Re: [EVDL] Weird Nissan Leaf behavior: 3rd charging lightblinks after new pack install: cold weather package...

[Chris Meier via EV]

Thank you, Cor.
-- 
-Chris

On July 7, 2017 11:50:56 PM CDT, Cor van de Water via EV  
wrote:
>BTW,
>You can immediately see it if you know what to look for:
>left of the steering wheel are 3 black buttons. The middle one is the
>timer override ("charge now")
>and the button closest to the steering wheel is the steering wheel
>heater, it literally looks like a
>roasting steering wheel with a pictogram of a steering wheel and 3
>squiggly lines rising from it...
>
>-Original Message-
>From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de
>Water via EV
>Sent: Friday, July 07, 2017 7:55 PM
>To: Chris Meier
>Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Weird Nissan Leaf behavior: 3rd charging
>lightblinks
>after new pack install: cold weather package...
>
>Chris:
>1- battery heaters (originally 2011 Leafs have a 3rd battery connector
>for this but apparently since 2012 the battery heaters are controlled
>by
>the LBC temp measurement and then engaging a small contactor to send
>the
>HV to the heaters internally, so no 3rd connector and external relay,
>which makes the battery indistinguishable as whether it has heaters,
>other than from the part nr. Apparently also the LBC programming is
>different)
>
>2- seat heaters
>3- steering wheel heater
>Hope this clarifies,
>Cor
>
>> On Jul 7, 2017, at 7:35 PM, Chris Meier  wrote:
>> 
>> Cor, could you please describe the options/features/differences that
>make up the cold weather package? 
>> --
>> -Chris
>> 
>>> On July 7, 2017 5:58:46 PM CDT, Cor van de Water via EV
> wrote:
>>> Exactly,
>>> 
>>> Either I will find a way to re-program my current LBC to support the
>
>>> cold weather package
>>> 
>>> or I will have to find an LBC from a cold weather package battery (I
>
>>> might have one by next week)
>>> 
>>> and I have even considered adding a little circuit that disables one
>
>>> contactor as soon as the ignition is off,
>>> 
>>> but I figured that it will need to be enabled when either Charging
>is
>
>>> active or Ignition is on, so it needs to
>>> 
>>> combine those two signals and then use that combined signal to
>enable
>
>>> a contactor.
>>> 
>>> This will likely throw an error when the car tries to charge the 12V
>
>>> battery from the HV pack.
>>> 
>>> And I do not know if the car will turn off and sleep if it can't 
>>> charge the 12V battery,
>>> 
>>> so it might drain the 12V battery instead of the HV pack.
>>> 
>>> When putting a disconnect on the 12V battery, you also make it 
>>> impossible to open (or lock) the car with the FOB,
>>> 
>>> so every time you want to use the car, you need to pull out the 
>>> mechanical key, open the driver door
>>> 
>>> (the only door with a mechanical lock), pull the hood release, open 
>>> the hood, reconnect the 12V and close hood.
>>> 
>>> When parking the car for a longer period, you would need to: stop
>the
>
>>> car (not turn off) and pull hood release,
>>> 
>>> open hood and disconnect 12V battery, close hood, then get in the 
>>> car, lock all doors manually, raise windows, turn car off so it
>dies,
>>> 
>>> get out and then lock driver door manually with key.
>>> 
>>> Not to mention setting time and radio stations...
>>> 
>>> There must be a easier way...
>>> 
>>> (Of course, I should have matched the car with cold weather package 
>>> with the battery, if I had known in advance)
>>> 
>>> Cor.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From: damon henry [mailto:damonhe...@hotmail.com]
>>> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2017 5:44 AM
>>> To: ROBERT; Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Weird Nissan Leaf behavior: 3rd charging light 
>>> blinks after new pack install: cold weather package...
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> You do realize this is for switching off the 12v SLA battery usually
>
>>> when it is not under load right?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I've used a bunch of these over the years and they are fairly beefy 
>>> for the job they are asked to do.  I even have one on my motorcycle 
>>> and it easily carries my full traction pack voltage and current 48v
>400 amps.
>>> I don't expect it to switch that off under load, but I put it in the
>
>>> circuit so that I could completely disconnect my motor controller 
>>> during charging.  I have a properly rated contactor on the other
>side
>
>>> of the circuit for any emergency shut offs.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> These switches are more than up to the task of disconnecting the 12 
>>> volt battery for years without fail.  I'm just not sure if Cor is
>the
>
>>> type to settle for an ugly hack like this to a complicated problem. 
>
>>> He seems more like the type to grind through and uncover a proper 
>>> solution, but even if that is the case this could be a temporary 
>>> solution.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Damon
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From: ROBERT 
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 6, 2017 12:30 PM
>>> To: Cor van de Water; damon 

Re: [EVDL] Weird Nissan Leaf behavior: 3rd charging light blinks after new pack install: cold weather package...

[Chris Meier via EV]

Cor, could you please describe the options/features/differences that make up 
the cold weather package? 
-- 
-Chris

On July 7, 2017 5:58:46 PM CDT, Cor van de Water via EV  
wrote:
>Exactly,
>
>Either I will find a way to re-program my current LBC to support the
>cold weather package
>
>or I will have to find an LBC from a cold weather package battery (I
>might have one by next week)
>
>and I have even considered adding a little circuit that disables one
>contactor as soon as the ignition is off,
>
>but I figured that it will need to be enabled when either Charging is
>active or Ignition is on, so it needs to
>
>combine those two signals and then use that combined signal to enable a
>contactor.
>
>This will likely throw an error when the car tries to charge the 12V
>battery from the HV pack.
>
>And I do not know if the car will turn off and sleep if it can't charge
>the 12V battery,
>
>so it might drain the 12V battery instead of the HV pack.
>
>When putting a disconnect on the 12V battery, you also make it
>impossible to open (or lock) the car with the FOB,
>
>so every time you want to use the car, you need to pull out the
>mechanical key, open the driver door
>
>(the only door with a mechanical lock), pull the hood release, open the
>hood, reconnect the 12V and close hood.
>
>When parking the car for a longer period, you would need to: stop the
>car (not turn off) and pull hood release,
>
>open hood and disconnect 12V battery, close hood, then get in the car,
>lock all doors manually, raise windows, turn car off so it dies,
>
>get out and then lock driver door manually with key.
>
>Not to mention setting time and radio stations...
>
>There must be a easier way...
>
>(Of course, I should have matched the car with cold weather package
>with
>the battery, if I had known in advance)
>
>Cor.
>
> 
>
>From: damon henry [mailto:damonhe...@hotmail.com] 
>Sent: Friday, July 07, 2017 5:44 AM
>To: ROBERT; Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Weird Nissan Leaf behavior: 3rd charging light
>blinks after new pack install: cold weather package...
>
> 
>
>You do realize this is for switching off the 12v SLA battery usually
>when it is not under load right?  
>
> 
>
>I've used a bunch of these over the years and they are fairly beefy for
>the job they are asked to do.  I even have one on my motorcycle and it
>easily carries my full traction pack voltage and current 48v 400 amps.
>I don't expect it to switch that off under load, but I put it in the
>circuit so that I could completely disconnect my motor controller
>during
>charging.  I have a properly rated contactor on the other side of the
>circuit for any emergency shut offs.
>
> 
>
>These switches are more than up to the task of disconnecting the 12
>volt
>battery for years without fail.  I'm just not sure if Cor is the type
>to
>settle for an ugly hack like this to a complicated problem.  He seems
>more like the type to grind through and uncover a proper solution, but
>even if that is the case this could be a temporary solution.
>
> 
>
>Damon
>
> 
>
> 
>
>
>
>From: ROBERT 
>Sent: Thursday, July 6, 2017 12:30 PM
>To: Cor van de Water; damon henry; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Weird Nissan Leaf behavior: 3rd charging light
>blinks after new pack install: cold weather package... 
>
> 
>
>A battery cut off switch with only weak mechanical specs.  No maximum
>number of switching operations, etc. Now, that is interesting.
>
> 
>
>
>
>From: EV  on behalf of damon henry via EV
>
>Sent: Thursday, July 6, 2017 7:37 AM
>To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Weird Nissan Leaf behavior: 3rd charging light
>blinks after new pack install: cold weather package... 
>
> 
>
>Hi Cor,
>
>
>I'm not sure how much help you will get on a proper solution as you are
>kind of out there on the bleeding edge with the Leaf battery
>replacement
>thing and usually the one providing the answers :)
>
>
>A possible hack might be installing a battery cutoff switch for the 12
>volt battery.  Harbor Freight sells them for $8.
>
>https://www.harborfreight.com/battery-cutoff-switch-63425.html 
>
>  
>
>Battery Cutoff Switch - Harbor Freight Tools
> 
>
>www.harborfreight.com
>
>Amazing deals on this Battery Cut Off Switch at Harbor Freight. Quality
>tools & low prices.
>
>
>
>
>Damon
>
>
>
>From: EV  on behalf of Cor van de Water via
>EV 
>Sent: Monday, July 3, 2017 6:11:47 PM
>To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>Subject: [EVDL] Weird Nissan Leaf behavior: 3rd charging light blinks
>after new pack install: cold weather package...
>
>OK, I did something to my Leaf that I 

Re: [EVDL] V2G is dead. L1 charging at work is a win-win

[Chris Meier via EV]

I've read that the Nissan can do it with the right firmware. Nissan had at 
least a demo V2H.
-- 
-Chris

On June 7, 2017 10:55:42 PM CDT, John Lussmyer  wrote:
>On Wed Jun 07 18:29:03 PDT 2017 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>>Ignoring advances in tech, a couple J1772 plugged in V2G/V2H capable
>EVs per block could be enough to smooth out neighborhood subgrids from
>the startup/shutdown of household loads and improve voltage stability
>and reduce grid generation needs to react as quickly. I imagine any
>solar generation could also be modulated.
>
>Except that J1772 is one-way only.  You would need an inverter in the
>car to drive power back the other way. 
>
>
>--
>
>Bobcats and Cougars, oh my!  http://john.casadelgato.com/Pets
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Re: [EVDL] V2G is dead. L1 charging at work is a win-win

[Chris Meier via EV]

Not all EVs must remain plugged in at all times. 'Enough' need to be plugged 
in. 

Ignoring advances in tech, a couple J1772 plugged in V2G/V2H capable EVs per 
block could be enough to smooth out neighborhood subgrids from the 
startup/shutdown of household loads and improve voltage stability and reduce 
grid generation needs to react as quickly. I imagine any solar generation could 
also be modulated. 

Point being it doesn't have to be an all or nothing game.

Agreed on the L1 demand side. Let it be modulated. But also provide some L2 and 
QC as human needs can be unpredictable, and when urgently needed must not be 
throttled. 


-- 
-Chris

On June 7, 2017 5:25:02 PM CDT, Robert Bruninga via EV  
wrote:
>I maintain that V2G is dead on arrival.  It cannot work unless vehicles
>are
>plugged in all day, and every single one of them would need 50 Amp very
>expensive L3 "stations".
>
>YET the Demand-response side of grid balancing is wide-open.  And can
>work
>with nothing but rows of 120v L1 outlets at work parking.  But it
>demands
>"charging-at-work".  That is, cars are plugged in all day to simple L1
>120v
>outlets while parked and are available for grid DUMPING of lower cost
>energy
>during the day as peak solar and peak wind provide.
>
>It’s a win-win-win.  The Drivers win, people sho live in condos or
>rentals
>without home charging win, the company wins by being able to level its
>peak
>loads and the grid wins by being leveled.
>
>Already in California, Electricity is more plentiful (should be
>cheaper) in
>the day due to solar than it is at night.  That's when we need to be
>charging EV's at work!
>
>Its just a bridge to far to expect people to give the grid access to
>their
>$10,000 battery with little in return (V2G)
>
>Bob, WB4APR
>
>-Original Message-
>From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de
>Water
>via EV
>Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2017 5:45 PM
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20170607
>
>There are generally two different areas of V2G (Vehicle to Grid) that
>each
>have their own characteristics and are totally different in their
>impacts:
>
>1. would better be called Grid Storage, this is where the grid is
>supplied
>with less generation capacity than what is needed for longer periods of
>time
>so that a storage buffer is needed to be filled during low consumption
>periods (nights or morning) and is emptied during the afternoon/evening
>peak
>consumption period, so it is a daily cycling application. This is often
>done
>in conjunction with generation types that cannot be controlled such as
>wind
>and solar, they might deliver enough energy to balance the daily need,
>but
>not always at every point in time, hence the need for buffering. But
>the
>same thing can be designed using traditional generation that has lower
>capacity than the afternoon/evening peak needed, but which can deliver
>a
>total amount of energy throughout the day to balance daily consumption
>
>2. this would better be called brownout protection or stability
>control.
>There are no large amounts of energy drawn from the battery ever, since
>the
>grid can at any point in time generally deliver enough energy to cover
>consumption. But there are short moments when consumption spikes or
>generation is switching or starting up, where a short burst of power is
>needed to avoid the voltage/frequency dropping below spec. Truly
>brown-out
>protection to bridge over short periods (usually less than 1 second) of
>high
>power bursts.
>
>The second case is very different from the first one.
>The first one simply puts extra *full* cycles on the pack, wearing it
>out
>faster.
>The second one is virtually not measurable as added cycles, it behaves
>similar to a vehicle driving around with regen braking: if you need to
>slow
>down a little and then acclerate, so you put energy back into your
>battery
>for a second and then accelerate again to pull that energy back out -
>those
>micro-cycles are hardly noticeable, especially when done while the pack
>is
>near half-full.
>Since V2G allows the *grid* to communicate to the charger to stretch
>out the
>charging of the battery over the time until the car is needed again, it
>might actually *prolong* the life of the pack, compared to simply
>charging
>full power as soon as plugged in. So, the second case of V2G might be
>beneficial to the EV owner, not just in preserving his battery life,
>but
>also providing a more stable grid and for being *paid* to make (part
>of) his
>battery capacity available for this.
>Just my view,
>Cor.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Michael Ross
>via EV
>Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2017 11:38 AM
>To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20170607
>
>​Regarding the post: "EVLN: Researchers found delayed ToU G2V had a
>negligible impact on EV pack capacity ​.

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20170607

[Chris Meier via EV]

Who paid for the study? 
-- 
-Chris

On June 7, 2017 1:38:12 PM CDT, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:
>​Regarding the post: "EVLN: Researchers found delayed ToU G2V had a
>negligible impact on EV pack
>capacity
>​.
>New study finds V2G discharging harmful to EV batteries​
>​" found in a paper entitled"​
>
>
>​"​
>Durability and reliability of electric vehicle batteries under electric
>utility grid operations: Bidirectional charging impact analysis
>​;" Journal of Power Sources, Matthieu Dubarry​
>
>
>​There is this comment which addresses my concern about the usefulness
>of
>the study.​
>
>"... Since battery degradation is path-dependent, any changes in usage
>can
>lead to different degradation mechanisms and drastically influence the
>reliability of the batteries.”
>
>​I am waiting for the full text to look closer at the charge and
>discharge
>histories. I am not sure the path(s) they chose represent anything
>useful.
>Too many possible configurations and charge/discharge histories to say
>if
>grid connected EV packs necessarily must suffer this damage.​
>
>​BTW, the article doesn't come up (needs subscription?).  I used the
>info
>in Bruce's transcription to find a source for the article. Hopefully it
>will be shared without cost.​
>
>
>​Mike​
>
>
>On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 4:42 AM, brucedp5 via EV 
>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.
>>
>nabble.com/EVLN-Opel-Ampera-e-EV-Is-The-Lastest-Popemobile-td4687007.html
>> EVLN: Opel Ampera-e EV Is The Lastest Popemobile
>> The current Pope Francis has been known to favor more low-key modes
>of
>> transportation, but now he's received a more frugal kind of car
>altogether
>> ...
>>
>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.
>>
>nabble.com/EVLN-Bolt-EVs-gt-A-PIECE-OF-THE-2-BILLION-PIE-td4687006.html
>> EVLN: Bolt EVs> A PIECE OF THE $2 BILLION PIE
>> Barry Woods is all charged up about electric vehicles in Maine
>> Woods is the only Mainer who has a full-time job promoting electric
>> vehicles. As director of electric vehicle innovation for ReVision
>Energy of
>> Portland, the state's ...
>>
>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.
>> nabble.com/EVLN-Researchers-found-delayed-ToU-G2V-had-a-
>> negligible-impact-on-EV-pack-capacity-td4687005.html
>> EVLN: Researchers found delayed ToU G2V had a negligible impact on EV
>pack
>> capacity
>> New study finds V2G discharging harmful to EV batteries
>>
>> +
>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.
>> nabble.com/Mendocino-County-CA-Adds-New-Electric-Vehicle-
>> Charging-Stations-td4687004.html
>> Mendocino_County-CA Adds New Electric-Vehicle Charging Stations ...
>> ... upping the ante on its longstanding commitment to environmental
>> sustainability by opening the second of a planned 14 electric-vehicle
>(EV)
>> charging stations ...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://evdl.org/evln/
>> For all EVLN EV-newswire posts
>>
>>
>> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-
>> discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-EV-newswire-
>> posts-for-20170607-tp4687008.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive
>at
>> Nabble.com.
>> ___
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>> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
>> group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
>
>
>-- 
>To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
>Thomas A. Edison
>
>
>A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
>*Warren Buffet*
>
>Michael E. Ross
>(919) 585-6737 Land
>(919) 576-0824  Mobile
>and
>Google Phone
>
>michael.e.r...@gmail.com
>
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Re: [EVDL] Ryobi RM480e 38 in. Battery Electric Riding Lawn Mower

[Chris Meier via EV]

Wheelchair batteries. 
LPC12-75.
-- 
-Chris

On February 16, 2017 12:25:00 AM CST, ken via EV  wrote:
>Far as I can tell this is a Lead Sled. It has really nice features.
>
>made in china 
>
>http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ryobi-RM480e-38-in-Battery-Electric-Riding-Lawn-Mower-RY48110/300246266
>
>http://www.meangreenproducts.com/ride-on-ztrs/
>
>made in america !!  Very high quality...
>
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Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or interior/exterior/suspension parts?

[Chris Meier via EV]

I was told by the dealer that the shorting of the 12v leads is one of the 
approved steps/workarounds in the TCU update.

Afterwards the gauges were off until one drive/charge cycle.
-- 
-Chris

On January 26, 2017 12:29:37 PM CST, Cor van de Water via EV 
 wrote:
>The Supercaps that you mentioned are present in every car with
>electrically operated brakes. I know of the supercap bank in the trunk
>of every Prius since pretty early on (I think the "Classic" 2001-2003
>does not have it, but I am certain that since 2004 it is wht allows you
>to apply brakes a few times when suddenly the aux battery goes out
>while
>driving).
>I checked the wiring diagram and indeed there is a "Brake Power Supply
>Backup Unit (B15)" on the diagram. Typically those will *not* feed
>power
>back to 12V aux battery, so this should not be the reason a car behaves
>differently with a short or long disconnect of the aux battery.
>What might be the case is a capacitor on the memory of a computer that
>is designed to withstand a short disconnect, to allow you to change
>your
>battery without losing all your settings.
>Typically such a capacitor is not feeding back to the aux battery
>either, so in any case clicking the loose battery wires together should
>make very little difference in how long it takes for the car to behave
>differently.
>
>Also, the LBC validation happens without disconnecting the aux battery.
>I know for sure as I never disconnect the 12V battery and when I
>swapped
>my pack for a complete replacement pack from Washington State, the
>yellow light on the dash came on and my Leaf was in Limp mode while I
>only disconnected the (non-energized, due to the contactors in the
>pack)
>HV lines and the control bus.
>Just wheeling the original pack back under my Leaf and swapping the
>connectors removed the Limp mode, so I know for a fact that the Leaf
>validates the battery upon pressing the power button while the aux
>battery is connected continuously, so it seems that you were looking at
>the wrong thing.
>Probably a trace of the EV bus as soon as the power button is depressed
>(when a *lot* of communication is happening) will tell the story.
>You may start the trace as soon as the brake is pressed.
>Good luck!
>
>Cor van de Water 
>Chief Scientist 
>Proxim Wireless 
>  
>office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
>XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 
>
>http://www.proxim.com
>
>This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential
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>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Collin Kidder
>via EV
>Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 8:02 AM
>To: Tom Parker; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or
>interior/exterior/suspension parts?
>
>10 minutes should have been enough. Chris suggested shorting the
>positive and negative together to drain any capacitance and force the
>ECUs to reset but I cannot imagine an ECU lasting 10 minutes on its
>input capacitors. Though, I think that the leaf actually has a super
>capacitor behind the rear seats so it might take a long time to drain
>that off. It might be worth a try to make sure the 12v wiring is
>really, truly drained. I did some work with adding a secondary battery
>pack and initially made a number of bad mistakes that caused critical
>ECU faults. Disconnecting the battery for a few minutes would not
>allow me to clear the faults but disconnecting all day and trying it
>again the next day would work. I think eventually someone suggested
>shorting the battery terminals and doing that does allow for resets
>more quickly. Though, if I'm right about the super cap being for the
>12V power then you might want to discharge through a power resistor
>and not just click the terminals together. It doesn't hurt to use a
>resistor in either case. It's better for the car anyway.
>
>Otherwise, it does appear we're looking at a message that is more
>continuous. That doesn't mean that it necessarily happens quickly. On
>the Tesla Model S there is a series of messages that transmit the VIN
>number of the vehicle, presumably for authentication with various
>components. These messages are only sent something like every 5
>minutes. So, they'll show up as messages that aren't necessarily one
>time and done but they've got a very long interval between
>transmission. If you have the means to check transmission interval you
>might try that. Actually, I have captures from various Leafs on the
>powertrain bus and I do have the means to check the interval so I'll
>check and see if I can find messages that maybe don't get transmitted
>so often. A validation message might 

Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or interior/exterior/suspension parts?

[Chris Meier via EV]

Have you tried assuring the processors all reset by shorting the disconnected 
12v leads?
-- 
-Chris

On January 26, 2017 3:33:24 AM CST, Tom Parker via EV  wrote:
>On 24/01/17 23:25, Tom Parker via EV wrote:
>
>> On my car, there is only one frame that isn't repeated continuously 
>> after startup (0x603 is sent once, with a single byte payload which
>is 
>> 00 in my captures).
>>
>> I'll try disconnecting the 12v battery tomorrow and see if anything 
>> different happens at when it's connected, or during the first
>startup.
>
>I removed the 12V battery and there was no activity on the EV CAN bus 
>when it was reconnected. There were also no new messages when I turned 
>the car on, and other than 0x603, they all streamed continuously. I 
>waited quite a long time (10 minutes maybe) before reconnecting the
>battery.
>
>I guess this means the BMS authentication is in the repeating messages,
>
>or it is triggered by some other event than disconnecting the 12V 
>battery, or you can have the 12V battery disconnected for a very long 
>time without breaking the BMS authentication.
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Re: [EVDL] EVSE's everywhere or long range batteries?

[Chris Meier via EV]

*Some* L2 would still be desirable. 
It can help when there are not enough L1/outlets.
But sometimes you want to make an unplanned trip and an hour or two of L2 on 
site can make the difference. 
-- 
-Chris

On November 6, 2016 7:35:41 AM CST, Robert Bruninga via EV  
wrote:
>> Sorry Robert, I completely disagree with you.
>> most people ultimately won't care if they are driving an ICE or an
>EV,
>> they bought the car for transportation and that's it.
>> If they need to go to a quick charge station once a week,
>> that's status quo for them. No big deal.
>
>I think many people are smarter than that.  Once people with a daily 20
>or
>30 mile commute realize that they are spending an extra $15,000 for a
>200
>mile battery that they never use, when a $5,000 can do the same job we
>will
>start to see the practicality come back in to the car purchasing
>decision.
>
>> there are plenty of people who will never have a fixed location to
>charge.
>
>And so they will likely continue to need an ICE.  But if the other 80%
>of
>us switch to electric look what a boon to emissions reduction that will
>be.  And those tht can afford to buy a 200 mile EV will.  But they
>should
>be aware that there will never be enough fast chargers and they will
>waste
>a good portion of their lives trying to find a place to charge and then
>have to waste a half hour waiting for it to work.
>
>Most people are smarter than that.
>
>> At some point, the cost of building very high speed level 3 charge
>stations
>> will be cheaper than providing L2 charging in parking places.
>
>There is lunacy in that vision as well.  It makes no sense to put L2
>chargers in workplace, airport, trainstation parking spaces.  Or any
>place
>where cars spend 8 hours a day parked.  The L2 is a complete waste
>there,
>when a standard 120v oulet can do the same job.  In 8 hours, an L1
>ouitlet
>(or cord) can provide 40 miles of range.  More than the daily usage of
>the
>average american.
>
>And cars spend 23 hours a day parked somewhere.
>
>Bob
>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
>> Cc:
>> Sent: 05-Nov-16 9:20:07 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Local dealer $1k-deposit-signup(reserve): Bolt
>EV's In
>> Production
>>
>> Seriously?
>>>
>>>  if you don't have access to an EVSE, you can't charge your Bolt.

>>>
>>> It is foolish for anyone to buy an EV if he does not have a parking
>place
>>> and a place to charge it everyday. (At home or at work).  Fast
>charging is
>>> only for emergencies and trips.  It is UNSUSTAINABLE to think that
>EV's
>>> are
>>> going to be fueled using the old gas-station model (which is the
>ultimate
>>> in inconveneince that the EV (charged while parked at home or at
>work)  is
>>> best at eliminating!)
>>>
>>> Bob, WB4APR
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 8:02 AM, paul dove via EV 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Because the government forced them to make it

  Sent from my iPhone

  > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:00 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV
>
  wrote:
  >
  > I looked at the Bolt last night on line, spent a little while
>going
 thru
  the
  > stats, various reviews etc.
  >
  > One thing that totally astounded me was that the CSS Inlet and
>HV
  charging set
  > up costs about $500 and ALSO the Level 1 charger costs another
>$500 or
  so. That
  > means that if you don't have access to an EVSE, you can't charge
>your
  Bolt.
  >
  > Come on now folks, is this company really serious about entering
>into
  the EV
  > market? Why produce an EV it you won't even supply a way to
>charge
 it...
  >
  > My 2 watts opinion...
  >
  > Rush Dougherty
  > Tucson AZ 85719
  >
  >
  >
  >
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Re: [EVDL] Used EV's for sale on Autotrader

[Chris Meier via EV]

Is there any data available on what price the vehicles go for at auction? 
-- 
-Chris

On August 21, 2016 10:00:45 AM CDT, Tom Keenan via EV  wrote:
>A big part of the increased availability of used EVs is that most
>electrics (according to an October 2015 CNBC article, around 80% in
>2013 and 2014, currently around 75%) are leased as opposed to sold
>outright. This compares with about 28% of ICE vehicles being leased. 
>As these three-year leases end, they are either auctioned off or sold
>by the dealership they were returned to. 
>I haven't seen any data yet on the 'loyalty' rate of lease returnees
>either getting another EV or getting oil regressing back to fossil
>fuel.
>
>Tom Keenan
>
>> On Aug 21, 2016, at 1:43 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV
> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 21 Aug 2016 at 0:28, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>>> 
>>> Bob is right there are a lot of used EVs out there.
>> 
>> Do we know what that means?  Does it mean that a lot of people bought
>EVs, 
>> and then decided they didn't like them, or they didn't work for them?
> Did 
>> they then go back to ICEVs?  
>> 
>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>> EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] Piezo-power> 10mi of freeway could charge all the EVs inBurbank-CA(?)

[Chris Meier via EV]

I suggest using this on down hill segments only (no matter how small of slope), 
any energy extracted from the vehicle forward motion will reduce any braking  
(engine or pedal induced) that might be applied to maintain speed.
Since the repeated rise fall pattern will increase suspension movement,  might 
as well consider the extractable energy onboard, too, rather than bleed that 
off as just heat.
-- 
-Chris

On August 27, 2016 4:02:44 PM CDT, via EV  wrote:
>First I have to explain that I am an Agile coach. My job is to teach
>companies and their people to treat EVERYTHING as an unproven
>hypothesis. Then the work is to either prove or disprove that
>hypothesis through conducting experiments. The experiments are to be as
>simple and as inexpensive as possible to yield valid results. The
>result of each experiment yields new data, and a new set of hypotheses.
>New experiments are then set up to either prove or disprove these. The
>process is repeated as needed until a clear strategic path forward is
>identified. Guessing and assumptions are no longer allowed to be used
>to determine decisions because they stifle innovation. 
>
>Therefore, in this case I cannot dismiss the piezo approach until
>sufficient experiments are run that prove or disprove whether it
>represents a viable approach. 
>
>> The movement of the Piezo elements is not
>> instantaneous, in fact they will generate the most energy when they
>only yield slowly to the force, such that the largest possible force
>over the largest possible time can act on them. 
>
>While this is optimal, it it a requirement? In other words, would the
>Piezo element still generate energy of it were forced to act more
>quickly? In other words, could there be an optimum reaction response
>that balances the energy generated while reducing the "uphill effect"?
>Just wondering... 
>
>Also, wouldn't the speed of the vehicle significantly impact your
>example? The ratio to time to travel the slab relative to the response
>time of the Piezo would see to differ drastically between 15 mph rush
>hour traffic and 70 mph off peak traffic flow. If the response time
>were forced tom e a constant, some less that ideal response time would
>have to be selected based on average speed or some traffic flow/speed
>optimization. 
> 
>What about only placing the piezo elements at the far end of the
>concrete slab? And adjust the static angle of the slab to minimize "the
>uphill effect"? Each slab could have the far end higher than the near
>end yet the total would actually be level or even a very slight
>downhill. Of course, driving the wrong direction would be a very
>unpleasant experience. The city just ground down an entire road near my
>house because the soil expansion actually produced this effect. I
>avoided driving down that section until they fixed it because the ride
>was so unpleasant. 
>
>The Piezo I saw demonstrated only had a very small range of motion, say
>less that 1/16" and could react nearly instantaneously by only
>compressing it between your fingers while generating enough energy to
>light a led. 
>
>Put a set if these at the far end supporting a 30' slab of concrete.
>The rise would be 1/16" over 30'. That comes out to something like
>0.00017 degrees of rise. Let's say a 4000 lb vehicle is on that slab.
>If the slab were perfectly level, all 4000 lbs would result in a pure
>downward force to deflect the Piezo element with no additional rolling
>resistance due to a rise. The force vector changes with the 0.00017
>degree rise. Now 3999 lbs of force are available to deflect the Piezo
>element and 1 lb of force is wasted due to the rise. The difference in
>force vectors is more than 3 orders of magnitude! Off the top of my
>head, 3 orders of magnitude seems insignificant enough to dismiss as
>"noise". I would guess that friction in general and the rolling
>resistance of the tires are larger that that. I wonder what the drag of
>disk brakes is? I would be willing to wager that I could attach a rope
>to that vehicle and manually pull it against that load for an entire
>day. Again, experimen
>ts would need to be run to prove or disprove this, but being able to
>use 3999 lbs to generate energy at the cost of only 1 lb seems like a
>pretty good trade off to me. Obviously not perpetual or free energy but
>awfully close. At least enough to warrant investigation through
>experimentation before dismissing the idea completely. 
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Re: [EVDL] Pop-starting a stick shift?

[Chris Meier via EV]

Most kids carry a 5V 2A+ usb battery. If only it had a 12v port it might be 
enough to get the car to fire with a push. How many amps does a 'dead' ICEv 
need to power up? 5V to 12v boost converters are pretty cheap. They would only 
need to run for a few minutes. 
It would be funnier to strap a 100w+ PV panel onto the hood jumpered in,  then 
push start.


-- 
-Chris

On August 18, 2016 9:27:45 AM CDT, Robert Bruninga via EV  
wrote:
>This is the only car group I know.  So pardon the off-topic post.
>
>
>
>A young kid with a minicooper flagged me down to jump start his car.  I
>told him, I’d be happy to if he could figure out how to use my 400V
>pack….
>
>
>
>Then I asked, well, have you tried just rolling it and popping the
>clutch
>to get it started.  He looked at me with blank stare.  I smugly said,
>sure,
>it’s a stick shift, so we just get it rolling and pop the clutch and it
>will start.
>
>
>
>It wouldn’t.  Then I began to realize, that all the cars I have done
>this
>with in the past DID NOT HAVE ANY CPU’s in them.  IE, all you have to
>do is
>get a spark, not power up and entire network of computers before the
>motor
>will even begin to consider the “starting process”.
>
>
>
>So is this true?  That we can no longer pop-start a modern car with a
>dead
>battery?
>
>
>
>My son (too cheap to buy a new battery) still does it frequently with
>his
>pre-cpu Geo-Tracker, in fact we just did it last week.
>
>
>
>I’m just too old for all these newfangled hurdles…
>
>
>
>Bob
>-- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: EVLN: GM's 1st 200mi EV will launch as a driverless (autonomous) Lyft platform

[Chris Meier via EV]

Stop blaming Tesla, the vendors equipment doesn't look that high. US trucks 
should have guards,  put your energy there, please. 
-Chris
-- 
-Chris

On July 27, 2016 2:05:05 PM CDT, Collin Kidder via EV  wrote:
>I agree, people can be dangerous. If we could figure out the software
>I think self driving cars could be really safe. And, they'd be faster
>too because the road could be run with very little gap between cars so
>long as all of the cars are communicating and the cars are self
>driving. But, being a software developer, the failures terrify me. I'm
>too familiar with the way software is written and how buggy it tends
>to be to be all that comfortable in a 70MPH 3500lb missile. However,
>I'm already doing that in a drive by wire car. So, I guess it's just a
>matter of perception. But, manufacturers are going to have a lot of
>those perception issues to deal with. I think insurance will be kind
>of tough at first too. If a crash happens who do you blame? What if
>both cars were self driving? Will the automakers have to fight each
>other in court? What if the self driving car mistook your semi for the
>open sky (as just happened in the Tesla fatality)? I'm kind of leery
>of the millions of ways a computer could mistake the video coming in.
>Humans have a very finely tuned visual system and we still get it
>wrong sometimes. But, I don't think nearly anyone would have been
>fooled by the semi truck looks like the sky issue. I could see that it
>was a semi truck if I were driving. Apparently cars can't always.
>Though, I'm sure it'll improve. It's sort of a chicken and egg
>situation. I won't trust a self driving car with my own life until it
>is bulletproof but getting it there requires a lot of on the road
>testing.
>
>>
>> I think that once the self driving cars can demonstrate they can
>avoid more accidents on the road than the typical human, adoption will
>be rapid.  Mostly what they would be avoiding would be humans that
>weren't paying attention.  Once more humans are removed, the overall
>safety will increase again.
>>
>> We would like to think that all drivers are very careful and fully
>engaged in driving, but what I see on a daily basis isn't that.  I
>think that cars that are more predictable and can dodge humans are a
>good thing.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
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Re: [EVDL] Lead Acid question (old batteries)

[Chris Meier via EV]

If n-1 batteries is above the controller minimum voltage,  just take the bad 
one out and drive on the rest,  to go the mile
-- 
-Chris

On July 26, 2016 1:25:26 PM CDT, Robert Bruninga via EV  
wrote:
>Now that is the answer I needed.  That is, older batteries may top out
>at
>a charging voltage less than a new one, and so if the charger is not
>very
>smart, it never reaches the cutoff voltage it expects.  Never tapers
>the
>current and never indicates Full... even though the battery has
>accepted
>all it is going to.
>
>Im just trying to get enough juice back into it so I can drive the 1
>mile
>to where I store it  Thanks, Bob
>
>-Original Message-
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lead Acid question
>
>On 25 Jul 2016 at 11:55, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>
>> Im charging my 10 Lead Acids one at a time with a common 10A car
>> battery type charger. Usually they come from low to high on the
>> "percent" meter and then when they get to 100%, an LED comes on and
>> the current tapers to zero.
>
>> But I have one battery that seems to just stay at mid range and after
>> 20 hours is not topping off.  And battery is not excessively bubling
>> nor is it showing much heat gain.
>
>Note that I am not an electrochemist, just someone who's used batteries
>for quite a few years.  There are other folks here with far more
>experience and knowledge than I have, but none of them has answered
>your
>question as yet, so I'll take a run at it.  :-\
>
>First, one thing that makes remote diagnosis tough is that you haven't
>told us anything about the charger.  Automatic chargers' algorithms can
>affect the symptoms you see with a problem battery.
>
>That said ...
>
>It's normal for batteries' maximum on-charge voltage to fall as they
>age.
>Many automatic chargers know naught of this; they treat all batteries
>the
>same regardless of age.  They'll undercharge new batteries and/or
>overcharge old ones.  They may not shut off when they should.  They may
>claim a battery isn't charged when it's as full as it's ever going to
>get.
>
>However, the fact that you're seeing this symptom with only one battery
>in
>your pack suggests to me that that battery might have at least one bad
>cell.
>If you can't get its voltage to rise above around 13 volts with the
>charger charging it (not open circuit), and after a few hours of rest
>if
>falls to around 11 volts (open circuit), then that's probably what's
>wrong.
>
>In spite of what the snake oil salesmen claim, there's no cure for
>this,
>short of replacing the battery.
>
>As I suggested above, at least in my experience, the way automatic
>chargers behave can make it harder to diagnose battery problems, unless
>you know a lot about batteries and the charger's design.  Charging with
>a
>manual charger or a regulated power supply, and discharging with a 25
>to
>75 amp load, should tell you much more about what's really going on in
>that battery.
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
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>= =
>= = = = = = = = = = =
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>To
>send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage
>http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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Re: [EVDL] Oil's 'no-EVs' EU push> similar to their 1990's 'no-EVs' to CARB

[Chris Meier via EV]

"VW and Shell have been accused of trying to block Europe’s push for electric
cars and more efficient cars, by saying biofuels should be at heart of
efforts to green the industry instead."

If Shell believes that,  let them fund and profit from it


-Chris

On May 3, 2016 3:02:09 AM CDT, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
>
>
>% Shell doth protest too much, methinks (& threatened to sue) ...
>?Anyone remember the mtbe debacle?
>(Fuel discussions are OT on the evdl) %
>
>http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/apr/28/vw-and-shell-try-to-block-eu-push-for-cleaner-cars
>VW and Shell accused of trying to block EU push for electric cars
>28 April 2016  Arthur Neslen
>
>  *  This article was amended on 29 April to include comment from Shell
>which said it was not blocking an EU push for electric cars. The
>headline
>and opening sentence of the article were also changed to reflect this. 
>*
>
>[image  /  Jan Woitas/EPA
>https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/0176dbdc498e6930c144f68a0d1c604466e9268d/0_120_4096_2458/master/4096.jpg?w=1065=55=format=12=max=8609818828033b3ea899d586acdcb08b
>The industry study assumes a lack of public appetite for electric cars,
>despite 400,000 pre-orders for Telsa’s new Model 3
>]
>
>Industry giants’ call for biofuels over electric and fuel-efficient
>cars
>puts Europe’s carbon emissions targets at risk, say experts
>
>VW and Shell have been accused of trying to block Europe’s push for
>electric
>cars and more efficient cars, by saying biofuels should be at heart of
>efforts to green the industry instead.
>
>The EU is planning two new fuel efficiency targets for 2025 and 2030 to
>help
>meet promises made at the Paris climate summit last December.
>
>But executives from the two industrial giants launched a study on
>Wednesday
>night proposing greater use of biofuels, CO2 car labelling, and the
>EU’s
>emissions trading system (ETS) instead.
>
>In reality, such a package would involve the end of meaningful new
>regulatory action on car emissions for more than a decade, EU sources
>say
>...
>
>The Auto Fuels Coalition study, written by Roland Berger, makes a
>series of
>highly pessimistic assumptions about the costs of fuel efficiency
>improvements, and equally optimistic ones about greenhouse gas
>emissions
>from biofuels. A recent EU study found the dirtiest biofuels three
>times
>more polluting than diesel.
>
>An EU source said: “these two industries have realised they have a
>shared
>interest. When you saw who was paying for the study, you knew what the
>answer would be.” ...
>
>Campaigners point out that signs of an electric vehicles take-off this
>spring have included 400,000 pre-orders for the new Tesla’s Model 3, as
>well
>as a bid by the Dutch parliament to ban petrol and diesel engines by
>2025.
>On Thursday Germany promised a €1bn subsidy boost for electric cars.
>
>Yet the industry study assumes a lack of public appetite for electric
>cars
>over the next decade continuing until 5m urban recharging centres have
>been
>installed and renewable electricity prices fall from current rates.
>
>Dr Christoph Wolff, the managing director of the European Climate
>Foundation, told the Guardian: “Electrification is taking off rapidly
>in
>markets such as China, Norway and the Netherlands. EU policymakers need
>to
>agree stringent measures, which will push the auto sector towards
>developing
>products that are fit to compete in this fast-evolving marketplace.”
>
>Saudi Arabia’s recent declaration that it would detach itself from oil
>dependence by 2030 was heralded by campaigners as such a development.
>The
>increasing cost-competitiveness of renewables has been another ...
>
>The Dutch oil giant [Shell] has invested heavily in Brazilian ethanol
>and
>[Shell VP] Crooks stressed that biofuels would ... requiring [EU]
>policy
>incentives ...
>
>By 2021, no new cars will be allowed to emit more than 95 grams of CO2
>per
>kilometre, but electrification and widescale renewable electricity will
>be
>needed to approach zero emissions levels.
>
>Carlos Calvo Ambel, an analyst for the Transport and Environment
>thinktank,
>said that Europe would miss its greenhouse gas targets altogether if it
>followed the Auto Fuels Coalition paper’s advice.
>
>“Carmakers, oil companies and biofuels producers are making a desperate
>bid
>to dissuade Europe from undertaking fuel efficiency standards for cars,
>vans
>and trucks, a push for electric vehicles and many of the other badly
>needed
>actions in the transport sector,” he said.
>[© 2016 Guardian News and Media]
>...
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_lady_doth_protest_too_much,_methinks
>The lady doth protest too much, methinks
>...
>[dated]
>https://www.google.com/search?q=mtbe+disaster
>mtbe debacle/disaster
>https://www.google.com/search?q=mtbe+debacle
>% Oil pushed hard for mtbe %
>
>
>
>For EVLN EV-newswire posts use: 
>http://evdl.org/evln/
>
>
>{brucedp.150m.com}
>
>--
>View this message in context:

Re: [EVDL] Oil's 'no-EVs' EU push> similar to their 1990's 'no-EVs' to CARB

[Chris Meier via EV]

-Chris
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Re: [EVDL] Time to modern-age jolt NY retail-laws> Greenwich Tesla store

[Chris Meier via EV]

So call it a gallery, not a store. Open a Tesla Internet Kiosk next door, with 
Tesla trained assistants to aid "Internet users". Guise it as a coffee shop. Or 
a business meeting center.

On March 12, 2016 3:37:01 AM CST, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
>
>
>http://www.greenwichtime.com/news/article/Bob-Horton-Time-to-jolt-retail-laws-into-the-6872420.php
>Bob Horton: Time to jolt retail laws into the modern age
>March 5, 2016
>
>What makes a store a store? And, specifically, what makes a store
>worthy of
>a coveted space on Greenwich Avenue, arguably the region’s highest-end
>retail strip.
>
>Those are questions being asked as the Planning and Zoning Commission
>contemplates Tesla Motor Company’s request to spotlight its luxury
>electric
>cars in a 1,900-square-foot showroom at 340 Greenwich Ave., between
>Restoration Hardware and the Apple Store.
>Anyone who has been to the Westchester Mall in White Plains in the last
>several years knows full well that the Tesla showroom is more retail
>store
>than traditional car dealership. There is no service department, no
>huge
>parts inventory for sale and no lot full of new and used cars waiting
>to be
>test-driven. It is a brightly lit, highly polished space designed to
>entice
>shoppers to take a look at and eventually buy the latest Tesla models.
>
>Such a space would be a welcome addition to the Greenwich Avenue retail
>landscape. Other store owners would welcome the increased foot traffic
>generated by people’s curiosity about the newest electric cars, and the
>Tesla brand prestige would add to the already considerable allure of
>The
>Avenue as a shopping destination.
>Unfortunately, it seems likely that the Planning and Zoning Commission
>will
>reject Tesla’s request because town zoning regulations have not kept up
>with
>21st century retailing trends, and an antiquated, anti-competitive
>state law
>mandates that only dealerships can sell cars. Tesla has no dealers; it
>sells
>directly to consumers.
>
>Tesla has promised not to sell cars at its Greenwich store, which keeps
>it
>in compliance with state law and could give our P commissioners, if
>they
>were so inclined, the legal basis to allow a car showroom on Greenwich
>Avenue. Car dealerships are defined as places where vehicles are sold,
>stored and serviced. Without car sales, the Tesla space does not meet
>the
>definition of a dealership.
>In a town where elected officials continually rail against state
>interference in all matters municipal, one would think they would
>welcome
>the chance to take on the state by challenging its right to limit which
>retailers can sell cars. After all, this is the town that set up a
>commission to study state tax laws because one prominent hedge fund
>owner
>moved to Florida. Doesn’t changing a law that inconveniences many
>Greenwich
>and other state shoppers warrant a similar effort from our elected
>leaders?
>
>But the promise not to sell cars seems to eliminate Tesla as a store,
>at
>least according to one P commissioner. “You’re displaying things
>(cars)
>that can’t be put up for sale. That’s a key part of retail use,” said
>commissioner Richard Maitland. And he has a point, because if street
>level
>retail spaces were leased to non-retailers, foot traffic would decrease
>and
>the health of the entire retail zone would be jeopardized. But Tesla’s
>innovative luxury electric cars are a high interest item that would
>generate
>more foot traffic than many other “stores” that actually sell goods or
>services.
>
>Greenwich, Fairfield County and many other parts of Connecticut are
>target-rich environments for Tesla, so the company will continue to
>pursue
>retail locations and changing state law. And it will be interesting to
>see
>how the town’s fully Republican state legislative delegation comes down
>on
>this issue. Will they support the free market principles that
>Republicans
>profess to cherish, or will they come down on the side of existing car
>dealers, who don’t want the competition?
>
>Connecticut car dealers are so threatened by the Tesla business model
>that
>they sent the president of their trade association, the Connecticut
>Automotive Retailers Association (CARA), to the Greenwich P meeting
>to
>argue their case.
>
>“CARA and its local car dealers in the town support the Greenwich
>Planning
>and Zoning Board’s recognition of the illegality of Tesla’s plan to
>sell
>cars in Greenwich,” wrote the CARA rep in a statement issued the day
>after
>the meeting. “Tesla not only wanted an exemption from the local zoning
>laws
>but is pushing a bill at the state capitol that also lets it operate
>outside
>of long-time existing state laws. They are demanding their own
>non-competitive playing field and will not commit to a dealer franchise
>system that is in the best interest of the consumer.”
>
>I particularly love the president’s claim that Tesla is “demanding
>their own
>non-competitive playing field.” So, CARA thinks there should only be
>one

Re: [EVDL] EVLN status ... EV-news-drought ... We've been spoiled ...

[Chris Meier via EV]

Have you driven the BYD EV that came to the US? I wouldn't buy one. 
-Chris 

On March 11, 2016 8:32:09 AM CST, Rick Beebe via EV  wrote:
>On 03/11/2016 03:45 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>> IMO, the dark horse here is China.  They look set to become the
>world's
>> largest producer of EVs, as long as their government doesn't cave to
>oil
>> interests.
>
>I just read that BYD was the largest producer of EVs last year. I think
>
>the Chinese government is feeling INTENSE pressure to cut its carbon 
>emissions and curb air pollution and I think there's a lot of incentive
>
>for them to favor EVs in that battle.
>
>--Rick
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: What You Need To Know To Wire A Garage EVSE

[Chris Meier via EV]

The HCS-40P is also available with 14-50.

On March 7, 2016 11:07:12 AM CST, "Peter C. Thompson via EV" 
 wrote:
>To add to this conversation, here are some commercial chargers:
>
>Clipper Creek LCS-20P - uses 14-30 plug. LCS-25P also uses 14-30. The 
>HCS-40P uses the 6-50.
>GE  EVWSWBC-CP01 uses the 6-50 plug.
>AeroVironment EV station (7kw) uses the 6-40 plug.
>Juicebox 40A uses the 14-50 plug.
>AeroVironment Turbocord uses the 6-20.
>Levitron EVB40-PST uses the 6-50.
>Nissan Leaf charger uses 6-50R.
>EV Power Pros 7kw uses 6-50.
>
>The hard-wired chargers can use the plug of your choice - as long as
>the 
>current capacity is sufficient.
>
>So I think it depends on the amount of current you are going to pull. 
>Lower current seems to use the 14-30 and higher current uses the 6-50.
>
>Cheers, Peter
>
>P.S.  sorry for the HTML earlier.
>
>On 3/7/16 5:27 AM, dovepa via EV wrote:
>> That is interesting because I purchased a Siemens VersiCharge Gen 2
>30 Amp charger and it had a NE MA 6-50 plug on the end.
>>
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original
>message From: Cor van de Water via EV  Date:
>3/7/2016  3:18 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: What You Need To Know To
>Wire A Garage EVSE
>> Sorry, but I think this is bad advice.
>> NEMA 6-50 is not the most common plug. The NEMA 14-50 (RV plug) is by
>> far the most useful plug, found in every camping and RV spot, it is
>used
>> for stove or other appliance connection in newer homes (old homes had
>> 10-50 or 10-30 for stove and dryer respectively) so I do not know why
>> 6-50 is recommended in this article? Are there other areas than what
>I
>> am aware of
>> where NEMA 6-50 is common? I could not find them and Wikipedia says
>of
>> the
>> NEMA 6: "The higher-current versions are rare..."
>> I am only aware of somewhat common use of the NEMA 6-20 which is the
>20A
>> version that looks like the usual NEMA 5 outlet and plug, but then
>used
>> on window ACs that run on 240V instead of 120V.
>>
>> I would *definitely* recommend to mount a 14-30 or 14-50 where you
>want
>> to plug in the charger, since that is also useful for the common
>> appliances such as a dryer and you can even plug in an RV.
>> Conversely, if you mount a 14-50 plug on your charger and carry it,
>you
>> can plug in at any campground or other RV facility.
>>
>> Cor van de Water
>> Chief Scientist
>> Proxim Wireless
>>
>> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
>> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
>>
>> http://www.proxim.com
>>
>> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential
>and
>> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you
>received
>> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
>> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
>> this message is prohibited.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of brucedp5 via
>EV
>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 12:16 AM
>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: What You Need To Know To Wire A Garage EVSE
>>
>>
>>
>>
>http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100526_how-to-wire-a-new-garage-for
>> -electric-car-charging-what-you-need-to-know
>> How To Wire A New Garage For Electric-Car Charging: What You Need To
>> Know
>> Feb 26, 2016  John Voelcker
>>
>> [images
>> http://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/garage_100546966_l.jpg
>> Garage
>>
>> http://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/nema-6-50-plug_100546965_l.jpg
>> NEMA 6-50 plug
>>
>> http://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/nema-6-50-socket_100546964_l.jpg
>> NEMA 6-50 socket
>>
>>
>http://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/nema-6-50-plug-in-socket_100546961_l.jpg
>> NEMA 6-50 plug in socket
>>
>> http://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/circuit-breaker-box_100546962_l.jpg
>> Circuit-breaker box
>>
>>
>http://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/circuit-breaker-box-showing-240-volt-circ
>> uit-for-electric-car-charging-station_100546963_l.jpg
>> Circuit-breaker box showing 240-Volt circuit for electric-car
>charging
>> station
>> ]
>>
>> One of the more daunting perceived obstacles to driving a plug-in
>> electric
>> car seems to be the need for a home charging station.
>>
>> While plug-in hybrids can be recharged overnight using their 120-Volt
>> charging cords, battery-electric drivers should really have access to
>a
>> 240-Volt Level 2 charging station.
>>
>> Those will recharge the full battery pack in anything from 4 to 9
>hours,
>> depending on the specific car.
>>
>> Many owners will want to retrofit a charging station into an existing
>> garage, but to lay out the principles, we're starting with what it
>takes
>> to
>> install one into a garage that's being built or extensively
>remodeled.
>>
>> We've just gone through that process for a new garage in New York's
>> Catskill
>> Mountains. (Note this 

Re: [EVDL] Electric Snowblower Conversion / evalum

[Chris Meier via EV]

http://www.evalbum.com/4821
Not a conversion,  but it's starting the 5th year in service. Ariens stopped 
selling them,  but they were sold for a couple of years. The charger tries to 
murder the batteries if they're not top balanced, etc. 
-Chris 

On December 2, 2015 1:08:57 PM CST, ken via EV  wrote:
> http://evalbum.com/3628
>
>___
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Re: [EVDL] Franken Leaf / pickup body...

[Chris Meier via EV]

Use an extended cab truck and put it behind the driver.  Keeps the battery 
closet to ideal temps,  too

On January 13, 2016 8:35:15 AM CST, Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
>
>
>On 01/13/2016 09:07 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>>> ... buying a used Leaf is a great solution...
>>> ... I have always liked the prospects of truck conversions.
>>
>> Is that like hacking the rear of the Leaf to add a truck bed?
>> Or hacking a truck to install the Leaf drive?
>
>When I bought my wrecked leaf, (rear end collision), it would drive 
>around with the back wheels on wheel dollies.
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONBXP0ttW88
>
>I put about a day of thought into finding a rear end of an S10/ranger
>or 
>other "lite" pickup and welding it to the back of the Leaf.  It could
>be 
>done and should work, but would look horrible without a lot of snazzy 
>body work.
>
>The big issue I forsee is that you can't easily cut the leaf in half 
>because the battery is under the rear seats as well, so you would have
>a 
>long cab short bed pickup.
>
>Transplanting the entire leaf drivedrain into the front of a s10/ranger
>
>should also be quite possible, but finding room for the battery would 
>require extensive modifications to the frame of the truck (unless you 
>cheated and just carried it around in the bed, but that would remove 
>your truck carrying capacity reason for doing the conversion.) Even 
>removing the driveshaft, the battery wouldn't fit between the rails 
>unless you moved them out a lot.
>
>Jay
>___
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla-X owner wrapping up a date found human poop all over his EV

[Chris Meier via EV]

Open letter,  to Michael's date:
  "Run"

On February 6, 2016 2:17:50 AM CST, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
>
>
>'ChicagoPD no help, said not allowed to drive with poop obstructed
>windshield'
>
>% A hate crime just in time for Valentines day ... ?An Alsop2
>Chicagoan?
>http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Musk-dissociating-from-an-annoying-customer-who-isn-t-worth-the-trouble-tp4680276.html
>%
>
>http://www.gq.com/story/who-pooped-on-this-guys-tesla
>Who Pooped on This Guy's Tesla?
>February 5, 2016   CHRIS GAYOMALI
>
>[link  (original CL ad has been removed)
>https://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/mis/5425400537.html
>This posting has been flagged for removal.
>(The title on the listings page will be removed in just a few minutes.)
>
>
>tweet  (screen capture of CL ad before it was removed)
>https://twitter.com/barryap1/status/695351786324914176
>Barry Petchesky ‏@barryap1
>Here's the now-flagged Craigslist posting on the guy looking for
>whoever
>pooped on his Tesla Model X.
>https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CaZiw8aUYAM74RL.png
>1:02 PM - 4 Feb 2016
>]
>
>A Chicago man who goes by "Michael" took to Craigslist to air his
>grievances
>
>Now I'm no Tesla owner. But say I were a Tesla owner? You're darn
>tootin' I
>wouldn't appreciate it if someone took a steamy hot dump all over my
>clean
>windshield. Unfortunately, that's what apparently happened to this poor
>Chicago guy named "Michael" who took to Craigslist to kvetch about a
>very
>inconspicuous poop someone had left on the windshield of his nice Model
>X.
>And now he's out for VENGEANCE.
>
>Let's just pretend this is real, k?
>
>-Obviously I have a large degree of humility when writing this because
>I am
>seeking people out here to see if anyone has any information about who
>may
>have taken a gigantic shit on the windshield of my brand new Tesla
>Model X.
>
>This has to be a joke.
>
> -This is not a joke.
>
>Very dope, thank you for clarifying that. "Michael" goes on:
>
>-Now I know a lot of people might find this funny but my date was
>really
>traumatized by the whole thing and I have zero leads. What's more, the
>CPD
>"absolutely refused" to help me, a tax paying citizen, clean the shit
>off of
>my car. But they obviously didn't hesitate to tell me I could not drive
>with
>the poop on my windshield because it would obstruct my visibility. I
>had to
>use a redeye magazine and bottle of water to clean it off and that
>sucked.
>
>Imagine the obituary. (Cause of death: too much poop on windshield,
>couldn't
>see.)
>
>"Michael" concludes his note with a threat ("I will find you") and that
>the
>poop-layin' perp better lawyer the hell up, because "taking dumps on a
>person's car is something children do, not adults." Hell hath no fury
>like a
>Tesla owner wrapping up a date only to find adult poops all over his
>electric vehicle.
>[© gq.com  2016 Condé Nast]
>
>
>
>
>For EVLN EV-newswire posts use: 
>http://evdl.org/evln/
>
>
>{brucedp.150m.com}
>
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>View this message in context:
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>Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>Nabble.com.
>___
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Re: [EVDL] Gas vs Electric Lawn Mower - Elec wins

[Chris Meier via EV]

Why,  is the ICE drag bike the same cost to put on the track as the EV?

On October 12, 2015 1:55:32 PM CDT, rick via EV  wrote:
>A more relevant test that more people could identify with would be to 
>put the same dollar amount of fuel in each and then do those tests.
>
>--Rick
>
>On 10/12/2015 02:50 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV wrote:
>> Damon,
>>
>> Why don't you do a little experiment - get a friend/somebody who has
>the 'same'
>> motorcycle as yours, fill his tank with the equivalent amount of kw
>as your
>> battery pack (don't for get to run his tank/carburetor dry to
>equalize the total
>> amount of energy), and see who runs the longest, then the farthest,
>up a hill
>> the quickest etc.
>>
>> It would really be interesting to see the results.
>>
>> Bill Dube - what is the equivalent amount of gas that your
>competition runs for
>> the track compared to the kw that the KillaCycle uses for a run?
>>
>> Rush Dougherty
>> www.TucsonEV.com
>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of damon henry
>via EV
>>> Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 11:43 AM
>>> To: EV List
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Gas vs Electric Lawn Mower - Elec wins
>>>
>>> Good point :)  What are you driving to work? I put over 1000 miles
>on my
>> motorcycle this
>>> summer at a penny a mile.  That is much more cost effective than the
>ICE SUV I
>> drove in
>>> today.
>>> damon
>>>
>>> Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 18:04:30 +
>>> From: dov...@bellsouth.net
>>> To: damonhe...@hotmail.com; ev@lists.evdl.org; ev@lists.evdl.org
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Gas vs Electric Lawn Mower - Elec wins
>>>
>>> No, they don't care about that either since it cost me 40 cents a
>day to go to
>> work and it
>>> costs my wife 5 or 6 bucks depending on the price of gas.
>>>
>>> It's just new technology and most people are afraid of change.
>However, it
>> will eventually be
>>> realized by all.
>>>
>>>  From: damon henry via EV 
>>>   To: EV List 
>>>   Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 12:24 PM
>>>   Subject: Re: [EVDL] Gas vs Electric Lawn Mower - Elec wins
>>>
>>> Yes, but no one cares about kw of energy in gasoline.  They care
>about how
>> many gallons
>>> or liters they need and how much it costs.  This is like saying that
>the
>> gasoline weighs more
>>> than  electricity.  Most people see it as totally irrelevant.
>damonTo:
>> e...@lists.evdl.orgDate:
>>> Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:19:17 -0700Subject: [EVDL] Gas vs Electric Lawn
>Mower -
>> Elec
>>> winsFrom: e...@lists.evdl.orgi don’t know how many of you look at
>Robert
>> Llewellyn's Fully
>>>
>>
>Charged> ed/
>>> keywords_top>  videos, but here is one that you shouldn’t miss -
>>> https://www.facebook.com/FullyChargedShow/videos/867139510038966/ It
>is just
>>> phenomenal. Basically the guy takes 2 mowers, elec and gas,
>measuresthe
>> equivalent kw
>>> of energy of the battery pack and puts it into the gas mowerand runs
>them. The
>> results
>>> blew me away. The petrol (Robert is English) lastsabout 7 ½ minutes,
>the elec
>> lasts 50 min
>>> and 26 secs… efficiency counts. I hope that somebody has the guts to
>do this
>> with an
>>> electric vehicle andgas/diesel vehicle… Rush
>Doughertywww.TucsonEV.com
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>>
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>> dl.orgRead
>>> EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/Please discuss EV drag
>racing at
>> NEDRA
>>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)  
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>racing at
>> NEDRA
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>drag racing
>> at NEDRA
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>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [EVDL] EV pioneers

[Chris Meier via EV]

Would the EV Album folks add a wiki to their server for this purpose? 

On October 3, 2015 2:16:44 PM CDT, Ben Goren via EV  wrote:
>On Oct 3, 2015, at 12:19 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV
> wrote:
>
>> Anyone have thoughts on this idea?
>
>You're absolutely right. _A_ wiki would be good for this sort of thing,
>but _the_ Wikipedia is not the proper wiki.
>
>Ironically enough, a well-established EVDL wiki could conceivably
>become a suitable source for a citation for Wikipedia, but any such
>consideration should be secondary.
>
>b&
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Re: [EVDL] 3 Unique EV's

[Chris Meier via EV]

http://evalbum.com/361

On September 7, 2015 7:54:43 PM CDT, Willie2 via EV  wrote:
>On 09/07/2015 07:47 PM, Mike Beem via EV wrote:
>> I have 3 very different EV's I need to find new homes for; old
>injuries
>>
>> So I have (1) a 4 seater Rhoades Car with 36 volt power, including a
>solar
>> charger canopy/roof, (2) a Terra Trike with 24 volt power (which can
>be
>> terrfyingly fun in a parking lot gymkhana!), and (3) a near sister to
>the
>> Goggomobil I had, (which is still on the Photo Album). This one has
>never
>EVAlbum searches for beem, rhoades, and goggomobil failed to turn up 
>anything interesting.
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVs Here, There and Everywhere

[Chris Meier via EV]

Mpls has Teslas on the road. 2 imported e-golfs. Haven't seen nor heard of a 
Fiat e500 yet. Numerous leaves, some i3.

On August 29, 2015 5:28:15 AM CDT, EVDL Administrator via EV 
ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
On 28 Aug 2015 at 20:45, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

 They are here, there, and everywhere ...
 

Sounds like you're enjoying seeing all those EVs.  Could you please
send a 
few out here to the Midwest?  So far I've only seen a couple of Leaves
here 
in the Akron OH area, and that's about all.  I don't recall ever seeing
a 
Tesla here.

Maybe there are more production EVs up Cleveland way, but so far I
haven't 
noticed any there either.  :-(

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not 
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Re: [EVDL] 48V Energy Meter (Lead-Acid)...

[Chris Meier via EV]

What happens with the E-meter/etc if you limit the available current, say to 
10-20ma? Will it retain accumulated amphours? Counting function? No display 
until xx ma?

-Chris


On July 27, 2015 5:56:16 PM CDT, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
 Lee, Thanks for setting me straight that the backlight draws so much
 power that it is better not to use a zener.

The older E-meter/Link-10 had LED displays. They drew more current. The

later LinkPro/LinkPro-Lite has an LCD display with LED backlight. These

draw less, but the backlight is still a power hog and takes about 30ma 
at full brightness. The measurement electronics adds an additional 
10-20ma depending on what it is doing at the moment.

 An ordinary buck
 converter can be OK if both the meter power and measurements are
 connected only to the pack, since then no chassis connection exists.

Sure; that's fine if you don't mind the continuous supply current. It's

not a problem in an EV that's driven (and charged) regularly. The 
problem comes if you park the EV for months, and forget to disconnect 
the meter and don't have some kind of charger connected.

 Do you know if the meter can be powered off when the car is not used
 without losing its memory?

Yes, they have an EEPROM that retains setup information. But it will 
reset the accumulated amphours to zero.

-- 
Pollution is nothing but the resources we are not harvesting. We
allow them to disperse because we've been ignorant of their value.
   -- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] 48V Energy Meter (Lead-Acid)...

[Chris Meier via EV]

No backlight. 

On July 27, 2015 6:48:21 PM CDT, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
wrote:
You mean to limit it to 20mA even while you turn on the backlight?
Then the meter's switching converter will try to draw more, so the
input voltage drops, while the converter tries to draw even more,
so the input voltage drops more - until it reaches a point where the
converter no longer works and stops drawing power, then the input
voltage will
recover to a point above where the converter starts again and the cycle
will
repeat.
Result will be a pulsed 12V output on the power converter, more than
likely
the meter will simply not work at all as if it is powered off.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential
and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you
received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.
 Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part
of this message is prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Chris Meier
via EV
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2015 4:44 PM
To: Lee Hart; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 48V Energy Meter (Lead-Acid)...

What happens with the E-meter/etc if you limit the available current,
say to 10-20ma? Will it retain accumulated amphours? Counting function?
No display until xx ma?

-Chris


On July 27, 2015 5:56:16 PM CDT, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:
Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
 Lee, Thanks for setting me straight that the backlight draws so much

 power that it is better not to use a zener.

The older E-meter/Link-10 had LED displays. They drew more current.
The

later LinkPro/LinkPro-Lite has an LCD display with LED backlight.
These

draw less, but the backlight is still a power hog and takes about 30ma

at full brightness. The measurement electronics adds an additional 
10-20ma depending on what it is doing at the moment.

 An ordinary buck
 converter can be OK if both the meter power and measurements are 
 connected only to the pack, since then no chassis connection exists.

Sure; that's fine if you don't mind the continuous supply current.
It's

not a problem in an EV that's driven (and charged) regularly. The 
problem comes if you park the EV for months, and forget to disconnect 
the meter and don't have some kind of charger connected.

 Do you know if the meter can be powered off when the car is not used

 without losing its memory?

Yes, they have an EEPROM that retains setup information. But it will 
reset the accumulated amphours to zero.

--
Pollution is nothing but the resources we are not harvesting. We allow

them to disperse because we've been ignorant of their value.
  -- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com 
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Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?

[Chris Meier via EV]

Had anyone tried a leaf heat pump?

On June 10, 2015 5:29:35 PM CDT, Joe via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
I'm on my 4th iteration of air-conditioning scheme.  The latest is
building
a controller to run a 2nd gen prius a/c compressor. I have a thread
going
on DIYecar here:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/diy-controller-04-09-prius-c-140346.html

It's worked well so far at up to 105F outside despite speed limitations
(due to only a 144v pack) and power draw was only about 1.5kW.  I just
got
it working a few months ago so we'll see if it lasts the summer.

Just some initial thoughts, I spent a lot of time/money flushing the
hoses
and heat exchangers to get all the PAG oil out (eats at the motor
windings
apparently).  Also spent extra money on having new hoses made.  Since
you'll be starting from scratch, you won't have to do either if you go
the
prius compressor route.  Also, if you'd rather avoid hacking a
controller
together, you could hack the communication protocol to the 3rd gen
prius
compressor which has its controller built in.

Previous attempts were:
- ice water and a fan.  was easy to try, but laughable for phoenix.
- use a single phase compressor out of a 5000 BTU window a/c unit with
a
homemade inverter - not enough cooling capacity, need more like 10k-12k
BTU/hr.
- use a 3.5 HP treadmill motor to run the original a/c compressor. 
Failed
miserably, not enough power to even get it turning past a few RPM.
- use a 5 HP single phase 240VAC air compressor motor to turn the
original
a/c compressor powered by a homemade 240VAC single phase inverter.  The
motor is readily available, so reasonably cheap.  This setup worked
well
from a cooling perspective, but terribly inefficient and drew 3-4 kw on
the
hottest days and not much less on the warm days.  My electronics failed
on
its second summer, so I spent the winter working on the prius a/c
project.

A friend of mine has a porsche and belt drives his compressor off the
tail
shaft of the drive motor.  It was easy to do, but is about as
inefficient
as my attempt to use a second motor to drive the original a/c
compressor.
And, gotta rev the motor while at a stop light to keep the compressor
going.
http://electricporsche924.blogspot.com/2014/09/ac-update.html

Joe

On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 2:44 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 So, I can imagine all sorts of ways that one might run air
conditioning in
 an electric vehicle, but I'm sure others have actually tried and done
 different ways and likely figured out the best general approach.

 Any of those others reading these words and care to point me in a
good
 direction?

 This'll be starting from scratch in a vehicle that never had air
 conditioning in the first place but for which both factory and
aftermarket
 air conditioning systems are available that run off of a pulley on
the ICE
 engine.

 Thanks,

 b
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

[Chris Meier via EV]

Some folks may wish to work with excel, and save locally. I would still offer 
the xls.
-Chris


On May 19, 2015 12:50:29 AM CDT, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
Mr23 via EV wrote:
 Lee, what about hosting your spreadsheets at your website, along with
 all the other technical information?

That's a good idea. I'll do it. Thanks Mr23!

Hmm... does anyone know if there's an easy way to have an online active

spreadsheet, where the viewer can fill in his data online, and see the 
results online? If I put it up as (for example) an .XLS file, people 
would have to download it, and have the right version of Excel to run 
it. If you know, contact me off-list, as it's getting off-topic for the

EVDL.

-- 
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
 -- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
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Re: [EVDL] Watch Malfunctioning meter. on YouTube

[Chris Meier via EV]

Is it a specific band of sunlight, such as IR, that causes the effect?

On March 18, 2015 5:18:45 AM CDT, George Tyler via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
It is clearly the sun causing the problem. Some years ago I was
designing
RFID readers for cow tags, I found that the tags themselves were
sensitive
to sunlight! In fact, any chip that does not have sunlight positively
excluded is this meter will probably have a chip bonded to the
bottom of
the pcb directly with a blob of sealer on the top.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence
Rhodes via
EV
Sent: Wednesday, 18 March 2015 10:56 a.m.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Watch Malfunctioning meter. on YouTube

Malfunctioning meter.: https://youtu.be/xNy8IOlRkII

This is the correct url.  Lawrence Rhodes

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Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options (40 for me... not)

[Chris Meier via EV]

How are the FFE battery packs holding up?

On March 10, 2015 11:44:01 AM CDT, Bill Woodcock via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
wrote:
 I've had my imiev only a couple of months, but I'm very pleased with
it.  Other than the 60 miles of range.  Cost new was about $26k,
including tax, title, and license.  The state incentive is $2.5k and
the income tax credit is $7.5k.  So, I expect the total cost to be
about $16k.

The Ford Focus currently has an $8K manufacturer incentive, which
brings it to $15K after state and federal credits, also.  It’s a very
nice car.

-Bill




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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000 times more)

[Chris Meier via EV]

Can/will the market adapt?

- add a power section and a HV DC port to the house inverter
- add a HV DC port to the traction battery on the hybrid cars
- cable them together during low isolation periods or if you use more than your 
panels produce
- add more solar when you can, if it's lower power cost than the hybrid car 
power cost, and you mostly produce less solar power than you use

If the utilities raise the base, there's more money in the market for 
alternatives. We're already headed there; seems like this move by the utilities 
would hasten V2H.

On December 23, 2014 9:58:41 AM CST, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
On Dec 23, 2014, at 8:18 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 Presently, the grid is a better deal than
 storage.

Presently is the key word.

Utilities presently typically charge basic connection fees under $20 /
month.

But utilities scared of solar are moving towards charging between $50
and $100 per month or more, just for the privilege of putting solar
panels on your roof. Basically, they're calling the bluff, trying to
structure their rates so that you pay basically the same amount whether
or not you have solar panels on your roof.

And, in the environment the utilities are idiotically barreling us
towards, the grid ceases to make sense. Better to double your solar
costs and cut your grid costs to zero than to pay for solar and keep
paying what you used to for the grid. Much better

b
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Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid

[Chris Meier via EV]

Off-gridders usually have a genset for the low insolation periods. Try a used 
Prius?

On December 22, 2014 7:36:30 AM CST, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
wrote:
Hi Ben,

What SRPs CEO knows and you will find out is you are diving into a
rabbit
hole.  It is not a rational world down there, yet.

I will just talk about batteries.

It is important to know what your present and future power needs are. 
For
instance, I just has a six week period this past July and August where
my
PV system made an average of 8kWh a day - I use 23kWh.  As I write this
it
is completely dark and gray outside and raining once again.  Obviously,
my
5.6kW system is not big enough to span the time I may need more power
than
I can reasonably make even with battery storage. A good month where I
break
even with Duke Energy, I make 23 to 30 kWh a day.  To go off grid have
to
guess what I will need to save for my location and it is probably at
least
3 days worth of average use -  based on current needs (no EV to charge)
-
round up to 100kWh at 120 and some 240VAC.

You need to be brutally honest about your weather, how you feel about
your
use of power, and your willingness to go with far less power or without
completely for some periods of time.  I see you live in a sunny place,
AZ,
but be honest - is it ever not sunny, and how well will your system
deal
with the worst case.  How well will your wife an daughters, and so on. 
How
have to design for the worst case and decide what you can manage.,

In this way the grid is worth something to us all.

On the battery front - you live an a place that gets quite hot, it get
hot
when have a lot of sunlight.  This means you will subject your
batteries to
the worst possible conditions for their life - high heat and high state
of
charge.  You should know that Leaf batter packs are proving to be very
a
lot of trouble in AZ and SoCal where they get hot, and Nissan did not
make
provisions to col them.  Some packs have lost 27% of their capacity in
a
year and lawsuits are in process.  The heat is killing them.  You are
going
to need to cool the system actively.  You need to know what the exact
cells
are  in it and their particular needs.  A mixed pack will need to have
climate control for the worst cells in it.

Consider this LiFePO4 cells start to have real problems at 40°C (104°)
and
high states of charge.  NMO at 35°C.

This is a fascinating lecture in Li Ion batteries.  [The fellow giving
it
Dr. Jeff Dahn, really knows what he is talking about (he has been
working
on Li ion since 1978, one of his main collaborators is now the head
engineer at Tesla for battery life, and another is building and selling
high precision cell test equipment for Bosch, Tesla (Panasonic), ATL,
and
others)]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxP0Cu00sZs

A list of Electorchemical papers is here:
http://www.dal.ca/diff/dahn/publications.html  The 1st one
chronologically
is #422, and search on A.J Smith and J.C Burns for subsequent ones.

In a nutshell the lecture says that most Li Ion battery testing in the
past
has been unable to evaluate long term performance.  What happened to
Nissan
is liable to crop up with any EV packs out there (except perhaps
Tesla),
and you need to account for this with any home storage plan.  If you
try to
use PbSO4 then they are more forgiving, but still a very expensive and
tricky proposition.

In truth every Li ion chemistry, electrolyte package, manufacturer, and
form factor is a little unknown world unto itself, and the data on how
to
manage them for longevity is not yet available.  You make a mixed pack
from
used EVs and you are asking for trouble.

The questions is, are you offended by SRP so much that you would drop 
$10k
to $20K to make a reliable home storage system?  Or would you rather
send
the to SRP in little monthly bits for 30 years?

Here is how it would look for me -

Duke Energy charges me $19.50 a month when I net to no power use for
them.
Applying no time value of money - that is about 500 months before I
break
even on a $10K storage system.

Roughing it out further, I would need to at least double my PV capacity
(I
have already gotten all the tax credit I can get, so I would spend $30K
for
an additional 6kW system with really quality components (Sunpower has
the
best chance of actually lasting 30 years) to meet my worst case needs,
And
I would probably be having some times of very low  available power with
this system when I would have to be very conservative in my use of
stored
power.  If I charge an EV I need even more.  The storage system is
probably
$20K.  $50K out of pocket.

I am not happy with my utility, but I like my money more.  In 30 years
I
can triple that $50K with conservative investing practices.  The
heartache
of and time going into design a home storage system is not appealing
either.  It will be risky and if you get it wrong the extra cost high.

I believe simply waiting 10 or 20 years to see how all this shakes out
is a
smart move.  Maybe buy some 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem

[Chris Meier via EV]

Uber? Lyft? Have them pick it up for you, and you retain that hour...

On November 18, 2014 1:04:13 PM CST, Chris Tromley via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
wrote:
FWIW, I still remember the day a week before a trade show when
something
went FUBAR on must-have-for-trade-show parts.  I ended up driving over
80
miles before lunch.  It does happen, and I don't want to be making
excuses
for my EV.

I'm thinking the public will be OK with 150 miles and happy with 200.

Chris
On Nov 18, 2014 1:37 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 On Nov 18, 2014, at 3:49 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

  Range anxiety is often cited as one of the major reasons battery
electric
  vehicles have yet to take off in the mass market. But does it
actually
 exist
  in practice?

 That friend of mine whom I mentioned a week or three ago is, I think,
a
 typical example of how range anxiety expresses itself.

 Best I can tell, he's the ideal example of somebody who'd be happiest
with
 one of today's freeway-capable production electric vehicles. More
than
 enough range for what he actually drives, plus all of the other
advantages
 the rest of the choir here knows so well.

 But he's worried that there might be some random emergency with the
wife
 or kids or parents that has him driving all over creation on no
notice when
 he's already at work and thus used up a quarter of his range.

 I don't think he's ever actually _had_ such an emergency that a
typical
 electric vehicle would be unable to handle...but the fear remains.

 I think 200 might be the magic number for my friend and people like
him.
 Most people are going to think of that as a 100=mile radius, and
think of
 that as more than enough Murphy factor to not have to worry. Only
those
 with insane commutes are going to think of that as not being enough.

 Reality doesn't necessarily play much of a role in these sorts of
 decisions. I could suggest that, for the once-a-decade time (if that)
my
 friend actually needs to make that sort of an emergency excursion he
could
 easily hire a cab, and it wouldn't matter. It's better to have it
and not
 need it than need it and not have it is the mentality at work.

 b
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Re: [EVDL] EValert: !Don't buy a salvaged Tesla EV to repair drive! (video)

[Chris Meier via EV]

If a Tesla is to be sold as Salvageable, then prior to listing for sale it 
should be inspected by Tesla and results provided in the sale listing. Without 
the inspection and doc it should only be listable as unrepairable.


On October 2, 2014 10:04:14 AM CDT, Collin Kidder via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
wrote:
I think that, by this point, we all agree on that point: the buyer did
not
receive what he thought he had received. I believe that the company
that
sold the salvage car likely did not realize the true situation either.
I
would think that the sell would fall into questionable legality given
the
circumstances.

The lingering question, and point of disagreement, is whether Tesla has
any
legal or moral authority or sanction to disable a vehicle that they no
longer own. My view is that it is never acceptable for the originating
company to disable a device without the sanction of the current owner.
I
seriously doubt that the owner at the time of the crash really wanted
them
to totally disable the car remotely. Disabling the car is the
responsibility of the inertia sensors in the car. THAT is for
safety.These
things can be reset by the owner. Instead Tesla has electronically
disabled
the car in such a way that only they can unlock it. This is
unconscionable
as far as I'm concerned. This is not for safety. This is all so that
Tesla
can retain total control of something they have already sold.

On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Haritech (Gmail) via EV
ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 I agree. The seller didn't understand what he was buying. That's
really
 the end of the story.

 He didn't buy it from Tesla so it's not Teslas jobs to ensure the
scrap
 was re manufacturable into a car. It is Teslas role/right to ensure
their
 name and brand is protected.

 Lawrence

  On Oct 2, 2014, at 7:42, Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com wrote:
 
  On Oct 2, 2014, at 7:14 AM, Haritech (Gmail) via EV
ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:
 
  Trouble is you didn't own the car when it was disabled.
 
  Then the sale was fraudulent, whether intentionally so or
otherwise. The
 buyer thought he was buying a salvageable car, not a pile of scrap
metal.
 
  But, considering that it's Tesla, not the seller, who's responsible
for
 turning what was, in fact, a salvageable car into a pile of
scrap...most of
 us would consider that either theft or destruction of property.
Morally,
 whether or not legally.
 
  Imagine the car has, instead of a regular glovebox, a safe...and
that
 the entire wiring harness goes through this safe, and all the fuses
are
 inside the safe. For safety reasons, the safe is designed to lock
itself
 when an accelerometer detects a crash...but, though the manufacturer
gave
 you the key to the front of the safe when you bought the car, they
 neglected to give you the key to the back of the safe that unlocks it
after
 a crash. They still have that key, but they won't give it to you,
even
 though you ostensibly own the car.
 
  Ethical companies do not pull these sorts of shenanigans.
 
  Tesla is well within its rights to publicly disclaim responsibility
for
 what this guy does with the car he's bought in known-damaged
condition from
 a third party. They don't have -- or, at least, _shouldn't_ have --
the
 right to hinder him doing what he wants with the car, and that
includes
 maintaining control of parts of the car that they have no right
keeping out
 of the control of all their other owners.
 
  ...because, really: that's what this is all about. It's now
apparent
 that Tesla can turn iany/i of their cars into scrap metal just by
 pressing a button, and if you don't like the fact that that's what
they've
 done, your only recourse is to sue one of the richest men on the
planet.
 Good luck with that, as they say.
 
  b
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Re: [EVDL] co-operation

[Chris Meier via EV]

A recent upstart ZElectricBug is having a go at it, one of the cases you 
pointed out. Will be interesting to watch.

On September 26, 2014 3:15:37 PM CDT, EVDL Administrator via EV 
ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
On 26 Sep 2014 at 10:15, Rick Beebe via EV wrote:

 In order to make it work on a massive scale you have to pick one or
two
 models of cars so that you can streamline the process and make
 standardized components like battery racks. Choose the wrong car and
 you're dead because no one will buy it.

Even if you choose right, you have only a few years at best before the 
automaker redesigns the car.  Then you have the choice of redesigning
your 
conversion, retooling, making new molds and dies and so on; or letting
your 
conversions get older and more used.  People who are paying something
north 
of $25k for a car don't want an 8-10 year old car, even if it's
electric, so 
the answer to this one isn't hard to find.

You could pick a classic car glider to convert.  But there you run
into 
availability problems - clean gliders and parts.  You also have to
restore 
the vehicle before you can convert it.  It becomes a real challenge to
sell 
the car for a profit at a price that any normal person can or will pay.

You could contract with an automaker, almost always in Asia or Eastern 
Europe, to supply you with new gliders.  You end up buying from small, 
financially strapped automakers whose vehicles aren't state of the art
or 
appealing to buyers. Your supplier is also more likely to go out of
business 
or stop offering cars in your country.  (Electricar of Athol Fiats and 
Renaults, anyone?)

Hobbyists have built thousands of conversions, some better than others,
of 
course, but often quite successfully.  There's a whole mini-industry
that 
serves EV hobbyists with components, batteries, and even a few kits
(where 
model-specific, mostly for now rather old cars and trucks).  It's a
small 
but still (I think / hope) viable business.

However, I can't think of a case where EV conversion has ever really
been 
what you'd call successful on a commercial scale.  Solectria probably
came 
closest, and IIRC they only sold 300-some cars and trucks during the
1990s.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Lithium batteries direct from China

[Chris Meier via EV]

Lee, 

Are those A123 still on the market? I haven't kept up on the 
batteries/companies.

Are the test results available? Can you send me a CSV or similar?

-Chris 
Mr23 at Comcast dot net


On September 23, 2014 6:09:39 PM CDT, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
Marcus Reddish via EV wrote:
 Are these the old white Thunder sky cells that failed? Seem to
remember a
 picture of them leaking. Is it possible folks charged those early
cells
 like they were lead and caused (or contributed to) the failures? I
have
 not heard of any bad batch since the white cells, which was ages
ago.

Willie2 via EV wrote:
 The situation Lee describes dates to 2000-2003? Something like that.
I
 know nothing of the situation but I believe they were LCP cells.
 Starting about 2005, LFPs were the preferred cells for conversions. I
 know of no quality or delivery problems with ThunderSky LFPs.

My earliest ones were from a group buy organized by Victor Tikhonov in 
2003. They were white prismatic Lithium-Cobalt cells, in both 90ah and 
100ah models. Some of the 100ah cells were OK (maybe 3 out of 4 worked,

but didn't meet specs). *All* of the 90ah cells were junk. Some leaked,

but the main problems were low amphour capacity and excessive internal 
resistance. Resistance on the 90ah cells was so high that they 
overheated even with a 25 amp load.

Maybe some of the purchasers abused their batteries and caused their 
failures; but I certainly didn't.

I've continued to borrow, barter, and buy various lithiums for testing.

Prismatics and cylindrical, LiCo, LiMn, LiFe etc. They have 
*consistently* failed to meet specs. Typically, their amphour capacity 
and internal resistance are out of spec, with large variations between 
cells, and a number of bad cells mixed in with the good. The most
recent 
ones were GBS 100ah LiFe cells, tested just last year. The only 
exception has been A123 3.2v 2.5ah LiFe cylindrical cells; they were 
consistently good.

I'm forever hopeful that the manufacturers will get their act
together 
and start delivering an honest quality product, and stand behind them 
with a warranty. But so far, if I'd spent good money for a full pack of

any of these batteries (except A123), I would have been screwed.

At the moment, I'm considering getting some Nissan Leaf cells to test. 
I'm guessing that Nissan is likely to have made a *significant* effort 
to get a good, quality product. I just have to make sure I'm not
getting 
Nissan's QC rejects!
-- 
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do these great deeds, worth repeating.
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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Chris Meier via EV]

Try an IR-Blue, I have one, and have used it at varying distances.
https://www.google.com/search?q=ir-blue


On August 16, 2014 2:13:23 AM CDT, Martin WINLOW via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
wrote:
Dan,

You should check the instructions for the laser thermometer - I expect
that, like mine, it recommends a maximum reading distance (from object
of interest to instrument) in single figure inches!  MW


On 15 Aug 2014, at 02:32, Michael Ross via EV wrote:

 I am with Jan.
 
 The laser thermometers are averaging over the whole patch you see lit
up
 and they are not hugely accurate because of it.  If the patch is
larger
 from being farther away or not circular because it is on an angle -
it will
 not report what you are hoping for. They are best for shining inside
a
 uniform container, oven, furnace, etc. Or if at a wall, then you need
to
 take a series of readings.
 
 Imagine on one terminal you slide off to one side and average in some
 temperature from the top of the battery case.  Or you have to get
very
 close to one and far from another, and so on.
 
 Can you share what make and model of thermometer you are using?
 
 Mike
 
 
 On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 7:21 PM, David Nelson via EV
ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:
 
 If this is a change then I would investigate. I have had my pack in
 for over 4 years and have not had the issue you and others have had
 and my pack isn't exactly closed to moisture and dust. I have 40
 TS-LFP100AHA cells in a 2p20s arrangement. Because the BMS I used to
 use attached to the heads of the terminal bolts I used brass bolts
 since they are much easier to drill and tap threads in. This also
 meant that I could assemble the pack and torque the bolts
independent
 of the BMS connections so they could not interfere with any
 connections. Before assembling my pack I wire brushed all the
 terminals to shine them up. I did this with NOALOX on the terminals
 and SS wire brush so that the NOALOX would seal the metal as soon as
 possible. I also tapped all the terminal holes again, using NOALOX
on
 the tap though this was probably way overkill. I did find some
 terminals that didn't get tapped all the way down. I then put NOALOX
 on the bolt threads before assembling. This was mostly so that the
 soft Al and Cu terminals wouldn't gall up at all. I used bronze lock
 washers, too. I have had no terminals come loose or get warm.
 
 Some may say that what I did was a waste of time but they can't
 counter the results. It just works and I'm glad. LiFePO4 has been
much
 simpler than lead acid in many ways. If I were you I would clean all
 the terminals using a similar process. If I were to do it over, and
I
 have on small 4-8 cell packs, I would use NO-OX-ID A SPECIAL
because
 it doesn't seem to get sticky over time like the NOALOX does.
 
 On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 2:20 PM, Danpatgal via EV
ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:
 I am using 38x130 ah CALBs in my Lectric Leopard and have had a too
hot
 (
 40C) warning on my BMS come on a few times in the last month or so.
 Today,
 after a longer stretch of accelerating uphill to home, I checked
some of
 the
 battery posts.  Measuring with a laser sensor, several of them were
 around
 33C , in a grouping, maybe 6 or 8 posts adjacent on the most
positive
 side
 of my pack.  Posts just a few cells more negative were much cooler,
maybe
 around 26C or cooler.
 
 I checked the bolts to make sure they were tight, and didn't notice
any
 real
 problem with the connections being loose.  My only other thought is
that
 perhaps (as has been discussed in other threads), these connections
have
 corroded over time ... adding a little resistance layer (I didn't
 initially
 polish or use Noalox on those) that is now finally heating up.  I
am also
 using the original copper straps with steels M8 bolts.
 
 Are others noticing this kind of heat with the lithium cell
terminals?
 Aside from just cleaning the terminals and putting on some Noalox,
might
 there be other things to do?  I installed these in Sep. 2012, so
they are
 not quite two years in service.
 
 Thanks - Dan
 

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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)

[Chris Meier via EV]

Don't forget the overly complex drive system to support the repair and 
maintenance revenue streams. Truly a benefit for the industry.  Any collusion 
happening?


On June 26, 2014 8:28:16 PM CST, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
wrote:
Ah, that clarifies a lot.

So, you are saying that the laws that you are helping to craft
will mandate zero tail pipe emissions, even if the consequence is
that the total energy consumption increases due to the inefficiency
of the conversion to Hydrogen?
But simply the fact that natural gas combusts with a certain level
of pollutants and CO2 while Hydrogen produces only water vapor,
allows you to push Hydrogen at any cost, even if the total amount
of CO2 increases as a result and the cost of vehicles and
infrastructure
goes up unnecessarily?
That is one reason why I dislike those local suboptimizing laws
that allow only a single solution - effectively creating a monopoly.

Thanks for clarifying what you are working on and why you are here.
I'll see if I can write representatives to warn for the boondoggle
that you are helping to create.
I suggest others with representatives in California do the same.

Promoting the use of natural gas in cars (which is normal in many
countries)
would be a worthy clean air goal, reducing the pollutants and the CO2
but the use of Hydrogen as intermediate storage is going to make
everyone's life difficult for a while, until we truly see 
that the emperor has no clothes on.

I am afraid that I can't wish you success.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: Mark Abramowitz [mailto:ma...@enviropolicy.com] 
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 6:14 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)

Sorry, got interrupted and accidentally sent it.

On Jun 26, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Cor van de Water via EV
ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 Yes, an energy carrier. I won't argue efficiency with you.
 
 But that is the biggest problem of Hydrogen and the reason
 that everyone who understands Physics draws the conclusion
 that there is no future in Hydrogen as fuel because it is
 worse than just using the source energy (that what is used
 to generate the Hydrogen in the first place).
 Converting to Hydrogen is just creating a loss and a headache.
 (headache of containing and transporting this aggressive element)
 So, except for a few niches, there is no place for Hydrogen.

I will ignore the condescending comments.

If you are saying that using natural gas directly in an ICE as opposed
to converting it to Hydrogen is a more efficient use, I would tell you
that you are missing my point. I will take the blame for not
communicating well enough.

The purpose of the ZEV mandate is to transform the fleet to *Zero*
emission vehicles. We have public health standards that mandate these
reductions. There is no method that I am currently aware of that can
directly use natural gas (in an automobile) without combusting the
fuel.
Right there you have lost the design objective. Emissions are no longer
zero.

 
 Of course, in a world void of scientists and filled with people
 who make vision papers based on someone else's fantasies,
 there is only one bright future - everything will be converted
 over to Hydrogen soon.

I'll ignore the condescending and insulting comments you've just made
about the physicists and other scientists working on this.



 
 Better hope that H2 is not a loser, because then we are all losers.
 
 Hope has never changed the laws of Physics that I am aware of.
 
 That is the reason that you get such a push-back on this list,
 because there are plenty people here who do not have an opinion
 about Hydrogen (opinions have also not changed Physics) but who
 *understand* how efficiency work in terms of Physics and therefor
 they can *calculate* that Hydrogen is a losing proposition.
 
 It was a clear red flag when you avoided at all cost to discuss
 the technical details or Physics, you are now even blatantly saying
 that you do not want to discuss that topic.
 Either you *know* that this is the biggest problem of FCV and you
 prefer to avoid that subject, or you are truly unaware of the
 hot air balloon that is being passed around and which will cost the
 Californian taxpaers many millions of dollars without resuting in
 anything that will actually help to improve clean air.
 All the more troubling that you, 30 year clean air activist, 
 are pursuing this non-option with so much vigor!!!
 
 For the record - I have no vested interest in or outside Hydrogen.
 I just have a BEV as daily driver and I am passionate about
 energy efficiency, because the best way to clean up pollution
 is to avoid creating it in the first place. And my background
 allows me to understand laws of Physics, which often leads me to
 clash 

Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)

[Chris Meier via EV]

Can you tell us how the survey was worded? The one resulting in a desire for 
renewable fuels?

On June 26, 2014 11:25:14 AM CST, Mark Abramowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
wrote:
On Jun 26, 2014, at 8:20 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 Are you saying that the main problem with battery electrics
 is also that most of the power it uses is not renewable?
 
 Careful:  Studies have shown that about HALF of EV buyers also have
SOLAR
 or sign up for 100% solar/wind from their utilities.  It is -not- a
 coincidence that those who want to be part of the future of clean
energy
 do both.  SO -never-  use the published utility mix to derive
carbon
 impact of EV's without dividing it at least in HALF even today to
account
 for the demographics of EV buyers 50% of which use 100% emissions
free
 energy.

Very interesting and promising statistic.

Do you have a cite?

This is the low-hanging fruit. Great to see what people will do given a
choice.

Good sign for future of renewables.

As an aside, an OEM rep told me point blank our customers want
renewable fuels.


 
 What % of electricity comes from solar right now?
 
 Though the grid maybe 40% coal in some places, you must apply these
 corrections for EV electricity:
 
 1) 50% of EV buyers use only 100% renewable energy for charging
 2) The EV is about 3 times more efficient in total energy per mile
than
 gasoline
 
 As a result 40% times 50% times 33% gives only about 7% of EV energy
comes
 from coal (and it only gets better every day).  Not the 100% stack
 emissions that the climate change deniers want you to believe.
 

I don't think that's right either. Too simplistic. GREET model data is
better.


 Right now, there is NO silver bullet.
 
 YES there is! and it is EV's and solar/wind.  When you say right
now you
 are pessimistically using today's pitiful 2% contribution of solar on
the
 grid, but that includes 98% of decades old LEGACY systems.

No, I'm not using that assumption. I am talking about vehicles, not the
source of the energy. I am assuming that one size does not fit all. If
you don't provide a ZEV that works for them, they will use an ICE.

Even for existing ZEV users. 

A recent post had a died-in-the-wool BEV user talking about how they
reluctantly had to use their ICE to take someone to the airport.

Point is, you need every emission reduction you can get, and every
possible way to change out the fleet to ZEV. BEVs are just one part of
a mix that will change over time. FCEVs are an important part, too, and
in fact expected to exceed BEVs in the mix. The market and advances in
technology will determine how that eventually looks.


 
 When I see right now I don't see the 2%, I see the 400% annual
growth
 *rate* of renewables and EV's and the 20% decline of coal, and
gasoline
 imports!
 
 I see the 93% instant *average* reduction in carbon emissions for
each new
 EV on the road. Or, for half of us that subscribe to 100% renewable
 energy, a 100% reduction.
 
 Bob, WB4aPR
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