[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: So where do you fall on the bhakti question? I think it's a lot like love -- wonderful when unforced and when it happens naturally, usually a disaster when one has a bunch of expectations and rules about how it's supposed to work. In other words, if you made the decision to pursue a bhakti path, you probably aren't on one. :-) Well said! Innocent affinity (or not) and unfoldment is the only way that works- otherwise it is just strain... So what if your guru DOES ask you to wear a crown in public? Is it a strain to agonize about your decision to follow this? If you have to ponder it, even for an instant, you're not a bhakti, no matter what you tell yourself you are. This is your definition of bhakti? No wonder that with such a definition of bhakti you run into major problems. No problems. Bhakti is your path, not mine. It would be a 'problem' only if you were trying to sell it. Oh. Never mind. :-) That makes it clear why Barry thinks there is an inherent problem in it, and why he doesn't want to have anything to do with it anymore. As you have been so quick to point out, especially when avoiding the practical implications of bhakti, *you* get to come up with *your* own definition of bhakti. Now when I present part of mine, it's a 'problem.' You don't seen a slight issue with this? :-) While I agree with the 'innocent affinity', in real life you simply will have to ponder, and their will be conflicts between mind and heart etc. Thats part of the path. But...but...but...I was talking about the sentiment of bhakti. That, to me, is synonymous with being in the first stages of romantic love, head over heels with someone. I'm confused. When I asked *you* about bhaki, you kept falling back on this 'sentiment' idea, and refusing to deal with the practical implications of bhakti the path. Now when I talk about what I consider the 'sentiment' of bhakti, it's a 'problem.' Could you explain this 'problem' to me? :-) Its also my experience that before this occurance of bhakti, there is an occurance of an aspiration about it, a desire to know about it. That may have been how it *was* for you, and that's fine. Me, I would call this 'aspiration' 'mood-making,' but you're free to use whatever term you want. Unlike you, I don't see a 'problem' with that. :-) Then, at one point, through some help... More mood-making? :-) ...it may just happen. But then you have to live with it... You're not possibly talking about the *implications* of bhakti that you refused to talk about yesterday, are you? :-) ...and all the different parts of your being will be exposed to it, and 'react', und you will have to deal with that. Not to mention the implications for how you behave. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: What is Art?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mrfishey2001 mrfishey2001@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: So are Charles Shultz comic strips art? When asked once about a useful, workable definition for art Michael Peter Cain offered the following: Art is that thing in human consciousness that resists explanation. When we start to define it, it moves and becomes something else. Today perhpas heÕs moved on to a different idea. Anyone close enough to ask? I believe he in in India now but I could ask for an update. He comes into my shop now and then for some help on some of his art projects. We don't agree on what art is as I would call a shiny new Kenworth truck art but we still get on well. N. Fits with the definition -- it moves when you try to define it. :-) I saw a couple of pieces of movable art just yesterday, a gorgeous Ducati motorcycle and a Ferrari Testarossa. They move, too...and quickly. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The effortless technique alluded to
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, coshlnx [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Concerning the (other than TM) effortless technique alluded to but unnamed by the contributor, this sounds like Vipassana, or mindfulness. Since you probably mean me, no, not mindfulness. That's different, and definitely requires some effort. The techniques I'm referring to have to do with just paying attention to whatever is already going on with mind and body. No mantra, no intention, no nothing but sitting quietly (or walking) and paying attention. Nothing to come back to, nowhere to go, just Being There. These are *not* the same techniques I referred to a few days ago that (for me) produce long periods of transcendence; those were (and are) concentration- based. I've grown to like them, but I doubt that Shemp (who was specifically asking about 'effortless' techniques) would. Personally, I don't need it since TM works fine for me and given enough years of TM practice, everything becomes mindfulness anyway; so I have nothing to gain by that practice. Whatever turns you on, fine, go for it. But consider this.: the very first time I transcended was during the TM intiation, after repetition of the mantra a few times. I doubt that this (transcendance) would have occurred so quickly had I started with Vipassana. I wasn't talking about Vipassana, but I know people who would disagree with you, and who experienced transcendence early on with their techniques. I've never really been exposed to the Vipassana tradition per se other than noticing that they (laudably) teach for free, so I can't comment from experience. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: So where do you fall on the bhakti question? I think it's a lot like love -- wonderful when unforced and when it happens naturally, usually a disaster when one has a bunch of expectations and rules about how it's supposed to work. In other words, if you made the decision to pursue a bhakti path, you probably aren't on one. :-) Well said! Innocent affinity (or not) and unfoldment is the only way that works- otherwise it is just strain... So what if your guru DOES ask you to wear a crown in public? Is it a strain to agonize about your decision to follow this? No guru. No question. Careful. t3rinity will say there is something lacking in your life. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 9, 2006, at 5:00 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Mar 9, 2006, at 2:12 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Mar 9, 2006, at 1:00 PM, shempmcgurk wrote: I genuinely want to know which techniques out there are effortless and do not require concentration. You must've missed the TM is not effortless thread here sometime ago. I recall a really hilarious post from you that purported to show how the TM checking routine proves TM is not effortless. Oddly enough, you canceled that post not long after. Funny I don't recall that. That *is* strange. When I asked you whether you'd willing to repost it on alt.m.t, or have me repost it if you didn't want to bother looking for it, you went ballistic: - On 2005-05-20 12:25:06 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Say, Vaj, yesterday you made a long post to Fairfield Life analyzing the TM checking instructions in an attempt to show where effort is involved. I'm not posting to Fairfield Life, but I have a few comments to make if you'd like to repost it here, or would give me permission to do so. Actually it was not about checking, and no YOU ABSOLUTELY DO NOT HAVE PERMISSION TO POST IT HERE OR ELSEWHERE IN WHOLE OR IN PART. This material is copyrighted by me, for me. Any violation by publishing it elsewhere will constitute violation of said copyright on this already published item. - It was, of course, about checking; you quoted gobs of the checking procedure (although you did so quite misleadingly, collapsing the algorithm in an attempt to make your point). You even went so far as to *copyright* it. You sure must have thought it was important at the time, but for some very strange reason you freaked out at the idea of reposting it to alt.m.t. Right after I'd asked you to repost it or give me permission to repost it, you zoomed over to FFL and canceled it. And now you don't remember it at all. How *very* odd, when it seemed to be such a huge deal at the time. Although once the point was made clearly, there was little else to say--although some people love to keep arguing beyond reason. Ah, but the point wasn't made at all. You seriously misinterpreted a good part of the checking instructions you had posted. snip What *exactly* did he say? I've heard that what he said was TM is effortless effort. PR as part of one the quantum mechanics spiels no doubt. I wonder why you have such a difficult time answering questions directly. But I gather you don't know what he said after all. And no, of course it had nothing to do with quantum mechanics. It was in response to a question about effort in meditation. I would maintain that those who don't think TM is effortless *are not doing it effortlessly*. I would maintain they are not familiar with real effortless meditation and simply enjoying their easy meditation method, that's all. On the basis of your post using the checking procedure to demonstrate that TM involves effort, it's crystal clear that you never got what is really meant by effortless or why no effort is involved in TM. Which means you almost certainly were not doing it effortlessly in the first place. Wow, tat's a lot of words! The simple answer is this: Checking shows how the mechanics of effort are used. When I learned TM (Deep Meditation) in 1962, by the first meditation teacher in Norway, we learned to concentrate about the Mantra. Some years after - the instruction became Don't concentrate, and the checking points came out. Ingegerd Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I learned TM (Deep Meditation) in 1962, by the first meditation teacher in Norway, we learned to concentrate about the Mantra. Some years after - the instruction became Don't concentrate, and the checking points came out. Ingegerd, your experience MUST be wrong, because it doesn't agree with what Judy and Lawson say. You *know* that they are always RIGHT, and that by definition anyone else who has a different experience or heard something different from Maharishi is WRONG. After all, their vision (never having actually met Maharishi and thus dealing with the zeitgeist of his teachings) is clear and unclouded, and they learned TM *correctly*, whereas those who have actually met Maharishi and worked with him intimately for years did not. Presumably his holy presence caused confusion. And you *know* that TM *never* changed over the years as a result of trail and error...it was presented to Maharishi full-blown in all its perfection on a lotus leaf, garlanded with pushpams, carried by a host of dakinis in thong bikinis. (And believe me...a bikini top is hard to fit when you have six arms.) In short, watch yo mouth. You don't want to disagree with the definers of TRUTH on Fairfield Life, do you? :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: BS. You're supposed to start by thinking something in particular (the mantra). I've practiced techniques in which no such artificiality is required. What is the specific thing you're thinking? How do you know its your mantra? There *is* no mantra, or any other such artificiality, in the techniques I'm talking about. They are truly effortless, involving nothing more than paying atten- tion to what is already going on. Ah, so how does an ADHD like myself pay attention to what is going on? You'll never know, because you will never be willing to try anything but TM. Right? I never try TM... Nice Polly...have a cracker. :-) My point was, and is, that you're doing a Shemp here. You have no real interest in the technique I mentioned, because YOU WILL NEVER BE WILLING TO TRY IT OUT. You are sold on TM, and there is nothing wrong with that. What you were after was to get into an intellectual debate about something you've never experienced and never will, to prove the supremacy of TM. I cut to the chase. How this technique would work for you and your ADHD is a matter of *experience*, not theory. You'll *never know* how it would work for you, because you will never be open to having that experience. End of story. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Man sells his soul on Ebay
There is possibly a great opportunity here for the TM True Believers in our midst. Rather than trying to convert the apostates here, they could sell them- selves on Ebay as knowers of the Truth and try to convert someone who is actually interested... :-) On eBay, Atheist Puts Own Soul on Auction Block The Winning Bidder Offers Unusual Deal: Visit Churches and Critique By SUZANNE SATALINE, The Wall Street Journal The DePaul University graduate student promised the winner that for each $10 of the final bid, he would attend an hour of church services. The 23-year-old Mr. Mehta is an atheist, but he says he suspected he had been missing out on something. Perhaps being around a group of people who will show me 'the way' could do what no one else has done before, Mr. Mehta wrote in his eBay sales pitch. This is possibly the best chance anyone has of changing me. Evangelists bid, eager to save a sinner. Atheists bid, hoping to keep Mr. Mehta in their fold. When the auction stopped on Feb. 3 after 41 bids, the buyer was Jim Henderson, a former evangelical minister from Seattle, whose $504 bid prevailed. Mr. Henderson wasn't looking for a convert. He wanted Mr. Mehta to embark with him on an eccentric experiment in spiritual bridge- building. The 58-year-old Mr. Henderson has written a book for a Random House imprint and is currently a house painter. He runs off-the-map.org, a Web site whose professed mission is Helping Christians be normal. Mr. Henderson is part of a small but growing branch of the evangelical world that disagrees with the majority's conservative political agenda, and wants the religion to be more inclusive and help the disadvantaged. Days after the auction, Mr. Henderson flew to Chicago to see Mr. Mehta, who is studying to be a math teacher. The two met in a bar, where they sealed a deal a little different from the one the student had proffered. Instead of the 50 hours of church attendance that he was entitled to for his $504, Mr. Henderson asked that Mr. Mehta attend 10 to 15 services of Mr. Henderson's choosing and then write about it. Mr. Mehta also agreed to provide running commentary on the church services on the off-the-map site and take questions -- bluntly sharing a nonbeliever's outlook on services that many consider sacred. The deal called for Mr. Henderson to donate the $504 to the Secular Student Alliance, a group headed by Mr. Mehta that has 55 chapters in the U.S. and abroad. I'm not trying to convert you, Mr. Henderson said at the bar. You're going there almost like a criticIf you happen to get converted, that's off the clock. For Mr. Mehta's first service, the two attended noon Mass at Old St. Patrick's, a Catholic church near Mr. Mehta's apartment. In the third pew from the rear, Mr. Mehta silently gazed at the statues and the worshipers' folded hands. He tried to follow along, but was a beat behind the congregation as it stood and knelt on cue. Mr. Henderson asked Mr. Mehta to score the priest, on a scale of one for boring to 10 for off the charts. Mr. Mehta gave him a three. More stories in the sermon, Mr. Mehta suggested -- and less liturgy. Asked about that advice, the Rev. John Cusick, who said the Mass that day, was unfazed: There's nothing he could say that I haven't heard 100 times over. Mr. Mehta's commentaries award sermons kudos for clarity, demerits for redundancy. After a service at Chicago's nondenominational Park Community Church, he criticized the preacher for repeatedly referring to a Bible verse in which the Galatians are called fools for doubting the divinity of Jesus -- without explaining why the passage was relevant to his congregation. The room, Mr. Mehta noted, was already full of people who didn't share the Galatians' doubts. Associate Pastor Ron May wrote in to thank Mr. Mehta: As the guy who spoke yesterday, I really appreciate the honest eval. (Unfortunately, a lot of the time you only get polite smoke...good job...thanks for the message.) Mr. Mehta was born in Chicago and raised in Jainism, an ancient Indian faith whose followers vow to harm no living thing, not even microbes in the air. He praises famous atheists, but has also read parts of the Bible, loves watching televangelists like Benny Hinn and Joel Osteen, and admires their appeal to congregations. If I could be an atheist pastor? he says, Oh God, that would be great! Mr. Henderson, who was a member of the Association of Vineyard Churches, a nondenominational ministry, says he preached for 25 years, but says he grew disenchanted because many of his peers were obsessed with gathering more believers and increasing their budgets. Off-the-map started as a hobby, an outgrowth of a long talk with a friend and co-founder Dave Richards, who had been a member of one of Mr. Henderson's congregations, about why they disliked evangelizing. Mr. Henderson began interviewing nonbelievers -- in front of audiences and video
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: So where do you fall on the bhakti question? I think it's a lot like love -- wonderful when unforced and when it happens naturally, usually a disaster when one has a bunch of expectations and rules about how it's supposed to work. In other words, if you made the decision to pursue a bhakti path, you probably aren't on one. :-) Well said! Innocent affinity (or not) and unfoldment is the only way that works- otherwise it is just strain... So what if your guru DOES ask you to wear a crown in public? Is it a strain to agonize about your decision to follow this? No guru. No question. Careful. t3rinity will say there is something lacking in your life. :-) You clearly get me terribly wrong, Barry. But maybe you want to get me wrong. If you have no love in your life, something is certainly missing. If you have no Guru, there are many other ways of relationship you can have. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Man sells his soul on Ebay
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mr. Mehta was born in Chicago and raised in Jainism, an ancient Indian faith whose followers vow to harm no living thing, not even microbes in the air. Have some fun: http://e-sheep.com/jain/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd marwincornyarmand@ wrote: When I learned TM (Deep Meditation) in 1962, by the first meditation teacher in Norway, we learned to concentrate about the Mantra. Some years after - the instruction became Don't concentrate, and the checking points came out. Ingegerd, your experience MUST be wrong, because it doesn't agree with what Judy and Lawson say. You *know* that they are always RIGHT, and that by definition anyone else who has a different experience or heard something different from Maharishi is WRONG. After all, their vision (never having actually met Maharishi and thus dealing with the zeitgeist of his teachings) is clear and unclouded, and they learned TM *correctly*, whereas those who have actually met Maharishi and worked with him intimately for years did not. Presumably his holy presence caused confusion. And you *know* that TM *never* changed over the years as a result of trail and error...it was presented to Maharishi full-blown in all its perfection on a lotus leaf, garlanded with pushpams, carried by a host of dakinis in thong bikinis. (And believe me...a bikini top is hard to fit when you have six arms.) In short, watch yo mouth. You don't want to disagree with the definers of TRUTH on Fairfield Life, do you? :-) You are so right. I apologize for not being humble enough for the TBs. I will from now on be very careful about what I say. The experiences was of various characters and will not fit the ears of the TBs. Ingegerd Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
I genuinely want to know which techniques out there are effortless and do not require concentration. You must've missed the TM is not effortless thread here sometime ago. TM is *easy* but not truly effortless. BS. No effort is required to do TM. Some effort may happen on occasssion, and obsessing about how much or how little, if any, is detrimental, but no effort is required. BS. You're supposed to start by thinking something in particular (the mantra). I've practiced techniques in which no such artificiality is required. Precisely my point. Sheesh you almost get the mpression these guys only have ever believed what they are told. Says Vaj, demonstrating without question that he never got the knack of TM. Again: It has nothing to do with what we were told. That's Vaj's and Barry's standard copout. It has to do with personal experience. Or lack thereof. Just for the purpose of intellectual argument (which it seems is what you're looking for), let's examine Vaj's statement above in the context of relative sets of experience. Vaj and I are talking about *contrasting* the effort- lessness of techniques we have personally practiced with the supposed effortlessness of TM. We have had experience of *both* types of meditation. Based on that *comparative* experience, both of us can comfort- ably say that other techniques are really effortless, whereas TM has a subtle degree of effort involved with it. (A notion that Maharishi himself is on record as agreeing with, a fact which both of you choose to ignore.) You and Judy have had experience with only *one* of them. Based on that, you seem to be claiming that TM *is* completely effortless. But neither of you has ever experienced a style of meditation that is *really* effortless, and that doesn't even involved thinking a particular thought (the mantra) or coming back to anything (again, the mantra). And you're chiding US on our lack of experience? I would suggest that Vaj is RIGHT ON with his sugges- tion that your entire stance is based on wHAT YOU WERE TOLD about TM's supposed effortlessness. You were told, over and over and over and over, that it is effortless, and now you can't even *conceive* of it being any other way. You *interpret* your personal experience as 'effortlessness,' because you were TOLD that it was effortlessness. You have no experience of what effortlessness might really BE in the world of meditation. But you're willing to claim that other people, who HAVE experienced a style of meditation that really IS effortless, are mistaken and that you are correct. Doncha just love the humility that TM instills in its adherents? :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd marwincornyarmand@ wrote: When I learned TM (Deep Meditation) in 1962, by the first meditation teacher in Norway, we learned to concentrate about the Mantra. Some years after - the instruction became Don't concentrate, and the checking points came out. Ingegerd, your experience MUST be wrong, because it doesn't agree with what Judy and Lawson say. You *know* that they are always RIGHT, and that by definition anyone else who has a different experience or heard something different from Maharishi is WRONG. After all, their vision (never having actually met Maharishi and thus dealing with the zeitgeist of his teachings) is clear and unclouded, and they learned TM *correctly*, whereas those who have actually met Maharishi and worked with him intimately for years did not. Presumably his holy presence caused confusion. And you *know* that TM *never* changed over the years as a result of trail and error...it was presented to Maharishi full-blown in all its perfection on a lotus leaf, garlanded with pushpams, carried by a host of dakinis in thong bikinis. (And believe me...a bikini top is hard to fit when you have six arms.) In short, watch yo mouth. You don't want to disagree with the definers of TRUTH on Fairfield Life, do you? :-) You are so right. I apologize for not being humble enough for the TBs. I will from now on be very careful about what I say. The experiences was of various characters and will not fit the ears of the TBs. It's all right, Ingegerd. Your humility in the face of perfection is admirable. After all, we are mere humans, and thus we occasionally may fall from the path of truth, righteousness, and eternal adherence to dogma. When that happens, it's important to have one or two superhuman beings in our midst to prod us and gently move us back to the true path. We should consider ourselves fortunate to have such holy beings here with us. If not for them, who *knows* what might happen? Some people might actually develop their own ideas about things, based on their own personal experiences. Can't have that... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] PVTM = ananta-samaapatti??
What do youse think of the idea that plain vanilla TM is actually ananta-samaapatti* mentioned in YS II 47? *) becoming endless (boundless, infinite, eternal) Taimni's translation for ananta-samaapatti is 'meditation on the Endless. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
So what if your guru DOES ask you to wear a crown in public? Is it a strain to agonize about your decision to follow this? No guru. No question. Careful. t3rinity will say there is something lacking in your life. :-) You clearly get me terribly wrong, Barry. But maybe you want to get me wrong. If you have no love in your life, something is certainly missing. If you have no Guru, there are many other ways of relationship you can have. I am just poking fun at you, hoping to help you LIGHTEN UP a bit. It doesn't seem to be working. You're just so fuckin' HEAVY and JUDGEMENTAL about all this stuff, dude. Just look at what you wrote above. Based on the fact that I don't follow a bhakti path and am willing to look at both the up-sides and down-sides of bhakti (both of which definitely exist), you declare that there is no love in my life. You don't know me AT ALL. You don't know anything about the 400 gopis who visit me nightly to dance with my enchanted flute. I love them all dearly. Not to mention the sheep with whom I have a *very* loving relationship. :-) Seriously, dude...you *really* should consider lightening up. Just because someone follows a different path than you do doesn't mean that they're lower than you or that something is missing from their life. If you realized that, I suspect you'd be a lot happier with your *own* path. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd marwincornyarmand@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd marwincornyarmand@ wrote: When I learned TM (Deep Meditation) in 1962, by the first meditation teacher in Norway, we learned to concentrate about the Mantra. Some years after - the instruction became Don't concentrate, and the checking points came out. Ingegerd, your experience MUST be wrong, because it doesn't agree with what Judy and Lawson say. You *know* that they are always RIGHT, and that by definition anyone else who has a different experience or heard something different from Maharishi is WRONG. After all, their vision (never having actually met Maharishi and thus dealing with the zeitgeist of his teachings) is clear and unclouded, and they learned TM *correctly*, whereas those who have actually met Maharishi and worked with him intimately for years did not. Presumably his holy presence caused confusion. And you *know* that TM *never* changed over the years as a result of trail and error...it was presented to Maharishi full-blown in all its perfection on a lotus leaf, garlanded with pushpams, carried by a host of dakinis in thong bikinis. (And believe me...a bikini top is hard to fit when you have six arms.) In short, watch yo mouth. You don't want to disagree with the definers of TRUTH on Fairfield Life, do you? :-) You are so right. I apologize for not being humble enough for the TBs. I will from now on be very careful about what I say. The experiences was of various characters and will not fit the ears of the TBs. It's all right, Ingegerd. Your humility in the face of perfection is admirable. After all, we are mere humans, and thus we occasionally may fall from the path of truth, righteousness, and eternal adherence to dogma. When that happens, it's important to have one or two superhuman beings in our midst to prod us and gently move us back to the true path. We should consider ourselves fortunate to have such holy beings here with us. If not for them, who *knows* what might happen? Some people might actually develop their own ideas about things, based on their own personal experiences. Can't have that... Thanks to some of you in FFL, that have given me good advices - I have experienced myself - and I agree with you and Vaj. If somebody of the TBs ask me about the experiences - I am not going to tell about it. Ingegerd Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
On Mar 9, 2006, at 8:42 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 9, 2006, at 6:38 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: snip Wow, tat's a lot of words! Which you obviously don't want to deal with. Especially your oh-so-convenient forgettery with regard to your post on the checking procedure. The simple answer is this: Checking shows how the mechanics of effort are used. In fact, the simple answer is that checking shows how the mechanics of effort are *not* used. Again: If you didn't get this, you never got what TM is. The bottom line in this case is simple: if it uses patched placement, that is if it uses some method where the mind has to be brought back to *something* (in this case the mantra) in order to work, Right. Not the case with TM except in the early stages of practice. Think: What is the mind brought back *from* in TM? Exactly--that which needed patched. If it didn't need patched (if you didn't need to meditate), you'd experience the transcendent through all states! But if it is being brought back from the transcendent, it *is* being patched. Oh well, subtle effort. So much talk. (Vaj won't respond to this, just as Barry didn't respond to a similar question from Lawson.) it requires some effort. This is not a big deal, it just the mechanics involved. Don't worry so much. Rick has also shared some wise pointers on increasing mindfulness that M. suggested to prevent laxity--that too was an old post you probably missed. Very wise sharing on that by Rick (I also received a number of posts off list on that one where numerous people shared similar experiences). Oh, yes, we know, Vaj, you remind us often about how you have access to all *kinds* of privileged data. Well you heard the same thing if you were *listening*. He posted it here. Some of us aren't impressed. Well it's a two way street ya know. Really if you have questions You seem to be imagining things. I didn't ask a question. Actually you asked what Mahesh said specifically at Estes Park several times--so did your side kick. If you wanted specifics you should ask Rick or some one who was there (if you didn't get it on your own!). you should be asking Rick--an extremely experienced TM teacher and close friend of M.--what he said, how he said it, what his intent was on this. And then hopefully you can relax my dear. I really have nothing else to say--it's all been said. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So what if your guru DOES ask you to wear a crown in public? Is it a strain to agonize about your decision to follow this? No guru. No question. Careful. t3rinity will say there is something lacking in your life. :-) You clearly get me terribly wrong, Barry. But maybe you want to get me wrong. If you have no love in your life, something is certainly missing. If you have no Guru, there are many other ways of relationship you can have. I am just poking fun at you, hoping to help you LIGHTEN UP a bit. It doesn't seem to be working. You're just so fuckin' HEAVY and JUDGEMENTAL about all this stuff, dude. Again you judge me wrong, I'm not heavy on this, I just explain. Just look at what you wrote above. Based on the fact that I don't follow a bhakti path and am willing to look at both the up-sides and down-sides of bhakti (both of which definitely exist), you declare that there is no love in my life. Wrong. I said 'If' and the you can be substituted for a 'one', it wasn't a personal you. And I clearly explained several times, that I was not speaking about Bhakti as a path, but as a sentiment. But maybe you just didn't have your cup of coffee yet. You don't know me AT ALL. You don't know anything about the 400 gopis who visit me nightly to dance with my enchanted flute. I love them all dearly. Not to mention the sheep with whom I have a *very* loving relationship. :-) Seriously, dude...you *really* should consider lightening up. Barry, its difficult to judge people from internet output. This time I have to tell you: you don#t know me at all, lighten up. Just because someone follows a different path than you do doesn't mean that they're lower than you or that something is missing from their life. If you realized that, I suspect you'd be a lot happier with your *own* path. Don't know who stuck this into your head. Do you have an inferiority complex? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: So what if your guru DOES ask you to wear a crown in public? Is it a strain to agonize about your decision to follow this? No guru. No question. Careful. t3rinity will say there is something lacking in your life. :-) You clearly get me terribly wrong, Barry. But maybe you want to get me wrong. If you have no love in your life, something is certainly missing. If you have no Guru, there are many other ways of relationship you can have. I am just poking fun at you, hoping to help you LIGHTEN UP a bit. It doesn't seem to be working. You're just so fuckin' HEAVY and JUDGEMENTAL about all this stuff, dude. Again you judge me wrong, I'm not heavy on this, I just explain. In recent days, you have blasted both Ingegerd and myself for 'attacking' bhakti, when we didn't. That's not heavy? You were expressing your *own* sensitivity to someone questioning something you feel strongly against. I'd call that heavy. Just look at what you wrote above. Based on the fact that I don't follow a bhakti path and am willing to look at both the up-sides and down-sides of bhakti (both of which definitely exist), you declare that there is no love in my life. Wrong. I said 'If' and the you can be substituted for a 'one', it wasn't a personal you. It was a *joke*, dude, a setup for the gopi and sheep rap. :-) And I clearly explained several times, that I was not speaking about Bhakti as a path, but as a sentiment. But maybe you just didn't have your cup of coffee yet. Post here without my morning coffee? Perish the thought. :-) You don't know me AT ALL. You don't know anything about the 400 gopis who visit me nightly to dance with my enchanted flute. I love them all dearly. Not to mention the sheep with whom I have a *very* loving relationship. :-) Seriously, dude...you *really* should consider lightening up. Barry, its difficult to judge people from internet output. This time I have to tell you: you don#t know me at all, lighten up. Just because someone follows a different path than you do doesn't mean that they're lower than you or that something is missing from their life. If you realized that, I suspect you'd be a lot happier with your *own* path. Don't know who stuck this into your head. Could it have possibly been all those references from you about me lacking something in my life? :-) Do you have an inferiority complex? Yes, but it's not a very good one... :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But if it is being brought back from the transcendent, it *is* being patched. Oh well, subtle effort. Hmmmprayatna-shaithilya. YS II 47! To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: So what if your guru DOES ask you to wear a crown in public? Is it a strain to agonize about your decision to follow this? No guru. No question. Careful. t3rinity will say there is something lacking in your life. :-) You clearly get me terribly wrong, Barry. But maybe you want to get me wrong. If you have no love in your life, something is certainly missing. If you have no Guru, there are many other ways of relationship you can have. I am just poking fun at you, hoping to help you LIGHTEN UP a bit. It doesn't seem to be working. You're just so fuckin' HEAVY and JUDGEMENTAL about all this stuff, dude. Again you judge me wrong, I'm not heavy on this, I just explain. In recent days, you have blasted both Ingegerd and myself for 'attacking' bhakti, when we didn't. That's not heavy? Could you please tell me what the word bhakti means? - it would be nice to know what I am attacking? Ingegerd Ingegerd Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: So what if your guru DOES ask you to wear a crown in public? Is it a strain to agonize about your decision to follow this? No guru. No question. Careful. t3rinity will say there is something lacking in your life. :-) You clearly get me terribly wrong, Barry. But maybe you want to get me wrong. If you have no love in your life, something is certainly missing. If you have no Guru, there are many other ways of relationship you can have. I am just poking fun at you, hoping to help you LIGHTEN UP a bit. It doesn't seem to be working. You're just so fuckin' HEAVY and JUDGEMENTAL about all this stuff, dude. Again you judge me wrong, I'm not heavy on this, I just explain. In recent days, you have blasted both Ingegerd and myself for 'attacking' bhakti, when we didn't. That's not heavy? Could you please tell me what the word bhakti means? - it would be nice to know what I am attacking? Sorry. My mistake. I typed Ingegerd when I should have typed Irmeli. Bhakti is that thing that t3rinity thinks that Michael Dean Goodman practices, and that he blasted Irmeli for attacking when she criticized MDG's logic. The fact that, AFAIK, neither MDG or Irmeli ever used the word 'bhakti' and almost certainly didn't have bhakti in their minds when they wrote what they wrote has nothing to do with it. I think the equation is, if someone is challenging it, it's probably bhakti. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could you please tell me what the word bhakti means? - it would be nice to know what I am attacking? Definitions of bhakti on the Web: Worship, adoration, devotion, ecstatic love. (devotion/love): the love of the bhakta toward the Divine or the guru as a manifestation of the Divine; also the love of the Divine toward the devotee a rasa, or feeling, of devotion to a god portrayed in songs or raagas, usually. Most Carnatic songs have bhakti rasa. the spirit's expression of devotion to God that manifests physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually. Devotion; the expression of love for and surrender to God. personalized devotional worship love, devotion. One of the most common forms of yoga. The path of devotion; a path to union with the Divine based on the continual offering of love and the constant remembrance of the Lord. Worshipful devotion to the God-Man. Devotion to a deity or guru. Devotion; adoration as a path to awakening (Hinduism) loving devotion to a deity leading to salvation and Nirvana; open to all persons independent of caste or sex Bhakti is a Tamil or Sanskrit term from Hinduism that means devotion to god. A person who practices bhakti is called bhakta. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] PVTM = ananta-samaapatti??
Cardmeister writes: What do youse think of the idea that plain vanilla TM is actually ananta-samaapatti* mentioned in YS II 47? *) becoming endless (boundless, infinite, eternal) Taimni's translation for ananta-samaapatti is 'meditation on the Endless. Tom T: From Alistair Shearer YS II 46. The physical postures should be steady and comfortable. YS II 47. They are mastered when all effort is relaxed and the mind is absorbed in the infinite. Tom Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd marwincornyarmand@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: So what if your guru DOES ask you to wear a crown in public? Is it a strain to agonize about your decision to follow this? No guru. No question. Careful. t3rinity will say there is something lacking in your life. :-) You clearly get me terribly wrong, Barry. But maybe you want to get me wrong. If you have no love in your life, something is certainly missing. If you have no Guru, there are many other ways of relationship you can have. I am just poking fun at you, hoping to help you LIGHTEN UP a bit. It doesn't seem to be working. You're just so fuckin' HEAVY and JUDGEMENTAL about all this stuff, dude. Again you judge me wrong, I'm not heavy on this, I just explain. In recent days, you have blasted both Ingegerd and myself for 'attacking' bhakti, when we didn't. That's not heavy? Could you please tell me what the word bhakti means? - it would be nice to know what I am attacking? Sorry. My mistake. I typed Ingegerd when I should have typed Irmeli. Bhakti is that thing that t3rinity thinks that Michael Dean Goodman practices, and that he blasted Irmeli for attacking when she criticized MDG's logic. The fact that, AFAIK, neither MDG or Irmeli ever used the word 'bhakti' and almost certainly didn't have bhakti in their minds when they wrote what they wrote has nothing to do with it. I think the equation is, if someone is challenging it, it's probably bhakti. :- Thank you for explaning. Ingegerd Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
On Mar 10, 2006, at 3:56 AM, Ingegerd wrote: When I learned TM (Deep Meditation) in 1962, by the first meditation teacher in Norway, we learned to concentrate about the Mantra. Some years after - the instruction became Don't concentrate, and the checking points came out. Ingegerd That's interesting. I was just looking over the instruction materials which will be used for the Shamatha Project, a one year project where people will learn a TM-style of meditation and then practice for a year while they are examined via, EEG, fMRI, PET scans, etc. for changes. Instead of using a canned meditation method, they will actually learn three methods of Shamatha from those using effort/focus on a meditative object to those which are effortless. Now whether or not they will ask that just one be used for the research, I don't know, but they're teaching all three to give students the opportunity to fine tune what's best for them. I liked the idea of a continuum of practice rather than a fixed practice. The idea may be to progress from effor/ focus to true effortlessness as the student is able or if the student is able. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] For t3rinity
All this back-and-forth seems silly. I think you're just being overly sensitive about your chosen path and overreacting when people say things you feel criticize or challenge it. You probably disagree. It's Ok to have different paths, *and* to disagree. Let's allow the whole thing to drop, eh? I will attempt to be more sensitive in the future when pointing out some of the things I perceive as the down sides of bhakti as it is commonly taught (which may *not* be what you have learned or what you practice). I will still mention them if and when I think it's appropriate to do so, similar to the warning labels on useful medications that say something like, This medication is potentially really good for you and can produce numerous benefits. However, some people have really, really overdone it with this medication and totally fucked up their lives and the lives of others. Caveat emptor. Think Valium. Useful drug, but easily abused, and devastating to the user and those around him *when* abused. So I will probably continue to print my homemade warning labels from time to time, but I will try to do so more gently, and with more humor. You might consider doing the same, and thinking a bit before you react to things said on this forum that push your buttons. MDG really *wasn't* talking about bhakti; Irmeli really *wasn't* dumping on it. Neither of them had anything even remotely related to bhakti in their minds when they wrote what they wrote, as far as I can tell. What made it seem to you as if they did was your own oversensitivity to the issue and your tendency to see it and react to it. Sometimes, in my opinion, when the issue isn't even there. Bhakti is a wonderful path to enlightenment, but in my opinion one better followed than argued about. Signing off... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: PVTM = ananta-samaapatti??
Tom T: From Alistair Shearer YS II 46. The physical postures should be steady and comfortable. YS II 47. They are mastered when all effort is relaxed and the mind is absorbed in the infinite. This reminds me of the way my carriage changes when I ask, Who am I? My posture improves and my body relaxes, even though I have no intention to change anything physical. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 10, 2006, at 3:56 AM, Ingegerd wrote: When I learned TM (Deep Meditation) in 1962, by the first meditation teacher in Norway, we learned to concentrate about the Mantra. Some years after - the instruction became Don't concentrate, and the checking points came out. Ingegerd That's interesting. I was just looking over the instruction materials which will be used for the Shamatha Project, a one year project where people will learn a TM-style of meditation and then practice for a year while they are examined via, EEG, fMRI, PET scans, etc. for changes. Instead of using a canned meditation method, they will actually learn three methods of Shamatha from those using effort/focus on a meditative object to those which are effortless. Now whether or not they will ask that just one be used for the research, I don't know, but they're teaching all three to give students the opportunity to fine tune what's best for them. I liked the idea of a continuum of practice rather than a fixed practice. The idea may be to progress from effor/ focus to true effortlessness as the student is able or if the student is able. Interesting. If I understand you right - they will start with some concentration, then less consentration and then effortless practice, over time. It is the same as I read in some books about Hindu Meditation and a concentrated form of the instructions into TM today. In 1962, we received the Mantra, without the instructions given today. We were told to concentrate on the Mantra for 30 minutes. The next day - the teacher checked the Mantra - and that was it. Ingegerd Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: PVTM = ananta-samaapatti??
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: YS II 47. They are mastered when all effort is relaxed and the mind is absorbed in the infinite. Tom Using those words, the original suutra word-for-word would be something like: on effort-relaxation (and) infinite-absorption (They are mastered is the translators addition. It might be based on some of those numerous commentaries.) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Mar 10, 2006, at 3:56 AM, Ingegerd wrote: When I learned TM (Deep Meditation) in 1962, by the first meditation teacher in Norway, we learned to concentrate about the Mantra. Some years after - the instruction became Don't concentrate, and the checking points came out. Ingegerd That's interesting. I was just looking over the instruction materials which will be used for the Shamatha Project, a one year project where people will learn a TM-style of meditation and then practice for a year while they are examined via, EEG, fMRI, PET scans, etc. for changes. Instead of using a canned meditation method, they will actually learn three methods of Shamatha from those using effort/focus on a meditative object to those which are effortless. Now whether or not they will ask that just one be used for the research, I don't know, but they're teaching all three to give students the opportunity to fine tune what's best for them. I liked the idea of a continuum of practice rather than a fixed practice. The idea may be to progress from effor/ focus to true effortlessness as the student is able or if the student is able. Interesting. If I understand you right - they will start with some concentration, then less consentration and then effortless practice, over time. It is the same as I read in some books about Hindu Meditation and a concentrated form of the instructions into TM today. In 1962, we received the Mantra, without the instructions given today. We were told to concentrate on the Mantra for 30 minutes. The next day - the teacher checked the Mantra - and that was it. I think that Vaj was speculating, based on having found that the project offers three different methods of meditation to its subjects. But the idea of starting with concentration or focus and then moving to a more effortless focus *in the same meditation period* is hardly unique. Many of the concentration techniques I've learned were like that -- you start with a strong period of focus on a yantra or mantra or image or whatever, and then let go and have a period of no focus. Sometimes the technique involves bouncing back and forth between these two approaches in the same meditation. Caveat for the easily offended: The above statement implies neither good nor bad, better nor best; it's just what I was taught when learning those techniques. It isn't meant as a comment on your favorite style of meditation in any way. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Illusion of individuality; labels; true bhakti; the story of Guru Dev and his cave
THE STRUGGLE OF INDIVIDUALITY TO PERPETUATE ITS ILLUSION I feel compassionately sad whenever I meet those who still cling to the idea that their individuality (individual intellect) can guide them to the goal of realization, of remembering, of waking up again to Reality. They're sure that they don't need a guide on the path, don't need to surrender control, don't need to ask for help, and don't need to embrace their intellect's incompetence and impotence to handle the job. They are sure that their relative, finite intellect, bound in the world of space and time, can grok and master infinity, the field without boundaries, far beyond the ken of the relative intellect. That is delusion, that is arrogance of the deepest kind, that is the very essence of ignorance. Their individual ego/intellect has convinced them to trust it (not only to trust it, but to actually believe that they ARE it), and to never entertain the idea that the ego/intellect's assertion of its importance and ability to guide them back home IS ITSELF THE VERY CRUX OF THE PROBLEM, the very core of the ignorance. HIRING THE THIEF TO CATCH THE THIEF It is like hiring the master cat burglar (albeit in his clever dis- guise as the 'great detective') to solve the string of (his) burglar- ies. The great detective (master burglar) will will NEVER EVER turn himself in, never participate in his own exposure, but instead will always have some encouraging progress report, and some inspiring vi- sion of possibilities, to string us along as long as possible, as he secretly continues his life of crime. It is a very similar thing, to entrust our spiritual awakening to the ego/intellect consortium. They ARE the problem, and putting them in charge of solving the problem is lunacy. [Technically, the problem is our identification with them, our belief that we ARE them, that they are in charge, that they are all that there is.] The real solution is not to hire them to guide us to realization, but to let go of them and remember our true status as the infinite field that is beyond them. Instead of following them, we have to step out of their realm entirely, beyond where they can go, into the unbounded field of the Self. Then they revert back to their real status as our servants, as managers of the relative field of life - and let go of the delusion that they are hot stuff, in charge, the boss. DISCRIMINATION - THE PATH TO CC The path from ignorance to awakening IS a path of discrimination, but not discrimination by the relative intellect. It is the waking up of the cosmic intellect from its immersion in illusion, from its identification with boundaries, with individuality, from its belief that it ever was (solely) the relative intellect. It is the path of the infinite Self waking up, curving back on its Self, and stop- ping its old habit of getting stuck in the finite boundaries. It is the path of separating what is Real from what is not. And the rela- tive ego/intellect is in the field of what is not real, and there- fore hardly fit to lead us to the Real. It is the path of the cosmic intellect regaining its settled, even state of being established in its own, infinite Self (sama-dhi = evenness of intellect). BASED ON MY OWN EXPERIENCE - INDIVIDUAL INTELLECT TRYING TO FIGURE IT OUT I can say this so boldly, about the struggle of the individual ego/ intellect to perpetuate its illusion and never admit it needs help, because I was very, very much there once; I know how that feels. I have a very strong, powerful relative intellect. I have a deep ten- dency in my relative personality to believe in self-sufficiency, to hold that I can/must take care of myself, be vigilant, figure it out, protect myself, etc. So I tried figuring it out on my own (for many lifetimes, and for many years in this lifetime), sorting through the myriad philosophies, spi- ritual traditions, techniques, teachers... I tried interviewing various teachers, testing them, evaluating them. Until I met one that chose me. I thought I chose him; I thought I poked and prodded with my intellect and discovered someone where I couldn't find any holes, any inconsistencies, any weaknesses. But looking back, in hindsight, that belief was still part of my delusion of independence and power of my ego/intellect. In reality, it was just grace that he was offer- ed to me, it was just that I was ripe and being harvested by something so much beyond me, beyond the delusion of who I thought I was, that I couldn't conceive of It, much less evaluate and judge It. So It presented me brilliantly with just the right qualities in a teacher that allowed my ego/intellect to feel safe, to relax, to let the armor down just enough that the inexorable process could begin [or move into its final phase after all that preparation time]. INDIVIDUAL INTELLECT RELAXES, AND FINALLY SURRENDERS And even then it didn't happen all at once, my belief in the power of my relative ego/intellect didn't crumble, I
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd marwincornyarmand@ wrote: When I learned TM (Deep Meditation) in 1962, by the first meditation teacher in Norway, we learned to concentrate about the Mantra. Some years after - the instruction became Don't concentrate, and the checking points came out. Ingegerd, your experience MUST be wrong, because it doesn't agree with what Judy and Lawson say. Well, now, let's see, I can't recall saying, or seeing Lawson say, anything about having learned TM in 1962 or the words used in instruction then. Do you recall either of us having said something along those lines? Or are you fantasizing again? You *know* that they are always RIGHT, and that by definition anyone else who has a different experience or heard something different from Maharishi is WRONG. After all, their vision (never having actually met Maharishi and thus dealing with the zeitgeist of his teachings) is clear and unclouded, and they learned TM *correctly*, whereas those who have actually met Maharishi and worked with him intimately for years did not. Gosh, I can't recall either Lawson or I having said anything along those lines either. Presumably his holy presence caused confusion. And you *know* that TM *never* changed over the years as a result of trail and error... Or anything like this. Barry, you really need to get some help with your hallucinations. it was presented to Maharishi full-blown in all its perfection on a lotus leaf, garlanded with pushpams, carried by a host of dakinis in thong bikinis. (And believe me...a bikini top is hard to fit when you have six arms.) In short, watch yo mouth. You don't want to disagree with the definers of TRUTH on Fairfield Life, do you? :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: BS. You're supposed to start by thinking something in particular (the mantra). I've practiced techniques in which no such artificiality is required. What is the specific thing you're thinking? How do you know its your mantra? There *is* no mantra, or any other such artificiality, in the techniques I'm talking about. They are truly effortless, involving nothing more than paying atten- tion to what is already going on. Ah, so how does an ADHD like myself pay attention to what is going on? You'll never know, because you will never be willing to try anything but TM. Right? I never try TM... Nice Polly...have a cracker. :-) My point was, and is, that you're doing a Shemp here. You have no real interest in the technique I mentioned, because YOU WILL NEVER BE WILLING TO TRY IT OUT. You are sold on TM, and there is nothing wrong with that. What you were after was to get into an intellectual debate about something you've never experienced and never will, to prove the supremacy of TM. And yet you're using an intellectual description of how this technique is practiced to prove that there are techniques that use less effort than TM. But somehow in your alleged mind Lawson isn't allowed to ask you a question about that description. Your intellectual statement, as far as you're concerned, ends the debate. I cut to the chase. How this technique would work for you and your ADHD is a matter of *experience*, not theory. You'll *never know* how it would work for you, because you will never be open to having that experience. End of story. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Mar 9, 2006, at 5:00 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Mar 9, 2006, at 2:12 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Mar 9, 2006, at 1:00 PM, shempmcgurk wrote: I genuinely want to know which techniques out there are effortless and do not require concentration. You must've missed the TM is not effortless thread here sometime ago. I recall a really hilarious post from you that purported to show how the TM checking routine proves TM is not effortless. Oddly enough, you canceled that post not long after. Funny I don't recall that. That *is* strange. When I asked you whether you'd willing to repost it on alt.m.t, or have me repost it if you didn't want to bother looking for it, you went ballistic: - On 2005-05-20 12:25:06 -0400, jst...@ said: Say, Vaj, yesterday you made a long post to Fairfield Life analyzing the TM checking instructions in an attempt to show where effort is involved. I'm not posting to Fairfield Life, but I have a few comments to make if you'd like to repost it here, or would give me permission to do so. Actually it was not about checking, and no YOU ABSOLUTELY DO NOT HAVE PERMISSION TO POST IT HERE OR ELSEWHERE IN WHOLE OR IN PART. This material is copyrighted by me, for me. Any violation by publishing it elsewhere will constitute violation of said copyright on this already published item. - It was, of course, about checking; you quoted gobs of the checking procedure (although you did so quite misleadingly, collapsing the algorithm in an attempt to make your point). You even went so far as to *copyright* it. You sure must have thought it was important at the time, but for some very strange reason you freaked out at the idea of reposting it to alt.m.t. Right after I'd asked you to repost it or give me permission to repost it, you zoomed over to FFL and canceled it. And now you don't remember it at all. How *very* odd, when it seemed to be such a huge deal at the time. Although once the point was made clearly, there was little else to say--although some people love to keep arguing beyond reason. Ah, but the point wasn't made at all. You seriously misinterpreted a good part of the checking instructions you had posted. snip What *exactly* did he say? I've heard that what he said was TM is effortless effort. PR as part of one the quantum mechanics spiels no doubt. I wonder why you have such a difficult time answering questions directly. But I gather you don't know what he said after all. And no, of course it had nothing to do with quantum mechanics. It was in response to a question about effort in meditation. I would maintain that those who don't think TM is effortless *are not doing it effortlessly*. I would maintain they are not familiar with real effortless meditation and simply enjoying their easy meditation method, that's all. On the basis of your post using the checking procedure to demonstrate that TM involves effort, it's crystal clear that you never got what is really meant by effortless or why no effort is involved in TM. Which means you almost certainly were not doing it effortlessly in the first place. Wow, tat's a lot of words! The simple answer is this: Checking shows how the mechanics of effort are used. When I learned TM (Deep Meditation) in 1962, by the first meditation teacher in Norway, we learned to concentrate about the Mantra. Some years after - the instruction became Don't concentrate, and the checking points came out. Ingegerd Interesting, since even Hermit in My House, written in 1959, talks about the ease of meditation,IIRC. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd marwincornyarmand@ wrote: When I learned TM (Deep Meditation) in 1962, by the first meditation teacher in Norway, we learned to concentrate about the Mantra. Some years after - the instruction became Don't concentrate, and the checking points came out. Ingegerd, your experience MUST be wrong, because it doesn't agree with what Judy and Lawson say. You *know* that they are always RIGHT, and that by definition anyone else who has a different experience or heard something different from Maharishi is WRONG. After all, their vision (never having actually met Maharishi and thus dealing with the zeitgeist of his teachings) is clear and unclouded, and they learned TM *correctly*, whereas those who have actually met Maharishi and worked with him intimately for years did not. Presumably his holy presence caused confusion. And you *know* that TM *never* changed over the years as a result of trail and error...it was presented to Maharishi full-blown in all its perfection on a lotus leaf, garlanded with pushpams, carried by a host of dakinis in thong bikinis. (And believe me...a bikini top is hard to fit when you have six arms.) In short, watch yo mouth. You don't want to disagree with the definers of TRUTH on Fairfield Life, do you? :-) You are so right. I apologize for not being humble enough for the TBs. I will from now on be very careful about what I say. The experiences was of various characters and will not fit the ears of the TBs. Ingegerd Ingegerd, of course, does not read either Lawson's or my posts, so Barry is able to mislead her with his deliberate misrepresentations of what we've said. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd marwincornyarmand@ wrote: When I learned TM (Deep Meditation) in 1962, by the first meditation teacher in Norway, we learned to concentrate about the Mantra. Some years after - the instruction became Don't concentrate, and the checking points came out. Ingegerd, your experience MUST be wrong, because it doesn't agree with what Judy and Lawson say. You *know* that they are always RIGHT, and that by definition anyone else who has a different experience or heard something different from Maharishi is WRONG. After all, their vision (never having actually met Maharishi and thus dealing with the zeitgeist of his teachings) is clear and unclouded, and they learned TM *correctly*, whereas those who have actually met Maharishi and worked with him intimately for years did not. Presumably his holy presence caused confusion. And you *know* that TM *never* changed over the years as a result of trail and error...it was presented to Maharishi full-blown in all its perfection on a lotus leaf, garlanded with pushpams, carried by a host of dakinis in thong bikinis. (And believe me...a bikini top is hard to fit when you have six arms.) In short, watch yo mouth. You don't want to disagree with the definers of TRUTH on Fairfield Life, do you? :-) You are so right. I apologize for not being humble enough for the TBs. I will from now on be very careful about what I say. The experiences was of various characters and will not fit the ears of the TBs. Ingegerd Were you instructed by MMY or by one of his students? This is the first time Ihave heard anyone claim that MMY's fundamental technique (not just the mantra) has changed over the years so obviously, i'm more than a tad skeptical, especially given that accounts written in 1967 about TM as taught by MMYpersonally in 1959 indicate that he was using words like innocence even back then. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Illusion of individuality; labels; true bhakti; the story of Guru Dev and his cave
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Dean Goodman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: THE STRUGGLE OF INDIVIDUALITY TO PERPETUATE ITS ILLUSION snipt out of compassion for bandwidth Scorecard: - Number of lines: 593 - Number of words: 5,337 - Number of pages: 14 - Flesch Reading Ease score: 70 (out of 100) - Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level score: 4.9 (almost fifth grade) - Outrage quotient: 100 (out of 100) - Hot air quotient: 100 (out of 100) - Self-importance quotient: 100 (out of 100) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: PVTM = ananta-samaapatti??
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Cardmeister writes: What do youse think of the idea that plain vanilla TM is actually ananta-samaapatti* mentioned in YS II 47? *) becoming endless (boundless, infinite, eternal) Taimni's translation for ananta-samaapatti is 'meditation on the Endless. Tom T: From Alistair Shearer YS II 46. The physical postures should be steady and comfortable. YS II 47. They are mastered when all effort is relaxed and the mind is absorbed in the infinite. Tom Sounds like MMY's explanation of how TM and all other techniques work. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 10, 2006, at 3:56 AM, Ingegerd wrote: When I learned TM (Deep Meditation) in 1962, by the first meditation teacher in Norway, we learned to concentrate about the Mantra. Some years after - the instruction became Don't concentrate, and the checking points came out. Ingegerd That's interesting. I was just looking over the instruction materials which will be used for the Shamatha Project, a one year project where people will learn a TM-style of meditation and then practice for a year while they are examined via, EEG, fMRI, PET scans, etc. for changes. Instead of using a canned meditation method, they will actually learn three methods of Shamatha from those using effort/focus on a meditative object to those which are effortless. Now whether or not they will ask that just one be used for the research, I don't know, but they're teaching all three to give students the opportunity to fine tune what's best for them. I liked the idea of a continuum of practice rather than a fixed practice. The idea may be to progress from effor/ focus to true effortlessness as the student is able or if the student is able. So the intellect is used to fine-tune progress to the non-intellect? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Mar 10, 2006, at 3:56 AM, Ingegerd wrote: When I learned TM (Deep Meditation) in 1962, by the first meditation teacher in Norway, we learned to concentrate about the Mantra. Some years after - the instruction became Don't concentrate, and the checking points came out. Ingegerd That's interesting. I was just looking over the instruction materials which will be used for the Shamatha Project, a one year project where people will learn a TM-style of meditation and then practice for a year while they are examined via, EEG, fMRI, PET scans, etc. for changes. Instead of using a canned meditation method, they will actually learn three methods of Shamatha from those using effort/focus on a meditative object to those which are effortless. Now whether or not they will ask that just one be used for the research, I don't know, but they're teaching all three to give students the opportunity to fine tune what's best for them. I liked the idea of a continuum of practice rather than a fixed practice. The idea may be to progress from effor/ focus to true effortlessness as the student is able or if the student is able. Interesting. If I understand you right - they will start with some concentration, then less consentration and then effortless practice, over time. It is the same as I read in some books about Hindu Meditation and a concentrated form of the instructions into TM today. In 1962, we received the Mantra, without the instructions given today. We were told to concentrate on the Mantra for 30 minutes. The next day - the teacher checked the Mantra - and that was it. Ingegerd Think the mantra [the same way you think any other thought -- IIRC] was all I was taught in 1973. HOw has that changed today? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd marwincornyarmand@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Mar 10, 2006, at 3:56 AM, Ingegerd wrote: When I learned TM (Deep Meditation) in 1962, by the first meditation teacher in Norway, we learned to concentrate about the Mantra. Some years after - the instruction became Don't concentrate, and the checking points came out. Ingegerd That's interesting. I was just looking over the instruction materials which will be used for the Shamatha Project, a one year project where people will learn a TM-style of meditation and then practice for a year while they are examined via, EEG, fMRI, PET scans, etc. for changes. Instead of using a canned meditation method, they will actually learn three methods of Shamatha from those using effort/focus on a meditative object to those which are effortless. Now whether or not they will ask that just one be used for the research, I don't know, but they're teaching all three to give students the opportunity to fine tune what's best for them. I liked the idea of a continuum of practice rather than a fixed practice. The idea may be to progress from effor/ focus to true effortlessness as the student is able or if the student is able. Interesting. If I understand you right - they will start with some concentration, then less consentration and then effortless practice, over time. It is the same as I read in some books about Hindu Meditation and a concentrated form of the instructions into TM today. In 1962, we received the Mantra, without the instructions given today. We were told to concentrate on the Mantra for 30 minutes. The next day - the teacher checked the Mantra - and that was it. I think that Vaj was speculating, based on having found that the project offers three different methods of meditation to its subjects. But the idea of starting with concentration or focus and then moving to a more effortless focus *in the same meditation period* is hardly unique. Many of the concentration techniques I've learned were like that -- you start with a strong period of focus on a yantra or mantra or image or whatever, and then let go and have a period of no focus. Sometimes the technique involves bouncing back and forth between these two approaches in the same meditation. Caveat for the easily offended: The above statement implies neither good nor bad, better nor best; it's just what I was taught when learning those techniques. It isn't meant as a comment on your favorite style of meditation in any way. In MY experience, that's the worst-case example of effort during TM. You start out deliberately thinking the mantra, and then you forget to think it. Rinse, repeat. OTher times, its not quite so obvious that one is deliberately doing something. Other times, it seems obvious that there is no doing, just happening. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I genuinely want to know which techniques out there are effortless and do not require concentration. You must've missed the TM is not effortless thread here sometime ago. TM is *easy* but not truly effortless. BS. No effort is required to do TM. Some effort may happen on occasssion, and obsessing about how much or how little, if any, is detrimental, but no effort is required. BS. You're supposed to start by thinking something in particular (the mantra). I've practiced techniques in which no such artificiality is required. Precisely my point. Sheesh you almost get the mpression these guys only have ever believed what they are told. Says Vaj, demonstrating without question that he never got the knack of TM. Again: It has nothing to do with what we were told. That's Vaj's and Barry's standard copout. It has to do with personal experience. Or lack thereof. Just for the purpose of intellectual argument (which it seems is what you're looking for), let's examine Vaj's statement above in the context of relative sets of experience. Vaj and I are talking about *contrasting* the effort- lessness of techniques we have personally practiced with the supposed effortlessness of TM. We have had experience of *both* types of meditation. Based on that *comparative* experience, both of us can comfort- ably say that other techniques are really effortless, whereas TM has a subtle degree of effort involved with it. And what we're suggesting is that you and Vaj appear never to have experienced TM as effortless, whereas both of us have. (A notion that Maharishi himself is on record as agreeing with, a fact which both of you choose to ignore.) We haven't ignored it, of course. We've asked for exactly what he said *in context*, but nobody has been able to come up with that yet. You and Judy have had experience with only *one* of them. Based on that, you seem to be claiming that TM *is* completely effortless. But neither of you has ever experienced a style of meditation that is *really* effortless, and that doesn't even involved thinking a particular thought (the mantra) or coming back to anything (again, the mantra). You're suggesting that thinking the particular thought of the mantra, or coming back to that thought, involves *effort*. We're saying that isn't our experience. Apparently, for you and Vaj, both *do* involve effort. And that's why we say you and Vaj have not experienced TM's effortlessness. And you're chiding US on our lack of experience? Not chiding you, simply pointing out what seems to be the case where TM is concerned. I would suggest that Vaj is RIGHT ON with his sugges- tion that your entire stance is based on wHAT YOU WERE TOLD about TM's supposed effortlessness. You were told, over and over and over and over, that it is effortless, and now you can't even *conceive* of it being any other way. You *interpret* your personal experience as 'effortlessness,' because you were TOLD that it was effortlessness. Effortlessness isn't a conception, it's an *experience*. It's impossible to conceive of effortlessness; it can only be experienced. It works exactly in reverse from what you speculate: Once you have *experienced* TM's effortlessness, you recognize the description as accurate. Up to that point, the description is meaningless, no matter how many times somebody says it's effortless. You have no experience of what effortlessness might really BE in the world of meditation. But you're willing to claim that other people, who HAVE experienced a style of meditation that really IS effortless, are mistaken and that you are correct. You're incorrect when you say TM is not effortless, yes, indeed. You *may* be correct when you say these other techniques are effortless, but given that you don't seem to have experienced TM as effortless, and that certain questions arise about your description of these other techniques' effortlessness that neither of you appears to be able to respond to, we're skeptical of your claim. Doncha just love the humility that TM instills in its adherents? :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So what if your guru DOES ask you to wear a crown in public? Is it a strain to agonize about your decision to follow this? No guru. No question. Careful. t3rinity will say there is something lacking in your life. :-) You clearly get me terribly wrong, Barry. But maybe you want to get me wrong. If you have no love in your life, something is certainly missing. If you have no Guru, there are many other ways of relationship you can have. I am just poking fun at you, hoping to help you LIGHTEN UP a bit. It doesn't seem to be working. You're just so fuckin' HEAVY and JUDGEMENTAL about all this stuff, dude. Just look at what you wrote above. Based on the fact that I don't follow a bhakti path and am willing to look at both the up-sides and down-sides of bhakti (both of which definitely exist), you declare that there is no love in my life. As I read what Michael is saying, he's using you in the impersonal sense, i.e., If one has no love in one's life... Also, the if makes it conditional rather than a declaration, even if he *did* mean you in a personal sense. So once again, we see your paranoia. You don't know me AT ALL. You don't know anything about the 400 gopis who visit me nightly to dance with my enchanted flute. I love them all dearly. Not to mention the sheep with whom I have a *very* loving relationship. :-) Seriously, dude...you *really* should consider lightening up. Just because someone follows a different path than you do doesn't mean that they're lower than you or that something is missing from their life. If you realized that, I suspect you'd be a lot happier with your *own* path. All the above is in aid of Barry avoiding the fact that once again he missed Michael's point. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd marwincornyarmand@ wrote: When I learned TM (Deep Meditation) in 1962, by the first meditation teacher in Norway, we learned to concentrate about the Mantra. Some years after - the instruction became Don't concentrate, and the checking points came out. Ingegerd, your experience MUST be wrong, because it doesn't agree with what Judy and Lawson say. Well, now, let's see, I can't recall saying, or seeing Lawson say, anything about having learned TM in 1962 or the words used in instruction then. I don't know about 1962, but MMY was apparently, according to the revised 1979 edition of _Maharishi at 433_ (aka _Hermit in My House_), using the phrase think it innocently as a child when discussing the TM mantra. The context was the meaning of the mantra, so perhaps it isn't germane to the initial instruction for using the mantra, but the tone of the book (as seen through 1979 glasses looking at something written in 1967 about events in 1959, of course) seemed to imply that meditation was simple, easy, effortless, etc. Certainly, it was *called* simple in the 1979 edition. Anyone have the 1967 edition, or have any promotional materials from the earliest days of TM instruction in the '59-'62 period? That doesn't mean that it wasn't called concentration by Ingegard's teacher in 1962, but dyhan is often translated as concentration, and MMY insists that TM is the simplest and most important form of dyhan in SOBAL and by then he was definitely presenting TM as effortless, etc. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd marwincornyarmand@ wrote: [...] When I learned TM (Deep Meditation) in 1962, by the first meditation teacher in Norway, we learned to concentrate about the Mantra. Some years after - the instruction became Don't concentrate, and the checking points came out. Ingegerd Interesting, since even Hermit in My House, written in 1959, talks about the ease of meditation,IIRC. Ihave the 1979 edition, not the original 1967 edition. The events described took place in1959, but the book wasn't written until 8 years later. MMY's meditation is described as simple, and he is quoted as saying that one should think the mantra as innocently as a child in the context of meaning. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 9, 2006, at 8:42 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Mar 9, 2006, at 6:38 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: snip Wow, tat's a lot of words! Which you obviously don't want to deal with. Especially your oh-so-convenient forgettery with regard to your post on the checking procedure. The simple answer is this: Checking shows how the mechanics of effort are used. In fact, the simple answer is that checking shows how the mechanics of effort are *not* used. Again: If you didn't get this, you never got what TM is. The bottom line in this case is simple: if it uses patched placement, that is if it uses some method where the mind has to be brought back to *something* (in this case the mantra) in order to work, Right. Not the case with TM except in the early stages of practice. Think: What is the mind brought back *from* in TM? Exactly--that which needed patched. If it didn't need patched (if you didn't need to meditate), you'd experience the transcendent through all states! But if it is being brought back from the transcendent, it *is* being patched. Oh well, subtle effort. So much talk. Says Vaj, avoiding responding to my question, just as I predicted: (Vaj won't respond to this, just as Barry didn't respond to a similar question from Lawson.) To address his nonresponse on its own terms: There is no bringing back in TM, either from transcendence or from the recognition (thought) that one is not thinking the mantra. If Vaj was meditating by bringing back the mind from either to the mantra, he most certainly wasn't doing TM. snip Very wise sharing on that by Rick (I also received a number of posts off list on that one where numerous people shared similar experiences). Oh, yes, we know, Vaj, you remind us often about how you have access to all *kinds* of privileged data. Well you heard the same thing if you were *listening*. He posted it here. He posted what you had received offlist? snip Really if you have questions You seem to be imagining things. I didn't ask a question. Actually you asked what Mahesh said specifically at Estes Park several times--so did your side kick. If by sidekick you mean Lawson, and if by question you mean what MMY had said specifically at Estes Park, we asked *you* because you were the person who had brought it up. The answer to our question therefore was, I don't know exactly what he said at Estes Park. But somehow it seems to be impossible for you to say I don't know. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: snip Just look at what you wrote above. Based on the fact that I don't follow a bhakti path and am willing to look at both the up-sides and down-sides of bhakti (both of which definitely exist), you declare that there is no love in my life. Wrong. I said 'If' and the you can be substituted for a 'one', it wasn't a personal you. And I clearly explained several times, that I was not speaking about Bhakti as a path, but as a sentiment. But maybe you just didn't have your cup of coffee yet. For the record, I responded to Barry on this same point before I'd read this from Michael. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: But the idea of starting with concentration or focus and then moving to a more effortless focus *in the same meditation period* is hardly unique. Many of the concentration techniques I've learned were like that -- you start with a strong period of focus on a yantra or mantra or image or whatever, and then let go and have a period of no focus. Sometimes the technique involves bouncing back and forth between these two approaches in the same meditation. Caveat for the easily offended: The above statement implies neither good nor bad, better nor best; it's just what I was taught when learning those techniques. It isn't meant as a comment on your favorite style of meditation in any way. In MY experience, that's the worst-case example of effort during TM. You start out deliberately thinking the mantra, and then you forget to think it. Rinse, repeat. OTher times, its not quite so obvious that one is deliberately doing something. Other times, it seems obvious that there is no doing, just happening. U...in case you didn't notice, I wasn't describing TM. I was describing other forms of meditation. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: So what if your guru DOES ask you to wear a crown in public? Is it a strain to agonize about your decision to follow this? No guru. No question. Careful. t3rinity will say there is something lacking in your life. :-) You clearly get me terribly wrong, Barry. But maybe you want to get me wrong. If you have no love in your life, something is certainly missing. If you have no Guru, there are many other ways of relationship you can have. I am just poking fun at you, hoping to help you LIGHTEN UP a bit. It doesn't seem to be working. You're just so fuckin' HEAVY and JUDGEMENTAL about all this stuff, dude. Again you judge me wrong, I'm not heavy on this, I just explain. In recent days, you have blasted both Ingegerd and myself for 'attacking' bhakti, when we didn't. That's not heavy? Could you please tell me what the word bhakti means? - it would be nice to know what I am attacking? He means Irmeli, not you. (Somebody please quote this to Ingegerd so she sees it.) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: So what if your guru DOES ask you to wear a crown in public? Is it a strain to agonize about your decision to follow this? No guru. No question. Careful. t3rinity will say there is something lacking in your life. :-) You clearly get me terribly wrong, Barry. But maybe you want to get me wrong. If you have no love in your life, something is certainly missing. If you have no Guru, there are many other ways of relationship you can have. I am just poking fun at you, hoping to help you LIGHTEN UP a bit. It doesn't seem to be working. You're just so fuckin' HEAVY and JUDGEMENTAL about all this stuff, dude. Just look at what you wrote above. Based on the fact that I don't follow a bhakti path and am willing to look at both the up-sides and down-sides of bhakti (both of which definitely exist), you declare that there is no love in my life. As I read what Michael is saying, he's using you in the impersonal sense, i.e., If one has no love in one's life... Also, the if makes it conditional rather than a declaration, even if he *did* mean you in a personal sense. So once again, we see your paranoia. You don't know me AT ALL. You don't know anything about the 400 gopis who visit me nightly to dance with my enchanted flute. I love them all dearly. Not to mention the sheep with whom I have a *very* loving relationship. :-) Seriously, dude...you *really* should consider lightening up. Just because someone follows a different path than you do doesn't mean that they're lower than you or that something is missing from their life. If you realized that, I suspect you'd be a lot happier with your *own* path. All the above is in aid of Barry avoiding the fact that once again he missed Michael's point. And all of Judy's comments above are just her way of getting off by trying to put Barry down. Again. I'm beginning to think there really *is* some truth in people's comments here that she's got a thing for me. Can't ya just imagine the scene on her end of the conversation: AHA! Barry said something that I can portray as stupid or intellectually dishonest again. Sounds of furious typing, somewhat obscured by a strange, unidentified buzzing sound in the background that may or may not be a vibrator Take THAT! Barry. Ooh. Aah. And THAT! Finally Judy leans back in her chair, reads over her devastating response one last time, and pushes the SEND button, shouting... SEND! SEND! SEND ME, BABY!!! Orgasmic sounds, similar to Sally in the Deli That was great. I wish I hadn't given up smoking, because I *really* feel like a cigarette... :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Illusion of individuality; labels; true bhakti; the story of Guru Dev and hi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Dean Goodman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: THE STRUGGLE OF INDIVIDUALITY TO PERPETUATE ITS ILLUSION BIG SNIP 1. THE PERSONAL-CONTACT RULE FOR TRUE BHAKTI Someone commented that I couldn't claim devotion to Maharishi if I haven't seen him (his relative body) in person for a long time. (So I'm curious, where does the boundary line come that distinguishes real devotion? Does seeing Maharishi far off across a big lecture hall count? Does it count if he's in the next room, speaking over a sound system? What about seeing him live on TV - but from the next room, the next town, the next continent? What about streaming live internet video? Or videotapes/CDs - how recent do they have to be? Do audio- tapes count - you're not literally seeing him? What about telephone calls, letters, etc.? How close in time/space do I have to get to him to qualify as a true devotee? How often do I have to get that close? Does it count if he's thinking of me, or if I'm thinking of him? How often?) Obviously, from my laughing sarcasm, in my experience this person's comment reflects a very limited, relative, basic-level view of devotion. It's not Maharishi's relative body that I relate to much anymore; it is his expanded reality, his cosmic presence, his omnipresence, the awareness that he is. He lives in me, as my Self. I live in him. It's his thinking, in his role as a reflector/conduit of That, that I attune myself to and become ever more deeply. Our relationship is on that level. I think the last paragraph above is a very nice description of true bhakti. I agree completely that true devotion to a guru or to anyone for that matter is not based on physical proximity or other superficial measures of closeness. I certainly didn't mean to imply in my previous post that status in the TMO necessarily implies anything about one's level of devotion to MMY. However, any relationship that is not based on direct physical interaction and communication is obviously open to misinterpretation, and even a glance into the guru scene reveals a great deal of delusion among their devotees. Sincere bhaktis generally keep themselves open to feedback to make sure they're not going off the deep end. R Carlson is the most well-known case of this. He made all the same pts as MDG to support his enlightened unity with MMY, but MMY called his bluff and supposedly called him an idiot in his videotape to the court case. I'm not sure even this dissuaded Carlson from his viewpt since once one adopts that cosmic type of bhakti there is no objective info that can crack it (though Carlson did keep his promise to FFld if MMY publicly disowned him). I don't mean to equate MDG with Carlson, but just the dangers of that purely internal definition of bhakti and the need for constant feedback to test it. On all the tapes I saw MMY was very clear what he thought of people who came to the mike with stories of getting instructions from him in their dreams or in their meditation. In one case he said something to the effect that he does know how to use the phone. The Guru Dev story MDG tells is a good one to illustrate the deep nature of bhakti, but don't forget the ending - GD's masters reveals to both GD and the ashram the true status of their relationship. No doubt some devotees were exiled for real from that ashram - who knows how many of them spent their lives thinking it was just for show? In short, I don't think the deep, non-physical nature of true bhakti necessarily means you completely ignore or contradict the expressed level either. Does MDG ignore valentine's day rituals with his girlfriend because their love is so above all those superficial expressions? If so, his tantra practices that night were probably non-physical also. PS -- I always admired john black who got exiled from int'l and banned from courses for a little mistake. He left as told but continued to successfully teach tm for decades at a local center. He showed great devotion to MMY's teachings by continuing to teach even though he kept getting turned down from courses. He never made a big deal about being a cosmic bhakti, he just lived it very simply. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd marwincornyarmand@ wrote: [...] When I learned TM (Deep Meditation) in 1962, by the first meditation teacher in Norway, we learned to concentrate about the Mantra. Some years after - the instruction became Don't concentrate, and the checking points came out. Ingegerd Interesting, since even Hermit in My House, written in 1959, talks about the ease of meditation,IIRC. Ihave the 1979 edition, not the original 1967 edition. The events described took place in1959, but the book wasn't written until 8 years later. MMY's meditation is described as simple, and he is quoted as saying that one should think the mantra as innocently as a child in the context of meaning. More suggestions that MMY's lectures certainly *implied* that his meditation technique was easy, again from the 1979 edition, but allegedly quoting a 1959 lecture: We do not make an effort to get rid of darkness. Only shine a bright light and the darkness goes by itself. --MMY, 1959, quoted in _Maharishi at 433_, p. 26 Wandering isn't the nature of of the mind. The nature of the mind is to settle down in bliss. It is natural for the mind to enjoy more. Only it needs direction to find the right place. Only a matter of turning within... to the Kingdom of Heaven within, as Lord Christ has said. --ibid, p 37. ...and the way is easy, quick, the jet age. No need to take a long time. Only the right technique is needed. --ibid, p 38. Appendix C is the transcript of an entire lecture by MMY at USC in 1959. Lots of references to modern TM teaching, such as turing the mind inward to allow the mind to find fulfillment heading towards bliss, rather than attempting to force it in certain direction, etc. If the teacher in 1962 used a word like concentration as in forced to instruct in TM, obviously the translation was VERY bad at that time since that goes against everything that I can find documented about what MMY says about his technique in 1959. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: But the idea of starting with concentration or focus and then moving to a more effortless focus *in the same meditation period* is hardly unique. Many of the concentration techniques I've learned were like that -- you start with a strong period of focus on a yantra or mantra or image or whatever, and then let go and have a period of no focus. Sometimes the technique involves bouncing back and forth between these two approaches in the same meditation. Caveat for the easily offended: The above statement implies neither good nor bad, better nor best; it's just what I was taught when learning those techniques. It isn't meant as a comment on your favorite style of meditation in any way. In MY experience, that's the worst-case example of effort during TM. You start out deliberately thinking the mantra, and then you forget to think it. Rinse, repeat. OTher times, its not quite so obvious that one is deliberately doing something. Other times, it seems obvious that there is no doing, just happening. U...in case you didn't notice, I wasn't describing TM. I was describing other forms of meditation. And, apparently you missed this: I was pointing out that these other forms of meditation CAN BE inherent in TM practice. They just arise spontaneously. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: But the idea of starting with concentration or focus and then moving to a more effortless focus *in the same meditation period* is hardly unique. Many of the concentration techniques I've learned were like that -- you start with a strong period of focus on a yantra or mantra or image or whatever, and then let go and have a period of no focus. Sometimes the technique involves bouncing back and forth between these two approaches in the same meditation. Caveat for the easily offended: The above statement implies neither good nor bad, better nor best; it's just what I was taught when learning those techniques. It isn't meant as a comment on your favorite style of meditation in any way. In MY experience, that's the worst-case example of effort during TM. You start out deliberately thinking the mantra, and then you forget to think it. Rinse, repeat. OTher times, its not quite so obvious that one is deliberately doing something. Other times, it seems obvious that there is no doing, just happening. U...in case you didn't notice, I wasn't describing TM. I was describing other forms of meditation. As I read what Lawson said, he was making a comparison of your description of other forms of meditation with TM. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bhakti is that thing that t3rinity thinks that Michael Dean Goodman practices, and that he blasted Irmeli for attacking when she criticized MDG's logic. The fact that, AFAIK, neither MDG or Irmeli ever used the word 'bhakti' and almost certainly didn't have bhakti in their minds when they wrote what they wrote has nothing to do with it. There are a few things that intrigue me about t3rinity. Does he consciously distort our views just because they irritate him? Or does he have some sort of dyslexia and he does not properly understand written text? Or probably he is not competent in formal operational thinking and hence puts together concepts and ideas illogically, forgets what he attacked at and claimed in an earlier post and claims the opposite in the next post. His rules of throwing out ideas seem to be that something sounds good, and he has heard someone use the phrase, and it seems to make a good striking weapon at the very moment. He has no hesitation using ideas this way even if he one post earlier claimed opposite. And there seems to be an ego in him that gets very easily hurt. All this points to weak skills in formal operational thinking, where principles rule, not the egos needs and hurts. He has apparently also found the principles: attack is the best defence and blame others for your own weaknesses successful survival strategies. There he however has made a grave mistake. If he uses these strategies also in his personal relationships, he must have faced many disappointments on that front. He most probably blames others for the disappointments and cannot see how the problems come from his way of relating to others. In this kind of situation he can get a lot of consolation from cherishing sentiments of bhakti towards a distant guru, with whom he cannot be in personal relationship. And that is fine, if it helps him. I'm sure he gets furious about this. If he does not, and laughs to this nonsense, then I certainly have wrong here. I don't feel totally comfortable posting this, but here inside me resides also a challenger, who thinks, that an effective way of confronting certain repeating dysfunctional patterns, is by trying to bring the structures to the open, even if it might cause some turmoil. I really find t3rinity's way of communicating appalling. Irmeli Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
I'm outa this, having written a let's let it drop note to t3rinity, and having meant it. On the other hand, I just can't wait to see how you rip MDG a new one for his latest novel...uh...I mean post...if *it* gets your dander up. :-) :-) :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: Bhakti is that thing that t3rinity thinks that Michael Dean Goodman practices, and that he blasted Irmeli for attacking when she criticized MDG's logic. The fact that, AFAIK, neither MDG or Irmeli ever used the word 'bhakti' and almost certainly didn't have bhakti in their minds when they wrote what they wrote has nothing to do with it. There are a few things that intrigue me about t3rinity. Does he consciously distort our views just because they irritate him? Or does he have some sort of dyslexia and he does not properly understand written text? Or probably he is not competent in formal operational thinking and hence puts together concepts and ideas illogically, forgets what he attacked at and claimed in an earlier post and claims the opposite in the next post. His rules of throwing out ideas seem to be that something sounds good, and he has heard someone use the phrase, and it seems to make a good striking weapon at the very moment. He has no hesitation using ideas this way even if he one post earlier claimed opposite. And there seems to be an ego in him that gets very easily hurt. All this points to weak skills in formal operational thinking, where principles rule, not the egos needs and hurts. He has apparently also found the principles: attack is the best defence and blame others for your own weaknesses successful survival strategies. There he however has made a grave mistake. If he uses these strategies also in his personal relationships, he must have faced many disappointments on that front. He most probably blames others for the disappointments and cannot see how the problems come from his way of relating to others. In this kind of situation he can get a lot of consolation from cherishing sentiments of bhakti towards a distant guru, with whom he cannot be in personal relationship. And that is fine, if it helps him. I'm sure he gets furious about this. If he does not, and laughs to this nonsense, then I certainly have wrong here. I don't feel totally comfortable posting this, but here inside me resides also a challenger, who thinks, that an effective way of confronting certain repeating dysfunctional patterns, is by trying to bring the structures to the open, even if it might cause some turmoil. I really find t3rinity's way of communicating appalling. Irmeli Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Illusion of individuality; labels; true bhakti; the story of Guru Dev and hi
on 3/10/06 10:15 AM, markmeredith2002 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: PS -- I always admired john black who got exiled from int'l and banned from courses for a little mistake. He left as told but continued to successfully teach tm for decades at a local center. He showed great devotion to MMY's teachings by continuing to teach even though he kept getting turned down from courses. He never made a big deal about being a cosmic bhakti, he just lived it very simply. And now he's a raja and Maharishi has changed his name from Black to Bright, so let that be a lesson for all those of lesser faith! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
On Mar 10, 2006, at 10:58 AM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 9, 2006, at 8:42 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Mar 9, 2006, at 6:38 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: snip Wow, tat's a lot of words! Which you obviously don't want to deal with. Especially your oh-so-convenient forgettery with regard to your post on the checking procedure. The simple answer is this: Checking shows how the mechanics of effort are used. In fact, the simple answer is that checking shows how the mechanics of effort are *not* used. Again: If you didn't get this, you never got what TM is. The bottom line in this case is simple: if it uses patched placement, that is if it uses some method where the mind has to be brought back to *something* (in this case the mantra) in order to work, Right. Not the case with TM except in the early stages of practice. Think: What is the mind brought back *from* in TM? Exactly--that which needed patched. If it didn't need patched (if you didn't need to meditate), you'd experience the transcendent through all states! But if it is being brought back from the transcendent, it *is* being patched. Oh well, subtle effort. So much talk. Says Vaj, avoiding responding to my question, just as I predicted: (Vaj won't respond to this, just as Barry didn't respond to a similar question from Lawson.) To address his nonresponse on its own terms: There is no bringing back in TM, either from transcendence or from the recognition (thought) that one is not thinking the mantra. If Vaj was meditating by bringing back the mind from either to the mantra, he most certainly wasn't doing TM. Ignoratio elenchi. Your question has already been answered numerous times, you just can't accept what you're hearing is all. Nothing new here. sigh snip Very wise sharing on that by Rick (I also received a number of posts off list on that one where numerous people shared similar experiences). Oh, yes, we know, Vaj, you remind us often about how you have access to all *kinds* of privileged data. Well you heard the same thing if you were *listening*. He posted it here. He posted what you had received offlist? As you've been told several times, it was posted here--actually Rick has posted it here, on this list, three times. snip Really if you have questions You seem to be imagining things. I didn't ask a question. Actually you asked what Mahesh said specifically at Estes Park several times--so did your side kick. If by sidekick you mean Lawson, and if by question you mean what MMY had said specifically at Estes Park, we asked *you* because you were the person who had brought it up. The answer to our question therefore was, I don't know exactly what he said at Estes Park. But somehow it seems to be impossible for you to say I don't know. I have every reason to believe what Rick is saying not only because he was there and I trust him, but also because I understand experientially what's going on. It's beyond me as to why you are so entrenched in denying the obvious--but it's a common thing you do, this TM apologist trip. Whatever. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Maharishi: Where we want to take our people.
Title: Maharishi: Where we want to take our people. All from December 1, 2005: Maharishi: How do you smash poverty? You take poverty to the extreme level, where there is absolutely nothing. And you have smashed poverty. And when there is absolutely nothing, you find absolutely everything. And that is real richness. Real richness is real richness. Underline this thing a thousand times. Real richness is not in the countable wealth -- million, billion, trillion, and whatever -- it's not in terms of wealth. In terms of the source of all wealth. Source of infinite wealth. That you desire and the thing is there. You wish -- the thing is there. That is real wealthy. And to this class we want to raise the poor. ...It's not concerned with countable coins and wealth, but it is in terms of that affluence which is a field of all possibilities. All wealth is an aspect of it. But wealth is not -- alone -- total life. There is power. There is power. And there is knowledge. And there is bliss. ...Our poverty removal is -- removal of anything that may not be totality. Removal of anything that is not totality. And that is one's own self-sufficiency. One's own consciousness. One's own consciousness. And that is predominantly a matter of attention. Attention. ...We have the program of poverty removal, and this is in terms of the worldly understanding of it. But when we know from where we are functioning for these, and where we want to take our people, we want to take our people -- not to a wealth which can be minimized, or which can be stolen away, or which can be a cause of pains and tears. But a level where bliss is moving, where the waves are the waves of bliss. . Dreaming state of consciousness is -- something is seen in terms of something else. There is a tree, and you see it like a lion jumping on you. This is dream. sp; Something is seen as something else. God Consciousness is also: something seen in terms of something else. You see a mango tree, and you see Krishna is there, and you see this Vishnu is there. Something seen in terms of something else. That is God Consciousness. God Consciousness. Something seen as something else. You see something, but you see God in it. You see something -- God in it. . Poverty means a man is poor. That means he has less money. Now when we want him to have more money, our program is to completely deprive him of anything that even he has now. And that we say -- that is our program to eliminate poverty. He has some money -- he is poor. Now we want him to have more money. The program is: To deprive him for whatever he has -- take him to a vacuum state. Take him to the hollowness. To nothingness. To abstraction. To unmanifest. And show -- prove to him that he has everything. He got everything. In one sense we take him to nothingness. And in the same sense, miraculously, we put him to deprivation of nothingness. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm outa this, having written a let's let it drop note to t3rinity, and having meant it. On the other hand, I just can't wait to see how you rip MDG a new one for his latest novel...uh...I mean post...if *it* gets your dander up. :-) :-) :-) I just thought it might be too lengthy for me to bother to read it. Let's see now. At least earlier he has not had the same appalling problems of in communication as t3rinty has. irmeli Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi: Where we want to take our people.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That you desire and the thing is there. You wish -- the thing is there. Remember the discussions recently about why Maharishi so seldom follows through on his grand schemes? I think the answer to that question is right here. Because he really believes what he say above, there is never a *need* to follow through on the ideas. They were a reality to him the moment he thought of them. Just thinking of the idea meant that they were already well on the way to being manifest. I'd be willing to bet that he has never *noticed* the failed and abandoned projects over the years. He lost interest in them the moment he thought of the idea and set people to raising money for it. Not that this is a bad thing [token Seinfeldism], if you really have the ability to manifest your desires by just thinking them. But if you don't... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 10, 2006, at 10:58 AM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Mar 9, 2006, at 8:42 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Mar 9, 2006, at 6:38 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: snip Wow, tat's a lot of words! Which you obviously don't want to deal with. Especially your oh-so-convenient forgettery with regard to your post on the checking procedure. The simple answer is this: Checking shows how the mechanics of effort are used. In fact, the simple answer is that checking shows how the mechanics of effort are *not* used. Again: If you didn't get this, you never got what TM is. The bottom line in this case is simple: if it uses patched placement, that is if it uses some method where the mind has to be brought back to *something* (in this case the mantra) in order to work, Right. Not the case with TM except in the early stages of practice. Think: What is the mind brought back *from* in TM? Exactly--that which needed patched. If it didn't need patched (if you didn't need to meditate), you'd experience the transcendent through all states! But if it is being brought back from the transcendent, it *is* being patched. Oh well, subtle effort. So much talk. Says Vaj, avoiding responding to my question, just as I predicted: (Vaj won't respond to this, just as Barry didn't respond to a similar question from Lawson.) To address his nonresponse on its own terms: There is no bringing back in TM, either from transcendence or from the recognition (thought) that one is not thinking the mantra. If Vaj was meditating by bringing back the mind from either to the mantra, he most certainly wasn't doing TM. Ignoratio elenchi. Wrongaroonie (unless you're referring to your own nonresponse). Your question has already been answered numerous times, you just can't accept what you're hearing is all. My question was: What is the mind brought back from? That was a *rhetorical* question, you see. The answer is: It is not brought back from anything. But perhaps you miswrote. Would you care to rephrase your assertion so that it actually *applies* to TM? Or you're certainly welcome to try to *defend* the phrase brought back in the TM context if you really believe it does apply. If you aren't willing or able to do either, I believe I have grounds for suspecting you're thoroughly confused about what is involved in TM practice. Nothing new here. sigh Indeed. Very wise sharing on that by Rick (I also received a number of posts off list on that one where numerous people shared similar experiences). Oh, yes, we know, Vaj, you remind us often about how you have access to all *kinds* of privileged data. Well you heard the same thing if you were *listening*. He posted it here. He posted what you had received offlist? As you've been told several times, it was posted here--actually Rick has posted it here, on this list, three times. Yes, you've said that already. Perhaps you didn't understand my question: Rick has posted here, three times, what you had received offlist? The response should be a simple Yes or No. Really if you have questions You seem to be imagining things. I didn't ask a question. Actually you asked what Mahesh said specifically at Estes Park several times--so did your side kick. If by sidekick you mean Lawson, and if by question you mean what MMY had said specifically at Estes Park, we asked *you* because you were the person who had brought it up. The answer to our question therefore was, I don't know exactly what he said at Estes Park. But somehow it seems to be impossible for you to say I don't know. I have every reason to believe what Rick is saying not only because he was there and I trust him, but also because I understand experientially what's going on. Fine. The answer to my question, the one you're for some reason unable to voice, is still I don't know exactly what MMY said at Estes Park. It's beyond me as to why you are so entrenched in denying the obvious It's beyond me as to why you are so entrenched in denying that you beat your wife. What's obvious is that it *isn't* obvious, but rather a source of considerable confusion even among those who have been trained as TM teachers. --but it's a common thing you do, this TM apologist trip. Whatever. If there weren't such confusion, you'd be able to respond straightforwardly to the points I'm making, pro or con. Not only can you not do so, you repeatedly attempt to shift ground or otherwise
[FairfieldLife] enlightenment center
Well it's been about a year since the tm teacher recertification course, which wasn't about tm teaching at all but about opening maharishi enlightenment centers in malls around the country. It looks like bob wynne, one the key sources of the plan, is opening up the 1st one this weekend in iowa city. According to ffld weekly reader ad, there's open house this sunday from 12-3 pm - in the old capitol mall. If anyone's up there this sunday could they post a report? (Surprised they advertised in the weekly reader, as MUM prohibits advertising there for campus events and forbids its distribution on campus.) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Illusion of individuality; labels; true bhakti; the story of Guru Dev and his cave
On Mar 10, 2006, at 9:27 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: Scorecard: - Number of lines: 593 - Number of words: 5,337 - Number of pages: 14 - Flesch Reading Ease score: 70 (out of 100) - Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level score: 4.9 (almost fifth grade) - Outrage quotient: 100 (out of 100) - Hot air quotient: 100 (out of 100) - Self-importance quotient: 100 (out of 100) Number of condescending, egocentric remarks that clearly show Michael as a superior being who deigns to mingle every now and then with the rest of humanity: too many to count.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Illusion of individuality; labels; true bhakti; the story of Guru Dev and his cave
Michael, just out of curiosity, will there be a test on this later on or can we just skim it? Sal On Mar 10, 2006, at 8:35 AM, Michael Dean Goodman wrote: THE STRUGGLE OF INDIVIDUALITY TO PERPETUATE ITS ILLUSION I feel compassionately sad whenever I meet those who still cling to the idea that their individuality (individual intellect) can guide them to the goal of realization, of remembering, of waking up again to Reality. They're sure that they don't need a guide on the path, don't need to surrender control, don't need to ask for help, and don't need to embrace their intellect's incompetence and impotence to handle the job. They are sure that their relative, finite intellect, bound in the world of space and time, can grok and master infinity, the field without boundaries, far beyond the ken of the relative intellect. That is delusion, that is arrogance of the deepest kind, that is the very essence of ignorance. Their individual ego/intellect has convinced them to trust it (not only to trust it, but to actually believe that they ARE it), and to never entertain the idea that the ego/intellect's assertion of its importance and ability to guide them back home IS ITSELF THE VERY CRUX OF THE PROBLEM, the very core of the ignorance.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi: Where we want to take our people.
Yadda, yadda, yadda. Sal On Mar 10, 2006, at 12:20 PM, TurquoiseB wrote: Not that this is a bad thing [token Seinfeldism], if you really have the ability to manifest your desires by just thinking them. But if you don't...
Re: [FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
How shocking. I mean Michael's posts are so concise, the point of each so blazingly clear within the first line or two, stated in such a manner as to be unmistakable, that it is almost impossible for me to believe anyone could miss one. I agree with you, Judy, (shaking heard) I honestly don't know how Barry or anyone else could miss the point of any of Michael's posts. Must be all that French wine. Sal On Mar 10, 2006, at 9:46 AM, authfriend wrote: All the above is in aid of Barry avoiding the fact that once again he missed Michael's point.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Illusion of individuality; labels; true bhakti; the story of Guru Dev and his cave
On Mar 10, 2006, at 8:35 AM, Michael Dean Goodman wrote: He reminded the disciple that young Guru Dev was living in one of those caves, and because of his familiarity with the area, he should be consulted about the cave selection. Too bad he's not still alive--he could help find Osama. People on this list sometimes accuse me of ignoring all the talk about Maharishi's relative behaviors, flaws, faults, inconsistencies, mistakes, harmful actions... It's amazing how people who don't know me can project so much onto me. Michael, you're not really as egocentric and full of yourself as this entire post indicates, are you? Have you counted up how many times 'I' and 'me' appears?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Illusion of individuality; labels; true bhakti; the story of Guru Dev and his cave
On Mar 10, 2006, at 8:35 AM, Michael Dean Goodman wrote: The thing is, I've come to realize that none of these discussions about Maharishi's individual personality and behaviors, taken on the relative level, are important to me. Yes, it's obvious by the length and recently, frequency of your posts, that none of this matters to you at all. Good. CONCLUSION ABOUT LABELING So when people try to paint me with their broad brush of true be- liever and insider and intellectually weak devotee and ignorer of the facts - it just makes me laugh and laugh. The things we try to project onto others is often a mirror of what we don't want to admit to in ourself, or fear in ourself, or censor in ourself. Lovingly I say to you, the next time you call someone a true believer, see if you aren't just as much a true non-believer - just as stuck, blinded by your own emotional traumas, etc. The next time you call someone an insider, see if you aren't resent- ing being an outsider - unloved, unbelonging, abandoned. The next time you call someone an unthinking, deluded bhakti, see if you aren't an over-thinking believer in individuality, afraid to let down your guard, to open up your heart. These labels only re- veal your own doubts and cynicisms. Is mood-maker OK? How about professional windbag? In my next post I'll address self-doubt and cynicism, and the role of profound trust and surrender, not as the negation of intellectual inquiry, but as the true foundations for alert and meaningful ques- tioning. That's the only kind of questioning we have here, Michael, :)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Illusion of individuality; labels; true bhakti; the story of Guru Dev and hi
I liked this post a lot. It is an honest account of Goodman's personal path and of his own insights and discriminations. I find Goodman's relationship to MMY have similar qualities than the TM-teacher I meet every now and then at lunch. That teacher has done the re-certification course. All the apparent absurdities in the movement don't bother him. He is somehow happily beyond them. There is something very beautiful and innocent in his relationship to MMY. The absurdities of the movement seem to have had a softening and moulding effect on his earlier quite rigid beliefs and attachments. I respect his devotion very much and I consider him to be doing fine. To be a `true believer' in this way is a fine and beautiful thing. To be a TB in a way as to using one's only right belief as a justification to morally low actions, and abuse and control of others is an distorted form, but quite common. This form of the TB phenomenon has mostly been discussed here and this discussion is very important. My main criticism is of Goodman's post is that he tries to make wrong this kind of discussion. Or at least he claims reasoning in those lines to be at the same level as the fundamentalist's reasoning, only from the opposite direction. I disagree. Sometimes fundamentalism can become wrapped in rigid rationality or rationalisations and use of science as religion. In those cases his criticism is appropriate, otherwise not. I also disagree with the idea that no one is objective until they are re-established in the Self. I claim that we cannot even then be fully objective, to be representing the absolute truth. The absolute is beyond the manifest phenomenal world. When the I becomes established in the transcendental, it becomes very stable and dis-identified with ideas of oneself, gross or subtle emotions etc. This I has no form, not even truth as we understand it. This kind of I does not so easily identify with subjective states and therefore it is capable of looking at also internal phenomenon from a stable and calm position. It is very difficult to hurt this kind of I. Still it also always looks at things from a perspective, maybe from several perspectives, but never from all the possible and valid perspectives. I agree fully of the importance of surrendering the gross level calculating intellect as an ultimate guiding light. We cannot evolve to higher ways of being, or stages of development by relying on our intellect. Our intellect can create only variations of structures familiar to us. If we want to evolve we have to surrender and let ourselves to be guided. But simultaneously our discriminative capacity and sound judgement are great assets in avoiding pitfalls while surrendering. Otherwise surrendering may insidiously change to regression. And we start using intellect to find justifications to our morally low actions. However the reality is usually more complicated than this division because often surrender and regression are both present and we are not capable of discriminating them from each other. I also personally feel to be strongly guided. Not by any single being in physical form, present or past, rather by all of them. I have also surrendered to and am also guided by the transcendental that is beyond my understanding and intellect. Irmeli --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Dean Goodman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: THE STRUGGLE OF INDIVIDUALITY TO PERPETUATE ITS ILLUSION I feel compassionately sad whenever I meet those who still cling to the idea that their individuality (individual intellect) can guide them to the goal of realization, of remembering, of waking up again to Reality. They're sure that they don't need a guide on the path, don't need to surrender control, don't need to ask for help, and don't need to embrace their intellect's incompetence and impotence to handle the job. They are sure that their relative, finite intellect, bound in the world of space and time, can grok and master infinity, the field without boundaries, far beyond the ken of the relative intellect. That is delusion, that is arrogance of the deepest kind, that is the very essence of ignorance. Their individual ego/intellect has convinced them to trust it (not only to trust it, but to actually believe that they ARE it), and to never entertain the idea that the ego/intellect's assertion of its importance and ability to guide them back home IS ITSELF THE VERY CRUX OF THE PROBLEM, the very core of the ignorance. HIRING THE THIEF TO CATCH THE THIEF It is like hiring the master cat burglar (albeit in his clever dis- guise as the 'great detective') to solve the string of (his) burglar- ies. The great detective (master burglar) will will NEVER EVER turn himself in, never participate in his own exposure, but instead will always have some encouraging progress report, and some inspiring vi- sion of possibilities, to string us along as long as possible, as he secretly continues his
Re: [FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
On Mar 10, 2006, at 11:02 AM, Irmeli Mattsson wrote: I just thought it might be too lengthy for me to bother to read it. Let's see now. At least earlier he has not had the same appalling problems of in communication as t3rinty has. The whole thing is basically MDG telling everyone here that they have misinterpreted him, are labeling him, are misinterpreting MMY, etc--but that none of it affects him and that he still loves us. :) But this story about GD is kind of nice, so to save you the trouble of wading through quite a few MBs, here it is: YOUNG GURU DEV AND THE CAVE Maharishi tells the story of a young Guru Dev, who may have been around 11 or 12 years old at the time, and was a newcomer to the ashram of his Master: The Master had given young Guru Dev instruction in meditation. And he quietly told him to leave the hustle and bustle of the ashram and go practice in silence, in the caves in the hills nearby. So for some time, young Guru Dev was not seen much around the ashram. The Master's ashram had many people in it, including some senior disciples who had been with the Master for decades, and were very learned in the Vedas. They had some subtle ego about their posi- tion, and some resentment of the obvious deep relationship young Guru Dev, a mere boy, had developed so quickly with their Master. So, when he disappeared from the ashram, they were secretly pleased, assuming that he'd done something to displease the Master, or was found to be too young and immature to handle the ashram life. One day, after many months had passed, a holiday approached and the Master expressed to his senior staff a desire to take a re- treat of silence in a cave up in the hills. He sent his top dis- ciple to the hills to seek out and prepare a proper cave for him to reside in. He reminded the disciple that young Guru Dev was living in one of those caves, and because of his familiarity with the area, he should be consulted about the cave selection. So the chief disciple arrived at the caves in the hills, and sought out young Guru Dev, finding him meditating in his cave. The chief disciple said: I am on a very important mission for the Master. He has sent me here to find him an empty cave in which to reside. Please help me to find one suitable for him - unoccupied, clean, large, dry, etc. - since you are familiar with this area. After a brief hesitation, young Guru Dev said: Please tell the Master: 'There is no empty cave here'. The chief disciple, thinking that the young boy was not taking the mission seriously, said: Of course there are empty caves here; I passed some on my way to find you. Please help me to find a suit- able one! The Master has commanded it. Quietly, but firmly, young Guru Dev said: Are you not here on a mission for the Master? Are you not his messenger? The chief disciple answered: Yes, but... No 'buts' said young Guru Dev. You may be the chief disciple, but today your role is that of a messenger. You were instructed to bring me a question, and now your job is to take my answer back to the Master. Respectfully, I ask that you please do just that, do your duty. The question from the Master, to be asked of me, was 'Is there a suitable empty cave there?' The answer I'd like you to deliver, word-for-word, is: 'There is no empty cave here'. The chief disciple, astounded at the audacity of this young boy to speak to him this way, left. He surveyed some caves on his own and then went back to the ashram to report on his mission, and especial- ly this arrogant boy's behavior, to the Master. But first, he discussed this rudeness with the other senior disci- ples. They agreed that it would be most instructive (and embarras- sing), to young Guru Dev, and to other young disciples, to have this issue raised in the ashram-wide satsang that happened with the Master each afternoon. They knew that young Guru Dev came down from his cave each Friday for supplies, and attended the satsang, and they waited patiently overnight, since the next day was Friday. Overnight, the ashram was abuzz with rumors of the young boy who had disrespected the chief disciple, and the Master. Everyone made a point to attend the afternoon satsang to see what the Master would do to this insolent boy. At the appropriate time in the satsang, the elder disciples moved to broach the subject. But rather than appear blatantly accusatory, they instead chose to bring up the subject in the form of a hypo- thetical knowledge question. They asked: Master, is it not a great sin for a disciple to disrespect or disobey the Master? And is that sin not extended to the senior disciples of the Master, acting on his business? Master, is not the punishment for such a serious offense, banishment from the ashram? To all of these, the Master responded yes. Having set the stage in this way, the senior disciple then related the behavior of young Guru Dev the previous day, and the members of the ashram were shocked. The Master
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi: Where we want to take our people.
Has anyone ever told Maharishi ever that of the thousands who moved and left FF, many many many people become more impoverished than ever and, it seems, for many, the longer they stayed on this *wonderful program to smash poverty* the more poverty stricken they became? It's still both unfathomable to me (and others) and unconscionable (is that a word?!) of him that he/TM org. could still be making this claim. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All from December 1, 2005: Maharishi: How do you smash poverty? You take poverty to the extreme level, where there is absolutely nothing. And you have smashed poverty. And when there is absolutely nothing, you find absolutely everything. And that is real richness. Real richness is real richness. Underline this thing a thousand times. Real richness is not in the countable wealth -- million, billion, trillion, and whatever -- it's not in terms of wealth. In terms of the source of all wealth. Source of infinite wealth. That you desire and the thing is there. You wish -- the thing is there. That is real wealthy. And to this class we want to raise the poor. ...It's not concerned with countable coins and wealth, but it is in terms of that affluence which is a field of all possibilities. All wealth is an aspect of it. But wealth is not -- alone -- total life. There is power. There is power. And there is knowledge. And there is bliss. ...Our poverty removal is -- removal of anything that may not be totality. Removal of anything that is not totality. And that is one's own self-sufficiency. One's own consciousness. One's own consciousness. And that is predominantly a matter of attention. Attention. ...We have the program of poverty removal, and this is in terms of the worldly understanding of it. But when we know from where we are functioning for these, and where we want to take our people, we want to take our people -- not to a wealth which can be minimized, or which can be stolen away, or which can be a cause of pains and tears. But a level where bliss is moving, where the waves are the waves of bliss. . Dreaming state of consciousness is -- something is seen in terms of something else. There is a tree, and you see it like a lion jumping on you. This is dream. sp; Something is seen as something else. God Consciousness is also: something seen in terms of something else. You see a mango tree, and you see Krishna is there, and you see this Vishnu is there. Something seen in terms of something else. That is God Consciousness. God Consciousness. Something seen as something else. You see something, but you see God in it. You see something -- God in it. . Poverty means a man is poor. That means he has less money. Now when we want him to have more money, our program is to completely deprive him of anything that even he has now. And that we say -- that is our program to eliminate poverty. He has some money -- he is poor. Now we want him to have more money. The program is: To deprive him for whatever he has -- take him to a vacuum state. Take him to the hollowness. To nothingness. To abstraction. To unmanifest. And show -- prove to him that he has everything. He got everything. In one sense we take him to nothingness. And in the same sense, miraculously, we put him to deprivation of nothingness. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Illusion of individuality; labels; true bhakti; the story of Guru Dev and hi
Personally I think that MDG is a moodmaker who feels compelled to tell us all how great he is (repeatedly and ad nauseum) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I liked this post a lot. It is an honest account of Goodman's personal path and of his own insights and discriminations. I find Goodman's relationship to MMY have similar qualities than the TM-teacher I meet every now and then at lunch. That teacher has done the re-certification course. All the apparent absurdities in the movement don't bother him. He is somehow happily beyond them. There is something very beautiful and innocent in his relationship to MMY. The absurdities of the movement seem to have had a softening and moulding effect on his earlier quite rigid beliefs and attachments. I respect his devotion very much and I consider him to be doing fine. To be a `true believer' in this way is a fine and beautiful thing. To be a TB in a way as to using one's only right belief as a justification to morally low actions, and abuse and control of others is an distorted form, but quite common. This form of the TB phenomenon has mostly been discussed here and this discussion is very important. My main criticism is of Goodman's post is that he tries to make wrong this kind of discussion. Or at least he claims reasoning in those lines to be at the same level as the fundamentalist's reasoning, only from the opposite direction. I disagree. Sometimes fundamentalism can become wrapped in rigid rationality or rationalisations and use of science as religion. In those cases his criticism is appropriate, otherwise not. I also disagree with the idea that no one is objective until they are re-established in the Self. I claim that we cannot even then be fully objective, to be representing the absolute truth. The absolute is beyond the manifest phenomenal world. When the I becomes established in the transcendental, it becomes very stable and dis-identified with ideas of oneself, gross or subtle emotions etc. This I has no form, not even truth as we understand it. This kind of I does not so easily identify with subjective states and therefore it is capable of looking at also internal phenomenon from a stable and calm position. It is very difficult to hurt this kind of I. Still it also always looks at things from a perspective, maybe from several perspectives, but never from all the possible and valid perspectives. I agree fully of the importance of surrendering the gross level calculating intellect as an ultimate guiding light. We cannot evolve to higher ways of being, or stages of development by relying on our intellect. Our intellect can create only variations of structures familiar to us. If we want to evolve we have to surrender and let ourselves to be guided. But simultaneously our discriminative capacity and sound judgement are great assets in avoiding pitfalls while surrendering. Otherwise surrendering may insidiously change to regression. And we start using intellect to find justifications to our morally low actions. However the reality is usually more complicated than this division because often surrender and regression are both present and we are not capable of discriminating them from each other. I also personally feel to be strongly guided. Not by any single being in physical form, present or past, rather by all of them. I have also surrendered to and am also guided by the transcendental that is beyond my understanding and intellect. Irmeli --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Dean Goodman Tantra@ wrote: THE STRUGGLE OF INDIVIDUALITY TO PERPETUATE ITS ILLUSION I feel compassionately sad whenever I meet those who still cling to the idea that their individuality (individual intellect) can guide them to the goal of realization, of remembering, of waking up again to Reality. They're sure that they don't need a guide on the path, don't need to surrender control, don't need to ask for help, and don't need to embrace their intellect's incompetence and impotence to handle the job. They are sure that their relative, finite intellect, bound in the world of space and time, can grok and master infinity, the field without boundaries, far beyond the ken of the relative intellect. That is delusion, that is arrogance of the deepest kind, that is the very essence of ignorance. Their individual ego/intellect has convinced them to trust it (not only to trust it, but to actually believe that they ARE it), and to never entertain the idea that the ego/intellect's assertion of its importance and ability to guide them back home IS ITSELF THE VERY CRUX OF THE PROBLEM, the very core of the ignorance. HIRING THE THIEF TO CATCH THE THIEF It is like hiring the master cat burglar (albeit in his clever dis- guise as the 'great detective') to solve the string of (his) burglar- ies. The great
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: Bhakti is that thing that t3rinity thinks that Michael Dean Goodman practices, and that he blasted Irmeli for attacking when she criticized MDG's logic. The fact that, AFAIK, neither MDG or Irmeli ever used the word 'bhakti' and almost certainly didn't have bhakti in their minds when they wrote what they wrote has nothing to do with it. There are a few things that intrigue me about t3rinity. Does he consciously distort our views just because they irritate him? Or does he have some sort of dyslexia and he does not properly understand written text? Neither. Or probably he is not competent in formal operational thinking and hence puts together concepts and ideas illogically, forgets what he attacked at and claimed in an earlier post and claims the opposite in the next post. His rules of throwing out ideas seem to be that something sounds good, and he has heard someone use the phrase, and it seems to make a good striking weapon at the very moment. He has no hesitation using ideas this way even if he one post earlier claimed opposite. See, Irmeli, up until now I haven't heart any real logical argument from you, but just a series of ad hominems. Do you think that ad hominems constitute logical arguments? Do you think just calling something 'distorted', makes up for explaining why you think something is distorted? Or is it just that putting your opponent down, analysing him psychologically, and speculating about his private life, makes you yourself look so much more smart? Or rather not I think. And there seems to be an ego in him that gets very easily hurt. I have an ego, and I can get hurt. But I observe the same thing with others too. Why this long post of yours, if I didn't touch a nerve with you? No ego? All this points to weak skills in formal operational thinking, where principles rule, not the egos needs and hurts. He has apparently also found the principles: attack is the best defence and blame others for your own weaknesses successful survival strategies. There he however has made a grave mistake. If he uses these strategies also in his personal relationships, he must have faced many disappointments on that front. He most probably blames others for the disappointments and cannot see how the problems come from his way of relating to others. In this kind of situation he can get a lot of consolation from cherishing sentiments of bhakti towards a distant guru, with whom he cannot be in personal relationship. And that is fine, if it helps him. I'm sure he gets furious about this. If he does not, and laughs to this nonsense, then I certainly have wrong here. I don't feel totally comfortable posting this, but here inside me resides also a challenger, who thinks, that an effective way of confronting certain repeating dysfunctional patterns, is by trying to bring the structures to the open, even if it might cause some turmoil. And you thought the best way to do so is by ad hominems, basically calling me names, dysfunctional? Really. Why don't you look at the real arguments and attend to them? I really find t3rinity's way of communicating appalling. And your ad hominems aren't? What do you think, I should think of your way of communicating, like this letter, with no substance and wild psychological speculations? This I think is a bad way to communicate. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bhakti is that thing that t3rinity thinks that Michael Dean Goodman practices, I don't know how often I should tell it to you: I am not talking about Bhakti practise, but about the Bhakti sentiment, which IMO plays a great role in any spiritual path, at least any Indian based. and that he blasted Irmeli for attacking when she criticized MDG's logic. Neither. I critized her for the way she characterized his 'idealizations' and called it egoism. For me it is natural that a devotee will revere his Guru, and its not a sign of his egoism, but of his devotion. This is basically what I said. I wrote it right there, you can go back and read it. But I think, what really made her mad on me was my implication, that she don't recognize this sentiment, because she doesn't have in in herself. Her spiritual development may be on different lines at the moment, thats okay. But I believe spiritual deveöopemnt is incomplete without this sentiment of Love and a developed heart. Whatever reverence MDG has for his Guru is a natural expression of his heart. That doesn't of course mean that all his arguments a correct, and that I agree with him totally. Simply I appreciate this elememt of reverence for his teacher, while you don't. IOW you mock at it as egoistic. There is of course nothing wrong with disagreeing with his arguments as such. But that I wasn't talking about. The fact that, AFAIK, neither MDG or Irmeli ever used the word 'bhakti' and almost certainly didn't have bhakti in their minds when they wrote what they wrote has nothing to do with it. Of course. But you can use other phrases like 'appreciation', 'devotion' etc. And of course they didn't use it, since this is my psychological characterization of his 'idealization'. Again, I reapeat, Irmeli called this idealization egoistic. I disagreed with that characterization and attributed it to a reverence, i.e. Bhakti to the teacher. Now, please note Barry, when I have said in the past, that I think, along with Ramana Maharshi and Ramakrishna, that Bhakti and Jnana are both completementary and will merge, this doesn't have to express itself as Guru bhakti of course. I really don't know what is so difficult to understand about this. Of course, there is a background. Ususally in our culture, which is based on the unfoldment of the ego, the value of submission, or devotion to an authorithy is looked down upon and ridiculled. That's what I obviously don't like. This is certainly a larger context which is worth discussing. E.G. in our society the value of the free expression of the individual ego is regarded higher that love and devotion to God, as can be seen in the caricature scandal. I just like to point out, that this is a case of cultural arrogance or dominance IMO. I don't think I am dysfunctional to think so. Well and if you think thats dysfunctional, then I am quite okay with it. I found it somewhat intriguing when Irmeli said that she knows two or three people who have Bhakti (Love for God). I was talking about her, and felt it was missing in her. So she indirectly admitted that I was right. I think the equation is, if someone is challenging it, it's probably bhakti. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
On Mar 10, 2006, at 1:42 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 10, 2006, at 10:58 AM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Mar 9, 2006, at 8:42 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Mar 9, 2006, at 6:38 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: snip Wow, tat's a lot of words! Which you obviously don't want to deal with. Especially your oh-so-convenient forgettery with regard to your post on the checking procedure. The simple answer is this: Checking shows how the mechanics of effort are used. In fact, the simple answer is that checking shows how the mechanics of effort are *not* used. Again: If you didn't get this, you never got what TM is. The bottom line in this case is simple: if it uses patched placement, that is if it uses some method where the mind has to be brought back to *something* (in this case the mantra) in order to work, Right. Not the case with TM except in the early stages of practice. Think: What is the mind brought back *from* in TM? Exactly--that which needed patched. If it didn't need patched (if you didn't need to meditate), you'd experience the transcendent through all states! But if it is being brought back from the transcendent, it *is* being patched. Oh well, subtle effort. So much talk. Says Vaj, avoiding responding to my question, just as I predicted: (Vaj won't respond to this, just as Barry didn't respond to a similar question from Lawson.) To address his nonresponse on its own terms: There is no bringing back in TM, either from transcendence or from the recognition (thought) that one is not thinking the mantra. If Vaj was meditating by bringing back the mind from either to the mantra, he most certainly wasn't doing TM. Ignoratio elenchi. Wrongaroonie (unless you're referring to your own nonresponse). Your question has already been answered numerous times, you just can't accept what you're hearing is all. My question was: What is the mind brought back from? That was a *rhetorical* question, you see. The answer is: It is not brought back from anything. But perhaps you miswrote. Would you care to rephrase your assertion so that it actually *applies* to TM? Or you're certainly welcome to try to *defend* the phrase brought back in the TM context if you really believe it does apply. If you aren't willing or able to do either, I believe I have grounds for suspecting you're thoroughly confused about what is involved in TM practice. Nothing new here. sigh Indeed. Very wise sharing on that by Rick (I also received a number of posts off list on that one where numerous people shared similar experiences). Oh, yes, we know, Vaj, you remind us often about how you have access to all *kinds* of privileged data. Well you heard the same thing if you were *listening*. He posted it here. He posted what you had received offlist? As you've been told several times, it was posted here--actually Rick has posted it here, on this list, three times. Yes, you've said that already. Perhaps you didn't understand my question: Rick has posted here, three times, what you had received offlist? The response should be a simple Yes or No. Really if you have questions You seem to be imagining things. I didn't ask a question. Actually you asked what Mahesh said specifically at Estes Park several times--so did your side kick. If by sidekick you mean Lawson, and if by question you mean what MMY had said specifically at Estes Park, we asked *you* because you were the person who had brought it up. The answer to our question therefore was, I don't know exactly what he said at Estes Park. But somehow it seems to be impossible for you to say I don't know. I have every reason to believe what Rick is saying not only because he was there and I trust him, but also because I understand experientially what's going on. Fine. The answer to my question, the one you're for some reason unable to voice, is still I don't know exactly what MMY said at Estes Park. It's beyond me as to why you are so entrenched in denying the obvious It's beyond me as to why you are so entrenched in denying that you beat your wife. What's obvious is that it *isn't* obvious, but rather a source of considerable confusion even among those who have been trained as TM teachers. --but it's a common thing you do, this TM apologist trip. Whatever. If there weren't such confusion,
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: snip Just look at what you wrote above. Based on the fact that I don't follow a bhakti path and am willing to look at both the up-sides and down-sides of bhakti (both of which definitely exist), you declare that there is no love in my life. Wrong. I said 'If' and the you can be substituted for a 'one', it wasn't a personal you. And I clearly explained several times, that I was not speaking about Bhakti as a path, but as a sentiment. But maybe you just didn't have your cup of coffee yet. For the record, I responded to Barry on this same point before I'd read this from Michael. Judy, with you I have a perfect logical resonance. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How shocking. I mean Michael's posts are so concise, the point of each so blazingly clear within the first line or two, stated in such a manner as to be unmistakable, that it is almost impossible for me to believe anyone could miss one. I agree with you, Judy, (shaking heard) I honestly don't know how Barry or anyone else could miss the point of any of Michael's posts. Must be all that French wine. (Don't shake your heard *too* hard.) Sal, I must congratulate you on the extraordinary profundity of your contributions to this forum. But I have to say, I got what Michael was saying from his first post, so it can't be *that* heard, er, hard. And I got it each of the several times he repeated it in different words, in his attempts to clarify for Barry. Each time, Barry found a way to misunderstand it differently. Each time, he blamed the confusion on Michael. It isn't as if this is the first time he's done it, either. It's chronic with him, in conversations with Michael or anyone else with whom he doesn't want to agree. The purpose is to keep them from making their point, you see, through continual obfuscation. It's a very well-practiced technique that he's perfected over many years. On Mar 10, 2006, at 9:46 AM, authfriend wrote: All the above is in aid of Barry avoiding the fact that once again he missed Michael's point. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi: Where we want to take our people.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonyff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone ever told Maharishi ever that of the thousands who moved and left FF, many many many people become more impoverished than ever and, it seems, for many, the longer they stayed on this *wonderful program to smash poverty* the more poverty stricken they became? It's still both unfathomable to me (and others) and unconscionable (is that a word?!) of him that he/TM org. could still be making this claim. And the chains holding us to do this, or to listen to this, are where? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Illusion of individuality; labels; true bhakti; the story of Guru Dev and hi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Dean Goodman Tantra@ wrote: THE STRUGGLE OF INDIVIDUALITY TO PERPETUATE ITS ILLUSION snipt out of compassion for bandwidth Scorecard: - Number of lines: 593 - Number of words: 5,337 - Number of pages: 14 - Flesch Reading Ease score: 70 (out of 100) - Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level score: 4.9 (almost fifth grade) - Outrage quotient: 100 (out of 100) - Hot air quotient: 100 (out of 100) - Self-importance quotient: 100 (out of 100) Thanks Barry for this final confirmation: I was right about you. As this is obviously all you can say about the topic, it is actually true, you have no idea about Bhakti. Poor you! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In this kind of situation he can get a lot of consolation from cherishing sentiments of bhakti towards a distant guru, with whom he cannot be in personal relationship. And that is fine, if it helps him. Oh, I had missed this. See how much you are projecting: I donnot have a relationship to a *distant* Guru, but to a *near* Guru. Thats not MMY. So, yes I know what I am talking about, and, no, I am not interested in you. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 10, 2006, at 1:42 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Mar 10, 2006, at 10:58 AM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Mar 9, 2006, at 8:42 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Mar 9, 2006, at 6:38 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: snip Wow, tat's a lot of words! Which you obviously don't want to deal with. Especially your oh-so-convenient forgettery with regard to your post on the checking procedure. The simple answer is this: Checking shows how the mechanics of effort are used. In fact, the simple answer is that checking shows how the mechanics of effort are *not* used. Again: If you didn't get this, you never got what TM is. The bottom line in this case is simple: if it uses patched placement, that is if it uses some method where the mind has to be brought back to *something* (in this case the mantra) in order to work, Right. Not the case with TM except in the early stages of practice. Think: What is the mind brought back *from* in TM? Exactly--that which needed patched. If it didn't need patched (if you didn't need to meditate), you'd experience the transcendent through all states! But if it is being brought back from the transcendent, it *is* being patched. Oh well, subtle effort. So much talk. Says Vaj, avoiding responding to my question, just as I predicted: (Vaj won't respond to this, just as Barry didn't respond to a similar question from Lawson.) To address his nonresponse on its own terms: There is no bringing back in TM, either from transcendence or from the recognition (thought) that one is not thinking the mantra. If Vaj was meditating by bringing back the mind from either to the mantra, he most certainly wasn't doing TM. Ignoratio elenchi. Wrongaroonie (unless you're referring to your own nonresponse). Your question has already been answered numerous times, you just can't accept what you're hearing is all. My question was: What is the mind brought back from? That was a *rhetorical* question, you see. The answer is: It is not brought back from anything. But perhaps you miswrote. Would you care to rephrase your assertion so that it actually *applies* to TM? Or you're certainly welcome to try to *defend* the phrase brought back in the TM context if you really believe it does apply. If you aren't willing or able to do either, I believe I have grounds for suspecting you're thoroughly confused about what is involved in TM practice. Nothing new here. sigh Indeed. Very wise sharing on that by Rick (I also received a number of posts off list on that one where numerous people shared similar experiences). Oh, yes, we know, Vaj, you remind us often about how you have access to all *kinds* of privileged data. Well you heard the same thing if you were *listening*. He posted it here. He posted what you had received offlist? As you've been told several times, it was posted here--actually Rick has posted it here, on this list, three times. Yes, you've said that already. Perhaps you didn't understand my question: Rick has posted here, three times, what you had received offlist? The response should be a simple Yes or No. Really if you have questions You seem to be imagining things. I didn't ask a question. Actually you asked what Mahesh said specifically at Estes Park several times--so did your side kick. If by sidekick you mean Lawson, and if by question you mean what MMY had said specifically at Estes Park, we asked *you* because you were the person who had brought it up. The answer to our question therefore was, I don't know exactly what he said at Estes Park. But somehow it seems to be impossible for you to say I don't know. I have every reason to believe what Rick is saying not only because he was there and I trust him, but also because I understand experientially what's going on. Fine. The answer to my question, the one you're for some reason unable to voice, is still I don't know exactly what MMY said at Estes Park. It's beyond me as to why you are so entrenched in denying the obvious It's beyond me as to why you are so entrenched in denying that you beat your wife. What's obvious is that it
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson Irmeli.Mattsson@ wrote: In this kind of situation he can get a lot of consolation from cherishing sentiments of bhakti towards a distant guru, with whom he cannot be in personal relationship. And that is fine, if it helps him. Oh, I had missed this. See how much you are projecting: I donnot have a relationship to a *distant* Guru, but to a *near* Guru. Thats not MMY. So, yes I know what I am talking about, and, no, I am not interested in you. I wonder if Irmeli isn't getting you confused with Michael Dean Goodman... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi: Where we want to take our people.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer fairfieldlife@ wrote: That you desire and the thing is there. You wish -- the thing is there. Remember the discussions recently about why Maharishi so seldom follows through on his grand schemes? I think the answer to that question is right here. Because he really believes what he say above, there is never a *need* to follow through on the ideas. They were a reality to him the moment he thought of them. Just thinking of the idea meant that they were already well on the way to being manifest. I'd be willing to bet that he has never *noticed* the failed and abandoned projects over the years. He lost interest in them the moment he thought of the idea and set people to raising money for it. Not that this is a bad thing [token Seinfeldism], if you really have the ability to manifest your desires by just thinking them. But if you don't... Some themes MMY returns to again and again, and some he doesn't. Perhaps its a matter of testing the waters to see how receptive Reality is to a certain activity. Or perhaps he's testing the people he assigns to fulfill that desire of his. Or perhaps both. Or neither. Unfathomable are the ways of karma or whatever. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: enlightenment center
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, markmeredith2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well it's been about a year since the tm teacher recertification course, which wasn't about tm teaching at all but about opening maharishi enlightenment centers in malls around the country. It looks like bob wynne, one the key sources of the plan, is opening up the 1st one this weekend in iowa city. According to ffld weekly reader ad, there's open house this sunday from 12-3 pm - in the old capitol mall. If anyone's up there this sunday could they post a report? (Surprised they advertised in the weekly reader, as MUM prohibits advertising there for campus events and forbids its distribution on campus.) MUM policy is set by Bevan, i would think. Robert Wynne is not Bevan. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How shocking. I mean Michael's posts are so concise, the point of each so blazingly clear within the first line or two, stated in such a manner as to be unmistakable, that it is almost impossible for me to believe anyone could miss one. I agree with you, Judy, (shaking heard) I honestly don't know how Barry or anyone else could miss the point of any of Michael's posts. Must be all that French wine. Sal On Mar 10, 2006, at 9:46 AM, authfriend wrote: All the above is in aid of Barry avoiding the fact that once again he missed Michael's point. And yet, when I post one-liners here, I'm criticized for being too brief. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Illusion of individuality; labels; true bhakti; the story of Guru Dev and his cave
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 10, 2006, at 9:27 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: Scorecard: - Number of lines: 593 - Number of words: 5,337 - Number of pages: 14 - Flesch Reading Ease score: 70 (out of 100) - Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level score: 4.9 (almost fifth grade) - Outrage quotient: 100 (out of 100) - Hot air quotient: 100 (out of 100) - Self-importance quotient: 100 (out of 100) Number of condescending, egocentric remarks that clearly show Michael as a superior being who deigns to mingle every now and then with the rest of humanity: too many to count. Number of people keeping score here thus far: Three -- TurquoiseB, you, me. Perhaps no-one else cares... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
So many mood-makers, so little time. :) Sal On Mar 10, 2006, at 4:55 PM, authfriend wrote: I wonder if Irmeli isn't getting you confused with Michael Dean Goodman...
[FairfieldLife] Re: Illusion of individuality; labels; true bhakti; the story of Guru Dev and hi
Hey TurquoisB (TB for short), how about doing a similar analysis of Irmeli's comments on Michael's essay? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I liked this post a lot. It is an honest account of Goodman's personal path and of his own insights and discriminations. [...] --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Dean Goodman Tantra@ wrote: THE STRUGGLE OF INDIVIDUALITY TO PERPETUATE ITS ILLUSION [...] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi: Where we want to take our people.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonyff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone ever told Maharishi ever that of the thousands who moved and left FF, many many many people become more impoverished than ever and, it seems, for many, the longer they stayed on this *wonderful program to smash poverty* the more poverty stricken they became? It's still both unfathomable to me (and others) and unconscionable (is that a word?!) of him that he/TM org. could still be making this claim. Are the people on program in Fairfield happy with their lives, both inside and outside? Then they are wealthy in the way that MMY has talked about: enjoying 200% of life. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer fairfieldlife@ wrote: All from December 1, 2005: Maharishi: How do you smash poverty? You take poverty to the extreme level, where there is absolutely nothing. And you have smashed poverty. And when there is absolutely nothing, you find absolutely everything. And that is real richness. [...] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Illusion of individuality; labels; true bhakti; the story of Guru Dev and hi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Dean Goodman Tantra@ wrote: THE STRUGGLE OF INDIVIDUALITY TO PERPETUATE ITS ILLUSION snipt out of compassion for bandwidth Scorecard: - Number of lines: 593 - Number of words: 5,337 - Number of pages: 14 - Flesch Reading Ease score: 70 (out of 100) - Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level score: 4.9 (almost fifth grade) - Outrage quotient: 100 (out of 100) - Hot air quotient: 100 (out of 100) - Self-importance quotient: 100 (out of 100) Thanks Barry for this final confirmation: I was right about you. As this is obviously all you can say about the topic, it is actually true, you have no idea about Bhakti. Poor you! I don't know if Barry knows anything about Bhakti or not, but it is obvious that THIS comment was merely meant to score points. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson Irmeli.Mattsson@ wrote: In this kind of situation he can get a lot of consolation from cherishing sentiments of bhakti towards a distant guru, with whom he cannot be in personal relationship. And that is fine, if it helps him. Oh, I had missed this. See how much you are projecting: I donnot have a relationship to a *distant* Guru, but to a *near* Guru. Thats not MMY. So, yes I know what I am talking about, and, no, I am not interested in you. I wonder if Irmeli isn't getting you confused with Michael Dean Goodman... I get confused on that point also. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: For t3rinity
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All this back-and-forth seems silly. I think you're just being overly sensitive about your chosen path and overreacting when people say things you feel criticize or challenge it. You probably disagree. It's Ok to have different paths, *and* to disagree. Let's allow the whole thing to drop, eh? Actually Bhaktis is not my choosen path, not Bhakti yoga at least as it is traditionally understood. It is something that occured to me, involuntarily. The back and forth is in part due to a series of constant misinterpretations of what I actually said. I will attempt to be more sensitive in the future when pointing out some of the things I perceive as the down sides of bhakti as it is commonly taught (which may *not* be what you have learned or what you practice). I will still mention them if and when I think it's appropriate to do so, similar to the warning labels on useful medications that say something like, This medication is potentially really good for you and can produce numerous benefits. However, some people have really, really overdone it with this medication and totally fucked up their lives and the lives of others. Caveat emptor. Think Valium. Useful drug, but easily abused, and devastating to the user and those around him *when* abused. I certainly understand what you are saying, it's not that I completely disagree. Its a question of evaluation. In this case, in MDG nor in my case it didn't seem to apply. So largely I see it as a distraction. So I will probably continue to print my homemade warning labels from time to time, but I will try to do so more gently, and with more humor. You might consider doing the same, and thinking a bit before you react to things said on this forum that push your buttons. MDG really *wasn't* talking about bhakti; Nor did I ever say he did: And yet he did so now, confirming my judgment about his 'style' Irmeli really *wasn't* dumping on it. Yes, of course. She said it was egoistic. (I don't have the exact phrase here anymore) She commented on the style. I say that the idealization (which I see) are a way of veneration and gratefulness. While she jumped just crudely on it - means - not recognizing it for what it was. On that kind of valuesystem, thinking you can evaluate somebody with your mind/ego, and not even remotely having any experience of 'Bhakti', that is of an opened heart to a teacher is just totally out of place. This is just an example. This goes on and on and on all the time here. Most of what goes on here all the time is silly. What I brought up, was therefore confirmed by MDG in a rather lengthy beautiful post. To me it confirmed that I was right. Neither of them had anything even remotely related to bhakti in their minds when they wrote what they wrote, as far as I can tell. For MDG not in his mind, but in his heart obviously. Thats what I mean: it needs one to recognize. What made it seem to you as if they did was your own oversensitivity to the issue and your tendency to see it and react to it. Sometimes, in my opinion, when the issue isn't even there. Yes, exactly my point: For *you* it is not there. For me and MDG it was. Bhakti is a wonderful path to enlightenment, but in my opinion one better followed than argued about. Signing off... I clearly respect your reconciliary tone Barry. I also didn't mean to intimitate you, I rather tried to clarify. My attitude is this: I may not agree with somebody, but I respect his feelings. If I meet a Sai Baba devotee, and I see he has love, I respect that love, I repsect his experiences. In that case I will not bring up any controversial critics. If a person is in conflict though, because of some unethical behaviour, if he has been exposed to such, I will certainly give my opinion.(Thats MY attitude) But the bottom line is: I respect his devotion. There is nothing wrong in it. Because I know it myself and anticipate it. Others obviously don't, and I really pitty them. Its not their fault. When you constantly throw around with phrases like 'True Blue Believer', I feel it is absolutely devoid of any message, because anyone who is here is exposed to a bombardment of negative or at least controversial material about MMY and the movement, and as far as I can tell most people here have a rather differentiated view on the movement. It just serves as a label, as a deragoratory remark, to 'push buttoms', and I really don't think in an intelligent way. So here you say: 'Oh, Michael its all okay, I really appreciate your way (for you)' and the very next moment you lash out again on someone in the same style. So, thats were we stand at it. My communication skills are surely not perfect, but I will make my point in future. I have seen too many childish dialogs here, to bother about my 'communication problems'. Maybe I'm a bit naive: but I really think that someone who doesn't have his
[FairfieldLife] Re: Illusion of individuality; labels; true bhakti; the story of Guru Dev and hi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Dean Goodman Tantra@ wrote: THE STRUGGLE OF INDIVIDUALITY TO PERPETUATE ITS ILLUSION snipt out of compassion for bandwidth Scorecard: - Number of lines: 593 - Number of words: 5,337 - Number of pages: 14 - Flesch Reading Ease score: 70 (out of 100) - Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level score: 4.9 (almost fifth grade) - Outrage quotient: 100 (out of 100) - Hot air quotient: 100 (out of 100) - Self-importance quotient: 100 (out of 100) Thanks Barry for this final confirmation: I was right about you. As this is obviously all you can say about the topic, it is actually true, you have no idea about Bhakti. Poor you! I don't know if Barry knows anything about Bhakti or not, but it is obvious that THIS comment was merely meant to score points. If so, I must share my award with Microsoft Word. It came up with the first five scores, including the one that determined that he was writing at a fifth-grade level. Only the last three scores were mine. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson Irmeli.Mattsson@ wrote: In this kind of situation he can get a lot of consolation from cherishing sentiments of bhakti towards a distant guru, with whom he cannot be in personal relationship. And that is fine, if it helps him. Oh, I had missed this. See how much you are projecting: I donnot have a relationship to a *distant* Guru, but to a *near* Guru. Thats not MMY. So, yes I know what I am talking about, and, no, I am not interested in you. I wonder if Irmeli isn't getting you confused with Michael Dean Goodman... No, don't think so. She just wrote that MDG was not as appalling as Trinity. I haven't signed with Michael I get confused on that point also. I am definitly somebody else, just my first name happens to be Michael as well. I like his posts, especially his last one.Its clear, authentic in my eyes. I don't have the same relationship to MMY than he has, but I am grateful to him for whatever I got and learned from him. MMY isn't my Guru anymore. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Illusion of individuality; labels; true bhakti; the story of Guru Dev and hi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Dean Goodman Tantra@ wrote: THE STRUGGLE OF INDIVIDUALITY TO PERPETUATE ITS ILLUSION snipt out of compassion for bandwidth Scorecard: - Number of lines: 593 - Number of words: 5,337 - Number of pages: 14 - Flesch Reading Ease score: 70 (out of 100) - Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level score: 4.9 (almost fifth grade) - Outrage quotient: 100 (out of 100) - Hot air quotient: 100 (out of 100) - Self-importance quotient: 100 (out of 100) Thanks Barry for this final confirmation: I was right about you. As this is obviously all you can say about the topic, it is actually true, you have no idea about Bhakti. Poor you! I don't know if Barry knows anything about Bhakti or not, but it is obvious that THIS comment was merely meant to score points. If so, I must share my award with Microsoft Word. It came up with the first five scores, including the one that determined that he was writing at a fifth-grade level. All by itself, without you asking it? Which version of Word is this, again? Only the last three scores were mine. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson Irmeli.Mattsson@ wrote: In this kind of situation he can get a lot of consolation from cherishing sentiments of bhakti towards a distant guru, with whom he cannot be in personal relationship. And that is fine, if it helps him. Oh, I had missed this. See how much you are projecting: I donnot have a relationship to a *distant* Guru, but to a *near* Guru. Thats not MMY. So, yes I know what I am talking about, and, no, I am not interested in you. I wonder if Irmeli isn't getting you confused with Michael Dean Goodman... No, don't think so. She just wrote that MDG was not as appalling as Trinity. I haven't signed with Michael True. But I wonder where she could have gotten the distant guru thing. That certainly applied to Michael Dean Goodman, but you didn't say anything to that effect at all. I get confused on that point also. I am definitly somebody else, just my first name happens to be Michael as well. I like his posts, especially his last one.Its clear, authentic in my eyes. I don't have the same relationship to MMY than he has, but I am grateful to him for whatever I got and learned from him. MMY isn't my Guru anymore. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Illusion of individuality; labels; true bhakti; the story of Guru Dev and hi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If so, I must share my award with Microsoft Word. I thought you had used wc http://www.computerhope.com/unix/uwc.htm Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] What is art? (was Re: What is Spirituality?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson Irmeli.Mattsson@ wrote: In this kind of situation he can get a lot of consolation from cherishing sentiments of bhakti towards a distant guru, with whom he cannot be in personal relationship. And that is fine, if it helps him. Oh, I had missed this. See how much you are projecting: I donnot have a relationship to a *distant* Guru, but to a *near* Guru. Thats not MMY. So, yes I know what I am talking about, and, no, I am not interested in you. I wonder if Irmeli isn't getting you confused with Michael Dean Goodman... No, don't think so. She just wrote that MDG was not as appalling as Trinity. I haven't signed with Michael True. But I wonder where she could have gotten the distant guru thing. That certainly applied to Michael Dean Goodman, but you didn't say anything to that effect at all. Probably speculation. In the same vein as she speculates about my broken relationships. She must have thought that as I defended MDG that I was referring to MMY as my Guru. She didn't get the differentiation I am making. I get confused on that point also. I am definitly somebody else, just my first name happens to be Michael as well. I like his posts, especially his last one.Its clear, authentic in my eyes. I don't have the same relationship to MMY than he has, but I am grateful to him for whatever I got and learned from him. MMY isn't my Guru anymore. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
