Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> but I think it's a pretty safe bet that the embedded energy
> of the PV system loses against passive solar.

10 years ago yes.  Now, not at all!  Just google for "solar thermal is
really,really dead"...
Here is the article that comes up.

https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/solar-thermal-is-really-reall
y-dead

Remember there has been a THIRTY-to-ONE cost effectiveness improvement in
water heating with heatpumps and PV, because solar has gone down 10-to one
in cost and HP efficiency improves heating by 300%.  Stop clinging to long
held misbeliefs about solar thermal.

AND the cost of a solar system has gone down another 25% since even that
article was written!
He used $3.75/W for solar when it is now like $2.75

Plus he does not even mention the wasted assets in a thermal system when
one does not use 100% of their solar water every single day.  Whereas with
PV/HP thermal grid-tie, you get 100% retail for every photon that falls on
your roof whether you use it for water heating or not. (depending on yoru
state's net-metering deal)...

As he says, the economics of solar thermal water heating are dead, dead,
dead.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Jan Steinman via EV
Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2019 5:28 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Jan Steinman 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and
waterheating)

> From: Lee Hart  It's like the "ICE" solution
> wins. When you treat oil supplies as "limitless", then extremely
> inefficient ICEs are the popular choice, because it's cheaper.

Thanks for that, Lee.

I don't have numbers for a full-on "EMERGY" analysis of the two, and have
no desire to get into a religious argument, but I think it's a pretty safe
bet that the embedded energy of the PV system loses against passive solar.

And then there's the whole complexity argument: boxes full of power
electronics and microprocessors, rotating components, rare-earth
materials, etc., versus the sheer simplicity of a drain-back system that
only uses copper, aluminum, and some tubing.

The entire "dollars and cents" argument doesn't make any sense in a world
that is awash in fracked oil, produced at a loss, in our zeal to keep
civilization humming along.

But I can tell you which system I'd rather have if civilization crashes,
and it won't be the one powered by a stream of diesel-powered UPS trucks,
delivering replacement parts!

I'm reminded of the Panarchy model, which posits that complexity is
powered by energy. If you think energy is going into decline, you should
be seeking simpler solutions, not more complex ones.

Jan

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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)

[moskowitz via EV]

We have a GE hybrid heat pump water heater in our basement. We select the 
resistance coil in the winter, because the heat pump cools the room too much. 
We use the heat pump mode in the winter, and route the condensate.down to one 
of our sumps.


Len M.

> On July 18, 2019 at 5:03 PM Peri Hartman via EV  mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org > wrote:
> 
> 
> (Really off topic, here) I'm curious about the overall efficiency of
> heat pump HW heaters. If it's in your garage (or basement), and it's
> drawing heat from the garage, that's going to create a very cold garage,
> right ? Further, if adjoining spaces or spaces above aren't fully
> insulated from the garage, you'll also be increasing the heat load in
> those spaces. All this would seem to reduce the efficiency of the HW
> heater dramatically.
> 
> So, shouldn't the heat pump be vented to the outdoors ? If so, then its
> efficiency would be determined by the climate where you live. In winter
> it may rely solely on resistance heating. Though it should do quite well
> in summer in most parts of the US.
> 
> Peri
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Robert Bruninga via EV"  mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org >
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"  mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org >
> Cc: "Robert Bruninga" mailto:bruni...@usna.edu >
> Sent: 18-Jul-19 1:23:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and
> waterheating)
> 
> >> *-Because a heat pump system is using energy to "move" existing heat,
> >> it gives you 400% (or more!) efficiencies. [i.e. you use 800 watts to
> >> drive a compressor and fans, but get 3,200 watts of heat into the
> >> tank, while cooling the area around the water heater.]
> >
> >I think it is more like 3 to one. The higher temp you want the water, the
> >lower the efficiency and can range between 2 to 1 or 4 to 1.
> >
> >> I haven't shopped for heat pump water heaters. It looks like I should.
> >> I have recently resolved to stop using my propane water heater...
> >
> >Here is my summary. They are often called HYBRID water heaters with the
> >heatpump heating the incoming water at the bottom of the tank and then 
> (if
> >enabled) a resistance element at the top to provide rapid response and
> >higher temperatures. Remember the heatpump is the most efficient when it
> >is throwing energy at the incoming 60F water with a greater delta-T
> >
> >The efficiency goes down as the temperature rises. SO I have mine set to
> >heat the bottom of the tank to only 105F (where it is still pretty
> >efficient) and then the top coil heats the rest to 115F.
> >
> >IN fact, I really have the Heatpump one in series with the old pure
> >electric one and both have an added 4" insulation around them. So I let
> >the heatpump one heat its entire tank to 105F, from there it goes into 
> the
> >old heater which has the bottom element turned off and the top element 
> set
> >to 115F. SO the bulk of the heating (55 to 105F (50 degrees) is done at
> >3:1 electric effdiciency, and the final 105-115 (10 degrees) is straight
> >electric at 1:1 (but saves wear and tear on the heatpump, working much
> >harder j ust to get the final 10 degrees).
> >
> >Remember you can drastically change the "capacity" of a water heater
> >simply by the temperature setting. If you set it to 140F, then when you
> >take a shower, you only use a little bit of hot water mixed with more 
> cold
> >water to get to final temp. This gives you a lot of "hot" water capacity.
> >
> >If you don't use that much hot water, then set the temperature to 110F,
> >but now then your shower will be using mostly hot water from the tank and
> >only using a little bit of cold water. Now your capacity is much less but
> >you save energy by not throwing a higher temperature away mixing it all
> >with cold water.
> >
> >Your wife may vary.
> >
> >Bob
> >http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html
> >___
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> >Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA 
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)

[Jan Steinman via EV]

> From: Lee Hart 
> It's like the "ICE" solution wins. When you treat oil supplies as 
> "limitless", then extremely inefficient ICEs are the popular choice, 
> because it's cheaper.

Thanks for that, Lee.

I don't have numbers for a full-on "EMERGY" analysis of the two, and have no 
desire to get into a religious argument, but I think it's a pretty safe bet 
that the embedded energy of the PV system loses against passive solar.

And then there's the whole complexity argument: boxes full of power electronics 
and microprocessors, rotating components, rare-earth materials, etc., versus 
the sheer simplicity of a drain-back system that only uses copper, aluminum, 
and some tubing.

The entire "dollars and cents" argument doesn't make any sense in a world that 
is awash in fracked oil, produced at a loss, in our zeal to keep civilization 
humming along.

But I can tell you which system I'd rather have if civilization crashes, and it 
won't be the one powered by a stream of diesel-powered UPS trucks, delivering 
replacement parts!

I'm reminded of the Panarchy model, which posits that complexity is powered by 
energy. If you think energy is going into decline, you should be seeking 
simpler solutions, not more complex ones.

Jan

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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

You are correct on all counts.  And so purchasers of HP water heating
should consider their situation.

If the HP water heater is in your basement and you already run a
de-humidifier, then the Hot water from a HP water heater is virtually
free.  Because the cold side of the coils will condense the humidity out
of the basement and you can stop burning all that energy in a
dehumidifier.

If your heatpump water heater is in a room in the conditionemd part of the
house and you live in Florida, then again, it is almost free because the
cold side of the water heater is cooling the house.

The worst case would be a HP water heater inside a conditioned space in
the north where you are dumping cool that you don't really want a good
portion of the year.

Or you can add louvers and doors to manage the heat or cool as the seasons
change.  Put it outside in a closet with a south facing wall of glass
windows.  Then the sun provides the heat.

Oh, and my unfinished basement has never changed temperature that we can
tell.   It is 60F in the summer, 60F in the winter.  I think of the HP
water heater in the basement as a "geothermal" heatpump because no matter
how much heat it draws from the basement, all that is being replenished by
the 1500 sQft of surrounding floor and dirt at 60F.

Now I am sure it is not really 60.0F all the time, but we just do not
notice any change season to season not worth putting a themrmoeter down
there to worry about.

Bob


-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2019 5:04 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Peri Hartman 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and
waterheating)

(Really off topic, here) I'm curious about the overall efficiency of heat
pump HW heaters. If it's in your garage (or basement), and it's drawing
heat from the garage, that's going to create a very cold garage, right ?
Further, if adjoining spaces or spaces above aren't fully insulated from
the garage, you'll also be increasing the heat load in those spaces. All
this would seem to reduce the efficiency of the HW heater dramatically.

So, shouldn't the heat pump be vented to the outdoors ? If so, then its
efficiency would be determined by the climate where you live. In winter it
may rely solely on resistance heating. Though it should do quite well in
summer in most parts of the US.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Robert Bruninga" 
Sent: 18-Jul-19 1:23:02 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and
waterheating)

>>  *-Because a heat pump system is using energy to "move" existing
>> heat,  it gives you 400% (or more!) efficiencies. [i.e. you use 800
>> watts to  drive a compressor and fans, but get 3,200 watts of heat
>> into the  tank, while cooling the area around the water heater.]
>
>I think it is more like 3 to one.  The higher temp you want the water,
>the lower the efficiency and can range between 2 to 1 or 4 to 1.
>
>>  I haven't shopped for heat pump water heaters.  It looks like I
should.
>>  I have recently resolved to stop using my propane water heater...
>
>Here is my summary.  They are often called HYBRID water heaters with
>the heatpump heating the incoming water at the bottom of the tank and
>then (if
>enabled) a resistance element at the top to provide rapid response and
>higher temperatures.  Remember the heatpump is the most efficient when
>it is throwing energy at the incoming 60F water with a greater delta-T
>
>The efficiency goes down as the temperature rises.  SO I have mine set
>to heat the bottom of the tank to only 105F (where it is still pretty
>efficient) and then the top coil heats the rest to 115F.
>
>IN fact, I really have the Heatpump one in series with the old pure
>electric one and both have an added 4" insulation around them.  So I
>let the heatpump one heat its entire tank to 105F, from there it goes
>into the old heater which has the bottom element turned off and the top
>element set to 115F.  SO the bulk of the heating (55 to 105F (50
>degrees) is done at
>3:1 electric effdiciency, and the final 105-115 (10 degrees) is
>straight electric at 1:1 (but saves wear and tear on the heatpump,
>working much harder j ust to get the final 10 degrees).
>
>Remember you can drastically change the "capacity" of a water heater
>simply by the temperature setting.  If you set it to 140F, then when
>you take a shower, you only use a little bit of hot water mixed with
>more cold water to get to final temp.  This gives you a lot of "hot"
water capacity.
>
>If you don't use that much hot water, then set the temperature to 110F,
>but now then your shower will be using mostly hot water from the ta

Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (East/West array summing)

[Willie via EV]

On 7/18/19 3:33 PM, Robert Bruninga wrote:


4) Do not worry about overloading your grid Inverter.


I use mostly micro inverters and do not worry about overloading them.  I 
do have one string 5kw inverter that is fed by 8kw worth of panels.  It 
does indeed "peg out" at 5kw.


I do overload my transformer.  I have 30+kw of PV feeding into a 15kva 
transformer.  Static voltage is 245-248vac.  As my production rises 
above 10kw, my voltage rises to 260 and a bit beyond.  Above about 258v 
inverters start shutting down; their energy lost.  I rarely see more 
than about 16kw produced.  I have requested that my utility upgrade the 
transformer to 37.5 kva.  Also requested, a lower static voltage. 
Producing more total energy with my current transformer is my primary 
interest in east-west pointing.

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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)

[Peri Hartman via EV]

(Really off topic, here) I'm curious about the overall efficiency of 
heat pump HW heaters. If it's in your garage (or basement), and it's 
drawing heat from the garage, that's going to create a very cold garage, 
right ? Further, if adjoining spaces or spaces above aren't fully 
insulated from the garage, you'll also be increasing the heat load in 
those spaces. All this would seem to reduce the efficiency of the HW 
heater dramatically.


So, shouldn't the heat pump be vented to the outdoors ? If so, then its 
efficiency would be determined by the climate where you live. In winter 
it may rely solely on resistance heating. Though it should do quite well 
in summer in most parts of the US.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Robert Bruninga" 
Sent: 18-Jul-19 1:23:02 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and 
waterheating)



 *-Because a heat pump system is using energy to "move" existing heat,
 it gives you 400% (or more!) efficiencies. [i.e. you use 800 watts to
 drive a compressor and fans, but get 3,200 watts of heat into the
 tank, while cooling the area around the water heater.]


I think it is more like 3 to one.  The higher temp you want the water, the
lower the efficiency and can range between 2 to 1 or 4 to 1.


 I haven't shopped for heat pump water heaters.  It looks like I should.
 I have recently resolved to stop using my propane water heater...


Here is my summary.  They are often called HYBRID water heaters with the
heatpump heating the incoming water at the bottom of the tank and then (if
enabled) a resistance element at the top to provide rapid response and
higher temperatures.  Remember the heatpump is the most efficient when it
is throwing energy at the incoming 60F water with a greater delta-T

The efficiency goes down as the temperature rises.  SO I have mine set to
heat the bottom of the tank to only 105F (where it is still pretty
efficient) and then the top coil heats the rest to 115F.

IN fact, I really have the Heatpump one in series with the old pure
electric one and both have an added 4" insulation around them.  So I let
the heatpump one heat its entire tank to 105F, from there it goes into the
old heater which has the bottom element turned off and the top element set
to 115F.  SO the bulk of the heating (55 to 105F (50 degrees) is done at
3:1 electric effdiciency, and the final 105-115 (10 degrees) is straight
electric at 1:1 (but saves wear and tear on the heatpump, working much
harder j ust to get the final 10 degrees).

Remember you can drastically change the "capacity" of a water heater
simply by the temperature setting.  If you set it to 140F, then when you
take a shower, you only use a little bit of hot water mixed with more cold
water to get to final temp.  This gives you a lot of "hot" water capacity.

If you don't use that much hot water, then set the temperature to 110F,
but now then your shower will be using mostly hot water from the tank and
only using a little bit of cold water.  Now your capacity is much less but
you save energy by not throwing a  higher temperature away mixing it all
with cold water.

Your wife may vary.

Bob
http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (East/West array summing)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> Most of my Blogger posts deal, rather disjointedly, with my PV
adventure:
> https://wmckemie.blogspot.com/

I agree completely with your doubling up panels with E/W facing rows on
the same inverter, but have you really looked at the best angle?

Here is what to consider:
1) The ideal southern facing array is set to your latitude.
2) But the more East or West you go, the optimum angle is lower.
3) If you are truly East or West, then almost 20 degrees  is better.
4) Do not worry about overloading your grid Inverter.
5) The MPPT algorithm in your MPPT grid-tie inverter will automatically
always limite your output to the rating of that inverter.  So even if you
get 1.414 times more solar power at noon because both sides of the "rail"
is getting sun at the same time for an hour or so, still the MPPT
algorithm is only going to produce the rated power of the inverter.
6) Even though it is producing TWICE the energy because it is doing it
twice as long with both the East and West rails...

Bob,
http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> *-Because a heat pump system is using energy to "move" existing heat,
> it gives you 400% (or more!) efficiencies. [i.e. you use 800 watts to
> drive a compressor and fans, but get 3,200 watts of heat into the
> tank, while cooling the area around the water heater.]

I think it is more like 3 to one.  The higher temp you want the water, the
lower the efficiency and can range between 2 to 1 or 4 to 1.

> I haven't shopped for heat pump water heaters.  It looks like I should.
> I have recently resolved to stop using my propane water heater...

Here is my summary.  They are often called HYBRID water heaters with the
heatpump heating the incoming water at the bottom of the tank and then (if
enabled) a resistance element at the top to provide rapid response and
higher temperatures.  Remember the heatpump is the most efficient when it
is throwing energy at the incoming 60F water with a greater delta-T

The efficiency goes down as the temperature rises.  SO I have mine set to
heat the bottom of the tank to only 105F (where it is still pretty
efficient) and then the top coil heats the rest to 115F.

IN fact, I really have the Heatpump one in series with the old pure
electric one and both have an added 4" insulation around them.  So I let
the heatpump one heat its entire tank to 105F, from there it goes into the
old heater which has the bottom element turned off and the top element set
to 115F.  SO the bulk of the heating (55 to 105F (50 degrees) is done at
3:1 electric effdiciency, and the final 105-115 (10 degrees) is straight
electric at 1:1 (but saves wear and tear on the heatpump, working much
harder j ust to get the final 10 degrees).

Remember you can drastically change the "capacity" of a water heater
simply by the temperature setting.  If you set it to 140F, then when you
take a shower, you only use a little bit of hot water mixed with more cold
water to get to final temp.  This gives you a lot of "hot" water capacity.

If you don't use that much hot water, then set the temperature to 110F,
but now then your shower will be using mostly hot water from the tank and
only using a little bit of cold water.  Now your capacity is much less but
you save energy by not throwing a  higher temperature away mixing it all
with cold water.

Your wife may vary.

Bob
http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Just some nitpics...

>> Is solar thermal water heating *still* more efficient?

> Suppose you have a limited roof area that can only collect 1 KWH of
energy.
> PV cells might convert that into 150 watts of electricity.  A solar
water heat
> might convert it into 300 watts of heat in your water heater. Which is
more useful to you?

But using a heatpump water heater can convert that 150W of electricity to
the equivalent of 450 Watts (BTU's) due to its Coeficient of performance
being 3 to 1.

> But most roofs are so large that the amount of solar energy available is
"limitless".

I disagree.  Almost everyone is roof limited.  They use more energy than
they have roof.
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)

[paul dove via EV]

No energy source is free. The cost is in extracting it and efficiency has a 
very narrow definition in engineering and does not include cost.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 18, 2019, at 10:33 AM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>> Is solar thermal water heating *still* more efficient?
> 
> "Efficient" has a different meaning when your energy source is free. Energy 
> efficiency usually means getting the most good out of a finite source of 
> energy.
> 
> Suppose you have a limited roof area that can only collect 1 KWH of energy. 
> PV cells might convert that into 150 watts of electricity. A solar water heat 
> might convert it into 300 watts of heat in your water heater. Which is more 
> useful to you?
> 
> But most roofs are so large that the amount of solar energy available is 
> "limitless". You're limited more by what you can spend, and what appearance 
> dictates. PV is more popular than thermal because it's cheaper. The 
> efficiency is less, but you make up for it with more panels.
> 
> It's like the "ICE" solution wins. When you treat oil supplies as 
> "limitless", then extremely inefficient ICEs are the popular choice, because 
> it's cheaper.
> 
> -- 
> In software development, there are two kinds of error: Conceptual
> errors, implementation errors, and off-by-one errors. (anonymous)
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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> 

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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)

[Lee Hart via EV]

Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

Is solar thermal water heating *still* more efficient?


"Efficient" has a different meaning when your energy source is free. 
Energy efficiency usually means getting the most good out of a finite 
source of energy.


Suppose you have a limited roof area that can only collect 1 KWH of 
energy. PV cells might convert that into 150 watts of electricity. A 
solar water heat might convert it into 300 watts of heat in your water 
heater. Which is more useful to you?


But most roofs are so large that the amount of solar energy available is 
"limitless". You're limited more by what you can spend, and what 
appearance dictates. PV is more popular than thermal because it's 
cheaper. The efficiency is less, but you make up for it with more panels.


It's like the "ICE" solution wins. When you treat oil supplies as 
"limitless", then extremely inefficient ICEs are the popular choice, 
because it's cheaper.


--
In software development, there are two kinds of error: Conceptual
errors, implementation errors, and off-by-one errors. (anonymous)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)

[Jay Summet via EV]

On 7/18/19 7:43 AM, Willie via EV wrote:



On 7/18/19 6:33 AM, Jay Summet via EV wrote:

*-Because a heat pump system is using energy to "move" existing heat, 
it gives you 400% (or more!) efficiencies. [i.e. you use 800 watts to 
drive a compressor and fans, but get 3,200 watts of heat into the 
tank, while cooling the area around the water heater.]


I haven't shopped for heat pump water heaters.  It looks like I should. 
Does the "800 watts" mean that they will operate on 120vac?  I have 
recently resolved to stop using my propane water heater but do not have 
240vac wiring to the water heater closet area.


I was using the 800 watts x4 3200 watts as an example, I suspect they 
may operate in that general range when using the heat pump, but you'd 
have to research a specific model to find the actual usage.


They are more expensive than restive element water heaters.  ($1,300-$2,000)

On average, their current draw is lower than a regular electric water 
heater (when using the heat pump) but I believe that most of them are 
designed to work on 240 volts to replace a regular electric water heater.


If you have a small (20 amp?) line to your hot water heater room, you 
may be able to change it from 120v to 240v (if you don't need a 
neutral), but I think you will probably have to pony up and upgrade the 
electrical run to your hot water heater (if switching from propane) as
some (most?) of them  have "backup" heating elements that they can turn 
on if they need to heat a lot of water quickly which means that their 
peak draw may be the same as a resistive hot water heater.


Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)

[Willie via EV]

On 7/18/19 6:33 AM, Jay Summet via EV wrote:

*-Because a heat pump system is using energy to "move" existing heat, it 
gives you 400% (or more!) efficiencies. [i.e. you use 800 watts to drive 
a compressor and fans, but get 3,200 watts of heat into the tank, while 
cooling the area around the water heater.]


I haven't shopped for heat pump water heaters.  It looks like I should. 
Does the "800 watts" mean that they will operate on 120vac?  I have 
recently resolved to stop using my propane water heater but do not have 
240vac wiring to the water heater closet area.


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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers) (Net meter?)

[Willie via EV]

On 7/18/19 3:47 AM, moskowitz via EV wrote:

On-peak generation only offsets on-peak usage. The same goes for off-peak.


On July 17, 2019 at 11:07 PM Robert Bruninga  wrote:

 Is it true that only on-peak overgeneration can then credit on-credit 
usage?  IE, you dont geet to apply expensive kWh to cheap ones you use?

 Or is it a kWh is a kWh?  Or is the netting by price in and out?


It is unfortunate that we have such wild variance with location.

Our utility uses flat rates, no variation with time of day/week.  Our 
"net metering" deal used to be full credit for over production through 
the one month billing period.  You could use the grid as a free battery 
through the billing period.  Long term over production was bought for 
cash once a year at $.04-$.05.


They changed the deal about a year ago, grandfathering the older deal 
customers.  New deal is no free battery service.  All energy from grid 
is billed at $.09-$.10.  All produced energy is credited at ~$.06.  I've 
been using the PowerWall to completely avoid grid energy costs.  Though 
that $.03-$.04 spread will never pay for the PowerWall.  The new deal 
allows me to pay the $22.50 connection fee monthly with the credit from 
production; the old deal had me paying monthly for the connection fee 
before getting the annual credit.

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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)

[Jay Summet via EV]

On 7/18/19 12:01 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

Is solar thermal water heating *still* more efficient?



With a perfect system, solar thermal is probably still more efficient 
from a "space on your roof" perspective. [a "square feet of solar 
collectors needed to heat the water".] (I'm talking about the vacuum 
insulated solar tubes, with a properly sized and insulated system, which 
can get 80% of the solar energy that hits it into the water.)


However, from a cost perspective, assuming you are going to be 
installing a grid tie solar system anyways, it is probably most cost 
effective to add a few more panels (say 4-8) and buy a heat pump water 
heater. It certainly makes the installation easier when compared to a 
solar thermal hot water system, which also reduces costs.


With 20% efficient solar panels, a grid tie inverter (90% efficient), 
and a heat pump hot water heater (400% efficient - gives .20 * 0.90 * 4 
= 72% solar energy conversion to heat in the water*). So, you can get 
around the same heating performance for a very similar price just by 
purchasing a few more solar panels and the heat pump water heater.


This makes special sense if you have excess heat in your house or garage 
you'd prefer to be in the hot water (i.e. you live in Florida, and 
having a mini AC unit on top of your hot water heater is a good thing 
for your house's total energy usage.)


Jay

*-Because a heat pump system is using energy to "move" existing heat, it 
gives you 400% (or more!) efficiencies. [i.e. you use 800 watts to drive 
a compressor and fans, but get 3,200 watts of heat into the tank, while 
cooling the area around the water heater.]


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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)

[Willie via EV]

On 7/17/19 10:04 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

Where are you getting 25 cents a watt panels? Must be some real junk


sunelec.com sells them by the truck load, or pallet from Miami.
Currently the 25 cents a watt are for 325W (72 cell panels).  Minimum
quantity is about 25 on a pallet and last time I bought some from there, I
think my two pallets cost about $500 trucking from Miami to Maryland.


From Texas, I've been buying used 245w used 60 cell panels.  Delivered 
cost has been $53.36/panel, $.22/watt.  My ground installed cost is 
$.40-$.50 / watt.


Most of my Blogger posts deal, rather disjointedly, with my PV adventure:
https://wmckemie.blogspot.com/



These are the great deals.  But they have all kinds of panels still below
50 cents a watt.

We used to see these deals often, before Trump slapped on the tarrifs.

Both my house and church have used their panels.  All are prime items.

Bob, WB4APR

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 10:48 PM Alan Arrison via EV 
wrote:


Where are you getting 25 cents a watt panels? Must be some real junk.


On 7/17/2019 2:28 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

Inefficent yes, but hooking up 2 wires is a lot easier than building one

out

of copper, plywood, glass and paint.  With solar panels costing only 25
cents per watt (on a good deal) then the investment in 4 panels (800W) is


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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers) (Net meter?)

[moskowitz via EV]

On-peak generation only offsets on-peak usage. The same goes for off-peak.

> On July 17, 2019 at 11:07 PM Robert Bruninga  wrote:
> 
> Is it true that only on-peak overgeneration can then credit on-credit 
> usage?  IE, you dont geet to apply expensive kWh to cheap ones you use?
> 
> Or is it a kWh is a kWh?  Or is the netting by price in and out?
> thanks
> bob
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Is solar thermal water heating *still* more efficient?

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Jul 17, 2019, at 11:28 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> Inefficent yes, but hooking up 2 wires is a lot easier than building one out
> of copper, plywood, glass and paint.  With solar panels costing only 25
> cents per watt (on a good deal) then the investment in 4 panels (800W) is
> about $275 and totally maintenance free.  Where as cobbling together one
> will only work in the summer, or if you want to use antifreeze, then you
> have to add pumps and heat exchangers, etc.  And will it work 20 years
> without any attention?
> 
> But you are right.  You can triple the efficiency with a modern heatpump
> water heater, BUT then it wont run on DC, so then you have to have 4 times
> more panels and then do the grid-tie-only-when-running trick, and it simply
> is not worth it.  Better to just bight the bullet and be grid tied.
> 
> Oh, I assume you have seen the articles that thermal solar hot water heating
> was dead in 2008 and now is considered dead-dead-dead.  It is more efficient
> and economical to do grid-tie solar and a heatpump water heater.  Because
> since 2005, price of PV panels has dropped ten to one and heatpump water
> heater is 3 times more efficient.  (combined, then is 30 times more cost
> effective than it used to be.  Plus, the biggie, is that for every drop of
> hot water you do not use, then you still get full 100% retail value for your
> solar energy.  Whereas with thermal solar, unless you use 100% of  your hot
> water every single day, then your thermal panels are doing nothing once the
> tank is hot.
> 
> Bob
> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of Jan Steinman via EV
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and
> waterheating)
> 
>> From: Robert Bruninga 
>> 
>> … using about 4 Solar panels
>> for the bottom coil in a water heater are a good  idea.  You need hot
>> water every day, and so this gives you 100% effectiveness of these 4
>> or so panels.
> 
> Seems like a horribly inefficient way of heating water!
> 
> Direct solar hot water is a much better use of resources and solar energy.
> Someone who's handy can easily cobble one up out of copper tubing, plywood,
> glass, and some flat-black spray paint.
> 
> Jan
> 
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> 
> 

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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Thanks for the agreement. When I first read your paragraph, there was a
smudge on my screen and I read this line as:

"There is of course where to put the wire "
I read as "There is of course where to put the wife.".

so true!
Bob

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 10:09 PM Michael Ross via EV 
wrote:

> There was a time when solar thermal and its 70% efficiency made sense,
> because PV cost too much.  But that time has passed.
>
> I think that PV is now better than solar thermal. There are a lot of hidden
> costs and difficulties putting a thermal collector on one's roof. There is
> a bunch of piping that not everyone wants to be obvious or cobbled looking.
> You have to poke holes into your attic and elsewhere. It needs to be
> insulated and to not break in the winter.  You have to have pumps and
> valves and drains. You need a special water heater, and it needs electric
> backup anyway. You have to own ladders and be able to work safely with
> them. You have to be more than just a little handy. There are HOA and
> building quality requirements for proper design and installation. It takes
> up space where PV could go.
>
> Or you can mount a few relativity inexpensive arrays and wire them up.
> There is of course where to put the wire. Much easier to do a neat and tidy
> job, no leaks through the roof, no fancy heater with a heat exchanger.
>
> The business of building and installing solar thermal collectors is just
> about done in because of the constantly falling cost of PV.  Solar thermal
> ends up more complicated, expensive, and has more opportunity for error.
>
> I thought Robert's solutions were attractive. I provided certified and
> custom testing for solar thermal collectors for 5 years. I am handy enough,
> but I would go with PV, not thermal. Far too much trouble the thermal
> business.
>
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 1:51 PM Jan Steinman via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > > From: Robert Bruninga 
> > >
> > > … using about 4 Solar panels
> > > for the bottom coil in a water heater are a good  idea.  You need hot
> > water
> > > every day, and so this gives you 100% effectiveness of these 4 or so
> > > panels.
> >
> > Seems like a horribly inefficient way of heating water!
> >
> > Direct solar hot water is a much better use of resources and solar
> energy.
> > Someone who's handy can easily cobble one up out of copper tubing,
> plywood,
> > glass, and some flat-black spray paint.
> >
> > Jan
> >
> > ___
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> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
>
> --
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
> (919) 576-0824  Tablet,
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> Where are you getting 25 cents a watt panels? Must be some real junk

sunelec.com sells them by the truck load, or pallet from Miami.
Currently the 25 cents a watt are for 325W (72 cell panels).  Minimum
quantity is about 25 on a pallet and last time I bought some from there, I
think my two pallets cost about $500 trucking from Miami to Maryland.

These are the great deals.  But they have all kinds of panels still below
50 cents a watt.

We used to see these deals often, before Trump slapped on the tarrifs.

Both my house and church have used their panels.  All are prime items.

Bob, WB4APR

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 10:48 PM Alan Arrison via EV 
wrote:

> Where are you getting 25 cents a watt panels? Must be some real junk.
>
>
> On 7/17/2019 2:28 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> > Inefficent yes, but hooking up 2 wires is a lot easier than building one
> out
> > of copper, plywood, glass and paint.  With solar panels costing only 25
> > cents per watt (on a good deal) then the investment in 4 panels (800W) is
> >
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)

[Alan Arrison via EV]

Where are you getting 25 cents a watt panels? Must be some real junk.


On 7/17/2019 2:28 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

Inefficent yes, but hooking up 2 wires is a lot easier than building one out
of copper, plywood, glass and paint.  With solar panels costing only 25
cents per watt (on a good deal) then the investment in 4 panels (800W) is


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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)

[Michael Ross via EV]

There was a time when solar thermal and its 70% efficiency made sense,
because PV cost too much.  But that time has passed.

I think that PV is now better than solar thermal. There are a lot of hidden
costs and difficulties putting a thermal collector on one's roof. There is
a bunch of piping that not everyone wants to be obvious or cobbled looking.
You have to poke holes into your attic and elsewhere. It needs to be
insulated and to not break in the winter.  You have to have pumps and
valves and drains. You need a special water heater, and it needs electric
backup anyway. You have to own ladders and be able to work safely with
them. You have to be more than just a little handy. There are HOA and
building quality requirements for proper design and installation. It takes
up space where PV could go.

Or you can mount a few relativity inexpensive arrays and wire them up.
There is of course where to put the wire. Much easier to do a neat and tidy
job, no leaks through the roof, no fancy heater with a heat exchanger.

The business of building and installing solar thermal collectors is just
about done in because of the constantly falling cost of PV.  Solar thermal
ends up more complicated, expensive, and has more opportunity for error.

I thought Robert's solutions were attractive. I provided certified and
custom testing for solar thermal collectors for 5 years. I am handy enough,
but I would go with PV, not thermal. Far too much trouble the thermal
business.

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 1:51 PM Jan Steinman via EV 
wrote:

> > From: Robert Bruninga 
> >
> > … using about 4 Solar panels
> > for the bottom coil in a water heater are a good  idea.  You need hot
> water
> > every day, and so this gives you 100% effectiveness of these 4 or so
> > panels.
>
> Seems like a horribly inefficient way of heating water!
>
> Direct solar hot water is a much better use of resources and solar energy.
> Someone who's handy can easily cobble one up out of copper tubing, plywood,
> glass, and some flat-black spray paint.
>
> Jan
>
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

-- 
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(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
(919) 576-0824  Tablet,
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Inefficent yes, but hooking up 2 wires is a lot easier than building one out
of copper, plywood, glass and paint.  With solar panels costing only 25
cents per watt (on a good deal) then the investment in 4 panels (800W) is
about $275 and totally maintenance free.  Where as cobbling together one
will only work in the summer, or if you want to use antifreeze, then you
have to add pumps and heat exchangers, etc.  And will it work 20 years
without any attention?

But you are right.  You can triple the efficiency with a modern heatpump
water heater, BUT then it wont run on DC, so then you have to have 4 times
more panels and then do the grid-tie-only-when-running trick, and it simply
is not worth it.  Better to just bight the bullet and be grid tied.

Oh, I assume you have seen the articles that thermal solar hot water heating
was dead in 2008 and now is considered dead-dead-dead.  It is more efficient
and economical to do grid-tie solar and a heatpump water heater.  Because
since 2005, price of PV panels has dropped ten to one and heatpump water
heater is 3 times more efficient.  (combined, then is 30 times more cost
effective than it used to be.  Plus, the biggie, is that for every drop of
hot water you do not use, then you still get full 100% retail value for your
solar energy.  Whereas with thermal solar, unless you use 100% of  your hot
water every single day, then your thermal panels are doing nothing once the
tank is hot.

Bob
-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Jan Steinman via EV
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and
waterheating)

> From: Robert Bruninga 
>
> … using about 4 Solar panels
> for the bottom coil in a water heater are a good  idea.  You need hot
> water every day, and so this gives you 100% effectiveness of these 4
> or so panels.

Seems like a horribly inefficient way of heating water!

Direct solar hot water is a much better use of resources and solar energy.
Someone who's handy can easily cobble one up out of copper tubing, plywood,
glass, and some flat-black spray paint.

Jan

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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)

[Jan Steinman via EV]

> From: Robert Bruninga 
> 
> … using about 4 Solar panels
> for the bottom coil in a water heater are a good  idea.  You need hot water
> every day, and so this gives you 100% effectiveness of these 4 or so
> panels.

Seems like a horribly inefficient way of heating water!

Direct solar hot water is a much better use of resources and solar energy. 
Someone who's handy can easily cobble one up out of copper tubing, plywood, 
glass, and some flat-black spray paint.

Jan

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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> >>> you can throw away all kinds of money at this problem, but nothing
> > >> canbeat
> > >>> being grid-tied and a net meter.  Just do it.  Do a small system at
> > >>> contractor prices... then add panels at your leisure and at 20% of
> the
> > >> cost.
> > >>>
> > >>> bob
> > >>> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 10:50 AM Peri Hartman via EV <
> > ev@lists.evdl.org>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Actually, I am proposing something simpler than a power wall - that
> > does
> > >>>> not feed back to the grid. Maybe that simplification doesn't reduce
> > the
> > >>>> cost of the battery system much, but it would reduce the legal paper
> > >>>> work down to a normal electrical permit.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Peri
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -- Original Message --
> > >>>> From: "Willie via EV" 
> > >>>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> > >>>> Cc: "Willie" 
> > >>>> Sent: 14-Jul-19 7:30:58 AM
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> On 7/14/19 9:06 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> > >>>>>> How hard would it be to build a battery system that normally
> > supplies
> > >>>> 100% of the domestic power but, when depleted, switches over to
> supply
> > >>>> domestic power from the grid ? Also, I think it would be safe
> > >> assumption,
> > >>>> or at least a reasonable simplification, to assume that the battery
> is
> > >>>> always sufficient for the load, except when depleted. The battery
> > would
> > >>>> always be charging from a solar array, never from the grid.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> It seems to me, a system like this would completely circumvent any
> > >>>> negative conditions imposed by power companies. Of course, once the
> > >> solar
> > >>>> panels fill the battery, excess production is lost.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You have described a PowerWall.  The battery is one or more units
> > that
> > >>>> will supply or charge 5kw and holds 13-14kwh.  If about 11kwh will
> > carry
> > >>>> you over night and if you don't use more than 5kw over night, a
> single
> > >>>> battery unit will serve you.  With good sun, day time self power use
> > >> can be
> > >>>> around 20kw, including car charging.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> In 5 or so months, I have bought less than 10kwh from my utility
> and
> > >> sold
> > >>>> them something like 10,000 kwh.  That is with one battery unit.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Cost installed was about $13k.  For smooth operation, I am highly
> > >>>> dependent on the utility to accept my excess power.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> ___
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[paul dove via EV]

That's good, all the inverters I have seen disconnect the solar panels when the 
grid goes down so you loose power from your own system to protect line workers. 
I never liked that configuration. 

The last time we had a 3 day power outage was in August in Alabama. It was hot 
and muggy and no hot water oh and the gas pumps were out so you couldn't 
buy gasoline because the had electric fuel pumps. Some of the stations got 
generators and were pumping gas after a day but not all.
 

On Monday, July 15, 2019, 8:40:54 AM CDT, Robert Bruninga via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 > a $250 generator won’t power your house. Maybe a few appliances.
>

Can do mine.  I need about 100W to power all the lights in the house that I
need (20 or so LED's)
I need about 250W to power the refrigerator (50% duty cycle)

A small generator can do that nicely!

I do not need anything else during grid down.  But then I have not used a
generator in years.  I just plug the house into the 2 kW available from My
Chevy Volt.  Or the 1 kW from the Prius.

Dont need no stinkin generator.
Oh, and while the sun is up, I have 16 kW of solar power...(DC, but the
Sunny Boy inverters now include 1.5kW of grid-down AC as well per
inverter)...

Bob, Wb4APR

>
> > On Jul 13, 2019, at 6:15 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > WHen you go grid-tie solar, nothing changes.  you do the same thing you
> did
> > before.  A $250 generator and a $15 can of  gas is far more cost
> effective
> > to produce a few dollars worth of power outage comapred to a $13,000
> > battery to produce $2 worth of power (a 14 hour outage)...  Bob
> >
> >> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 7:05 PM paul dove  wrote:
> >>
> >> One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is power outage. If the grid goes
> down
> >> with net metering so does you solar.
> >>
> >> You have to be off-grid to stay powered when the grid fails.
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>> On Jul 14, 2019, at 11:16 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> But why are you so determined to use batteies when the cost of grid
> power
> >>> is ditrt cheap.
> >>>
> >>> a 1kwh deep cycle lead acid battery might cost $100.  It will store 10
> >>> cents of electricity per day.
> >>> After one year it is SHOT.  that is $100/365 days or about 27 cents per
> >>> kWh.  So you are paying TRIPLE the cost of electricity just for a
> battery
> >>> compared to just getting it from the grid?  And this does not even
> >> mention
> >>> the cost of solar panels.  This is purely battery storage costs.
> >>>
> >>> Even if you find magic battteries that can do 1000 discharges before
> >>> replacement, that still is 10 cents per kWh storage cost and still does
> >> not
> >>> even count the cost of solar to get the energy inthe first place.
> >>>
> >>> AND, unless you do a full cycle of thebattery everyday, to use y our
> >>> incoming solar, then you are not fully using your array.investment.
> Sure
> >>> you can throw away all kinds of money at this problem, but nothing
> >> canbeat
> >>> being grid-tied and a net meter.  Just do it.  Do a small system at
> >>> contractor prices... then add panels at your leisure and at 20% of the
> >> cost.
> >>>
> >>> bob
> >>> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 10:50 AM Peri Hartman via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Actually, I am proposing something simpler than a power wall - that
> does
> >>>> not feed back to the grid. Maybe that simplification doesn't reduce
> the
> >>>> cost of the battery system much, but it would reduce the legal paper
> >>>> work down to a normal electrical permit.
> >>>>
> >>>> Peri
> >>>>
> >>>> -- Original Message --
> >>>> From: "Willie via EV" 
> >>>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> >>>> Cc: "Willie" 
> >>>> Sent: 14-Jul-19 7:30:58 AM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 7/14/19 9:06 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> >>>>>> How hard would it be to build a battery system that normally
> supplies
> >>>> 100% of the domestic power but, when depleted, switches over to supply
> >>>> domestic power from the grid ?

Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Willie via EV]

On 7/15/19 6:47 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:

It depends where you live. The house a used to live in was rural. Power went 
out several times a year. Once for 3 days after a tornado and another time for 
3 days after an ice storm. Probably not often enough to justify the expense but 
it is very inconvenient for the time it’s out. If I had the money then I would 
have had a backup.


There is the risk that the grid will become less reliable.  That is my 
justification for buying a PowerWall.


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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[paul dove via EV]

It depends where you live. The house a used to live in was rural. Power went 
out several times a year. Once for 3 days after a tornado and another time for 
3 days after an ice storm. Probably not often enough to justify the expense but 
it is very inconvenient for the time it’s out. If I had the money then I would 
have had a backup.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 14, 2019, at 9:15 PM, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:
> 
> I see maybe one long duration outage (half a day?) a year that requires
> tending to the refrigerator. It never lasts too long, minutes not days. Not
> enough to fund a generator. If you ever go camping it is easier than that.
> 
> Lots of generators get sold around here (hurricanes are intermittent
> visitors), but I think it is the human tendency to pay attention to the
> negative, and fearmongering by the vendors.
> 
> If I ever decide to get a gen set it will be a used one at a time when
> hurricanes seem not much trouble. So far (25 years) I have no seen any
> need. The joys of underground service, and mostly tree clear, easily
> repaired distribution.
> 
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail>
> Virus-free.
> www.avg.com
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail>
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> 
>> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 8:51 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is power outage. If the grid goes down
>> with net metering so does you solar.
>> 
>> You have to be off-grid to stay powered when the grid fails.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jul 14, 2019, at 11:16 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> But why are you so determined to use batteies when the cost of grid power
>>> is ditrt cheap.
>>> 
>>> a 1kwh deep cycle lead acid battery might cost $100.  It will store 10
>>> cents of electricity per day.
>>> After one year it is SHOT.  that is $100/365 days or about 27 cents per
>>> kWh.  So you are paying TRIPLE the cost of electricity just for a battery
>>> compared to just getting it from the grid?  And this does not even
>> mention
>>> the cost of solar panels.  This is purely battery storage costs.
>>> 
>>> Even if you find magic battteries that can do 1000 discharges before
>>> replacement, that still is 10 cents per kWh storage cost and still does
>> not
>>> even count the cost of solar to get the energy inthe first place.
>>> 
>>> AND, unless you do a full cycle of thebattery everyday, to use y our
>>> incoming solar, then you are not fully using your array.investment.  Sure
>>> you can throw away all kinds of money at this problem, but nothing
>> canbeat
>>> being grid-tied and a net meter.  Just do it.  Do a small system at
>>> contractor prices... then add panels at your leisure and at 20% of the
>> cost.
>>> 
>>> bob
>>> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 10:50 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Actually, I am proposing something simpler than a power wall - that does
>>>> not feed back to the grid. Maybe that simplification doesn't reduce the
>>>> cost of the battery system much, but it would reduce the legal paper
>>>> work down to a normal electrical permit.
>>>> 
>>>> Peri
>>>> 
>>>> -- Original Message --
>>>> From: "Willie via EV" 
>>>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>>>> Cc: "Willie" 
>>>> Sent: 14-Jul-19 7:30:58 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 7/14/19 9:06 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>>>>>> How hard would it be to build a battery system that normally supplies
>>>> 100% of the domestic power but, when depleted, switches over to supply
>>>> domestic power from the grid ? Also, I think it would be safe
>> assumption,
>>>> or at least a reasonable simplification, to assume that the battery is
>>>> always sufficient for the load, except when depleted. The battery would
>>>> always be charging from a solar array, never from the grid.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It seems to me, a system like this would completely circumvent any
>>>> negative conditions imposed by power companies. Of course, once the
>> solar
>>>> panels fill the battery, excess production is lost.
>&

Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> a $250 generator won’t power your house. Maybe a few appliances.
>

Can do mine.  I need about 100W to power all the lights in the house that I
need (20 or so LED's)
I need about 250W to power the refrigerator (50% duty cycle)

A small generator can do that nicely!

I do not need anything else during grid down.  But then I have not used a
generator in years.  I just plug the house into the 2 kW available from My
Chevy Volt.  Or the 1 kW from the Prius.

Dont need no stinkin generator.
Oh, and while the sun is up, I have 16 kW of solar power...(DC, but the
Sunny Boy inverters now include 1.5kW of grid-down AC as well per
inverter)...

Bob, Wb4APR

>
> > On Jul 13, 2019, at 6:15 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > WHen you go grid-tie solar, nothing changes.  you do the same thing you
> did
> > before.  A $250 generator and a $15 can of  gas is far more cost
> effective
> > to produce a few dollars worth of power outage comapred to a $13,000
> > battery to produce $2 worth of power (a 14 hour outage)...  Bob
> >
> >> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 7:05 PM paul dove  wrote:
> >>
> >> One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is power outage. If the grid goes
> down
> >> with net metering so does you solar.
> >>
> >> You have to be off-grid to stay powered when the grid fails.
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>> On Jul 14, 2019, at 11:16 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> But why are you so determined to use batteies when the cost of grid
> power
> >>> is ditrt cheap.
> >>>
> >>> a 1kwh deep cycle lead acid battery might cost $100.  It will store 10
> >>> cents of electricity per day.
> >>> After one year it is SHOT.  that is $100/365 days or about 27 cents per
> >>> kWh.  So you are paying TRIPLE the cost of electricity just for a
> battery
> >>> compared to just getting it from the grid?  And this does not even
> >> mention
> >>> the cost of solar panels.  This is purely battery storage costs.
> >>>
> >>> Even if you find magic battteries that can do 1000 discharges before
> >>> replacement, that still is 10 cents per kWh storage cost and still does
> >> not
> >>> even count the cost of solar to get the energy inthe first place.
> >>>
> >>> AND, unless you do a full cycle of thebattery everyday, to use y our
> >>> incoming solar, then you are not fully using your array.investment.
> Sure
> >>> you can throw away all kinds of money at this problem, but nothing
> >> canbeat
> >>> being grid-tied and a net meter.  Just do it.  Do a small system at
> >>> contractor prices... then add panels at your leisure and at 20% of the
> >> cost.
> >>>
> >>> bob
> >>> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 10:50 AM Peri Hartman via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Actually, I am proposing something simpler than a power wall - that
> does
> >>>> not feed back to the grid. Maybe that simplification doesn't reduce
> the
> >>>> cost of the battery system much, but it would reduce the legal paper
> >>>> work down to a normal electrical permit.
> >>>>
> >>>> Peri
> >>>>
> >>>> -- Original Message --
> >>>> From: "Willie via EV" 
> >>>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> >>>> Cc: "Willie" 
> >>>> Sent: 14-Jul-19 7:30:58 AM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 7/14/19 9:06 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> >>>>>> How hard would it be to build a battery system that normally
> supplies
> >>>> 100% of the domestic power but, when depleted, switches over to supply
> >>>> domestic power from the grid ? Also, I think it would be safe
> >> assumption,
> >>>> or at least a reasonable simplification, to assume that the battery is
> >>>> always sufficient for the load, except when depleted. The battery
> would
> >>>> always be charging from a solar array, never from the grid.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It seems to me, a system like this would completely circumvent any
> >>>> negative conditions imposed by power companies. Of course, once the
> >> solar
> >

Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Mark Grasser via EV]

Nicely said David,
Mark Grasser

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
via EV
Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2019 2:17 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

On 14 Jul 2019 at 12:16, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

> But why are you so determined to use batteies when the cost of grid power
is
> ditrt cheap.

I'm not the one you're addressing here, but since this concerns me too, I'll

reply that unless the politics changes radically -- which seems unlikely -- 
I see a dim future for net metering here in the US.  If I built a grid 
intertie system this year, I wouldn't have much confidence that it would 
still be economically viable, or even legal, for its entire practical 
lifetime.  

On the other hand, an offgrid system means I don't really care (personally) 
what the laws and the electric utilities do. I'm making my own energy.  I 
owe Ohio Edison nothing for it.  What they do to try to inhibit that is much

less likely to slow me down.

Yes, offgrid costs more.  Freedom often does.  That's its nature.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Michael Ross via EV]

Duke is not going to stop residential power generation, just discourage it.
it would be a PR nightmare for them here.

The cost of power is quite low at $0.11 per kWh. They do have a base
connection service cost that I pay even if I break even on the give and
take, it is about 200kWh x $0.11 =  $22 a month.

Duke is completely sold on solar power, what's not to like? But only if it
is under their thumb. Various businesses build, operate and maintain these
solar plantations, not only Duke itself. Lot's of jobs there, and thus the
legislature goes along with whatever Duke says.

There is far less worry with a solar power plant than a coal or nuclear
one, though they won't say it out loud.


Virus-free.
www.avg.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 4:38 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 13 Jul 2019 at 12:39, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:
>
> > Virtually ~all~ utility companies require a customer who plans to
> > produce power and introduce it to their grid to have complied with
> > stringent regulations ... you will almost certainly be *charged* for
> > any excess power that you push back into the grid, rather than
> > credited for it
>
> Thanks for making that point.  I'm surprised at how the PV world continues
> to treat grid intertie as some kind of holy grail, even as the power
> companies take every opportunity to make it more difficult and expensive.
>
> At least in most parts of the US, and even in some places in Europe, the
> grid is NOT a gigantic free battery.  You PAY to use it.  And what you pay
> is not likely to decrease; quite to the contrary.
>
> We're going back to the way intertie started off decades ago.  The
> utilities
> imposed impossible technical and insurance requirements on net metering,
> which led PV hobbyists to start the Guerrilla Solar movement --
> essentially
> doing grid intertie on the sly.
>
> Then various states and localities, and some European nations, passed laws
> supporting net metering.  That's when intertie started to take off.  But
> more recently, the utilites have been buying politicians and getting the
> net
> metering laws reversed.  Guess what -- Guerrilla Solar is back.  Not that
> I'd ever do such a thing, mind you.
>
> I don't think the power companies are going to stop pushing back until
> they've effectively killed grid intertie.
>
> If I were building a PV system in the US today, I'd probably make it 100%
> off grid.  I'd feed a subpanel with it, and as I was able to expand the
> system over a period of years, I'd gradually transfer loads from utility
> power to home power.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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>
>
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>
>

-- 
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(919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Michael Ross via EV]

I see maybe one long duration outage (half a day?) a year that requires
tending to the refrigerator. It never lasts too long, minutes not days. Not
enough to fund a generator. If you ever go camping it is easier than that.

Lots of generators get sold around here (hurricanes are intermittent
visitors), but I think it is the human tendency to pay attention to the
negative, and fearmongering by the vendors.

If I ever decide to get a gen set it will be a used one at a time when
hurricanes seem not much trouble. So far (25 years) I have no seen any
need. The joys of underground service, and mostly tree clear, easily
repaired distribution.

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On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 8:51 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:

> One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is power outage. If the grid goes down
> with net metering so does you solar.
>
> You have to be off-grid to stay powered when the grid fails.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jul 14, 2019, at 11:16 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > But why are you so determined to use batteies when the cost of grid power
> > is ditrt cheap.
> >
> > a 1kwh deep cycle lead acid battery might cost $100.  It will store 10
> > cents of electricity per day.
> > After one year it is SHOT.  that is $100/365 days or about 27 cents per
> > kWh.  So you are paying TRIPLE the cost of electricity just for a battery
> > compared to just getting it from the grid?  And this does not even
> mention
> > the cost of solar panels.  This is purely battery storage costs.
> >
> > Even if you find magic battteries that can do 1000 discharges before
> > replacement, that still is 10 cents per kWh storage cost and still does
> not
> > even count the cost of solar to get the energy inthe first place.
> >
> > AND, unless you do a full cycle of thebattery everyday, to use y our
> > incoming solar, then you are not fully using your array.investment.  Sure
> > you can throw away all kinds of money at this problem, but nothing
> canbeat
> > being grid-tied and a net meter.  Just do it.  Do a small system at
> > contractor prices... then add panels at your leisure and at 20% of the
> cost.
> >
> > bob
> > On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 10:50 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Actually, I am proposing something simpler than a power wall - that does
> >> not feed back to the grid. Maybe that simplification doesn't reduce the
> >> cost of the battery system much, but it would reduce the legal paper
> >> work down to a normal electrical permit.
> >>
> >> Peri
> >>
> >> -- Original Message --
> >> From: "Willie via EV" 
> >> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> >> Cc: "Willie" 
> >> Sent: 14-Jul-19 7:30:58 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On 7/14/19 9:06 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> >>>> How hard would it be to build a battery system that normally supplies
> >> 100% of the domestic power but, when depleted, switches over to supply
> >> domestic power from the grid ? Also, I think it would be safe
> assumption,
> >> or at least a reasonable simplification, to assume that the battery is
> >> always sufficient for the load, except when depleted. The battery would
> >> always be charging from a solar array, never from the grid.
> >>>>
> >>>> It seems to me, a system like this would completely circumvent any
> >> negative conditions imposed by power companies. Of course, once the
> solar
> >> panels fill the battery, excess production is lost.
> >>>
> >>> You have described a PowerWall.  The battery is one or more units that
> >> will supply or charge 5kw and holds 13-14kwh.  If about 11kwh will carry
> >> you over night and if you don't use more than 5kw over night, a single
> >> battery unit will serve you.  With good sun, day time self power use
> can be
> >> around 20kw, including car charging.
> >>>
> >>> In 5 or so months, I have bought less than 10kwh from my utility and
> sold
> >> them something like 10,000 kwh.  That is with one battery unit.
> >>>
> >>> Cost installed was about $13k.  For smooth operation, I am highly
> >> dependent on the utility to accept m

Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[paul dove via EV]

a $250 generator won’t power your house. Maybe a few appliances.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 13, 2019, at 6:15 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:
> 
> WHen you go grid-tie solar, nothing changes.  you do the same thing you did
> before.  A $250 generator and a $15 can of  gas is far more cost effective
> to produce a few dollars worth of power outage comapred to a $13,000
> battery to produce $2 worth of power (a 14 hour outage)...  Bob
> 
>> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 7:05 PM paul dove  wrote:
>> 
>> One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is power outage. If the grid goes down
>> with net metering so does you solar.
>> 
>> You have to be off-grid to stay powered when the grid fails.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jul 14, 2019, at 11:16 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> But why are you so determined to use batteies when the cost of grid power
>>> is ditrt cheap.
>>> 
>>> a 1kwh deep cycle lead acid battery might cost $100.  It will store 10
>>> cents of electricity per day.
>>> After one year it is SHOT.  that is $100/365 days or about 27 cents per
>>> kWh.  So you are paying TRIPLE the cost of electricity just for a battery
>>> compared to just getting it from the grid?  And this does not even
>> mention
>>> the cost of solar panels.  This is purely battery storage costs.
>>> 
>>> Even if you find magic battteries that can do 1000 discharges before
>>> replacement, that still is 10 cents per kWh storage cost and still does
>> not
>>> even count the cost of solar to get the energy inthe first place.
>>> 
>>> AND, unless you do a full cycle of thebattery everyday, to use y our
>>> incoming solar, then you are not fully using your array.investment.  Sure
>>> you can throw away all kinds of money at this problem, but nothing
>> canbeat
>>> being grid-tied and a net meter.  Just do it.  Do a small system at
>>> contractor prices... then add panels at your leisure and at 20% of the
>> cost.
>>> 
>>> bob
>>> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 10:50 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Actually, I am proposing something simpler than a power wall - that does
>>>> not feed back to the grid. Maybe that simplification doesn't reduce the
>>>> cost of the battery system much, but it would reduce the legal paper
>>>> work down to a normal electrical permit.
>>>> 
>>>> Peri
>>>> 
>>>> -- Original Message --
>>>> From: "Willie via EV" 
>>>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>>>> Cc: "Willie" 
>>>> Sent: 14-Jul-19 7:30:58 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 7/14/19 9:06 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>>>>>> How hard would it be to build a battery system that normally supplies
>>>> 100% of the domestic power but, when depleted, switches over to supply
>>>> domestic power from the grid ? Also, I think it would be safe
>> assumption,
>>>> or at least a reasonable simplification, to assume that the battery is
>>>> always sufficient for the load, except when depleted. The battery would
>>>> always be charging from a solar array, never from the grid.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It seems to me, a system like this would completely circumvent any
>>>> negative conditions imposed by power companies. Of course, once the
>> solar
>>>> panels fill the battery, excess production is lost.
>>>>> 
>>>>> You have described a PowerWall.  The battery is one or more units that
>>>> will supply or charge 5kw and holds 13-14kwh.  If about 11kwh will carry
>>>> you over night and if you don't use more than 5kw over night, a single
>>>> battery unit will serve you.  With good sun, day time self power use
>> can be
>>>> around 20kw, including car charging.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In 5 or so months, I have bought less than 10kwh from my utility and
>> sold
>>>> them something like 10,000 kwh.  That is with one battery unit.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cost installed was about $13k.  For smooth operation, I am highly
>>>> dependent on the utility to accept my excess power.
>>>>> 
>>>>> ___
>>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.

Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[paul dove via EV]

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is power outage. If the grid goes down with 
net metering so does you solar. 

You have to be off-grid to stay powered when the grid fails.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 14, 2019, at 11:16 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> But why are you so determined to use batteies when the cost of grid power
> is ditrt cheap.
> 
> a 1kwh deep cycle lead acid battery might cost $100.  It will store 10
> cents of electricity per day.
> After one year it is SHOT.  that is $100/365 days or about 27 cents per
> kWh.  So you are paying TRIPLE the cost of electricity just for a battery
> compared to just getting it from the grid?  And this does not even mention
> the cost of solar panels.  This is purely battery storage costs.
> 
> Even if you find magic battteries that can do 1000 discharges before
> replacement, that still is 10 cents per kWh storage cost and still does not
> even count the cost of solar to get the energy inthe first place.
> 
> AND, unless you do a full cycle of thebattery everyday, to use y our
> incoming solar, then you are not fully using your array.investment.  Sure
> you can throw away all kinds of money at this problem, but nothing canbeat
> being grid-tied and a net meter.  Just do it.  Do a small system at
> contractor prices... then add panels at your leisure and at 20% of the cost.
> 
> bob
> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 10:50 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
> 
>> Actually, I am proposing something simpler than a power wall - that does
>> not feed back to the grid. Maybe that simplification doesn't reduce the
>> cost of the battery system much, but it would reduce the legal paper
>> work down to a normal electrical permit.
>> 
>> Peri
>> 
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Willie via EV" 
>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>> Cc: "Willie" 
>> Sent: 14-Jul-19 7:30:58 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 7/14/19 9:06 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>>>> How hard would it be to build a battery system that normally supplies
>> 100% of the domestic power but, when depleted, switches over to supply
>> domestic power from the grid ? Also, I think it would be safe assumption,
>> or at least a reasonable simplification, to assume that the battery is
>> always sufficient for the load, except when depleted. The battery would
>> always be charging from a solar array, never from the grid.
>>>> 
>>>> It seems to me, a system like this would completely circumvent any
>> negative conditions imposed by power companies. Of course, once the solar
>> panels fill the battery, excess production is lost.
>>> 
>>> You have described a PowerWall.  The battery is one or more units that
>> will supply or charge 5kw and holds 13-14kwh.  If about 11kwh will carry
>> you over night and if you don't use more than 5kw over night, a single
>> battery unit will serve you.  With good sun, day time self power use can be
>> around 20kw, including car charging.
>>> 
>>> In 5 or so months, I have bought less than 10kwh from my utility and sold
>> them something like 10,000 kwh.  That is with one battery unit.
>>> 
>>> Cost installed was about $13k.  For smooth operation, I am highly
>> dependent on the utility to accept my excess power.
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>> 
>> 
>> ___
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>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>> 
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[moskowitz via EV]

We do pretty much what Bob says. 

We have a 9.6 kW solar array which is grid-intertied. We have time-of-day 
metering and are pretty much net-zero, even with charging our Chevy Volt. (Our 
home is Passive House-certified and all-electric.)

We also keep 6 to 8 100-Amp old batteries on trickle charge, and as many 300 
Watt pure-sine wave inverters. In the event of a blackout, the battery/inverter 
pairs get spread out around the house. That keeps us lit up for up to a 12-hour 
blackout. For more extended blackouts we have a quiet 3500W pure-sine wave 
gasoline-fueled generator. We usually keep enough fuel on hand for a couple of 
days.

It's a lot less expensive that a PowerWall or other similar alternatives.


Len Moskowitz

-

> Robert Bruninga wrote:
>  ...A $250 generator and a $15 can of  gas is far more cost effective
> to produce a few dollars worth of power outage comapred to a $13,000
> battery to produce $2 worth of power (a 14 hour outage)...  Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Tom Mandera via EV]

I think it is about shifting the consumption (like a DVR shifts Prime Time TV)

If instead of net-metering being 1:1 you have a sell at $.05 and a buy at $.10 
then the 10kwh scenario is a net loss of $.50 not "net zero"

If you have such a scenario, the battery can be used to shift your 
"consumption" of energy so it comes more from your own production and less from 
the grid.

You still have the grid when you need it, and you can still dump excess power, 
but  you manage your own loads so anything that would need to consume "peak 
power" does so from the battery first.

In some locales your net-metering may be close to non-existent - they don't pay 
for ANY backfeed.  If your solar offsets your consumption at a point in time, 
great, but you get zero credit for any overproduction at any point in time.

All good reasons to shift with a battery locally to work around artificial 
external limitations placed upon you without going off-grid with the 
over-provisioning that is required.

Think of it as a surge or pressure tank on your well.  It doesn't replace the 
well pump, but stores water (and pressure) for a period of time to reduce the 
wear and tear on the pump.  We drag out the time period of use from the last 
pump run - but we still need the pump to kick back on after a few flushes..

Sent from my Verizon Motorola Smartphone
On Jul 14, 2019 10:28 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:
>

>
> So that is what net metering is all about.  So... What value then is the
> battery?  It adds nothing to that equation other than a fixed $13,000 up
> front loss that can never be receoverd.?  What am I missing?
>


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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

WHen you go grid-tie solar, nothing changes.  you do the same thing you did
before.  A $250 generator and a $15 can of  gas is far more cost effective
to produce a few dollars worth of power outage comapred to a $13,000
battery to produce $2 worth of power (a 14 hour outage)...  Bob

On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 7:05 PM paul dove  wrote:

> One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is power outage. If the grid goes down
> with net metering so does you solar.
>
> You have to be off-grid to stay powered when the grid fails.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jul 14, 2019, at 11:16 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > But why are you so determined to use batteies when the cost of grid power
> > is ditrt cheap.
> >
> > a 1kwh deep cycle lead acid battery might cost $100.  It will store 10
> > cents of electricity per day.
> > After one year it is SHOT.  that is $100/365 days or about 27 cents per
> > kWh.  So you are paying TRIPLE the cost of electricity just for a battery
> > compared to just getting it from the grid?  And this does not even
> mention
> > the cost of solar panels.  This is purely battery storage costs.
> >
> > Even if you find magic battteries that can do 1000 discharges before
> > replacement, that still is 10 cents per kWh storage cost and still does
> not
> > even count the cost of solar to get the energy inthe first place.
> >
> > AND, unless you do a full cycle of thebattery everyday, to use y our
> > incoming solar, then you are not fully using your array.investment.  Sure
> > you can throw away all kinds of money at this problem, but nothing
> canbeat
> > being grid-tied and a net meter.  Just do it.  Do a small system at
> > contractor prices... then add panels at your leisure and at 20% of the
> cost.
> >
> > bob
> > On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 10:50 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Actually, I am proposing something simpler than a power wall - that does
> >> not feed back to the grid. Maybe that simplification doesn't reduce the
> >> cost of the battery system much, but it would reduce the legal paper
> >> work down to a normal electrical permit.
> >>
> >> Peri
> >>
> >> -- Original Message --
> >> From: "Willie via EV" 
> >> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> >> Cc: "Willie" 
> >> Sent: 14-Jul-19 7:30:58 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On 7/14/19 9:06 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> >>>> How hard would it be to build a battery system that normally supplies
> >> 100% of the domestic power but, when depleted, switches over to supply
> >> domestic power from the grid ? Also, I think it would be safe
> assumption,
> >> or at least a reasonable simplification, to assume that the battery is
> >> always sufficient for the load, except when depleted. The battery would
> >> always be charging from a solar array, never from the grid.
> >>>>
> >>>> It seems to me, a system like this would completely circumvent any
> >> negative conditions imposed by power companies. Of course, once the
> solar
> >> panels fill the battery, excess production is lost.
> >>>
> >>> You have described a PowerWall.  The battery is one or more units that
> >> will supply or charge 5kw and holds 13-14kwh.  If about 11kwh will carry
> >> you over night and if you don't use more than 5kw over night, a single
> >> battery unit will serve you.  With good sun, day time self power use
> can be
> >> around 20kw, including car charging.
> >>>
> >>> In 5 or so months, I have bought less than 10kwh from my utility and
> sold
> >> them something like 10,000 kwh.  That is with one battery unit.
> >>>
> >>> Cost installed was about $13k.  For smooth operation, I am highly
> >> dependent on the utility to accept my excess power.
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> >>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >>>
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> >> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> >> http://groups.y

Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Can you explain?

On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 6:43 PM Bobby Keeland via EV 
wrote:

> In southern Louisiana where we live the peak time is simple, 24 hours. We
> have net metering, but what they exchange with us for the electricity that
> they get from us is very small.


Then it is not net metering.  Net metering means you push kwH in and you
draw kWh out.  You pay if you draw more out then you put in, but you get to
keep the kWh credit if you put morein than  you use.  Only at the end of a
year if you generated more all year than you used all year, then they may
"pay" you.  but if that is the case, then you got all your electricity for
free from your own solar,

Or do they use "dual metering"? or do they square up every month, or
annualy.  We need more speciics to understand what you are saying.  Bob.


> The reason that we are adding more solar
> modules and adding batteries is so that ALL of the electricity that we us
> is renewable. The local utilities get it from coal, nuclear, natural gas
> (perhaps from fracking), solar and wind. The solar and wind components are
> not nearly large enough. In the best way that we can we are fighting
> pollution and global warming. Our car is a BEV, not a hybrid.
> BobK
>
> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 5:16 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
>
> > Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> > > But why are you so determined to use batteries when the cost of grid
> > power
> > > is dirt cheap.
> >
> > It all depends on where you live. Some states have net metering; some
> > don't.
> > Some even set up roadblocks, or utilities you a big penalty if you dare
> to
> > generate your own power.
> >
> > --
> > In software development, there are two kinds of error: Conceptual
> > errors, implementation errors, and off-by-one errors. (anonymous)
> > --
> > Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> > ___
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Bobby Keeland via EV]

In southern Louisiana where we live the peak time is simple, 24 hours. We
have net metering, but what they exchange with us for the electricity that
they get from us is very small. The reason that we are adding more solar
modules and adding batteries is so that ALL of the electricity that we us
is renewable. The local utilities get it from coal, nuclear, natural gas
(perhaps from fracking), solar and wind. The solar and wind components are
not nearly large enough. In the best way that we can we are fighting
pollution and global warming. Our car is a BEV, not a hybrid.
BobK

On Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 5:16 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> > But why are you so determined to use batteries when the cost of grid
> power
> > is dirt cheap.
>
> It all depends on where you live. Some states have net metering; some
> don't.
> Some even set up roadblocks, or utilities you a big penalty if you dare to
> generate your own power.
>
> --
> In software development, there are two kinds of error: Conceptual
> errors, implementation errors, and off-by-one errors. (anonymous)
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> ___
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Peri Hartman via EV]

That was exactly my point, and I thought I said so. It may be that the 
battery isn't worth the cost. Maybe it's better to just install panels 
and lose the excess energy produced if your electric company makes it 
too hard or too expensive to give back to the grid.


Why would anyone want to do this when grid power is so cheap ? Some 
places are charging $0.30 / kWh or more. That isn't so cheap. Further, 
your power may be sourced from coal or nuclear and maybe you would 
prefer to find a cleaner source.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Lee Hart" 
Sent: 14-Jul-19 6:20:40 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)


Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

But why are you so determined to use batteries when the cost of grid power
is dirt cheap.


It all depends on where you live. Some states have net metering; some don't. 
Some even set up roadblocks, or utilities you a big penalty if you dare to 
generate your own power.

-- In software development, there are two kinds of error: Conceptual
errors, implementation errors, and off-by-one errors. (anonymous)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Lee Hart via EV]

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

But why are you so determined to use batteries when the cost of grid power
is dirt cheap.


It all depends on where you live. Some states have net metering; some don't. 
Some even set up roadblocks, or utilities you a big penalty if you dare to 
generate your own power.


--
In software development, there are two kinds of error: Conceptual
errors, implementation errors, and off-by-one errors. (anonymous)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Lee Hart via EV]

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

I don't think the power companies are going to stop pushing back until
they've effectively killed grid intertie.


No, they're not going to kill it. They want to *control* it; to monopolize it 
and profit from it.


It seems like their model is to promote large wind and PV "farms" that they own 
or control. These "farms" will be treated like any other power plant. The 
utilities get all their power (at whatever price the utility wants to pay). The 
utilities then resell that power (for a profit) to their customers.


--
In software development, there are two kinds of error: Conceptual
errors, implementation errors, and off-by-one errors. (anonymous)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Jim Walls via EV]

On 07/14/2019 10:41, Willie via EV wrote:
I would be buying about 10kwh per night and paying about $.10/kwh.  
Then, during the day, selling back at about $.06/kwh. 


That sucks (the buy vs sell cost ratio).  When I installed solar last 
year, I got switched to a Time Of Use account (did not have a choice).  
During the week in summer (June through September), there are three rates.

Peak is 2:00 PM until 8:00 PM, @ 54 cents / KWH
Off Peak is 8:00 AM until 2:00 PM and 8:00 PM until 10:00 PM, @ 30 cents 
/ KWH

Super Off Peak is 10:00 PM until 8:00 AM @ 13 cents / KWH
Those rates apply regardless of direction of power.  In other words, I 
sell power for the same rate that I buy it.  There is a baseline credit 
that lowers that some, so it's not quite that high, but we do have some 
of the highest electric rates in the country.  On the weekends and 
holidays, there is no Peak rate.  And the Peak and Off Peak numbers go 
down quite a bit in winter.  My solar of course does not generate 
anything during most of the Super Off Peak, but is generating during all 
of the morning Off Peak and about half of my Peak load.  If I cut down 
the tree in the back yard, my late afternoon generation would go way 
up.  My last bill from So. Cal. Edison covered 5/30/19 through 6/28/19 
and I consumed 7 KWH of Peak rate, I sold 72 KWH at Off Peak rate, and 
consumed 652 KWH at Super Off Peak rate.  For the month of June, my 
solar produced 1,175 KWH. That is fairly typical.  Peak rate is very 
close to zero, I sell a bunch at Off Peak, and buy lots at Super Off 
Peak.  So in my case, if I were to use battery to load shift, I would be 
buying power to charge the battery at Super Off Peak and using or 
selling it at Peak Rate - about four times the rate.  If I ever get an 
electric car, it will ONLY charge during Super Off Peak rates.  Note, 
even with that cost advantage, it's likely not worth storing power in 
batteries for load shifting.  With that said, it would be nice to be 
able to use my solar in a commercial power outage - not that we have 
that happen very often.


In case someone is thinking that I use a lot of electricity, you're 
right.  My average daily total consumption is 50 to 65 KWH per day. A 
lot of that is the heaters for five large aquariums and a half dozen 
reptiles.  I figure my load will go down around 25 KWH per day when my 
older son moves out - and takes his pets with him.


--
73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org
Ofc:  818-548-4804
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395

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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Michael Ross via EV]

Thank you Bob. That was very succinct.

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On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 10:22 AM Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> That is why batteries TRIPLE the cost compared to a grid system and also
> require summer/winter life style changes:
> 1) As you say, when the batteries are full, all your solar investment is
> doing *nothing*
> 2) In order to have power on cloudy days, you have to oversize the
> batteries 3 to 5 times a day's capacity
> 3) Combine #1 and #2 and your solar is spending 1/3rd of most days doing
> *nothing*
> 4) You cannot store in batteries the 2X more energy you get in the summer
> for use later in the winter
> 5) So, you either throw away half of your solar production in the summer
> and live a tolerable winter life style
> 6) Or you invest for your summer lifestyle and then just survive the winter
> with half power.
>
> Battery storage when you have the grid (net meter)  is simply not
> economically practical in any way whatsoever.
> (Unless you get free batteries and are willling to maintain them for the
> rest of your life)...
>
> Bob
> Author http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 10:06 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > How hard would it be to build a battery system that normally supplies
> > 100% of the domestic power but, when depleted, switches over to supply
> > domestic power from the grid ? Also, I think it would be safe
> > assumption, or at least a reasonable simplification, to assume that the
> > battery is always sufficient for the load, except when depleted. The
> > battery would always be charging from a solar array, never from the
> > grid.
> >
> > It seems to me, a system like this would completely circumvent any
> > negative conditions imposed by power companies. Of course, once the
> > solar panels fill the battery, excess production is lost.
> >
> > Peri
> >
> > ------ Original Message --
> > From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> > Cc: "Robert Bruninga" 
> > Sent: 14-Jul-19 4:54:09 AM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)
> >
> > >For what it is worth... For off grid or backup power,.I have some 500W
> and
> > >2500W 120 VAC to 240VAC transformers.  Great for stepping up a single
> > phase
> > >120v generator to 240 VAC for a well pump or other emergency power
> needs.
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://baltimore.craigslist.org/ele/d/glen-burnie-v-transformers/6928546512.html
> > >
> > >$30. Baltimore area.  Will not ship.
> > >
> > >On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 12:40 AM Michael Ross via EV  >
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > >>  I get all that because I have panels and a net metering plan with
> Duke
> > >>  Power. As I said it depends on whether your utility supports what you
> > want
> > >>  to do. Clearly, YMMV.
> > >>
> > >>  I personally could do exactly as I described.  If I had an EV that
> > needed
> > >>  charging regularly, I could put up a ground based array of
> > microinverter
> > >>  120VAC output arrays, and add to them pretty much at will. If I over
> > >>  produced then Duke would bank it. In the billing month that contains
> > May 31
> > >>  they would zero out any bank I had developed. I could live with that.
> > >>
> > >>  <
> > >>
> >
> http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail
> > >>  >
> > >>  Virus-free.
> > >>  www.avg.com
> > >>  <
> > >>
> >
> http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail
> > >>  >
> > >>  <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> > >>
> > >>  On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 7:06 PM Mr. Sharkey via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> > >>  wrote:
> > >>
> > >>  >  >>We're going back to the way intertie started off decades ago.
> The
> > >>  > utilities
> > >>  > imposed impossible technical and insurance requirements on net
> > metering,
> > >>  > which led PV hobbyists to start the Guerrilla Solar movement -

Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

 > So, the net benefit of the battery in my situation
> is probably less than $1/day.

But it is not needed at all since you are grid tied.  And buying and
selling power is the function of the net meter and has nothing to do with
the battery.   I still do not see any value to the battery in that
process.  (other than backup).  Yes, you are selling the utility about $1
per day of solar, and buying it back a s you need it at night, but that is
to and from the grid via the net meter.  The battery does not have anything
to do with it and is not needed as you say when the grid is up and absrbing
your excess solar energy.  Its only value is backup.

Bob

On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 1:41 PM Willie via EV  wrote:

>
>
> On 7/14/19 11:28 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> > What you described seems to be  a net-metered system.  You are buying and
> > selling power to the grid.  You produced say 10,000 kWh and you bought
> > 10,000 kWh.  For a NET energy payment to the utility of zero.  The goal
> of
> > any home solar system.
>
> I guess we have a clear writing problem on my end.  Or, maybe a
> comprehension problem on yours.  Or, maybe some of both.
>
> I tried to say that I am buying almost no energy from my utility and I
> am selling them quite a lot.  The overhead or connection fee is about
> $25/month so, at $.06/kwh which is my selling price, I have to give them
>   about 600 kwh per month to reach a zero bill.  Right now, my monthly
> net bill is a credit of about $100/month.  I'm hoping to eventually get
> that up to several hundred dollars per month.
> >
> > So that is what net metering is all about.  So... What value then is the
> > battery?  It adds nothing to that equation other than a fixed $13,000 up
> > front loss that can never be receoverd.?  What am I missing?
>
> The battery is of minor value while the grid is up.  Without the
> battery, I would be buying about 10kwh per night and paying about
> $.10/kwh.  Then, during the day, selling back at about $.06/kwh.  So,
> the net benefit of the battery in my situation is probably less than
> $1/day.  Certainly less than $2. It WOULD take me far longer than the
> life of the battery paying for it at less than $1/day.
>
> Since the utility is willing to pay cash for over production, I may well
> have an unusually good deal.
>
> I bought the PowerWall primarily for grid down security but find it
> useful for a little day/night savings.
>
> > You have described a PowerWall.  The battery is one or more units that
> >> will supply or charge 5kw and holds 13-14kwh.  If about 11kwh will carry
> >> you over night and if you don't use more than 5kw over night, a single
> >> battery unit will serve you.  With good sun, day time self power use can
> >> be around 20kw, including car charging.
> >>
> >> In 5 or so months, I have bought less than 10kwh from my utility and
> >> sold them something like 10,000 kwh.  That is with one battery unit.
> >>
> >> Cost installed was about $13k.  For smooth operation, I am highly
> >> dependent on the utility to accept my excess power.
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 14 Jul 2019 at 12:16, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

> But why are you so determined to use batteies when the cost of grid power is
> ditrt cheap.

I'm not the one you're addressing here, but since this concerns me too, I'll 
reply that unless the politics changes radically -- which seems unlikely -- 
I see a dim future for net metering here in the US.  If I built a grid 
intertie system this year, I wouldn't have much confidence that it would 
still be economically viable, or even legal, for its entire practical 
lifetime.  

On the other hand, an offgrid system means I don't really care (personally) 
what the laws and the electric utilities do. I'm making my own energy.  I 
owe Ohio Edison nothing for it.  What they do to try to inhibit that is much 
less likely to slow me down.

Yes, offgrid costs more.  Freedom often does.  That's its nature.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Willie via EV]

On 7/14/19 11:28 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

What you described seems to be  a net-metered system.  You are buying and
selling power to the grid.  You produced say 10,000 kWh and you bought
10,000 kWh.  For a NET energy payment to the utility of zero.  The goal of
any home solar system.


I guess we have a clear writing problem on my end.  Or, maybe a 
comprehension problem on yours.  Or, maybe some of both.


I tried to say that I am buying almost no energy from my utility and I 
am selling them quite a lot.  The overhead or connection fee is about 
$25/month so, at $.06/kwh which is my selling price, I have to give them 
 about 600 kwh per month to reach a zero bill.  Right now, my monthly 
net bill is a credit of about $100/month.  I'm hoping to eventually get 
that up to several hundred dollars per month.


So that is what net metering is all about.  So... What value then is the
battery?  It adds nothing to that equation other than a fixed $13,000 up
front loss that can never be receoverd.?  What am I missing?


The battery is of minor value while the grid is up.  Without the 
battery, I would be buying about 10kwh per night and paying about 
$.10/kwh.  Then, during the day, selling back at about $.06/kwh.  So, 
the net benefit of the battery in my situation is probably less than 
$1/day.  Certainly less than $2. It WOULD take me far longer than the 
life of the battery paying for it at less than $1/day.


Since the utility is willing to pay cash for over production, I may well 
have an unusually good deal.


I bought the PowerWall primarily for grid down security but find it 
useful for a little day/night savings.



You have described a PowerWall.  The battery is one or more units that

will supply or charge 5kw and holds 13-14kwh.  If about 11kwh will carry
you over night and if you don't use more than 5kw over night, a single
battery unit will serve you.  With good sun, day time self power use can
be around 20kw, including car charging.

In 5 or so months, I have bought less than 10kwh from my utility and
sold them something like 10,000 kwh.  That is with one battery unit.

Cost installed was about $13k.  For smooth operation, I am highly
dependent on the utility to accept my excess power.

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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

What you described seems to be  a net-metered system.  You are buying and
selling power to the grid.  You produced say 10,000 kWh and you bought
10,000 kWh.  For a NET energy payment to the utility of zero.  The goal of
any home solar system.

So that is what net metering is all about.  So... What value then is the
battery?  It adds nothing to that equation other than a fixed $13,000 up
front loss that can never be receoverd.?  What am I missing?

You have described a PowerWall.  The battery is one or more units that
> will supply or charge 5kw and holds 13-14kwh.  If about 11kwh will carry
> you over night and if you don't use more than 5kw over night, a single
> battery unit will serve you.  With good sun, day time self power use can
> be around 20kw, including car charging.
>
> In 5 or so months, I have bought less than 10kwh from my utility and
> sold them something like 10,000 kwh.  That is with one battery unit.
>
> Cost installed was about $13k.  For smooth operation, I am highly
> dependent on the utility to accept my excess power.
>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

But why are you so determined to use batteies when the cost of grid power
is ditrt cheap.

a 1kwh deep cycle lead acid battery might cost $100.  It will store 10
cents of electricity per day.
After one year it is SHOT.  that is $100/365 days or about 27 cents per
kWh.  So you are paying TRIPLE the cost of electricity just for a battery
compared to just getting it from the grid?  And this does not even mention
the cost of solar panels.  This is purely battery storage costs.

Even if you find magic battteries that can do 1000 discharges before
replacement, that still is 10 cents per kWh storage cost and still does not
even count the cost of solar to get the energy inthe first place.

AND, unless you do a full cycle of thebattery everyday, to use y our
incoming solar, then you are not fully using your array.investment.  Sure
you can throw away all kinds of money at this problem, but nothing canbeat
being grid-tied and a net meter.  Just do it.  Do a small system at
contractor prices... then add panels at your leisure and at 20% of the cost.

bob
On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 10:50 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> Actually, I am proposing something simpler than a power wall - that does
> not feed back to the grid. Maybe that simplification doesn't reduce the
> cost of the battery system much, but it would reduce the legal paper
> work down to a normal electrical permit.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Willie via EV" 
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: "Willie" 
> Sent: 14-Jul-19 7:30:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)
>
> >
> >
> >On 7/14/19 9:06 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> >>How hard would it be to build a battery system that normally supplies
> 100% of the domestic power but, when depleted, switches over to supply
> domestic power from the grid ? Also, I think it would be safe assumption,
> or at least a reasonable simplification, to assume that the battery is
> always sufficient for the load, except when depleted. The battery would
> always be charging from a solar array, never from the grid.
> >>
> >>It seems to me, a system like this would completely circumvent any
> negative conditions imposed by power companies. Of course, once the solar
> panels fill the battery, excess production is lost.
> >
> >You have described a PowerWall.  The battery is one or more units that
> will supply or charge 5kw and holds 13-14kwh.  If about 11kwh will carry
> you over night and if you don't use more than 5kw over night, a single
> battery unit will serve you.  With good sun, day time self power use can be
> around 20kw, including car charging.
> >
> >In 5 or so months, I have bought less than 10kwh from my utility and sold
> them something like 10,000 kwh.  That is with one battery unit.
> >
> >Cost installed was about $13k.  For smooth operation, I am highly
> dependent on the utility to accept my excess power.
> >
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> >
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Peri Hartman via EV]

That depends on what you want from your battery. You are assuming a 
battery large enough to power your residence on a dark cloudy day. I'm 
saying to size it only large enough for more-or-less the best case. The 
rest of the time you buy grid power. That eliminates your points 1-5. It 
also means you don't have to deal with net metering, which apparently is 
resisted by many power companies.


True, you don't minimize buying power from the grid, but you do minimize 
the cost of the system, I think.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Cc: "Robert Bruninga" 
Sent: 14-Jul-19 7:22:30 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

That is why batteries TRIPLE the cost compared to a grid system and 
also require summer/winter life style changes:
1) As you say, when the batteries are full, all your solar investment 
is doing *nothing*
2) In order to have power on cloudy days, you have to oversize the 
batteries 3 to 5 times a day's capacity
3) Combine #1 and #2 and your solar is spending 1/3rd of most days 
doing *nothing*
4) You cannot store in batteries the 2X more energy you get in the 
summer for use later in the winter
5) So, you either throw away half of your solar production in the 
summer and live a tolerable winter life style
6) Or you invest for your summer lifestyle and then just survive the 
winter with half power.


Battery storage when you have the grid (net meter)  is simply not 
economically practical in any way whatsoever.
(Unless you get free batteries and are willling to maintain them for 
the rest of your life)...


Bob
Author http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html




On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 10:06 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:

How hard would it be to build a battery system that normally supplies
100% of the domestic power but, when depleted, switches over to supply
domestic power from the grid ? Also, I think it would be safe
assumption, or at least a reasonable simplification, to assume that 
the

battery is always sufficient for the load, except when depleted. The
battery would always be charging from a solar array, never from the
grid.

It seems to me, a system like this would completely circumvent any
negative conditions imposed by power companies. Of course, once the
solar panels fill the battery, excess production is lost.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Robert Bruninga" 
Sent: 14-Jul-19 4:54:09 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

>For what it is worth... For off grid or backup power,.I have some 
500W and
>2500W 120 VAC to 240VAC transformers.  Great for stepping up a single 
phase
>120v generator to 240 VAC for a well pump or other emergency power 
needs.

>
>https://baltimore.craigslist.org/ele/d/glen-burnie-v-transformers/6928546512.html
>
>$30. Baltimore area.  Will not ship.
>
>On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 12:40 AM Michael Ross via EV 


>wrote:
>
>>  I get all that because I have panels and a net metering plan with 
Duke
>>  Power. As I said it depends on whether your utility supports what 
you want

>>  to do. Clearly, YMMV.
>>
>>  I personally could do exactly as I described.  If I had an EV that 
needed
>>  charging regularly, I could put up a ground based array of 
microinverter
>>  120VAC output arrays, and add to them pretty much at will. If I 
over
>>  produced then Duke would bank it. In the billing month that 
contains May 31
>>  they would zero out any bank I had developed. I could live with 
that.

>>
>>  <
>>  
http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail

>>  >
>>  Virus-free.
>>  www.avg.com
>>  <
>>  
http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail

>>  >
>>  <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>
>>  On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 7:06 PM Mr. Sharkey via EV 


>>  wrote:
>>
>>  >  >>We're going back to the way intertie started off decades ago. 
 The

>>  > utilities
>>  > imposed impossible technical and insurance requirements on net 
metering,

>>  > which led PV hobbyists to start the Guerrilla Solar movement --
>>  essentially
>>  > doing grid intertie on the sly.
>>  >
>>  > This is veering around and nearly clipping the Off-Topic 
guardrails,

>>  > but because you brought it up:
>>  >
>>  > At least one to-be-left-unnamed EV driver and solar enthusiast 
was

>>  > guilty of participating in that clandestine program:
>>  >
>>  > http://www.westlanetv.org/~sharkey/

Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Actually, I am proposing something simpler than a power wall - that does 
not feed back to the grid. Maybe that simplification doesn't reduce the 
cost of the battery system much, but it would reduce the legal paper 
work down to a normal electrical permit.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Willie via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Willie" 
Sent: 14-Jul-19 7:30:58 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)




On 7/14/19 9:06 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

How hard would it be to build a battery system that normally supplies 100% of 
the domestic power but, when depleted, switches over to supply domestic power 
from the grid ? Also, I think it would be safe assumption, or at least a 
reasonable simplification, to assume that the battery is always sufficient for 
the load, except when depleted. The battery would always be charging from a 
solar array, never from the grid.

It seems to me, a system like this would completely circumvent any negative 
conditions imposed by power companies. Of course, once the solar panels fill 
the battery, excess production is lost.


You have described a PowerWall.  The battery is one or more units that will 
supply or charge 5kw and holds 13-14kwh.  If about 11kwh will carry you over 
night and if you don't use more than 5kw over night, a single battery unit will 
serve you.  With good sun, day time self power use can be around 20kw, 
including car charging.

In 5 or so months, I have bought less than 10kwh from my utility and sold them 
something like 10,000 kwh.  That is with one battery unit.

Cost installed was about $13k.  For smooth operation, I am highly dependent on 
the utility to accept my excess power.

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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Willie via EV]

On 7/14/19 9:06 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
How hard would it be to build a battery system that normally supplies 
100% of the domestic power but, when depleted, switches over to supply 
domestic power from the grid ? Also, I think it would be safe 
assumption, or at least a reasonable simplification, to assume that the 
battery is always sufficient for the load, except when depleted. The 
battery would always be charging from a solar array, never from the grid.


It seems to me, a system like this would completely circumvent any 
negative conditions imposed by power companies. Of course, once the 
solar panels fill the battery, excess production is lost.


You have described a PowerWall.  The battery is one or more units that 
will supply or charge 5kw and holds 13-14kwh.  If about 11kwh will carry 
you over night and if you don't use more than 5kw over night, a single 
battery unit will serve you.  With good sun, day time self power use can 
be around 20kw, including car charging.


In 5 or so months, I have bought less than 10kwh from my utility and 
sold them something like 10,000 kwh.  That is with one battery unit.


Cost installed was about $13k.  For smooth operation, I am highly 
dependent on the utility to accept my excess power.


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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

That is why batteries TRIPLE the cost compared to a grid system and also
require summer/winter life style changes:
1) As you say, when the batteries are full, all your solar investment is
doing *nothing*
2) In order to have power on cloudy days, you have to oversize the
batteries 3 to 5 times a day's capacity
3) Combine #1 and #2 and your solar is spending 1/3rd of most days doing
*nothing*
4) You cannot store in batteries the 2X more energy you get in the summer
for use later in the winter
5) So, you either throw away half of your solar production in the summer
and live a tolerable winter life style
6) Or you invest for your summer lifestyle and then just survive the winter
with half power.

Battery storage when you have the grid (net meter)  is simply not
economically practical in any way whatsoever.
(Unless you get free batteries and are willling to maintain them for the
rest of your life)...

Bob
Author http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html




On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 10:06 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> How hard would it be to build a battery system that normally supplies
> 100% of the domestic power but, when depleted, switches over to supply
> domestic power from the grid ? Also, I think it would be safe
> assumption, or at least a reasonable simplification, to assume that the
> battery is always sufficient for the load, except when depleted. The
> battery would always be charging from a solar array, never from the
> grid.
>
> It seems to me, a system like this would completely circumvent any
> negative conditions imposed by power companies. Of course, once the
> solar panels fill the battery, excess production is lost.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "Robert Bruninga" 
> Sent: 14-Jul-19 4:54:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)
>
> >For what it is worth... For off grid or backup power,.I have some 500W and
> >2500W 120 VAC to 240VAC transformers.  Great for stepping up a single
> phase
> >120v generator to 240 VAC for a well pump or other emergency power needs.
> >
> >
> https://baltimore.craigslist.org/ele/d/glen-burnie-v-transformers/6928546512.html
> >
> >$30. Baltimore area.  Will not ship.
> >
> >On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 12:40 AM Michael Ross via EV 
> >wrote:
> >
> >>  I get all that because I have panels and a net metering plan with Duke
> >>  Power. As I said it depends on whether your utility supports what you
> want
> >>  to do. Clearly, YMMV.
> >>
> >>  I personally could do exactly as I described.  If I had an EV that
> needed
> >>  charging regularly, I could put up a ground based array of
> microinverter
> >>  120VAC output arrays, and add to them pretty much at will. If I over
> >>  produced then Duke would bank it. In the billing month that contains
> May 31
> >>  they would zero out any bank I had developed. I could live with that.
> >>
> >>  <
> >>
> http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail
> >>  >
> >>  Virus-free.
> >>  www.avg.com
> >>  <
> >>
> http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail
> >>  >
> >>  <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> >>
> >>  On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 7:06 PM Mr. Sharkey via EV 
> >>  wrote:
> >>
> >>  >  >>We're going back to the way intertie started off decades ago.  The
> >>  > utilities
> >>  > imposed impossible technical and insurance requirements on net
> metering,
> >>  > which led PV hobbyists to start the Guerrilla Solar movement --
> >>  essentially
> >>  > doing grid intertie on the sly.
> >>  >
> >>  > This is veering around and nearly clipping the Off-Topic guardrails,
> >>  > but because you brought it up:
> >>  >
> >>  > At least one to-be-left-unnamed EV driver and solar enthusiast was
> >>  > guilty of participating in that clandestine program:
> >>  >
> >>  > http://www.westlanetv.org/~sharkey/gsolar.pdf
> >>  >
> >>  > And here's what happens when the utility figures it out:
> >>  >
> >>  > http://www.westlanetv.org/~sharkey/Amnesty_for_Solar_Guerrillas.pdf
> >>  >
> >>  > (see lower right of first page, and upper left of second)
> >>  >
> >>  > I, er this guy, got off easy, they could just as easily sic'ed the
> >>  > 

Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Peri Hartman via EV]

How hard would it be to build a battery system that normally supplies 
100% of the domestic power but, when depleted, switches over to supply 
domestic power from the grid ? Also, I think it would be safe 
assumption, or at least a reasonable simplification, to assume that the 
battery is always sufficient for the load, except when depleted. The 
battery would always be charging from a solar array, never from the 
grid.


It seems to me, a system like this would completely circumvent any 
negative conditions imposed by power companies. Of course, once the 
solar panels fill the battery, excess production is lost.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Robert Bruninga" 
Sent: 14-Jul-19 4:54:09 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)


For what it is worth... For off grid or backup power,.I have some 500W and
2500W 120 VAC to 240VAC transformers.  Great for stepping up a single phase
120v generator to 240 VAC for a well pump or other emergency power needs.

https://baltimore.craigslist.org/ele/d/glen-burnie-v-transformers/6928546512.html

$30. Baltimore area.  Will not ship.

On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 12:40 AM Michael Ross via EV 
wrote:


 I get all that because I have panels and a net metering plan with Duke
 Power. As I said it depends on whether your utility supports what you want
 to do. Clearly, YMMV.

 I personally could do exactly as I described.  If I had an EV that needed
 charging regularly, I could put up a ground based array of microinverter
 120VAC output arrays, and add to them pretty much at will. If I over
 produced then Duke would bank it. In the billing month that contains May 31
 they would zero out any bank I had developed. I could live with that.

 <
 
http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail
 >
 Virus-free.
 www.avg.com
 <
 
http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail
 >
 <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

 On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 7:06 PM Mr. Sharkey via EV 
 wrote:

 >  >>We're going back to the way intertie started off decades ago.  The
 > utilities
 > imposed impossible technical and insurance requirements on net metering,
 > which led PV hobbyists to start the Guerrilla Solar movement --
 essentially
 > doing grid intertie on the sly.
 >
 > This is veering around and nearly clipping the Off-Topic guardrails,
 > but because you brought it up:
 >
 > At least one to-be-left-unnamed EV driver and solar enthusiast was
 > guilty of participating in that clandestine program:
 >
 > http://www.westlanetv.org/~sharkey/gsolar.pdf
 >
 > And here's what happens when the utility figures it out:
 >
 > http://www.westlanetv.org/~sharkey/Amnesty_for_Solar_Guerrillas.pdf
 >
 > (see lower right of first page, and upper left of second)
 >
 > I, er this guy, got off easy, they could just as easily sic'ed the
 > County permit and inspection authority on me, uh, him, threatened
 > utility power disconnect, or applied other punitive sanctions such as
 > a retroactive energy charge of their own estimation. In the end , all
 > the utility wanted was to stop being annoyed by the alarms and alerts
 > in the new software program that they were running to administer the
 > smart meter program for 79,000 customers.
 >
 > Before I go, R.I.P. to friends Richard and Karen Perez, and goodbye
 > to Home Power Magazine, which ceased publication in October of 2018.
 >
 > 
 > Drink This Before Bed, Watch Your Body Fat Melt Like Crazy
 > Diet Insider
 > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5d2a63e484ff63da646est01vuc
 > ___
 > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
 > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
 > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
 >
 >

 --
 Michael E. Ross
 (919) 585-6737 Land
 (919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
 (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet,
 Google Phone and Text
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

For what it is worth... For off grid or backup power,.I have some 500W and
2500W 120 VAC to 240VAC transformers.  Great for stepping up a single phase
120v generator to 240 VAC for a well pump or other emergency power needs.

https://baltimore.craigslist.org/ele/d/glen-burnie-v-transformers/6928546512.html

$30. Baltimore area.  Will not ship.

On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 12:40 AM Michael Ross via EV 
wrote:

> I get all that because I have panels and a net metering plan with Duke
> Power. As I said it depends on whether your utility supports what you want
> to do. Clearly, YMMV.
>
> I personally could do exactly as I described.  If I had an EV that needed
> charging regularly, I could put up a ground based array of microinverter
> 120VAC output arrays, and add to them pretty much at will. If I over
> produced then Duke would bank it. In the billing month that contains May 31
> they would zero out any bank I had developed. I could live with that.
>
> <
> http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail
> >
> Virus-free.
> www.avg.com
> <
> http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail
> >
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 7:06 PM Mr. Sharkey via EV 
> wrote:
>
> >  >>We're going back to the way intertie started off decades ago.  The
> > utilities
> > imposed impossible technical and insurance requirements on net metering,
> > which led PV hobbyists to start the Guerrilla Solar movement --
> essentially
> > doing grid intertie on the sly.
> >
> > This is veering around and nearly clipping the Off-Topic guardrails,
> > but because you brought it up:
> >
> > At least one to-be-left-unnamed EV driver and solar enthusiast was
> > guilty of participating in that clandestine program:
> >
> > http://www.westlanetv.org/~sharkey/gsolar.pdf
> >
> > And here's what happens when the utility figures it out:
> >
> > http://www.westlanetv.org/~sharkey/Amnesty_for_Solar_Guerrillas.pdf
> >
> > (see lower right of first page, and upper left of second)
> >
> > I, er this guy, got off easy, they could just as easily sic'ed the
> > County permit and inspection authority on me, uh, him, threatened
> > utility power disconnect, or applied other punitive sanctions such as
> > a retroactive energy charge of their own estimation. In the end , all
> > the utility wanted was to stop being annoyed by the alarms and alerts
> > in the new software program that they were running to administer the
> > smart meter program for 79,000 customers.
> >
> > Before I go, R.I.P. to friends Richard and Karen Perez, and goodbye
> > to Home Power Magazine, which ceased publication in October of 2018.
> >
> > 
> > Drink This Before Bed, Watch Your Body Fat Melt Like Crazy
> > Diet Insider
> > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5d2a63e484ff63da646est01vuc
> > ___
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
>
> --
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
> (919) 576-0824  Tablet,
> Google Phone and Text
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Michael Ross via EV]

I get all that because I have panels and a net metering plan with Duke
Power. As I said it depends on whether your utility supports what you want
to do. Clearly, YMMV.

I personally could do exactly as I described.  If I had an EV that needed
charging regularly, I could put up a ground based array of microinverter
120VAC output arrays, and add to them pretty much at will. If I over
produced then Duke would bank it. In the billing month that contains May 31
they would zero out any bank I had developed. I could live with that.


Virus-free.
www.avg.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 7:06 PM Mr. Sharkey via EV 
wrote:

>  >>We're going back to the way intertie started off decades ago.  The
> utilities
> imposed impossible technical and insurance requirements on net metering,
> which led PV hobbyists to start the Guerrilla Solar movement -- essentially
> doing grid intertie on the sly.
>
> This is veering around and nearly clipping the Off-Topic guardrails,
> but because you brought it up:
>
> At least one to-be-left-unnamed EV driver and solar enthusiast was
> guilty of participating in that clandestine program:
>
> http://www.westlanetv.org/~sharkey/gsolar.pdf
>
> And here's what happens when the utility figures it out:
>
> http://www.westlanetv.org/~sharkey/Amnesty_for_Solar_Guerrillas.pdf
>
> (see lower right of first page, and upper left of second)
>
> I, er this guy, got off easy, they could just as easily sic'ed the
> County permit and inspection authority on me, uh, him, threatened
> utility power disconnect, or applied other punitive sanctions such as
> a retroactive energy charge of their own estimation. In the end , all
> the utility wanted was to stop being annoyed by the alarms and alerts
> in the new software program that they were running to administer the
> smart meter program for 79,000 customers.
>
> Before I go, R.I.P. to friends Richard and Karen Perez, and goodbye
> to Home Power Magazine, which ceased publication in October of 2018.
>
> 
> Drink This Before Bed, Watch Your Body Fat Melt Like Crazy
> Diet Insider
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5d2a63e484ff63da646est01vuc
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

-- 
Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
(919) 576-0824  Tablet,
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Fri Jul 12 22:13:25 PDT 2019 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>Well, if "simple" is what you want, the simplest way is a rotary
>converter (motor-generator). Use your solar power to run a DC motor. Use
>the motor to drive an AC alternator. The alternator can produce
>essentially perfect 60Hz sinewave power; good enough so nothing you plug
>in (including your electric car charger) can tell the difference.

Hmm, I coud actually do that with my conversion.
Just need a good RPM speed control, and belt drive to an AC generator head.



--

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http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250

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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Mr. Sharkey via EV]

>>We're going back to the way intertie started off decades ago.  The 
utilities

imposed impossible technical and insurance requirements on net metering,
which led PV hobbyists to start the Guerrilla Solar movement -- essentially
doing grid intertie on the sly.

This is veering around and nearly clipping the Off-Topic guardrails, 
but because you brought it up:


At least one to-be-left-unnamed EV driver and solar enthusiast was 
guilty of participating in that clandestine program:


http://www.westlanetv.org/~sharkey/gsolar.pdf

And here's what happens when the utility figures it out:

http://www.westlanetv.org/~sharkey/Amnesty_for_Solar_Guerrillas.pdf

(see lower right of first page, and upper left of second)

I, er this guy, got off easy, they could just as easily sic'ed the 
County permit and inspection authority on me, uh, him, threatened 
utility power disconnect, or applied other punitive sanctions such as 
a retroactive energy charge of their own estimation. In the end , all 
the utility wanted was to stop being annoyed by the alarms and alerts 
in the new software program that they were running to administer the 
smart meter program for 79,000 customers.


Before I go, R.I.P. to friends Richard and Karen Perez, and goodbye 
to Home Power Magazine, which ceased publication in October of 2018.



Drink This Before Bed, Watch Your Body Fat Melt Like Crazy
Diet Insider
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5d2a63e484ff63da646est01vuc
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Amen!
If your state has good net-metering laws SIGN UP NOW!
Before the fossil fuel and big utilities and lobbyists get laws passed to
protect their monopolies like they did in Florida.

Solar is dirt cheap in states with good net metering agreements, but
blocked by the utilities and ignorance in some other states.  Get it now,
before the Federal Tax credit goes down at the end of 2019, and before
those lobbyists screw homeowners with more protective monopoly legislation.

I'd love to hear details of how bad it is now in Florida.
See:
https://www.tampabay.com/opinion/columns/how-the-power-companies-killed-solar-energy-in-the-sunshine-state-daniel-ruth-20190712/

Bob

On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 4:38 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 13 Jul 2019 at 12:39, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:
>
> > Virtually ~all~ utility companies require a customer who plans to
> > produce power and introduce it to their grid to have complied with
> > stringent regulations ... you will almost certainly be *charged* for
> > any excess power that you push back into the grid, rather than
> > credited for it
>
> Thanks for making that point.  I'm surprised at how the PV world continues
> to treat grid intertie as some kind of holy grail, even as the power
> companies take every opportunity to make it more difficult and expensive.
>
> At least in most parts of the US, and even in some places in Europe, the
> grid is NOT a gigantic free battery.  You PAY to use it.  And what you pay
> is not likely to decrease; quite to the contrary.
>
> We're going back to the way intertie started off decades ago.  The
> utilities
> imposed impossible technical and insurance requirements on net metering,
> which led PV hobbyists to start the Guerrilla Solar movement --
> essentially
> doing grid intertie on the sly.
>
> Then various states and localities, and some European nations, passed laws
> supporting net metering.  That's when intertie started to take off.  But
> more recently, the utilites have been buying politicians and getting the
> net
> metering laws reversed.  Guess what -- Guerrilla Solar is back.  Not that
> I'd ever do such a thing, mind you.
>
> I don't think the power companies are going to stop pushing back until
> they've effectively killed grid intertie.
>
> If I were building a PV system in the US today, I'd probably make it 100%
> off grid.  I'd feed a subpanel with it, and as I was able to expand the
> system over a period of years, I'd gradually transfer loads from utility
> power to home power.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Willie via EV]

On 7/13/19 9:44 AM, Jay Summet via EV wrote:

Also, the PowerWall is able to "fake" the grid well enough that grid tie 
inverters will "powerup" and start to feed power back into what they 
believe is the "grid" but is instead the powerwall. (which accepts the 
power so that the voltage does not climb too high).


I have more PV than my transformer can handle and see high voltages with 
high PV production.  The result is that inverters shut down at around 
260.  Though each inverter seems to have a different threshold.  I have 
a 15kva transformer, though I'm trying to get a 37.5kva, and my PV might 
do as much as 30kw.


I believe that when the powerwall is fully charged (can accept no more 
power) it shifts the frequency of the power from 60 to some other value 
(62 hz?) that is outside of the standards, which causes the grid tie 
inverters to stop feeding current into "the grid".


I first figured the PowerWall allowed voltage to rise and inverters to 
shut themselves down when PV production was too high.  That is while off 
grid.  I've since learned that the PW inverter, while grid spoofing, 
uses a different frequency.  While running off grid, I observe old type 
motor clocks not keeping good time.  I have only one PW battery unit but 
I believe each battery unit has it's own inverter.  With more than one 
battery unit, I suppose one must the the master and the others sync to 
it.  When the PW doesn't have anywhere to go with the PV power (battery 
charged) it shuts down PV inverters by, I suppose, going to a more 
different frequency.  Something like: 62 hz tells every one that the PW 
is spoofing but the PV inverters are happy with it.  Some other 
frequency, say 64 hz, is enough to shut down PV inverters.


I've been pondering how one might detect the "I'm about to shut down PV 
inverters" condition so that some optional loads could be switched on. 
Any suggestions there?


I haven't done enough off grid experimenting to learn how the PW cycles 
on a full battery.  I suspect it might take the battery down maybe 10% 
with PV inverters off, then turn them back on until the battery is fully 
charged again.


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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 13 Jul 2019 at 12:39, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:

> Virtually ~all~ utility companies require a customer who plans to
> produce power and introduce it to their grid to have complied with
> stringent regulations ... you will almost certainly be *charged* for
> any excess power that you push back into the grid, rather than
> credited for it 

Thanks for making that point.  I'm surprised at how the PV world continues 
to treat grid intertie as some kind of holy grail, even as the power 
companies take every opportunity to make it more difficult and expensive.  

At least in most parts of the US, and even in some places in Europe, the 
grid is NOT a gigantic free battery.  You PAY to use it.  And what you pay 
is not likely to decrease; quite to the contrary.

We're going back to the way intertie started off decades ago.  The utilities 
imposed impossible technical and insurance requirements on net metering, 
which led PV hobbyists to start the Guerrilla Solar movement -- essentially 
doing grid intertie on the sly.

Then various states and localities, and some European nations, passed laws 
supporting net metering.  That's when intertie started to take off.  But 
more recently, the utilites have been buying politicians and getting the net 
metering laws reversed.  Guess what -- Guerrilla Solar is back.  Not that 
I'd ever do such a thing, mind you.

I don't think the power companies are going to stop pushing back until 
they've effectively killed grid intertie.  

If I were building a PV system in the US today, I'd probably make it 100% 
off grid.  I'd feed a subpanel with it, and as I was able to expand the 
system over a period of years, I'd gradually transfer loads from utility 
power to home power.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Jay Summet via EV]

Is it possible to charge an EV direct from the sun? Yes, but it's not 
"buy it at Wallmart and plug it in" simple. Yet.


Well, you COULD buy everything at walmart(.com), but yes, you would have 
to do some wiring yourself to get all the items to plug into each other. 
(I would not recommend these specific items, or buying solar gear at 
walmart, as you can do a lot better in price and quality elsewhere...but 
as an example...)


2000 - (4k peak) watt power inverter:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Whistler-2000-Watt-Power-Inverter-4000-Watt-Peak-Power/40626655

800w of solar panels & charge controller (massively overpriced! And 
you'd probably want closer to 2000 watts of solar for continuous 
charging, or a LOT of batteries)

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Renogy-800W-24V-Solar-Panel-Monocrystalline-Off-Grid-Starter-Kit-with-40A-Rover-MPPT-Charger-Controller/147049810

12v deep cycle battery (may need more than one if you want to store 
solar power when the car isn't plugged in)

https://www.walmart.com/ip/12V-100AH-BATTERY-FOR-SOLAR-WIND-DEEP-CYCLE-VRLA-12V-24V-48V/179446910

Level1/2 EVSE:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/ACCELL-P-120240V-USA-001-Dual-Voltage-AxFAST-Portable-Electric-Vehicle-Charger-EVSE-Level-2/399778767
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Mr. Sharkey via EV]

No, you're not being misunderstood, but you apparently are 
misunderstanding how the module-level inverters will be accepted by 
your power provider.


Virtually ~all~ utility companies require a customer who plans to 
produce power and introduce it to their grid to have complied with 
stringent regulations, both technical and legal, and have in place a 
contract to feed the power into their grid. A net metering agreement 
or tariff contract is required whether you produce enough to "spin 
the meter backwards" or you will consume all of the power produced at 
the time of production.


Worse, if you have any type of electronic revenue meter (as opposed 
to the old, "spinning disc" meters), you will almost certainly be 
*charged* for any excess power that you push back into the grid, 
rather than credited for it. Electronic meters can tell which way the 
energy is going, but are programmed by default to treat every 
Watt-hour that crosses them to be consumption. The 
net-metering/tariff agreement will provide you with a meter that has 
been programmed to have separate registers for consumption and production.


You're also likely to run afoul of local and state regulations 
concerning electrical codes if you simply "plug in" your AC modules. 
Many of the less expensive (read: china made) "micro inverters" will 
not have the certifications to comply with the utility's and NEC requirements.


Is it possible to charge an EV direct from the sun? Yes, but it's not 
"buy it at Wallmart and plug it in" simple. Yet.





>>It seems like I am being misunderstood. You can buy solar arrays each with
its own MPP and inverter to produce 120VAC. You can buy one and add more
over time with out consideration of string balancing and such.

You can tie them to the grid, and if your rate plan us good then you will
be offsetting the cost of charging your EV with whatever the present size
of your microinverter solar arrays is.


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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Jim Walls via EV]

On 07/13/2019 07:44, Jay Summet via EV wrote:
Also, the PowerWall is able to "fake" the grid well enough that grid 
tie inverters will "powerup" and start to feed power back into what 
they believe is the "grid" but is instead the powerwall. (which 
accepts the power so that the voltage does not climb too high).


I believe that when the powerwall is fully charged (can accept no more 
power) it shifts the frequency of the power from 60 to some other 
value (62 hz?) that is outside of the standards, which causes the grid 
tie inverters to stop feeding current into "the grid".


So in this way a PowerWall attached to a house with a grid tie 
inverter (either a single wall mount or microinverters on each panel) 
can use the solar power to refill in the power outage as well as to 
share the load from the house when the sun is out.


My solar installation vendor is just starting to sell / lease the Tesla 
Powerwall.  The advertising mailing (take that for whatever it's worth) 
implies without the technical part similar to the way Jay describes it.  
I have not contacted them yet, but am interested to see what they are 
offering...  They were specifically talking about situations where the 
electric utility cuts power to reduce bush fire risk and the PowerWall 
as a way to stay up and operating.


--
73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org
Ofc:  818-548-4804

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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Michael Ross via EV]

It seems like I am being misunderstood. You can buy solar arrays each with
its own MPP and inverter to produce 120VAC. You can buy one and add more
over time with out consideration of string balancing and such.

You can tie them to the grid, and if your rate plan us good then you will
be offsetting the cost of charging your EV with whatever the present size
of your microinverter solar arrays is.


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On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 1:23 AM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> > No, just because it produces 60 Hz AC does not make it a Microinverter.
> > Anyone can make an inverter,  They are dirt cheap from 1kw to 3 kW and
> only
> > cost about 15 cents a watt!  You can buy a 2 kW "inverter" for not much
> > more than $300.  But that does not make it a Grid-Tie microinverer.
> >
> > A grid tie microinverter is a CURRENT SOURCE that pushes current against
> an
> > existing waveform  It has to have an infinite load (the grid) or the
> > voltage will soar out of sight if the load goes down.  That is what
> current
> > sources do.  Fundamental EE.
>
> Bob is right. People are being a bit loose with their definitions.
>
> A "microinverter" is just a small inverter. There are zillions of these.
>
> A normal inverter is one whose control circuits make it behave like a
> voltage source. The inverter sets the output voltage and frequency at
> (say 120vac 60hz). The load then draws whatever current it needs, from 0
> to the max power the inverter can handle. The inverter does its best to
> hold the voltage at 120vac while supplying that current.
>
> A "grid tie" inverter is an inverter whose control circuits make it
> behave like a current source. The *grid* sets the voltage and frequency;
> the inverter just delivers its current. Without a grid, such an inverter
> won't work.
>
> The power section of an inverter is the same, regardless of what type it
> is. The differences are in the control circuitry. Generally, the power
> section costs all the money. The control circuitry is cheap in comparison.
>
> > Sure, one can design a box that can do both,  But that is a complex
> > internal circuitry that does either one or the other, but they are
> totally
> > different circuits...
>
> Well, nowdays it's just a one-chip microcomputer that costs a few
> dollars; no matter what kind of inverter you're building.
>
> --
> In software development, there are two kinds of error: Conceptual
> errors, implementation errors, and off-by-one errors. (anonymous)
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Jay Summet via EV]

On 7/13/19 12:03 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:


When the powerwall battery is selling power to the grid, it is using its
current-source grid-tie circuitry.  When it is islanding as a backup power
system without a grid, it is using completely different circuitry as a
stand alone inverter.  


Also, the PowerWall is able to "fake" the grid well enough that grid tie 
inverters will "powerup" and start to feed power back into what they 
believe is the "grid" but is instead the powerwall. (which accepts the 
power so that the voltage does not climb too high).


I believe that when the powerwall is fully charged (can accept no more 
power) it shifts the frequency of the power from 60 to some other value 
(62 hz?) that is outside of the standards, which causes the grid tie 
inverters to stop feeding current into "the grid".


So in this way a PowerWall attached to a house with a grid tie inverter 
(either a single wall mount or microinverters on each panel) can use the 
solar power to refill in the power outage as well as to share the load 
from the house when the sun is out.


Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Lee Hart via EV]

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

No, just because it produces 60 Hz AC does not make it a Microinverter.
Anyone can make an inverter,  They are dirt cheap from 1kw to 3 kW and only
cost about 15 cents a watt!  You can buy a 2 kW "inverter" for not much
more than $300.  But that does not make it a Grid-Tie microinverer.

A grid tie microinverter is a CURRENT SOURCE that pushes current against an
existing waveform  It has to have an infinite load (the grid) or the
voltage will soar out of sight if the load goes down.  That is what current
sources do.  Fundamental EE.


Bob is right. People are being a bit loose with their definitions.

A "microinverter" is just a small inverter. There are zillions of these.

A normal inverter is one whose control circuits make it behave like a 
voltage source. The inverter sets the output voltage and frequency at 
(say 120vac 60hz). The load then draws whatever current it needs, from 0 
to the max power the inverter can handle. The inverter does its best to 
hold the voltage at 120vac while supplying that current.


A "grid tie" inverter is an inverter whose control circuits make it 
behave like a current source. The *grid* sets the voltage and frequency; 
the inverter just delivers its current. Without a grid, such an inverter 
won't work.


The power section of an inverter is the same, regardless of what type it 
is. The differences are in the control circuitry. Generally, the power 
section costs all the money. The control circuitry is cheap in comparison.



Sure, one can design a box that can do both,  But that is a complex
internal circuitry that does either one or the other, but they are totally
different circuits...


Well, nowdays it's just a one-chip microcomputer that costs a few 
dollars; no matter what kind of inverter you're building.


--
In software development, there are two kinds of error: Conceptual
errors, implementation errors, and off-by-one errors. (anonymous)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Lee Hart via EV]

Michael Ross via EV wrote:

Micro-inverters. Yes, grid tie is best. And most economical and completely
normal. That is true for residential solar generally,  most homes will
benefit from grid tie. So no problem.


*If* you have the grid, then grid-tie inverters make sense. No batteries 
needed. :-)


But if you are off-grid, there are also lots of free-standing DC-to-AC 
inverters. For decades, this was the only kind of inverters we had! I 
have a solid-state 12vdc-to-120vac 60Hz inverter built in the 1960's! It 
still works, too.


Jim Erdman via EV  wrote:

There is currently no simple way to do what you are thinking of.


Well, if "simple" is what you want, the simplest way is a rotary 
converter (motor-generator). Use your solar power to run a DC motor. Use 
the motor to drive an AC alternator. The alternator can produce 
essentially perfect 60Hz sinewave power; good enough so nothing you plug 
in (including your electric car charger) can tell the difference.


A rotary converter is a merged motor-generator specifically built to do 
this. They have been used for this purpose for close to 100 years. Small 
ones are only 60-80% efficinet; but once you get above 1 KW or so, their 
efficiency is pretty good (over 90%).


--
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errors, implementation errors, and off-by-one errors. (anonymous)
--
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

>> Microinverters will not work without a grid

> Microinverters work fine with some grid spoofing device/inverter
> Battery back up systems do it.  Tesla PowerWall, for example.

No, just because it produces 60 Hz AC does not make it a Microinverter.
Anyone can make an inverter,  They are dirt cheap from 1kw to 3 kW and only
cost about 15 cents a watt!  You can buy a 2 kW "inverter" for not much
more than $300.  But that does not make it a Grid-Tie microinverer.

A grid tie microinverter is a CURRENT SOURCE that pushes current against an
existing waveform  It has to have an infinite load (the grid) or the
voltage will soar out of sight if the load goes down.  That is what current
sources do.  Fundamental EE.

Sure, one can design a box that can do both,  But that is a complex
internal circuitry that does either one or the other, but they are totally
different circuits...

When the powerwall battery is selling power to the grid, it is using its
current-source grid-tie circuitry.  When it is islanding as a backup power
system without a grid, it is using completely different circuitry as a
stand alone inverter.  Maybe the circuits can share the same power
switching devices on the 120/240 volt side, but the driving circuitry and
function are entirely different.

And a power wall circuitry is certainly not a "microinverter".  Lets keep
the terminology clear.

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Michael Ross via EV]

Grid tie is the most sensible storage medium that we have.


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On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 7:15 PM Robert Bruninga  wrote:

> Microinverters will not work without a grid
> bob
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of Michael Ross via EV
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 6:57 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> Cc: Michael Ross 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?
>
> I haven't looked closely at this, but panels with on board micro-inverters
> are nice because you can buy one now, buy another one later, etc., until
> you have the kW you want. They output 120VAC.  Seems like a good way to
> support an EV, or at least cover some of the charging with solar.
>
> I suspect that trying to have home EV charging all from solar, is the same
> problem as running a home with all solar - it really drives up cost
> planning for peak demand, and dealing with cloudy days - fi you are going
> to store a large excess that is going to be a a lot of batteries. It makes
> a grid tied system the economically pleasing choice. You can grid tie
> micro-inverter panels.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 4:18 PM Robert Bruninga via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > Yes, But of course, solar can only charge the EV during the day.  The
> > simplistic approach using off-the shelf components would need a
> > minimum of
> > 2 kW of solar panels (8 or more) to be sure tha most solar days could
> > produce the absolute minimum of 1.5 kW which is the minimum standard
> > 120v EV charge cord.
> >
> > But then you have to go from the DC solar panels at 30v or so to the
> > 120 VAC needed by the standard charge cord.  To do that, you need a DC
> > solar battery charge regulator, then a small 24 volt battery (to
> > smooth the
> > energy) to drive a 2 kW 24votl AC inverter.  Then you plug the car
> > charger into that.
> >
> > And you have to have a low-voltage cutout circuit so you don't run the
> > 24v battery down when the clouds come oue, etc...
> >
> > So as you can see, it is a kludge of off-the-shelf items because no
> > one has yet built a consumer device to take direct Solar DC and handle
> > all these functions to deliver stable power to the car.
> >
> > If that property has the grid to it, it makes no sense to ever
> > consider going off grid.  Because with a net meter you have 100% free
> > solar storage.  And for a remote vacation property that is only
> > occupied say 10% of the time, then  you only need 10% of the solar
> > panels because those 10% can be storing months worth of power in the
> > grid (via the net meter) that is available to your instantly anytime you
> visit the house.
> >
> > Off grid makes zero economic sense if the grid is available.  But if
> > the grid is not available, then off-grid is the only way to go, BUT
> > the solar array has to be X times bigger to accommodate the full power
> > needed in the single worst day need.  Where as with grid tie, a much
> > smaller set of panels can be stroing a yeaers worth of sunshine in the
> > grid for free that you can draw out at any time and at ANY rate... Up
> > to the maximum capacity of the grid-to-the-house.
> >
> > Bob, WB4aPR
> > Author http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: EV  On Behalf Of Mark Laity-Snyder
> > via EV
> > Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 3:55 PM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> > Cc: Mark Laity-Snyder 
> > Subject: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Would it be possible to hook a small solar panel system to an EV and
> > use the EV as the battery storage for an off grid solar system?  What
> > would be needed to make that happen?  I envision solar panels
> > connected to microinverters which would 

Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Michael Ross via EV]

Micro-inverters. Yes, grid tie is best. And most economical and completely
normal. That is true for residential solar generally,  most homes will
benefit from grid tie. So no problem.

On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 7:21 PM jim via EV  wrote:

>  Microinverters that are currentlly available require grid tie to
> function, or some source of good AC to feed into.  My garage and shop
> system is off grid and charges the Leaf in addition to running other stuff,
> but it has a seperate 1500 amp hour 24 volt battery that is charged by
> solar and wind.  I can charge the Leaf at up to 4 kw due to the size of my
> inverter.  There is currently no simple way to do what you are thinking of.
> Jim Erdman, in Western Wisconsin
> SNIP

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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Willie via EV]

On 7/12/19 6:15 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

Microinverters will not work without a grid
bob



Microinverters work fine with some grid spoofing device/inverter. 
Battery back up systems do it.  Tesla PowerWall, for example.


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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Microinverters will not work without a grid
bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Michael Ross via EV
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 6:57 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Michael Ross 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

I haven't looked closely at this, but panels with on board micro-inverters
are nice because you can buy one now, buy another one later, etc., until
you have the kW you want. They output 120VAC.  Seems like a good way to
support an EV, or at least cover some of the charging with solar.

I suspect that trying to have home EV charging all from solar, is the same
problem as running a home with all solar - it really drives up cost
planning for peak demand, and dealing with cloudy days - fi you are going
to store a large excess that is going to be a a lot of batteries. It makes
a grid tied system the economically pleasing choice. You can grid tie
micro-inverter panels.







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On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 4:18 PM Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> Yes, But of course, solar can only charge the EV during the day.  The
> simplistic approach using off-the shelf components would need a
> minimum of
> 2 kW of solar panels (8 or more) to be sure tha most solar days could
> produce the absolute minimum of 1.5 kW which is the minimum standard
> 120v EV charge cord.
>
> But then you have to go from the DC solar panels at 30v or so to the
> 120 VAC needed by the standard charge cord.  To do that, you need a DC
> solar battery charge regulator, then a small 24 volt battery (to
> smooth the
> energy) to drive a 2 kW 24votl AC inverter.  Then you plug the car
> charger into that.
>
> And you have to have a low-voltage cutout circuit so you don't run the
> 24v battery down when the clouds come oue, etc...
>
> So as you can see, it is a kludge of off-the-shelf items because no
> one has yet built a consumer device to take direct Solar DC and handle
> all these functions to deliver stable power to the car.
>
> If that property has the grid to it, it makes no sense to ever
> consider going off grid.  Because with a net meter you have 100% free
> solar storage.  And for a remote vacation property that is only
> occupied say 10% of the time, then  you only need 10% of the solar
> panels because those 10% can be storing months worth of power in the
> grid (via the net meter) that is available to your instantly anytime you
visit the house.
>
> Off grid makes zero economic sense if the grid is available.  But if
> the grid is not available, then off-grid is the only way to go, BUT
> the solar array has to be X times bigger to accommodate the full power
> needed in the single worst day need.  Where as with grid tie, a much
> smaller set of panels can be stroing a yeaers worth of sunshine in the
> grid for free that you can draw out at any time and at ANY rate... Up
> to the maximum capacity of the grid-to-the-house.
>
> Bob, WB4aPR
> Author http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of Mark Laity-Snyder
> via EV
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 3:55 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> Cc: Mark Laity-Snyder 
> Subject: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?
>
> Hi all,
>
> Would it be possible to hook a small solar panel system to an EV and
> use the EV as the battery storage for an off grid solar system?  What
> would be needed to make that happen?  I envision solar panels
> connected to microinverters which would then charge the EV.  Then if
> you needed power at night, you could use some power from the EV.
> Would that work?  Would you need another part to that puzzle to get it
> to work?  Would it cause problems for the EV?
>
> I am not looking to do this myself but we had a guy come and charge
> his Tesla at our place.  He has a lot and camper where he goes camping
> and would like to install solar and be off grid.  I was just wondering
> what that setup would look like.
>
> Mark.
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>
>

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(919) 5

Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[jim via EV]

 Microinverters that are currentlly available require grid tie to function, or 
some source of good AC to feed into.  My garage and shop system is off grid and 
charges the Leaf in addition to running other stuff, but it has a seperate 1500 
amp hour 24 volt battery that is charged by solar and wind.  I can charge the 
Leaf at up to 4 kw due to the size of my inverter.  There is currently no 
simple way to do what you are thinking of.
Jim Erdman, in Western Wisconsin
On Friday, July 12, 2019, 03:09:26 PM CDT, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org 
 wrote:  
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 19:54:39 + (UTC)
From: Mark Laity-Snyder 
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Subject: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?
Message-ID: <1050893527.312695.1562961279...@mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hi all,

Would it be possible to hook a small solar panel system to an EV and use the EV 
as the battery storage for an off grid solar system?  What would be needed to 
make that happen?  I envision solar panels connected to microinverters which 
would then charge the EV.  Then if you needed power at night, you could use 
some power from the EV.  Would that work?  Would you need another part to that 
puzzle to get it to work?  Would it cause problems for the EV?

I am not looking to do this myself but we had a guy come and charge his Tesla 
at our place.  He has a lot and camper where he goes camping and would like to 
install solar and be off grid.  I was just wondering what that setup would look 
like.

Mark.

**
  
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Michael Ross via EV]

I haven't looked closely at this, but panels with on board micro-inverters
are nice because you can buy one now, buy another one later, etc., until
you have the kW you want. They output 120VAC.  Seems like a good way to
support an EV, or at least cover some of the charging with solar.

I suspect that trying to have home EV charging all from solar, is the same
problem as running a home with all solar - it really drives up cost
planning for peak demand, and dealing with cloudy days - fi you are going
to store a large excess that is going to be a a lot of batteries. It makes
a grid tied system the economically pleasing choice. You can grid tie
micro-inverter panels.







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On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 4:18 PM Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> Yes, But of course, solar can only charge the EV during the day.  The
> simplistic approach using off-the shelf components would need a minimum of
> 2 kW of solar panels (8 or more) to be sure tha most solar days could
> produce the absolute minimum of 1.5 kW which is the minimum standard 120v
> EV charge cord.
>
> But then you have to go from the DC solar panels at 30v or so to the 120
> VAC needed by the standard charge cord.  To do that, you need a DC solar
> battery charge regulator, then a small 24 volt battery (to smooth the
> energy) to drive a 2 kW 24votl AC inverter.  Then you plug the car charger
> into that.
>
> And you have to have a low-voltage cutout circuit so you don't run the 24v
> battery down when the clouds come oue, etc...
>
> So as you can see, it is a kludge of off-the-shelf items because no one
> has yet built a consumer device to take direct Solar DC and handle all
> these functions to deliver stable power to the car.
>
> If that property has the grid to it, it makes no sense to ever consider
> going off grid.  Because with a net meter you have 100% free solar
> storage.  And for a remote vacation property that is only occupied say 10%
> of the time, then  you only need 10% of the solar panels because those 10%
> can be storing months worth of power in the grid (via the net meter) that
> is available to your instantly anytime you visit the house.
>
> Off grid makes zero economic sense if the grid is available.  But if the
> grid is not available, then off-grid is the only way to go, BUT the solar
> array has to be X times bigger to accommodate the full power needed in the
> single worst day need.  Where as with grid tie, a much smaller set of
> panels can be stroing a yeaers worth of sunshine in the grid for free that
> you can draw out at any time and at ANY rate... Up to the maximum capacity
> of the grid-to-the-house.
>
> Bob, WB4aPR
> Author http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of Mark Laity-Snyder via EV
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 3:55 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> Cc: Mark Laity-Snyder 
> Subject: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?
>
> Hi all,
>
> Would it be possible to hook a small solar panel system to an EV and use
> the EV as the battery storage for an off grid solar system?  What would be
> needed to make that happen?  I envision solar panels connected to
> microinverters which would then charge the EV.  Then if you needed power
> at night, you could use some power from the EV.  Would that work?  Would
> you need another part to that puzzle to get it to work?  Would it cause
> problems for the EV?
>
> I am not looking to do this myself but we had a guy come and charge his
> Tesla at our place.  He has a lot and camper where he goes camping and
> would like to install solar and be off grid.  I was just wondering what
> that setup would look like.
>
> Mark.
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

-- 
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(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet,
Google Phone and Text
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Willie via EV]

On 7/12/19 2:54 PM, Mark Laity-Snyder via EV wrote:

Hi all,

Would it be possible to hook a small solar panel system to an EV and use the EV 
as the battery storage for an off grid solar system?  What would be needed to 
make that happen?  I envision solar panels connected to microinverters which 
would then charge the EV.  Then if you needed power at night, you could use 
some power from the EV.  Would that work?  Would you need another part to that 
puzzle to get it to work?  Would it cause problems for the EV?

I am not looking to do this myself but we had a guy come and charge his Tesla 
at our place.  He has a lot and camper where he goes camping and would like to 
install solar and be off grid.  I was just wondering what that setup would look 
like.


There are a number of possibilities.  AFAIK, none very workable right now.

Nissan supports home power (grid spoofing) for the Leaf but, AFAIK, only 
in Japan.


Tesla offers the PowerWall which is very good though it uses only it's 
own battery; that is, it will not use a car battery for backup storage. 
 It will operate off grid so you can charge a car from it and PV.


With a conversion, it is pretty straight forward to use the battery for 
home backup.  But, factory EVs have intentional stumbling blocks built in.


I'll Bcc: this to a local Tesla group member that hopes to develop a 
scheme for charging his car from PV off grid.  Even though he has a grid 
connection.  Perhaps he will contact you.



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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Yes, But of course, solar can only charge the EV during the day.  The
simplistic approach using off-the shelf components would need a minimum of
2 kW of solar panels (8 or more) to be sure tha most solar days could
produce the absolute minimum of 1.5 kW which is the minimum standard 120v
EV charge cord.

But then you have to go from the DC solar panels at 30v or so to the 120
VAC needed by the standard charge cord.  To do that, you need a DC solar
battery charge regulator, then a small 24 volt battery (to smooth the
energy) to drive a 2 kW 24votl AC inverter.  Then you plug the car charger
into that.

And you have to have a low-voltage cutout circuit so you don't run the 24v
battery down when the clouds come oue, etc...

So as you can see, it is a kludge of off-the-shelf items because no one
has yet built a consumer device to take direct Solar DC and handle all
these functions to deliver stable power to the car.

If that property has the grid to it, it makes no sense to ever consider
going off grid.  Because with a net meter you have 100% free solar
storage.  And for a remote vacation property that is only occupied say 10%
of the time, then  you only need 10% of the solar panels because those 10%
can be storing months worth of power in the grid (via the net meter) that
is available to your instantly anytime you visit the house.

Off grid makes zero economic sense if the grid is available.  But if the
grid is not available, then off-grid is the only way to go, BUT the solar
array has to be X times bigger to accommodate the full power needed in the
single worst day need.  Where as with grid tie, a much smaller set of
panels can be stroing a yeaers worth of sunshine in the grid for free that
you can draw out at any time and at ANY rate... Up to the maximum capacity
of the grid-to-the-house.

Bob, WB4aPR
Author http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Mark Laity-Snyder via EV
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 3:55 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Mark Laity-Snyder 
Subject: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

Hi all,

Would it be possible to hook a small solar panel system to an EV and use
the EV as the battery storage for an off grid solar system?  What would be
needed to make that happen?  I envision solar panels connected to
microinverters which would then charge the EV.  Then if you needed power
at night, you could use some power from the EV.  Would that work?  Would
you need another part to that puzzle to get it to work?  Would it cause
problems for the EV?

I am not looking to do this myself but we had a guy come and charge his
Tesla at our place.  He has a lot and camper where he goes camping and
would like to install solar and be off grid.  I was just wondering what
that setup would look like.

Mark.
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[EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Mark Laity-Snyder via EV]

Hi all,

Would it be possible to hook a small solar panel system to an EV and use the EV 
as the battery storage for an off grid solar system?  What would be needed to 
make that happen?  I envision solar panels connected to microinverters which 
would then charge the EV.  Then if you needed power at night, you could use 
some power from the EV.  Would that work?  Would you need another part to that 
puzzle to get it to work?  Would it cause problems for the EV?

I am not looking to do this myself but we had a guy come and charge his Tesla 
at our place.  He has a lot and camper where he goes camping and would like to 
install solar and be off grid.  I was just wondering what that setup would look 
like.

Mark.
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