Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

[Quentin Anciaux]

2013/11/29 Samiya Illias 

> I understand that so many deities and faith-systems and all the myths and
> fantasies in them easily put off any thinking mind. Yet, the more we
> discover, the closer we get to theorizing about everything, the more
> difficult it is to believe that everything just happens on its own.
>

And how is it easier for a god to happen on its own it is as absurd,
between the two, god hypothesis is just a gap of explanation and the
easiest to dismiss.

Quentin


> We may not be able to describe or imagine God, but it is also not possible
> to honestly dismiss a existence of a Deity!
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 6:26 AM, LizR  wrote:
>
>> But if *everything's *holy... well, you know the rest.
>>
>>
>> On 29 November 2013 14:02, Platonist Guitar Cowboy <
>> multiplecit...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't think size/length of the list matters much, lol!
>>>
>>> Crazy Ginsberg's list was shorter and he and his publishers apparently
>>> see reason for them to exist:
>>>
>>> *Footnote to Howl*
>>>  *By Allen Ginsberg
>>>  *
>>>
>>>
>>> Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy!
>>> Holy! Holy! Holy!
>>>  The world is holy! The soul is holy! The skin is holy! The nose is
>>> holy! The tongue and cock and hand and asshole holy!
>>>  Everything is holy! everybody’s holy! everywhere is holy! everyday is
>>> in eternity! Everyman’s an angel!
>>>  The bum’s as holy as the seraphim! the madman is holy as you my soul
>>> are holy!
>>>  The typewriter is holy the poem is holy the voice is holy the hearers
>>> are holy the ecstasy is holy!
>>>  Holy Peter holy Allen holy Solomon holy Lucien holy Kerouac holy Huncke
>>> holy Burroughs holy Cassady holy the unknown buggered and suffering beggars
>>> holy the hideous human angels!
>>>  Holy my mother in the insane asylum! Holy the cocks of the grandfathers
>>> of Kansas!
>>>  Holy the groaning saxophone! Holy the bop apocalypse! Holy the
>>> jazzbands marijuana hipsters peace peyote pipes & drums!
>>>  Holy the solitudes of skyscrapers and pavements! Holy the cafeterias
>>> filled with the millions! Holy the mysterious rivers of tears under the
>>> streets!
>>>  Holy the lone juggernaut! Holy the vast lamb of the middleclass! Holy
>>> the crazy shepherds of rebellion! Who digs Los Angeles IS Los Angeles!
>>>  Holy New York Holy San Francisco Holy Peoria & Seattle Holy Paris Holy
>>> Tangiers Holy Moscow Holy Istanbul!
>>>  Holy time in eternity holy eternity in time holy the clocks in space
>>> holy the fourth dimension holy the fifth International holy the Angel in
>>> Moloch!
>>>  Holy the sea holy the desert holy the railroad holy the locomotive holy
>>> the visions holy the hallucinations holy the miracles holy the eyeball holy
>>> the abyss!
>>>  Holy forgiveness! mercy! charity! faith! Holy! Ours! bodies! suffering!
>>> magnanimity!
>>>  Holy the supernatural extra brilliant intelligent kindness of the soul!
>>>
>>>
>>> *Berkeley 1955*
>>>
>>>  I believe both Brent and Allen. And the Sun... Dunno much about their
>>> existence though. PGC
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 1:03 AM, LizR  wrote:
>>>
 On 29 November 2013 09:19, meekerdb  wrote:

>
> I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken), Agdistis or
> Angdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Allah, Amaterasu, An, Anansi,
> Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis,
> Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart, Atlas, Baal, Ba Xian, Bacchus, 
> Balder,
> Bast, Bellona, Bergelmir, Bes, Bixia Yuanjin, Bragi, Brahma, Brent, 
> Brigit,
> Camaxtli, Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunnos, Chac, Chalchiuhtlicue, Charun,
> Chemosh, Cheng-huang, Clapton, Cybele, Dagon, Damkina (Dumkina), Davlin,
> Dawn, Demeter, Diana, Di Cang, Dionysus, Ea, El, Enki, Enlil, Eos, Epona,
> Ereskigal, Farbauti, Fenrir, Forseti, Fortuna, Freya, Freyr, Frigg, Gaia,
> Ganesha, Ganga, Garuda, Gauri, Geb, Geong Si, Guanyin, Hades, Hanuman,
> Hathor, Hecate (Hekate), Helios, Heng-o (Chang-o), Hephaestus, Hera,
> Hermes, Hestia, Hod, Hoderi, Hoori, Horus, Hotei, Huitzilopochtli,
> Hsi-Wang-Mu, Hygeia, Inanna, Inti, Iris, Ishtar, Isis, Ixtab, Izanaki,
> Izanami, Jesus, Juno, Jehovah, Jupiter, Juturna, Kagutsuchi, Kartikeya,
> Khepri, Ki, Kingu, Kinich Ahau, Kishar, Krishna, Kuan-yin, Kukulcan,
> Kvasir, Lakshmi, Leto, Liza, Loki, Lugh, Luna, Magna Mater, Maia, Marduk,
> Mars, Mazu, Medb, Mercury, Mimir, Min, Minerva, Mithras, Morrigan, Mot,
> Mummu, Muses, Nammu, Nanna, Nanna (Norse), Nanse, Neith, Nemesis, 
> Nephthys,
> Neptune, Nergal, Ninazu, Ninhurzag, Nintu, Ninurta, Njord, Nugua, Nut,
> Odin, Ohkuninushi, Ohyamatsumi, Orgelmir, Osiris, Ostara, Pan, Parvati,
> Phaethon, Phoebe, Phoebus Apollo, Pilumnus, Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, Rama,
> Re, RheaSabazius, Sarasvati, Selene, Shiva, Seshat, Seti (Set), Shamash,

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

[Samiya Illias]

I understand that so many deities and faith-systems and all the myths and
fantasies in them easily put off any thinking mind. Yet, the more we
discover, the closer we get to theorizing about everything, the more
difficult it is to believe that everything just happens on its own. We may
not be able to describe or imagine God, but it is also not possible to
honestly dismiss a existence of a Deity!


On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 6:26 AM, LizR  wrote:

> But if *everything's *holy... well, you know the rest.
>
>
> On 29 November 2013 14:02, Platonist Guitar Cowboy <
> multiplecit...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't think size/length of the list matters much, lol!
>>
>> Crazy Ginsberg's list was shorter and he and his publishers apparently
>> see reason for them to exist:
>>
>> *Footnote to Howl*
>>  *By Allen Ginsberg 
>> *
>>
>>
>> Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy!
>> Holy! Holy! Holy!
>>  The world is holy! The soul is holy! The skin is holy! The nose is holy!
>> The tongue and cock and hand and asshole holy!
>>  Everything is holy! everybody’s holy! everywhere is holy! everyday is in
>> eternity! Everyman’s an angel!
>>  The bum’s as holy as the seraphim! the madman is holy as you my soul are
>> holy!
>>  The typewriter is holy the poem is holy the voice is holy the hearers
>> are holy the ecstasy is holy!
>>  Holy Peter holy Allen holy Solomon holy Lucien holy Kerouac holy Huncke
>> holy Burroughs holy Cassady holy the unknown buggered and suffering beggars
>> holy the hideous human angels!
>>  Holy my mother in the insane asylum! Holy the cocks of the grandfathers
>> of Kansas!
>>  Holy the groaning saxophone! Holy the bop apocalypse! Holy the jazzbands
>> marijuana hipsters peace peyote pipes & drums!
>>  Holy the solitudes of skyscrapers and pavements! Holy the cafeterias
>> filled with the millions! Holy the mysterious rivers of tears under the
>> streets!
>>  Holy the lone juggernaut! Holy the vast lamb of the middleclass! Holy
>> the crazy shepherds of rebellion! Who digs Los Angeles IS Los Angeles!
>>  Holy New York Holy San Francisco Holy Peoria & Seattle Holy Paris Holy
>> Tangiers Holy Moscow Holy Istanbul!
>>  Holy time in eternity holy eternity in time holy the clocks in space
>> holy the fourth dimension holy the fifth International holy the Angel in
>> Moloch!
>>  Holy the sea holy the desert holy the railroad holy the locomotive holy
>> the visions holy the hallucinations holy the miracles holy the eyeball holy
>> the abyss!
>>  Holy forgiveness! mercy! charity! faith! Holy! Ours! bodies! suffering!
>> magnanimity!
>>  Holy the supernatural extra brilliant intelligent kindness of the soul!
>>
>>
>> *Berkeley 1955*
>>
>>  I believe both Brent and Allen. And the Sun... Dunno much about their
>> existence though. PGC
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 1:03 AM, LizR  wrote:
>>
>>> On 29 November 2013 09:19, meekerdb  wrote:
>>>

 I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken), Agdistis or
 Angdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Allah, Amaterasu, An, Anansi,
 Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis,
 Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart, Atlas, Baal, Ba Xian, Bacchus, Balder,
 Bast, Bellona, Bergelmir, Bes, Bixia Yuanjin, Bragi, Brahma, Brent, Brigit,
 Camaxtli, Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunnos, Chac, Chalchiuhtlicue, Charun,
 Chemosh, Cheng-huang, Clapton, Cybele, Dagon, Damkina (Dumkina), Davlin,
 Dawn, Demeter, Diana, Di Cang, Dionysus, Ea, El, Enki, Enlil, Eos, Epona,
 Ereskigal, Farbauti, Fenrir, Forseti, Fortuna, Freya, Freyr, Frigg, Gaia,
 Ganesha, Ganga, Garuda, Gauri, Geb, Geong Si, Guanyin, Hades, Hanuman,
 Hathor, Hecate (Hekate), Helios, Heng-o (Chang-o), Hephaestus, Hera,
 Hermes, Hestia, Hod, Hoderi, Hoori, Horus, Hotei, Huitzilopochtli,
 Hsi-Wang-Mu, Hygeia, Inanna, Inti, Iris, Ishtar, Isis, Ixtab, Izanaki,
 Izanami, Jesus, Juno, Jehovah, Jupiter, Juturna, Kagutsuchi, Kartikeya,
 Khepri, Ki, Kingu, Kinich Ahau, Kishar, Krishna, Kuan-yin, Kukulcan,
 Kvasir, Lakshmi, Leto, Liza, Loki, Lugh, Luna, Magna Mater, Maia, Marduk,
 Mars, Mazu, Medb, Mercury, Mimir, Min, Minerva, Mithras, Morrigan, Mot,
 Mummu, Muses, Nammu, Nanna, Nanna (Norse), Nanse, Neith, Nemesis, Nephthys,
 Neptune, Nergal, Ninazu, Ninhurzag, Nintu, Ninurta, Njord, Nugua, Nut,
 Odin, Ohkuninushi, Ohyamatsumi, Orgelmir, Osiris, Ostara, Pan, Parvati,
 Phaethon, Phoebe, Phoebus Apollo, Pilumnus, Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, Rama,
 Re, RheaSabazius, Sarasvati, Selene, Shiva, Seshat, Seti (Set), Shamash,
 Shapsu, Shen Yi, Shiva, Shu, Si-Wang-Mu, Sin, Sirona, Sol, Surya, Susanoh,
 Tawaret, Tefnut, Tezcatlipoca, Thanatos, Thor, Thoth, Tiamat, Tianhou,
 Tlaloc, Tonatiuh, Toyo-Uke-Bime, Tyche, Tyr, Utu, Uzume, Vediovis, Venus,
 Vesta, Vishnu, Volturnus, Vulcan, Xipe, Xi Wang-mu, Xochipilli,
 Xochiquetzal, Yam, Ya

Re: doesn't dark matter falsify general relativity?

[John Clark]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:

> if GR requires dark matter to work, and if we can't observe dark matter,
> doesn't this mean that GR is falsified?


If Dark Matter really isn't there then that would indeed falsify General
Relativity; but the theory that Dark Matter really isn't there is itself
falsified by observations of the Bullet Cluster.

  John K Clark

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Re: An account of the historical suppression of Leibniz's forbidden knowledge

[LizR]

On 29 November 2013 15:17, Richard Ruquist  wrote:

> Yes, but I like his Mathematics
>

Just one of Bruno's many talents :)

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Re: An account of the historical suppression of Leibniz's forbidden knowledge

[Richard Ruquist]

Yes, but I like his Mathematics


On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 7:39 PM, LizR  wrote:

> On 29 November 2013 02:12, Roger Clough  wrote:
>
>>  An account of the historical (and continuing) suppression of Leibniz's
>> "forbidden" ideas
>>
>> Leibniz was an anti-materialist so that his inclusion of Mind and
>> deity into his philosophy were forbidden ideas, and stillo are, to our
>> detriment.
>>
>
> Yes, look at the flak Bruno gets (on a forum dedicated to discussing the
> nature of reality!) because he dares to suggest that we can base our
> understanding of the universe around the mind, and has a theory which
> purports to show that "primitive materialism" isn't consistent.
>
>  --
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Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

[LizR]

But if *everything's *holy... well, you know the rest.


On 29 November 2013 14:02, Platonist Guitar Cowboy  wrote:

> I don't think size/length of the list matters much, lol!
>
> Crazy Ginsberg's list was shorter and he and his publishers apparently see
> reason for them to exist:
>
> *Footnote to Howl*
>  *By Allen Ginsberg  *
>
>
> Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy!
> Holy! Holy! Holy!
>  The world is holy! The soul is holy! The skin is holy! The nose is holy!
> The tongue and cock and hand and asshole holy!
>  Everything is holy! everybody’s holy! everywhere is holy! everyday is in
> eternity! Everyman’s an angel!
>  The bum’s as holy as the seraphim! the madman is holy as you my soul are
> holy!
>  The typewriter is holy the poem is holy the voice is holy the hearers are
> holy the ecstasy is holy!
>  Holy Peter holy Allen holy Solomon holy Lucien holy Kerouac holy Huncke
> holy Burroughs holy Cassady holy the unknown buggered and suffering beggars
> holy the hideous human angels!
>  Holy my mother in the insane asylum! Holy the cocks of the grandfathers
> of Kansas!
>  Holy the groaning saxophone! Holy the bop apocalypse! Holy the jazzbands
> marijuana hipsters peace peyote pipes & drums!
>  Holy the solitudes of skyscrapers and pavements! Holy the cafeterias
> filled with the millions! Holy the mysterious rivers of tears under the
> streets!
>  Holy the lone juggernaut! Holy the vast lamb of the middleclass! Holy the
> crazy shepherds of rebellion! Who digs Los Angeles IS Los Angeles!
>  Holy New York Holy San Francisco Holy Peoria & Seattle Holy Paris Holy
> Tangiers Holy Moscow Holy Istanbul!
>  Holy time in eternity holy eternity in time holy the clocks in space holy
> the fourth dimension holy the fifth International holy the Angel in Moloch!
>  Holy the sea holy the desert holy the railroad holy the locomotive holy
> the visions holy the hallucinations holy the miracles holy the eyeball holy
> the abyss!
>  Holy forgiveness! mercy! charity! faith! Holy! Ours! bodies! suffering!
> magnanimity!
>  Holy the supernatural extra brilliant intelligent kindness of the soul!
>
>
> *Berkeley 1955*
>
>  I believe both Brent and Allen. And the Sun... Dunno much about their
> existence though. PGC
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 1:03 AM, LizR  wrote:
>
>> On 29 November 2013 09:19, meekerdb  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken), Agdistis or
>>> Angdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Allah, Amaterasu, An, Anansi,
>>> Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis,
>>> Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart, Atlas, Baal, Ba Xian, Bacchus, Balder,
>>> Bast, Bellona, Bergelmir, Bes, Bixia Yuanjin, Bragi, Brahma, Brent, Brigit,
>>> Camaxtli, Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunnos, Chac, Chalchiuhtlicue, Charun,
>>> Chemosh, Cheng-huang, Clapton, Cybele, Dagon, Damkina (Dumkina), Davlin,
>>> Dawn, Demeter, Diana, Di Cang, Dionysus, Ea, El, Enki, Enlil, Eos, Epona,
>>> Ereskigal, Farbauti, Fenrir, Forseti, Fortuna, Freya, Freyr, Frigg, Gaia,
>>> Ganesha, Ganga, Garuda, Gauri, Geb, Geong Si, Guanyin, Hades, Hanuman,
>>> Hathor, Hecate (Hekate), Helios, Heng-o (Chang-o), Hephaestus, Hera,
>>> Hermes, Hestia, Hod, Hoderi, Hoori, Horus, Hotei, Huitzilopochtli,
>>> Hsi-Wang-Mu, Hygeia, Inanna, Inti, Iris, Ishtar, Isis, Ixtab, Izanaki,
>>> Izanami, Jesus, Juno, Jehovah, Jupiter, Juturna, Kagutsuchi, Kartikeya,
>>> Khepri, Ki, Kingu, Kinich Ahau, Kishar, Krishna, Kuan-yin, Kukulcan,
>>> Kvasir, Lakshmi, Leto, Liza, Loki, Lugh, Luna, Magna Mater, Maia, Marduk,
>>> Mars, Mazu, Medb, Mercury, Mimir, Min, Minerva, Mithras, Morrigan, Mot,
>>> Mummu, Muses, Nammu, Nanna, Nanna (Norse), Nanse, Neith, Nemesis, Nephthys,
>>> Neptune, Nergal, Ninazu, Ninhurzag, Nintu, Ninurta, Njord, Nugua, Nut,
>>> Odin, Ohkuninushi, Ohyamatsumi, Orgelmir, Osiris, Ostara, Pan, Parvati,
>>> Phaethon, Phoebe, Phoebus Apollo, Pilumnus, Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, Rama,
>>> Re, RheaSabazius, Sarasvati, Selene, Shiva, Seshat, Seti (Set), Shamash,
>>> Shapsu, Shen Yi, Shiva, Shu, Si-Wang-Mu, Sin, Sirona, Sol, Surya, Susanoh,
>>> Tawaret, Tefnut, Tezcatlipoca, Thanatos, Thor, Thoth, Tiamat, Tianhou,
>>> Tlaloc, Tonatiuh, Toyo-Uke-Bime, Tyche, Tyr, Utu, Uzume, Vediovis, Venus,
>>> Vesta, Vishnu, Volturnus, Vulcan, Xipe, Xi Wang-mu, Xochipilli,
>>> Xochiquetzal, Yam, Yarikh, YHWH, Ymir, Yu-huang, Yum Kimil and Zeus. But I
>>> see no reason to believe any of them exist.
>>>
>>
>> Hey, what's that about Amaterasu? She obviously exists!
>>
>> (Admittedly we tend to call her "the Sun" nowadays :-)
>>
>>  --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Everything List" group.
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Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

[Platonist Guitar Cowboy]

I don't think size/length of the list matters much, lol!

Crazy Ginsberg's list was shorter and he and his publishers apparently see
reason for them to exist:

*Footnote to Howl*
 *By Allen Ginsberg  *


Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy!
Holy! Holy! Holy!
 The world is holy! The soul is holy! The skin is holy! The nose is holy!
The tongue and cock and hand and asshole holy!
 Everything is holy! everybody’s holy! everywhere is holy! everyday is in
eternity! Everyman’s an angel!
 The bum’s as holy as the seraphim! the madman is holy as you my soul are
holy!
 The typewriter is holy the poem is holy the voice is holy the hearers are
holy the ecstasy is holy!
 Holy Peter holy Allen holy Solomon holy Lucien holy Kerouac holy Huncke
holy Burroughs holy Cassady holy the unknown buggered and suffering beggars
holy the hideous human angels!
 Holy my mother in the insane asylum! Holy the cocks of the grandfathers of
Kansas!
 Holy the groaning saxophone! Holy the bop apocalypse! Holy the jazzbands
marijuana hipsters peace peyote pipes & drums!
 Holy the solitudes of skyscrapers and pavements! Holy the cafeterias
filled with the millions! Holy the mysterious rivers of tears under the
streets!
 Holy the lone juggernaut! Holy the vast lamb of the middleclass! Holy the
crazy shepherds of rebellion! Who digs Los Angeles IS Los Angeles!
 Holy New York Holy San Francisco Holy Peoria & Seattle Holy Paris Holy
Tangiers Holy Moscow Holy Istanbul!
 Holy time in eternity holy eternity in time holy the clocks in space holy
the fourth dimension holy the fifth International holy the Angel in Moloch!
 Holy the sea holy the desert holy the railroad holy the locomotive holy
the visions holy the hallucinations holy the miracles holy the eyeball holy
the abyss!
 Holy forgiveness! mercy! charity! faith! Holy! Ours! bodies! suffering!
magnanimity!
 Holy the supernatural extra brilliant intelligent kindness of the soul!


*Berkeley 1955*

I believe both Brent and Allen. And the Sun... Dunno much about their
existence though. PGC



On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 1:03 AM, LizR  wrote:

> On 29 November 2013 09:19, meekerdb  wrote:
>
>>
>> I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken), Agdistis or
>> Angdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Allah, Amaterasu, An, Anansi,
>> Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis,
>> Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart, Atlas, Baal, Ba Xian, Bacchus, Balder,
>> Bast, Bellona, Bergelmir, Bes, Bixia Yuanjin, Bragi, Brahma, Brent, Brigit,
>> Camaxtli, Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunnos, Chac, Chalchiuhtlicue, Charun,
>> Chemosh, Cheng-huang, Clapton, Cybele, Dagon, Damkina (Dumkina), Davlin,
>> Dawn, Demeter, Diana, Di Cang, Dionysus, Ea, El, Enki, Enlil, Eos, Epona,
>> Ereskigal, Farbauti, Fenrir, Forseti, Fortuna, Freya, Freyr, Frigg, Gaia,
>> Ganesha, Ganga, Garuda, Gauri, Geb, Geong Si, Guanyin, Hades, Hanuman,
>> Hathor, Hecate (Hekate), Helios, Heng-o (Chang-o), Hephaestus, Hera,
>> Hermes, Hestia, Hod, Hoderi, Hoori, Horus, Hotei, Huitzilopochtli,
>> Hsi-Wang-Mu, Hygeia, Inanna, Inti, Iris, Ishtar, Isis, Ixtab, Izanaki,
>> Izanami, Jesus, Juno, Jehovah, Jupiter, Juturna, Kagutsuchi, Kartikeya,
>> Khepri, Ki, Kingu, Kinich Ahau, Kishar, Krishna, Kuan-yin, Kukulcan,
>> Kvasir, Lakshmi, Leto, Liza, Loki, Lugh, Luna, Magna Mater, Maia, Marduk,
>> Mars, Mazu, Medb, Mercury, Mimir, Min, Minerva, Mithras, Morrigan, Mot,
>> Mummu, Muses, Nammu, Nanna, Nanna (Norse), Nanse, Neith, Nemesis, Nephthys,
>> Neptune, Nergal, Ninazu, Ninhurzag, Nintu, Ninurta, Njord, Nugua, Nut,
>> Odin, Ohkuninushi, Ohyamatsumi, Orgelmir, Osiris, Ostara, Pan, Parvati,
>> Phaethon, Phoebe, Phoebus Apollo, Pilumnus, Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, Rama,
>> Re, RheaSabazius, Sarasvati, Selene, Shiva, Seshat, Seti (Set), Shamash,
>> Shapsu, Shen Yi, Shiva, Shu, Si-Wang-Mu, Sin, Sirona, Sol, Surya, Susanoh,
>> Tawaret, Tefnut, Tezcatlipoca, Thanatos, Thor, Thoth, Tiamat, Tianhou,
>> Tlaloc, Tonatiuh, Toyo-Uke-Bime, Tyche, Tyr, Utu, Uzume, Vediovis, Venus,
>> Vesta, Vishnu, Volturnus, Vulcan, Xipe, Xi Wang-mu, Xochipilli,
>> Xochiquetzal, Yam, Yarikh, YHWH, Ymir, Yu-huang, Yum Kimil and Zeus. But I
>> see no reason to believe any of them exist.
>>
>
> Hey, what's that about Amaterasu? She obviously exists!
>
> (Admittedly we tend to call her "the Sun" nowadays :-)
>
>  --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Everything List" group.
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>

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Re: An account of the historical suppression of Leibniz's forbidden knowledge

[LizR]

On 29 November 2013 02:12, Roger Clough  wrote:

>  An account of the historical (and continuing) suppression of Leibniz's
> "forbidden" ideas
>
> Leibniz was an anti-materialist so that his inclusion of Mind and
> deity into his philosophy were forbidden ideas, and stillo are, to our
> detriment.
>

Yes, look at the flak Bruno gets (on a forum dedicated to discussing the
nature of reality!) because he dares to suggest that we can base our
understanding of the universe around the mind, and has a theory which
purports to show that "primitive materialism" isn't consistent.

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Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

[LizR]

On 29 November 2013 09:19, meekerdb  wrote:

>
> I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken), Agdistis or
> Angdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Allah, Amaterasu, An, Anansi,
> Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis,
> Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart, Atlas, Baal, Ba Xian, Bacchus, Balder,
> Bast, Bellona, Bergelmir, Bes, Bixia Yuanjin, Bragi, Brahma, Brent, Brigit,
> Camaxtli, Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunnos, Chac, Chalchiuhtlicue, Charun,
> Chemosh, Cheng-huang, Clapton, Cybele, Dagon, Damkina (Dumkina), Davlin,
> Dawn, Demeter, Diana, Di Cang, Dionysus, Ea, El, Enki, Enlil, Eos, Epona,
> Ereskigal, Farbauti, Fenrir, Forseti, Fortuna, Freya, Freyr, Frigg, Gaia,
> Ganesha, Ganga, Garuda, Gauri, Geb, Geong Si, Guanyin, Hades, Hanuman,
> Hathor, Hecate (Hekate), Helios, Heng-o (Chang-o), Hephaestus, Hera,
> Hermes, Hestia, Hod, Hoderi, Hoori, Horus, Hotei, Huitzilopochtli,
> Hsi-Wang-Mu, Hygeia, Inanna, Inti, Iris, Ishtar, Isis, Ixtab, Izanaki,
> Izanami, Jesus, Juno, Jehovah, Jupiter, Juturna, Kagutsuchi, Kartikeya,
> Khepri, Ki, Kingu, Kinich Ahau, Kishar, Krishna, Kuan-yin, Kukulcan,
> Kvasir, Lakshmi, Leto, Liza, Loki, Lugh, Luna, Magna Mater, Maia, Marduk,
> Mars, Mazu, Medb, Mercury, Mimir, Min, Minerva, Mithras, Morrigan, Mot,
> Mummu, Muses, Nammu, Nanna, Nanna (Norse), Nanse, Neith, Nemesis, Nephthys,
> Neptune, Nergal, Ninazu, Ninhurzag, Nintu, Ninurta, Njord, Nugua, Nut,
> Odin, Ohkuninushi, Ohyamatsumi, Orgelmir, Osiris, Ostara, Pan, Parvati,
> Phaethon, Phoebe, Phoebus Apollo, Pilumnus, Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, Rama,
> Re, RheaSabazius, Sarasvati, Selene, Shiva, Seshat, Seti (Set), Shamash,
> Shapsu, Shen Yi, Shiva, Shu, Si-Wang-Mu, Sin, Sirona, Sol, Surya, Susanoh,
> Tawaret, Tefnut, Tezcatlipoca, Thanatos, Thor, Thoth, Tiamat, Tianhou,
> Tlaloc, Tonatiuh, Toyo-Uke-Bime, Tyche, Tyr, Utu, Uzume, Vediovis, Venus,
> Vesta, Vishnu, Volturnus, Vulcan, Xipe, Xi Wang-mu, Xochipilli,
> Xochiquetzal, Yam, Yarikh, YHWH, Ymir, Yu-huang, Yum Kimil and Zeus. But I
> see no reason to believe any of them exist.
>

Hey, what's that about Amaterasu? She obviously exists!

(Admittedly we tend to call her "the Sun" nowadays :-)

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Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

[LizR]

On 29 November 2013 03:29, Samiya Illias  wrote:

> Bruno wrote: 'I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They
> did invented the God used by both the abramanic cultures (even if terribly
> deformed, notably by the abandon of science about it, and the use of
> authoritative arguments, by Christians, Muslims, and perhaps by the Jewish
> (with Maimonides, to some extent).
>
> It is not because we have found strong evidence that the Earth is NOT
> flat, that Earth has disappeared.  We just correct our theory of Earth. Why
> couldn't we do that with the notion of God?'
>
> Atheists think that's exactly what we have done, just as we correct our
notions of Santa Claus as we grow up.

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RE: Atheism is wish fulfillment

[Colin Geoffrey Hales]

Religion? There's a Tim Minchin video for that. It'll cure you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr1I3mBojc0
or maybe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZeWPScnolo

cheers
colin


-Original Message-
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb
Sent: Friday, 29 November 2013 7:35 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

On 11/28/2013 6:29 AM, Samiya Illias wrote:
> Bruno wrote: 'I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They did 
> invented the God used by both the abramanic cultures (even if terribly 
> deformed, notably by the abandon of science about it, and the use of 
> authoritative arguments, by Christians, Muslims, and perhaps by the Jewish 
> (with Maimonides, to some extent).
>
> It is not because we have found strong evidence that the Earth is NOT flat, 
> that Earth has disappeared.  We just correct our theory of Earth. Why 
> couldn't we do that with the notion of God?'
> 
>
> The God of Abrahamic faiths is the Deity. We believe that He is the only God 
> from time immemorial. All prophets preceding Abraham also spoke of the same 
> God. Unfortunately, over ages most belief systems degenerate into a pantheon 
> of gods 'in the image of humans'.
> The God I believe in is the majestic, indescribable, unimaginable, majestic 
> Creator and Sustainer of everything.

Too bad he can't sustain his religions.

Brent

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Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

[meekerdb]

On 11/28/2013 6:29 AM, Samiya Illias wrote:

Bruno wrote: 'I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They did 
invented the God used by both the abramanic cultures (even if terribly 
deformed, notably by the abandon of science about it, and the use of 
authoritative arguments, by Christians, Muslims, and perhaps by the Jewish 
(with Maimonides, to some extent).

It is not because we have found strong evidence that the Earth is NOT flat, 
that Earth has disappeared.  We just correct our theory of Earth. Why couldn't 
we do that with the notion of God?'


The God of Abrahamic faiths is the Deity. We believe that He is the only God 
from time immemorial. All prophets preceding Abraham also spoke of the same 
God. Unfortunately, over ages most belief systems degenerate into a pantheon of 
gods 'in the image of humans'.
The God I believe in is the majestic, indescribable, unimaginable, majestic 
Creator and Sustainer of everything.


Too bad he can't sustain his religions.

Brent

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Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

[meekerdb]

On 11/28/2013 5:52 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 27 Nov 2013, at 23:36, meekerdb wrote:


On 11/27/2013 7:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 26 Nov 2013, at 18:56, John Clark wrote:



On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 4:32 AM, Bruno Marchal > wrote:


> Atheism is also the belief in NO afterlife,


Those are 2 separate ideas and there is no reason they must be linked.  There could 
be a God and no afterlife or a afterlife and no God; or neither could exist or both 
could.


If you are able to conceive a god without afterlife, it means you can conceive a non 
Christian God, which is nice, but contradicts the main atheist statements you already 
did in preceding conversations.


How does being able to conceive a non-Christian God contradict being an atheist??  I 
can conceive many different gods that I don't believe in.


Can you conceive a God in which you do believe?

That was for John Clark who defined once God by the Christian God.

Also, if you can conceive a Non Christian God, it becomes more difficult to *believe* in 
the non existence of God.


I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken), Agdistis or Angdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura 
Mazda, Alberich, Allah, Amaterasu, An, Anansi, Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, 
Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis, Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart, Atlas, Baal, Ba Xian, 
Bacchus, Balder, Bast, Bellona, Bergelmir, Bes, Bixia Yuanjin, Bragi, Brahma, Brent, 
Brigit, Camaxtli, Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunnos, Chac, Chalchiuhtlicue, Charun, Chemosh, 
Cheng-huang, Clapton, Cybele, Dagon, Damkina (Dumkina), Davlin, Dawn, Demeter, Diana, Di 
Cang, Dionysus, Ea, El, Enki, Enlil, Eos, Epona, Ereskigal, Farbauti, Fenrir, Forseti, 
Fortuna, Freya, Freyr, Frigg, Gaia, Ganesha, Ganga, Garuda, Gauri, Geb, Geong Si, Guanyin, 
Hades, Hanuman, Hathor, Hecate (Hekate), Helios, Heng-o (Chang-o), Hephaestus, Hera, 
Hermes, Hestia, Hod, Hoderi, Hoori, Horus, Hotei, Huitzilopochtli, Hsi-Wang-Mu, Hygeia, 
Inanna, Inti, Iris, Ishtar, Isis, Ixtab, Izanaki, Izanami, Jesus, Juno, Jehovah, Jupiter, 
Juturna, Kagutsuchi, Kartikeya, Khepri, Ki, Kingu, Kinich Ahau, Kishar, Krishna, Kuan-yin, 
Kukulcan, Kvasir, Lakshmi, Leto, Liza, Loki, Lugh, Luna, Magna Mater, Maia, Marduk, Mars, 
Mazu, Medb, Mercury, Mimir, Min, Minerva, Mithras, Morrigan, Mot, Mummu, Muses, Nammu, 
Nanna, Nanna (Norse), Nanse, Neith, Nemesis, Nephthys, Neptune, Nergal, Ninazu, Ninhurzag, 
Nintu, Ninurta, Njord, Nugua, Nut, Odin, Ohkuninushi, Ohyamatsumi, Orgelmir, Osiris, 
Ostara, Pan, Parvati, Phaethon, Phoebe, Phoebus Apollo, Pilumnus, Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, 
Rama, Re, RheaSabazius, Sarasvati, Selene, Shiva, Seshat, Seti (Set), Shamash, Shapsu, 
Shen Yi, Shiva, Shu, Si-Wang-Mu, Sin, Sirona, Sol, Surya, Susanoh, Tawaret, Tefnut, 
Tezcatlipoca, Thanatos, Thor, Thoth, Tiamat, Tianhou, Tlaloc, Tonatiuh, Toyo-Uke-Bime, 
Tyche, Tyr, Utu, Uzume, Vediovis, Venus, Vesta, Vishnu, Volturnus, Vulcan, Xipe, Xi 
Wang-mu, Xochipilli, Xochiquetzal, Yam, Yarikh, YHWH, Ymir, Yu-huang, Yum Kimil and Zeus. 
But I see no reason to believe any of them exist.











We might try to decide on a definition of "atheism", as that notion is very unclear, 
and I have rarely obtain a definition on which atheists agreed.


It's as clear as the negation of 'theist'.


But "theist" is not clear.


My point exactly.

Some identify "God" with the God of their own culture. In science, we try to get a 
concept as independent of human and culture as possible.










I use "God" in the greek sense of Truth (the one that we can search about us, or hope 
or fear, in life and afterlife, whatever it is).


Except nobody here is speaking Greek.  And the Greeks had plenty of gods that had 
nothing to do with truth; in fact they were given to deception.


I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They did invented the God used by 
both the abramanic cultures (even if terribly deformed, notably by the abandon of 
science about it, and the use of authoritative arguments, by Christians, Muslims, and 
perhaps by the Jewish (with Maimonides, to some extent).


Christianity, specifically Aquinas and Augustine, tried to merge Greek philosophy into the 
Jewish Messianic religion of Christianity.  But the abrahamic religions owe far more to 
the Babylonian, Egyptian, and Zoroastrian religions than to Greek.





It is not because we have found strong evidence that the Earth is NOT flat, that Earth 
has disappeared.  We just correct our theory of Earth. Why couldn't we do that with the 
notion of God?


Well for one thing, we can point to the Earth and say "That."  Shall we just correct our 
theory of Vulcan and instead of it being a planet identical to Earth but which is always 
behind the Sun it will be a conceptual planet that has no observable effects but which we 
will say it exists in the mathematical way: It satisfies some propositions.  Then we can 
keep the word "Vulcan" and persecute whoever denies its existence.


Brent



Bruno

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

[Bruno Marchal]

On 27 Nov 2013, at 23:43, LizR wrote:


Noun
atheism (plural atheisms)
(narrowly) Belief that no deities exist (sometimes including  
rejection of other religious beliefs).
(broadly) Rejection of belief that any deities exist (with or  
without a belief that no deities exist).
(very broadly) Absence of belief that any deities exist (including  
absence of the concept of deities).
(loosely, uncommon) Absence of belief in a particular deity,  
pantheon, or religious doctrine (notwithstanding belief in other  
deities).


(Wikipedia)

Quantum immortality would be a form of afterlife without a god or  
gods.



Let us call  a "god" something we might have faith in, but cannot  
prove its existence. OK?


Quantum immortality, and the many comp immortalities,  necessitates  
the belief in some infinity, OK?


Can we prove the existence of an infinity?

In my opinion, 0 is already a Goddess, and 1 a God, and 2 a Goddess,  
and cetera.


Can you prove the existence of the number 0? (without assuming them  
all, or some other Turing universal axiom)


You need all of them to make sense of "immortality". (If *that* makes  
sense and/or immortality of who exactly?).







A multiverse in which creatures aribtrarily close to gods are  
guaranteed to exist somewhere would be gods without an afterlife (or  
at least without one provided by the gods, depending on whether a  
multiverse implies (1))



Mortality is as much conjectural than immortality, and it depends on  
what "value" you identify with, or of your ability to recognize  
yourself in others.


God(s) are more than just infinities, of course, there are often  
related to good, fair,  juste, etc. (or their contrary).
(and let us forget about omniscience and omnipotence as it makes not  
much sense, except in pointing on some tradeoff possible).


Like Cantor showed for the infinite (naming multiplies it), God(s)  
inherit(s) the inherent feature of the "infinite", and math does put  
light on this.


In math and physics, most infinities are "numbers", as being  
programmable or generable relatively to a universal system (computer,  
PA, ...). But in computer science, like in number theory "infinities"  
of many different orders appear all the time. Sometimes we are able to  
get rid of them, but that by itself is seen as a wonderful  
achievement, obtained after a lot of work.


The "god" of comp is the one which resurrects you in the computation  
emulating you at the correct level hopefully. And the problem is that  
such a god resurrects you infinitely often in the truth of infinitely  
many computations leading to a complex relative truth object in  
arithmetic. And the resurrection does not need more magic than the  
assumption that a brain is Turing emulable.


But this does not dispense us from the need of the "infinities", if  
only to understand why the machines can get crazy about them.


Finites and infinities fertilize each other.

Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

[Samiya Illias]

Sure, but before being judgemental and throwing it out of the window, do read 
the Books of the Abrahamic faiths. Perhaps one of them will pleasantly surprise 
you :) 

Samiya 

Sent from my iPhone

On 28-Nov-2013, at 8:54 PM, Quentin Anciaux  wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> 2013/11/28 Samiya Illias 
>> Quentin wrote: 'Because we are not all loving, omnipotent, omniscient 
>> beings and we can *do* evil. If such being(s) existed, it would not 
>> allow that, but there is evil...'
>> 
>> So if the Loving, Omnipotent and Omniscient Being tells us that this world's 
>> life is but a trial, that free-will has been given so that those who will 
>> willingly submit, be honest, just and kind, and whatever we suffer, we will 
>> be fully compensated for all injustices and wrongs...
>> You see, free will works both ways! And life comes with consequences... 
>> eternal consequences!
> 
> 
> Well if you want... but let me appreciate it for the BS it is... thanks.
> 
> Quentin
>  
>> 
>> Samiya
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On 28-Nov-2013, at 8:42 PM, Quentin Anciaux  wrote:
>> 
>> > Because we are not all loving, omnipotent, omniscient beings and we 
>> > can *do* evil. If such being(s) existed, it would not allow that, but 
>> > there is evil...
>> 
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> 
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> 
> -- 
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Re: Perception and cionsciousness according to Leibniz

[Bruno Marchal]

On 28 Nov 2013, at 12:12, Roger Clough wrote:


Perception and consciousness according to  Leibniz-

The secret of perception. Particular minds and how they relate to  
the overall or Cosmic Mind


The problem of perception in materialistic thinking is that it  
forces us to

think that there is a fleshly homunculus

Leibniz has a more complicated understanding of particular minds and  
how they relate to Cosmic Mind.


In Leibniz's metaphysics, there is only one mind (the Perceiver or  
Cosmic Mind or God) that
perceives and acts, doing this through the Surpreme (most dominant)  
monad.

It perceives the whole universe with perfect clarity.








That's consistent with comp.

(careful by Gödel, we know that consistency is cheap. "proving the  
false in PA" is consistent in PA. So there is a gap between  
consistency and truth).


let us try: God = arithmetical-truth Then it can act, in some sense,  
through the universal machines. It cannot perceives the whole universe  
with perfect clarity, but can perceive arbitrarily large parts of it.




Only it can perceive and act, because its monads (which includes our  
minds) have no windows.


That's weird. In my image, all monads (programs, machines, relative  
numbers) *are* sort of window.





The monads (our minds) perceive only indirectly, as the Supreme  
Monad is the only
--what we would call-- "conscious" mind. We only think and perceive  
indirectly,

as the Supreme Monad continually and instantly updates its universe of
monads. Thus there is no problem communing with God (the Cosmic Mind)
as we do so continually and necessarily, although only aqccording to  
our own abilities

and perspective.


OK. There are many techniques, and being alive is not a bad beginning.





That we ourselves, not God, appear to be the perceiver is thus only  
apparent.


Unless we are God. OK? (just amnesic, incognito, sleepy, etc.)






Also, because Cosmic Mind sees the entire universe as viewed by a  
kaleidoscope of
individual monads, the perceptions it returns to us contains not  
only what
we see (the universe from our own individual perspectives) but what  
the
perceptions of all of the other monads. Thus each monad knows  
everything
in the universe, but only from its own perspective, and monads being  
monads,

not perfectly clear but distorted.


OK. That makes sense with computationalism,  God = Arithmetical-Truth,  
monads are the body/machines/local-representations/relative-numbers/ 
programs. The supreme monad = the universal number (or language, that  
Leibniz missed, but was very close). Then, with the Theaetetus' knower  
(Bp & p), what you say can make sense.


Keep in mind, Roger,  that with mechanism (thought = computations),  
even weak-materialism (the idea that that matter exists in some  
primitive way, or the idea that we have to assume matter) is  
inconsistent (with the usual Occam, without which "science" has  
basically no meaning to me).


God created the natural numbers, all the rest is a self-organizing  
multi-user video-dream, with many participants, not all being  
machines. There is a nice mathematics making this comparable with  
physics, so we can test that theology.


At first sight, it is completely crazy, but the question is:  is it as  
much crazy as the quantum reality?


Bruno






http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

[Samiya Illias]

Quentin wrote: 'Because we are not all loving, omnipotent, omniscient 
beings and we can *do* evil. If such being(s) existed, it would not allow 
that, but there is evil...' 

So if the Loving, Omnipotent and Omniscient Being tells us that this world's 
life is but a trial, that free-will has been given so that those who will 
willingly submit, be honest, just and kind, and whatever we suffer, we will be 
fully compensated for all injustices and wrongs... 
You see, free will works both ways! And life comes with consequences... eternal 
consequences! 

Samiya 

Sent from my iPhone

On 28-Nov-2013, at 8:42 PM, Quentin Anciaux  wrote:

> Because we are not all loving, omnipotent, omniscient beings and we can 
> *do* evil. If such being(s) existed, it would not allow that, but there is 
> evil...

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Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

[John Clark]

On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:36 AM, Bruno Marchal  wrote:

 >>  the Christian God who is the most unpleasant  character in all of
>> fiction.
>>
>
> > It really depends on which Christians, which can be very different from
> one culture to another.
>

I know some people who call themselves Christian but who are nevertheless
very nice people, but that can only happen because they don't take their
religion as seriously as some, most Muslims for example. Instead they go
through the Bible and embrace the stuff they regard as moral, like being
kind to your fellow human beings, and ignoring the stuff they regard as
immoral, like God engaging in genocide in the Old Testament and Jesus
approving of eternal damnation in the New Testament. The Bible is such a
big chaotic mess of contradictory moral advice that no matter what your
personal views of ethics are you can be certain to find a passage in that
book that you like; and that tells me that morality has nothing to do with
religion in general or the Bible in particular.


> > I use God for any transcendental reality,
>

What's the difference between reality and transcendental reality? There
must be a difference, otherwise if you told be "I believe in God" I would
have received no new information about you that I didn't already have
because I already knew that anyone smart enough to walk and chew gum at the
same time believes in reality.


> > which implies some experience, and some faith
>

Yes I understand all that, I know that faith is required to believe in God,
but what I don't understand is why that is supposed to be a virtue.

>> For some reason that I don't fully understand you just want to make the
>> following sound with your mouth "I believe in God" and it doesn't matter
>> what the sound means.
>>
>
>  > You can replace the term "God" by the term "Reality" or "Truth
>

That is true, you can replace the term "God" by the term "Reality" or
"Truth,, but you don't.  And the reason you don't is not profound and has
absolutely nothing to do with mathematics or philosophy; you don't because
for some mysterious reason you've fallen in love with the sound your mouth
makes  when it pronounces the word "G-O-D".  There is no other reason.

> The problem is that most people take a reality fro granted,
>

Well I take the reality of reality for granted, but you almost make that
sound like a bad thing.


> > but in the comp theory that is probably a sort of illusion.
>

A illusion is a perfectly real subjective phenomenon, and the above
beautifully illustrates what I mean when I say that I have no idea what in
hell your homemade word "comp" means even though you've been talking about
it for years.

  John K Clark

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Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

[Quentin Anciaux]

2013/11/28 Samiya Illias 

> Quentin wrote: 'Because we are not all loving, omnipotent, omniscient
> beings and we can *do* evil. If such being(s) existed, it would not
> allow that, but there is evil...'
>
> So if the Loving, Omnipotent and Omniscient Being tells us that this
> world's life is but a trial, that free-will has been given so that those
> who will willingly submit, be honest, just and kind, and whatever we
> suffer, we will be fully compensated for all injustices and wrongs...
> You see, free will works both ways! And life comes with consequences...
> eternal consequences!
>


Well if you want... but let me appreciate it for the BS it is... thanks.

Quentin


>
> Samiya
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 28-Nov-2013, at 8:42 PM, Quentin Anciaux  wrote:
>
> > Because we are not all loving, omnipotent, omniscient beings and we
> can *do* evil. If such being(s) existed, it would not allow that, but there
> is evil...
>
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Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

[Quentin Anciaux]

2013/11/28 Samiya Illias 

> Quentin wrote: ' if there was an all loving god, it wouldn't allow for
> hell and evil..'
>
> Why do we need courts and jails and police on Earth if its such an
> unloving thing to do justice?
>
>
Because we are not all loving, omnipotent, omniscient beings and we can
*do* evil. If such being(s) existed, it would not allow that, but there is
evil...

Quentin



> Samiya
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 28-Nov-2013, at 8:18 PM, Quentin Anciaux  wrote:
>
> > if there was an all loving god, it wouldn't allow for hell and evil..
>
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Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

[Samiya Illias]

Quentin wrote: ' if there was an all loving god, it wouldn't allow for hell and 
evil..' 

Why do we need courts and jails and police on Earth if its such an unloving 
thing to do justice? 

Samiya 

Sent from my iPhone

On 28-Nov-2013, at 8:18 PM, Quentin Anciaux  wrote:

> if there was an all loving god, it wouldn't allow for hell and evil..

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Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

[Quentin Anciaux]

2013/11/28 Samiya Illias 

> Bruno wrote: 'I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They
> did invented the God used by both the abramanic cultures (even if terribly
> deformed, notably by the abandon of science about it, and the use of
> authoritative arguments, by Christians, Muslims, and perhaps by the Jewish
> (with Maimonides, to some extent).
>
> It is not because we have found strong evidence that the Earth is NOT
> flat, that Earth has disappeared.  We just correct our theory of Earth. Why
> couldn't we do that with the notion of God?'
> 
>
> The God of Abrahamic faiths is the Deity. We believe that He is the only
> God from time immemorial. All prophets preceding Abraham also spoke of the
> same God. Unfortunately, over ages most belief systems degenerate into a
> pantheon of gods 'in the image of humans'.
> The God I believe in is the majestic, indescribable, unimaginable,
> majestic Creator and Sustainer of everything.
> Unfortunately, instead of focussing on and understanding God's message of
> love and justice, people misunderstand the warnings of not qualifying for
> Heaven and blame / reject a God who warns of Hell as the consequence of
> injustice.
> Rejecting God won't make any difference to God or His plan. We need Him
> and His guidance,


I don't... that doesn't mean I'm immoral and deserve Hell... if there was
an all loving god, it wouldn't allow for hell and evil... this problem as a
name "the problem of evil" and it has no satisfying answer if such god
truly exist. Anyway, I absolutely don't need any faith in any sort of
personified god to live.

Quentin


> not the other way round!
>
> Samiya
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 28-Nov-2013, at 6:52 PM, Bruno Marchal  wrote:
>
> > I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They did invented
> the God used by both the abramanic cultures (even if terribly deformed,
> notably by the abandon of science about it, and the use of authoritative
> arguments, by Christians, Muslims, and perhaps by the Jewish (with
> Maimonides, to some extent).
> >
> > It is not because we have found strong evidence that the Earth is NOT
> flat, that Earth has disappeared.  We just correct our theory of Earth. Why
> couldn't we do that with the notion of God?
>
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Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

[Samiya Illias]

Bruno wrote: 'I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They did 
invented the God used by both the abramanic cultures (even if terribly 
deformed, notably by the abandon of science about it, and the use of 
authoritative arguments, by Christians, Muslims, and perhaps by the Jewish 
(with Maimonides, to some extent).

It is not because we have found strong evidence that the Earth is NOT flat, 
that Earth has disappeared.  We just correct our theory of Earth. Why couldn't 
we do that with the notion of God?'


The God of Abrahamic faiths is the Deity. We believe that He is the only God 
from time immemorial. All prophets preceding Abraham also spoke of the same 
God. Unfortunately, over ages most belief systems degenerate into a pantheon of 
gods 'in the image of humans'. 
The God I believe in is the majestic, indescribable, unimaginable, majestic 
Creator and Sustainer of everything. 
Unfortunately, instead of focussing on and understanding God's message of love 
and justice, people misunderstand the warnings of not qualifying for Heaven and 
blame / reject a God who warns of Hell as the consequence of injustice. 
Rejecting God won't make any difference to God or His plan. We need Him and His 
guidance, not the other way round! 

Samiya 


Sent from my iPhone

On 28-Nov-2013, at 6:52 PM, Bruno Marchal  wrote:

> I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They did invented the 
> God used by both the abramanic cultures (even if terribly deformed, notably 
> by the abandon of science about it, and the use of authoritative arguments, 
> by Christians, Muslims, and perhaps by the Jewish (with Maimonides, to some 
> extent).
> 
> It is not because we have found strong evidence that the Earth is NOT flat, 
> that Earth has disappeared.  We just correct our theory of Earth. Why 
> couldn't we do that with the notion of God?

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Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

[Bruno Marchal]

On 27 Nov 2013, at 23:36, meekerdb wrote:


On 11/27/2013 7:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 26 Nov 2013, at 18:56, John Clark wrote:



On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 4:32 AM, Bruno Marchal   
wrote:


> Atheism is also the belief in NO afterlife,

Those are 2 separate ideas and there is no reason they must be  
linked.  There could be a God and no afterlife or a afterlife and  
no God; or neither could exist or both could.


If you are able to conceive a god without afterlife, it means you  
can conceive a non Christian God, which is nice, but contradicts  
the main atheist statements you already did in preceding  
conversations.


How does being able to conceive a non-Christian God contradict being  
an atheist??  I can conceive many different gods that I don't  
believe in.


Can you conceive a God in which you do believe?

That was for John Clark who defined once God by the Christian God.

Also, if you can conceive a Non Christian God, it becomes more  
difficult to *believe* in the non existence of God.







We might try to decide on a definition of "atheism", as that notion  
is very unclear, and I have rarely obtain a definition on which  
atheists agreed.


It's as clear as the negation of 'theist'.


But "theist" is not clear. Some identify "God" with the God of their  
own culture. In science, we try to get a concept as independent of  
human and culture as possible.










I use "God" in the greek sense of Truth (the one that we can search  
about us, or hope or fear, in life and afterlife, whatever it is).


Except nobody here is speaking Greek.  And the Greeks had plenty of  
gods that had nothing to do with truth; in fact they were given to  
deception.


I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They did  
invented the God used by both the abramanic cultures (even if terribly  
deformed, notably by the abandon of science about it, and the use of  
authoritative arguments, by Christians, Muslims, and perhaps by the  
Jewish (with Maimonides, to some extent).


It is not because we have found strong evidence that the Earth is NOT  
flat, that Earth has disappeared.  We just correct our theory of  
Earth. Why couldn't we do that with the notion of God?


Bruno





Brent

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Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

[Bruno Marchal]

On 27 Nov 2013, at 20:04, John Clark wrote:

On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Bruno Marchal   
wrote:


> If you are able to conceive a god without afterlife

I can conceive of a afterlife without God too.

> it means you can conceive a non Christian God,

Yes.

> which is nice

Certainly nicer than the Christian God who is the most unpleasant   
character in all of fiction.


It really depends on which Christians, which can be very different  
from one culture to another.


But I can relate with your feeling. Some "christian God" are very  
antipathetic, like the one who promise hell if you just don't love  
him, which I think makes it impossible to be loved.







> but contradicts the main atheist statements you already did in  
preceding conversations.


I don't see how. I can conceive of Harry Potter too but that doesn't  
mean I think it likely he exists, although the probability that Mr.  
Potter really exists would be far greater than the probability the  
Christian God exists.


> We might try to decide on a definition of "atheism", as that  
notion is very unclear,


The only reason its unclear is that your meaning of the word G-O-D  
is very very unclear; and the reason for that is you've fallen in  
love with the English word G-O-D even though you've abandoned the  
idea behind it.


Already Plato used it in two different sense, which are hard to  
relate. The God of the Timaeus is quite different from the God of the  
Parmenides.
I use God for any transcendental reality, which implies some  
experience, and some faith, if only in our sanity.




For some reason that I don't fully understand you just want to make  
the following sound with your mouth "I believe in God" and it  
doesn't matter what the sound means.


You can replace the term "God" by the term "Reality" or "Truth". The  
problem is that most people take a reality fro granted, but in the  
comp theory that is probably a sort of illusion. To believe in a  
reality is akin to believe in its own consistency, and this asks for a  
cautious type of act of faith.
Machines' theology is very close to Plotinus or Proclus theology, and  
I am just using the same word, which is rather standard in the  
scholars writing, and among the non-confessional philosophers.





> I use "God" in the greek sense of Truth

The Greeks believed it was true that Poseidon existed and was the  
brother of Zeus. I don't.


It is the fate of theories: to be wrong. It is not a reason to abandon  
an idea, but it is a reason to attempt to correct it. And the greeks  
already corrected their own theory many times.


Bruno



http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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An account of the historical suppression of Leibniz's forbidden knowledge

[Roger Clough]

An account of the historical (and continuing) suppression of Leibniz's 
"forbidden" ideas

Leibniz was an anti-materialist so that his inclusion of Mind and
deity into his philosophy were forbidden ideas, and stillo are, to our 
detriment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTiztUNrhhM


Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
See my Leibniz site at
http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough

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Re: The death of analytic philosophy and the birth of consciousness

[Bruno Marchal]

On 27 Nov 2013, at 14:11, Roger Clough wrote:


The death of analytic philosophy and the birth of consciousness
Consciousness, which is experience by the first person singular,
is by definition outside of the scope of analytic philosophy, which
is limited to be able to only deal in descriptions of experience.

Definition  of  ANALYTIC  PHILOSOPHY
"a  philosophical  movement  that  seeks  the  solution  of   
philosophical  problems
in  the  analysis   of  propositions  or  sentences  ?alled  also   
philosophical  analysis

compare  ordinary-language  philosophy. "

Analytic  (British)  philosophy  (Bertrand  Russell, Anthony Flew.  
etc.)

limits  philosophy to  word and logic  puzzles and thus legitimizes
atheism and materialism. This has given rise to a semi-religious
cult or atheism and materialism that cannot  tell  us  about
experiential human  issues  such  as  consciousness, religion,  and  
true ai.

Or meaningful issues such as ethics or aesthetics.

However,  continental  philosophy  and Indian philosophy can.
(Leibniz,  Kant, Indian philosophers).


Analytical philosophy can do that too. For contingent reasons,  
analytical philosophers rarely do that, nor do logicians do that. But  
they can, and should, and fortunately, computer science makes this  
utterly clear, by showing that machines confronted with themselves  
cannot avoid the (meta)description of personal first person features  
which provably admit no description at all.


Bruno





Dr.  Roger  B  Clough  NIST  (ret.)  [1/1/2000]
See  my  Leibniz  site  at
http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough



Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
See my Leibniz site at
http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough

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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Perception and cionsciousness according to Leibniz

[Roger Clough]

Perception and consciousness according to  Leibniz-

The secret of perception. Particular minds and how they relate to the overall 
or Cosmic Mind 

The problem of perception in materialistic thinking is that it forces us to 
think that there is a fleshly homunculus 

Leibniz has a more complicated understanding of particular minds and how they 
relate to Cosmic Mind. 

In Leibniz's metaphysics, there is only one mind (the Perceiver or Cosmic Mind 
or God) that 
perceives and acts, doing this through the Surpreme (most dominant) monad. 
It perceives the whole universe with perfect clarity. 

Only it can perceive and act, because its monads (which includes our minds) 
have no windows. 
The monads (our minds) perceive only indirectly, as the Supreme Monad is the 
only 
--what we would call-- "conscious" mind. We only think and perceive indirectly, 
as the Supreme Monad continually and instantly updates its universe of 
monads. Thus there is no problem communing with God (the Cosmic Mind) 
as we do so continually and necessarily, although only aqccording to our own 
abilities 
and perspective. 

That we ourselves, not God, appear to be the perceiver is thus only apparent. 

Also, because Cosmic Mind sees the entire universe as viewed by a kaleidoscope 
of 
individual monads, the perceptions it returns to us contains not only what 
we see (the universe from our own individual perspectives) but what the 
perceptions of all of the other monads. Thus each monad knows everything 
in the universe, but only from its own perspective, and monads being monads, 
not perfectly clear but distorted. 


Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
See my Leibniz site at
http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough

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