wait for it, I have a gun in which I could use it, so it couldn't possibly be safe to let me collect it, because I might violate the condition by shooting it. Oh yes, I'm a really dodgy character I am. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I *know* its not rubbish, but I include applicants in this figure, as well as people who make spurious applications for variations, etc. (you know, when you get as far as checking out good reason for possession, you find there actually isnt one. Things like that). Firstly, this all kicked off with your statement that 5% of people who have FAC's are unpleasant, objectionable and potentially dangerous. It had nothing to do with those who had applied and been refused or have in your view applied for "spurious variations". Steve posted the figures for denied renewals and revoked cert's and it dosen't even approach 5%. Even if we assume that every one of the 340 revocations and refusals to renew were due to the reasons you state (and many of them are not) the figure is just under 0.2%. This again leads to the questions of a) if 5% of FAC holders really are unpleasant, objectionable and potentially dangerous then why are they not having their tickets pulled and b) why aren't they actually being dangerous with their guns? I mean 5% of 172,000 people is 8600 and if even 1% of them started acting dangerously we would have certainly have heard about it by now, in fact we wouldn't have any FAC's left to be arguing over. Jonathan Laws. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "Jim Franklin", [EMAIL PROTECTED] On the basis that IG feels free to pass judgement on the character of members of the shooting fraternity, I feel just as free to state that he is just a "wind-up artist", bent on provoking hasty and unwise comments by the use of provocative statements. I cannot understand why subscribers rise to the bait like ravenous trout and get hooked in the process. I would however like IG's comments on the prospects of the Police Service accepting into their ranks individuals who have committed offences. I ask on the basis that there are offences which would disqualify one from holding an FAC or SGC. Would the same offences be allowed by applicant to the Police ranks? Jim Franklin Orpington KENT. UK PGP key on request Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
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From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have difficulty reconciling the fact that whereas I put up with all the BS connected with owning firearms legally the local drug dealers get no hassle at all over their firearms or how they use them! This is a common thread, so lets deal with it. First of all, this is popular mythology that has come to be believed due to repetition amongst people with axes to grind. It is simply not true that drug dealers etc are allowed by the police to carry firearms without penalty. Before you repeat this mythology, take the time to do some research and find out the truth.
CS: Misc-police corruption
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] No, this figure of 5% is just pure rubbish and IG knows it, he probably just chose it because it sounds catchy. If it were correct I certainly wouldn't be associating with this type of person and if it were right I would be getting rather worried, and I'm not. Well, I'm sure you are in a better position than me to judge. I *know* its not rubbish, but I include applicants in this figure, as well as people who make spurious applications for variations, etc. (you know, when you get as far as checking out good reason for possession, you find there actually isnt one. Things like that). Not a question of sounding catchy. 90% would be much more catchy! I also doubt if you have the investigative resources open to me when enquiring about people. It might surprise you to learn about the background of some people that you think are perfectly OK. (I speak in general terms of course. I am sure all of your shooting associates are perfectly fine and upstanding citizens) IG -- So you're saying people who the police decide don't have "good reason" for a variation (but hold an FAC) fit your list of being dodgy? You must be joking. All that means is that they don't fit into whatever legal definition the HO have foisted upon your licensing dept. Otherwise they are probably perfectly respectable people. We've had long threads on here about collecting. I have been turned down twice for collector's authority, so by your definition I must be a dodgy person! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] "OK, it's late and I can't be bothered to check out exact numbers. But, lets think about it, how many FAC's are there in the Country, a figure of 200, 000 could be plucked out of the air. I don't know if it's right but I don't think there are any less than that. If 5% of FAC holders are not fit to hold said FAC's then that works out at 10,000 People. How many force areas are there, about 40? That means on average 240 people in every force area are not fit to hold FAC's, if this is the case why isn't IG doing something about it especially as he considers them to be "potentially dangerous"?" You just didn't listen did you? IG DID NOT SAY WHAT HE HAS OR HASN'T DONE about the so-called 5%, but you have seen fit to condemn him without knowing the full facts - THAT IS MY POINT!!!and that is how those BASTARDS in power operate - congratulations, you are now a fully paid-up member of the plonkers society. Chris (wondering why we have got ANY shooting in this country at all!!) Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] You just didn't listen did you? IG DID NOT SAY WHAT HE HAS OR HASN'T DONE about the so-called 5%, but you have seen fit to condemn him without knowing the full facts - THAT IS MY POINT!!!and that is how those BASTARDS in power operate - congratulations, you are now a fully paid-up member of the plonkers society. Chris But you are missing the main thrust of what I said. In the paragraph you quoted it was the figure of 5% I was questioning. I'm perfectly willing to accept that there may be a number of dodgy FAC holders, and I do know of a couple of very recent revocations, that im sure IG knows of, that if what I hear is correct are definatley warranted. I find a figure of 5% difficult to accept though as this ammounts to a rather large number of people in every force area. Given my own experiance of FAC holders and the number of dangerous or illegal acts that are perpetrated by them, I would have to say that the figure of 5% is definatley an gross over estimation. Jonathan Laws. -- In 1995 there were 172,150 FACs on issue and 740,200 SGCs on issue in Great Britain. There were 120 refusals to grant an FAC and 380 refusals to grant a SGC. There were 110 refusals to renew an FAC and 140 refusals to renew a SGC. There were 230 revocations of an FAC and 720 revocations of SGCs. Someone do the math please. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve, I do hope you realise I was defending shooters and you. I am disabled and can only manage prone rifle shooting (TR!) But just cos I can, t take part I still think we all have a right to choose what sport we take part in. As long as it is legal!!! Tina Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
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From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] It certainly doesn't inspire me with confidence to hear a copper saying he thinks he _knows_ certificate holders who aren't suitable to hold a certificate. Don't think, I know. And am dealing with it! Its a rolling process though.get one out of the way and another appears. IG Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
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From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] A Then why are you not reporting this and getting their certs pulled, especially if you are correct about the "..potentially dangerous..." ones? B even if what IG was saying had an element of truth to it, (a) it's more like 0.005% and (b) why hasn't he had their certificates revoked? A: I am. And have been doing so for twice as long as you have been shooting. Next question. B: See A. -- Well, if that's true I take back my earlier comments criticising you. 'Nuff said. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
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From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well done mate. Through your own ignorance you have just condemned the people who like to shoot practical rifle Where in heavens name did I mention practical rifle shooters? Bloody hell, man, I shoot practical rifle. Where did you get this from IG (Bewildered!) Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
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From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have to say I can't recall any SGC or FAC holders that worried me to the extent that I thought they were dangerous. Some of them are a bit strange in their own way, but I suppose we would come across as being a bit strange to your average punter. I can think of some RFDs who struck me as being dodgy though, literally all of whom are either now out of business, in prison, or currently facing prosecution. Are you separating RFD's and cert holders? Most RFD's that I know also have f/arm or SC's. The American murderer chappy was both. I suppose here is as good a place as any to point out the siege mentality that exists amongst many of the subscribers here. Shooters are beyond reproach, that is the common thread. Wake up. They aren't. Every time we go to revoke a certificate, there is blind support from one or other of the shooting organisations, who are rarely, if ever, prepared to consider the argument from the police side and who will push a lost cause as far as possible purely because they are anti police. The unpalatable truth needs to be pointed out. As well as dodgy coppers, as the popular but boring thread goes, there are dodgy shooters. Get used to reality! I see them regularly! And I do something about it, as well. It is insulting to suggest otherwise. The 5% I quote includes applications for FAC's and SC's that are refused. I have no reason to backpedal, it is quite simply a fact that lots of dodgy people are attracted to firearms! Why should that be a surprise to anyone? I make no apologies at all for quoting the types of people I consider to be unsuited. I was asked, and I told the person who asked. Boy, did it touch a nerve! Too close to home for some perhaps? IG -- As the lawyer who defended John Hinkley told me, everyone has a right to the best legal defence possible. That is their right, regardless of the crime they have committed. I am talking from personal experience, having never gone shooting with any of the RFDs I consider dodgy, I have no idea if they held FACs or SGCs although it is a reasonable assumption that they did. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
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From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have to agree with both points about trusting the police and trusting shooters! I would agree that about 5% are people who have "something" about them, an "air" of racism, sexism and unpleasantness. Of whom do I speak? Police and shooters in equal measure! Don't disagree with that one. Careful, though, Richard, you will be castigated, slagged and called nasty names for agreeing with the filth! Well, not totally agreeing, but agreeing a little bit. You'll start getting the hate mail soon! lol IG Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
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From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think IG has too is being a bit misleading when he says he is preventing the "wrong" sort of people from owning firearms. You are doing no such thing! Only preventing certain people, who you don't like, from LEGALLY owning firearms. All you are really achieving, if anything, is to force people who want to own a firearm (for whatever reason) to do so without putting up with the expense and hassle of jumping through your hoops etc etc. Once again, the paranoia has re-surfaced with a vengeance! I certainly never mentioned Hitler photos as you suggest. Once again, the disturbing trend towards obsession with Nazi's has surfaced.I am not even going to try to defend myself against things that I never said! Get a grip! (I have no problem with people worshipping Nazi's. I have no problem with devil worshippers. I even have no problem with shooters!) I presume that you are one of the inteligentsia who think that anyone, under any circumstances, should be allowed to possess a firearm for any reason whatsoever. In other words, you appear to be in favour of total freedom from controls. Fine. I ,unfortunately, along with many other millions of people, do not share your views! Do me a favour though, get your quotes right before you run away at the mouth. IG Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Come on guys - you are being totally unfair on IG - he has simply not stated WHAT he has done about the dodgy 5%, and you are assuming he has done nothing - don't condemn a man with insufficient information - that's how Tony Bliar and Jack Boot Straw operate OK, it's late and I can't be bothered to check out exact numbers. But, lets think about it, how many FAC's are there in the Country, a figure of 200, 000 could be plucked out of the air. I don't know if it's right but I don't think there are any less than that. If 5% of FAC holders are not fit to hold said FAC's then that works out at 10,000 People. How many force areas are there, about 40? That means on average 240 people in every force area are not fit to hold FAC's, if this is the case why isn't IG doing something about it especially as he considers them to be "potentially dangerous"? If you extrapolate the figure of 5% to include SGC holders(1.5-2M?), you have to conclude that there are thousands of psychocho's running around every force area, just waiting to perpetrate a massacre. If this is the case then it makes you wonder what the bloody hell people like IG are doing as far as administering the Firearms Acts goes? No, this figure of 5% is just pure rubbish and IG knows it, he probably just chose it because it sounds catchy. If it were correct I certainly wouldn't be associating with this type of person and if it were right I would be getting rather worried, and I'm not. j. -- It is plausible if you include all the people who are refused a grant or had a certificate revoked but the reality is that most of those are for technical reasons or health reasons rather than because they are dodgy people, I reckon, but the stats don't show that. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kisko was wrongly convicted under circumstances which reflect very badly on those involved. Under your preferred system he would have hanged. Evidently you consider the accidental/malicious hanging of a few innocents a price worth paying. I do not. Ah yes but this is a classic anti death penalty line isn't it? I mean it is certainly an irreversible penalty and therfore easy to equate it with wrong descisions. It's easy to say such and such would have been hanged if we had the facility availible at the time, whilst forgetting that the fact that we didn't might have actually played a part in their conviction in the first place. We have to rember that in all the years that we had capital punishment there was only ever one case where a phosthumous free pardon was ever granted that was in the case of Timothy Evans who was convicted of Murdering his wife(possibly Bentley but I can't remember). It was subsequently found that he probably didn't do it but probably did Murder his baby daughter, or was it the other way round? Can't quite remember. Anyway the presence of the death penalty seems from the historical record to be associated with fewer wrongful murder convictions rather than the many we seem to have these days. I mean, very few people are going to be prepared to either falsify or withold evidence in a capital case if the end result of a wrongfull executution could be themselves climbing the steps of the gallows. Jonathan Laws. -- We seem to have gone to being a police corruption list and now a death penalty list - I always thought the classic anti-death penalty argument (and the reason why I oppose the death penalty) is that life in prison is worse. The problem is that people get out now after seven years or so. The other argument that swung it for me is that it actually costs more to execute someone because of all the legal procedures than it does to keep them in prison for life. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Norman Bassett writes, in the latest of his always-interesting reflections, And I think it would be a big step forward if the UK police accepted that they work for the public and not for the Home Office which trains them to regard the public as creatures from another world. I know what you mean, Norman, but I think it might be a little paranoid to suggest police attitudes stem from training by the Home Office - an organisation which I would not trust to train anyone to do anything at all. No, I've always imagined that the us-and-them attitude is inevitable when you have a uniformed body of people set in authority over others: witness "The Authoritarian Personality", and psychological experiments such as the illuminating one where students were randomly assigned to be guards prison inmates, with scary consequences - apart from the many dreadful lessons of history. I read a valuable book in the 1970s, entitled "Scotland Yard", and I wish I could remember the author's name... He spent several months accompanying officers of the Met, and witnessed the growth in new officers of the tendency to categorise civilians as "Chummy", i.e. the citizens who are supposed to be served by the police become just a mildly irritating nuisance... In the course of my bachelor days I happened to have a couple of girl-friends (at different times, I hasten...) both of whom had been formerly married to policemen. They both reflected ruefully upon what they termed a "police culture" which they felt excluded not only them, but the public at large, and which contributed to the collapse of their marriages. This is just anecdotal, sure, but interesting. The relationship between citizens and whatever form of "police" they elect to have (or which is imposed upon them) is always going to need watching carefully. Best wishes to everyone on this newly-restored list - Anthony Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: Mike Taylor, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Snip I consider it insane that our elected government deny the people the possibility of executing criminals on the thin ground that the police have in the past accused innocent people and got them hanged. AGREED! At least have a referendum on it.. snip I have no moral objection to capital punishment but can you really dismiss a fatal miscarriage of justice so lightly? In the case of Stefan Kisko he was convicted of raping and murdering a child. He did 16 years inside as a child molester. Had the law allowed, he would have been hanged. The evidence that cleared him was available at the time of his conviction. He was sterile, as samples taken from him at the time proved. The rapist was not. The prosecution must have known. He was a misfit but he was harmless. He confessed under interrogation. So the forensic evidence was conveniently ignored. Under pressure to get a result, people do many things they would otherwise not do. It is unlikely to happen to you, IG. But if it ever did, I hope you would go to the gallows with the same level of enthusiasm that you have for hanging other innocent people. In a referendum before his arrest, Stefan Kisko might have voted for capital punishment for child murderers. After all, he wasn't one so what would it matter? -- We're getting way OT here but I have to say I've never been much of a fan of the death sentence because most people who receive it are penniless and you have to ensure they have a thorough appeals process to remove any doubt as to their innocence. It's usually cheaper to lock them up for life. Personally I think being locked in a cell for most of the rest of your life is far greater punishment than being sentenced to die, the problem is that life sentences often relate to the life of an unhealthy cat. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Would Ig like to give us examples of the five per cent of certificate holders to whom he objects? Barry Woodward Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Again, why let fact get in the way of a good rumour. I quoted the oft repeated comments that are spouted by the rabid anti-shooting lobby. As the point seems to be lost, why not consider the reality of things. If a rumour is repeated often enough, it becomes fact in the mind of the listener or reader. As I like to think that I am a fairly intelligent individual, I am able to use my own experience of life, of people, of my occupation and when a little common sense is applied, I find that the assertions that I repeated are wholly innaccurate and mostly false. Nevertheless, I repeated them. If you read the responses to that post, despite the fact that I made it abundantly clear that these were RUMOURS, the respondees have, without exception, considered that these are views that I personally hold, or consider to be true. Now then. As it has been written that 66.6% of police officers are corrupt, going by the above experience, eveyone is going to take that as gospel, when in fact it is total, insulting, feverish and rabid CRAP! It does get really boring reading the ill informed comments on the police. Fine, if there is something tangible and informed, but to foster comments such as 'I have heard that ...' is a waste of time! While we are at it, lets deal with some of the comments, no doubt believed, that were made by Norman. nor the assertion that the UK police are the occupational group most likely to possess illegal firearms for the purpose of protecting themselves against the personal malice of the criminals they are paid to pursue. Where in the name of creation did this come from? lol Its like me saying..'actually, bank managers are the most likely people to possess illegal firearms' Benefit of experience..real experience not rumour fed experiencethere is not a problem with police officers having illegal guns for self defence. Doesn't happen. Enlighten me if you know of something that I don't, but try to be factual. The matter of fraudulent police clear-up rates for crimes like burglary has been extensively covered in the national press and I don't see how IG can deny that every member of the police is aware of what's going on and presumably can live with it or we'd have police demonstrations in Wembley Stadium protesting about it. The fraudulent clear up rates are a perennial bone of contention. The home office decides what statistics will be used in clear up rates and in crime recording figues. Instant reduction was made when attempted twoc was made a summary offence with no power of arrest. The effect was..when I got called to a damaged vehicle, (locks smashed, ignition ripped out, etc) I would record it as a clear attempted theft of a motor vehicle. As the criminal attempts act reduced the attempt to a summary offence, it was not therefore part of the home office recordable crime statistics. The crime figures fell overnight! A far as clear ups go, this debate has always centered on prison and offender visits. An offender who has been sentenced to a term of imprisonment would be visited in prison, and would make numerous admissions of crimes. He or she would make these admissions for a number of reasons. They knew that no action would be taken against them, as they were already serving a term of imprisonment. They were therefore making sure that there would be no charges waiting for them when they got released. They often got rewardscigarettes, chocolate, etc. (no, NOT drugs.) A day or so talking to the police relieved the boredom of sitting in a cell. If you look at the HMIC reports on every police force (available online from HMIC web site) you will find all the information about crime statistics, including the methods of compilation. Before running off at the mouth about things like this, try doing some research about the real facts. The situation of UK police corruption deriving from the expanding drugs market in the UK and mirroring what has happened in the US is something I would have thought was fully accepted. No, 'fraid not. No one I know accepts in any way, shape or form any form of corruption. If a bent copper is caught, he goes to prison. Rightly so. I have never met an officer who would hesitate to take action against anyone who is involved in any form of drugs related corruption. If you have any evidence that officers are involved in this, let me know - anonymously if necessary, or through a third party, and I will publicly and openly take the most stringent measures to ensure the longest term of imprisonment is imposed on the guilty parties. I have no problem with that. As for insanity, I personally consider it insane that policemen are being put on the street without sidearms to protect themselves with and that they are not expected, as they are elsewhere, to go armed at all times in uniform or not Personal opinion, fine, I can live with that. My personal opinion is that it would be totally insane (and
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: Norman Bassett, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I was delighted to read IG's reply to my posting. I had feared my informant was so accurate that NOBODY disputed the assertion in any way at all. I would not like to comment on the assertion that a lot of shooters have illegal firearms, nor the assertion that the UK police are the occupational group most likely to possess illegal firearms for the purpose of protecting themselves against the personal malice of the criminals they are paid to pursue. The matter of fraudulent police clear-up rates for crimes like burglary has been extensively covered in the national press and I don't see how IG can deny that every member of the police is aware of what's going on and presumably can live with it or we'd have police demonstrations in Wembley Stadium protesting about it. Shooters are commonly ex-servicemen and have in fact serially killed people in the course of their duties. The expression "all X should be shot" is an extremely common expression of a political viewpoint which most of the people expressing it mean quite literally. People are entitled to express their political opinions. The situation of UK police corruption deriving from the expanding drugs market in the UK and mirroring what has happened in the US is something I would have thought was fully accepted. As for insanity, I personally consider it insane that policemen are being put on the street without sidearms to protect themselves with and that they are not expected, as they are elsewhere, to go armed at all times in uniform or not. I consider it insane that our government deny law-abiding people the right to carry sidearms for their personal protection. I consider it insane that our elected government deny the people the possibility of executing criminals on the thin ground that the police have in the past accused innocent people and got them hanged. I consider it absolutely beyond question that the government and their agents the police have a vested interest in preserving a certain level of crime in our society, against the interests of the majority of the citizenry, and that they deny honest people guns for self-defence in pursuit of their anti-social "hidden agenda". Regards Norman Bassett drakenfels.org Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ho hum. Here we go again. Shooters v. police... Listen IG, I'm sure most of us think you're a perfectly decent bloke - after all, you go hunting, and clearly know a thing or two about ballistics, so you can't be all bad - but you just have to realise that the long-standing, persistent, authoritarian, damn scary anti-gun anti-liberty attitudes of too many police officers simply means that to some extent you're all tarred with the same brush. Unfair, but that's the way it is. When I was a boy I was taught to trust and like the police; these days I don't. I do my best to keep contact with the police to an absolute minimum, and the same goes for a hell of a lot of people I know. Sorry. Anthony Harrison BTW you're no relation to Iggy Pop I suppose? Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] When I was a boy I was taught to trust and like the police; these days I don't. I do my best to keep contact with the police to an absolute minimum, and the same goes for a hell of a lot of people I know. Sorry. Dear Ant My point exactly. I am a shooter, and used to think that all shooters were great people. Having worked with licensing for some years, I now realise the amount of unpleasant, potentially dangerous and thoroughly objectionable people that own firearms certificates. Before I hear the howls of protest, let me state that these form about 5% of the total in the area that I work. That 5%, however, colours the remaining 95%. All tarred with the same brush.unfair, but thats the way it is! Frustrating, isn't it? We both know the realities of our respective groups, but are unable to get people to see the wider picture! IG PS..No relation to Adam? -- You don't own a firearm certificate, you hold a firearm certificate, this is what I was told when I attempted to claim compensation for loss of use of the authorities that I had paid for on my firearm certificate when my handguns were confiscated. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] --snip-- ". . . I now realise the amount of unpleasant, potentially dangerous and thoroughly objectionable people that own firearms certificates." Steve, IG, Well, IG, I guess that qualifies you as some kind of psychiatry professional, eh? Just what, I'd like to ask, is your unique qualification to denounce another citizen as being unfit to possess firearms, other than the stated disabilities under your law? And perhaps even more importantly, what are the scientific criteria that you apply? Should make interesting discussions for whatever legislative body is involved to remove ever more citizens from the rolls of 'firearms owner', by employing 'IG's Fiat'. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- I have to say if IG is a licensing officer the police need very little in the way of evidence to revoke a certificate, so I find his statement a bit odd. The Acts state that the Chief Officer of Police must be satisfied: "that in all the circumstances the applicant can be permitted to have the firearm or ammunition in his possession without danger to the public safety or to the peace." Which is pretty broad. If IG is aware of dodgy people with certificates then it is fair to say the police haven't done their job properly. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The people who made the comments that IG is witness to, are extreme bigots; and if they occupy any office of government, they are particularly dangerous as well. I wonder: would they be able to defend them in an open law court? Ho hum. Here we go again. Police v shooters. The people i mentioned (tongue in cheek btw) would be able to defend their ignorant and untrue comments equally as well as the ignorant and deceitful rumour mongers who propogate the myth that 66.6% of police officers are corrupt or do nothing about corruption. Or perhaps neither of them could... or perhaps one or the other is wrong? or perhaps they are all wrong? Phew IG Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I've heard estimates that one third of the UK police engage in corruption of some kind - ie take bribes from criminals, resell seized drugs etc, engage in clear-up figure fiddling etc. That one third of the UK police know enough about corruption going on to make a complaint with a reasonable hope of success - but don't because you make too many enemies that way. And that the remaining third of the UK police are honest, usually those new on the job and/or in lowly positions. As you might expect..lola few comments are worthy in response to the above paragraph, which was probably written with absolutely no venom dribbling onto the keyboard. I have heard that shooters are all homicidal maniacs. Not a proportion, all of 'em. I have also heard that almost one half of shooters own illegally held firearms. Sorry, weapons. I have personally, with my own ears, heard it said that shooters are not to be trusted with firearms (sorry, weapons) because they just want to kill people. I do believe it has been rumoured in the very best rumour circles, that target shooters are all sad anorak types. Another thing, heard by a cousin of a friend of mine in a pub, spoken by a man he didnt know and will never see again but was called Smith, was that 34.7 % of shooters hate the police! (this was whispered so it could have been a mistake). Moral of the story: why let truth get in the way of a good rumour! Oh, and as I'm not new in the job (or anywhere else I suppose!) then I must be in a lowly positionso I can't know what I'm talking about..or else I am corrupt! Now that what I call a no win situation. g IG PS Please excuse the sarcasm. The original post wasn't worth anything else. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
