Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Collin Kidder via EV]

Both are 24khw packs. In warm weather the 2012 still gets terrible range,
something like 45-50 miles. The 2013 can get around 60-65 miles range in
warm weather.


On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 11:16 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> Ok, good to know. So that appears to show that the "lizard" battery
> performs better in cold weather than the original battery. I presume
> both are 24kWh batteries. Do you have warm weather range numbers to
> compare to ?
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Collin Kidder via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "Collin Kidder" 
> Sent: 01-Dec-22 06:52:28
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?
>
> >Indeed. I've got a 2012 Leaf and a 2013 Leaf. Neither shows much battery
> >degradation but the 2012 gets about 30-40 miles range in Winter and the
> >2013 about 40-45 miles range.
> >
> >On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 6:16 PM Ken Olum via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> >>  Here is a data point about Leaf batteries at cold temperatures.  We
> >>  drove 40 miles, about 40% at highway speeds, with an outside
> temperature
> >>  of 40F.  This took the pack from 100% to 29%.  Extrapolating gives an
> >>  all-out range in these conditions of 57 miles.  This is a 2015 24kW
> pack
> >>  with something like 95K miles, the last 8K in our 2013 Leaf.  It has 11
> >>  out of 12 battery health bars left.
> >>
> >>  Ken
> >>  ___
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> >>
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Alright. So, it seems safe to assume that a 2011 leaf with a replaced 
battery will still get about 50-60% range in cold weather, regardless of 
battery type. However, it also seems that the degradation will be much 
slower with a lizard battery.


Any further comments ?

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
To: "Collin Kidder via EV" 
Cc: "Lee Hart" 
Sent: 01-Dec-22 11:00:13
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?


Collin Kidder via EV wrote:

Indeed. I've got a 2012 Leaf and a 2013 Leaf. Neither shows much battery
degradation but the 2012 gets about 30-40 miles range in Winter and the
2013 about 40-45 miles range.


We have a 2013 Leaf with about 48k miles on it. Range in the summer is still 
about 90 miles, but drops to 40 miles in below-zero weather.

The 2013 has a battery heater. Does the 2012? Could this account for the 
difference between the 2012 and 2013?

The heater is pretty wimpy. It doesn't come on until about 10 deg.F, by which time, 
the range is already seriously reduced. I wonder if it can be improved? In my 
lead-acid days, 1" of styrafoam and 200w of heat was enough to keep the 
batteries warm no matter how cold it got, so winter range was only impacted by road 
conditions, thicker oils, and use of cabin heat.

Lee Hart
-- "#3 pencils and quadrille pads." -- Seymour Cray, when asked
what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Lee Hart via EV]

Collin Kidder via EV wrote:

Indeed. I've got a 2012 Leaf and a 2013 Leaf. Neither shows much battery
degradation but the 2012 gets about 30-40 miles range in Winter and the
2013 about 40-45 miles range.


We have a 2013 Leaf with about 48k miles on it. Range in the summer is 
still about 90 miles, but drops to 40 miles in below-zero weather.


The 2013 has a battery heater. Does the 2012? Could this account for the 
difference between the 2012 and 2013?


The heater is pretty wimpy. It doesn't come on until about 10 deg.F, by 
which time, the range is already seriously reduced. I wonder if it can 
be improved? In my lead-acid days, 1" of styrafoam and 200w of heat was 
enough to keep the batteries warm no matter how cold it got, so winter 
range was only impacted by road conditions, thicker oils, and use of 
cabin heat.


Lee Hart
--
"#3 pencils and quadrille pads." -- Seymour Cray, when asked
what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Of note, Nissan added a heat-pump to the 2013 and improved the HVAC
controls to allow control of the heater.  On 2011-2012, the heater would
turn on and pre-heat the coolant loop regardless of setting unless you
completely turned the whole HVAC off.  (Which quickly results in fogged
windows, so not really an option)

On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 8:16 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> Ok, good to know. So that appears to show that the "lizard" battery
> performs better in cold weather than the original battery. I presume
> both are 24kWh batteries. Do you have warm weather range numbers to
> compare to ?
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Collin Kidder via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "Collin Kidder" 
> Sent: 01-Dec-22 06:52:28
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?
>
> >Indeed. I've got a 2012 Leaf and a 2013 Leaf. Neither shows much battery
> >degradation but the 2012 gets about 30-40 miles range in Winter and the
> >2013 about 40-45 miles range.
> >
> >On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 6:16 PM Ken Olum via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> >>  Here is a data point about Leaf batteries at cold temperatures.  We
> >>  drove 40 miles, about 40% at highway speeds, with an outside
> temperature
> >>  of 40F.  This took the pack from 100% to 29%.  Extrapolating gives an
> >>  all-out range in these conditions of 57 miles.  This is a 2015 24kW
> pack
> >>  with something like 95K miles, the last 8K in our 2013 Leaf.  It has 11
> >>  out of 12 battery health bars left.
> >>
> >>  Ken
> >>  ___
> >>  Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> >>  No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> >>  HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> >>
> >>
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Ok, good to know. So that appears to show that the "lizard" battery 
performs better in cold weather than the original battery. I presume 
both are 24kWh batteries. Do you have warm weather range numbers to 
compare to ?


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Collin Kidder via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Collin Kidder" 
Sent: 01-Dec-22 06:52:28
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?


Indeed. I've got a 2012 Leaf and a 2013 Leaf. Neither shows much battery
degradation but the 2012 gets about 30-40 miles range in Winter and the
2013 about 40-45 miles range.

On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 6:16 PM Ken Olum via EV  wrote:


 Here is a data point about Leaf batteries at cold temperatures.  We
 drove 40 miles, about 40% at highway speeds, with an outside temperature
 of 40F.  This took the pack from 100% to 29%.  Extrapolating gives an
 all-out range in these conditions of 57 miles.  This is a 2015 24kW pack
 with something like 95K miles, the last 8K in our 2013 Leaf.  It has 11
 out of 12 battery health bars left.

 Ken
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Collin Kidder via EV]

Indeed. I've got a 2012 Leaf and a 2013 Leaf. Neither shows much battery
degradation but the 2012 gets about 30-40 miles range in Winter and the
2013 about 40-45 miles range.

On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 6:16 PM Ken Olum via EV  wrote:

> Here is a data point about Leaf batteries at cold temperatures.  We
> drove 40 miles, about 40% at highway speeds, with an outside temperature
> of 40F.  This took the pack from 100% to 29%.  Extrapolating gives an
> all-out range in these conditions of 57 miles.  This is a 2015 24kW pack
> with something like 95K miles, the last 8K in our 2013 Leaf.  It has 11
> out of 12 battery health bars left.
>
> Ken
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Ken Olum via EV]

Here is a data point about Leaf batteries at cold temperatures.  We
drove 40 miles, about 40% at highway speeds, with an outside temperature
of 40F.  This took the pack from 100% to 29%.  Extrapolating gives an
all-out range in these conditions of 57 miles.  This is a 2015 24kW pack
with something like 95K miles, the last 8K in our 2013 Leaf.  It has 11
out of 12 battery health bars left.

Ken
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Jay Summet via EV]

I've heard only good things about the 40kwh batteries.

The 30 kwh batteries may degrade faster than the 24kwh (lizard) packs 
(but they have more capacity to start with, so it may be a wash overall?)


Jay

On 11/17/22 22:59, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
So, should I stick to the "lizard" battery, which apparently was 24kWh 
and supplied with the 2015-16 models, or any battery 2015+ ? If I keep 
the leaf, I want to incur minimal expense because I do want to replace 
it with something better.


I could buy a Bolt, but it's not really the car I want, either. I need 
to haul materials sometimes and also need better ground clearance. I'm 
looking at the WV Buzz but there still isn't enough info about the 
upcoming US model. Other stuff will come on the market in the next few 
years, too. So, I'm leaning to hanging on to the leaf for a 2-3 more years.


The leaf is adequate in summer (typ 60-80F) but is really limited now, 
with temps in the 30-40F range this time of year. Last year, I got only 
20 mile range during our cold snap, between 20-30F daytime.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Ed Blackmond via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Ed Blackmond" 
Sent: 17-Nov-22 19:47:25
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

If you can afford it, I would recommend getting  a Bolt. A new one is 
still less than 30K and as far as battery wear is concerned, they are 
all new now.  GM replaced all the battery packs.


Then sell your Leaf to someone who will use it to replace an ICE 
commuter vehicle and upgrade the battery pack. This will put two EVs 
on the road instead of one.  You can even provide them with all the 
info you have found on replacing the pack.


Ed

 On Nov 17, 2022, at 7:21 PM, Jay Summet via EV  
wrote:


 I have a 2015 leaf, 60k miles, 11 capacity bars (but likely to drop 
to 10 soon).  I drive it relatively economically and get 4-4.8 miles 
per kwh for a real world range of 80-90 miles still at 35-45mph 
speeds. (less on freeways of course)


 I'm in Florida, and almost never see freezing temperatures. (Or 
temps above 100 like in Arizona) So not quite as temperate as 
parts of the pacific northwest, but not horribly bad for battery 
longevity.


 I think if you got a 2015+ replacement battery with 11 bars it would 
probably give your Leaf quite a bit more life.


 Jay


 On 11/17/22 18:41, George Tyler via EV wrote:
 I also have a 2013, original battery was 10 bars when I bought it 
in 2019,
 done 25K km since then, battery dropped to 7 bars this year. I 
found another
 2013 battery with 10 bars, had dome more kms than mine. So far it's 
still at
 10 bars. Here in NZ 2013 is the worst for battery degradation, 
almost every
 leaf for sale cheap is 2013, but some are still at 11 bars. I don't 
know how

 to tell if it's a lizard though.
 -Original Message-
 From: EV On Behalf Of Ken Olum via EV
 Sent: Friday, 18 November 2022 4:47 am
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Cc: Ken Olum 
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?
    From: "Peri Hartman" 
    Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 02:12:45 +
    How do the "lizard" batteries perform in cold weather?
 I haven't paid careful attention to ours, but there was certainly 
not some

 huge problem in the cold.
    Regardless of range, you're saying the lizard battery won't 
degrade as

    quickly ?
 Yes.  At 95K miles or so, I think our original 2013 battery was 
down to

 7 (maybe 6) bars of battery health out of 12.  We replaced it with a
 2015 battery which had 11 bars even though it had 85K miles or so.  
7000

 miles later, it is still at 11.
    My experience with the OEM battery is roughly 50% range at 25F 
versus

    70F.
 This is pretty terrible.  When we had cars with lead-acid batteries 
we saw
 this level of temperature sensitivity, but it shouldn't be so much 
with
 lithium.  Was it this bad originally or only after your battery got 
old?  Is

 it often 25F in Seattle?
    If I buy a used lizard that has, say 60 mile range at 70F, what 
can I

    expect at 25F ?
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Peri Hartman via EV]

So, should I stick to the "lizard" battery, which apparently was 24kWh 
and supplied with the 2015-16 models, or any battery 2015+ ? If I keep 
the leaf, I want to incur minimal expense because I do want to replace 
it with something better.


I could buy a Bolt, but it's not really the car I want, either. I need 
to haul materials sometimes and also need better ground clearance. I'm 
looking at the WV Buzz but there still isn't enough info about the 
upcoming US model. Other stuff will come on the market in the next few 
years, too. So, I'm leaning to hanging on to the leaf for a 2-3 more 
years.


The leaf is adequate in summer (typ 60-80F) but is really limited now, 
with temps in the 30-40F range this time of year. Last year, I got only 
20 mile range during our cold snap, between 20-30F daytime.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Ed Blackmond via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Ed Blackmond" 
Sent: 17-Nov-22 19:47:25
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?


If you can afford it, I would recommend getting  a Bolt. A new one is still 
less than 30K and as far as battery wear is concerned, they are all new now.  
GM replaced all the battery packs.

Then sell your Leaf to someone who will use it to replace an ICE commuter 
vehicle and upgrade the battery pack. This will put two EVs on the road instead 
of one.  You can even provide them with all the info you have found on 
replacing the pack.

Ed


 On Nov 17, 2022, at 7:21 PM, Jay Summet via EV  wrote:

 I have a 2015 leaf, 60k miles, 11 capacity bars (but likely to drop to 10 
soon).  I drive it relatively economically and get 4-4.8 miles per kwh for a 
real world range of 80-90 miles still at 35-45mph speeds. (less on freeways of 
course)

 I'm in Florida, and almost never see freezing temperatures. (Or temps above 
100 like in Arizona) So not quite as temperate as parts of the pacific 
northwest, but not horribly bad for battery longevity.

 I think if you got a 2015+ replacement battery with 11 bars it would probably 
give your Leaf quite a bit more life.

 Jay


 On 11/17/22 18:41, George Tyler via EV wrote:
 I also have a 2013, original battery was 10 bars when I bought it in 2019,
 done 25K km since then, battery dropped to 7 bars this year. I found another
 2013 battery with 10 bars, had dome more kms than mine. So far it's still at
 10 bars. Here in NZ 2013 is the worst for battery degradation, almost every
 leaf for sale cheap is 2013, but some are still at 11 bars. I don't know how
 to tell if it's a lizard though.
 -Original Message-
 From: EV On Behalf Of Ken Olum via EV
 Sent: Friday, 18 November 2022 4:47 am
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Cc: Ken Olum 
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?
From: "Peri Hartman" 
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 02:12:45 +
How do the "lizard" batteries perform in cold weather?
 I haven't paid careful attention to ours, but there was certainly not some
 huge problem in the cold.
Regardless of range, you're saying the lizard battery won't degrade as
quickly ?
 Yes.  At 95K miles or so, I think our original 2013 battery was down to
 7 (maybe 6) bars of battery health out of 12.  We replaced it with a
 2015 battery which had 11 bars even though it had 85K miles or so.  7000
 miles later, it is still at 11.
My experience with the OEM battery is roughly 50% range at 25F versus
70F.
 This is pretty terrible.  When we had cars with lead-acid batteries we saw
 this level of temperature sensitivity, but it shouldn't be so much with
 lithium.  Was it this bad originally or only after your battery got old?  Is
 it often 25F in Seattle?
If I buy a used lizard that has, say 60 mile range at 70F, what can I
expect at 25F ?
 ___
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Ed Blackmond via EV]

If you can afford it, I would recommend getting  a Bolt. A new one is still 
less than 30K and as far as battery wear is concerned, they are all new now.  
GM replaced all the battery packs.

Then sell your Leaf to someone who will use it to replace an ICE commuter 
vehicle and upgrade the battery pack. This will put two EVs on the road instead 
of one.  You can even provide them with all the info you have found on 
replacing the pack.

Ed

> On Nov 17, 2022, at 7:21 PM, Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
> 
> I have a 2015 leaf, 60k miles, 11 capacity bars (but likely to drop to 10 
> soon).  I drive it relatively economically and get 4-4.8 miles per kwh for a 
> real world range of 80-90 miles still at 35-45mph speeds. (less on freeways 
> of course)
> 
> I'm in Florida, and almost never see freezing temperatures. (Or temps above 
> 100 like in Arizona) So not quite as temperate as parts of the pacific 
> northwest, but not horribly bad for battery longevity.
> 
> I think if you got a 2015+ replacement battery with 11 bars it would probably 
> give your Leaf quite a bit more life.
> 
> Jay
> 
>> On 11/17/22 18:41, George Tyler via EV wrote:
>> I also have a 2013, original battery was 10 bars when I bought it in 2019,
>> done 25K km since then, battery dropped to 7 bars this year. I found another
>> 2013 battery with 10 bars, had dome more kms than mine. So far it's still at
>> 10 bars. Here in NZ 2013 is the worst for battery degradation, almost every
>> leaf for sale cheap is 2013, but some are still at 11 bars. I don't know how
>> to tell if it's a lizard though.
>> -Original Message-
>> From: EV On Behalf Of Ken Olum via EV
>> Sent: Friday, 18 November 2022 4:47 am
>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>> Cc: Ken Olum 
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?
>>From: "Peri Hartman" 
>>Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 02:12:45 +
>>How do the "lizard" batteries perform in cold weather?
>> I haven't paid careful attention to ours, but there was certainly not some
>> huge problem in the cold.
>>Regardless of range, you're saying the lizard battery won't degrade as
>>quickly ?
>> Yes.  At 95K miles or so, I think our original 2013 battery was down to
>> 7 (maybe 6) bars of battery health out of 12.  We replaced it with a
>> 2015 battery which had 11 bars even though it had 85K miles or so.  7000
>> miles later, it is still at 11.
>>My experience with the OEM battery is roughly 50% range at 25F versus
>>70F.
>> This is pretty terrible.  When we had cars with lead-acid batteries we saw
>> this level of temperature sensitivity, but it shouldn't be so much with
>> lithium.  Was it this bad originally or only after your battery got old?  Is
>> it often 25F in Seattle?
>>If I buy a used lizard that has, say 60 mile range at 70F, what can I
>>expect at 25F ?
>> ___
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> 

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Jay Summet via EV]

I have a 2015 leaf, 60k miles, 11 capacity bars (but likely to drop to 
10 soon).  I drive it relatively economically and get 4-4.8 miles per 
kwh for a real world range of 80-90 miles still at 35-45mph speeds. 
(less on freeways of course)


I'm in Florida, and almost never see freezing temperatures. (Or temps 
above 100 like in Arizona) So not quite as temperate as parts of the 
pacific northwest, but not horribly bad for battery longevity.


I think if you got a 2015+ replacement battery with 11 bars it would 
probably give your Leaf quite a bit more life.


Jay

On 11/17/22 18:41, George Tyler via EV wrote:

I also have a 2013, original battery was 10 bars when I bought it in 2019,
done 25K km since then, battery dropped to 7 bars this year. I found another
2013 battery with 10 bars, had dome more kms than mine. So far it's still at
10 bars. Here in NZ 2013 is the worst for battery degradation, almost every
leaf for sale cheap is 2013, but some are still at 11 bars. I don't know how
to tell if it's a lizard though.

-Original Message-
From: EV On Behalf Of Ken Olum via EV
Sent: Friday, 18 November 2022 4:47 am
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Ken Olum 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

From: "Peri Hartman" 
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 02:12:45 +

How do the "lizard" batteries perform in cold weather?

I haven't paid careful attention to ours, but there was certainly not some
huge problem in the cold.

Regardless of range, you're saying the lizard battery won't degrade as
quickly ?

Yes.  At 95K miles or so, I think our original 2013 battery was down to
7 (maybe 6) bars of battery health out of 12.  We replaced it with a
2015 battery which had 11 bars even though it had 85K miles or so.  7000
miles later, it is still at 11.

My experience with the OEM battery is roughly 50% range at 25F versus
70F.

This is pretty terrible.  When we had cars with lead-acid batteries we saw
this level of temperature sensitivity, but it shouldn't be so much with
lithium.  Was it this bad originally or only after your battery got old?  Is
it often 25F in Seattle?

If I buy a used lizard that has, say 60 mile range at 70F, what can I
expect at 25F ?


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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[George Tyler via EV]

I also have a 2013, original battery was 10 bars when I bought it in 2019,
done 25K km since then, battery dropped to 7 bars this year. I found another
2013 battery with 10 bars, had dome more kms than mine. So far it's still at
10 bars. Here in NZ 2013 is the worst for battery degradation, almost every
leaf for sale cheap is 2013, but some are still at 11 bars. I don't know how
to tell if it's a lizard though.

-Original Message-
From: EV On Behalf Of Ken Olum via EV
Sent: Friday, 18 November 2022 4:47 am
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Ken Olum 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

   From: "Peri Hartman" 
   Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 02:12:45 +

   How do the "lizard" batteries perform in cold weather?

I haven't paid careful attention to ours, but there was certainly not some
huge problem in the cold.

   Regardless of range, you're saying the lizard battery won't degrade as 
   quickly ?

Yes.  At 95K miles or so, I think our original 2013 battery was down to
7 (maybe 6) bars of battery health out of 12.  We replaced it with a
2015 battery which had 11 bars even though it had 85K miles or so.  7000
miles later, it is still at 11.

   My experience with the OEM battery is roughly 50% range at 25F versus
   70F. 

This is pretty terrible.  When we had cars with lead-acid batteries we saw
this level of temperature sensitivity, but it shouldn't be so much with
lithium.  Was it this bad originally or only after your battery got old?  Is
it often 25F in Seattle?

   If I buy a used lizard that has, say 60 mile range at 70F, what can I 
   expect at 25F ?


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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Peri Hartman via EV]

That's great info, Ken.

It sounds like the 24kWh lizzard battery is a really good choice. Do you 
have more information about cold weather range ?


No, Seattle doesn't get 25F days very often. But last winter we had 
about a week with temps below freezing. Even during daylight hours 
(don't know what the actual temp was), I was able to do about 10 miles 
of driving, watching the consumption bars drop from 12 down to about 2. 
The capacity bars were 8.


So, in my question, I arbitrarily picked 25F but any benchmarks you have 
would be helpful


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Ken Olum via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Ken Olum" 
Sent: 17-Nov-22 07:46:52
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?


   From: "Peri Hartman" 
   Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 02:12:45 +

   How do the "lizard" batteries perform in cold weather?

I haven't paid careful attention to ours, but there was certainly not
some huge problem in the cold.

   Regardless of range, you're saying the lizard battery won't degrade as
   quickly ?

Yes.  At 95K miles or so, I think our original 2013 battery was down to
7 (maybe 6) bars of battery health out of 12.  We replaced it with a
2015 battery which had 11 bars even though it had 85K miles or so.  7000
miles later, it is still at 11.

   My experience with the OEM battery is roughly 50% range at 25F versus
   70F.

This is pretty terrible.  When we had cars with lead-acid batteries we
saw this level of temperature sensitivity, but it shouldn't be so much
with lithium.  Was it this bad originally or only after your battery got
old?  Is it often 25F in Seattle?

   If I buy a used lizard that has, say 60 mile range at 70F, what can I
   expect at 25F ?

Do you want 60 miles at highway speeds or in city driving?  The Leaf is
quite a lot worse on the highway.  Nevertheless we drove ours 66 miles
of pure highway driving with no range anxiety immediately after getting
the battery replaced.  That was February in Massachusetts, so I'm sure
it wasn't 70F, but it wasn't 25F either.

The way this worked for us is that we signed up with the shop to be
notified when a battery was available.  You are entirely dependent on
someone getting in an accident that totals their car but doesn't damage
the battery.  The shop called us, told us what they had, and gave us a
few days to decide whether we wanted it.  So you can wait for a
less-used battery (presumably with a higher price) if you want.

Ken
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Ken Olum via EV]

   From: "Peri Hartman" 
   Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 02:12:45 +

   How do the "lizard" batteries perform in cold weather?

I haven't paid careful attention to ours, but there was certainly not
some huge problem in the cold.

   Regardless of range, you're saying the lizard battery won't degrade as 
   quickly ?

Yes.  At 95K miles or so, I think our original 2013 battery was down to
7 (maybe 6) bars of battery health out of 12.  We replaced it with a
2015 battery which had 11 bars even though it had 85K miles or so.  7000
miles later, it is still at 11.

   My experience with the OEM battery is roughly 50% range at 25F versus
   70F. 

This is pretty terrible.  When we had cars with lead-acid batteries we
saw this level of temperature sensitivity, but it shouldn't be so much
with lithium.  Was it this bad originally or only after your battery got
old?  Is it often 25F in Seattle?

   If I buy a used lizard that has, say 60 mile range at 70F, what can I 
   expect at 25F ?

Do you want 60 miles at highway speeds or in city driving?  The Leaf is
quite a lot worse on the highway.  Nevertheless we drove ours 66 miles
of pure highway driving with no range anxiety immediately after getting
the battery replaced.  That was February in Massachusetts, so I'm sure
it wasn't 70F, but it wasn't 25F either.

The way this worked for us is that we signed up with the shop to be
notified when a battery was available.  You are entirely dependent on
someone getting in an accident that totals their car but doesn't damage
the battery.  The shop called us, told us what they had, and gave us a
few days to decide whether we wanted it.  So you can wait for a
less-used battery (presumably with a higher price) if you want.

Ken
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[(-Phil-) via EV]

I just stumbled on this, I don't know anything other than what you can see
on the website, and  I have no relationship with them:
https://evsenhanced.com/aftermarket-battery/

On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 7:07 AM Rod Hower via EV  wrote:

> Greentec auto replaced the battery in my 2000 Honda Insight and did an
> awesome job.  I now have 8k miles since January.  They specialize in hybrid
> battery replacement but they also sell full EV batteries.  You may want to
> ask if they will do a battery swap.
> https://www.greentecauto.com/product-tag/nissan-leaf
> They have a shop in Seattle
> SEATTLE, WA
> 1721 W Valley Hwy N, Unit 8
> Auburn, WA 98001
> Mon-Fri: 8:00am-5:00pm PST
> Request more information by using our contact form or call 800-773-6614.
>
> On Sun, Nov 13, 2022 at 9:13 PM Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > How do the "lizard" batteries perform in cold weather ? It's my
> > understanding they were produced to solve the "phoenix" problem, which
> > doesn't apply to seattle.
> >
> > Regardless of range, you're saying the lizard battery won't degrade as
> > quickly ?
> >
> > I'd like to get about 60 mile range in 25F degree weather (arbitrary,
> > and I can be flexible, but at some point it isn't worth it). My
> > experience with the OEM battery is roughly 50% range at 25F versus 70F.
> > If I buy a used lizard that has, say 60 mile range at 70F, what can I
> > expect at 25F ?
> >
> > (By the way, I'm scouring the Internet in parallel, but the comments on
> > this list are very helpful.)
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Peri
> >
> > << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> >
> > -- Original Message --
> > From: "Ken Olum via EV" 
> > To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> > Cc: "Ken Olum" 
> > Sent: 13-Nov-22 14:18:54
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?
> >
> > >We had the battery in our 2013 Leaf replaced with a 2015 24 kWh battery
> > >by Leo & Sons in Lawrence, MA.  We are very happy with the result.  They
> > >charged us $4600.  We didn't have to do anything but drop off the car
> > >and pick it up later.
> > >
> > >I wouldn't recommend a 30 kWh battery.  The newer 24 kWh "lizard"
> > >batteries have much better calendar life than the 30 kWh ones, so when
> > >you're getting an old battery from a crashed car, you might well get
> > >more range from a 24 kWh.  See
> > >https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/201803.0122/v1
> > >
> > > Ken
> > >___
> > >Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> > >No other addresses in TO and CC fields
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> > >
> >
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Rod Hower via EV]

Greentec auto replaced the battery in my 2000 Honda Insight and did an
awesome job.  I now have 8k miles since January.  They specialize in hybrid
battery replacement but they also sell full EV batteries.  You may want to
ask if they will do a battery swap.
https://www.greentecauto.com/product-tag/nissan-leaf
They have a shop in Seattle
SEATTLE, WA
1721 W Valley Hwy N, Unit 8
Auburn, WA 98001
Mon-Fri: 8:00am-5:00pm PST
Request more information by using our contact form or call 800-773-6614.

On Sun, Nov 13, 2022 at 9:13 PM Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> How do the "lizard" batteries perform in cold weather ? It's my
> understanding they were produced to solve the "phoenix" problem, which
> doesn't apply to seattle.
>
> Regardless of range, you're saying the lizard battery won't degrade as
> quickly ?
>
> I'd like to get about 60 mile range in 25F degree weather (arbitrary,
> and I can be flexible, but at some point it isn't worth it). My
> experience with the OEM battery is roughly 50% range at 25F versus 70F.
> If I buy a used lizard that has, say 60 mile range at 70F, what can I
> expect at 25F ?
>
> (By the way, I'm scouring the Internet in parallel, but the comments on
> this list are very helpful.)
>
> Thanks,
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Ken Olum via EV" 
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: "Ken Olum" 
> Sent: 13-Nov-22 14:18:54
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?
>
> >We had the battery in our 2013 Leaf replaced with a 2015 24 kWh battery
> >by Leo & Sons in Lawrence, MA.  We are very happy with the result.  They
> >charged us $4600.  We didn't have to do anything but drop off the car
> >and pick it up later.
> >
> >I wouldn't recommend a 30 kWh battery.  The newer 24 kWh "lizard"
> >batteries have much better calendar life than the 30 kWh ones, so when
> >you're getting an old battery from a crashed car, you might well get
> >more range from a 24 kWh.  See
> >https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/201803.0122/v1
> >
> > Ken
> >___
> >Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> >No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> >HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> >
>
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Peri Hartman via EV]

How do the "lizard" batteries perform in cold weather ? It's my 
understanding they were produced to solve the "phoenix" problem, which 
doesn't apply to seattle.


Regardless of range, you're saying the lizard battery won't degrade as 
quickly ?


I'd like to get about 60 mile range in 25F degree weather (arbitrary, 
and I can be flexible, but at some point it isn't worth it). My 
experience with the OEM battery is roughly 50% range at 25F versus 70F. 
If I buy a used lizard that has, say 60 mile range at 70F, what can I 
expect at 25F ?


(By the way, I'm scouring the Internet in parallel, but the comments on 
this list are very helpful.)


Thanks,
Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Ken Olum via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Ken Olum" 
Sent: 13-Nov-22 14:18:54
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?


We had the battery in our 2013 Leaf replaced with a 2015 24 kWh battery
by Leo & Sons in Lawrence, MA.  We are very happy with the result.  They
charged us $4600.  We didn't have to do anything but drop off the car
and pick it up later.

I wouldn't recommend a 30 kWh battery.  The newer 24 kWh "lizard"
batteries have much better calendar life than the 30 kWh ones, so when
you're getting an old battery from a crashed car, you might well get
more range from a 24 kWh.  See
https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/201803.0122/v1

Ken
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 12 Nov 2022 at 20:12, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

> I put a 62kWh pack from a 2019 into my 2012 Leaf. Took one afternoon with
> simple tools, like 2 axle stands and 1 hydraulic floor jack and a ratchet
> wrench.

Check it out here:

http://evdl.org/pages/leafbattswap.html

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 Then there was the lovable fully-armored Renfair performer 
 who insisted on showing everyone his artistic photography, 
 just so he could hear them say "Good prints, sweet knight." 

   -- Anonymous 
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Ken Olum via EV]

We had the battery in our 2013 Leaf replaced with a 2015 24 kWh battery
by Leo & Sons in Lawrence, MA.  We are very happy with the result.  They
charged us $4600.  We didn't have to do anything but drop off the car
and pick it up later.

I wouldn't recommend a 30 kWh battery.  The newer 24 kWh "lizard"
batteries have much better calendar life than the 30 kWh ones, so when
you're getting an old battery from a crashed car, you might well get
more range from a 24 kWh.  See 
https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/201803.0122/v1

Ken
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I remember you writing about that. That may be an excellent option for 
me.


If I take this option, I probably don't need the 62kWh, as I can't sit 
in the Leaf that long. I find the seats horribly uncomfortable. But just 
knowing you did it means, I hope, I could lean on you for advice in the 
process. 30kWh is probably sufficient.


First step, for me, is to research the price. Any advice on how to 
search for a used 30kWh battery ?


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Cor van de Water" 
Sent: 12-Nov-22 20:12:58
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?


I put a 62kWh pack from a 2019 into my 2012 Leaf. Took one afternoon with
simple tools, like 2 axle stands and 1 hydraulic floor jack and a ratchet
wrench.

If you can find a pack you would be happy with, then I can provide advice
how to do this.
Most important part, currently unavailable, is the CANbridge from Dala in
Finland.
Become Patreon supporter of his if you want to be in front of the queue
once he gets a new supply of CAN interface chips. Also very helpful Disqus
channel.
Cor.

On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 4:13 PM Jay Summet via EV  wrote:




 On 11/12/22 12:38, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
 Regardless, that's
 > a huge spread from, say, $5k, to replace a leaf battery.
 >

 My estimate would be 4-7k for a salvage 30 kwh pack + 2-3k labor, so I
 think your 5k hope is a bit low.

 Shifting a 30kwh to a 2011 requires special adapter cables as well as
 the man in the middle can adapter, so it's slightly more involved than
 putting it into a 2013+ model, but still not an overly complicated
 endeavor.

 In addition to EV rides, you may also consider the Canadian option:
 Precision Auto Service Ltd
 22575 Fraser Hwy # 101, Langley, British Columbia V2Z2T5, Canada
 Electric Vehicle EV Service and Repair, Ask for Scott Waddle

   (found here: https://nissanleafbatteryreplacement.com/ )



 Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I put a 62kWh pack from a 2019 into my 2012 Leaf. Took one afternoon with
simple tools, like 2 axle stands and 1 hydraulic floor jack and a ratchet
wrench.

If you can find a pack you would be happy with, then I can provide advice
how to do this.
Most important part, currently unavailable, is the CANbridge from Dala in
Finland.
Become Patreon supporter of his if you want to be in front of the queue
once he gets a new supply of CAN interface chips. Also very helpful Disqus
channel.
Cor.

On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 4:13 PM Jay Summet via EV  wrote:

>
>
> On 11/12/22 12:38, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> Regardless, that's
> > a huge spread from, say, $5k, to replace a leaf battery.
> >
>
> My estimate would be 4-7k for a salvage 30 kwh pack + 2-3k labor, so I
> think your 5k hope is a bit low.
>
> Shifting a 30kwh to a 2011 requires special adapter cables as well as
> the man in the middle can adapter, so it's slightly more involved than
> putting it into a 2013+ model, but still not an overly complicated
> endeavor.
>
> In addition to EV rides, you may also consider the Canadian option:
> Precision Auto Service Ltd
> 22575 Fraser Hwy # 101, Langley, British Columbia V2Z2T5, Canada
> Electric Vehicle EV Service and Repair, Ask for Scott Waddle
>
>   (found here: https://nissanleafbatteryreplacement.com/ )
>
>
>
> Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Jay Summet via EV]

On 11/12/22 12:38, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
Regardless, that's

a huge spread from, say, $5k, to replace a leaf battery.



My estimate would be 4-7k for a salvage 30 kwh pack + 2-3k labor, so I 
think your 5k hope is a bit low.


Shifting a 30kwh to a 2011 requires special adapter cables as well as 
the man in the middle can adapter, so it's slightly more involved than 
putting it into a 2013+ model, but still not an overly complicated 
endeavor.


In addition to EV rides, you may also consider the Canadian option:
Precision Auto Service Ltd
22575 Fraser Hwy # 101, Langley, British Columbia V2Z2T5, Canada
Electric Vehicle EV Service and Repair, Ask for Scott Waddle

 (found here: https://nissanleafbatteryreplacement.com/ )



Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Ed Blackmond via EV]

I think you are being a little bit pessimistic. I have a 2017 Bolt. In August I 
had the recall replacement battery installed. I charged it to full overnight 
and took it for an out and back ride. I drove it 253 miles using 59.3Kwh (both 
using the on-board instrumentation). I mostly drove at 65mph (again using 
on-board instrumentation) using cruise control.

Obviously, driving 65mph doesn’t degrade an expectation of 250 mile range.  
70mph might have some degradation, but I don’t think it will be as much as you 
claim. I do not know (and probably never will) how much cold weather will 
affect range.

I think if you don’t really want to purchase an EV like the Bolt, you can 
invent plenty of issues to back your decision.  It won’t be long before EVs are 
even better than the Bolt, maybe not for the price, but I’m sure at that time 
the bar can be raised again so these new vehicles will not be acceptable either.

I struggled for a long time (I had an EVPlus not an EV1, but was still annoyed 
at GM) before getting rid of my 2011 Leaf and buying the Bolt. The Leaf still 
met my needs, but I wanted to do what I could to demonstrate a market for such 
a vehicle.

Ed

> On Nov 12, 2022, at 12:10 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> Practical ... let's see.
> 
> At 32F, I'm assuming the bolt will get about 10% less range (I found a few 
> reports and that seems to be a reasonable guess). At 70mph, take off another 
> 20%. That means a 250 mile battery becomes 175 miles. Keep a buffer of 25 
> miles so that one doesn't get range anxiety, that's 150 miles. And that's not 
> counting battery degregation.
> 
> So, 150 miles at 70 mph is a about 2h15 hours. Let's say 2h30 just for 
> allowances. So, with one charge, you could travel 150 + 80% * 150 = 270 
> miles. That trip would take 2h30 + 1h20 + 80% * 2h30 = 5h50. I can accept 
> that.
> 
> But now let's say I want to go 300 miles. I need another charge to go another 
> 30 miles. That would be a stop for 30/150 miles * 1h20 = 15 minutes, assuming 
> charge times are linear (they aren't). So, 300 miles would take
> 5h50 + 0h15 + 30/70mph = approx 6h30.
> 
> Normally, I would make only one stop for about an hour for a trip of 300 
> miles. Using the same metric as above, 150 miles in 2h30, that would be 5 
> hours + 1 hour rest = 6 hours. I guess that's really not too bad - only 30 
> minutes longer.
> 
> Ok, the bolt EV is worth a consideration. And, of course, in better weather, 
> that second stop for 300 miles goes away, at least while the battery is new.
> 
> Peri
> 
> 
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "EV List Lackey via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "EV List Lackey" 
> Sent: 12-Nov-22 10:20:54
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?
> 
>>> On 12 Nov 2022 at 16:37, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>>> 
>>> The Bolt EV is close, but I think it's charge time is about 1h 20, which 
>>> makes
>>> it impractical for road trips.
>> 
>> I guess that would depend on your definition of "practical," and how long
>> the trip is, and thus how many charging sessions are required.  When last I
>> looked, the Bolt's price - under $26k! - was tough to pass up.  That is just
>> astounding for a 259 mile range.  The difference between that and, say, a
>> Tesla 3, would buy a heck of a lot of road trip ICEV rentals.
>> 
>> As for waiting for something better, yeah, that's a strategy.  It depends
>> though on what you want.  You'd need to be OK with expensive SUVs and
>> crossovers, because that's just about all the automakers seem to be
>> introducing and have plans to introduce.  They don't want to sell small,
>> practical, reasonably-priced EVs any more than they want to sell small,
>> practical, reasonably-priced ICEVs.
>> 
>> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>> 
>> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
>> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>> 
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> I found one day in school a boy of medium size ill-treating
>> a smaller boy. I expostulated, but he replied: "The bigs hit
>> me, so I hit the babies; that's fair." In these words he
>> epitomized the history of the human race.
>> 
>>-- Bertrand Russell, "Education and the Social Order"
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I'm not a facebook member, so if you are, would you do a search for 
places in greater seattle ? If you don't have time, that's fine.

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Sal Cameli" 
To: "Dex's Chris" 
Cc: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" ; "Peri 
Hartman" 

Sent: 12-Nov-22 11:26:52
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?


I’m sorry but all did was make a website and a Facebook group.



I don’t sell batteries,  I don’t install batteries



I’m in IT Consultant.



Go to the website and zoom in to where you live and look for the 
installation locations that are closest to you,  they may be states 
away,




click on the little icon and get their information and contact them and 
ask them for some quotes.






https://www.NissanLEAFbatteryReplacement.com/



Also check out the Facebook group.



https://www.facebook.com/groups/LEAFs/?ref=share_group_link






Thanks,

Sal


Sal Cameli
CAMELI IT SERVICES, LLC.
email: s...@cameli.us
backup email: scam...@gmail.com
New iPhone: (646) 647-5262 (Text me here for a faster response)
Old iPhone: 646-901-4778
Work website: cameli.biz
About me website: salcameli.com





On Nov 12, 2022, at 2:09 PM, Dex's Chris  wrote:


https://nissanleafbatteryreplacement.com/

On Sat, Nov 12, 2022 at 10:39 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:

Does anyone know if there are people or shops willing to do a battery
replacement for a 2011 leaf in the greater seattle area ?

The range in my Leaf was a dismal 20 miles in our sub zero weather 
last

winter. It certainly isn't going to be any better this winter :)

I've been looking to simply buy a new EV, which may make the most 
sense,
but am not finding anything that meets my needs and isn't too 
expensive.
I'd like something I can take on modest road trips, which means I 
would
want a reasonably fast L3 recharge from 10% to 80%, like 30 minutes. 
And

not over $40k including tax, etc.

The Bolt EV is close, but I think it's charge time is about 1h 20, 
which

makes it impractical for road trips. There are several models, e.g.
Kona, which I think are a bit over $40k all costs included that 
charge
in, perhaps 40 minutes (probably acceptable). But another option 
could
be to extend the life of my leaf and see what options are on the 
market

in 2-3 years. I need to look at that before making a decision.

If I keep the leaf, it wouldn't be for road trips. But I would like 
to
be able to make a 50 mile RT in 0F weather. That probably means 
having a

30kWh battery, at least. I'm figuring about 60% range at 0F and 30kWh
should give somewhere close to 100 miles under good conditions, right 
?


Does anyone know if there are still people replacing 2011 leaf 
batteries

in the greater seattle area ?

Thanks,
Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Thanks. Already looked there and the closest place is in Portland.

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Dex's Chris" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Peri Hartman" ; scam...@gmail.com
Sent: 12-Nov-22 11:09:10
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?


https://nissanleafbatteryreplacement.com/

On Sat, Nov 12, 2022 at 10:39 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:

Does anyone know if there are people or shops willing to do a battery
replacement for a 2011 leaf in the greater seattle area ?

The range in my Leaf was a dismal 20 miles in our sub zero weather 
last

winter. It certainly isn't going to be any better this winter :)

I've been looking to simply buy a new EV, which may make the most 
sense,
but am not finding anything that meets my needs and isn't too 
expensive.
I'd like something I can take on modest road trips, which means I 
would
want a reasonably fast L3 recharge from 10% to 80%, like 30 minutes. 
And

not over $40k including tax, etc.

The Bolt EV is close, but I think it's charge time is about 1h 20, 
which

makes it impractical for road trips. There are several models, e.g.
Kona, which I think are a bit over $40k all costs included that charge
in, perhaps 40 minutes (probably acceptable). But another option could
be to extend the life of my leaf and see what options are on the 
market

in 2-3 years. I need to look at that before making a decision.

If I keep the leaf, it wouldn't be for road trips. But I would like to
be able to make a 50 mile RT in 0F weather. That probably means having 
a

30kWh battery, at least. I'm figuring about 60% range at 0F and 30kWh
should give somewhere close to 100 miles under good conditions, right 
?


Does anyone know if there are still people replacing 2011 leaf 
batteries

in the greater seattle area ?

Thanks,
Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Practical ... let's see.

At 32F, I'm assuming the bolt will get about 10% less range (I found a 
few reports and that seems to be a reasonable guess). At 70mph, take off 
another 20%. That means a 250 mile battery becomes 175 miles. Keep a 
buffer of 25 miles so that one doesn't get range anxiety, that's 150 
miles. And that's not counting battery degregation.


So, 150 miles at 70 mph is a about 2h15 hours. Let's say 2h30 just for 
allowances. So, with one charge, you could travel 150 + 80% * 150 = 270 
miles. That trip would take 2h30 + 1h20 + 80% * 2h30 = 5h50. I can 
accept that.


But now let's say I want to go 300 miles. I need another charge to go 
another 30 miles. That would be a stop for 30/150 miles * 1h20 = 15 
minutes, assuming charge times are linear (they aren't). So, 300 miles 
would take

5h50 + 0h15 + 30/70mph = approx 6h30.

Normally, I would make only one stop for about an hour for a trip of 300 
miles. Using the same metric as above, 150 miles in 2h30, that would be 
5 hours + 1 hour rest = 6 hours. I guess that's really not too bad - 
only 30 minutes longer.


Ok, the bolt EV is worth a consideration. And, of course, in better 
weather, that second stop for 300 miles goes away, at least while the 
battery is new.


Peri


<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "EV List Lackey via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EV List Lackey" 
Sent: 12-Nov-22 10:20:54
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?


On 12 Nov 2022 at 16:37, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:


 The Bolt EV is close, but I think it's charge time is about 1h 20, which makes
 it impractical for road trips.


I guess that would depend on your definition of "practical," and how long
the trip is, and thus how many charging sessions are required.  When last I
looked, the Bolt's price - under $26k! - was tough to pass up.  That is just
astounding for a 259 mile range.  The difference between that and, say, a
Tesla 3, would buy a heck of a lot of road trip ICEV rentals.

As for waiting for something better, yeah, that's a strategy.  It depends
though on what you want.  You'd need to be OK with expensive SUVs and
crossovers, because that's just about all the automakers seem to be
introducing and have plans to introduce.  They don't want to sell small,
practical, reasonably-priced EVs any more than they want to sell small,
practical, reasonably-priced ICEVs.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
 I found one day in school a boy of medium size ill-treating
 a smaller boy. I expostulated, but he replied: "The bigs hit
 me, so I hit the babies; that's fair." In these words he
 epitomized the history of the human race.

-- Bertrand Russell, "Education and the Social Order"
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Willie via EV]

On 11/12/22 12:20, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

On 12 Nov 2022 at 16:37, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:


The Bolt EV is close, but I think it's charge time is about 1h 20, which makes
it impractical for road trips.

I guess that would depend on your definition of "practical," and how long
the trip is, and thus how many charging sessions are required.  When last I
looked, the Bolt's price - under $26k! - was tough to pass up.  That is just
astounding for a 259 mile range.  The difference between that and, say, a
Tesla 3, would buy a heck of a lot of road trip ICEV rentals.

Here is a semi-relevant anecdote.  A month or so ago, I was driving a 
Kentucky freeway (not toll) and charged at a "plaza" that is between the 
two roadways.  The plaza had about 8 Tesla stalls and 2 BrandX stalls.  
I don't think I've ever seen an EV charging at a BrandX before.  I was 
thrilled to see a Bolt charging when I arrived.  No Bolt person was 
there and I went in the truck stop for a head break.  When I returned, I 
found the Bolt person and got his story.  He had recently changed jobs 
and moved from California to Kentucky and lives near that plaza.  That 
is, he was just testing the charger rather than making a cross country 
trip.  He had had the Bolt towed from California and seemed to be using 
it only locally.  We chatted a bit but it was time for me to leave.  The 
Bolt was still charging when I left. One other Tesla had come and gone 
in that period.


Side anecdote:  When a fee is charged for Tesla SuperCharging, the fee 
seems mostly around $.35/kwh.  I think the BrandX charger in Kentucky 
fee was about $.32/kwh.  I was surprised since I thought BrandX fees 
were generally around $.45/kwh.  OTOH, I think that is TVA territory.  
If so, electric rates may be lower than other areas.



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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 12 Nov 2022 at 16:37, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> The Bolt EV is close, but I think it's charge time is about 1h 20, which makes
> it impractical for road trips.

I guess that would depend on your definition of "practical," and how long 
the trip is, and thus how many charging sessions are required.  When last I 
looked, the Bolt's price - under $26k! - was tough to pass up.  That is just 
astounding for a 259 mile range.  The difference between that and, say, a 
Tesla 3, would buy a heck of a lot of road trip ICEV rentals.

As for waiting for something better, yeah, that's a strategy.  It depends 
though on what you want.  You'd need to be OK with expensive SUVs and 
crossovers, because that's just about all the automakers seem to be 
introducing and have plans to introduce.  They don't want to sell small, 
practical, reasonably-priced EVs any more than they want to sell small, 
practical, reasonably-priced ICEVs.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 I found one day in school a boy of medium size ill-treating 
 a smaller boy. I expostulated, but he replied: "The bigs hit 
 me, so I hit the babies; that's fair." In these words he 
 epitomized the history of the human race.

-- Bertrand Russell, "Education and the Social Order"
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Peri Hartman via EV]

There used to be several companies (individuals ?) around who did leaf 
battery replacements. Even though intuition might suggest a demand for 
this service, apparently the market shows the opposite. Perhaps that 
will change over the next few years as more and more people are looking 
for a cheap EV.


Mine is 11 years old, which many people might consider too old. But, 
other than minor dents and minor interior wear, it's fine. The next 
cheapest current generation EV is probably the Bolt, but used ones are 
selling for $24k. That will probably go down in the next few years as 
more, less expensive, new models come on the market. Regardless, that's 
a huge spread from, say, $5k, to replace a leaf battery.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Peter Eckhoff via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Peter Eckhoff" 
Sent: 12-Nov-22 09:17:12
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?


Hi Peri,

Just two suggestions:
1.)  Is there not a Leaf owner's forum where you might be able to pose
your situation and question?
2.)  My ICE mechanic has replaced Prius packs **and** cells from third
party companies.  I would think with the number of Leafs out there,
there should be a similar company and shop.

Considering all the recent ads and articles about car companies going
all to almost all in on EV production, I would think a local ICE
mechanic trade association might be looking favorably on EV technology
and know of a local shop that specializes or wants to get their feet
wet in pack rebuilds/rejuvenation/replacement.  It's worth a shot.

Please let us know of your experience and outcome.

Peter


On Sat, Nov 12, 2022 at 11:39 AM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:


 Does anyone know if there are people or shops willing to do a battery
 replacement for a 2011 leaf in the greater seattle area ?

 The range in my Leaf was a dismal 20 miles in our sub zero weather last
 winter. It certainly isn't going to be any better this winter :)

 I've been looking to simply buy a new EV, which may make the most sense,
 but am not finding anything that meets my needs and isn't too expensive.
 I'd like something I can take on modest road trips, which means I would
 want a reasonably fast L3 recharge from 10% to 80%, like 30 minutes. And
 not over $40k including tax, etc.

 The Bolt EV is close, but I think it's charge time is about 1h 20, which
 makes it impractical for road trips. There are several models, e.g.
 Kona, which I think are a bit over $40k all costs included that charge
 in, perhaps 40 minutes (probably acceptable). But another option could
 be to extend the life of my leaf and see what options are on the market
 in 2-3 years. I need to look at that before making a decision.

 If I keep the leaf, it wouldn't be for road trips. But I would like to
 be able to make a 50 mile RT in 0F weather. That probably means having a
 30kWh battery, at least. I'm figuring about 60% range at 0F and 30kWh
 should give somewhere close to 100 miles under good conditions, right ?

 Does anyone know if there are still people replacing 2011 leaf batteries
 in the greater seattle area ?

 Thanks,
 Peri

 << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Willie via EV]

On 11/12/22 10:58, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
Yeah, I have my words for the 2011 leaf, too. But, really, I have to 
hold my complaints. I wanted the first commercially available EV (in 
my area) and that was the first choice (perhaps the iMiev would have 
been slightly better, don't know). I'm happy to have been driving an 
EV for over 11 years !
I bought two new 2014 imievs in 2015 and 2016.  They have been 
relatively trouble free but I have been unable to put many miles on 
them.  FAR less troublesome than the Leaf.  Well under 20k miles each.  
Volume on those cars has been so low that I do not expect a replacement 
battery business. to develop.  I do not understand why Leaf volume has 
not stimulated such business.  Service for imievs has pretty well 
disappeared as it has for Leafs.  Both my imievs have several error 
lights displayed but I figure they are not worth attempting a fix.  I 
have a semi-amusing story about getting the imievs air bags fixed.


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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Peter Eckhoff via EV]

Hi Peri,

Just two suggestions:
1.)  Is there not a Leaf owner's forum where you might be able to pose
your situation and question?
2.)  My ICE mechanic has replaced Prius packs **and** cells from third
party companies.  I would think with the number of Leafs out there,
there should be a similar company and shop.

Considering all the recent ads and articles about car companies going
all to almost all in on EV production, I would think a local ICE
mechanic trade association might be looking favorably on EV technology
and know of a local shop that specializes or wants to get their feet
wet in pack rebuilds/rejuvenation/replacement.  It's worth a shot.

Please let us know of your experience and outcome.

Peter


On Sat, Nov 12, 2022 at 11:39 AM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>
> Does anyone know if there are people or shops willing to do a battery
> replacement for a 2011 leaf in the greater seattle area ?
>
> The range in my Leaf was a dismal 20 miles in our sub zero weather last
> winter. It certainly isn't going to be any better this winter :)
>
> I've been looking to simply buy a new EV, which may make the most sense,
> but am not finding anything that meets my needs and isn't too expensive.
> I'd like something I can take on modest road trips, which means I would
> want a reasonably fast L3 recharge from 10% to 80%, like 30 minutes. And
> not over $40k including tax, etc.
>
> The Bolt EV is close, but I think it's charge time is about 1h 20, which
> makes it impractical for road trips. There are several models, e.g.
> Kona, which I think are a bit over $40k all costs included that charge
> in, perhaps 40 minutes (probably acceptable). But another option could
> be to extend the life of my leaf and see what options are on the market
> in 2-3 years. I need to look at that before making a decision.
>
> If I keep the leaf, it wouldn't be for road trips. But I would like to
> be able to make a 50 mile RT in 0F weather. That probably means having a
> 30kWh battery, at least. I'm figuring about 60% range at 0F and 30kWh
> should give somewhere close to 100 miles under good conditions, right ?
>
> Does anyone know if there are still people replacing 2011 leaf batteries
> in the greater seattle area ?
>
> Thanks,
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Yeah, I have my words for the 2011 leaf, too. But, really, I have to 
hold my complaints. I wanted the first commercially available EV (in my 
area) and that was the first choice (perhaps the iMiev would have been 
slightly better, don't know). I'm happy to have been driving an EV for 
over 11 years !


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Willie via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Willie" 
Sent: 12-Nov-22 08:49:20
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?



On 11/12/22 10:37, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

Does anyone know if there are people or shops willing to do a battery 
replacement for a 2011 leaf in the greater seattle area ?

The range in my Leaf was a dismal 20 miles in our sub zero weather last winter. 
It certainly isn't going to be any better this winter :)

I've been looking to simply buy a new EV, which may make the most sense, but am 
not finding anything that meets my needs and isn't too expensive. I'd like 
something I can take on modest road trips, which means I would want a 
reasonably fast L3 recharge from 10% to 80%, like 30 minutes. And not over $40k 
including tax, etc.

The Bolt EV is close, but I think it's charge time is about 1h 20, which makes 
it impractical for road trips. There are several models, e.g. Kona, which I 
think are a bit over $40k all costs included that charge in, perhaps 40 minutes 
(probably acceptable). But another option could be to extend the life of my 
leaf and see what options are on the market in 2-3 years. I need to look at 
that before making a decision.

If I keep the leaf, it wouldn't be for road trips. But I would like to be able 
to make a 50 mile RT in 0F weather. That probably means having a 30kWh battery, 
at least. I'm figuring about 60% range at 0F and 30kWh should give somewhere 
close to 100 miles under good conditions, right ?

Does anyone know if there are still people replacing 2011 leaf batteries in the 
greater seattle area ?


No direct help, but I have been monitoring the situation since when I bought my 
POS Leaf in 2011. I expected the battery to last ~10 years at which time I 
could more cheaply buy a bigger/better replacement.  Well, you know what 
happened.

Please post if you find anything interesting.  If you put labor into getting 
into the battery, it may be best to get much higher than OEM capacity.

Actually, I now consider only the Nissan battery a POS, not the entire car.

It DOES seem that there should be more battery replacement options available.



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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Thanks. I'll contact them, though it is a bit difficult to get the leaf 
to portland.

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Bob Bath via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Bob Bath" 
Sent: 12-Nov-22 08:51:17
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?


EVRides in Portland is all I know.

Sincerely,
Bob Bath
541.761.0838

Note: any misspellings of the contents of this message are due to 56 y.o. 
vision, hyperactive spell check changing what I typed, or fat fingering— not 
cluelessness.



 On Nov 12, 2022, at 8:50 AM, Willie via EV  wrote:

 

 On 11/12/22 10:37, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
 Does anyone know if there are people or shops willing to do a battery 
replacement for a 2011 leaf in the greater seattle area ?

 The range in my Leaf was a dismal 20 miles in our sub zero weather last 
winter. It certainly isn't going to be any better this winter :)

 I've been looking to simply buy a new EV, which may make the most sense, but 
am not finding anything that meets my needs and isn't too expensive. I'd like 
something I can take on modest road trips, which means I would want a 
reasonably fast L3 recharge from 10% to 80%, like 30 minutes. And not over $40k 
including tax, etc.

 The Bolt EV is close, but I think it's charge time is about 1h 20, which makes 
it impractical for road trips. There are several models, e.g. Kona, which I 
think are a bit over $40k all costs included that charge in, perhaps 40 minutes 
(probably acceptable). But another option could be to extend the life of my 
leaf and see what options are on the market in 2-3 years. I need to look at 
that before making a decision.

 If I keep the leaf, it wouldn't be for road trips. But I would like to be able 
to make a 50 mile RT in 0F weather. That probably means having a 30kWh battery, 
at least. I'm figuring about 60% range at 0F and 30kWh should give somewhere 
close to 100 miles under good conditions, right ?

 Does anyone know if there are still people replacing 2011 leaf batteries in 
the greater seattle area ?


 No direct help, but I have been monitoring the situation since when I bought 
my POS Leaf in 2011. I expected the battery to last ~10 years at which time I 
could more cheaply buy a bigger/better replacement.  Well, you know what 
happened.

 Please post if you find anything interesting.  If you put labor into getting 
into the battery, it may be best to get much higher than OEM capacity.

 Actually, I now consider only the Nissan battery a POS, not the entire car.

 It DOES seem that there should be more battery replacement options available.



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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Bob Bath via EV]

EVRides in Portland is all I know. 

Sincerely, 
Bob Bath
541.761.0838

Note: any misspellings of the contents of this message are due to 56 y.o. 
vision, hyperactive spell check changing what I typed, or fat fingering— not 
cluelessness. 


> On Nov 12, 2022, at 8:50 AM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 11/12/22 10:37, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>> Does anyone know if there are people or shops willing to do a battery 
>> replacement for a 2011 leaf in the greater seattle area ?
>> 
>> The range in my Leaf was a dismal 20 miles in our sub zero weather last 
>> winter. It certainly isn't going to be any better this winter :)
>> 
>> I've been looking to simply buy a new EV, which may make the most sense, but 
>> am not finding anything that meets my needs and isn't too expensive. I'd 
>> like something I can take on modest road trips, which means I would want a 
>> reasonably fast L3 recharge from 10% to 80%, like 30 minutes. And not over 
>> $40k including tax, etc.
>> 
>> The Bolt EV is close, but I think it's charge time is about 1h 20, which 
>> makes it impractical for road trips. There are several models, e.g. Kona, 
>> which I think are a bit over $40k all costs included that charge in, perhaps 
>> 40 minutes (probably acceptable). But another option could be to extend the 
>> life of my leaf and see what options are on the market in 2-3 years. I need 
>> to look at that before making a decision.
>> 
>> If I keep the leaf, it wouldn't be for road trips. But I would like to be 
>> able to make a 50 mile RT in 0F weather. That probably means having a 30kWh 
>> battery, at least. I'm figuring about 60% range at 0F and 30kWh should give 
>> somewhere close to 100 miles under good conditions, right ?
>> 
>> Does anyone know if there are still people replacing 2011 leaf batteries in 
>> the greater seattle area ?
> 
> No direct help, but I have been monitoring the situation since when I bought 
> my POS Leaf in 2011. I expected the battery to last ~10 years at which time I 
> could more cheaply buy a bigger/better replacement.  Well, you know what 
> happened.
> 
> Please post if you find anything interesting.  If you put labor into getting 
> into the battery, it may be best to get much higher than OEM capacity.
> 
> Actually, I now consider only the Nissan battery a POS, not the entire car.
> 
> It DOES seem that there should be more battery replacement options available.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Willie via EV]

On 11/12/22 10:37, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
Does anyone know if there are people or shops willing to do a battery 
replacement for a 2011 leaf in the greater seattle area ?


The range in my Leaf was a dismal 20 miles in our sub zero weather 
last winter. It certainly isn't going to be any better this winter :)


I've been looking to simply buy a new EV, which may make the most 
sense, but am not finding anything that meets my needs and isn't too 
expensive. I'd like something I can take on modest road trips, which 
means I would want a reasonably fast L3 recharge from 10% to 80%, like 
30 minutes. And not over $40k including tax, etc.


The Bolt EV is close, but I think it's charge time is about 1h 20, 
which makes it impractical for road trips. There are several models, 
e.g. Kona, which I think are a bit over $40k all costs included that 
charge in, perhaps 40 minutes (probably acceptable). But another 
option could be to extend the life of my leaf and see what options are 
on the market in 2-3 years. I need to look at that before making a 
decision.


If I keep the leaf, it wouldn't be for road trips. But I would like to 
be able to make a 50 mile RT in 0F weather. That probably means having 
a 30kWh battery, at least. I'm figuring about 60% range at 0F and 
30kWh should give somewhere close to 100 miles under good conditions, 
right ?


Does anyone know if there are still people replacing 2011 leaf 
batteries in the greater seattle area ?


No direct help, but I have been monitoring the situation since when I 
bought my POS Leaf in 2011. I expected the battery to last ~10 years at 
which time I could more cheaply buy a bigger/better replacement.  Well, 
you know what happened.


Please post if you find anything interesting.  If you put labor into 
getting into the battery, it may be best to get much higher than OEM 
capacity.


Actually, I now consider only the Nissan battery a POS, not the entire car.

It DOES seem that there should be more battery replacement options 
available.




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