Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
The electronics only register cell electricity usage in the kWh field and gas use in the other field.I agree though that any use of gas when measuring range could be slightly incorrect as the Volt/Ampera REX is a generator only and starts and stops regularly if driving slowly to ensure that it doesn't put any gas generated power into the cells. The software engineers try extremely hard to only generate energy for the road when the cells are considered empty but are actually topped up and emptied in a continuous process. If you check earlier posts you will note that many display electricity only use and are often over 50 miles. BTW, these cars were so ahead of their time and are still probably the only PHEV's that are pure electric with gas mode only used when the cells are empty or Hold/Mountain mode is selected.They have huge power off the line and will happily reach and cruise at 100mph (not on a public road) using battery only. It is later hybrids like the Outlander that seem to need gas mode to assist the electric motor. From: Paul Dove dov...@bellsouth.net To: Russ Sciville rustyb...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Thursday, 14 May 2015, 12:41 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. I think you all are mistaken. You are using gas. Maybe not much .3 of a gallon like the guy said in the forum but then it doesn't take much gas to go 15 miles. Those cars go into gas mode if you go over 45 miles an hour I believe Sent from my iPhone On May 14, 2015, at 3:39 AM, Russ Sciville rustyb...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Hi Paul, I never wished this to start an argument as we are all I hope avid EVers. My post was simply to show that a well designed drive train is capable of high mileages even when tugging around a heavy body and I totally agree with other posts that removing weight and lowering the CD will inevitably reduce the need for higher capacity battery packs. The Volt/Ampera has a 16kWh pack but only allows around 10.4kWh to be used for longevity and many are covering over 150,000 miles with little or no capacity loss as I believe the loss is above the allowed amount. As for proving the range, yes you need to drive steadily but it is an art many EVers develop naturally and this forum link https://speakev.com/threads/50-mile-club.304/page-11 will show that it is exceeded regularly. What has surprised me is that my Volt/Ampera exceeds the range efficiency of my Lotus Elise EV which only weighs a tonne although is using an older drive train which uses the original gearbox fixed in third.. From: paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, 13 May 2015, 22:37 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. No they don't. 30 to 35 miles on battery. You would have to prove that, Of course the i-MiEV will go further if you drive 40 MPH. I was speaking of normal driving. From: Russ Sciville rustyb...@yahoo.co.uk To: Paul Dove dov...@bellsouth.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. Volt/Ampera's regularly do more than 50 miles on their 10.4kWh battery packs and that includes dragging round a backup four cylinder engine in a steel chassis. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150514/c6f4252c/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
On 13 May 2015 at 22:31, Lee Hart via EV wrote: a certain percentage of the market will never be happy with EVs until they are just like ICEs. I hate to say it, and I'm vulnerable to citation needed, but I'd have to estimate that percentage at around 90 percent. :-\ Especially here in the US, vehicle buyers have outsize expectations. They want their vehicles to handle any situation, from commuting to hauling lumber and furniture. Their habit is thus to buy vehicles that are grossly oversized and overpowered for their routine needs. It's also common for buyers to increase the vehicle size with every new vehicle purchase. Presumably that's why automakers typically increase the size of each model with every redesign. Unless they're forced to by circumstances or legislation, these consumers are not going to pay the same or more for a product that does less. That's just normal consumer behavior. Personally, I'm open to more limited EVs, and probably many others on the EVDL are too. But let's face it, we're not normal vehicle consumers. Barring a major disruption in the market, EVs will have limited success with real world vehicle buyers until they match the capability of ICEVs, feature for feature. The only way round that is through low cost niche EVs which don't engender comparisons with ICEVs. This is why e-bikes have been successful. They cost less than cars, trucks, and motorcycles, and they supplement these larger and more capable vehicles rather than trying to replace them. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
On 13 May 2015 at 10:58, Ben Goren via EV wrote: 15 kWh / 15 minutes is 60 kilowatts...not quite the level of insanity of a megawatt, but still in a range far beyond what you'd ever see in a residential setting. Not so far beyond at all. A typical US suburban tract home has a 200 amp, 240 volt service. If devoted entirely to an EV such an electrical service could charge an EV at a continuous rate of over 38kW. Many modern mcmansions, which are often built by the dozens in high end developments, now have 400 amp service. This would allow for a continous power of almost 77kW. Thus I'd say that the electrical infrastructure for 60kW charging is fairly widely available right now. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
On 05/14/2015 12:21 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: Worse...I don't think I've ever seen anything bigger than a 220V / 50A breaker in a residential panel -- though, granted, I'm certainly not an electrician. I have an 80A breaker in my panel for the 15Kw backup heat in our air-source heat pump. --Rick ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
On May 14, 2015, at 9:36 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: My guess: I think the demand for roadside charging will be fairly high as (another guess) 30%-50% of the residences will not have access to domestic charging - because they are in a multistory dwelling with few (or no) off street parking spaces. Pretty much every parking space is within shouting distance of a lightbulb, and it wouldn't take all that much to splice in 110V / 15A circuits to all those spaces. We hear more and more news stories about apartments providing plugs in the parking stalls, street meters doubling as charging points, and so on. I bet that's the standard we'll see: just as you expect a light switch at shoulder hight just inside every door on the same side as the knob, you'll expect an outlet at every parking spot. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150514/ba79b716/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
On May 14, 2015, at 10:23 AM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I'd guess that one nightmare scenario for the utilities is for everyone in the ritzy neighborhood to arrive home with their Teslas, and plug them all into their superchargers at the same time! Indeed, that may well be a significant part of the behind-the-scenes thinking with their new Powerwall product. Remember how we were discussing dump packs for that Israeli high-current battery that we suspect could be vaporware? The Powerwall would likely make an excellent dump pack for a Model S. After all, Tesla is selling the Powerwall as a way to use off-peak electricity during on-peak times...and few if any home appliances are as power-hungry as a rapidly-charging EV. Yeah, a single module is only 7-10 kWh...but I bet that's right in line with typical daily charging demands as reported over-the-air back to Tesla. Hadn't thought of it before...but, now that I have, I'd be surprised if Tesla engineers haven't. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150514/413a0961/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
I agree with Jamie. There are obviously a great range of situations, but I would guess his is more typical.Where I live people seem to roughly fall into two categories: those who like evs but can't afford one, and those who can afford an ev but don't want one. The former can only afford one car (typically a used one), and need to occasionally take longer trips to grandparents, etc, and/or have a long commute. These people typically live further from work because that's where they can afford a house. The latter group considers an ev just a car, and far inferior to other cars they can buy which refuel fast and go far. One put it rather succinctly after I told her my car's range: Its useless. In order for an ev to meet the desires of the former group it has to compete with buying a used ice car. To sell to the latter group it has to be special or sexy, high quality, and have long range, something like a Tesla S. Myself, I found I used my ev more when I increased charging rate. It enabled me to quickly charge at home for those times when I need to go somewhere in the late afternoon or evening after coming home from a trip where I used most of the battery's capacity. It also permitted me to charge faster at public EVSEs, increasing the distance I could drive with a 30 - 60 minute stop, and decreasing my dwell time at the EVSE so it is available to others. The latter is a big consideration where ev density is higher. My charger is 10 kW, which is about 45 highway miles per hour charge for my car. I sometimes stop at RV parks and charge from a 220V/50A outlet at 9 or 10 kW for 30 minutes then continue on. I also charge from a 220V/50A outlet at home. But of course a bicycle is much more efficient than an ev, so I ride that for many of my errands except during the cold days of winter. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Supercharging-is-not-the-way-tp4675486p4675546.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: A typical US suburban tract home has a 200 amp, 240 volt service... Many modern mcmansions, which are often built by the dozens in high end developments, now have 400 amp service. This would allow for a continous power of almost 77kW. Not quite. That's the peak power available; not the average. The utilities aren't building out their network to supply that kind of continuous power level for every home. Only a fraction of that power is available for any length of time. I'd guess that one nightmare scenario for the utilities is for everyone in the ritzy neighborhood to arrive home with their Teslas, and plug them all into their superchargers at the same time! -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
Did any of you monitor the voltage of the most negative cell and the most positive cell during the charging cycle and discharge cycle using a very high charging system? My first EV came with a on board 50 amp charger and a off board 100 amp 3 phase charger. These were SCR chargers which you could dial from 0 to 100 amp at 90 volt to 280 volt output with a AC input of 125/250 VAC. Did not have any BMS back in the 70's at the time. During the discharging cycle which may be up to 800 motor amperes, the most positive cell would always end up less voltage than the most positive cell. This effect was also noted in a article call the Electric Vehicle News which was cause by the flow of electrons from the positive to the negative plates during discharge. During the charge cycle, the most positive cell may end up with more voltage then the most negative cell. It was noted at the time, this effect was not to get concern over. This same charging and discharging voltage difference can be seen with the Li Ion pack that's has BMS. The difference is very slight which is only 0.01 volt difference between the most negative and most positive. My battery pack consist of six strings of 54 cells in series at 33 ah for 226 volts with the six strings in parallel. Charging at 42 amperes with a 50 amp /250 vac charger, each string only receives 42/6 = 7 ampere per string taking the battery voltage only to 95% of the maximum rating of the cells. Driving only 10 miles, and charging at this rate, the voltage is reach in with 30 seconds. The voltage is then held until the ampere hour reaches 100% SOC which may take about 40 minutes. Using these superchargers, what is the recommended maximum charge current that can be use on one string of cells? Roland - Original Message - From: Ben Goren via EVmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org To: EVDL Administratormailto:evp...@drmm.net ; Electric Vehicle Discussion Listmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2015 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. On May 14, 2015, at 6:35 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 13 May 2015 at 10:58, Ben Goren via EV wrote: 15 kWh / 15 minutes is 60 kilowatts...not quite the level of insanity of a megawatt, but still in a range far beyond what you'd ever see in a residential setting. Not so far beyond at all. A typical US suburban tract home has a 200 amp, 240 volt service. If devoted entirely to an EV such an electrical service could charge an EV at a continuous rate of over 38kW. Many modern mcmansions, which are often built by the dozens in high end developments, now have 400 amp service. This would allow for a continous power of almost 77kW. Thus I'd say that the electrical infrastructure for 60kW charging is fairly widely available right now. Er...no. Indeed, I think you just proved my point. 60kW is over half again as much as you get at the meter in most homes, and nearly 80% of what you get at the meter in a McMansion. How many people living in McMansions are going to be happy shutting down basically everything, especially all the air conditioning and pool equipment they paid so much extra to get the 400A service for in the first place, every time they want to charge the car? Worse...I don't think I've ever seen anything bigger than a 220V / 50A breaker in a residential panel -- though, granted, I'm certainly not an electrician. That's 11 kW. You're going to need half a dozen of those, almost as many as will physically fit in a typical panel...and just the cost of the copper for the wiring is going to be insane -- especially since the meter is, as often as not, on the opposite side of the house as the garage. And the cost of retrofitting a neighborhood for 400A...it'd be cheaper to cover all the rooftops in solar panels, add a bunch of batteries, and cut the grid connection entirely. I just don't see it. What I expect to see is, especially when 200+ mile ranges become the new normal, for most people to do almost all their charging on a 110V / 15A (or maybe 30A, since that's not uncommon in garages) circuit, the types of people who buy the top trim level packages to get L2 chargers installed, and then a footnote for some sort of on-the-road rapid charging that only gets used out on road trips or out of desperation. And I expect to see those roadside charging stations struggle for profitability at the same time they charge exorbitant fees b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150514/b1dca03f/attachment.pgphttp://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150514/b1dca03f/attachment.pgp
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
You can't just splice in extra nodes everywhere. The wiring and circuit protection has to accommodate the potential increased concurrent load. Realistically, this applies to the entire grid. You cannot suddenly power a significant amount of our transportation with the existing grie. The ampacity is not there. Add in too much and it all melts down. On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On May 14, 2015, at 9:36 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: My guess: I think the demand for roadside charging will be fairly high as (another guess) 30%-50% of the residences will not have access to domestic charging - because they are in a multistory dwelling with few (or no) off street parking spaces. Pretty much every parking space is within shouting distance of a lightbulb, and it wouldn't take all that much to splice in 110V / 15A circuits to all those spaces. We hear more and more news stories about apartments providing plugs in the parking stalls, street meters doubling as charging points, and so on. I bet that's the standard we'll see: just as you expect a light switch at shoulder hight just inside every door on the same side as the knob, you'll expect an outlet at every parking spot. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150514/ba79b716/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150514/a9a98107/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
On May 14, 2015, at 10:47 AM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: dump pack Thinking this through a bit more...I'm not sure that it would make sense for a rapid-charging station to operate without a substantial dump pack of its own. Without one, you're left needing a grid connection able to meet your peak demand, which will be truly insane. Imagine a not-too-distant future where luxury EVs come with 100 kWh packs that people expect to charge in ten minutes; that's over half a megawatt. Now imagine a convoy of such traveling together on a road trip, all of them simultaneously pulling up to each of the 36 slots in the station. No way is that station going to have a 20 MW feed from the grid...that's about 5% - 20% of the output of a utility-scale generating unit. And even the utilities themselves would have problems running such a facility because of the sharply peaking nature of the load. But if, on average over the course of a day including times when all slots are empty, the station only sees one or two stalls in use at a time...well, a megawatt utility connection is still pretty freakin' huge -- 1 kV @ 1 kA, or however you want to balance the two -- but much more manageable. You'd keep a constant rate (or, perhaps, varying per utility feedback but averaged to a constant) of charge going into your massive dump pack, and each of the slots would feed from the dump pack, rapidly depleting it for just a short period of time as the grid constantly trickle-fills it back up again. Again...the scale of such operations pretty much demands that they be insanely expensive, especially compared against a 110V / 15A overnight charge that'll more than satisfy almost all of almost everybody's needs once vehicles can reliably get over 200 miles on a full charge. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150514/b3cbd469/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Fw: Supercharging is not the way.
in the forum but then it doesn't take much gas to go 15 miles. Those cars go into gas mode if you go over 45 miles an hour I believe Sent from my iPhone On May 14, 2015, at 3:39 AM, Russ Sciville rustyb...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Hi Paul, I never wished this to start an argument as we are all I hope avid EVers. My post was simply to show that a well designed drive train is capable of high mileages even when tugging around a heavy body and I totally agree with other posts that removing weight and lowering the CD will inevitably reduce the need for higher capacity battery packs. The Volt/Ampera has a 16kWh pack but only allows around 10.4kWh to be used for longevity and many are covering over 150,000 miles with little or no capacity loss as I believe the loss is above the allowed amount. As for proving the range, yes you need to drive steadily but it is an art many EVers develop naturally and this forum link https://speakev.com/threads/50-mile-club.304/page-11 will show that it is exceeded regularly. What has surprised me is that my Volt/Ampera exceeds the range efficiency of my Lotus Elise EV which only weighs a tonne although is using an older drive train which uses the original gearbox fixed in third.. From: paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, 13 May 2015, 22:37 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. No they don't. 30 to 35 miles on battery. You would have to prove that, Of course the i-MiEV will go further if you drive 40 MPH. I was speaking of normal driving. From: Russ Sciville rustyb...@yahoo.co.uk To: Paul Dove dov...@bellsouth.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. Volt/Ampera's regularly do more than 50 miles on their 10.4kWh battery packs and that includes dragging round a backup four cylinder engine in a steel chassis. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150514/c7e019f9/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150514/9e1a2fec/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Fw: Supercharging is not the way.
May 2015, 12:41 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. I think you all are mistaken. You are using gas. Maybe not much .3 of a gallon like the guy said in the forum but then it doesn't take much gas to go 15 miles. Those cars go into gas mode if you go over 45 miles an hour I believe Sent from my iPhone On May 14, 2015, at 3:39 AM, Russ Sciville rustyb...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Hi Paul, I never wished this to start an argument as we are all I hope avid EVers. My post was simply to show that a well designed drive train is capable of high mileages even when tugging around a heavy body and I totally agree with other posts that removing weight and lowering the CD will inevitably reduce the need for higher capacity battery packs. The Volt/Ampera has a 16kWh pack but only allows around 10.4kWh to be used for longevity and many are covering over 150,000 miles with little or no capacity loss as I believe the loss is above the allowed amount. As for proving the range, yes you need to drive steadily but it is an art many EVers develop naturally and this forum link https://speakev.com/threads/50-mile-club.304/page-11 will show that it is exceeded regularly. What has surprised me is that my Volt/Ampera exceeds the range efficiency of my Lotus Elise EV which only weighs a tonne although is using an older drive train which uses the original gearbox fixed in third.. From: paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, 13 May 2015, 22:37 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. No they don't. 30 to 35 miles on battery. You would have to prove that, Of course the i-MiEV will go further if you drive 40 MPH. I was speaking of normal driving. From: Russ Sciville rustyb...@yahoo.co.uk To: Paul Dove dov...@bellsouth.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. Volt/Ampera's regularly do more than 50 miles on their 10.4kWh battery packs and that includes dragging round a backup four cylinder engine in a steel chassis. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150514/c7e019f9/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
Roadside charging stations - that's the interesting question. How many will be needed and can they be profitable? Certainly there's a lot of upfront cost to bring in the power, transformers, rectifiers, load leveling, and so on. Once done, though, operation and maintenance should be miniscule compared to the existing gas stations. My guess: I think the demand for roadside charging will be fairly high as (another guess) 30%-50% of the residences will not have access to domestic charging - because they are in a multistory dwelling with few (or no) off street parking spaces. As for whether people will install Level 1 or 2 domestic charging, I think the L2 will come down enough in price that it will be a defacto standard. It doesn't make any significant difference on the need for roadside charging, though. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: EVDL Administrator evp...@drmm.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 14-May-15 9:21:47 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. Er...no. Indeed, I think you just proved my point. 60kW is over half again as much as you get at the meter in most homes, and nearly 80% of what you get at the meter in a McMansion. How many people living in McMansions are going to be happy shutting down basically everything, especially all the air conditioning and pool equipment they paid so much extra to get the 400A service for in the first place, every time they want to charge the car? Worse...I don't think I've ever seen anything bigger than a 220V / 50A breaker in a residential panel -- though, granted, I'm certainly not an electrician. That's 11 kW. You're going to need half a dozen of those, almost as many as will physically fit in a typical panel...and just the cost of the copper for the wiring is going to be insane -- especially since the meter is, as often as not, on the opposite side of the house as the garage. And the cost of retrofitting a neighborhood for 400A...it'd be cheaper to cover all the rooftops in solar panels, add a bunch of batteries, and cut the grid connection entirely. I just don't see it. What I expect to see is, especially when 200+ mile ranges become the new normal, for most people to do almost all their charging on a 110V / 15A (or maybe 30A, since that's not uncommon in garages) circuit, the types of people who buy the top trim level packages to get L2 chargers installed, and then a footnote for some sort of on-the-road rapid charging that only gets used out on road trips or out of desperation. And I expect to see those roadside charging stations struggle for profitability at the same time they charge exorbitant fees ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
On May 14, 2015, at 6:35 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 13 May 2015 at 10:58, Ben Goren via EV wrote: 15 kWh / 15 minutes is 60 kilowatts...not quite the level of insanity of a megawatt, but still in a range far beyond what you'd ever see in a residential setting. Not so far beyond at all. A typical US suburban tract home has a 200 amp, 240 volt service. If devoted entirely to an EV such an electrical service could charge an EV at a continuous rate of over 38kW. Many modern mcmansions, which are often built by the dozens in high end developments, now have 400 amp service. This would allow for a continous power of almost 77kW. Thus I'd say that the electrical infrastructure for 60kW charging is fairly widely available right now. Er...no. Indeed, I think you just proved my point. 60kW is over half again as much as you get at the meter in most homes, and nearly 80% of what you get at the meter in a McMansion. How many people living in McMansions are going to be happy shutting down basically everything, especially all the air conditioning and pool equipment they paid so much extra to get the 400A service for in the first place, every time they want to charge the car? Worse...I don't think I've ever seen anything bigger than a 220V / 50A breaker in a residential panel -- though, granted, I'm certainly not an electrician. That's 11 kW. You're going to need half a dozen of those, almost as many as will physically fit in a typical panel...and just the cost of the copper for the wiring is going to be insane -- especially since the meter is, as often as not, on the opposite side of the house as the garage. And the cost of retrofitting a neighborhood for 400A...it'd be cheaper to cover all the rooftops in solar panels, add a bunch of batteries, and cut the grid connection entirely. I just don't see it. What I expect to see is, especially when 200+ mile ranges become the new normal, for most people to do almost all their charging on a 110V / 15A (or maybe 30A, since that's not uncommon in garages) circuit, the types of people who buy the top trim level packages to get L2 chargers installed, and then a footnote for some sort of on-the-road rapid charging that only gets used out on road trips or out of desperation. And I expect to see those roadside charging stations struggle for profitability at the same time they charge exorbitant fees b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150514/b1dca03f/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
in a steel chassis. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150514/59a1df88/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Fw: Supercharging is not the way.
/threads/50-mile-club.304/page-11 will show that it is exceeded regularly. What has surprised me is that my Volt/Ampera exceeds the range efficiency of my Lotus Elise EV which only weighs a tonne although is using an older drive train which uses the original gearbox fixed in third.. From: paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, 13 May 2015, 22:37 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. No they don't. 30 to 35 miles on battery. You would have to prove that, Of course the i-MiEV will go further if you drive 40 MPH. I was speaking of normal driving. From: Russ Sciville rustyb...@yahoo.co.uk To: Paul Dove dov...@bellsouth.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. Volt/Ampera's regularly do more than 50 miles on their 10.4kWh battery packs and that includes dragging round a backup four cylinder engine in a steel chassis. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150514/c7e019f9/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Fw: Supercharging is not the way.
for higher capacity battery packs. The Volt/Ampera has a 16kWh pack but only allows around 10.4kWh to be used for longevity and many are covering over 150,000 miles with little or no capacity loss as I believe the loss is above the allowed amount. As for proving the range, yes you need to drive steadily but it is an art many EVers develop naturally and this forum link https://speakev.com/threads/50-mile-club.304/page-11 will show that it is exceeded regularly. What has surprised me is that my Volt/Ampera exceeds the range efficiency of my Lotus Elise EV which only weighs a tonne although is using an older drive train which uses the original gearbox fixed in third.. From: paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, 13 May 2015, 22:37 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. No they don't. 30 to 35 miles on battery. You would have to prove that, Of course the i-MiEV will go further if you drive 40 MPH. I was speaking of normal driving. From: Russ Sciville rustyb...@yahoo.co.uk To: Paul Dove dov...@bellsouth.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. Volt/Ampera's regularly do more than 50 miles on their 10.4kWh battery packs and that includes dragging round a backup four cylinder engine in a steel chassis. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150514/c7e019f9/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
On 14 May 2015 at 9:21, Ben Goren via EV wrote: How many people living in McMansions are going to be happy shutting down basically everything, especially all the air conditioning and pool equipment they paid so much extra to get the 400A service for in the first place, every time they want to charge the car? Sorry, maybe I misunderstood you. I didn't realize you were talking about home charging. I thought you were suggesting that electrical infrastructure to support 60kW charging wasn't common. I was saying Sure it is, it's right there in many recent high-end housing developments. Of course a homeowner won't want to shut down the pool heater and aircon to charge the EV. So if you're talking about home charging, that would require a second service drop dedicated to the EV. The cost would be astronomical, not just for the electrical service, but for the charger. I can't imagine it would ever fly as a mass market product. It'd be a custom built deal for the likes of Elon Musk and Neil Young, 0.1-percenter-and-EV-fan types. If the EV were smart enough to reconfigure its drive inverter as a charger, it could bypass a lot of the charger expense. IIRC, at least some of the AC Propulsion EVs did that. So, apologies if I didn't get your original point. PS - Lee is right. I didn't consider the fact that the power companies design for residential continuous load at a tiny fraction of peak load. I was thinking too narrowly. I expect one person in such a development, maybe two, could charge EVs at 60kW. I don't know how many more, but at some point protective gear somewhere would say whoa, no more, making a lot of electrical customers unhappy. Thanks to both of you for catching my errors. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
Ben Goren via EV wrote: Thinking this through a bit more...I'm not sure that it would make sense for a rapid-charging station to operate without a substantial dump pack of its own. That is correct. I worked for a company that made high power chargers, mainly for commercial/industrial users. It's not unusual to have a warehouse with dozens of electric forklifts, or a mine with dozens of electric tugs. At the end of a shift, they either plug them in to recharge, or swap packs if there are multiple shifts per day. Since these industrial EV packs are hundreds or even thousands of amphours, their chargers are huge! Since plants *do* pay penalties for peak power, and get discounts for off-peak usage, they routinely load-shift with their EV batteries. Depending on their situation, they might use timers to only recharge their EVs at night. Or they might have their spare packs on charge while the vehicles themselves are in use, so when they pull in for a quick charge between shifts, the peak power is actually coming from the spare batteries. Lots of schemes are in use. The plant managers will do whatever it takes for the best bottom line. -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Fw: Supercharging is not the way.
On 14 May 2015 at 15:59, Russ Sciville via EV wrote: the power module is a complicated bugger ... Your description sounds at least superficially similar to the way the Prius works. In the Prius, the motor, motor-generator, engine, and final drive all share a planetary gear unit. If I understand it right, the computer uses the small motor-generator and the large motor with an electronic boost-buck converter to convert high ICE RPM into low RPM final drive torque. Essentially it's an electromechanical torque converter. That said, Toyota holds a sheaf of patents on their design. Unless GM licensed it the way Ford did for their early Escape hybrids, either all or in part, GM's would have to be different enough not to infringe. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
On 05/14/2015 11:21 AM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: Worse...I don't think I've ever seen anything bigger than a 220V / 50A breaker in a residential panel -- though, granted, I'm certainly not an electrician. That's 11 kW. You're going to need half a dozen of those, 70-80 amp breakers are fairly easy to find. I have several installed to provide full power to my JuiceBoxes. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
I would think they would run power beside or under the road and run inductively Sent from my iPhone On May 14, 2015, at 1:21 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On May 14, 2015, at 10:47 AM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: dump pack Thinking this through a bit more...I'm not sure that it would make sense for a rapid-charging station to operate without a substantial dump pack of its own. Without one, you're left needing a grid connection able to meet your peak demand, which will be truly insane. Imagine a not-too-distant future where luxury EVs come with 100 kWh packs that people expect to charge in ten minutes; that's over half a megawatt. Now imagine a convoy of such traveling together on a road trip, all of them simultaneously pulling up to each of the 36 slots in the station. No way is that station going to have a 20 MW feed from the grid...that's about 5% - 20% of the output of a utility-scale generating unit. And even the utilities themselves would have problems running such a facility because of the sharply peaking nature of the load. But if, on average over the course of a day including times when all slots are empty, the station only sees one or two stalls in use at a time...well, a megawatt utility connection is still pretty freakin' huge -- 1 kV @ 1 kA, or however you want to balance the two -- but much more manageable. You'd keep a constant rate (or, perhaps, varying per utility feedback but averaged to a constant) of charge going into your massive dump pack, and each of the slots would feed from the dump pack, rapidly depleting it for just a short period of time as the grid constantly trickle-fills it back up again. Again...the scale of such operations pretty much demands that they be insanely expensive, especially compared against a 110V / 15A overnight charge that'll more than satisfy almost all of almost everybody's needs once vehicles can reliably get over 200 miles on a full charge. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150514/b3cbd469/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
On 05/14/2015 11:21 AM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: Worse...I don't think I've ever seen anything bigger than a 220V / 50A breaker in a residential panel -- though, granted, I'm certainly not an electrician. That's 11 kW. You're going to need half a dozen of those, I have a 60A breaker so my PFC-50 can run full power. -- Try my Sensible Email package! https://sourceforge.net/projects/sensibleemail/ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
On 5/14/2015 11:21 AM, Ben Goren via EV wrote (in part): No way is that station going to have a 20 MW feed from the grid...that's about 5% - 20% of the output of a utility-scale generating unit. And even the utilities themselves would have problems running such a facility because of the sharply peaking nature of the load. Ummm, No. You guys are not electric utility guys, and you need a little reality check from one. Except for some small utilities, a 20MW load is really no big deal. A bit much for most residential distribution lines, but not a big deal otherwise. The distribution line that feeds my house is 12KV (phase to phase on the 3 phase or about 6.9KV from each phase to neutral). As I recall during peak loads it runs about 300 amps per phase or about 2MW per phase. This i an OLD distribution line. My electric utility is running considerably higher voltage for distribution in newer construction areas. BTW, for reasonably modern utility generating stations, a small one might be 250MW, and a large one in the 750 to 1,000 MW (or in some cases larger). So your 5 - 20% figure is WAY off. But if, on average over the course of a day including times when all slots are empty, the station only sees one or two stalls in use at a time...well, a megawatt utility connection is still pretty freakin' huge -- 1 kV @ 1 kA, or however you want to balance the two -- but much more manageable. A megawatt connection is going to be a the local distribution voltage which depending on the utility and how old it is, will likely be no less than 12KV and could be as much at 66KV. That's only about 15 - 80 amps (and yea, I'm simplifying it by giving a number as if it was single phase - it would actually be 3 phase and I'm too tired to do the math in my head right now). Everything I've heard from the utilities is that charging even large numbers of EVs is not a real problem. -- 73 - Jim Walls - K6CCC j...@k6ccc.org ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I have a low range S-10 pickup conversion with lead acid batteries. (I limit it to 20 miles a charge with new batteries, and after a year or two the usable range is closer to 15 miles.) It's also relatively inefficient, especially for the stop and go driving I do, plus some hills (500-700 watt/hours a mile depending upon how you measure). Level 1 charging works fine for my short commute (5 miles round trip daily), and I used level 1 for a year almost exclusively until I had a 240 volt outlet installed in the appropriate location. However, if I want to make two trips in a day (Saturdays, to the hardware store and then somewhere else, or going out after work) L1 won't cut it. Level 2 (relatively low 240 volts @ 18 amps or 4.3kWatts) charging makes the truck much more usable, as I can do two trips per day, and I wouldn't go back to L1 except for opportunity charging where a 240 volt outlet isn't available. That being said, if my truck had a 200 mile range, L1 charging WOULD be fine for me, as I never really go more than 10-15 miles on any of my trips. Jay On 05/14/2015 05:07 AM, Jamie K via EV wrote: All I can tell you is that from our experience, L2 is not rapid charging, it's normal charging. Whereas when you have somewhere to go soon, L1 is punishment charging. There are places where L1 works well, for example at an airport where the car is going to sit for days. And no doubt there are folks who don't need much spontaneity and have consistent daily needs (or another vehicle available) so that L1 would suffice. But while L1 can work for some cases, and it's nice to have in a pinch, it clearly limits what can be done with an EV. I wouldn't try to speak for most people, but I do think that flexible (home and away) charging options are big part of the equation for growing the EV market. L2 controllers do not cost thousands, ours was around $1k with professional installation and construction permit. Faster home charging adds flexibility and makes the car investment worth much more. When 200 mile ranges become the norm, it will be even more useful to charge at home at L2 6.6kW (or more) at around 25 miles per hour (or more) instead of trickling in at 5 miles/hour or so - except for those who don't mind parking their car much of the time and limiting their EV options. The potential pricing of L3 charging is an interesting topic. Right now it's free or not much $$ around here. BTW, Nissan removed their earlier warning about L3 charging after monitoring the performance of the packs for several years, and perhaps after changing the battery chemistry. Cheers, -Jamie On 5/13/15 7:19 PM, Ben Goren wrote: On May 13, 2015, at 5:57 PM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: It's the outliers that you have to accommodate. Yes, but not necessarily with rapid charging. When 200-mile ranges become the norm, as is promised soon -- say, a 40 kWh (usable) battery in a (conservative) 200 Wh / mile car -- the situation becomes moot. Put 150 miles on the car in an unusual day. Put only 70 miles back in the car in a shortened overnight charge. The battery isn't full, but you've still got 120 miles of range. Do your normal (but still more than average) 40 miles the next day; down to 80. Put another 70 in overnight and it's back to full. At no time did you have less than 50 miles of range, and all your charging was at L1 rates only while you were in bed. Will that handle cross-country road trips? No. Can you drive to Grandma 200 miles away at the end of the day after a 40-mile round trip commute? No. If you need to do that sort of thing often or without warning, you'll need something more. But most people will look at that and decide they can pay exorbitant rates at somebody else's rapid charger the once or twice a year that sort of thing happens, or rent a car, or otherwise manage, rather than spend thousands on a dedicated charger. Of course, if your car can only go ~60 miles on a charge and takes a lot of Wh to do so, range anxiety starts to set in and rapid charging is a real way to assuage it. But if you can be confident that you'll wake up every morning with more miles in the tank than you'll need to drive, range anxiety vanishes. ...not to mention that rapid charging tends to shorten battery life b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iEYEARECAAYFAlVUTmgACgkQSWJjSgPNbM8jOgCfbV3MQ+1DtjeHCCpaUpq0Z0NF XcAAni7od5DFScCZs30vSJAOJQd31zE/ =JBvt -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For
[EVDL] EVLN: $77k Electric Tron Lightcycle Replica Sold @RM-Sotheby’s auction
http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2015/05/fully-functioning-tron-lightcycle-replica-sells-fo.html Fully Functioning Tron Lightcycle Replica Sells for $77,000 By Turner Minton | May 11, 2015 [image http://cdn.pastemagazine.com/www/articles/tron-lightcycle-main.jpg (Electric Tron Lightcycle Replica) ] Is this a steal or a complete waste of money? We’re still not sure. In what we’re assuming is a methodical plan to escape into the Grid undetected and drive off into the digital frontier with the sounds of Daft Punk playing overhead, one lucky man has purchased a life-sized replica of a Lightcyle from the movie Tron: Legacy. We don’t expect to see him again once he’s lost to the system of programs and gridbugs. Of course, he could always make a surprise return just before the production gets underway for TRON 3. If he promises to loan out his new whip, he’s sure to get a supporting role in the new feature. The news of the purchase is not all good for fans of the TRON franchise. The sale, which commenced over the weekend, went for the price of $77,000. The bike was sold at auction by RM Sotheby’s as part of the wider Andrews Collection. The highest bidder remained undisclosed, which is all the better for him or her as any getaway plan into the digital landscape would be foiled if their identity was blown. The bike is an exact replica of the Lightcycle seen in Legacy with a sleek, glossy design and light-up headlights. It also features a 96 volt direct-drive electric motor, an actual suspension and hydraulic brakes which means it can legitimately transport its passengers. The price before the auction was estimated to be around $25,000-40,000. The full description according to the website, can be read below: “This custom electric vehicle was built especially for the Andrews Collection to recreate the unique motorcycles seen in the 2010 movie TRON: Legacy. It is a highly compelling work of mobile art that has an enduring connection to pop culture. The bike was partially built by an outside firm and then sent to the Andrews’s own shop for completion. It is a fully functioning motorcycle that can be ridden, as it is powered by a direct-drive electric motor that has lithium batteries, which is mated to a computer-controlled digital electronic transmission. This custom TRON tribute boasts a very low seat height of 28.5 inches, making it easy to ride even at low speeds. The motorcycle is finished in black with a white stripe and boasts an imposing stance to match its performance. After its completion by the Andrews’ in 2012, the bike has only been ridden around their facilities to ensure that it remains in functioning condition. As such, it is in as-new condition and would be an ideal piece for any collection of movie memorabilia. It is unlikely that a similar motorcycle will ever be produced or made available for purchase, making this a truly unique opportunity.” For those still in want of a cycle of their own, those plans will have to wait until the buyer decides to return back to our reality. Until then, you can only daydream about the missed opportunity. [© pastemagazine.com] http://www.gizmag.com/tron-lightcycle-sale-auction/37429/ Tron Lightcycle sells for $77,000 May 10, 2015 [images http://www.gizmag.com/tron-lightcycle-sale-auction/37429/pictures Gallery RM Auctions' pre-sale guide for the chunky electric bike put the expected price at US$25,000 to $40,000 – it sold for US$77,000 as part of the Andrews Collection auction ] A working replica of the famous Lightcycle form the movie TRON: Legacy has smashed expectations by selling for US$77,000 as part of the record-breaking Andrews Collection auction. The TRON: Legacy motorcycle is powered by a 96 V direct-drive electric motor and features a computer-controlled throttle RM Auctions' pre-sale guide for the chunky electric bike put the expected price at US$25,000 to $40,000, with the result proving once again that a big screen appearance can have a big impact at the auction block. As we previously reported, the TRON: Legacy motorcycle is powered by a 96 V direct-drive electric motor with lithium-ion batteries and features a computer-controlled throttle. It's only only been ridden around the Andrews facilities to ensure that it remains functional ... and to look at it, functional does seem a stretch – imagine trying to navigate the local supermarket carpark on that thing. Still, this is about aesthetics and investment potential, and there's little doubt that the Lightcycle ticks those boxes. [© Gizmag 2015] ... http://mashable.com/2015/05/11/real-tron-light-cycle/ Diehard fan buys all-electric 'Tron' light cycle for $77000 [May 11, 2015] On Saturday, one diehard Tron fan splurged $77,000 on an all-electric light cycle. The functional motor bike is a faithful replica of the vehicle used in the 2010 ... ... http://gizmodo.com/this-tron-motorbike-is-totally-functional-and-yes-you-1695180526/1703532716/+chris-mills Fully-Functional
[EVDL] EVLN: Leaf EV is Cheaper Than a Free Hummer ice
http://www.torquenews.com/1/nissan-leaf-cheaper-free-hummer-math-explained
Nissan LEAF is Cheaper Than a Free Hummer, Math Explained
By Armen Hareyan 2015-05-08
[image
http://www.torquenews.com/sites/default/files/image-%5Buid%5D/%5Btitle-raw%5D/nissan_leaf_vs_hummer.jpg
(leaf_vs_hummer)
]
The general public thinks electric cars are still expensive and may be it
will take another ten 10 years to match the range and ICE price. However,
one Nissan LEAF owner does the following math, explaining how his LEAF is
cheaper than a free Hummer.
Thomas Crummett comments, doing the math on LEAF price vs a free Hummer
under our discussion at SF Bay Area LEAF Owners group.
Depends on how you look at it. MSRP is rarely a useful metric. When people
ask me why I bought an electric car, I tell them it's cheaper than a free
Hummer. Most people are quick to figure it out, but I do get some very
confused expressions. How can a $30,000 car be cheaper than free? Well, it
comes down to the Total Cost of Ownership (TCO). Gas isn't free. At an
average of 12k miles per year, and $4/gal for gas, that Hummer will use
about $18,000 in fuel alone. Add that to the $7500 federal, and $2500 state
tax rebates, and you're looking at a price delta of $2000. Given the Leaf
also doesn't need oil changes every 3000 miles, you're looking at another
~$2000 in oil changes, assuming you don't self-service. That's just after 5
years. Average car ownership is 7 years.
I think BEVs are already cheaper than ICE.
Edit: Not fair to assume the Leaf only recharges for free. Using the EPA
rated efficiency, and average electric price, the Leaf will use about $1400
in electricity over 5 years. As with all things, locations will vary, and
affect prices.
[© torquenews.com]
...
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_pagenode=413529query=subject%3Aevln+subject%3Aleaf+NOT+subject%3Aredays=0sort=date
Read more Leaf EVLN items on evdl
For EVLN posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/
http://autoomobile.com/news/2015-nissan-leaf-teslas-biggest-competition/10021168/
2015 Nissan Leaf: Tesla’s Biggest Competition
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d7443714-f404-11e4-99de-00144feab7de.html
A day in the life of a London electric car station
http://www.shorelinebeacon.com/2015/04/28/electric-vehicle-charging-stations-coming
Two dual L2 EVSE @saugeenshores.ca
http://www.thehour.com/business/bruce-bennett-nissan-unveils-dc-fast-charger/article_d3ed860a-119c-510d-a8d3-7bc08386d365.html
Nissan dealer installs free-4-all-plugins 2use L32 EVSE in Danbury UK
+
EVLN: We have already reached EV vs ice parity
{brucedp.150m.com}
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Leaf-EV-is-Cheaper-Than-a-Free-Hummer-ice-tp4675526.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
Hi Paul, I never wished this to start an argument as we are all I hope avid EVers. My post was simply to show that a well designed drive train is capable of high mileages even when tugging around a heavy body and I totally agree with other posts that removing weight and lowering the CD will inevitably reduce the need for higher capacity battery packs. The Volt/Ampera has a 16kWh pack but only allows around 10.4kWh to be used for longevity and many are covering over 150,000 miles with little or no capacity loss as I believe the loss is above the allowed amount. As for proving the range, yes you need to drive steadily but it is an art many EVers develop naturally and this forum link https://speakev.com/threads/50-mile-club.304/page-11 will show that it is exceeded regularly. What has surprised me is that my Volt/Ampera exceeds the range efficiency of my Lotus Elise EV which only weighs a tonne although is using an older drive train which uses the original gearbox fixed in third.. From: paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, 13 May 2015, 22:37 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. No they don't. 30 to 35 miles on battery. You would have to prove that, Of course the i-MiEV will go further if you drive 40 MPH. I was speaking of normal driving. From: Russ Sciville rustyb...@yahoo.co.uk To: Paul Dove dov...@bellsouth.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. Volt/Ampera's regularly do more than 50 miles on their 10.4kWh battery packs and that includes dragging round a backup four cylinder engine in a steel chassis. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150514/911e5138/attachment-0001.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] EVLN: We've already reached EV vs ice parity
http://www.torquenews.com/1/ev-vs-ice-parity-10-years-commenter-argues-we-have-already-reached-point
EV vs ICE parity in 10 years? Commenter Argues We Have Already Reached That
Point
By Armen Hareyan 2015-05-08
[image
http://www.torquenews.com/sites/default/files/image-%5Buid%5D/%5Btitle-raw%5D/tesla_model_s_charging.jpg
(Tesla charging)
]
TorqueNews has been getting some Fac ebook comments on regarding the topic
of Electric Car vs ICE price parity in 10 years. Here is one from Jamie Dow
who argues that perhaps we have already reached parity.
Jamie says Tesla is obviously the foremost example of an electric car, which
crushes the gasoline competition, though he doesn't like to talk about Tesla
as if its the only game in town, despite being an owner and investor. Below
is Jamie's comment in response to our earlier story about EV prices possibly
matching ICE prices in 10 years.
Well, in reviews and everything else, the Tesla seems to do much better than
the competition. Car of the Year, Automobile of the Year, World Green Car of
the Year, Consumer Reports' highest rating, Consumer Reports' highest
customer satisfaction rating, etc. etc. It's just a better car than anything
else you can buy at the same price. If that's the case, if the electric car
beats everything else that costs the same amount, then that suggests to me
that the electric car is already more than matching price with ICE
vehicles. Because, at the same price, it's better.
Tesla Model S destroys everything in the same price range, the 500e leases
between the Pop and Abarth and is compared more to the Abarth than the Pop
in driving fun, the Smart ED leases for only 139/mo, and basically
everything else leases for 199/mo which is a completely reasonable number
and they're typically way more pleasant to drive than any other car in that
range - with, of course, much lower running costs.
And lest we think that Tesla is an anomaly (though, it's the only car
engineered from the ground up to be fully electric, so it makes sense as an
anomaly), then the examples of other cars - which weren't even engineered
from the ground up as EVs - still being quite good in comparison to ICE cars
at the same price, suggests to me that we've already reached this parity
people keep talking about. Note that EVs tend to do well in customer
satisfaction ratings wherever they are in the price range - the Leaf does
very well in satisfaction too, and the Volt, despite being a PHEV (though
one of the larger batteries of PHEVs) also ranks consistently very high.
Now, I ask, if we haven't reached it, then what sign will tell us when we do
reach it? What's the metric by which we can claim to have reached it? I
think having cars that are well-reviewed against gasoline-powered price
peers, and that have higher customer satisfaction ratings, etc., suggests
that we already have. I can't think of another metric that would say we
haven't. Unless we are talking about the used car market for 10 year old
clunkers. In which case, yes, ICE is still ahead there and the convenience
of being able to charge at home instead of having to go to dirty gas
stations.
[© torquenews.com]
For EVLN posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/
http://autoomobile.com/news/2015-nissan-leaf-teslas-biggest-competition/10021168/
2015 Nissan Leaf: Tesla’s Biggest Competition
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d7443714-f404-11e4-99de-00144feab7de.html
A day in the life of a London electric car station
http://www.shorelinebeacon.com/2015/04/28/electric-vehicle-charging-stations-coming
Two dual L2 EVSE @saugeenshores.ca
http://www.thehour.com/business/bruce-bennett-nissan-unveils-dc-fast-charger/article_d3ed860a-119c-510d-a8d3-7bc08386d365.html
Nissan dealer installs free-4-all-plugins 2use L32 EVSE in Danbury UK
+
EVLN: Nissan Leaf EV is Cheaper Than a Free Hummer ice
{brucedp.150m.com}
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-We-ve-already-reached-EV-vs-ice-parity-tp4675527.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] EVjobs: Tesla NV Giga-battery-factory, LG Chem MI battery plant
$22.79-$51.83hr Tesla Giga-battery-factory job openings NV
LG Chem holding job fair in effort to double workforce
http://www.valuewalk.com/2015/05/tesla-job-openings-gigafactory/
Tesla Motors Inc ... Posts New Job Openings For Gigafactory
Tesla's gigafactory is finally taking shape, which is evident from the fresh
job openings posted on the company’s career site
By: Aman Jain May 13, 2015
Tesla ... has posted 30 new job openings for its $5 billion lithium-ion
battery making facility popularly known as the gigafactory. Until now, the
gigafactory had only construction workers, but now the requirement of roles
and responsibilities is expanding. The openings posted range from technical
positions such as engineers and technicians to openings in chain development
and facility management, says a report from the Reno Gazette-Journal.
Tesla Gigafactory
Tesla hiring more staff for gigafactory
The Palo Alto-based company offered a detailed description of each position
available on its career site. There is no word about the wages and salaries
employees will receive, but Tesla Motors Inc, in its original application to
the state, detailed that wages will range from $22.79 per hour to $51.83 per
hour.
On its career site, Tesla posted openings for supply chain, Equipment
maintenance technician, Inventory Analyst, Facilities Mechanical Engineer,
Industrial Engineer, Manufacturing Engineer, Facilities Manager, Process
Engineering Manager, Production Control Manager, Quality Manager, Senior
Technical Recruiter, Production Supervisor, Training Associate, Workplace
Supervisor and a position for Buyer. Jobs are listed as full-time positions
only.
Gigafactory– a lot depends on it
According to the information furnished by Tesla to the State of Nevada, the
company hired 12 employees for the gigafactory in the first quarter of the
year. The total salary paid to those workers was shown as $314,000 of the
$80.6 million that the company invested in the gigafactory during the first
quarter of 2015, says the report. Additionally, the company has invested
around $143.2 million in the battery plant to date, as per the latest
numbers from the company.
This is not the first time, when the company is hiring for its multi-billion
dollar gigafactory. It is estimated that there will be around 6,500 workers
at the gigafactory by 2020. With an expanded scale of production, Tesla will
see a drop of approximately 30% in the cost of batteries for its electric
cars and for its stationary solar energy storage units, the Powerwall and
Powerpack. However, Tesla’sgGigafactory will not be unique, as Chinese
electric vehicle maker BYD is also constructing its own battery factory ...
[© valuewalk.com]
http://woodtv.com/2015/05/13/lg-chem-holding-job-fair-in-effort-to-double-workforce/
LG Chem holding job fair in effort to double workforce
May 13, 2015
HOLLAND, Mich. (WOOD) — LG Chem is holding another job fair as part of their
effort to double the size of its production workforce in 2015.
The company says it’s adding production equipment and new processes and
expects to employ several hundred people by the end of the year, according
to a press release from LG Chem — which supplies EV batteries for several
automakers.
LG Chem is holding a second job fair on Thursday to help fill those
positions. The job fair will take place from 9 a.m. until 6 p.m.at the
company’s facility, located at 1 LG Way in Holland.
Candidates should come prepared with a copy of a recent resume and may
pre-apply online at lgchemjobs.com or at the job fair. Those interested in
operator positions should bring their WorkKeys certificate if they already
have one, otherwise WorkKeys testing can be scheduled at the job fair.
Open positions include:
- Technical Operators, starting at $13/hour (Production, QA,
Shipping/Receiving)
- Maintenance positions (Electrical and Mechanical)
- Engineer positions in Production, QA Facilities
- Production Supervisors
- Sr. Technical Operators
More than 250 people attended the first job fair.
[© woodtv.com]
For EVLN posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/
{brucedp.150m.com}
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVjobs-Tesla-NV-Giga-battery-factory-LG-Chem-MI-battery-plant-tp4675531.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Apple Developing EV Battery
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/proof-apple-secretly-developing-car-16171 .html ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
