[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I was mostly exposed to Buddhist practices, and some Hindu and Taoist, before I learned TM. Also served in the Christian Church. Tried several types of meditation before learning TM, Buddhist mantra repetition, Christian contemplation, and Hindu chanting. When I learned TM, the experience was simply different, and mechanically effective, in spite of my skeptical and overwhelmed mind, so I stuck with it. It is the only technique that reliably got me out of my own way. No dogma - just the way I like it. Take it easy, take it as it comes - even when it don't come easy, and, When you are going through hell, keep on going. - in thee nutshell.:-) Oh, snap! Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Barry. It's always nice to start the day with a chuckle :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wrote: My opinion is that they developed the buddy system and all the other precautions because there had been a few really sad and serious situations where people did become unstable or have breakdowns while on various course, or even died. That is correct. Even though there were freakouts back on the India courses (one guy lost it and ran through the jungles screaming for several hours before they could catch him), the concern on the part of the TMO started, as I understand it, back in Estes Park, where people were having all sorts of mental and physical issues related to the long meds (no asanas then), so Maharishi tried rounding. When that didn't stop the negative effects of the longer periods of meditation, he started to talk about unstress- ing as related to this phenomenon, and claim that it was because Westerners carried more stress in their systems than people in India he had been more used to, and that it was a Good Thing, because, after all, stress was being released. And everybody just bought this, just as they had everything else he had said. The addition of asanas to program on courses didn't do anything to stop these negative side effects, however, as anyone who was on the Fiuggi course should remember. The first 2-3 rows at that course were reserved for heavy unstressers, and it was a real zoo. It looked like a convention of people suffering from epilepsy, Tourettes Syndrome, or both. Arms jerking and flying around, people grunting and yelling and moaning -- and all of this *in activity*, sitting in a lecture hall, not during program. In fact, most of these people were told to *stop* rounding and meditate normally, and *the symptoms did not go away*. For some of them these tics and jerks and uncontrollable spasms lasted for months. (Please note that all of this was the result of plain, vanilla TM, *long* before the Sidhis and *their* brand of grunting and twitching appeared upon the scene.) My guess is that most of these people were unstable before coming to the course. I suspect this happens in all spiritual groups and churches, too. What I'm trying to tell you is that -- based on my exper- ience and that of thousands of others who have attended in-residence long meditation courses in other techniques, NO SUCH PHENOMENA ARE PRESENT. No one ever had to make up rules or guidelines to deal with such extreme side effects, because they NEVER APPEARED. Personally, I believe that the basic laziness of the basic TM technique is at fault. The techniques of meditation at these other courses involved more focus. *Not*, as TMers were often told, concentrating on the mantra or other point of meditational focus, just being aware enough not to sit there for long periods time -- or for the whole meditation session -- lost in thoughts and daydreams. MMY thought this was OK, but most other traditions -- those based on *real* traditions as opposed to having been made up, like TM -- say that the lazy, effortless approach characterized by TM is debilitating, because long-term, this practice causes people to get stuck in the astral and become spaced out and reclusive and incapable of being grounded in activity. That's certainly what I saw on TM courses, but *never* on courses from these other traditions whose courses I attended. People who need a place to belong or to rest their weary and confused bones land in churches and Buddhist groups, etc. Not to argue, but I think such people would be more drawn to churches than most Buddhist groups I'm aware of, because in the latter one is expected to WORK, on a daily basis, at resolving one's own problems. There is never that sense that someone or something is going to do it for you that we see in churches and in New Age groups. For the TMO, to try and keep an eye on people somehow, people were paired into buddies so that a report would come if someone seemed odd. At which point, as I suggested earlier, NO ONE IN CHARGE OF THE COURSE WOULD KNOW WHAT TO DO. They had never been *trained* in what to do. In my considered opinion, the main reason for the Don't leave the course and the buddy rules was to keep spaced- out people from wandering around in the towns the courses were held in and thus giving TM and the TMO a bad name. That happened enough times in the early days that they were wary of it. But in retrospect I really believe that all of these side effects of longer periods of meditation
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
Seems to me that the fault is in the technique itself. turquoiseb I think he was just experimenting with made-up techniques... As opposed to taking acid in the desert and star-gazing with Rama? LoL! Apparently you've spent the major part of your adult life in and out of two cults MMY, the 'giggling guru' and Fred Lenz, the so-called 'cyber guru'. But, you didn't mention any others. Were there more? Go figure. Mindless psychobabble, credulous acceptance of religious and pseudo-science doctrines such as reincarnation and other artifacts of 'eastern wisdom' may leave certain followers vulnerable, mentally 'mushed-out,' and prone to manipulation by strong, charismatic leaders. 'The Dark Side of Hindu-Buddhist-New Age Pseudoscience' http://caic.org.au/eastern/chinmoy/chinmoy1.txt
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
doctordumbass: When I learned TM, the experience was simply different... Different and the same; different angle to dive but the same technique. The so-called 'Night Technique', MMY's sixth advance technique ue, corresponds to the second Kriya initiation taught by Paramahansa Yogananda, who recieved this technique from from Swami Sri Yukteswar Giri. It is the exact same technique that was taught to Sankaracharya by his guru Govindapadacharya. This has been confiremd by Swami Sivananda and Swami Venkatesananda of Rishikesh, Himalayas. Apparently at La Antilla TTC, all the advanced techniques were incorparated by MMY into the AoE. Marshy probably got them from former students of Yogananda. Many valid techniques exist, so there is really no difference between one type of authentic meditation and another, as long as they have the goal of helping you attain inner stillness and focus. (Page 6) In meditation, you do not make any attempt to give the mind a direct suggestion or to control the mind. You simply observe the mind and let it become quiet and calm, allowing your mantra to lead you deeper within, exploring and experiencing the deeper levels of your being. (Page 10) 'Meditation and Its Practice' by Swami Rama Himalayan Institute Press, 1992
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote: Dear Susan, I know that. You are one of the finest, loveliest and most loyalist oldest FFL member to post here and I can see that. But as my last act as Public Defender of the Faithful on FairfieldLife, I just had to say these things out loud on behalf of all tru-believers here who are not free and cannot speak for themselves here. May the Unified Field give them strength. I now leave the post of FFL Public Defender to others. Live long and prosper, go in peace. -Buck, in Life Buck, On behalf of many of us here, I want to thank you for your service in this regard. Many a cold wintry morning, I know you were in your car in the parking lot of the Maharishi Pantanjali Golden Dome. And many a hot afternoon, there you were as well, all for the cause of creating coherence in world conscioussness. And Buck, I know many us, felt an upsurge of pride when you received notice that you had formally been accepted to practice yogi flying in the actual confines of the dome. It was as though one of our own had finally been admitted into the inner sanctum. And you have carried the flag, not only of a ordinary participant of FFL, but as an actual resident of Fairfield. This, you let us know on a regular basis. I understand that you have carried this burden of public defender for a long time, and now, with a new year beginning, it is a good time to re-evaluate your responsibilities. Buck you have brought honor and distinction to this role. I am sure I am not alone in wishing that at some point you may reconsider this decision. With regards, seventhray27 aka steve
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
Indeed. I have also heard, through confidential sources, that Buck's dedication has caused the errant figment of an equatorial hurricane to flutter a butterfly's wing, somewhere in the Northern Hemisphere; infinite correlation. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seventhray27 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote: Dear Susan, I know that. You are one of the finest, loveliest and most loyalist oldest FFL member to post here and I can see that. But as my last act as Public Defender of the Faithful on FairfieldLife, I just had to say these things out loud on behalf of all tru-believers here who are not free and cannot speak for themselves here. May the Unified Field give them strength. I now leave the post of FFL Public Defender to others. Live long and prosper, go in peace. -Buck, in Life Buck, On behalf of many of us here, I want to thank you for your service in this regard. Many a cold wintry morning, I know you were in your car in the parking lot of the Maharishi Pantanjali Golden Dome. And many a hot afternoon, there you were as well, all for the cause of creating coherence in world conscioussness. And Buck, I know many us, felt an upsurge of pride when you received notice that you had formally been accepted to practice yogi flying in the actual confines of the dome. It was as though one of our own had finally been admitted into the inner sanctum. And you have carried the flag, not only of a ordinary participant of FFL, but as an actual resident of Fairfield. This, you let us know on a regular basis. I understand that you have carried this burden of public defender for a long time, and now, with a new year beginning, it is a good time to re-evaluate your responsibilities. Buck you have brought honor and distinction to this role. I am sure I am not alone in wishing that at some point you may reconsider this decision. With regards, seventhray27 aka steve
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson wrote: Damn it Barry - I know a lot of people on here revile you and I admit when you express disdain or contempt you tend to do it like Jon Jones does his opponents in the Octagon (if you have ever watched one of Jones' matches, he appears to be some sort of alien in his abilities to maul his opponents - for what it is worth, I only watch MMA bouts when I visit my brother who is addicted to them) I've never watched one, period, so I don't know who you're talking about. But you have an ability to nail certain things I am doing or have done in the past. In this instance, at that time period of the 1990's I definitely had the idea that rounding was something that was only safe if one had an experienced meditation teacher to take care of you, in case you had some roughness or something. I suspect almost everyone here had that idea, although most will be afraid to admit it. In truth I also always had two reactions to rounding when it was just TM (pre-sidhis rounding) I slept during the meetings (especially Larry Domash and Hagelin tapes) and ate like a hog. One of the things I loved the most about the old residence courses in Charleston SC and Atlanta was the food - so I didn't want to be responsible for feeding myself while rounding and missing out on some good vittles that someone else cooked. I also realize that even as I read your post that old programming about rounding only on a TM course was still in my awareness. Mar-chee did his job of programming very well. One of the reasons I brought this topic up is to point out to people who've never thought about such things the unchallenged assumptions that they still carry around with them about rounding. They pretty much *assume* that it's going to make them spaced out, possibly a little crazy, and too fragile to handle things like going out in public or cooking for themselves. Just to provide a contrast, I would suggest that these beliefs (and the actualities they are based on) are unique to the TM movement, its techniques, and the way it handles retreats or residence courses. I've been on courses given by other organization in which we were meditating (with no asanas or TM-style rounding) for up to 8-10 hours a day. But everyone -- all course participants -- were free to do whatever they wanted. They could attend talks or not, go sightseeing or meditate, drive their cars, go swimming in the ocean, even go scuba diving if they wanted. NO ONE ever had any problems doing this. I believe that part of the reason is that they were TOLD that it might happen, the way that they were in the TMO. I also believe that there is something WRONG with the basic TM technique and the Sidhis as made up by MMY that makes them *create* such spacey, out-of-control behaviour in people who practice them more than a few minutes each day. Ask around in almost any other meditation tradition that gives retreats or courses in which people meditate longer than usual. Ask whether they have any rules about needing a buddy to take care of them or having to remain on the course premises or if there is an expectation that people will become spaced out. I have found, as have most of the people I've encountered from these other traditions, that if the meditation is doing what it is supposed to do (which is to improve clarity of mind and a very 'grounded' balance and stability in action) that it will do MORE of that on courses in which people were meditating longer. That was certainly my experience. So why did Maharishi and the TMO assume the opposite, that people on courses as short as over a two-day weekend needed to be supervised and watched by buddies and confined to quarters so that they wouldn't do something stupid or hurt themselves? Seems to me that the fault is in the technique itself. From: turquoiseb To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 12:05 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up  I'm just going to riff off of one small aspect of your post, because it triggered a train of thought that I found inter- esting and wanted to rap about. No disrespect to the rest of your excellent post, really. :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson wrote: Quite by accident or perhaps by Cosmic Design, I became aware of some things that disturbed me a fair amount with the behavior of Bevan and other members of the TMO who were creating some shenanigans in Heavenly Mountain - it was really the Boone, NC stuff that made me decide not to have anything to do with the TMO except maybe round sometime... Have you ever noticed that one of the never-noticed and never-spoken-of assumptions that many people make, *including* those who have stepped back from involve- ment in the TMO, is that
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: One of the reasons I brought this topic up is to point out to people who've never thought about such things the unchallenged assumptions that they still carry around with them about rounding. They pretty much *assume* that it's going to make them spaced out, possibly a little crazy, and too fragile to handle things like going out in public or cooking for themselves. Just to provide a contrast, I would suggest that these beliefs (and the actualities they are based on) are unique to the TM movement, its techniques, and the way it handles retreats or residence courses. I've been on courses given by other organization in which we were meditating (with no asanas or TM-style rounding) for up to 8-10 hours a day. But everyone -- all course participants -- were free to do whatever they wanted. They could attend talks or not, go sightseeing or meditate, drive their cars, go swimming in the ocean, even go scuba diving if they wanted. NO ONE ever had any problems doing this. I believe that part of the reason is that they were TOLD that it might happen, the way that they were in the TMO. I also believe that there is something WRONG with the basic TM technique and the Sidhis as made up by MMY that makes them *create* such spacey, out-of-control behaviour in people who practice them more than a few minutes each day. Ask around in almost any other meditation tradition that gives retreats or courses in which people meditate longer than usual. Ask whether they have any rules about needing a buddy to take care of them or having to remain on the course premises or if there is an expectation that people will become spaced out. I have found, as have most of the people I've encountered from these other traditions, that if the meditation is doing what it is supposed to do (which is to improve clarity of mind and a very 'grounded' balance and stability in action) that it will do MORE of that on courses in which people were meditating longer. That was certainly my experience. So why did Maharishi and the TMO assume the opposite, that people on courses as short as over a two-day weekend needed to be supervised and watched by buddies and confined to quarters so that they wouldn't do something stupid or hurt themselves? Seems to me that the fault is in the technique itself. In other words, which came first, the aberrant behavior that became described as unstressing, or the explanation of it AS unstressing, and as Something good is happening? I suspect that Maharishi had to make up the unstressing idea to provide some explanation to people for why they were experiencing things during longer periods of meditation that they should be, or that they would ever have exper- ienced using other forms of meditation that actually came from a long-established tradition (as opposed to having been made up, like TM was, by MMY). I think he was just experimenting with made-up techniques, using human beings as his guinea pigs, and because his own narcissism didn't allow him to admit that the techniques he'd made up had some pretty undesirable side effects when practiced more than a few minutes every day, he had to make up a cover story to make it seem as if these side effects were actually *desirable*. And voila. Tens of thousands of people now believe that when they go away for a weekend or longer on a TM course and find themselves experiencing roughness that THEY WOULD NEVER EXPERIENCE WITH OTHER FORMS OF MEDITATION, that all of this is a Good Thing.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson wrote: Damn it Barry - I know a lot of people on here revile you and I admit when you express disdain or contempt you tend to do it like Jon Jones does his opponents in the Octagon (if you have ever watched one of Jones' matches, he appears to be some sort of alien in his abilities to maul his opponents - for what it is worth, I only watch MMA bouts when I visit my brother who is addicted to them) I've never watched one, period, so I don't know who you're talking about. But you have an ability to nail certain things I am doing or have done in the past. In this instance, at that time period of the 1990's I definitely had the idea that rounding was something that was only safe if one had an experienced meditation teacher to take care of you, in case you had some roughness or something. I suspect almost everyone here had that idea, although most will be afraid to admit it. In truth I also always had two reactions to rounding when it was just TM (pre-sidhis rounding) I slept during the meetings (especially Larry Domash and Hagelin tapes) and ate like a hog. One of the things I loved the most about the old residence courses in Charleston SC and Atlanta was the food - so I didn't want to be responsible for feeding myself while rounding and missing out on some good vittles that someone else cooked. I also realize that even as I read your post that old programming about rounding only on a TM course was still in my awareness. Mar-chee did his job of programming very well. One of the reasons I brought this topic up is to point out to people who've never thought about such things the unchallenged assumptions that they still carry around with them about rounding. They pretty much *assume* that it's going to make them spaced out, possibly a little crazy, and too fragile to handle things like going out in public or cooking for themselves. Just to provide a contrast, I would suggest that these beliefs (and the actualities they are based on) are unique to the TM movement, its techniques, and the way it handles retreats or residence courses. I've been on courses given by other organization in which we were meditating (with no asanas or TM-style rounding) for up to 8-10 hours a day. But everyone -- all course participants -- were free to do whatever they wanted. They could attend talks or not, go sightseeing or meditate, drive their cars, go swimming in the ocean, even go scuba diving if they wanted. NO ONE ever had any problems doing this. I believe that part of the reason is that they were TOLD that it might happen, the way that they were in the TMO. I also believe that there is something WRONG with the basic TM technique and the Sidhis as made up by MMY that makes them *create* such spacey, out-of-control behaviour in people who practice them more than a few minutes each day. Ask around in almost any other meditation tradition that gives retreats or courses in which people meditate longer than usual. Ask whether they have any rules about needing a buddy to take care of them or having to remain on the course premises or if there is an expectation that people will become spaced out. I have found, as have most of the people I've encountered from these other traditions, that if the meditation is doing what it is supposed to do (which is to improve clarity of mind and a very 'grounded' balance and stability in action) that it will do MORE of that on courses in which people were meditating longer. That was certainly my experience. So why did Maharishi and the TMO assume the opposite, that people on courses as short as over a two-day weekend needed to be supervised and watched by buddies and confined to quarters so that they wouldn't do something stupid or hurt themselves? My opinion is that they developed the buddy system and all the other precautions because there had been a few really sad and serious situations where people did become unstable or have breakdowns while on various course, or even died. My guess is that most of these people were unstable before coming to the course. I suspect this happens in all spiritual groups and churches, too. People who need a place to belong or to rest their weary and confused bones land in churches and Buddhist groups, etc. For the TMO, to try and keep an eye on people somehow, people were paired into buddies so that a report would come if someone seemed odd. Seems to me that the fault is in the technique itself. From: turquoiseb To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 12:05 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up  I'm just going to riff off of one
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: One of the reasons I brought this topic up is to point out to people who've never thought about such things the unchallenged assumptions that they still carry around with them about rounding. They pretty much *assume* that it's going to make them spaced out, possibly a little crazy, and too fragile to handle things like going out in public or cooking for themselves. Just to provide a contrast, I would suggest that these beliefs (and the actualities they are based on) are unique to the TM movement, its techniques, and the way it handles retreats or residence courses. I've been on courses given by other organization in which we were meditating (with no asanas or TM-style rounding) for up to 8-10 hours a day. But everyone -- all course participants -- were free to do whatever they wanted. They could attend talks or not, go sightseeing or meditate, drive their cars, go swimming in the ocean, even go scuba diving if they wanted. NO ONE ever had any problems doing this. I believe that part of the reason is that they were TOLD that it might happen, the way that they were in the TMO. I also believe that there is something WRONG with the basic TM technique and the Sidhis as made up by MMY that makes them *create* such spacey, out-of-control behaviour in people who practice them more than a few minutes each day. Ask around in almost any other meditation tradition that gives retreats or courses in which people meditate longer than usual. Ask whether they have any rules about needing a buddy to take care of them or having to remain on the course premises or if there is an expectation that people will become spaced out. I have found, as have most of the people I've encountered from these other traditions, that if the meditation is doing what it is supposed to do (which is to improve clarity of mind and a very 'grounded' balance and stability in action) that it will do MORE of that on courses in which people were meditating longer. That was certainly my experience. So why did Maharishi and the TMO assume the opposite, that people on courses as short as over a two-day weekend needed to be supervised and watched by buddies and confined to quarters so that they wouldn't do something stupid or hurt themselves? Seems to me that the fault is in the technique itself. In other words, which came first, the aberrant behavior that became described as unstressing, or the explanation of it AS unstressing, and as Something good is happening? I suspect that Maharishi had to make up the unstressing idea to provide some explanation to people for why they were experiencing things during longer periods of meditation that they should be, or that they would ever have exper- ienced using other forms of meditation that actually came from a long-established tradition (as opposed to having been made up, like TM was, by MMY). I think he was just experimenting with made-up techniques, using human beings as his guinea pigs, and because his own narcissism didn't allow him to admit that the techniques he'd made up had some pretty undesirable side effects when practiced more than a few minutes every day, he had to make up a cover story to make it seem as if these side effects were actually *desirable*. And voila. Tens of thousands of people now believe that when they go away for a weekend or longer on a TM course and find themselves experiencing roughness that THEY WOULD NEVER EXPERIENCE WITH OTHER FORMS OF MEDITATION, that all of this is a Good Thing. AGreed that thinking that roughness is a good thing is not a good thing. Leads to ignoring genuine problems like the need for medication or therapy or even exercise. Personally, I think TM 20 minutes twice a day, for most people, is relaxing and healthy. The way the mantra is used is so easy, and the mantras are standard, not invented by MMY. For most, it helps and does not harm. As for using TM in rounding, for hours a day, I am not sure. I would want to know the statistics from other organizations about what types of people attend such course, and how mnay become unstable or disoriented. For me, the issue with TM has always been the shame they place on people getting help that they need - whether meds or therapy. I think that attitude has done real harm to many, who ignore their illnesses and needs out of fear that they will be labelled and banned from the Domes and courses.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wrote: My opinion is that they developed the buddy system and all the other precautions because there had been a few really sad and serious situations where people did become unstable or have breakdowns while on various course, or even died. That is correct. Even though there were freakouts back on the India courses (one guy lost it and ran through the jungles screaming for several hours before they could catch him), the concern on the part of the TMO started, as I understand it, back in Estes Park, where people were having all sorts of mental and physical issues related to the long meds (no asanas then), so Maharishi tried rounding. When that didn't stop the negative effects of the longer periods of meditation, he started to talk about unstress- ing as related to this phenomenon, and claim that it was because Westerners carried more stress in their systems than people in India he had been more used to, and that it was a Good Thing, because, after all, stress was being released. And everybody just bought this, just as they had everything else he had said. The addition of asanas to program on courses didn't do anything to stop these negative side effects, however, as anyone who was on the Fiuggi course should remember. The first 2-3 rows at that course were reserved for heavy unstressers, and it was a real zoo. It looked like a convention of people suffering from epilepsy, Tourettes Syndrome, or both. Arms jerking and flying around, people grunting and yelling and moaning -- and all of this *in activity*, sitting in a lecture hall, not during program. In fact, most of these people were told to *stop* rounding and meditate normally, and *the symptoms did not go away*. For some of them these tics and jerks and uncontrollable spasms lasted for months. (Please note that all of this was the result of plain, vanilla TM, *long* before the Sidhis and *their* brand of grunting and twitching appeared upon the scene.) My guess is that most of these people were unstable before coming to the course. I suspect this happens in all spiritual groups and churches, too. What I'm trying to tell you is that -- based on my exper- ience and that of thousands of others who have attended in-residence long meditation courses in other techniques, NO SUCH PHENOMENA ARE PRESENT. No one ever had to make up rules or guidelines to deal with such extreme side effects, because they NEVER APPEARED. Personally, I believe that the basic laziness of the basic TM technique is at fault. The techniques of meditation at these other courses involved more focus. *Not*, as TMers were often told, concentrating on the mantra or other point of meditational focus, just being aware enough not to sit there for long periods time -- or for the whole meditation session -- lost in thoughts and daydreams. MMY thought this was OK, but most other traditions -- those based on *real* traditions as opposed to having been made up, like TM -- say that the lazy, effortless approach characterized by TM is debilitating, because long-term, this practice causes people to get stuck in the astral and become spaced out and reclusive and incapable of being grounded in activity. That's certainly what I saw on TM courses, but *never* on courses from these other traditions whose courses I attended. People who need a place to belong or to rest their weary and confused bones land in churches and Buddhist groups, etc. Not to argue, but I think such people would be more drawn to churches than most Buddhist groups I'm aware of, because in the latter one is expected to WORK, on a daily basis, at resolving one's own problems. There is never that sense that someone or something is going to do it for you that we see in churches and in New Age groups. For the TMO, to try and keep an eye on people somehow, people were paired into buddies so that a report would come if someone seemed odd. At which point, as I suggested earlier, NO ONE IN CHARGE OF THE COURSE WOULD KNOW WHAT TO DO. They had never been *trained* in what to do. In my considered opinion, the main reason for the Don't leave the course and the buddy rules was to keep spaced- out people from wandering around in the towns the courses were held in and thus giving TM and the TMO a bad name. That happened enough times in the early days that they were wary of it. But in retrospect I really believe that all of these side effects of longer periods of meditation were the result of the TM technique. I say this based on my *own exper- ience*, both with TM and with a number of other techniques, and both on TM residence courses and those given by the teachers of these other techniques of meditation. And, of course, on similar experiences reported by thousands of people who had studied the latter techniques, vs. thousands of people who studied TM. You don't have rules and regs to deal with heavy unstressing on these other courses
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
They do it with TM, because TM is the only technique that operates without conscious intervention. The other stuff you are talking about may make you feel all cozy and spiritual, but it doesn't do jack wrt to long term changes. You are our best example of that. Despite all your crap about TM, it is clear to me that you have been stuck in the mud since you quit. Like Bob, I don't mind gently trying to return you to reality, when you get lost in one of your mental cul-de-sacs. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wrote: My opinion is that they developed the buddy system and all the other precautions because there had been a few really sad and serious situations where people did become unstable or have breakdowns while on various course, or even died. That is correct. Even though there were freakouts back on the India courses (one guy lost it and ran through the jungles screaming for several hours before they could catch him), the concern on the part of the TMO started, as I understand it, back in Estes Park, where people were having all sorts of mental and physical issues related to the long meds (no asanas then), so Maharishi tried rounding. When that didn't stop the negative effects of the longer periods of meditation, he started to talk about unstress- ing as related to this phenomenon, and claim that it was because Westerners carried more stress in their systems than people in India he had been more used to, and that it was a Good Thing, because, after all, stress was being released. And everybody just bought this, just as they had everything else he had said. The addition of asanas to program on courses didn't do anything to stop these negative side effects, however, as anyone who was on the Fiuggi course should remember. The first 2-3 rows at that course were reserved for heavy unstressers, and it was a real zoo. It looked like a convention of people suffering from epilepsy, Tourettes Syndrome, or both. Arms jerking and flying around, people grunting and yelling and moaning -- and all of this *in activity*, sitting in a lecture hall, not during program. In fact, most of these people were told to *stop* rounding and meditate normally, and *the symptoms did not go away*. For some of them these tics and jerks and uncontrollable spasms lasted for months. (Please note that all of this was the result of plain, vanilla TM, *long* before the Sidhis and *their* brand of grunting and twitching appeared upon the scene.) My guess is that most of these people were unstable before coming to the course. I suspect this happens in all spiritual groups and churches, too. What I'm trying to tell you is that -- based on my exper- ience and that of thousands of others who have attended in-residence long meditation courses in other techniques, NO SUCH PHENOMENA ARE PRESENT. No one ever had to make up rules or guidelines to deal with such extreme side effects, because they NEVER APPEARED. Personally, I believe that the basic laziness of the basic TM technique is at fault. The techniques of meditation at these other courses involved more focus. *Not*, as TMers were often told, concentrating on the mantra or other point of meditational focus, just being aware enough not to sit there for long periods time -- or for the whole meditation session -- lost in thoughts and daydreams. MMY thought this was OK, but most other traditions -- those based on *real* traditions as opposed to having been made up, like TM -- say that the lazy, effortless approach characterized by TM is debilitating, because long-term, this practice causes people to get stuck in the astral and become spaced out and reclusive and incapable of being grounded in activity. That's certainly what I saw on TM courses, but *never* on courses from these other traditions whose courses I attended. People who need a place to belong or to rest their weary and confused bones land in churches and Buddhist groups, etc. Not to argue, but I think such people would be more drawn to churches than most Buddhist groups I'm aware of, because in the latter one is expected to WORK, on a daily basis, at resolving one's own problems. There is never that sense that someone or something is going to do it for you that we see in churches and in New Age groups. For the TMO, to try and keep an eye on people somehow, people were paired into buddies so that a report would come if someone seemed odd. At which point, as I suggested earlier, NO ONE IN CHARGE OF THE COURSE WOULD KNOW WHAT TO DO. They had never been *trained* in what to do. In my considered opinion, the main reason for the Don't leave the course and the buddy rules was to keep spaced- out people from wandering around in the towns the courses were held in and thus giving TM and the TMO a bad name. That
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: I've been on courses given by other organization in which we were meditating (with no asanas or TM-style rounding) for up to 8-10 hours a day. But everyone -- all course participants -- were free to do whatever they wanted. They could attend talks or not, go sightseeing or meditate, drive their cars, go swimming in the ocean, even go scuba diving if they wanted. NO ONE ever had any problems doing this. Ofcourse. If you do some mumbojumbo moodmaking that has no effect one carries on as usual afterwards because nothing happened :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: You don't have rules and regs to deal with heavy unstressing on these other courses BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT NEEDED. No such experiences ever arise for the course participants. Why do they with TM? Because in contrast to the Buddhist meditations that is commonly available, TM works. That's why more and more Buddhist monestaries in South-East Asia is introducing TM as a part of their routine.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wrote: My opinion is that they developed the buddy system and all the other precautions because there had been a few really sad and serious situations where people did become unstable or have breakdowns while on various course, or even died. That is correct. Even though there were freakouts back on the India courses (one guy lost it and ran through the jungles screaming for several hours before they could catch him), the concern on the part of the TMO started, as I understand it, back in Estes Park, where people were having all sorts of mental and physical issues related to the long meds (no asanas then), so Maharishi tried rounding. When that didn't stop the negative effects of the longer periods of meditation, he started to talk about unstress- ing as related to this phenomenon, and claim that it was because Westerners carried more stress in their systems than people in India he had been more used to, and that it was a Good Thing, because, after all, stress was being released. And everybody just bought this, just as they had everything else he had said. The addition of asanas to program on courses didn't do anything to stop these negative side effects, however, as anyone who was on the Fiuggi course should remember. The first 2-3 rows at that course were reserved for heavy unstressers, and it was a real zoo. It looked like a convention of people suffering from epilepsy, Tourettes Syndrome, or both. Arms jerking and flying around, people grunting and yelling and moaning -- and all of this *in activity*, sitting in a lecture hall, not during program. In fact, most of these people were told to *stop* rounding and meditate normally, and *the symptoms did not go away*. For some of them these tics and jerks and uncontrollable spasms lasted for months. (Please note that all of this was the result of plain, vanilla TM, *long* before the Sidhis and *their* brand of grunting and twitching appeared upon the scene.) My guess is that most of these people were unstable before coming to the course. I suspect this happens in all spiritual groups and churches, too. What I'm trying to tell you is that -- based on my exper- ience and that of thousands of others who have attended in-residence long meditation courses in other techniques, NO SUCH PHENOMENA ARE PRESENT. No one ever had to make up rules or guidelines to deal with such extreme side effects, because they NEVER APPEARED. Personally, I believe that the basic laziness of the basic TM technique is at fault. The techniques of meditation at these other courses involved more focus. *Not*, as TMers were often told, concentrating on the mantra or other point of meditational focus, just being aware enough not to sit there for long periods time -- or for the whole meditation session -- lost in thoughts and daydreams. MMY thought this was OK, but most other traditions -- those based on *real* traditions as opposed to having been made up, like TM -- say that the lazy, effortless approach characterized by TM is debilitating, because long-term, this practice causes people to get stuck in the astral and become spaced out and reclusive and incapable of being grounded in activity. That's certainly what I saw on TM courses, but *never* on courses from these other traditions whose courses I attended. People who need a place to belong or to rest their weary and confused bones land in churches and Buddhist groups, etc. Not to argue, but I think such people would be more drawn to churches than most Buddhist groups I'm aware of, because in the latter one is expected to WORK, on a daily basis, at resolving one's own problems. There is never that sense that someone or something is going to do it for you that we see in churches and in New Age groups. For the TMO, to try and keep an eye on people somehow, people were paired into buddies so that a report would come if someone seemed odd. At which point, as I suggested earlier, NO ONE IN CHARGE OF THE COURSE WOULD KNOW WHAT TO DO. They had never been *trained* in what to do. In my considered opinion, the main reason for the Don't leave the course and the buddy rules was to keep spaced- out people from wandering around in the towns the courses were held in and thus giving TM and the TMO a bad name. That happened enough times in the early days that they were wary of it. But in retrospect I really believe that all of these side effects of longer periods of meditation were the result of the TM technique. I say this based on my *own exper- ience*, both with TM and with a number of other techniques, and both on TM residence courses and those given by the teachers of these other techniques of meditation. And, of course, on similar experiences reported by thousands of people who
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@... wrote: They do it with TM, because TM is the only technique that operates without conscious intervention. The other stuff you are talking about may make you feel all cozy and spiritual, but it doesn't do jack wrt to long term changes. And you know this HOW? Oh yeah...that's what you were *told* by the person who *sold* you the only form of meditation you have ever practiced. :-) I just can't wait for other dweebs such as yourself who have never practiced ANY form of meditation other than TM to chime in on this thread and tell us how superior TM is to these other techniques *they have never tried, and never experienced*. :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wrote: My opinion is that they developed the buddy system and all the other precautions because there had been a few really sad and serious situations where people did become unstable or have breakdowns while on various course, or even died. That is correct. Even though there were freakouts back on the India courses (one guy lost it and ran through the jungles screaming for several hours before they could catch him), the concern on the part of the TMO started, as I understand it, back in Estes Park, where people were having all sorts of mental and physical issues related to the long meds (no asanas then), so Maharishi tried rounding. When that didn't stop the negative effects of the longer periods of meditation, he started to talk about unstress- ing as related to this phenomenon, and claim that it was because Westerners carried more stress in their systems than people in India he had been more used to, and that it was a Good Thing, because, after all, stress was being released. And everybody just bought this, just as they had everything else he had said. The addition of asanas to program on courses didn't do anything to stop these negative side effects, however, as anyone who was on the Fiuggi course should remember. The first 2-3 rows at that course were reserved for heavy unstressers, and it was a real zoo. It looked like a convention of people suffering from epilepsy, Tourettes Syndrome, or both. Arms jerking and flying around, people grunting and yelling and moaning -- and all of this *in activity*, sitting in a lecture hall, not during program. In fact, most of these people were told to *stop* rounding and meditate normally, and *the symptoms did not go away*. For some of them these tics and jerks and uncontrollable spasms lasted for months. (Please note that all of this was the result of plain, vanilla TM, *long* before the Sidhis and *their* brand of grunting and twitching appeared upon the scene.) My guess is that most of these people were unstable before coming to the course. I suspect this happens in all spiritual groups and churches, too. What I'm trying to tell you is that -- based on my exper- ience and that of thousands of others who have attended in-residence long meditation courses in other techniques, NO SUCH PHENOMENA ARE PRESENT. No one ever had to make up rules or guidelines to deal with such extreme side effects, because they NEVER APPEARED. Personally, I believe that the basic laziness of the basic TM technique is at fault. The techniques of meditation at these other courses involved more focus. *Not*, as TMers were often told, concentrating on the mantra or other point of meditational focus, just being aware enough not to sit there for long periods time -- or for the whole meditation session -- lost in thoughts and daydreams. MMY thought this was OK, but most other traditions -- those based on *real* traditions as opposed to having been made up, like TM -- say that the lazy, effortless approach characterized by TM is debilitating, because long-term, this practice causes people to get stuck in the astral and become spaced out and reclusive and incapable of being grounded in activity. That's certainly what I saw on TM courses, but *never* on courses from these other traditions whose courses I attended. People who need a place to belong or to rest their weary and confused bones land in churches and Buddhist groups, etc. Not to argue, but I think such people would be more drawn to churches than most Buddhist groups I'm aware of, because in the latter one is expected to WORK, on a daily basis, at resolving one's own problems. There is never that sense that someone or something is going to do it for you that we see in churches and in New Age groups. For the TMO, to try and keep an eye on people somehow, people were paired into buddies so that a report would come if someone seemed odd. At which point, as I suggested earlier, NO ONE IN CHARGE OF THE COURSE WOULD
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
Hi Susan, I think this shaming and kicking people out has ended. Friends currently in the Dome: a recert gov who recently attended several John Newton and Paul Wong events; an active counselor who's been on IAA from the beginning; a gov who teaches her own healing process. I'll add that the recert gov friend socializes with individuals who are leaders either at MUM or in DLF. From: Susan waybac...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 6:28 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up snip For me, the issue with TM has always been the shame they place on people getting help that they need - whether meds or therapy. I think that attitude has done real harm to many, who ignore their illnesses and needs out of fear that they will be labelled and banned from the Domes and courses.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wrote: My opinion is that they developed the buddy system and all the other precautions because there had been a few really sad and serious situations where people did become unstable or have breakdowns while on various course, or even died. That is correct. Even though there were freakouts back on the India courses (one guy lost it and ran through the jungles screaming for several hours before they could catch him), the concern on the part of the TMO started, as I understand it, back in Estes Park, where people were having all sorts of mental and physical issues related to the long meds (no asanas then), so Maharishi tried rounding. When that didn't stop the negative effects of the longer periods of meditation, he started to talk about unstress- ing as related to this phenomenon, and claim that it was because Westerners carried more stress in their systems than people in India he had been more used to, and that it was a Good Thing, because, after all, stress was being released. And everybody just bought this, just as they had everything else he had said. The addition of asanas to program on courses didn't do anything to stop these negative side effects, however, as anyone who was on the Fiuggi course should remember. The first 2-3 rows at that course were reserved for heavy unstressers, and it was a real zoo. It looked like a convention of people suffering from epilepsy, Tourettes Syndrome, or both. Arms jerking and flying around, people grunting and yelling and moaning -- and all of this *in activity*, sitting in a lecture hall, not during program. In fact, most of these people were told to *stop* rounding and meditate normally, and *the symptoms did not go away*. For some of them these tics and jerks and uncontrollable spasms lasted for months. (Please note that all of this was the result of plain, vanilla TM, *long* before the Sidhis and *their* brand of grunting and twitching appeared upon the scene.) Doesn't seem to happen any more, though, does it? Wonder what changed? Anybody have any ideas? My guess is that most of these people were unstable before coming to the course. I suspect this happens in all spiritual groups and churches, too. What I'm trying to tell you is that -- based on my exper- ience and that of thousands of others who have attended in-residence long meditation courses in other techniques, NO SUCH PHENOMENA ARE PRESENT. No one ever had to make up rules or guidelines to deal with such extreme side effects, because they NEVER APPEARED. You've spoken with these thousands of people to find out what their experience has been? How many such courses have you attended, and how many different techniques were involved? Personally, I believe that the basic laziness of the basic TM technique is at fault. The techniques of meditation at these other courses involved more focus. *Not*, as TMers were often told, concentrating on the mantra or other point of meditational focus, just being aware enough not to sit there for long periods time -- or for the whole meditation session -- lost in thoughts and daydreams. With these other techniques, in that state of enough awareness, what is it that reminds the meditator to return to the mantra or other point of meditational focus?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
Oh goody! Does this mean people who wrote books on Jyotish can go back into the domes? I remember one of the names, Dave Hawthrone? (spelling?) He has a book about using the most effective point as taught by a Dr. in India. When I hear he is welcomed back into the domes, I will believe in the below words. Tell me it is so!!! --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Hi Susan, I think this shaming and kicking people out has ended. Friends currently in the Dome: a recert gov who recently attended several John Newton and Paul Wong events; an active counselor who's been on IAA from the beginning; a gov who teaches her own healing process. I'll add that the recert gov friend socializes with individuals who are leaders either at MUM or in DLF. From: Susan To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 6:28 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up snip  For me, the issue with TM has always been the shame they place on people getting help that they need - whether meds or therapy. I think that attitude has done real harm to many, who ignore their illnesses and needs out of fear that they will be labelled and banned from the Domes and courses.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
Obba, I will not be David Hawthorne's beard (-: The 3 examples I cited are the three examples I see with my very own eyes. Meaning I see these women friends in the Dome. And I see and or know of them in relation to these other activities. It is so! Perhaps Buck can help with regards to David Hawthorne? To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 10:24 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up Oh goody! Does this mean people who wrote books on Jyotish can go back into the domes? I remember one of the names, Dave Hawthrone? (spelling?) He has a book about using the most effective point as taught by a Dr. in India. When I hear he is welcomed back into the domes, I will believe in the below words. Tell me it is so!!! --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Hi Susan, I think this shaming and kicking people out has ended. Friends currently in the Dome: a recert gov who recently attended several John Newton and Paul Wong events; an active counselor who's been on IAA from the beginning; a gov who teaches her own healing process. I'll add that the recert gov friend socializes with individuals who are leaders either at MUM or in DLF. From: Susan To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 6:28 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up snip  For me, the issue with TM has always been the shame they place on people getting help that they need - whether meds or therapy. I think that attitude has done real harm to many, who ignore their illnesses and needs out of fear that they will be labelled and banned from the Domes and courses.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
kicking people out has ended? No that is hopeful wishing and they would like you to believe that. The guidelines have changed some little. However the course office is still very actively hunting people down and the Dome application is still about file work as case work and quite invasive. So it is. Even that last push in December around our push to have numbers meditating for those end-of-times dates they were actively both kicking people out of the Domes and denying applications. It is not very hopeful. They have not changed much this way even though the personnel has shifted around a little. However, that little video still catches the tone of it all. [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiKZjq0vTWg ] The guidelines have a lot of base fear in them that still gets put in to everything related to the Domes and the movement. It is their culture, God the Unified Field help 'em and all of us. -Buck --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Obba, I will not be David Hawthorne's beard (-: The 3 examples I cited are the three examples I see with my very own eyes. Meaning I see these women friends in the Dome. And I see and or know of them in relation to these other activities. It is so! Perhaps Buck can help with regards to David Hawthorne? To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 10:24 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up  Oh goody! Does this mean people who wrote books on Jyotish can go back into the domes? I remember one of the names, Dave Hawthrone? (spelling?) He has a book about using the most effective point as taught by a Dr. in India. When I hear he is welcomed back into the domes, I will believe in the below words. Tell me it is so!!! --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Hi Susan, I think this shaming and kicking people out has ended.àFriends currently in the Dome:àa recert gov who recently attended several John Newton and Paul Wong events; an active counselor who's been on IAA from the beginning; a gov who teaches her own healing process.àI'll add that the recert gov friend socializes with individuals who are leaders either at MUM or in DLF.àFrom: Susan To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 6:28 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up snip àFor me, the issue with TM has always been the shame they place on people getting help that they need - whether meds or therapy. I think that attitude has done real harm to many, who ignore their illnesses and needs out of fear that they will be labelled and banned from the Domes and courses.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
Now hold on here - in my case you are talking to someone who has not been in Dome since 1987 - when I was there you had to either have a valid student, staff or faculty id card or have paid for Superradiance - I don't remember anything about applications - you have to apply to get in the Dome? And no fees? What kinds of info do they have on the Dome application? From: Buck dhamiltony...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 1:28 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up kicking people out has ended? No that is hopeful wishing and they would like you to believe that. The guidelines have changed some little. However the course office is still very actively hunting people down and the Dome application is still about file work as case work and quite invasive. So it is. Even that last push in December around our push to have numbers meditating for those end-of-times dates they were actively both kicking people out of the Domes and denying applications. It is not very hopeful. They have not changed much this way even though the personnel has shifted around a little. However, that little video still catches the tone of it all. [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiKZjq0vTWg ] The guidelines have a lot of base fear in them that still gets put in to everything related to the Domes and the movement. It is their culture, God the Unified Field help 'em and all of us. -Buck --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Obba, I will not be David Hawthorne's beard (-: The 3 examples I cited are the three examples I see with my very own eyes. Meaning I see these women friends in the Dome. And I see and or know of them in relation to these other activities. It is so! Perhaps Buck can help with regards to David Hawthorne? To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 10:24 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up  Oh goody! Does this mean people who wrote books on Jyotish can go back into the domes? I remember one of the names, Dave Hawthrone? (spelling?) He has a book about using the most effective point as taught by a Dr. in India. When I hear he is welcomed back into the domes, I will believe in the below words. Tell me it is so!!! --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Hi Susan, I think this shaming and kicking people out has ended. Friends currently in the Dome: a recert gov who recently attended several John Newton and Paul Wong events; an active counselor who's been on IAA from the beginning; a gov who teaches her own healing process. I'll add that the recert gov friend socializes with individuals who are leaders either at MUM or in DLF. From: Susan To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 6:28 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up snip  For me, the issue with TM has always been the shame they place on people getting help that they need - whether meds or therapy. I think that attitude has done real harm to many, who ignore their illnesses and needs out of fear that they will be labelled and banned from the Domes and courses.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
Share, this is an example of seeing what you want to believe and justifying it by picking out a tiny detail of your experience (your three examples) and projecting it as the means to negate the larger truth of the TMO behavior. Sheep mentality. Completely illogical and irrational. Maybe it is not true! But, why deal in reality? It works for your life, continue on. If you were ever to be healed of the trauma of your early childhood - what would you do next? Of course, I understand that there is a larger picture still, with regard to the overall good you believe you are doing and I don't question that, personally. From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 8:43 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up Obba, I will not be David Hawthorne's beard (-: The 3 examples I cited are the three examples I see with my very own eyes. Meaning I see these women friends in the Dome. And I see and or know of them in relation to these other activities. It is so! Perhaps Buck can help with regards to David Hawthorne? To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 10:24 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up Oh goody! Does this mean people who wrote books on Jyotish can go back into the domes? I remember one of the names, Dave Hawthrone? (spelling?) He has a book about using the most effective point as taught by a Dr. in India. When I hear he is welcomed back into the domes, I will believe in the below words. Tell me it is so!!! --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Hi Susan, I think this shaming and kicking people out has ended. Friends currently in the Dome: a recert gov who recently attended several John Newton and Paul Wong events; an active counselor who's been on IAA from the beginning; a gov who teaches her own healing process. I'll add that the recert gov friend socializes with individuals who are leaders either at MUM or in DLF. From: Susan To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 6:28 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up snip  For me, the issue with TM has always been the shame they place on people getting help that they need - whether meds or therapy. I think that attitude has done real harm to many, who ignore their illnesses and needs out of fear that they will be labelled and banned from the Domes and courses.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Hi Susan, I think this shaming and kicking people out has ended. Friends currently in the Dome: a recert gov who recently attended several John Newton and Paul Wong events; an active counselor who's been on IAA from the beginning; a gov who teaches her own healing process. I'll add that the recert gov friend socializes with individuals who are leaders either at MUM or in DLF. Glad to hear this and it is very different than 20 years ago From: Susan To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 6:28 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up snip  For me, the issue with TM has always been the shame they place on people getting help that they need - whether meds or therapy. I think that attitude has done real harm to many, who ignore their illnesses and needs out of fear that they will be labelled and banned from the Domes and courses.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wrote: My opinion is that they developed the buddy system and all the other precautions because there had been a few really sad and serious situations where people did become unstable or have breakdowns while on various course, or even died. That is correct. Even though there were freakouts back on the India courses (one guy lost it and ran through the jungles screaming for several hours before they could catch him), the concern on the part of the TMO started, as I understand it, back in Estes Park, where people were having all sorts of mental and physical issues related to the long meds (no asanas then), so Maharishi tried rounding. When that didn't stop the negative effects of the longer periods of meditation, he started to talk about unstress- ing as related to this phenomenon, and claim that it was because Westerners carried more stress in their systems than people in India he had been more used to, and that it was a Good Thing, because, after all, stress was being released. And everybody just bought this, just as they had everything else he had said. The addition of asanas to program on courses didn't do anything to stop these negative side effects, however, as anyone who was on the Fiuggi course should remember. The first 2-3 rows at that course were reserved for heavy unstressers, and it was a real zoo. It looked like a convention of people suffering from epilepsy, Tourettes Syndrome, or both. Arms jerking and flying around, people grunting and yelling and moaning -- and all of this *in activity*, sitting in a lecture hall, not during program. In fact, most of these people were told to *stop* rounding and meditate normally, and *the symptoms did not go away*. For some of them these tics and jerks and uncontrollable spasms lasted for months. (Please note that all of this was the result of plain, vanilla TM, *long* before the Sidhis and *their* brand of grunting and twitching appeared upon the scene.) My guess is that most of these people were unstable before coming to the course. I suspect this happens in all spiritual groups and churches, too. What I'm trying to tell you is that -- based on my exper- ience and that of thousands of others who have attended in-residence long meditation courses in other techniques, NO SUCH PHENOMENA ARE PRESENT. No one ever had to make up rules or guidelines to deal with such extreme side effects, because they NEVER APPEARED. Personally, I believe that the basic laziness of the basic TM technique is at fault. The techniques of meditation at these other courses involved more focus. *Not*, as TMers were often told, concentrating on the mantra or other point of meditational focus, just being aware enough not to sit there for long periods time -- or for the whole meditation session -- lost in thoughts and daydreams. MMY thought this was OK, but most other traditions -- those based on *real* traditions as opposed to having been made up, like TM -- say that the lazy, effortless approach characterized by TM is debilitating, because long-term, this practice causes people to get stuck in the astral and become spaced out and reclusive and incapable of being grounded in activity. That's certainly what I saw on TM courses, but *never* on courses from these other traditions whose courses I attended. People who need a place to belong or to rest their weary and confused bones land in churches and Buddhist groups, etc. Not to argue, but I think such people would be more drawn to churches than most Buddhist groups I'm aware of, because in the latter one is expected to WORK, on a daily basis, at resolving one's own problems. There is never that sense that someone or something is going to do it for you that we see in churches and in New Age groups. For the TMO, to try and keep an eye on people somehow, people were paired into buddies so that a report would come if someone seemed odd. At which point, as I suggested earlier, NO ONE IN CHARGE OF THE COURSE WOULD KNOW WHAT TO DO. They had never been *trained* in what to do. In my considered opinion, the main reason for the Don't leave the course and the buddy rules was to keep spaced- out people from wandering around in the towns the courses were held in and thus giving TM and the TMO a bad name. That happened enough times in the early days that they were wary of it. But in retrospect I really believe that all of these side effects of longer periods of meditation were the result of the TM technique. I say this based on my *own exper- ience*, both with TM and with a number of other techniques, and both on TM residence courses and those given by the teachers of these other techniques of meditation. And, of course, on similar experiences reported by thousands of people who
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson wrote: Now hold on here - in my case you are talking to someone who has not been in Dome since 1987 - when I was there you had to either have a valid student, staff or faculty id card or have paid for Superradiance - I don't remember anything about applications - you have to apply to get in the Dome? And no fees? What kinds of info do they have on the Dome application? No, its not what is on the application. It's what is in the files that have actively been built on you. It can be pretty shocking to some people to learn what the course office people have gathered in to files and are gathering about people's private lives. It is not innocent or simple. It is rather aggressive. Evidently this is in the nature of their culture and seemingly is having a cultivated negative influence on every thing and every body around it. Hence the community and numbers are what they are. They have a problem and the problem is them. It is really sad. From: Buck To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 1:28 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up  kicking people out has ended? No that is hopeful wishing and they would like you to believe that. The guidelines have changed some little. However the course office is still very actively hunting people down and the Dome application is still about file work as case work and quite invasive. So it is. Even that last push in December around our push to have numbers meditating for those end-of-times dates they were actively both kicking people out of the Domes and denying applications. It is not very hopeful. They have not changed much this way even though the personnel has shifted around a little. However, that little video still catches the tone of it all. [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiKZjq0vTWg ] The guidelines have a lot of base fear in them that still gets put in to everything related to the Domes and the movement. It is their culture, God the Unified Field help 'em and all of us. -Buck --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Obba, I will not be David Hawthorne's beard (-: The 3 examples I cited are the three examples I see with my very own eyes.àMeaning I see these women friends in the Dome.àAnd I see and or know of them in relation to these other activities.àIt is so! Perhaps Buck can help with regards to David Hawthorne? To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 10:24 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up àOh goody! Does this mean people who wrote books on Jyotish can go back into the domes? I remember one of the names, Dave Hawthrone? (spelling?) He has a book about using the most effective point as taught by a Dr. in India. When I hear he is welcomed back into the domes, I will believe in the below words. Tell me it is so!!! --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Hi Susan, I think this shaming and kicking people out has ended.ÃâàFriends currently in the Dome:Ãâàa recert gov who recently attended several John Newton and Paul Wong events; an active counselor who's been on IAA from the beginning; a gov who teaches her own healing process.ÃâàI'll add that the recert gov friend socializes with individuals who are leaders either at MUM or in DLF.ÃâàFrom: Susan To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 6:28 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up snip ÃâàFor me, the issue with TM has always been the shame they place on people getting help that they need - whether meds or therapy. I think that attitude has done real harm to many, who ignore their illnesses and needs out of fear that they will be labelled and banned from the Domes and courses.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
But how do people learn there are files on them? How do they know what kind of info the TMO has on them? From: Buck dhamiltony...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 2:37 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson wrote: Now hold on here - in my case you are talking to someone who has not been in Dome since 1987 - when I was there you had to either have a valid student, staff or faculty id card or have paid for Superradiance - I don't remember anything about applications - you have to apply to get in the Dome? And no fees? What kinds of info do they have on the Dome application? No, its not what is on the application. It's what is in the files that have actively been built on you. It can be pretty shocking to some people to learn what the course office people have gathered in to files and are gathering about people's private lives. It is not innocent or simple. It is rather aggressive. Evidently this is in the nature of their culture and seemingly is having a cultivated negative influence on every thing and every body around it. Hence the community and numbers are what they are. They have a problem and the problem is them. It is really sad. From: Buck To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 1:28 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up  kicking people out has ended? No that is hopeful wishing and they would like you to believe that. The guidelines have changed some little. However the course office is still very actively hunting people down and the Dome application is still about file work as case work and quite invasive. So it is. Even that last push in December around our push to have numbers meditating for those end-of-times dates they were actively both kicking people out of the Domes and denying applications. It is not very hopeful. They have not changed much this way even though the personnel has shifted around a little. However, that little video still catches the tone of it all. [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiKZjq0vTWg ] The guidelines have a lot of base fear in them that still gets put in to everything related to the Domes and the movement. It is their culture, God the Unified Field help 'em and all of us. -Buck --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Obba, I will not be David Hawthorne's beard (-: The 3 examples I cited are the three examples I see with my very own eyes. Meaning I see these women friends in the Dome. And I see and or know of them in relation to these other activities. It is so! Perhaps Buck can help with regards to David Hawthorne? To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 10:24 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up  Oh goody! Does this mean people who wrote books on Jyotish can go back into the domes? I remember one of the names, Dave Hawthrone? (spelling?) He has a book about using the most effective point as taught by a Dr. in India. When I hear he is welcomed back into the domes, I will believe in the below words. Tell me it is so!!! --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Hi Susan, I think this shaming and kicking people out has ended. Friends currently in the Dome: a recert gov who recently attended several John Newton and Paul Wong events; an active counselor who's been on IAA from the beginning; a gov who teaches her own healing process. I'll add that the recert gov friend socializes with individuals who are leaders either at MUM or in DLF. From: Susan To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 6:28 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up snip  For me, the issue with TM has always been the shame they place on people getting help that they need - whether meds or therapy. I think that attitude has done real harm to many, who ignore their illnesses and needs out of fear that they will be labelled and banned from the Domes and courses.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson wrote: Now hold on here - in my case you are talking to someone who has not been in Dome since 1987 - when I was there you had to either have a valid student, staff or faculty id card or have paid for Superradiance - I don't remember anything about applications - you have to apply to get in the Dome? And no fees? What kinds of info do they have on the Dome application? No, its not what is on the application. It's what is in the files that have actively been built on you. It can be pretty shocking to some people to learn what the course office people have gathered in to files and are gathering about people's private lives. It is not innocent or simple. It is rather aggressive. Evidently this is in the nature of their culture It must be an american culture, I've never heard of anything like this elsewere. I also must confess that meeting the administration of MUM was a big letdown, rarely have I met more inflexible and rigid-minded people anywhere in the Movement. And I know students from abroad that got so fed up with the MUM bureaucracy that they simple left within a month. Very sad. and seemingly is having a cultivated negative influence on every thing and every body around it. Hence the community and numbers are what they are. They have a problem and the problem is them. It is really sad.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
I was mostly exposed to Buddhist practices, and some Hindu and Taoist, before I learned TM. Also served in the Christian Church. Tried several types of meditation before learning TM, Buddhist mantra repetition, Christian contemplation, and Hindu chanting. When I learned TM, the experience was simply different, and mechanically effective, in spite of my skeptical and overwhelmed mind, so I stuck with it. It is the only technique that reliably got me out of my own way. No dogma - just the way I like it. Take it easy, take it as it comes - even when it don't come easy, and, When you are going through hell, keep on going. - in thee nutshell.:-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: They do it with TM, because TM is the only technique that operates without conscious intervention. The other stuff you are talking about may make you feel all cozy and spiritual, but it doesn't do jack wrt to long term changes. And you know this HOW? Oh yeah...that's what you were *told* by the person who *sold* you the only form of meditation you have ever practiced. :-) I just can't wait for other dweebs such as yourself who have never practiced ANY form of meditation other than TM to chime in on this thread and tell us how superior TM is to these other techniques *they have never tried, and never experienced*. :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wrote: My opinion is that they developed the buddy system and all the other precautions because there had been a few really sad and serious situations where people did become unstable or have breakdowns while on various course, or even died. That is correct. Even though there were freakouts back on the India courses (one guy lost it and ran through the jungles screaming for several hours before they could catch him), the concern on the part of the TMO started, as I understand it, back in Estes Park, where people were having all sorts of mental and physical issues related to the long meds (no asanas then), so Maharishi tried rounding. When that didn't stop the negative effects of the longer periods of meditation, he started to talk about unstress- ing as related to this phenomenon, and claim that it was because Westerners carried more stress in their systems than people in India he had been more used to, and that it was a Good Thing, because, after all, stress was being released. And everybody just bought this, just as they had everything else he had said. The addition of asanas to program on courses didn't do anything to stop these negative side effects, however, as anyone who was on the Fiuggi course should remember. The first 2-3 rows at that course were reserved for heavy unstressers, and it was a real zoo. It looked like a convention of people suffering from epilepsy, Tourettes Syndrome, or both. Arms jerking and flying around, people grunting and yelling and moaning -- and all of this *in activity*, sitting in a lecture hall, not during program. In fact, most of these people were told to *stop* rounding and meditate normally, and *the symptoms did not go away*. For some of them these tics and jerks and uncontrollable spasms lasted for months. (Please note that all of this was the result of plain, vanilla TM, *long* before the Sidhis and *their* brand of grunting and twitching appeared upon the scene.) My guess is that most of these people were unstable before coming to the course. I suspect this happens in all spiritual groups and churches, too. What I'm trying to tell you is that -- based on my exper- ience and that of thousands of others who have attended in-residence long meditation courses in other techniques, NO SUCH PHENOMENA ARE PRESENT. No one ever had to make up rules or guidelines to deal with such extreme side effects, because they NEVER APPEARED. Personally, I believe that the basic laziness of the basic TM technique is at fault. The techniques of meditation at these other courses involved more focus. *Not*, as TMers were often told, concentrating on the mantra or other point of meditational focus, just being aware enough not to sit there for long periods time -- or for the whole meditation session -- lost in thoughts and daydreams. MMY thought this was OK, but most other traditions -- those based on *real* traditions as opposed to having been made up, like TM -- say that the lazy, effortless approach characterized by TM is debilitating, because long-term, this practice causes people to get stuck in the astral and become spaced out and reclusive and incapable of being grounded in activity. That's certainly what I saw on TM courses,
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@... wrote: I was mostly exposed to Buddhist practices, and some Hindu and Taoist, before I learned TM. Also served in the Christian Church. Tried several types of meditation before learning TM, Buddhist mantra repetition, Christian contemplation, and Hindu chanting. When I learned TM, the experience was simply different, and mechanically effective, in spite of my skeptical and overwhelmed mind, so I stuck with it. It is the only technique that reliably got me out of my own way. No dogma - just the way I like it. Take it easy, take it as it comes - even when it don't come easy, and, When you are going through hell, keep on going. - in thee nutshell.:-) Oh, snap! Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Barry. Nice story, thanks Doc. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: They do it with TM, because TM is the only technique that operates without conscious intervention. The other stuff you are talking about may make you feel all cozy and spiritual, but it doesn't do jack wrt to long term changes. And you know this HOW? Oh yeah...that's what you were *told* by the person who *sold* you the only form of meditation you have ever practiced. :-) I just can't wait for other dweebs such as yourself who have never practiced ANY form of meditation other than TM to chime in on this thread and tell us how superior TM is to these other techniques *they have never tried, and never experienced*. :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wrote: My opinion is that they developed the buddy system and all the other precautions because there had been a few really sad and serious situations where people did become unstable or have breakdowns while on various course, or even died. That is correct. Even though there were freakouts back on the India courses (one guy lost it and ran through the jungles screaming for several hours before they could catch him), the concern on the part of the TMO started, as I understand it, back in Estes Park, where people were having all sorts of mental and physical issues related to the long meds (no asanas then), so Maharishi tried rounding. When that didn't stop the negative effects of the longer periods of meditation, he started to talk about unstress- ing as related to this phenomenon, and claim that it was because Westerners carried more stress in their systems than people in India he had been more used to, and that it was a Good Thing, because, after all, stress was being released. And everybody just bought this, just as they had everything else he had said. The addition of asanas to program on courses didn't do anything to stop these negative side effects, however, as anyone who was on the Fiuggi course should remember. The first 2-3 rows at that course were reserved for heavy unstressers, and it was a real zoo. It looked like a convention of people suffering from epilepsy, Tourettes Syndrome, or both. Arms jerking and flying around, people grunting and yelling and moaning -- and all of this *in activity*, sitting in a lecture hall, not during program. In fact, most of these people were told to *stop* rounding and meditate normally, and *the symptoms did not go away*. For some of them these tics and jerks and uncontrollable spasms lasted for months. (Please note that all of this was the result of plain, vanilla TM, *long* before the Sidhis and *their* brand of grunting and twitching appeared upon the scene.) My guess is that most of these people were unstable before coming to the course. I suspect this happens in all spiritual groups and churches, too. What I'm trying to tell you is that -- based on my exper- ience and that of thousands of others who have attended in-residence long meditation courses in other techniques, NO SUCH PHENOMENA ARE PRESENT. No one ever had to make up rules or guidelines to deal with such extreme side effects, because they NEVER APPEARED. Personally, I believe that the basic laziness of the basic TM technique is at fault. The techniques of meditation at these other courses involved more focus. *Not*, as TMers were often told, concentrating on the mantra or other point of meditational focus, just being aware enough not to sit there for long periods time -- or for the whole meditation session -- lost in thoughts and daydreams. MMY thought this was OK, but most other traditions -- those based on *real* traditions as opposed to having been made up, like TM -- say that the lazy, effortless approach
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wrote: My opinion is that they developed the buddy system and all the other precautions because there had been a few really sad and serious situations where people did become unstable or have breakdowns while on various course, or even died. That is correct. Even though there were freakouts back on the India courses (one guy lost it and ran through the jungles screaming for several hours before they could catch him), the concern on the part of the TMO started, as I understand it, back in Estes Park, where people were having all sorts of mental and physical issues related to the long meds (no asanas then), so Maharishi tried rounding. When that didn't stop the negative effects of the longer periods of meditation, he started to talk about unstress- ing as related to this phenomenon, and claim that it was because Westerners carried more stress in their systems than people in India he had been more used to, and that it was a Good Thing, because, after all, stress was being released. And everybody just bought this, just as they had everything else he had said. The addition of asanas to program on courses didn't do anything to stop these negative side effects, however, as anyone who was on the Fiuggi course should remember. The first 2-3 rows at that course were reserved for heavy unstressers, and it was a real zoo. It looked like a convention of people suffering from epilepsy, Tourettes Syndrome, or both. Arms jerking and flying around, people grunting and yelling and moaning -- and all of this *in activity*, sitting in a lecture hall, not during program. In fact, most of these people were told to *stop* rounding and meditate normally, and *the symptoms did not go away*. For some of them these tics and jerks and uncontrollable spasms lasted for months. (Please note that all of this was the result of plain, vanilla TM, *long* before the Sidhis and *their* brand of grunting and twitching appeared upon the scene.) My guess is that most of these people were unstable before coming to the course. I suspect this happens in all spiritual groups and churches, too. What I'm trying to tell you is that -- based on my exper- ience and that of thousands of others who have attended in-residence long meditation courses in other techniques, NO SUCH PHENOMENA ARE PRESENT. No one ever had to make up rules or guidelines to deal with such extreme side effects, because they NEVER APPEARED. Personally, I believe that the basic laziness of the basic TM technique is at fault. The techniques of meditation at these other courses involved more focus. *Not*, as TMers were often told, concentrating on the mantra or other point of meditational focus, just being aware enough not to sit there for long periods time -- or for the whole meditation session -- lost in thoughts and daydreams. MMY thought this was OK, but most other traditions -- those based on *real* traditions as opposed to having been made up, like TM -- say that the lazy, effortless approach characterized by TM is debilitating, because long-term, this practice causes people to get stuck in the astral and become spaced out and reclusive and incapable of being grounded in activity. That's certainly what I saw on TM courses, but *never* on courses from these other traditions whose courses I attended. People who need a place to belong or to rest their weary and confused bones land in churches and Buddhist groups, etc. Not to argue, but I think such people would be more drawn to churches than most Buddhist groups I'm aware of, because in the latter one is expected to WORK, on a daily basis, at resolving one's own problems. There is never that sense that someone or something is going to do it for you that we see in churches and in New Age groups. For the TMO, to try and keep an eye on people somehow, people were paired into buddies so that a report would come if someone seemed odd. At which point, as I suggested earlier, NO ONE IN CHARGE OF THE COURSE WOULD KNOW WHAT TO DO. They had never been *trained* in what to do. In my considered opinion, the main reason for the Don't leave the course and the buddy rules was to keep spaced- out people from wandering around in the towns the courses were held in and thus giving TM and the TMO a bad name. That happened enough times in the early days that they were wary of it. But in retrospect I really believe that all of these side effects of longer periods of meditation were the result of the TM technique. I say this based on my *own exper- ience*, both with TM and with a number of other techniques, and both on TM
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
Hi, I might add that growing up in the East, I wasn't impressed or alienated by any of the religions I experienced - Got so used to the Imam singing the worshipers to prayer in Djakarta that it became part of the background. So there was no reason to keep with TM, unless it worked. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I was mostly exposed to Buddhist practices, and some Hindu and Taoist, before I learned TM. Also served in the Christian Church. Tried several types of meditation before learning TM, Buddhist mantra repetition, Christian contemplation, and Hindu chanting. When I learned TM, the experience was simply different, and mechanically effective, in spite of my skeptical and overwhelmed mind, so I stuck with it. It is the only technique that reliably got me out of my own way. No dogma - just the way I like it. Take it easy, take it as it comes - even when it don't come easy, and, When you are going through hell, keep on going. - in thee nutshell.:-) Oh, snap! Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Barry. Nice story, thanks Doc. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: They do it with TM, because TM is the only technique that operates without conscious intervention. The other stuff you are talking about may make you feel all cozy and spiritual, but it doesn't do jack wrt to long term changes. And you know this HOW? Oh yeah...that's what you were *told* by the person who *sold* you the only form of meditation you have ever practiced. :-) I just can't wait for other dweebs such as yourself who have never practiced ANY form of meditation other than TM to chime in on this thread and tell us how superior TM is to these other techniques *they have never tried, and never experienced*. :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wrote: My opinion is that they developed the buddy system and all the other precautions because there had been a few really sad and serious situations where people did become unstable or have breakdowns while on various course, or even died. That is correct. Even though there were freakouts back on the India courses (one guy lost it and ran through the jungles screaming for several hours before they could catch him), the concern on the part of the TMO started, as I understand it, back in Estes Park, where people were having all sorts of mental and physical issues related to the long meds (no asanas then), so Maharishi tried rounding. When that didn't stop the negative effects of the longer periods of meditation, he started to talk about unstress- ing as related to this phenomenon, and claim that it was because Westerners carried more stress in their systems than people in India he had been more used to, and that it was a Good Thing, because, after all, stress was being released. And everybody just bought this, just as they had everything else he had said. The addition of asanas to program on courses didn't do anything to stop these negative side effects, however, as anyone who was on the Fiuggi course should remember. The first 2-3 rows at that course were reserved for heavy unstressers, and it was a real zoo. It looked like a convention of people suffering from epilepsy, Tourettes Syndrome, or both. Arms jerking and flying around, people grunting and yelling and moaning -- and all of this *in activity*, sitting in a lecture hall, not during program. In fact, most of these people were told to *stop* rounding and meditate normally, and *the symptoms did not go away*. For some of them these tics and jerks and uncontrollable spasms lasted for months. (Please note that all of this was the result of plain, vanilla TM, *long* before the Sidhis and *their* brand of grunting and twitching appeared upon the scene.) My guess is that most of these people were unstable before coming to the course. I suspect this happens in all spiritual groups and churches, too. What I'm trying to tell you is that -- based on my exper- ience and that of thousands of others who have attended in-residence long meditation courses in other techniques, NO SUCH PHENOMENA ARE PRESENT. No one ever had to make up rules or guidelines to deal with such extreme side effects, because they NEVER APPEARED. Personally, I believe that the basic laziness of the basic TM technique is at fault. The techniques of meditation at these other courses involved more focus.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
Oddly enough, my mom picked up a lot of art and furniture in Indonesia, so for most of the time I grew up, a Balinese painting of *a Puja performance*, complete with incense and fruit, has been hanging above the dining room table - itself a masterpiece, the top consisting of a circular, six foot cross section of Banyan Tree wood. I so love the sensuality of the tropics. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@... wrote: Hi, I might add that growing up in the East, I wasn't impressed or alienated by any of the religions I experienced - Got so used to the Imam singing the worshipers to prayer in Djakarta that it became part of the background. So there was no reason to keep with TM, unless it worked. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I was mostly exposed to Buddhist practices, and some Hindu and Taoist, before I learned TM. Also served in the Christian Church. Tried several types of meditation before learning TM, Buddhist mantra repetition, Christian contemplation, and Hindu chanting. When I learned TM, the experience was simply different, and mechanically effective, in spite of my skeptical and overwhelmed mind, so I stuck with it. It is the only technique that reliably got me out of my own way. No dogma - just the way I like it. Take it easy, take it as it comes - even when it don't come easy, and, When you are going through hell, keep on going. - in thee nutshell.:-) Oh, snap! Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Barry. Nice story, thanks Doc. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: They do it with TM, because TM is the only technique that operates without conscious intervention. The other stuff you are talking about may make you feel all cozy and spiritual, but it doesn't do jack wrt to long term changes. And you know this HOW? Oh yeah...that's what you were *told* by the person who *sold* you the only form of meditation you have ever practiced. :-) I just can't wait for other dweebs such as yourself who have never practiced ANY form of meditation other than TM to chime in on this thread and tell us how superior TM is to these other techniques *they have never tried, and never experienced*. :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wrote: My opinion is that they developed the buddy system and all the other precautions because there had been a few really sad and serious situations where people did become unstable or have breakdowns while on various course, or even died. That is correct. Even though there were freakouts back on the India courses (one guy lost it and ran through the jungles screaming for several hours before they could catch him), the concern on the part of the TMO started, as I understand it, back in Estes Park, where people were having all sorts of mental and physical issues related to the long meds (no asanas then), so Maharishi tried rounding. When that didn't stop the negative effects of the longer periods of meditation, he started to talk about unstress- ing as related to this phenomenon, and claim that it was because Westerners carried more stress in their systems than people in India he had been more used to, and that it was a Good Thing, because, after all, stress was being released. And everybody just bought this, just as they had everything else he had said. The addition of asanas to program on courses didn't do anything to stop these negative side effects, however, as anyone who was on the Fiuggi course should remember. The first 2-3 rows at that course were reserved for heavy unstressers, and it was a real zoo. It looked like a convention of people suffering from epilepsy, Tourettes Syndrome, or both. Arms jerking and flying around, people grunting and yelling and moaning -- and all of this *in activity*, sitting in a lecture hall, not during program. In fact, most of these people were told to *stop* rounding and meditate normally, and *the symptoms did not go away*. For some of them these tics and jerks and uncontrollable spasms lasted for months. (Please note that all of this was the result of plain, vanilla TM, *long* before the Sidhis and *their* brand of grunting and twitching appeared upon the scene.) My guess is that most of these people were unstable before coming to the course. I suspect this happens in all spiritual groups and churches, too.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
...and my parents were absolutely *shocked* when I began TM. I guess I should've said, ...but the instruction manual has been accompanying my every meal, since I was six..., to say nothing of the statues of Saraswati, Krishna, and Kwan Yin, in the living room...:-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@... wrote: Oddly enough, my mom picked up a lot of art and furniture in Indonesia, so for most of the time I grew up, a Balinese painting of *a Puja performance*, complete with incense and fruit, has been hanging above the dining room table - itself a masterpiece, the top consisting of a circular, six foot cross section of Banyan Tree wood. I so love the sensuality of the tropics. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: Hi, I might add that growing up in the East, I wasn't impressed or alienated by any of the religions I experienced - Got so used to the Imam singing the worshipers to prayer in Djakarta that it became part of the background. So there was no reason to keep with TM, unless it worked. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I was mostly exposed to Buddhist practices, and some Hindu and Taoist, before I learned TM. Also served in the Christian Church. Tried several types of meditation before learning TM, Buddhist mantra repetition, Christian contemplation, and Hindu chanting. When I learned TM, the experience was simply different, and mechanically effective, in spite of my skeptical and overwhelmed mind, so I stuck with it. It is the only technique that reliably got me out of my own way. No dogma - just the way I like it. Take it easy, take it as it comes - even when it don't come easy, and, When you are going through hell, keep on going. - in thee nutshell.:-) Oh, snap! Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Barry. Nice story, thanks Doc. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: They do it with TM, because TM is the only technique that operates without conscious intervention. The other stuff you are talking about may make you feel all cozy and spiritual, but it doesn't do jack wrt to long term changes. And you know this HOW? Oh yeah...that's what you were *told* by the person who *sold* you the only form of meditation you have ever practiced. :-) I just can't wait for other dweebs such as yourself who have never practiced ANY form of meditation other than TM to chime in on this thread and tell us how superior TM is to these other techniques *they have never tried, and never experienced*. :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wrote: My opinion is that they developed the buddy system and all the other precautions because there had been a few really sad and serious situations where people did become unstable or have breakdowns while on various course, or even died. That is correct. Even though there were freakouts back on the India courses (one guy lost it and ran through the jungles screaming for several hours before they could catch him), the concern on the part of the TMO started, as I understand it, back in Estes Park, where people were having all sorts of mental and physical issues related to the long meds (no asanas then), so Maharishi tried rounding. When that didn't stop the negative effects of the longer periods of meditation, he started to talk about unstress- ing as related to this phenomenon, and claim that it was because Westerners carried more stress in their systems than people in India he had been more used to, and that it was a Good Thing, because, after all, stress was being released. And everybody just bought this, just as they had everything else he had said. The addition of asanas to program on courses didn't do anything to stop these negative side effects, however, as anyone who was on the Fiuggi course should remember. The first 2-3 rows at that course were reserved for heavy unstressers, and it was a real zoo. It looked like a convention of people suffering from epilepsy, Tourettes Syndrome, or both. Arms jerking and flying around, people grunting and yelling and moaning -- and all of this *in activity*, sitting in a lecture hall, not during program. In fact, most of these people were told to *stop* rounding and meditate normally, and *the symptoms did not go away*. For some of them
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
From: turquoiseb no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: (snip) The addition of asanas to program on courses didn't do anything to stop these negative side effects, however, as anyone who was on the Fiuggi course should remember. The first 2-3 rows at that course were reserved for heavy unstressers, and it was a real zoo. It looked like a convention of people suffering from epilepsy, Tourettes Syndrome, or both. Arms jerking and flying around, people grunting and yelling and moaning -- and all of this *in activity*, sitting in a lecture hall, not during program. In fact, most of these people were told to *stop* rounding and meditate normally, and *the symptoms did not go away*. For some of them these tics and jerks and uncontrollable spasms lasted for months. (Please note that all of this was the result of plain, vanilla TM, *long* before the Sidhis and *their* brand of grunting and twitching appeared upon the scene.) (snip) Personally, I believe that the basic laziness of the basic TM technique is at fault. The techniques of meditation at these other courses involved more focus. *Not*, as TMers were often told, concentrating on the mantra or other point of meditational focus, just being aware enough not to sit there for long periods time -- or for the whole meditation session -- lost in thoughts and daydreams. MMY thought this was OK, but most other traditions -- those based on *real* traditions as opposed to having been made up, like TM -- say that the lazy, effortless approach characterized by TM is debilitating, because long-term, this practice causes people to get stuck in the astral and become spaced out and reclusive and incapable of being grounded in activity. That's certainly what I saw on TM courses, but *never* on courses from these other traditions whose courses I attended. ***BP: Do you mean if I concentrated more I'd stop taking the Lords name in vain and saying WTF so much, thank God you cleared that the fuck up; in Calla Millor and Fiuggi, God (I mean Maharishi) put me in the back row to help me deal with my feelings of terminal uniqueness; which, in Fiuggi, in that God damn big event center, pretty much put me in the next county, which I think was God's plan in the first place; BTW, I thought all that arm waving at the front of the auditorium in Fiuggi was just the other acid heads letting me know they had arrived for the lecture (smiley face).
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: It simply wouldn't have been a big blip on my radar screen. Just more silly TMO blah-blah-blah, tune it out. Vedaland was a ridiculous notion to start with even when Henning was still in full cry. What, Judy the great champion of truth and persecutor of the dishonest wouldn't have made as much as a squeak if someone from her so-called spiritual group tried to relieve her of her life savings? Not when she was on a rounding course, no (not least because she didn't have any life savings to be relieved of, as I've already noted). Hah! I find that rather hard to believe. But then I was there and saw it. Besides, it wasn't about whether the blah-blah was going to happen, it's about dishonest fundraising. Right. My point was that I would have paid too little attention to the blah-blah-blah even to notice that it was dishonest. Not a very convincing sidestep, I shall put you in with Nabby and Dumbass as not understanding your motives. And I shall put you down as pretty dumb, salyavin. If you read the rest of what I wrote, you'd know the motives you're imagining simply don't apply in my case. And my goodness, if you can't tell the difference between what motivates Nabby and what motivates DrD, you're quite remarkably unperceptive. You're like Barry: your imagination doesn't stretch any further than your preconceptions.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: It simply wouldn't have been a big blip on my radar screen. Just more silly TMO blah-blah-blah, tune it out. Vedaland was a ridiculous notion to start with even when Henning was still in full cry. What, Judy the great champion of truth and persecutor of the dishonest wouldn't have made as much as a squeak if someone from her so-called spiritual group tried to relieve her of her life savings? Not when she was on a rounding course, no (not least because she didn't have any life savings to be relieved of, as I've already noted). Hah! I find that rather hard to believe. But then I was there and saw it. Besides, it wasn't about whether the blah-blah was going to happen, it's about dishonest fundraising. Right. My point was that I would have paid too little attention to the blah-blah-blah even to notice that it was dishonest. Not a very convincing sidestep, I shall put you in with Nabby and Dumbass as not understanding your motives. It's a matter of energy conservation and priorities, Sal. Judy's sense of moral outrage is limited to truly important social issues, like being called a cunt after decades of acting like one. :-) Oh, what fun. Barry fouls himself up *again*. Judy to salyavin (#333759): Your experience does sound to me like an extremely unfortunate aberration, at least based on my own experience of rounding courses. And even if the pitch hadn't been made on a rounding course, if they really did know the Vedaland project was down the toilet, it would have been grossly dishonest.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: It simply wouldn't have been a big blip on my radar screen. Just more silly TMO blah-blah-blah, tune it out. Vedaland was a ridiculous notion to start with even when Henning was still in full cry. What, Judy the great champion of truth and persecutor of the dishonest wouldn't have made as much as a squeak if someone from her so-called spiritual group tried to relieve her of her life savings? Not when she was on a rounding course, no (not least because she didn't have any life savings to be relieved of, as I've already noted). Hah! I find that rather hard to believe. But then I was there and saw it. Besides, it wasn't about whether the blah-blah was going to happen, it's about dishonest fundraising. Right. My point was that I would have paid too little attention to the blah-blah-blah even to notice that it was dishonest. Not a very convincing sidestep, I shall put you in with Nabby and Dumbass as not understanding your motives. And I shall put you down as pretty dumb, salyavin. If you read the rest of what I wrote, you'd know the motives you're imagining simply don't apply in my case. And my goodness, if you can't tell the difference between what motivates Nabby and what motivates DrD, you're quite remarkably unperceptive. hmmm, you assume I think you all have the same motives when all I said was you are unaware of them. You're like Barry: your imagination doesn't stretch any further than your preconceptions. True, but I have boundlessly amazing preconceptions.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: It simply wouldn't have been a big blip on my radar screen. Just more silly TMO blah-blah-blah, tune it out. Vedaland was a ridiculous notion to start with even when Henning was still in full cry. What, Judy the great champion of truth and persecutor of the dishonest wouldn't have made as much as a squeak if someone from her so-called spiritual group tried to relieve her of her life savings? Not when she was on a rounding course, no (not least because she didn't have any life savings to be relieved of, as I've already noted). Hah! I find that rather hard to believe. But then I was there and saw it. Besides, it wasn't about whether the blah-blah was going to happen, it's about dishonest fundraising. Right. My point was that I would have paid too little attention to the blah-blah-blah even to notice that it was dishonest. Not a very convincing sidestep, I shall put you in with Nabby and Dumbass as not understanding your motives. And I shall put you down as pretty dumb, salyavin. If you read the rest of what I wrote, you'd know the motives you're imagining simply don't apply in my case. And my goodness, if you can't tell the difference between what motivates Nabby and what motivates DrD, you're quite remarkably unperceptive. hmmm, you assume I think you all have the same motives when all I said was you are unaware of them. You're wrong about me and DrD. You're like Barry: your imagination doesn't stretch any further than your preconceptions. True, but I have boundlessly amazing preconceptions. Not so boundless or amazing as you think. Your imagination doesn't stretch any further than your preconception about your preconceptions either. We've all got preconceptions. The question is whether one can put the tendency to avoid cognitive dissonance on hold long enough to look beyond them.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
I shall put you in with Nabby and Dumbass as not understanding your motives. Sal, I'll make my motive E-Zee P-Zee for you, regarding rehashing these historical events: 10 years = 3,650 days = 87,600 hours. 20 years = 7,300 days = 175,200 hours. 30 years = 10,950 days = 262,800 hours. I have had plenty of time to think about, and fully resolve, any questions, issues, experiences, and memories of my TM days. How much more time do you and Mike and Barry, etc. need I'm starting to feel embarrassed for you guys.:-( --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: It simply wouldn't have been a big blip on my radar screen. Just more silly TMO blah-blah-blah, tune it out. Vedaland was a ridiculous notion to start with even when Henning was still in full cry. What, Judy the great champion of truth and persecutor of the dishonest wouldn't have made as much as a squeak if someone from her so-called spiritual group tried to relieve her of her life savings? Not when she was on a rounding course, no (not least because she didn't have any life savings to be relieved of, as I've already noted). Hah! I find that rather hard to believe. But then I was there and saw it. Besides, it wasn't about whether the blah-blah was going to happen, it's about dishonest fundraising. Right. My point was that I would have paid too little attention to the blah-blah-blah even to notice that it was dishonest. Not a very convincing sidestep, I shall put you in with Nabby and Dumbass as not understanding your motives.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@... wrote: I shall put you in with Nabby and Dumbass as not understanding your motives. Sal, I'll make my motive E-Zee P-Zee for you, regarding rehashing these historical events: 10 years = 3,650 days = 87,600 hours. 20 years = 7,300 days = 175,200 hours. 30 years = 10,950 days = 262,800 hours. I have had plenty of time to think about, and fully resolve, any questions, issues, experiences, and memories of my TM days. How much more time do you and Mike and Barry, etc. need I'm starting to feel embarrassed for you guys.:-( It's actually surreal to me that you don't get the point about motives. The conversation isn't about getting over things it's about what happened (that MJ didn't know about) and why other people who witnessed it didn't react in a normal way. We are talking about about cultish methods of issue avoidance like Nabby's I never saw anything like it so you must be lying or Judy's I wouldn't be annoyed that someone tried to rip me off $50,000 for something that couldn't happen because I don't have $50,000. There is something other than you having got over the TMO going on here. I suspect a fear of rocking the boat or not questioning the master plays a big part. Somebody trying to rip me off doesn't become a good thing over time, I don't forget who my friends are and crooks I don't count among them. The idea that you resolve things and then you cease to have an opinion on them sounds rather artificial to me.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
Who said I don't have an opinion on these things? WTF? I'm just done, after one, two or three decades, rehashing this stuff. It happened. Lots of bad shit happens in the world, every day. Much worse than the self-centered crap you keep wallowing in. If you want to get upset, get upset over all the random death for resources that continues globally, the pedophile epidemic, all the animals that get discarded as pets and killed - This being Kali Yuga, there is a lot of stuff going on NOW to be concerned about. Going over some bad experiences you had at the hands of unethical and stupid people so many years ago, and having me put my opinions in, is way, way, way, way down there on my list of CURRENT priorities. Got it? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I shall put you in with Nabby and Dumbass as not understanding your motives. Sal, I'll make my motive E-Zee P-Zee for you, regarding rehashing these historical events: 10 years = 3,650 days = 87,600 hours. 20 years = 7,300 days = 175,200 hours. 30 years = 10,950 days = 262,800 hours. I have had plenty of time to think about, and fully resolve, any questions, issues, experiences, and memories of my TM days. How much more time do you and Mike and Barry, etc. need I'm starting to feel embarrassed for you guys.:-( It's actually surreal to me that you don't get the point about motives. The conversation isn't about getting over things it's about what happened (that MJ didn't know about) and why other people who witnessed it didn't react in a normal way. We are talking about about cultish methods of issue avoidance like Nabby's I never saw anything like it so you must be lying or Judy's I wouldn't be annoyed that someone tried to rip me off $50,000 for something that couldn't happen because I don't have $50,000. There is something other than you having got over the TMO going on here. I suspect a fear of rocking the boat or not questioning the master plays a big part. Somebody trying to rip me off doesn't become a good thing over time, I don't forget who my friends are and crooks I don't count among them. The idea that you resolve things and then you cease to have an opinion on them sounds rather artificial to me.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
In my case when I left MIU in 1987, I had no real desire to be removed from the Movement, intended to go on rounding courses and yet had just before leaving MIU, about 3 months before, I had been introduced other kinds of spiritual practices, reiki and healing stuff so when I came back to South Carolina I started meeting people who were into other stuff than TM and I was interested, so dabbled around with it. Quite by accident or perhaps by Cosmic Design, I became aware of some things that disturbed me a fair amount with the behavior of Bevan and other members of the TMO who were creating some shenanigans in Heavenly Mountain - it was really the Boone, NC stuff that made me decide not to have anything to do with the TMO except maybe round sometime, and then in 1996 a woman I was friends with who also became a certified meditation teacher with Deepak Chopra thru his CHopra center in La Jolla, and I learned another mantra meditation The experiences I had made me feel Hey! Marshy might have got it wrong - TM ain't necessarily the best meditation out there! So my attention was just not on TM at all for a number of years except every now and again when I would talk to one of my friends who was a TB'er and they would tell me the latest spate of rumors about how many people were hovering and how close we wuz to world peace, and the occasional news article on M's increasingly bizarre behavior like the scorpion nation absurdity. It was really only after I reconnected with someone who said their health had been put at grave risk through some unethical behavior on the part of an ayurvedic practitioner at MIU that I began to remember me discomfort with and questions about the Movement that I had never really dealt with - so the process for me dealing with such things began at the time I became a member here on FFL and I came here looking for information and to see if others had had such concerns as I had myself - so for me it has been maybe a year? Or a little less - and a lot of the stuff I have learned from Curtis, Barry, Sal, Rick, watching the David Wants to Fly film and Rick's Batgap interview with Mark Landua brought up more stuff so I am still processing a bit. But you seem to feel that when one processes fully the questions, issues etc about TM and the TMO one then gets into a comfortable place where one just says everything is ok and one should never say that Georgina Wilson lied to my face or like someone posted here about Neil Patterson being an ass cause he wouldn't let the guy use Movement facilities cuz he had a beard. Just cuz we decide that the TMO is a rapacious organization and that Marshy was a fraud, sexual user and huckster doesn't mean we still have issues. If you are indeed enlightened, does it mean you are still processing something about people who call the Movement and Marshy what they were and are? From: doctordumb...@rocketmail.com doctordumb...@rocketmail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 10:46 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up I shall put you in with Nabby and Dumbass as not understanding your motives. Sal, I'll make my motive E-Zee P-Zee for you, regarding rehashing these historical events: 10 years = 3,650 days = 87,600 hours. 20 years = 7,300 days = 175,200 hours. 30 years = 10,950 days = 262,800 hours. I have had plenty of time to think about, and fully resolve, any questions, issues, experiences, and memories of my TM days. How much more time do you and Mike and Barry, etc. need I'm starting to feel embarrassed for you guys.:-( --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: It simply wouldn't have been a big blip on my radar screen. Just more silly TMO blah-blah-blah, tune it out. Vedaland was a ridiculous notion to start with even when Henning was still in full cry. What, Judy the great champion of truth and persecutor of the dishonest wouldn't have made as much as a squeak if someone from her so-called spiritual group tried to relieve her of her life savings? Not when she was on a rounding course, no (not least because she didn't have any life savings to be relieved of, as I've already noted). Hah! I find that rather hard to believe. But then I was there and saw it. Besides, it wasn't about whether the blah-blah was going to happen, it's about dishonest fundraising. Right. My point was that I would have paid too little attention to the blah-blah-blah even to notice that it was dishonest. Not a very convincing sidestep, I shall put you in with Nabby and
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: (snip) We are talking about about cultish methods of issue avoidance like Nabby's I never saw anything like it so you must be lying or Judy's I wouldn't be annoyed that someone tried to rip me off $50,000 for something that couldn't happen because I don't have $50,000. O, that wasn't very smart of you, salyavin. Did you really think I wouldn't call you on this deliberate misrepresentation? As you know, I didn't cite my bank account as a reason for not reacting to the Vedaland pitch (had I been there). And if you attempt to dispute this, I'll quote your question and my actual response to it (you really should not put your own paraphrases in quote marks, by the way--that's dodgy in and of itself). The reason I gave for why I wouldn't have reacted was (as you know): It simply wouldn't have been a big blip on my radar screen. Just more silly TMO blah-blah-blah, tune it out. Vedaland was a ridiculous notion to start with even when Henning was still in full cryI would have paid too little attention to the blah-blah-blah even to notice that it was dishonest. I mean, I can understand why you wouldn't *want* to quote this as a cultish method of issue avoidance. It would make you look *really* dumb. But what you quoted instead demonstrates your own dishonesty. You are learning well from Barry. Now you need to learn what he never has: You can't get away with pulling that kind of misrepresentation here, and it has a very negative effect on your credibility. If you're willing to be dishonest about something that's so easily proven false, you're likely to be even more willing to be dishonest about something that's more difficult to document.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
I'm just going to riff off of one small aspect of your post, because it triggered a train of thought that I found inter- esting and wanted to rap about. No disrespect to the rest of your excellent post, really. :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson wrote: Quite by accident or perhaps by Cosmic Design, I became aware of some things that disturbed me a fair amount with the behavior of Bevan and other members of the TMO who were creating some shenanigans in Heavenly Mountain - it was really the Boone, NC stuff that made me decide not to have anything to do with the TMO except maybe round sometime... Have you ever noticed that one of the never-noticed and never-spoken-of assumptions that many people make, *including* those who have stepped back from involve- ment in the TMO, is that being able to round is somehow inevitably linked to being in good enough standing with the TMO that you will still be allowed to go on one of their courses? The assumption is that on a course officially offered by the TMO is the only place they *could* round, or at least safely round. Did it never occur to them to just go to a nice place, rent a room with a great view, and just do some extra rounds on their own? Did it never occur to them to go on some other organization's retreat and just do their TM and/or TMSP program there? I suspect, now that this has been brought to my attention, that a LOT of people picked up this subliminal idea that one cannot or should not round except on a TM course. And why? Is it somehow safer to round as we were instructed on an official course? Do you believe that the people who led them had any ability to keep you safe, that they were taught things specific to rounding to watch for in course participants and how to help them out of the difficulties if they found themselves in one? I ran all of the TM residence courses offered in the Western US States for several years. In that capacity I was pretty much in charge of residence course teacher training, in that I made sure that everyone who taught these weekend or week-long course followed certain guidelines sent down to us from International. In the Regional Offices we tried our best to select good teachers, people with a good rep as teachers, but also as having a good head on their shoulders and being pretty real-world grounded. But I can assure you that none of them ever received any training on how to take care of anything woeful that might happen to a course participant during rounding. It was as if the whole residence course idea was based on the assumption that this could never *happen*. What could possibly go wrong, after all, on a TM residence course that is by definition 100% life supporting? This may have changed after I left the TM movement, and as more people freaked out on courses. I can only speak for the period up to 1972, and based on my own limited experience within the TMO. If anyone who ever taught residence courses has different memories, please speak up. Anyway, these were just thoughts triggered by something Michael said, thrown out to see if anyone identifies with them, or has anything to say about them.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
Thanks Bob. I love Marc Cohn. When I was turning 40, a friend, whose birthday was 5 days from mine set up a trip to Cancun with a couple of other friends of hers. One of those timeshare deals. My first trip to Mexico. She flew us first class - my first time on first class - what a great thing. We were assaulted with the program once we got there, but we did make it to chitzen itza and did some snorkeling and I loved the pool. The hotel grounds had a pervasive smell of septic, in that the system was failing, which ruined the beach - too much development on that spit to put it mildly. After a couple of nights of being herded around like cattle to the different clubs, where waitresses tried to force shots of very bad tequila down us, I ditched. I was carrying around a Spanish/English dictionary and hailed a cab to go the older part of town and found a jazz club run by an expat with live music - the best night I had. We all determined that Playa Del Carmen was where we would go next time, but that time never came, as is often the case. Nice place to be right now. As an aside, I saw the family counselor yesterday, who took one look at me in my Sun Valley wool hat, two scarves, and raincoat covered in dog hair, and informed me that it's a myth that motivation precedes action. I must get going (smiley face). From: Bob Price bobpri...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 3:24 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up Too bad about the link, it played just fine in Playa Del Carmen; how about these: OBBA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwR0n87v2BQ EMILY: http://tinyurl.com/ah6ye8j ONCE UPON A TIME: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvDJ5a6KZj4 From: Emily Reyn emilymae.r...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 9:41:52 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up I noted the same about the link, but know the song and thus moved to Bob's other link of the book. What a great book; a great offering with wonderful drawings. The pages turn for you, which is very cool. That is a pertinent link to what Curtis posted and I have saved it to peruse. From: obbajeeba no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 6:28 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up FFL, the endless battle of who did what, and how come I am not fucking enlightened yet. Hey Bob, the link you put at the end of your post below on this thread, it does not work if one lives in the States. I love Purple rain to go along with those purple high stretch stiletto boots, please share a link we can see from here, the States.. Emily would most likely appreciate it too! The mention in a post to the Turq, I do not live in Fairfield, and not in Manhattan (deduct my non response of 72nd and 4th)(nor the L train from Willamsburg) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhgjEObtrWE Oh,Give me a ticket on an Air-o-plane. you now have minus three areas I may or may not live,at certain times. :) I live in my skin, the blanket of FFL. You guys and ladies, are my warmth. :) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bob Price wrote: MILAREPA once sent three of his devotees, each with a blanket, into the mountains of Tibet with the instruction to not return until they had mastered their inner heat. The monks found an ice field, laid out their blankets, and began to mediate; windstorms and angry blizzards pummeled the three adherents and covered them with ice and snow, but the three continued to mediate without interruption. Finally, after ten years had passed, one of the monks opened his eyes and glared at the monk beside him and angrily shouted: You're sitting on my blanket! The angry monk then closed his eyes and the three continued to mediate. More wind, snow and ice storms hit the mountain and froze the monks solid, but still they continued their practice without interruption. After another ten years had passed the second monk opened his eyes and shouted: No I'm not! The second angry monk then closed his eyes again, and the three continued to mediate peacefully. More blizzards and wind storms hit the mountain and covered the three monks with freezing rain and snow; the howling wind was deafening, and at times the three mediating monks were encased in solid blocks of ice, but they remained immoveable and continued to mediate uninterrupted. Finally, after another ten years had passed (making it thirty years since they had arrived), the third monk suddenly jumped up, grabbed
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: This may have changed after I left the TM movement, and as more people freaked out on courses. I can only speak for the period up to 1972, and based on my own limited experience within the TMO. If anyone who ever taught residence courses has different memories, please speak up. My bad. My experiences along these line went through 1977, not 1972.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@... wrote: Who said I don't have an opinion on these things? WTF? I'm just done, after one, two or three decades, rehashing this stuff. It happened. Lots of bad shit happens in the world, every day. Much worse than the self-centered crap you keep wallowing in. If you want to get upset, get upset over all the random death for resources that continues globally, the pedophile epidemic, all the animals that get discarded as pets and killed - This being Kali Yuga, there is a lot of stuff going on NOW to be concerned about. Going over some bad experiences you had at the hands of unethical and stupid people so many years ago, and having me put my opinions in, is way, way, way, way down there on my list of CURRENT priorities. Got it? Really, wow. You mean the world didn't end in 1999? I'm shocked, maybe those things I read about in the news are actually happening. I had assumed it was all a video game. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I shall put you in with Nabby and Dumbass as not understanding your motives. Sal, I'll make my motive E-Zee P-Zee for you, regarding rehashing these historical events: 10 years = 3,650 days = 87,600 hours. 20 years = 7,300 days = 175,200 hours. 30 years = 10,950 days = 262,800 hours. I have had plenty of time to think about, and fully resolve, any questions, issues, experiences, and memories of my TM days. How much more time do you and Mike and Barry, etc. need I'm starting to feel embarrassed for you guys.:-( It's actually surreal to me that you don't get the point about motives. The conversation isn't about getting over things it's about what happened (that MJ didn't know about) and why other people who witnessed it didn't react in a normal way. We are talking about about cultish methods of issue avoidance like Nabby's I never saw anything like it so you must be lying or Judy's I wouldn't be annoyed that someone tried to rip me off $50,000 for something that couldn't happen because I don't have $50,000. There is something other than you having got over the TMO going on here. I suspect a fear of rocking the boat or not questioning the master plays a big part. Somebody trying to rip me off doesn't become a good thing over time, I don't forget who my friends are and crooks I don't count among them. The idea that you resolve things and then you cease to have an opinion on them sounds rather artificial to me.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: (snip) We are talking about about cultish methods of issue avoidance like Nabby's I never saw anything like it so you must be lying or Judy's I wouldn't be annoyed that someone tried to rip me off $50,000 for something that couldn't happen because I don't have $50,000. O, that wasn't very smart of you, salyavin. Did you really think I wouldn't call you on this deliberate misrepresentation? I think it's a great and eye catching paraphrase (if partial) Here's what you said: My guess is that I'd have ignored it, which is what I've done with almost all the sales pitches I've ever had from the TMO, during rounding or otherwise (only sales pitches I experienced during rounding were for advanced programs). Plus the fact that at no time when I was taking rounding courses would I have had $50,000 of which to be relieved! Misrepresentation? You are learning well from Barry. Yep, me Barry and Goebbels meet regularly for training sessions. Now you need to learn what he never has: You can't get away with pulling that kind of misrepresentation here, and it has a very negative effect on your credibility. If you're willing to be dishonest about something that's so easily proven false, you're likely to be even more willing to be dishonest about something that's more difficult to document. You see how you go on about what you see as dishonesty here? And you claim someone ripping you off for $50,000 wouldn't get your back up. I don't believe it.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: (snip) We are talking about about cultish methods of issue avoidance like Nabby's I never saw anything like it so you must be lying or Judy's I wouldn't be annoyed that someone tried to rip me off $50,000 for something that couldn't happen because I don't have $50,000. O, that wasn't very smart of you, salyavin. Did you really think I wouldn't call you on this deliberate misrepresentation? I think it's a great and eye catching paraphrase (if partial) And deliberately out of context. Here's what you said: My guess is that I'd have ignored it, which is what I've done with almost all the sales pitches I've ever had from the TMO, during rounding or otherwise (only sales pitches I experienced during rounding were for advanced programs). Plus the fact that at no time when I was taking rounding courses would I have had $50,000 of which to be relieved! Misrepresentation? Oh, yes indeedy. What you quote above was from an earlier post, first of all (as you know). Second, the first paragraph you quote is entirely consistent with what I went on to say in the later post, just less detailed; and the second paragraph, although factual, is pretty obviously meant to be mildly humorous and self-deprecatory. I was pointing out that this part of your original question made no sense in my case. Let's go to the videotape: - So what would you have done Judy? Seriously, put yourself in my place, on a rounding course and suddenly on the receiving end of a slick PR pitch with no purpose other than to relieve you of $50,000 for something guaranteed never to happen by a so-called spiritual group you probably thought was the dogs bollocks up to that point. Hard to say since I wasn't there and can't be sure how the pitch would have come across to me. But I got turned off on the TMO probably within a month of beginning TM when I attended a celebration at my local TM center (and that was before my first residence course, so the dog's bollocks situation you describe wouldn't have applied to me--I'd already decided that the TMO sucked). My guess is that I'd have ignored it, which is what I've done with almost all the sales pitches I've ever had from the TMO, during rounding or otherwise (only sales pitches I experienced during rounding were for advanced programs). Plus the fact that at no time when I was taking rounding courses would I have had $50,000 of which to be relieved! - But you ignored all that and *asked me the same damn question again*, as if you assumed I must have had that kind of money to give away. Still didn't make sense, and I pointed that out again: - It simply wouldn't have been a big blip on my radar screen. Just more silly TMO blah-blah-blah, tune it out. Vedaland was a ridiculous notion to start with even when Henning was still in full cry. What, Judy the great champion of truth and persecutor of the dishonest wouldn't have made as much as a squeak if someone from her so-called spiritual group tried to relieve her of her life savings? Not when she was on a rounding course, no (not least because she didn't have any life savings to be relieved of, as I've already noted). Hah! I find that rather hard to believe. But then I was there and saw it. Besides, it wasn't about whether the blah-blah was going to happen, it's about dishonest fundraising. Right. My point was that I would have paid too little attention to the blah-blah-blah even to notice that it was dishonest. - Then when you tried this morning to make me an example of Cult Avoidance Syndrome, you cited that entirely irrelevant part of my response(s) as if it were all I had said-- because you couldn't pin Cult Avoidance Syndrome on me based on what I had actually given as the reason I wouldn't have been outraged by the pitch (because I wouldn't have paid enough attention to it to realize it was dishonest, being contemptuous of TMO donation pitches in general and of the whole Vedaland idiocy in particular). Sleazy in the extreme. What else have you twisted in your attempt to avoid cognitive dissonance? You are learning well from Barry. Yep, me Barry and Goebbels meet regularly for training sessions. Now you need to learn what he never has: You can't get away with pulling that kind of misrepresentation here, and it has a very negative effect on your credibility. If you're willing to be dishonest about something that's so easily proven false, you're likely to be even more willing to be dishonest about something that's more difficult to document. You see how you go on about what you see as dishonesty here? You bet I go on about dishonesty here. It's digusting and reprehensible, and it gets seriously in the way of an accurate perspective on TM-related
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
So the current enormities of the TMO don't bother you, people being lied to and bilked out of hard earned or easy inherited dollars? From: doctordumb...@rocketmail.com doctordumb...@rocketmail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:22 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up Who said I don't have an opinion on these things? WTF? I'm just done, after one, two or three decades, rehashing this stuff. It happened. Lots of bad shit happens in the world, every day. Much worse than the self-centered crap you keep wallowing in. If you want to get upset, get upset over all the random death for resources that continues globally, the pedophile epidemic, all the animals that get discarded as pets and killed - This being Kali Yuga, there is a lot of stuff going on NOW to be concerned about. Going over some bad experiences you had at the hands of unethical and stupid people so many years ago, and having me put my opinions in, is way, way, way, way down there on my list of CURRENT priorities. Got it? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I shall put you in with Nabby and Dumbass as not understanding your motives. Sal, I'll make my motive E-Zee P-Zee for you, regarding rehashing these historical events: 10 years = 3,650 days = 87,600 hours. 20 years = 7,300 days = 175,200 hours. 30 years = 10,950 days = 262,800 hours. I have had plenty of time to think about, and fully resolve, any questions, issues, experiences, and memories of my TM days. How much more time do you and Mike and Barry, etc. need I'm starting to feel embarrassed for you guys.:-( It's actually surreal to me that you don't get the point about motives. The conversation isn't about getting over things it's about what happened (that MJ didn't know about) and why other people who witnessed it didn't react in a normal way. We are talking about about cultish methods of issue avoidance like Nabby's I never saw anything like it so you must be lying or Judy's I wouldn't be annoyed that someone tried to rip me off $50,000 for something that couldn't happen because I don't have $50,000. There is something other than you having got over the TMO going on here. I suspect a fear of rocking the boat or not questioning the master plays a big part. Somebody trying to rip me off doesn't become a good thing over time, I don't forget who my friends are and crooks I don't count among them. The idea that you resolve things and then you cease to have an opinion on them sounds rather artificial to me.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson wrote: So the current enormities of the TMO don't bother you, people being lied to and bilked out of hard earned or easy inherited dollars? From: doctordumbass@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:22 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up  Who said I don't have an opinion on these things? WTF? I'm just done, after one, two or three decades, rehashing this stuff. It happened. Lots of bad shit happens in the world, every day. Much worse than the self-centered crap you keep wallowing in. If you want to get upset, get upset over all the random death for resources that continues globally, the pedophile epidemic, all the animals that get discarded as pets and killed - This being Kali Yuga, there is a lot of stuff going on NOW to be concerned about. Going over some bad experiences you had at the hands of unethical and stupid people so many years ago, and having me put my opinions in, is way, way, way, way down there on my list of CURRENT priorities. Got it? I totally understand what you're saying here and I would have to back you up on this perspective Dr.(although I would have said it differently, maybe because I am not a guy). There does seem to be a lot of other things that could take precedence over older perceived fraudulent activities and transgressions of the TMO in someone's life but I think MJ feels compelled, for personal reasons, to focus on those things that happened to him and around him during his time in the Movement. And as he explained, it is not that he has been thinking non stop about it for 25 years, it is just that it has recently come to the forefront for him once again and he is apparently bothered enough about it that he needs to address it right now. Carol was kind of doing the same thing with this John guy. Some people got tired of it and let her know, just as some have had enough of listening to MJ. But evidently FFL provides a means for all of us to various grievances over current and not-so-current incidents. It can resemble a vomitorium sometimes but I think it can also be (Share, are you listening?) healing(!) Nevertheless, I'm with you on the current state of disarray on our planet to be far more relevant than year's old incidents, for me at least. (God, it's cumbersome typing on an iPad. It's even worse being stuck outside Philadelphia for a night and a day in a mediocre Radisson without my dog, horse or husband.) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I shall put you in with Nabby and Dumbass as not understanding your motives. Sal, I'll make my motive E-Zee P-Zee for you, regarding rehashing these historical events: 10 years = 3,650 days = 87,600 hours. 20 years = 7,300 days = 175,200 hours. 30 years = 10,950 days = 262,800 hours. I have had plenty of time to think about, and fully resolve, any questions, issues, experiences, and memories of my TM days. How much more time do you and Mike and Barry, etc. need I'm starting to feel embarrassed for you guys.:-( It's actually surreal to me that you don't get the point about motives. The conversation isn't about getting over things it's about what happened (that MJ didn't know about) and why other people who witnessed it didn't react in a normal way. We are talking about about cultish methods of issue avoidance like Nabby's I never saw anything like it so you must be lying or Judy's I wouldn't be annoyed that someone tried to rip me off $50,000 for something that couldn't happen because I don't have $50,000. There is something other than you having got over the TMO going on here. I suspect a fear of rocking the boat or not questioning the master plays a big part. Somebody trying to rip me off doesn't become a good thing over time, I don't forget who my friends are and crooks I don't count among them. The idea that you resolve things and then you cease to have an opinion on them sounds rather artificial to me.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
Damn it Barry - I know a lot of people on here revile you and I admit when you express disdain or contempt you tend to do it like Jon Jones does his opponents in the Octagon (if you have ever watched one of Jones' matches, he appears to be some sort of alien in his abilities to maul his opponents - for what it is worth, I only watch MMA bouts when I visit my brother who is addicted to them) But you have an ability to nail certain things I am doing or have done in the past. In this instance, at that time period of the 1990's I definitely had the idea that rounding was something that was only safe if one had an experienced meditation teacher to take care of you, in case you had some roughness or something. In truth I also always had two reactions to rounding when it was just TM (pre-sidhis rounding) I slept during the meetings (especially Larry Domash and Hagelin tapes) and ate like a hog. One of the things I loved the most about the old residence courses in Charleston SC and Atlanta was the food - so I didn't want to be responsible for feeding myself while rounding and missing out on some good vittles that someone else cooked. I also realize that even as I read your post that old programming about rounding only on a TM course was still in my awareness. Mar-chee did his job of programming very well. From: turquoiseb no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 12:05 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up I'm just going to riff off of one small aspect of your post, because it triggered a train of thought that I found inter- esting and wanted to rap about. No disrespect to the rest of your excellent post, really. :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson wrote: Quite by accident or perhaps by Cosmic Design, I became aware of some things that disturbed me a fair amount with the behavior of Bevan and other members of the TMO who were creating some shenanigans in Heavenly Mountain - it was really the Boone, NC stuff that made me decide not to have anything to do with the TMO except maybe round sometime... Have you ever noticed that one of the never-noticed and never-spoken-of assumptions that many people make, *including* those who have stepped back from involve- ment in the TMO, is that being able to round is somehow inevitably linked to being in good enough standing with the TMO that you will still be allowed to go on one of their courses? The assumption is that on a course officially offered by the TMO is the only place they *could* round, or at least safely round. Did it never occur to them to just go to a nice place, rent a room with a great view, and just do some extra rounds on their own? Did it never occur to them to go on some other organization's retreat and just do their TM and/or TMSP program there? I suspect, now that this has been brought to my attention, that a LOT of people picked up this subliminal idea that one cannot or should not round except on a TM course. And why? Is it somehow safer to round as we were instructed on an official course? Do you believe that the people who led them had any ability to keep you safe, that they were taught things specific to rounding to watch for in course participants and how to help them out of the difficulties if they found themselves in one? I ran all of the TM residence courses offered in the Western US States for several years. In that capacity I was pretty much in charge of residence course teacher training, in that I made sure that everyone who taught these weekend or week-long course followed certain guidelines sent down to us from International. In the Regional Offices we tried our best to select good teachers, people with a good rep as teachers, but also as having a good head on their shoulders and being pretty real-world grounded. But I can assure you that none of them ever received any training on how to take care of anything woeful that might happen to a course participant during rounding. It was as if the whole residence course idea was based on the assumption that this could never *happen*. What could possibly go wrong, after all, on a TM residence course that is by definition 100% life supporting? This may have changed after I left the TM movement, and as more people freaked out on courses. I can only speak for the period up to 1972, and based on my own limited experience within the TMO. If anyone who ever taught residence courses has different memories, please speak up. Anyway, these were just thoughts triggered by something Michael said, thrown out to see if anyone identifies with them, or has anything to say about them.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
Michael Jackson: Damn it Barry - So, it's all about Barry. I know a lot of people on here revile you and I admit when you express disdain or contempt you tend to do it like Jon Jones does his opponents in the Octagon (if you have ever watched one of Jones' matches, he appears to be some sort of alien in his abilities to maul his opponents - for what it is worth, I only watch MMA bouts when I visit my brother who is addicted to them) But you have an ability to nail certain things I am doing or have done in the past. In this instance, at that time period of the 1990's I definitely had the idea that rounding was something that was only safe if one had an experienced meditation teacher to take care of you, in case you had some roughness or something. In truth I also always had two reactions to rounding when it was just TM (pre-sidhis rounding) I slept during the meetings (especially Larry Domash and Hagelin tapes) and ate like a hog. One of the things I loved the most about the old residence courses in Charleston SC and Atlanta was the food - so I didn't want to be responsible for feeding myself while rounding and missing out on some good vittles that someone else cooked. I also realize that even as I read your post that old programming about rounding only on a TM course was still in my awareness. Mar-chee did his job of programming very well. From: turquoiseb To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 12:05 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up  I'm just going to riff off of one small aspect of your post, because it triggered a train of thought that I found inter- esting and wanted to rap about. No disrespect to the rest of your excellent post, really. :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson wrote: Quite by accident or perhaps by Cosmic Design, I became aware of some things that disturbed me a fair amount with the behavior of Bevan and other members of the TMO who were creating some shenanigans in Heavenly Mountain - it was really the Boone, NC stuff that made me decide not to have anything to do with the TMO except maybe round sometime... Have you ever noticed that one of the never-noticed and never-spoken-of assumptions that many people make, *including* those who have stepped back from involve- ment in the TMO, is that being able to round is somehow inevitably linked to being in good enough standing with the TMO that you will still be allowed to go on one of their courses? The assumption is that on a course officially offered by the TMO is the only place they *could* round, or at least safely round. Did it never occur to them to just go to a nice place, rent a room with a great view, and just do some extra rounds on their own? Did it never occur to them to go on some other organization's retreat and just do their TM and/or TMSP program there? I suspect, now that this has been brought to my attention, that a LOT of people picked up this subliminal idea that one cannot or should not round except on a TM course. And why? Is it somehow safer to round as we were instructed on an official course? Do you believe that the people who led them had any ability to keep you safe, that they were taught things specific to rounding to watch for in course participants and how to help them out of the difficulties if they found themselves in one? I ran all of the TM residence courses offered in the Western US States for several years. In that capacity I was pretty much in charge of residence course teacher training, in that I made sure that everyone who taught these weekend or week-long course followed certain guidelines sent down to us from International. In the Regional Offices we tried our best to select good teachers, people with a good rep as teachers, but also as having a good head on their shoulders and being pretty real-world grounded. But I can assure you that none of them ever received any training on how to take care of anything woeful that might happen to a course participant during rounding. It was as if the whole residence course idea was based on the assumption that this could never *happen*. What could possibly go wrong, after all, on a TM residence course that is by definition 100% life supporting? This may have changed after I left the TM movement, and as more people freaked out on courses. I can only speak for the period up to 1972, and based on my own limited experience within the TMO. If anyone who ever taught residence courses has different memories, please speak up. Anyway, these were just thoughts triggered by something Michael said, thrown out to see if anyone identifies with them, or has anything to say about them.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
I sniff out scams pretty well. As for those who don't, provided they are over 21, Caveat Emptor. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson wrote: So the current enormities of the TMO don't bother you, people being lied to and bilked out of hard earned or easy inherited dollars? From: doctordumbass@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:22 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up  Who said I don't have an opinion on these things? WTF? I'm just done, after one, two or three decades, rehashing this stuff. It happened. Lots of bad shit happens in the world, every day. Much worse than the self-centered crap you keep wallowing in. If you want to get upset, get upset over all the random death for resources that continues globally, the pedophile epidemic, all the animals that get discarded as pets and killed - This being Kali Yuga, there is a lot of stuff going on NOW to be concerned about. Going over some bad experiences you had at the hands of unethical and stupid people so many years ago, and having me put my opinions in, is way, way, way, way down there on my list of CURRENT priorities. Got it? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I shall put you in with Nabby and Dumbass as not understanding your motives. Sal, I'll make my motive E-Zee P-Zee for you, regarding rehashing these historical events: 10 years = 3,650 days = 87,600 hours. 20 years = 7,300 days = 175,200 hours. 30 years = 10,950 days = 262,800 hours. I have had plenty of time to think about, and fully resolve, any questions, issues, experiences, and memories of my TM days. How much more time do you and Mike and Barry, etc. need I'm starting to feel embarrassed for you guys.:-( It's actually surreal to me that you don't get the point about motives. The conversation isn't about getting over things it's about what happened (that MJ didn't know about) and why other people who witnessed it didn't react in a normal way. We are talking about about cultish methods of issue avoidance like Nabby's I never saw anything like it so you must be lying or Judy's I wouldn't be annoyed that someone tried to rip me off $50,000 for something that couldn't happen because I don't have $50,000. There is something other than you having got over the TMO going on here. I suspect a fear of rocking the boat or not questioning the master plays a big part. Somebody trying to rip me off doesn't become a good thing over time, I don't forget who my friends are and crooks I don't count among them. The idea that you resolve things and then you cease to have an opinion on them sounds rather artificial to me.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@... wrote: Who said I don't have an opinion on these things? WTF? I'm just done, after one, two or three decades, rehashing this stuff. It happened. Lots of bad shit happens in the world, every day. Much worse than the self-centered crap you keep wallowing in. If you want to get upset, get upset over all the random death for resources that continues globally, the pedophile epidemic, all the animals that get discarded as pets and killed - This being Kali Yuga, there is a lot of stuff going on NOW to be concerned about. Going over some bad experiences you had at the hands of unethical and stupid people so many years ago, and having me put my opinions in, is way, way, way, way down there on my list of CURRENT priorities. Got it? BINGO !
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
Emily, As you thought, Playa is much less like that than Cancun. We're staying with friends that own a nice place near the water. Although it's warm, it's been cloudy, but, as the wife likes to reminds me, I need to work on my gratitude. I have noticed that it's impossible to be angry (or fearful), and grateful at the same time. My only requirement for a therapist is a sense of humor, how else could they understand God (smiley face). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVAnlke_xUY From: Emily Reyn emilymae.r...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 9:09:48 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up Thanks Bob. I love Marc Cohn. When I was turning 40, a friend, whose birthday was 5 days from mine set up a trip to Cancun with a couple of other friends of hers. One of those timeshare deals. My first trip to Mexico. She flew us first class - my first time on first class - what a great thing. We were assaulted with the program once we got there, but we did make it to chitzen itza and did some snorkeling and I loved the pool. The hotel grounds had a pervasive smell of septic, in that the system was failing, which ruined the beach - too much development on that spit to put it mildly. After a couple of nights of being herded around like cattle to the different clubs, where waitresses tried to force shots of very bad tequila down us, I ditched. I was carrying around a Spanish/English dictionary and hailed a cab to go the older part of town and found a jazz club run by an expat with live music - the best night I had. We all determined that Playa Del Carmen was where we would go next time, but that time never came, as is often the case. Nice place to be right now. As an aside, I saw the family counselor yesterday, who took one look at me in my Sun Valley wool hat, two scarves, and raincoat covered in dog hair, and informed me that it's a myth that motivation precedes action. I must get going (smiley face). From: Bob Price bobpri...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 3:24 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up Too bad about the link, it played just fine in Playa Del Carmen; how about these: OBBA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwR0n87v2BQ EMILY: http://tinyurl.com/ah6ye8j ONCE UPON A TIME: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvDJ5a6KZj4 From: Emily Reyn emilymae.r...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 9:41:52 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up I noted the same about the link, but know the song and thus moved to Bob's other link of the book. What a great book; a great offering with wonderful drawings. The pages turn for you, which is very cool. That is a pertinent link to what Curtis posted and I have saved it to peruse. From: obbajeeba no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 6:28 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up FFL, the endless battle of who did what, and how come I am not fucking enlightened yet. Hey Bob, the link you put at the end of your post below on this thread, it does not work if one lives in the States. I love Purple rain to go along with those purple high stretch stiletto boots, please share a link we can see from here, the States.. Emily would most likely appreciate it too! The mention in a post to the Turq, I do not live in Fairfield, and not in Manhattan (deduct my non response of 72nd and 4th)(nor the L train from Willamsburg) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhgjEObtrWE Oh,Give me a ticket on an Air-o-plane. you now have minus three areas I may or may not live,at certain times. :) I live in my skin, the blanket of FFL. You guys and ladies, are my warmth. :) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bob Price wrote: MILAREPA once sent three of his devotees, each with a blanket, into the mountains of Tibet with the instruction to not return until they had mastered their inner heat. The monks found an ice field, laid out their blankets, and began to mediate; windstorms and angry blizzards pummeled the three adherents and covered them with ice and snow, but the three continued to mediate without interruption. Finally, after ten years had passed, one of the monks opened his eyes and glared at the monk beside him and angrily shouted: You're sitting on my blanket! The angry monk then closed his eyes and the three continued to mediate. More wind,
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
Mr. Price, A One eyed purple people eater. A ribbed condom. Same thing. :) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bob Price wrote: Emily, As you thought, Playa is much less like that than Cancun. We're staying with friends that own a nice place near the water. Although it's warm, it's been cloudy, but, as the wife likes to reminds me, I need to work on my gratitude. I have noticed that it's impossible to be angry (or fearful), and grateful at the same time. My only requirement for a therapist is a sense of humor, how else could they understand God (smiley face). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVAnlke_xUY From: Emily Reyn To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 9:09:48 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up Thanks Bob.  I love Marc Cohn.  When I was turning 40, a friend, whose birthday was 5 days from mine set up a trip to Cancun with a couple of other friends of hers.  One of those timeshare deals.  My first trip to Mexico.  She flew us first class - my first time on first class - what a great thing.  We were assaulted with the program once we got there, but we did make it to chitzen itza and did some snorkeling and I loved the pool. The hotel grounds had a pervasive smell of septic, in that the system was failing, which ruined the beach - too much development on that spit to put it mildly.  After a couple of nights of being herded around like cattle to the different clubs, where waitresses tried to force shots of very bad tequila down us, I ditched.  I was carrying around a Spanish/English dictionary and hailed a cab to go the older part of town and found a jazz club run by an expat with live music - the best night I had.  We all determined that Playa Del Carmen was where we would go next time, but that time never came, as is often the case.  Nice place to be right now.  As an aside, I saw the family counselor yesterday, who took one look at me in my Sun Valley wool hat, two scarves, and raincoat covered in dog hair, and informed me that it's a myth that motivation precedes action.  I must get going (smiley face).  From: Bob Price To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 3:24 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up  Too bad about the link, it played just fine in Playa Del Carmen; how about these: OBBA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwR0n87v2BQ EMILY: http://tinyurl.com/ah6ye8j ONCE UPON A TIME: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvDJ5a6KZj4 From: Emily Reyn emilymae.reyn@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 9:41:52 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up I noted the same about the link, but know the song and thus moved to Bob's other link of the book.  What a great book; a great offering with wonderful drawings.  The pages turn for you, which is very cool.  That is a pertinent link to what Curtis posted and I have saved it to peruse.  From: obbajeeba no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 6:28 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up  FFL, the endless battle of who did what, and how come I am not fucking enlightened yet. Hey Bob, the link you put at the end of your post below on this thread, it does not work if one lives in the States. I love Purple rain to go along with those purple high stretch stiletto boots, please share a link we can see from here, the States.. Emily would most likely appreciate it too! The mention in a post to the Turq, I do not live in Fairfield, and not in Manhattan (deduct my non response of 72nd and 4th)(nor the L train from Willamsburg) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhgjEObtrWE  Oh,Give me a ticket on an Air-o-plane.  you now have minus three areas I may or may not live,at certain times. :) I live in my skin, the blanket of FFL. You guys and ladies, are my warmth. :) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bob Price  wrote: MILAREPA once sent three of his devotees, each with a blanket, into the mountains of Tibet with the instruction to not return until they had mastered their inner heat.àThe monks found an ice field, laid out their blankets, and began to mediate; windstorms and angry blizzards pummeled the three adherents and covered them with ice and snow, but the three continued to mediate without interruption. Finally, after ten years had passed, one of the monks opened his eyes and
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
Buck, I am not in the men's dome. Unless, you wish to be my beard. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 wrote: I really feel that if we could just sit to meditate together then you'd come to understand the truly larger Good you rile against. You guys just need to come back, get your meditation checked, sit in a group meditation, listen to an advanced lecture again and then you'd see what mischief in nature you are doing mucking and raking all this negativity of yours. I live in my skin, the blanket of FFL. You guys and ladies, are my warmth. Obba, get off my blanket, -Buck --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote: The unbounded faith which conservative Meditators have in their own principles, and the way they regard the principles and practices of other techniques, approach intolerance on their part. They believe they are guided to their convictions by the Spirit of Truth, and they really think they have arrived at absolutely correct conclusions, and that any other opinions are wrong. They think that all who differ from them would agree with them if they had sufficient light . -Buck --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson wrote: Why on earth would anyone make up something like that? There are far too many stories that abound about unethical behavior on the part of the TMO for people to have to make any up. According to Nabby, anyone who says such things is on the payroll of the CIA, or the Dalai Lama. I don't know about you, but if this is true, my payroll checks have been lost in the mail. :-) More seriously, there are a number of people here whose world view is so precarious that they believe that anyone who says anything that threatens that world view is attacking them. They're terrified of allowing the (in their view) heretical ideas into their awareness, so they either retreat into nostalgic ideas of the move- ment and ignore them, or play Kill the messenger and try to suppress them. I think it's sad, and if this mindset is the legacy of the decades they've spent meditating, an even sadder one. From: nablusoss1008 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 7:42 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I can honestly say I went on a lot of residence courses, and was never asked to donate money, or purchase *anything*. Wasn't a perfect experience, but this rapaciousness you attribute to the reps of the TMO was just never present whenever I interacted with them. Not once, during major national courses, residence courses, or working for the TMO on staff, was I ever asked for donations, or to get the next big thing. This is some tape loop in your head, that does not match reality. And you know what they say, where there's smoke, there's fire...:-) Ah, so we imagined it all. Fascinating evasion. I've never encountered any form of sales-pitch on ANY course during decades in the TMO. So far we only have your version of this.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
Ah ha ha...good one, Obba. From: obbajeeba no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 8:28 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up Buck, I am not in the men's dome. Unless, you wish to be my beard. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5 wrote: I really feel that if we could just sit to meditate together then you'd come to understand the truly larger Good you rile against. You guys just need to come back, get your meditation checked, sit in a group meditation, listen to an advanced lecture again and then you'd see what mischief in nature you are doing mucking and raking all this negativity of yours. I live in my skin, the blanket of FFL. You guys and ladies, are my warmth. Obba, get off my blanket, -Buck --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote: The unbounded faith which conservative Meditators have in their own principles, and the way they regard the principles and practices of other techniques, approach intolerance on their part. They believe they are guided to their convictions by the Spirit of Truth, and they really think they have arrived at absolutely correct conclusions, and that any other opinions are wrong. They think that all who differ from them would agree with them if they had sufficient light…. -Buck --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson wrote: Why on earth would anyone make up something like that? There are far too many stories that abound about unethical behavior on the part of the TMO for people to have to make any up. According to Nabby, anyone who says such things is on the payroll of the CIA, or the Dalai Lama. I don't know about you, but if this is true, my payroll checks have been lost in the mail. :-) More seriously, there are a number of people here whose world view is so precarious that they believe that anyone who says anything that threatens that world view is attacking them. They're terrified of allowing the (in their view) heretical ideas into their awareness, so they either retreat into nostalgic ideas of the move- ment and ignore them, or play Kill the messenger and try to suppress them. I think it's sad, and if this mindset is the legacy of the decades they've spent meditating, an even sadder one. From: nablusoss1008 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 7:42 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I can honestly say I went on a lot of residence courses, and was never asked to donate money, or purchase *anything*. Wasn't a perfect experience, but this rapaciousness you attribute to the reps of the TMO was just never present whenever I interacted with them. Not once, during major national courses, residence courses, or working for the TMO on staff, was I ever asked for donations, or to get the next big thing. This is some tape loop in your head, that does not match reality. And you know what they say, where there's smoke, there's fire...:-) Ah, so we imagined it all. Fascinating evasion. I've never encountered any form of sales-pitch on ANY course during decades in the TMO. So far we only have your version of this.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@... wrote: Oh salyavin808, I am incredibly sorry I have not given your's and Barry's and MJ's victimization the full respect, adoration and drama it deserves! Damn, were you ever spanked by mommy, or daddy? Should we add that to the list?? Did you ever drop a quarter and it rolled under a sofa, and you couldn't get at it? THAT'S going on the list TOO! Hey, are you political? If so, please send me the number of times YOUR CANDIDATE lost! I am so ON it! I bleed for you guys. Geez, the abuses and harm and just plain Medieval TORTURE you, and Barry, and MJ have suffered at the hands of the TMO and Maharishi!!! OMG, The Holocaust pales in comparison! MY VAST, UNENDING APOLOGIES TO ALL OF YOU HAPLESS, BROKEN SOULS!!! Good GOD, what was I thinking?!?! Cognitive dissonance. Fascinating.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: Oh salyavin808, I am incredibly sorry I have not given your's and Barry's and MJ's victimization the full respect, adoration and drama it deserves! Damn, were you ever spanked by mommy, or daddy? Should we add that to the list?? Did you ever drop a quarter and it rolled under a sofa, and you couldn't get at it? THAT'S going on the list TOO! Hey, are you political? If so, please send me the number of times YOUR CANDIDATE lost! I am so ON it! I bleed for you guys. Geez, the abuses and harm and just plain Medieval TORTURE you, and Barry, and MJ have suffered at the hands of the TMO and Maharishi!!! OMG, The Holocaust pales in comparison! MY VAST, UNENDING APOLOGIES TO ALL OF YOU HAPLESS, BROKEN SOULS!!! Good GOD, what was I thinking?!?! Cognitive dissonance. Fascinating. And almost completely unaware of it. All while considering himself enlightened. Hasn't it been fascinating to see the TMers' refusal to deal with the actual issue here, and their utter reliance on Kill the messenger demonization instead? I have to believe that the reason is that they are still so guruwhipped that they're AFRAID to say things about the TMO or Maharishi that will be perceived as negative. They are probably so superstitious that they think Bad Things will happen to them if they do. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I can honestly say I went on a lot of residence courses, and was never asked to donate money, or purchase *anything*. Wasn't a perfect experience, but this rapaciousness you attribute to the reps of the TMO was just never present whenever I interacted with them. Not once, during major national courses, residence courses, or working for the TMO on staff, was I ever asked for donations, or to get the next big thing. This is some tape loop in your head, that does not match reality. And you know what they say, where there's smoke, there's fire...:-) Ah, so we imagined it all. Fascinating evasion. I've never encountered any form of sales-pitch on ANY course during decades in the TMO. So far we only have your version of this.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: Oh salyavin808, I am incredibly sorry I have not given your's and Barry's and MJ's victimization the full respect, adoration and drama it deserves! Damn, were you ever spanked by mommy, or daddy? Should we add that to the list?? Did you ever drop a quarter and it rolled under a sofa, and you couldn't get at it? THAT'S going on the list TOO! Hey, are you political? If so, please send me the number of times YOUR CANDIDATE lost! I am so ON it! I bleed for you guys. Geez, the abuses and harm and just plain Medieval TORTURE you, and Barry, and MJ have suffered at the hands of the TMO and Maharishi!!! OMG, The Holocaust pales in comparison! MY VAST, UNENDING APOLOGIES TO ALL OF YOU HAPLESS, BROKEN SOULS!!! Good GOD, what was I thinking?!?! Cognitive dissonance. Fascinating. And almost completely unaware of it. All while considering himself enlightened. Hasn't it been fascinating to see the TMers' refusal to deal with the actual issue here, and their utter reliance on Kill the messenger demonization instead? Yes, you probably can tell you're in a cult when you make excuses for the people ripping you off. I have to believe that the reason is that they are still so guruwhipped that they're AFRAID to say things about the TMO or Maharishi that will be perceived as negative. They are probably so superstitious that they think Bad Things will happen to them if they do. :-) We haven't heard at least the money goes to a good cause. Which I have heard a lot in the TMO when they raised some amount for something that never happened. But not rocking the boat for fear of incurring some sort of wrath from the course office or International seemed to be the main motivating factor to me. Can't have people unstressing and disturbing the other CPs. That and the weird idea that if the TMO does it then it must be right even if we don't understand it yet!
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I can honestly say I went on a lot of residence courses, and was never asked to donate money, or purchase *anything*. Wasn't a perfect experience, but this rapaciousness you attribute to the reps of the TMO was just never present whenever I interacted with them. Not once, during major national courses, residence courses, or working for the TMO on staff, was I ever asked for donations, or to get the next big thing. This is some tape loop in your head, that does not match reality. And you know what they say, where there's smoke, there's fire...:-) Ah, so we imagined it all. Fascinating evasion. I've never encountered any form of sales-pitch on ANY course during decades in the TMO. Maybe you haven't been a part of the TMO at all, took a wrong turn somewhere on the way to your first introductory lecture and ended up at some other meditation centre all these years. What else could explain how so many others here have such a different experience than you? So far we only have your version of this.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: Oh salyavin808, I am incredibly sorry I have not given your's and Barry's and MJ's victimization the full respect, adoration and drama it deserves! Damn, were you ever spanked by mommy, or daddy? Should we add that to the list?? Did you ever drop a quarter and it rolled under a sofa, and you couldn't get at it? THAT'S going on the list TOO! Hey, are you political? If so, please send me the number of times YOUR CANDIDATE lost! I am so ON it! I bleed for you guys. Geez, the abuses and harm and just plain Medieval TORTURE you, and Barry, and MJ have suffered at the hands of the TMO and Maharishi!!! OMG, The Holocaust pales in comparison! MY VAST, UNENDING APOLOGIES TO ALL OF YOU HAPLESS, BROKEN SOULS!!! Good GOD, what was I thinking?!?! Cognitive dissonance. Fascinating. And almost completely unaware of it. All while considering himself enlightened. Hasn't it been fascinating to see the TMers' refusal to deal with the actual issue here, and their utter reliance on Kill the messenger demonization instead? I have to believe that the reason is that they are still so guruwhipped that they're AFRAID to say things about the TMO or Maharishi that will be perceived as negative. They are probably so superstitious that they think Bad Things will happen to them if they do. :-) Barry, the Master of the Sweeping Generalization.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
Why on earth would anyone make up something like that? There are far too many stories that abound about unethical behavior on the part of the TMO for people to have to make any up. From: nablusoss1008 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 7:42 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I can honestly say I went on a lot of residence courses, and was never asked to donate money, or purchase *anything*. Wasn't a perfect experience, but this rapaciousness you attribute to the reps of the TMO was just never present whenever I interacted with them. Not once, during major national courses, residence courses, or working for the TMO on staff, was I ever asked for donations, or to get the next big thing. This is some tape loop in your head, that does not match reality. And you know what they say, where there's smoke, there's fire...:-) Ah, so we imagined it all. Fascinating evasion. I've never encountered any form of sales-pitch on ANY course during decades in the TMO. So far we only have your version of this.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
They subconsciously identify themselves with the glory of an enlightened person, and enlightened organization. Since they identify themselves with the idea of such a delightful energy, they CANNOT question the person and organization because to do so means they have to question the very fabric of their own identity - too scary to do. You see the same thing when people identify with their social status, amount of money they have or their sports team. From: turquoiseb no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 4:56 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: Oh salyavin808, I am incredibly sorry I have not given your's and Barry's and MJ's victimization the full respect, adoration and drama it deserves! Damn, were you ever spanked by mommy, or daddy? Should we add that to the list?? Did you ever drop a quarter and it rolled under a sofa, and you couldn't get at it? THAT'S going on the list TOO! Hey, are you political? If so, please send me the number of times YOUR CANDIDATE lost! I am so ON it! I bleed for you guys. Geez, the abuses and harm and just plain Medieval TORTURE you, and Barry, and MJ have suffered at the hands of the TMO and Maharishi!!! OMG, The Holocaust pales in comparison! MY VAST, UNENDING APOLOGIES TO ALL OF YOU HAPLESS, BROKEN SOULS!!! Good GOD, what was I thinking?!?! Cognitive dissonance. Fascinating. And almost completely unaware of it. All while considering himself enlightened. Hasn't it been fascinating to see the TMers' refusal to deal with the actual issue here, and their utter reliance on Kill the messenger demonization instead? I have to believe that the reason is that they are still so guruwhipped that they're AFRAID to say things about the TMO or Maharishi that will be perceived as negative. They are probably so superstitious that they think Bad Things will happen to them if they do. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I can honestly say I went on a lot of residence courses, and was never asked to donate money, or purchase *anything*. Wasn't a perfect experience, but this rapaciousness you attribute to the reps of the TMO was just never present whenever I interacted with them. Not once, during major national courses, residence courses, or working for the TMO on staff, was I ever asked for donations, or to get the next big thing. This is some tape loop in your head, that does not match reality. And you know what they say, where there's smoke, there's fire...:-) Ah, so we imagined it all. Fascinating evasion. I've never encountered any form of sales-pitch on ANY course during decades in the TMO. So far we only have your version of this. And with your heavy issues with the TMO in general you have 0 credibility on this. Add to this that the only two who backs your story is two with perhaps even greater issues, MJ and the Turq which making your story stink from the psychiatrist's office and back.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I can honestly say I went on a lot of residence courses, and was never asked to donate money, or purchase *anything*. Wasn't a perfect experience, but this rapaciousness you attribute to the reps of the TMO was just never present whenever I interacted with them. Not once, during major national courses, residence courses, or working for the TMO on staff, was I ever asked for donations, or to get the next big thing. This is some tape loop in your head, that does not match reality. And you know what they say, where there's smoke, there's fire...:-) Ah, so we imagined it all. Fascinating evasion. I've never encountered any form of sales-pitch on ANY course during decades in the TMO. So far we only have your version of this. Nabby, what on Earth gives you the impression that anyone here believes *anything* you say, let alone anything you say about the TMO and Maharishi? I believe that Jimbo honestly believes that he doesn't remember anything being sold to him on residence courses, but IMO that's just because he has a demon- strably selective memory. That and the fact that he 1) probably never had any money for them to want in the form of donations, and 2) he was never that involved with the TMO in the first place. As for you, I suspect you're just lying, as you often do when things you don't want discussed about the TMO come up. Me, I experienced sales pitches on courses *dozens* of times over the years. The first, of course, were for advanced techniques (which weren't) and for TTC. Then for the Sidhis, first pitched to a group of us on an ATR course at Cobb Mountain in a two- hour presentation, presided over by teachers sent directly from Switzerland, under instructions from Maharishi to sell exactly what they were selling -- the Next Big Thing. I left long before any of the other silly add on products that TBs fell for appeared on the scene. Things like Ayurveda and S-V houses and WPA courses and stuff like that. But I have heard enough stories from those who stuck around longer than I did that these products were indeed pitched to people on long rounding courses as well. Pretending that this didn't happen just doesn't cut it. It *did* happen, and my bet is that the vast majority of readers of this forum know this, whether they're speaking up or not. My bet is that it's *still* happening. So the bottom line is that the organization that considered rounders in such a fragile state of mind that they weren't allowed to leave the course premises and were required to have buddies to keep track of them every minute of the day ALSO considered them fair game while in this fragile state for their sales pitches. This indicates to me a certain hypocrisy and insensi- tivity on the part of the TM organization, if not outright greed and cult blindness. YMMV. If it does, why not chime in on this thread? Those who feel that they can defend this behavior on the part of the TMO, please do.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson wrote: Why on earth would anyone make up something like that? There are far too many stories that abound about unethical behavior on the part of the TMO for people to have to make any up. According to Nabby, anyone who says such things is on the payroll of the CIA, or the Dalai Lama. I don't know about you, but if this is true, my payroll checks have been lost in the mail. :-) More seriously, there are a number of people here whose world view is so precarious that they believe that anyone who says anything that threatens that world view is attacking them. They're terrified of allowing the (in their view) heretical ideas into their awareness, so they either retreat into nostalgic ideas of the move- ment and ignore them, or play Kill the messenger and try to suppress them. I think it's sad, and if this mindset is the legacy of the decades they've spent meditating, an even sadder one. From: nablusoss1008 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 7:42 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I can honestly say I went on a lot of residence courses, and was never asked to donate money, or purchase *anything*. Wasn't a perfect experience, but this rapaciousness you attribute to the reps of the TMO was just never present whenever I interacted with them. Not once, during major national courses, residence courses, or working for the TMO on staff, was I ever asked for donations, or to get the next big thing. This is some tape loop in your head, that does not match reality. And you know what they say, where there's smoke, there's fire...:-) Ah, so we imagined it all. Fascinating evasion. I've never encountered any form of sales-pitch on ANY course during decades in the TMO. So far we only have your version of this.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I can honestly say I went on a lot of residence courses, and was never asked to donate money, or purchase *anything*. Wasn't a perfect experience, but this rapaciousness you attribute to the reps of the TMO was just never present whenever I interacted with them. Not once, during major national courses, residence courses, or working for the TMO on staff, was I ever asked for donations, or to get the next big thing. This is some tape loop in your head, that does not match reality. And you know what they say, where there's smoke, there's fire...:-) Ah, so we imagined it all. Fascinating evasion. I've never encountered any form of sales-pitch on ANY course during decades in the TMO. So far we only have your version of this. OK Nab, it's obviously easier for you to believe it never happened than for you to face an unpalatable truth. Reading between those lines it's obvious you think it's wrong too. So here's the question: what would you have said if you had been there?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson wrote: Why on earth would anyone make up something like that? There are far too many stories that abound about unethical behavior on the part of the TMO for people to have to make any up. Apart from the waste of a nice sunny afternoon it would be to invent stories, I'm well aware I could be sued for spreading falsehoods like this. From: nablusoss1008 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 7:42 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I can honestly say I went on a lot of residence courses, and was never asked to donate money, or purchase *anything*. Wasn't a perfect experience, but this rapaciousness you attribute to the reps of the TMO was just never present whenever I interacted with them. Not once, during major national courses, residence courses, or working for the TMO on staff, was I ever asked for donations, or to get the next big thing. This is some tape loop in your head, that does not match reality. And you know what they say, where there's smoke, there's fire...:-) Ah, so we imagined it all. Fascinating evasion. I've never encountered any form of sales-pitch on ANY course during decades in the TMO. So far we only have your version of this.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
I grew up, and moved on. Too bad you did not, though you can be lead through life however you choose. Yes, I AM ENLIGHTENED, BARRY, AND DON'T YOU **EVER** FORGET IT!:-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: Oh salyavin808, I am incredibly sorry I have not given your's and Barry's and MJ's victimization the full respect, adoration and drama it deserves! Damn, were you ever spanked by mommy, or daddy? Should we add that to the list?? Did you ever drop a quarter and it rolled under a sofa, and you couldn't get at it? THAT'S going on the list TOO! Hey, are you political? If so, please send me the number of times YOUR CANDIDATE lost! I am so ON it! I bleed for you guys. Geez, the abuses and harm and just plain Medieval TORTURE you, and Barry, and MJ have suffered at the hands of the TMO and Maharishi!!! OMG, The Holocaust pales in comparison! MY VAST, UNENDING APOLOGIES TO ALL OF YOU HAPLESS, BROKEN SOULS!!! Good GOD, what was I thinking?!?! Cognitive dissonance. Fascinating. And almost completely unaware of it. All while considering himself enlightened. Hasn't it been fascinating to see the TMers' refusal to deal with the actual issue here, and their utter reliance on Kill the messenger demonization instead? I have to believe that the reason is that they are still so guruwhipped that they're AFRAID to say things about the TMO or Maharishi that will be perceived as negative. They are probably so superstitious that they think Bad Things will happen to them if they do. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
The unbounded faith which conservative Meditators have in their own principles, and the way they regard the principles and practices of other techniques, approach intolerance on their part. They believe they are guided to their convictions by the Spirit of Truth, and they really think they have arrived at absolutely correct conclusions, and that any other opinions are wrong. They think that all who differ from them would agree with them if they had sufficient light . -Buck --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson wrote: Why on earth would anyone make up something like that? There are far too many stories that abound about unethical behavior on the part of the TMO for people to have to make any up. Apart from the waste of a nice sunny afternoon it would be to invent stories, I'm well aware I could be sued for spreading falsehoods like this. From: nablusoss1008 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 7:42 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I can honestly say I went on a lot of residence courses, and was never asked to donate money, or purchase *anything*. Wasn't a perfect experience, but this rapaciousness you attribute to the reps of the TMO was just never present whenever I interacted with them. Not once, during major national courses, residence courses, or working for the TMO on staff, was I ever asked for donations, or to get the next big thing. This is some tape loop in your head, that does not match reality. And you know what they say, where there's smoke, there's fire...:-) Ah, so we imagined it all. Fascinating evasion. I've never encountered any form of sales-pitch on ANY course during decades in the TMO. So far we only have your version of this.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
The unbounded faith which conservative Meditators have in their own principles, and the way they regard the principles and practices of other techniques, approach intolerance on their part. They believe they are guided to their convictions by the Spirit of Truth, and they really think they have arrived at absolutely correct conclusions, and that any other opinions are wrong. They think that all who differ from them would agree with them if they had sufficient light . -Buck --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson wrote: Why on earth would anyone make up something like that? There are far too many stories that abound about unethical behavior on the part of the TMO for people to have to make any up. According to Nabby, anyone who says such things is on the payroll of the CIA, or the Dalai Lama. I don't know about you, but if this is true, my payroll checks have been lost in the mail. :-) More seriously, there are a number of people here whose world view is so precarious that they believe that anyone who says anything that threatens that world view is attacking them. They're terrified of allowing the (in their view) heretical ideas into their awareness, so they either retreat into nostalgic ideas of the move- ment and ignore them, or play Kill the messenger and try to suppress them. I think it's sad, and if this mindset is the legacy of the decades they've spent meditating, an even sadder one. From: nablusoss1008 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 7:42 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I can honestly say I went on a lot of residence courses, and was never asked to donate money, or purchase *anything*. Wasn't a perfect experience, but this rapaciousness you attribute to the reps of the TMO was just never present whenever I interacted with them. Not once, during major national courses, residence courses, or working for the TMO on staff, was I ever asked for donations, or to get the next big thing. This is some tape loop in your head, that does not match reality. And you know what they say, where there's smoke, there's fire...:-) Ah, so we imagined it all. Fascinating evasion. I've never encountered any form of sales-pitch on ANY course during decades in the TMO. So far we only have your version of this.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
FFL, the endless battle of who did what, and how come I am not fucking enlightened yet. Hey Bob, the link you put at the end of your post below on this thread, it does not work if one lives in the States. I love Purple rain to go along with those purple high stretch stiletto boots, please share a link we can see from here, the States.. Emily would most likely appreciate it too! The mention in a post to the Turq, I do not live in Fairfield, and not in Manhattan (deduct my non response of 72nd and 4th)(nor the L train from Willamsburg) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhgjEObtrWE Oh,Give me a ticket on an Air-o-plane. you now have minus three areas I may or may not live,at certain times. :) I live in my skin, the blanket of FFL. You guys and ladies, are my warmth. :) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bob Price wrote: MILAREPA once sent three of his devotees, each with a blanket, into the mountains of Tibet with the instruction to not return until they had mastered their inner heat. The monks found an ice field, laid out their blankets, and began to mediate; windstorms and angry blizzards pummeled the three adherents and covered them with ice and snow, but the three continued to mediate without interruption. Finally, after ten years had passed, one of the monks opened his eyes and glared at the monk beside him and angrily shouted: You're sitting on my blanket! The angry monk then closed his eyes and the three continued to mediate. More wind, snow and ice storms hit the mountain and froze the monks solid, but still they continued their practice without interruption. After another ten years had passed the second monk opened his eyes and shouted: No I'm not! The second angry monk then closed his eyes again, and the three continued to mediate peacefully. More blizzards and wind storms hit the mountain and covered the three monks with freezing rain and snow; the howling wind was deafening, and at times the three mediating monks were encased in solid blocks of ice, but they remained immoveable and continued to mediate uninterrupted. Finally, after another ten years had passed (making it thirty years since they had arrived), the third monk suddenly jumped up, grabbed his blanket, and ran down the mountain, back to the monastery where MILAREPA was waiting. MILAREPA asked the devotee: Why have you returned, have you mastered your inner heat? And the third monk answered: No master, I'm back because I got sick and tired of all the bickering and fighting! For OBBA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bydB3-k-qU From: turquoiseb To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 9:44:21 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up Just so this doesn't get buried inside a topic many people weren't reading, here it is with a new title, and under a new thread. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb  wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb  wrote: What makes you think that this negatively charged tone is in THEM? It seems to me that a large number of people *project* such things ONTO the TM critics, because they're heavily attached to Maharishi and TM, and *their* buttons got pushed. They're experiencing emotions inside themselves that they perceive as negative, so they project the source of that perceived negativity onto the critic. To expand upon this, Share, here's what I saw happen in this thread about the fundraising for Vedaland. Based upon what Michael and Salyavin have said about this incident, it seems clear that the TM organization not only was guilty of selling shares in a venture they knew was not going to happen because Doug was dying, they did so *on long-term residence courses*, sending people to solicit partnerships/donations from people who were rounding, and thus had been instructed to not make any serious decisions while rounding. OK, that strikes me as a pretty big WTF moment. And so far, in my quick re-read of the thread, it seems that other than Michael, Salyavin and myself, no one from the still-loyal-to-TM camp has really commented *on the issue itself*. Buck came the closest. Most others have been playing one form or another of Kill the messenger, either suggesting that something is wrong with Michael or the other critics, or that something was wrong with their tone, that it was negative. Here's what I think. The negativity is in the Kill the messenger types. They heard something *that they didn't want to hear*. It caused cognitive dissonance in them. They knew that if they dealt with it directly and said what this news made them *feel* about the organization they've been part of for so long,
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
Ohbe, you don't live in California either.:-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba wrote: FFL, the endless battle of who did what, and how come I am not fucking enlightened yet. Hey Bob, the link you put at the end of your post below on this thread, it does not work if one lives in the States. I love Purple rain to go along with those purple high stretch stiletto boots, please share a link we can see from here, the States.. Emily would most likely appreciate it too! The mention in a post to the Turq, I do not live in Fairfield, and not in Manhattan (deduct my non response of 72nd and 4th)(nor the L train from Willamsburg) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhgjEObtrWE Oh,Give me a ticket on an Air-o-plane. you now have minus three areas I may or may not live,at certain times. :) I live in my skin, the blanket of FFL. You guys and ladies, are my warmth. :) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bob Price wrote: MILAREPA once sent three of his devotees, each with a blanket, into the mountains of Tibet with the instruction to not return until they had mastered their inner heat. The monks found an ice field, laid out their blankets, and began to mediate; windstorms and angry blizzards pummeled the three adherents and covered them with ice and snow, but the three continued to mediate without interruption. Finally, after ten years had passed, one of the monks opened his eyes and glared at the monk beside him and angrily shouted: You're sitting on my blanket! The angry monk then closed his eyes and the three continued to mediate. More wind, snow and ice storms hit the mountain and froze the monks solid, but still they continued their practice without interruption. After another ten years had passed the second monk opened his eyes and shouted: No I'm not! The second angry monk then closed his eyes again, and the three continued to mediate peacefully. More blizzards and wind storms hit the mountain and covered the three monks with freezing rain and snow; the howling wind was deafening, and at times the three mediating monks were encased in solid blocks of ice, but they remained immoveable and continued to mediate uninterrupted. Finally, after another ten years had passed (making it thirty years since they had arrived), the third monk suddenly jumped up, grabbed his blanket, and ran down the mountain, back to the monastery where MILAREPA was waiting. MILAREPA asked the devotee: Why have you returned, have you mastered your inner heat? And the third monk answered: No master, I'm back because I got sick and tired of all the bickering and fighting! For OBBA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bydB3-k-qU From: turquoiseb To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 9:44:21 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up Just so this doesn't get buried inside a topic many people weren't reading, here it is with a new title, and under a new thread. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb  wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb  wrote: What makes you think that this negatively charged tone is in THEM? It seems to me that a large number of people *project* such things ONTO the TM critics, because they're heavily attached to Maharishi and TM, and *their* buttons got pushed. They're experiencing emotions inside themselves that they perceive as negative, so they project the source of that perceived negativity onto the critic. To expand upon this, Share, here's what I saw happen in this thread about the fundraising for Vedaland. Based upon what Michael and Salyavin have said about this incident, it seems clear that the TM organization not only was guilty of selling shares in a venture they knew was not going to happen because Doug was dying, they did so *on long-term residence courses*, sending people to solicit partnerships/donations from people who were rounding, and thus had been instructed to not make any serious decisions while rounding. OK, that strikes me as a pretty big WTF moment. And so far, in my quick re-read of the thread, it seems that other than Michael, Salyavin and myself, no one from the still-loyal-to-TM camp has really commented *on the issue itself*. Buck came the closest. Most others have been playing one form or another of Kill the messenger, either suggesting that something is wrong with Michael or the other critics, or that something was wrong with their tone, that it was negative. Here's what I think. The negativity is in the Kill the
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
I agree, there is no reason to make up anything. It takes time to come to decipher what happened and what really happened. Where is one today as well as where were they yesterday. Keeping the positive attitude or positive feelings cannot deduct the truth. It is easy to sit in the cushy cotton jar, and not know you are in there. Un stressing occurs on the program and off the program, that in itself gives question to what is happening as someone ways the magic wand. I like my meditation. It is the organization that needs an overhaul and abolishing the bells and whistle sales techniques, because that only attracts people who could not make it anywhere else and get an upper hand at being something, in the organization, thereby securing the abuses of competitive, better than thou imperfections as the negativity is ignored awhile the admiration of kalashes on corner posts of homes and vastu, the golden cow is worshiped? Having reviewed my past almost 20 years meditating, it is good to take that step back, as an artist does to find that plumb line. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson wrote: Why on earth would anyone make up something like that? There are far too many stories that abound about unethical behavior on the part of the TMO for people to have to make any up. From: nablusoss1008 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 7:42 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I can honestly say I went on a lot of residence courses, and was never asked to donate money, or purchase *anything*. Wasn't a perfect experience, but this rapaciousness you attribute to the reps of the TMO was just never present whenever I interacted with them. Not once, during major national courses, residence courses, or working for the TMO on staff, was I ever asked for donations, or to get the next big thing. This is some tape loop in your head, that does not match reality. And you know what they say, where there's smoke, there's fire...:-) Ah, so we imagined it all. Fascinating evasion. I've never encountered any form of sales-pitch on ANY course during decades in the TMO. So far we only have your version of this.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@... wrote: I grew up, and moved on. Too bad you did not, though you can be lead through life however you choose. Yes, I AM ENLIGHTENED, BARRY, AND DON'T YOU **EVER** FORGET IT!:-) I *can't* forget it, Jimbo, because I never believed it in the first place. Neither did *anyone else* on this forum. The only people you've been able to convince that you were enlightened were on Batgap, and you could convince those people that the moon was made of green cheese. :-) And again, I'm inviting anyone who disagrees with me about Jim's enlightened status, and who believes it, to chime in and agree with me. Didn't you NOTICE the last few times I mentioned this, and no one did? If you didn't, it might suggest that you have a learning diability. Just sayin'... :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: Oh salyavin808, I am incredibly sorry I have not given your's and Barry's and MJ's victimization the full respect, adoration and drama it deserves! Damn, were you ever spanked by mommy, or daddy? Should we add that to the list?? Did you ever drop a quarter and it rolled under a sofa, and you couldn't get at it? THAT'S going on the list TOO! Hey, are you political? If so, please send me the number of times YOUR CANDIDATE lost! I am so ON it! I bleed for you guys. Geez, the abuses and harm and just plain Medieval TORTURE you, and Barry, and MJ have suffered at the hands of the TMO and Maharishi!!! OMG, The Holocaust pales in comparison! MY VAST, UNENDING APOLOGIES TO ALL OF YOU HAPLESS, BROKEN SOULS!!! Good GOD, what was I thinking?!?! Cognitive dissonance. Fascinating. And almost completely unaware of it. All while considering himself enlightened. Hasn't it been fascinating to see the TMers' refusal to deal with the actual issue here, and their utter reliance on Kill the messenger demonization instead? I have to believe that the reason is that they are still so guruwhipped that they're AFRAID to say things about the TMO or Maharishi that will be perceived as negative. They are probably so superstitious that they think Bad Things will happen to them if they do. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
LOL - Gotcha!! ...and I told you I had a naughty side, but you just don't listen, do ya?...Let's try it again -- HEY BARRY, I AM ENLIGHTENED, AND DON'T YOU **EVER** FORGET IT!!!:-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I grew up, and moved on. Too bad you did not, though you can be lead through life however you choose. Yes, I AM ENLIGHTENED, BARRY, AND DON'T YOU **EVER** FORGET IT!:-) I *can't* forget it, Jimbo, because I never believed it in the first place. Neither did *anyone else* on this forum. The only people you've been able to convince that you were enlightened were on Batgap, and you could convince those people that the moon was made of green cheese. :-) And again, I'm inviting anyone who disagrees with me about Jim's enlightened status, and who believes it, to chime in and agree with me. Didn't you NOTICE the last few times I mentioned this, and no one did? If you didn't, it might suggest that you have a learning diability. Just sayin'... :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: Oh salyavin808, I am incredibly sorry I have not given your's and Barry's and MJ's victimization the full respect, adoration and drama it deserves! Damn, were you ever spanked by mommy, or daddy? Should we add that to the list?? Did you ever drop a quarter and it rolled under a sofa, and you couldn't get at it? THAT'S going on the list TOO! Hey, are you political? If so, please send me the number of times YOUR CANDIDATE lost! I am so ON it! I bleed for you guys. Geez, the abuses and harm and just plain Medieval TORTURE you, and Barry, and MJ have suffered at the hands of the TMO and Maharishi!!! OMG, The Holocaust pales in comparison! MY VAST, UNENDING APOLOGIES TO ALL OF YOU HAPLESS, BROKEN SOULS!!! Good GOD, what was I thinking?!?! Cognitive dissonance. Fascinating. And almost completely unaware of it. All while considering himself enlightened. Hasn't it been fascinating to see the TMers' refusal to deal with the actual issue here, and their utter reliance on Kill the messenger demonization instead? I have to believe that the reason is that they are still so guruwhipped that they're AFRAID to say things about the TMO or Maharishi that will be perceived as negative. They are probably so superstitious that they think Bad Things will happen to them if they do. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
That is debatable. There is a string attached, and it tells the tales similar to the Grapes of Wrath.. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@... wrote: Ohbe, you don't live in California either.:-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba wrote: FFL, the endless battle of who did what, and how come I am not fucking enlightened yet. Hey Bob, the link you put at the end of your post below on this thread, it does not work if one lives in the States. I love Purple rain to go along with those purple high stretch stiletto boots, please share a link we can see from here, the States.. Emily would most likely appreciate it too! The mention in a post to the Turq, I do not live in Fairfield, and not in Manhattan (deduct my non response of 72nd and 4th)(nor the L train from Willamsburg) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhgjEObtrWE Oh,Give me a ticket on an Air-o-plane. you now have minus three areas I may or may not live,at certain times. :) I live in my skin, the blanket of FFL. You guys and ladies, are my warmth. :) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bob Price wrote: MILAREPA once sent three of his devotees, each with a blanket, into the mountains of Tibet with the instruction to not return until they had mastered their inner heat. The monks found an ice field, laid out their blankets, and began to mediate; windstorms and angry blizzards pummeled the three adherents and covered them with ice and snow, but the three continued to mediate without interruption. Finally, after ten years had passed, one of the monks opened his eyes and glared at the monk beside him and angrily shouted: You're sitting on my blanket! The angry monk then closed his eyes and the three continued to mediate. More wind, snow and ice storms hit the mountain and froze the monks solid, but still they continued their practice without interruption. After another ten years had passed the second monk opened his eyes and shouted: No I'm not! The second angry monk then closed his eyes again, and the three continued to mediate peacefully. More blizzards and wind storms hit the mountain and covered the three monks with freezing rain and snow; the howling wind was deafening, and at times the three mediating monks were encased in solid blocks of ice, but they remained immoveable and continued to mediate uninterrupted. Finally, after another ten years had passed (making it thirty years since they had arrived), the third monk suddenly jumped up, grabbed his blanket, and ran down the mountain, back to the monastery where MILAREPA was waiting. MILAREPA asked the devotee: Why have you returned, have you mastered your inner heat? And the third monk answered: No master, I'm back because I got sick and tired of all the bickering and fighting! For OBBA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bydB3-k-qU From: turquoiseb To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 9:44:21 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up Just so this doesn't get buried inside a topic many people weren't reading, here it is with a new title, and under a new thread. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb  wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb  wrote: What makes you think that this negatively charged tone is in THEM? It seems to me that a large number of people *project* such things ONTO the TM critics, because they're heavily attached to Maharishi and TM, and *their* buttons got pushed. They're experiencing emotions inside themselves that they perceive as negative, so they project the source of that perceived negativity onto the critic. To expand upon this, Share, here's what I saw happen in this thread about the fundraising for Vedaland. Based upon what Michael and Salyavin have said about this incident, it seems clear that the TM organization not only was guilty of selling shares in a venture they knew was not going to happen because Doug was dying, they did so *on long-term residence courses*, sending people to solicit partnerships/donations from people who were rounding, and thus had been instructed to not make any serious decisions while rounding. OK, that strikes me as a pretty big WTF moment. And so far, in my quick re-read of the thread, it seems that other than Michael, Salyavin and myself, no one from the still-loyal-to-TM camp has really commented *on the issue itself*. Buck came the
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
Barry, Jim's enlightenment is parve. Meaning what does it matter,whether he is, or he isn't? You can go either way with it. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I grew up, and moved on. Too bad you did not, though you can be lead through life however you choose. Yes, I AM ENLIGHTENED, BARRY, AND DON'T YOU **EVER** FORGET IT!:-) I *can't* forget it, Jimbo, because I never believed it in the first place. Neither did *anyone else* on this forum. The only people you've been able to convince that you were enlightened were on Batgap, and you could convince those people that the moon was made of green cheese. :-) And again, I'm inviting anyone who disagrees with me about Jim's enlightened status, and who believes it, to chime in and agree with me. Didn't you NOTICE the last few times I mentioned this, and no one did? If you didn't, it might suggest that you have a learning diability. Just sayin'... :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: Oh salyavin808, I am incredibly sorry I have not given your's and Barry's and MJ's victimization the full respect, adoration and drama it deserves! Damn, were you ever spanked by mommy, or daddy? Should we add that to the list?? Did you ever drop a quarter and it rolled under a sofa, and you couldn't get at it? THAT'S going on the list TOO! Hey, are you political? If so, please send me the number of times YOUR CANDIDATE lost! I am so ON it! I bleed for you guys. Geez, the abuses and harm and just plain Medieval TORTURE you, and Barry, and MJ have suffered at the hands of the TMO and Maharishi!!! OMG, The Holocaust pales in comparison! MY VAST, UNENDING APOLOGIES TO ALL OF YOU HAPLESS, BROKEN SOULS!!! Good GOD, what was I thinking?!?! Cognitive dissonance. Fascinating. And almost completely unaware of it. All while considering himself enlightened. Hasn't it been fascinating to see the TMers' refusal to deal with the actual issue here, and their utter reliance on Kill the messenger demonization instead? I have to believe that the reason is that they are still so guruwhipped that they're AFRAID to say things about the TMO or Maharishi that will be perceived as negative. They are probably so superstitious that they think Bad Things will happen to them if they do. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seventhray27 wrote: Barry, Jim's enlightenment is parve. Meaning what does it matter,whether he is, or he isn't? It obviously matters a great deal to him. You can go either way with it. Of course you can. But my point is the same as it's ever been -- why on Earth would you choose to demean the concept of enlightenment by assuming that someone with Jimbo's posting history represents it? For example, I've never, ever claimed to be enlightened, but he's claimed I have. That's called lying. If you believe that Jimbo is enlightened, then you believe that the enlight- ened lie. Jimbo has also in the past ranted that the things he says are true by definition because he says them. The reasoning for this, one assumes, is that the enlightened have the ability to discern truth. That said, he has claimed that the Buddha -- someone who didn't believe in the concept of God -- said God is love. Doesn't that make you go a little WTF? :-) Don't get me wrong...Jim has the right to indulge in whatever narcissistic fantasies he wants to. It's just that in doing so he diminishes and embarrasses the entire history of the belief in enlightenment, so I give him shit about it, so he'll do more of it. He never fails to disappoint. :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I grew up, and moved on. Too bad you did not, though you can be lead through life however you choose. Yes, I AM ENLIGHTENED, BARRY, AND DON'T YOU **EVER** FORGET IT!:-) I *can't* forget it, Jimbo, because I never believed it in the first place. Neither did *anyone else* on this forum. The only people you've been able to convince that you were enlightened were on Batgap, and you could convince those people that the moon was made of green cheese. :-) And again, I'm inviting anyone who disagrees with me about Jim's enlightened status, and who believes it, to chime in and agree with me. Didn't you NOTICE the last few times I mentioned this, and no one did? If you didn't, it might suggest that you have a learning diability. Just sayin'... :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: Oh salyavin808, I am incredibly sorry I have not given your's and Barry's and MJ's victimization the full respect, adoration and drama it deserves! Damn, were you ever spanked by mommy, or daddy? Should we add that to the list?? Did you ever drop a quarter and it rolled under a sofa, and you couldn't get at it? THAT'S going on the list TOO! Hey, are you political? If so, please send me the number of times YOUR CANDIDATE lost! I am so ON it! I bleed for you guys. Geez, the abuses and harm and just plain Medieval TORTURE you, and Barry, and MJ have suffered at the hands of the TMO and Maharishi!!! OMG, The Holocaust pales in comparison! MY VAST, UNENDING APOLOGIES TO ALL OF YOU HAPLESS, BROKEN SOULS!!! Good GOD, what was I thinking?!?! Cognitive dissonance. Fascinating. And almost completely unaware of it. All while considering himself enlightened. Hasn't it been fascinating to see the TMers' refusal to deal with the actual issue here, and their utter reliance on Kill the messenger demonization instead? I have to believe that the reason is that they are still so guruwhipped that they're AFRAID to say things about the TMO or Maharishi that will be perceived as negative. They are probably so superstitious that they think Bad Things will happen to them if they do. :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
I'm out of the loop as to who is enlightened and who isn't - I don't even know the Doctor's real name - I thought he was the real Doctor Who. From: turquoiseb no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 9:48 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@... wrote: I grew up, and moved on. Too bad you did not, though you can be lead through life however you choose. Yes, I AM ENLIGHTENED, BARRY, AND DON'T YOU **EVER** FORGET IT!:-) I *can't* forget it, Jimbo, because I never believed it in the first place. Neither did *anyone else* on this forum. The only people you've been able to convince that you were enlightened were on Batgap, and you could convince those people that the moon was made of green cheese. :-) And again, I'm inviting anyone who disagrees with me about Jim's enlightened status, and who believes it, to chime in and agree with me. Didn't you NOTICE the last few times I mentioned this, and no one did? If you didn't, it might suggest that you have a learning diability. Just sayin'... :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: Oh salyavin808, I am incredibly sorry I have not given your's and Barry's and MJ's victimization the full respect, adoration and drama it deserves! Damn, were you ever spanked by mommy, or daddy? Should we add that to the list?? Did you ever drop a quarter and it rolled under a sofa, and you couldn't get at it? THAT'S going on the list TOO! Hey, are you political? If so, please send me the number of times YOUR CANDIDATE lost! I am so ON it! I bleed for you guys. Geez, the abuses and harm and just plain Medieval TORTURE you, and Barry, and MJ have suffered at the hands of the TMO and Maharishi!!! OMG, The Holocaust pales in comparison! MY VAST, UNENDING APOLOGIES TO ALL OF YOU HAPLESS, BROKEN SOULS!!! Good GOD, what was I thinking?!?! Cognitive dissonance. Fascinating. And almost completely unaware of it. All while considering himself enlightened. Hasn't it been fascinating to see the TMers' refusal to deal with the actual issue here, and their utter reliance on Kill the messenger demonization instead? I have to believe that the reason is that they are still so guruwhipped that they're AFRAID to say things about the TMO or Maharishi that will be perceived as negative. They are probably so superstitious that they think Bad Things will happen to them if they do. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
Dude, you are giving me WAY TOO MUCH CREDIT, regarding any demeaning of the concept of enlightenment, simply because my words may be seen by about 20 people, total, and that's generous, and second, more importantly, WHAT THE FUCK IS A CONCEPT OF ENLIGHTENMENT? Are you a moodmaker, or what... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seventhray27 wrote: Barry, Jim's enlightenment is parve. Meaning what does it matter,whether he is, or he isn't? It obviously matters a great deal to him. You can go either way with it. Of course you can. But my point is the same as it's ever been -- why on Earth would you choose to demean the concept of enlightenment by assuming that someone with Jimbo's posting history represents it? For example, I've never, ever claimed to be enlightened, but he's claimed I have. That's called lying. If you believe that Jimbo is enlightened, then you believe that the enlight- ened lie. Jimbo has also in the past ranted that the things he says are true by definition because he says them. The reasoning for this, one assumes, is that the enlightened have the ability to discern truth. That said, he has claimed that the Buddha -- someone who didn't believe in the concept of God -- said God is love. Doesn't that make you go a little WTF? :-) Don't get me wrong...Jim has the right to indulge in whatever narcissistic fantasies he wants to. It's just that in doing so he diminishes and embarrasses the entire history of the belief in enlightenment, so I give him shit about it, so he'll do more of it. He never fails to disappoint. :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I grew up, and moved on. Too bad you did not, though you can be lead through life however you choose. Yes, I AM ENLIGHTENED, BARRY, AND DON'T YOU **EVER** FORGET IT!:-) I *can't* forget it, Jimbo, because I never believed it in the first place. Neither did *anyone else* on this forum. The only people you've been able to convince that you were enlightened were on Batgap, and you could convince those people that the moon was made of green cheese. :-) And again, I'm inviting anyone who disagrees with me about Jim's enlightened status, and who believes it, to chime in and agree with me. Didn't you NOTICE the last few times I mentioned this, and no one did? If you didn't, it might suggest that you have a learning diability. Just sayin'... :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: Oh salyavin808, I am incredibly sorry I have not given your's and Barry's and MJ's victimization the full respect, adoration and drama it deserves! Damn, were you ever spanked by mommy, or daddy? Should we add that to the list?? Did you ever drop a quarter and it rolled under a sofa, and you couldn't get at it? THAT'S going on the list TOO! Hey, are you political? If so, please send me the number of times YOUR CANDIDATE lost! I am so ON it! I bleed for you guys. Geez, the abuses and harm and just plain Medieval TORTURE you, and Barry, and MJ have suffered at the hands of the TMO and Maharishi!!! OMG, The Holocaust pales in comparison! MY VAST, UNENDING APOLOGIES TO ALL OF YOU HAPLESS, BROKEN SOULS!!! Good GOD, what was I thinking?!?! Cognitive dissonance. Fascinating. And almost completely unaware of it. All while considering himself enlightened. Hasn't it been fascinating to see the TMers' refusal to deal with the actual issue here, and their utter reliance on Kill the messenger demonization instead? I have to believe that the reason is that they are still so guruwhipped that they're AFRAID to say things about the TMO or Maharishi that will be perceived as negative. They are probably so superstitious that they think Bad Things will happen to them if they do. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: snip I bleed for you guys. Geez, the abuses and harm and just plain Medieval TORTURE you, and Barry, and MJ have suffered at the hands of the TMO and Maharishi!!! OMG, The Holocaust pales in comparison! MY VAST, UNENDING APOLOGIES TO ALL OF YOU HAPLESS, BROKEN SOULS!!! Good GOD, what was I thinking?!?! Cognitive dissonance. Fascinating. And almost completely unaware of it. All while considering himself enlightened. Hasn't it been fascinating to see the TMers' refusal to deal with the actual issue here, and their utter reliance on Kill the messenger demonization instead? Yes, you probably can tell you're in a cult when you make excuses for the people ripping you off. I haven't seen anybody here making excuses for the people ripping them off. Did I miss some posts, or what? What I've found fascinating in this discussion is the *disproportion* between the gigantic fuss the three of you are making of the fact that the TMers haven't responded to salyavin's tale of woe the way you think we should have, and the minimal objections a couple of TMers have made to the griping. That disproportion is what DrD was satirizing and what I twitted Barry about. Not a thing wrong, as far as I'm concerned, with salyavin having brought up the fundraising on that course, or with the three of you griping about it. But you all seem to be even more outraged that the TMers haven't all chimed in and denounced the TMO than you've been over the original offense. Get a grip, boys. You don't need the explicit agreement of the TMers here to justify your disapproval of the Vedaland pitch. Or do you? Barry, as one would expect, is using all this as an excuse to go after his critics here. Salyavin and Michael don't seem to need to do that. I have to believe that the reason is that they are still so guruwhipped that they're AFRAID to say things about the TMO or Maharishi that will be perceived as negative. Well, no, Barry, you don't *have* to believe that. You *want* to believe that, because that's what fits the pattern you've already established in your mind, and you don't have the imagination to entertain any other possibilities, even if this one doesn't make sense. They are probably so superstitious that they think Bad Things will happen to them if they do. :-) We haven't heard at least the money goes to a good cause. Which I have heard a lot in the TMO when they raised some amount for something that never happened. But not rocking the boat for fear of incurring some sort of wrath from the course office or International seemed to be the main motivating factor to me. Can't have people unstressing and disturbing the other CPs. Could it possibly be that some of the CPs on that course were enjoying it and simply didn't *want* to spoil their experience by getting into an outraged frame of mind at that point, TMO or no TMO? Salyavin, to your knowledge, did anybody commit themselves to donate *during that course*? I ask because I always understood the dictum about not making major decisions while rounding to mean decisions that one would implement during the course, as opposed to decisions that one might or might not follow through on once one got home and came down from the spaciness. (The example the teachers always used was not to break up with your girlfriend or boyfriend while you were rounding. I think one time the example was not to call your stockbroker between rounds and tell them to sell all your investments.) For the record, the only sales pitches I recall being made during courses were for advanced techniques or the TM-Sidhis course. Since you couldn't *implement a decision to do either during the course, that wouldn't have gone against the no- decisions recommendation as I understood it. That and the weird idea that if the TMO does it then it must be right even if we don't understand it yet!
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
Who?? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson wrote: I'm out of the loop as to who is enlightened and who isn't - I don't even know the Doctor's real name - I thought he was the real Doctor Who. From: turquoiseb To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 9:48 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I grew up, and moved on. Too bad you did not, though you can be lead through life however you choose. Yes, I AM ENLIGHTENED, BARRY, AND DON'T YOU **EVER** FORGET IT!:-) I *can't* forget it, Jimbo, because I never believed it in the first place. Neither did *anyone else* on this forum. The only people you've been able to convince that you were enlightened were on Batgap, and you could convince those people that the moon was made of green cheese. :-) And again, I'm inviting anyone who disagrees with me about Jim's enlightened status, and who believes it, to chime in and agree with me. Didn't you NOTICE the last few times I mentioned this, and no one did? If you didn't, it might suggest that you have a learning diability. Just sayin'... :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: Oh salyavin808, I am incredibly sorry I have not given your's and Barry's and MJ's victimization the full respect, adoration and drama it deserves! Damn, were you ever spanked by mommy, or daddy? Should we add that to the list?? Did you ever drop a quarter and it rolled under a sofa, and you couldn't get at it? THAT'S going on the list TOO! Hey, are you political? If so, please send me the number of times YOUR CANDIDATE lost! I am so ON it! I bleed for you guys. Geez, the abuses and harm and just plain Medieval TORTURE you, and Barry, and MJ have suffered at the hands of the TMO and Maharishi!!! OMG, The Holocaust pales in comparison! MY VAST, UNENDING APOLOGIES TO ALL OF YOU HAPLESS, BROKEN SOULS!!! Good GOD, what was I thinking?!?! Cognitive dissonance. Fascinating. And almost completely unaware of it. All while considering himself enlightened. Hasn't it been fascinating to see the TMers' refusal to deal with the actual issue here, and their utter reliance on Kill the messenger demonization instead? I have to believe that the reason is that they are still so guruwhipped that they're AFRAID to say things about the TMO or Maharishi that will be perceived as negative. They are probably so superstitious that they think Bad Things will happen to them if they do. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I grew up, and moved on. Too bad you did not, though you can be lead through life however you choose. Yes, I AM ENLIGHTENED, BARRY, AND DON'T YOU **EVER** FORGET IT!:-) I *can't* forget it, Jimbo, because I never believed it in the first place. Neither did *anyone else* on this forum. The only people you've been able to convince that you were enlightened were on Batgap, and you could convince those people that the moon was made of green cheese. :-) And again, I'm inviting anyone who disagrees with me about Jim's enlightened status, and who believes it, to chime in and agree with me. (You might want to do a bit of revising of your syntax here, Barry.) Didn't you NOTICE the last few times I mentioned this, and no one did? If you didn't, it might suggest that you have a learning diability. Just sayin'... :-) At least one of us knows there's no way we could tell from DrD's posts whether he's enlightened--and doesn't *care* whether he is or not. That person does enjoy watching Barry freak out from having his buttons pushed over and over, though.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
You and I can go either way with it, Steve, but good *old* Barry I am afraid, cannot.:-) Button pusher became the pushed. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seventhray27 wrote: Barry, Jim's enlightenment is parve. Meaning what does it matter,whether he is, or he isn't? You can go either way with it. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I grew up, and moved on. Too bad you did not, though you can be lead through life however you choose. Yes, I AM ENLIGHTENED, BARRY, AND DON'T YOU **EVER** FORGET IT!:-) I *can't* forget it, Jimbo, because I never believed it in the first place. Neither did *anyone else* on this forum. The only people you've been able to convince that you were enlightened were on Batgap, and you could convince those people that the moon was made of green cheese. :-) And again, I'm inviting anyone who disagrees with me about Jim's enlightened status, and who believes it, to chime in and agree with me. Didn't you NOTICE the last few times I mentioned this, and no one did? If you didn't, it might suggest that you have a learning diability. Just sayin'... :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: Oh salyavin808, I am incredibly sorry I have not given your's and Barry's and MJ's victimization the full respect, adoration and drama it deserves! Damn, were you ever spanked by mommy, or daddy? Should we add that to the list?? Did you ever drop a quarter and it rolled under a sofa, and you couldn't get at it? THAT'S going on the list TOO! Hey, are you political? If so, please send me the number of times YOUR CANDIDATE lost! I am so ON it! I bleed for you guys. Geez, the abuses and harm and just plain Medieval TORTURE you, and Barry, and MJ have suffered at the hands of the TMO and Maharishi!!! OMG, The Holocaust pales in comparison! MY VAST, UNENDING APOLOGIES TO ALL OF YOU HAPLESS, BROKEN SOULS!!! Good GOD, what was I thinking?!?! Cognitive dissonance. Fascinating. And almost completely unaware of it. All while considering himself enlightened. Hasn't it been fascinating to see the TMers' refusal to deal with the actual issue here, and their utter reliance on Kill the messenger demonization instead? I have to believe that the reason is that they are still so guruwhipped that they're AFRAID to say things about the TMO or Maharishi that will be perceived as negative. They are probably so superstitious that they think Bad Things will happen to them if they do. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: I've never encountered any form of sales-pitch on ANY course during decades in the TMO. So far we only have your version of this. So you never taught 3rd night of checking which includes the sales pitch for a residence course as a mandatory part of it? Never taught a residence course which also included making a sales pitch for advance programs like the sidhis? Never attended any of the MANY fundraisers held at the bigger facilities that I both attended or ran for years? Never promoted Ayur veda or its many products at your TM center? Were you ever a teacher in the field? Selling programs was our total focus. The brochure version of TM that you pitch here only works on people without experience of the organization, like maybe someone at an intro lecture. If I had kept all the Telexes from National commanding me to pitch the next TM product through the next big campaign, I could turn them over and never need sketch paper for the rest of my life. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I can honestly say I went on a lot of residence courses, and was never asked to donate money, or purchase *anything*. Wasn't a perfect experience, but this rapaciousness you attribute to the reps of the TMO was just never present whenever I interacted with them. Not once, during major national courses, residence courses, or working for the TMO on staff, was I ever asked for donations, or to get the next big thing. This is some tape loop in your head, that does not match reality. And you know what they say, where there's smoke, there's fire...:-) Ah, so we imagined it all. Fascinating evasion. I've never encountered any form of sales-pitch on ANY course during decades in the TMO. So far we only have your version of this.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I bleed for you guys. Geez, the abuses and harm and just plain Medieval TORTURE you, and Barry, and MJ have suffered at the hands of the TMO and Maharishi!!! OMG, The Holocaust pales in comparison! MY VAST, UNENDING APOLOGIES TO ALL OF YOU HAPLESS, BROKEN SOULS!!! Good GOD, what was I thinking?!?! Cognitive dissonance. Fascinating. And almost completely unaware of it. All while considering himself enlightened. Hasn't it been fascinating to see the TMers' refusal to deal with the actual issue here, and their utter reliance on Kill the messenger demonization instead? Yes, you probably can tell you're in a cult when you make excuses for the people ripping you off. I haven't seen anybody here making excuses for the people ripping them off. Did I miss some posts, or what? Must have done. What I've found fascinating in this discussion is the *disproportion* between the gigantic fuss the three of you are making of the fact that the TMers haven't responded to salyavin's tale of woe the way you think we should have, and the minimal objections a couple of TMers have made to the griping. That disproportion is what DrD was satirizing and what I twitted Barry about. Gigantic fuss? Griping? I'm just trying to provoke a reaction as I'm curious as to what FFLers would have said and done at the time. It would hardly be a tale of woe to you if you had donated would it? I suspect this sort of belittling language comes from the same place as Nabby's refusal to accept that it even happened. So what would you have done Judy? Seriously, put yourself in my place, on a rounding course and suddenly on the receiving end of a slick PR pitch with no purpose other than to relieve you of $50,000 for something guaranteed never to happen by a so-called spiritual group you probably thought was the dogs bollocks up to that point. Not a thing wrong, as far as I'm concerned, with salyavin having brought up the fundraising on that course, or with the three of you griping about it. But you all seem to be even more outraged that the TMers haven't all chimed in and denounced the TMO than you've been over the original offense. I think you are dreaming here, as I've said most people kept quite and kept their heads down to save getting in trouble, like having a negative opinion is a bad thing. Could it possibly be that some of the CPs on that course were enjoying it and simply didn't *want* to spoil their experience by getting into an outraged frame of mind at that point, TMO or no TMO? Is that how people work? I don't think so, people would complain about the food or the heating in the flying room as loudly as they could. And, as I have pointed out, it was discussed over dinner. Mostly by my instigation and with most people either making excuses or refusing to get involved. Salyavin, to your knowledge, did anybody commit themselves to donate *during that course*? No idea, but most of us were there for ages and if Doug Henning hadn't inconsiderately gone and died a week or so after the pitch maybe they would have. The smarmy PR guy had a lot of phone numbers of the wealthy on the course who had expressed an interest, not sure whether my deconstruction of his dividend projections due to misleading questions in the public research put anyone off, I sure hope so. I used to work as a media analyst for a PR company, I knew all the tricks. Man, I must have driven everyone crazy on that course! Whatever the subject I'd have a well argued alternative. When the jyotishees came to rip everyone off, sorry - to do thoughtful and accurate personality readings and life projections - it was me who pointed out he was telling everyone the same things, and a load of crap at that! I got everyone on our table at dinner deciding he must just be a bad jyotishee but he was billed as Marshy's favourite! What a joker.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
Barry stated, Nabby, what on Earth gives you the impression that
anyone here believes *anything* you say, let alone
anything you say about the TMO and Maharishi?
I don't know Nabby.
But from what I've read of Barry, I just might believe Nabby over Barry.
But probably to Barry, I'm not considered as anyone. Thus far, Barry's
hypocrisy is quite evident to this non-anyone outsider.
My involvement was with a different movement than the TMO. After leaving my
former group ('cult') and experiencing the lies and us/them thinking and
tactics of certain anti-cultists...I'm not sure which is worse. One thing for
sure, the anti-cultist's hypocrisies do little to support any integrity they
might have.
Like cultisits though, not all anti-cultists fall into the hypocrisy category.
*
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote:
Just so this doesn't get buried inside a topic many
people weren't reading, here it is with a new title,
and under a new thread.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote:
What makes you think that this negatively charged tone
is in THEM? It seems to me that a large number of people
*project* such things ONTO the TM critics, because they're
heavily attached to Maharishi and TM, and *their* buttons
got pushed. They're experiencing emotions inside themselves
that they perceive as negative, so they project the source
of that perceived negativity onto the critic.
To expand upon this, Share, here's what I saw happen
in this thread about the fundraising for Vedaland.
Based upon what Michael and Salyavin have said about
this incident, it seems clear that the TM organization
not only was guilty of selling shares in a venture they
knew was not going to happen because Doug was dying,
they did so *on long-term residence courses*, sending
people to solicit partnerships/donations from people
who were rounding, and thus had been instructed to
not make any serious decisions while rounding.
OK, that strikes me as a pretty big WTF moment.
And so far, in my quick re-read of the thread, it seems
that other than Michael, Salyavin and myself, no one
from the still-loyal-to-TM camp has really commented
*on the issue itself*. Buck came the closest.
Most others have been playing one form or another of
Kill the messenger, either suggesting that something
is wrong with Michael or the other critics, or that
something was wrong with their tone, that it was
negative.
Here's what I think.
The negativity is in the Kill the messenger types.
They heard something *that they didn't want to hear*.
It caused cognitive dissonance in them. They knew that
if they dealt with it directly and said what this news
made them *feel* about the organization they've been
part of for so long, and said it honestly, they'd be
perceived by other TBs as negative. So they stayed
as far away from the real issue as possible.
Instead they projected the inner turmoil they were
feeling about the issue onto the people who *were*
talking about the issue, and tried to turn the thread
into talking about *them* instead. Classic Kill the
messenger, and classic cult.
You seem to be full of advice today on how Michael or
others could clean up their negatively charged tone.
Well, here's some advice from me. Try not to project
the button-pushed turmoil inside yourself onto other
people, and lash out at them rather than dealing with
what they said.
It's not whether Michael is outraged over this issue.
That's fairly obvious. The bigger question is, Why
aren't you?
How 'bout it, TM-supporters? Take this issue and discuss
it *AS* issue, no personalities, and no attempts at
well-poisoning and slander.
Please explain how what the TM did in this case can be
seen as OK, legal, or benevolent. Please explain why
you still feel the need to support them or defend them,
if that's what you wind up doing. But talk about the
issue *itself*, not the people who brought it up.
We'll wait...
Suggestions for possible discussion points?
- Did you ever experience, while on rounding courses,
representatives of the TMO pitching you on things
that cost money? You know, like the next big course
you just had to attend, or the next technique you
just had to have, or the next Maharishi-add-on
product you just had to buy, be it Ayurveda or S-V
houses?
- If so, how do you reconcile this fairly obvious
attempt to get you to spend more money or donate more
money with the clear instructions you were given at
the start of every rounding course, Don't make any
major decisions while you are here?
- What *is* it about the TM technique that makes it
100% positive when done as advertised, 20 minutes
twice a day, but that makes it so powerful during
rounding courses that you have
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up - to Jim
Jim...are you serious when you say you are enlightened? When I've read a poster on FFL claim enlightenment, I've always taken it as a sarcasm. Do certain people on FFL believe they have reached enlightenment? *** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@... wrote: LOL - Gotcha!! ...and I told you I had a naughty side, but you just don't listen, do ya?...Let's try it again -- HEY BARRY, I AM ENLIGHTENED, AND DON'T YOU **EVER** FORGET IT!!!:-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I grew up, and moved on. Too bad you did not, though you can be lead through life however you choose. Yes, I AM ENLIGHTENED, BARRY, AND DON'T YOU **EVER** FORGET IT!:-) I *can't* forget it, Jimbo, because I never believed it in the first place. Neither did *anyone else* on this forum. The only people you've been able to convince that you were enlightened were on Batgap, and you could convince those people that the moon was made of green cheese. :-) And again, I'm inviting anyone who disagrees with me about Jim's enlightened status, and who believes it, to chime in and agree with me. Didn't you NOTICE the last few times I mentioned this, and no one did? If you didn't, it might suggest that you have a learning diability. Just sayin'... :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: Oh salyavin808, I am incredibly sorry I have not given your's and Barry's and MJ's victimization the full respect, adoration and drama it deserves! Damn, were you ever spanked by mommy, or daddy? Should we add that to the list?? Did you ever drop a quarter and it rolled under a sofa, and you couldn't get at it? THAT'S going on the list TOO! Hey, are you political? If so, please send me the number of times YOUR CANDIDATE lost! I am so ON it! I bleed for you guys. Geez, the abuses and harm and just plain Medieval TORTURE you, and Barry, and MJ have suffered at the hands of the TMO and Maharishi!!! OMG, The Holocaust pales in comparison! MY VAST, UNENDING APOLOGIES TO ALL OF YOU HAPLESS, BROKEN SOULS!!! Good GOD, what was I thinking?!?! Cognitive dissonance. Fascinating. And almost completely unaware of it. All while considering himself enlightened. Hasn't it been fascinating to see the TMers' refusal to deal with the actual issue here, and their utter reliance on Kill the messenger demonization instead? I have to believe that the reason is that they are still so guruwhipped that they're AFRAID to say things about the TMO or Maharishi that will be perceived as negative. They are probably so superstitious that they think Bad Things will happen to them if they do. :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
I was thinking about all this and I can't ever remember anything like the Croatia course where they were pitching Vedaland - I mean I never encountered anything like that on a rounding course - unless you include the sidhis - I did hear sales pitches for that, tho I would not have characterized it as a sales pitch at the time. Interesting how after all these years I still didn't consider enticements to buy adjuncts to the TM program like the sidhis to be a sales pitch. The one exception was on the Taste of Utopia course when Maha was pitching his latest project (I don't remember what it was) but he was asking for millions of dollars that night - there was a lot of talk about it at meals the next day. From: curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 11:34 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: I've never encountered any form of sales-pitch on ANY course during decades in the TMO. So far we only have your version of this. So you never taught 3rd night of checking which includes the sales pitch for a residence course as a mandatory part of it? Never taught a residence course which also included making a sales pitch for advance programs like the sidhis? Never attended any of the MANY fundraisers held at the bigger facilities that I both attended or ran for years? Never promoted Ayur veda or its many products at your TM center? Were you ever a teacher in the field? Selling programs was our total focus. The brochure version of TM that you pitch here only works on people without experience of the organization, like maybe someone at an intro lecture. If I had kept all the Telexes from National commanding me to pitch the next TM product through the next big campaign, I could turn them over and never need sketch paper for the rest of my life. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I can honestly say I went on a lot of residence courses, and was never asked to donate money, or purchase *anything*. Wasn't a perfect experience, but this rapaciousness you attribute to the reps of the TMO was just never present whenever I interacted with them. Not once, during major national courses, residence courses, or working for the TMO on staff, was I ever asked for donations, or to get the next big thing. This is some tape loop in your head, that does not match reality. And you know what they say, where there's smoke, there's fire...:-) Ah, so we imagined it all. Fascinating evasion. I've never encountered any form of sales-pitch on ANY course during decades in the TMO. So far we only have your version of this.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: I've never encountered any form of sales-pitch on ANY course during decades in the TMO. So far we only have your version of this. So you never taught 3rd night of checking which includes the sales pitch for a residence course as a mandatory part of it? The issue is sales pitches *on rounding courses*, Curtis. The complaint (I guess you missed it) is that you're told not to make major decisions (such as purchasing what is being sold) while you're rounding. Never taught a residence course which also included making a sales pitch for advance programs like the sidhis? This is the only one of your questions that's relevant to the issue. But of course you can't *apply and be accepted for and then pay for* these advanced programs on a residence course. All that would have to take place after the course was over. So whether a pitch for the programs violates the no decisions while rounding recommendation depends on whether that means decisions that would be *implemented* while you were rounding (which is how I always understood it), as opposed to decisions you could only implement once the course was over (and had presumably had a chance to give the decision some non-spacey thought). Never attended any of the MANY fundraisers held at the bigger facilities that I both attended or ran for years? Never promoted Ayur veda or its many products at your TM center? Were you ever a teacher in the field? Selling programs was our total focus. The brochure version of TM that you pitch here only works on people without experience of the organization, like maybe someone at an intro lecture. If I had kept all the Telexes from National commanding me to pitch the next TM product through the next big campaign, I could turn them over and never need sketch paper for the rest of my life. Again, the question isn't whether the TMO makes sales pitches; obviously no one would claim that it does not. It's whether the TMO has made sales pitches at an inappropriate time and place.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: I've never encountered any form of sales-pitch on ANY course during decades in the TMO. So far we only have your version of this. So you never taught 3rd night of checking which includes the sales pitch for a residence course as a mandatory part of it? The issue is sales pitches *on rounding courses*, Curtis. The complaint (I guess you missed it) is that you're told not to make major decisions (such as purchasing what is being sold) while you're rounding. OK so only my residence course and fundraiser held on rounding courses apply. I took Nabby's word any to mean any. Never taught a residence course which also included making a sales pitch for advance programs like the sidhis? This is the only one of your questions that's relevant to the issue. But of course you can't *apply and be accepted for and then pay for* these advanced programs on a residence course. All that would have to take place after the course was over. So whether a pitch for the programs violates the no decisions while rounding recommendation depends on whether that means decisions that would be *implemented* while you were rounding (which is how I always understood it), as opposed to decisions you could only implement once the course was over (and had presumably had a chance to give the decision some non-spacey thought). Never attended any of the MANY fundraisers held at the bigger facilities that I both attended or ran for years? Never promoted Ayur veda or its many products at your TM center? Were you ever a teacher in the field? Selling programs was our total focus. The brochure version of TM that you pitch here only works on people without experience of the organization, like maybe someone at an intro lecture. If I had kept all the Telexes from National commanding me to pitch the next TM product through the next big campaign, I could turn them over and never need sketch paper for the rest of my life. Again, the question isn't whether the TMO makes sales pitches; obviously no one would claim that it does not. It's whether the TMO has made sales pitches at an inappropriate time and place. Thanks for filling in the context for the full discussion. People did buy Ayur Vedic products and advanced techniques while rounding on courses I've been on. I think the prohibition about making decisions does not apply to any decision to get deeper into the movement in the movement mindset. That is always considered to be a life-supporting decision, so there is no chance of making a mistake because you were unstressing. But it is commendable that the movement would even give this advice at all because even if we drop the idea of stress release as they see it as I have, the state you are in is one of heightened suggestibility and this is sound advise. But with the exemption of decisions that the movement can profit from, there was an element of dubious ethics in play. At the CNL in DC they held regular fundraisers on the last day of residence courses pitching this and that and getting people to stand up and make public donations. Then they would chase the people around after the course to get them to make good on the decision they had made on the course but often regretted later.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
I noted the same about the link, but know the song and thus moved to Bob's other link of the book. What a great book; a great offering with wonderful drawings. The pages turn for you, which is very cool. That is a pertinent link to what Curtis posted and I have saved it to peruse. From: obbajeeba no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 6:28 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up FFL, the endless battle of who did what, and how come I am not fucking enlightened yet. Hey Bob, the link you put at the end of your post below on this thread, it does not work if one lives in the States. I love Purple rain to go along with those purple high stretch stiletto boots, please share a link we can see from here, the States.. Emily would most likely appreciate it too! The mention in a post to the Turq, I do not live in Fairfield, and not in Manhattan (deduct my non response of 72nd and 4th)(nor the L train from Willamsburg) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhgjEObtrWE Oh,Give me a ticket on an Air-o-plane. you now have minus three areas I may or may not live,at certain times. :) I live in my skin, the blanket of FFL. You guys and ladies, are my warmth. :) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bob Price wrote: MILAREPA once sent three of his devotees, each with a blanket, into the mountains of Tibet with the instruction to not return until they had mastered their inner heat. The monks found an ice field, laid out their blankets, and began to mediate; windstorms and angry blizzards pummeled the three adherents and covered them with ice and snow, but the three continued to mediate without interruption. Finally, after ten years had passed, one of the monks opened his eyes and glared at the monk beside him and angrily shouted: You're sitting on my blanket! The angry monk then closed his eyes and the three continued to mediate. More wind, snow and ice storms hit the mountain and froze the monks solid, but still they continued their practice without interruption. After another ten years had passed the second monk opened his eyes and shouted: No I'm not! The second angry monk then closed his eyes again, and the three continued to mediate peacefully. More blizzards and wind storms hit the mountain and covered the three monks with freezing rain and snow; the howling wind was deafening, and at times the three mediating monks were encased in solid blocks of ice, but they remained immoveable and continued to mediate uninterrupted. Finally, after another ten years had passed (making it thirty years since they had arrived), the third monk suddenly jumped up, grabbed his blanket, and ran down the mountain, back to the monastery where MILAREPA was waiting. MILAREPA asked the devotee: Why have you returned, have you mastered your inner heat? And the third monk answered: No master, I'm back because I got sick and tired of all the bickering and fighting! For OBBA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bydB3-k-qU From: turquoiseb To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 9:44:21 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up Just so this doesn't get buried inside a topic many people weren't reading, here it is with a new title, and under a new thread. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb  wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb  wrote: What makes you think that this negatively charged tone is in THEM? It seems to me that a large number of people *project* such things ONTO the TM critics, because they're heavily attached to Maharishi and TM, and *their* buttons got pushed. They're experiencing emotions inside themselves that they perceive as negative, so they project the source of that perceived negativity onto the critic. To expand upon this, Share, here's what I saw happen in this thread about the fundraising for Vedaland. Based upon what Michael and Salyavin have said about this incident, it seems clear that the TM organization not only was guilty of selling shares in a venture they knew was not going to happen because Doug was dying, they did so *on long-term residence courses*, sending people to solicit partnerships/donations from people who were rounding, and thus had been instructed to not make any serious decisions while rounding. OK, that strikes me as a pretty big WTF moment. And so far, in my quick re-read of the thread, it seems that other than Michael, Salyavin and myself, no one from the still-loyal-to-TM camp has really commented *on the issue itself*. Buck came the closest. Most others
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up - to Jim
It is anything but a static state, first experienced as always being grounded in the Self, or permanent silence. Once a person is established in Silence within, the enlightenment begins to infect everything else. The Silence within can no longer be overshadowed, destroyed, or disrupted. Sounds crazy, huh?:-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Carol wrote: Jim...are you serious when you say you are enlightened? When I've read a poster on FFL claim enlightenment, I've always taken it as a sarcasm. Do certain people on FFL believe they have reached enlightenment? *** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: LOL - Gotcha!! ...and I told you I had a naughty side, but you just don't listen, do ya?...Let's try it again -- HEY BARRY, I AM ENLIGHTENED, AND DON'T YOU **EVER** FORGET IT!!!:-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I grew up, and moved on. Too bad you did not, though you can be lead through life however you choose. Yes, I AM ENLIGHTENED, BARRY, AND DON'T YOU **EVER** FORGET IT!:-) I *can't* forget it, Jimbo, because I never believed it in the first place. Neither did *anyone else* on this forum. The only people you've been able to convince that you were enlightened were on Batgap, and you could convince those people that the moon was made of green cheese. :-) And again, I'm inviting anyone who disagrees with me about Jim's enlightened status, and who believes it, to chime in and agree with me. Didn't you NOTICE the last few times I mentioned this, and no one did? If you didn't, it might suggest that you have a learning diability. Just sayin'... :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: Oh salyavin808, I am incredibly sorry I have not given your's and Barry's and MJ's victimization the full respect, adoration and drama it deserves! Damn, were you ever spanked by mommy, or daddy? Should we add that to the list?? Did you ever drop a quarter and it rolled under a sofa, and you couldn't get at it? THAT'S going on the list TOO! Hey, are you political? If so, please send me the number of times YOUR CANDIDATE lost! I am so ON it! I bleed for you guys. Geez, the abuses and harm and just plain Medieval TORTURE you, and Barry, and MJ have suffered at the hands of the TMO and Maharishi!!! OMG, The Holocaust pales in comparison! MY VAST, UNENDING APOLOGIES TO ALL OF YOU HAPLESS, BROKEN SOULS!!! Good GOD, what was I thinking?!?! Cognitive dissonance. Fascinating. And almost completely unaware of it. All while considering himself enlightened. Hasn't it been fascinating to see the TMers' refusal to deal with the actual issue here, and their utter reliance on Kill the messenger demonization instead? I have to believe that the reason is that they are still so guruwhipped that they're AFRAID to say things about the TMO or Maharishi that will be perceived as negative. They are probably so superstitious that they think Bad Things will happen to them if they do. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Challenge: Talk about the issue, not the people who brought it up
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: I bleed for you guys. Geez, the abuses and harm and just plain Medieval TORTURE you, and Barry, and MJ have suffered at the hands of the TMO and Maharishi!!! OMG, The Holocaust pales in comparison! MY VAST, UNENDING APOLOGIES TO ALL OF YOU HAPLESS, BROKEN SOULS!!! Good GOD, what was I thinking?!?! Cognitive dissonance. Fascinating. And almost completely unaware of it. All while considering himself enlightened. Hasn't it been fascinating to see the TMers' refusal to deal with the actual issue here, and their utter reliance on Kill the messenger demonization instead? Yes, you probably can tell you're in a cult when you make excuses for the people ripping you off. I haven't seen anybody here making excuses for the people ripping them off. Did I miss some posts, or what? Must have done. Oh, could you quote some for me, please? Or at least paraphrase? What I've found fascinating in this discussion is the *disproportion* between the gigantic fuss the three of you are making of the fact that the TMers haven't responded to salyavin's tale of woe the way you think we should have, and the minimal objections a couple of TMers have made to the griping. That disproportion is what DrD was satirizing and what I twitted Barry about. Gigantic fuss? Griping? I'm just trying to provoke a reaction as I'm curious as to what FFLers would have said and done at the time. It's mostly Barry making the gigantic fuss, but you've contributed. It would hardly be a tale of woe to you if you had donated would it? Huh? I suspect this sort of belittling language comes from the same place as Nabby's refusal to accept that it even happened. You'd suspect wrong. I don't doubt your story. So what would you have done Judy? Seriously, put yourself in my place, on a rounding course and suddenly on the receiving end of a slick PR pitch with no purpose other than to relieve you of $50,000 for something guaranteed never to happen by a so-called spiritual group you probably thought was the dogs bollocks up to that point. Hard to say since I wasn't there and can't be sure how the pitch would have come across to me. But I got turned off on the TMO probably within a month of beginning TM when I attended a celebration at my local TM center (and that was before my first residence course, so the dog's bollocks situation you describe wouldn't have applied to me--I'd already decided that the TMO sucked). My guess is that I'd have ignored it, which is what I've done with almost all the sales pitches I've ever had from the TMO, during rounding or otherwise (only sales pitches I experienced during rounding were for advanced programs). Plus the fact that at no time when I was taking rounding courses would I have had $50,000 of which to be relieved! It simply wouldn't have been a big blip on my radar screen. Just more silly TMO blah-blah-blah, tune it out. Vedaland was a ridiculous notion to start with even when Henning was still in full cry. Not a thing wrong, as far as I'm concerned, with salyavin having brought up the fundraising on that course, or with the three of you griping about it. But you all seem to be even more outraged that the TMers haven't all chimed in and denounced the TMO than you've been over the original offense. I think you are dreaming here, as I've said most people kept quite and kept their heads down to save getting in trouble, like having a negative opinion is a bad thing. Well, but isn't this one of the things you've been outraged about? Could it possibly be that some of the CPs on that course were enjoying it and simply didn't *want* to spoil their experience by getting into an outraged frame of mind at that point, TMO or no TMO? Is that how people work? I don't think so, people would complain about the food or the heating in the flying room as loudly as they could. Yeah, but those things are relatively trivial, not some kind of major betrayal. Bitching and moaning is one thing, outrage is quite another. And, as I have pointed out, it was discussed over dinner. Mostly by my instigation and with most people either making excuses or refusing to get involved. That would be in accord with my suggestion, though, that folks didn't want to ruin their rounding experience by getting caught up in serious outrage. Salyavin, to your knowledge, did anybody commit themselves to donate *during that course*? No idea, but most of us were there for ages and
