Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
On 9/16/2011 12:27 AM, arabus...@austin.rr.com wrote: ...although the books by Piston and Rimsky-Korsakov'll do in a pinch! Actually these days I find that for notational information as well as range information and playing techniques, Andrew Stiller's Handbook of Instrumentation to be much better than any books on orchestration, which seem to discuss which instruments work well together and which don't rather than discussing the technical details such as whether an instrument is notated with an octave displacement or not. Stiller's book is my go-to reference when I need specific information about an instrument. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
There is a great little book, 'Orchestral Technique' by Gordon Jacob too. Rimsky Korsakov is available online: http://www.garritan.com/index.php?option=com_wrapperview=wrapperItemid=34 and a Jazz arranging course by (our own!) wonderful Chuck Israels: http://www.garritan.com/index.php?option=com_wrapperview=wrapperItemid=41 Steve P. On 16 Sep 2011, at 11:35, David H. Bailey wrote: On 9/16/2011 12:27 AM, arabus...@austin.rr.com wrote: ...although the books by Piston and Rimsky-Korsakov'll do in a pinch! Actually these days I find that for notational information as well as range information and playing techniques, Andrew Stiller's Handbook of Instrumentation to be much better than any books on orchestration, which seem to discuss which instruments work well together and which don't rather than discussing the technical details such as whether an instrument is notated with an octave displacement or not. Stiller's book is my go-to reference when I need specific information about an instrument. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
At 6:35 AM -0400 9/16/11, David H. Bailey wrote: On 9/16/2011 12:27 AM, arabus...@austin.rr.com wrote: ...although the books by Piston and Rimsky-Korsakov'll do in a pinch! Actually these days I find that for notational information as well as range information and playing techniques, Andrew Stiller's Handbook of Instrumentation to be much better than any books on orchestration, which seem to discuss which instruments work well together and which don't rather than discussing the technical details such as whether an instrument is notated with an octave displacement or not. Stiller's book is my go-to reference when I need specific information about an instrument. Rimsky's book definitely is of that type, and really amazing in trying to understand the late 19th century orchestrator's mind. It's what I'd call more of a Stage Two orchestration book, that goes well beyond just the ranges and transpositions (the mechanics of it) and into the actual use (the artistry of it). I'm not that familiar with Piston. But of course any first-semester orchestration course has to spend hours on the ranges and transpositions, while in my Vocal-Choral Arranging class I have the students actually ARRANGING short exercises from day one. And I certainly agree about Andrew's book, although I made the mistake of buying it on disk and would MUCH rather have it sitting ready to pick up in my bookcase. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
On 9/16/2011 2:17 PM, John Howell wrote: [snip] And I certainly agree about Andrew's book, although I made the mistake of buying it on disk and would MUCH rather have it sitting ready to pick up in my bookcase. I value it so much, I bought it twice -- once in paper form and then as soon as it was released on disk, I bought that and moved it to my computer and now have it on my iPad for quick reference even when I'm not near my computer or office. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:17 PM, John Howell john.how...@vt.edu wrote: familiar with Piston. But of course any first-semester orchestration course has to spend hours on the ranges and transpositions, while in my Vocal-Choral Arranging class I have the students actually ARRANGING short exercises from day one. I am still appalled at people in music at advanced stages (including one conductor at a very advanced stage) who think that tuba sounds an octave lower than written. It IS a bit confusing for orchestration beginners, since contrabassoon and doublebass (the corresponding contrabass instruments in woodwinds and strings) both sound 8ba, but no one ever said life would be consistent. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
At 4:01 PM -0400 9/16/11, Raymond Horton wrote: On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:17 PM, John Howell john.how...@vt.edu wrote: familiar with Piston. But of course any first-semester orchestration course has to spend hours on the ranges and transpositions, while in my Vocal-Choral Arranging class I have the students actually ARRANGING short exercises from day one. I am still appalled at people in music at advanced stages (including one conductor at a very advanced stage) who think that tuba sounds an octave lower than written. It IS a bit confusing for orchestration beginners, since contrabassoon and doublebass (the corresponding contrabass instruments in woodwinds and strings) both sound 8ba, but no one ever said life would be consistent. I haven't run into that, but I'm equally appalled at the otherwise good composers or arrangers who don't understand that the relationship between euphonium and tuba (in band transcriptions of orchestral music) is NOT the same as the relationship between cellos and basses in an orchestra. Sure, the tubas can PLAY the low notes that the string basses play, but they don't fill the same musical function when they're groveling down there! The use of Eb and BBb tubas is also something too many arrangers are ignorant of (and that's really a better analog of cello and bass), but it's never safe to assume that a band will have both available. (Says I who just moved back from bass trombone to Eb tuba because that's what our band needs this Fall; our terrific tubist from last Spring and Summer is now a Freshman music major at Indiana.) John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
At 9:40 AM -0500 9/14/11, Patrick Sheehan wrote: My question is: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. And, does this bother anyone else, and do you agree that it should be abolished? Hi, Patrick. Although I'm not a pianist, I understand your problem, and it's a problem that every accompanist faces. Which is why they simply have to suck it up and learn to read the darned clef!! To set the record straight, tenor parts have NEVER been printed in bass clef most of the time, with the single exception of hymn-style publications with both soprano and alto parts on a single staff and tenor and bass parts on a single staff. And we all know that creates its own problems, with the tenor part sticking up and running into verses 4 and 5!! In fact historically tenor parts were written in a tenor C-clef, with middle C on the 4th line up. So one could make a good argument that the tenor G-clef comes closest to that historical method of writing, since there is only a single line or space difference between them. But we really have to go further back in history to understand why the system of 9 movable clefs (yes, NINE! with C, F, and G clefs located in 9 different positions on the staff!!!) developed in the first place, and continued in use for quite literally centuries. The staff, after all, is nothing but a hugely-simplified graph, and the clefs simply label the vertical axis of that graph, and can be placed on ANY line at all. The goal was quite simple, really: to keep the notes within the staff so the scribes wouldn't have to turn their hands at an awkward angle and risk smearing the ink in order to write in ledger lines. When Guido d'Arezzo invented the first chant notation in the early 11th century he used two clefs, the letter C representing middle C and the letter F representing the F a 5th below. (The G clef didn't come into use until the 15th century, and was used only for parts intended for choirboys, known in England as trebles!) From the first introduction of music printing in 1501 through the beginning of the 20th century, the system of 9 movable clefs continued in use for exactly that same reason. Student learned it, composers used it, and musicians read it. Bach did not write for woodwind or stringed instruments as transposing instruments--a practice introduced in the later 18th century and fully developed in the 19th--but in concert pitch using tenor, alto, mezzo-soprano and soprano C-clefs. And Brahms was still writing his chorus music using soprano, alto, and tenor C-clefs, plus bass clef, just as Bach did.. Nadia Boulanger was still teaching the movable clefs as late as the mid-20th century, because one has to read them in order to read any early music in the original. It is only we Americans--and of course pianists!!!--who have never been taught to read clefs that are routinely used by other instrumentalists. So my gentle suggestion would be to buckle down, get yourself a good score-reading book to work through, and just learn to read the tenor C-clef. You are NOT going to overturn a thousand years of tradition, used by virtually all publishers and understood quite well by all singers, just to make your job a little easier! All the best, John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
At 9/14/2011 10:13 PM, Scott wrote: As for my personal tastes, having performed pieces ranging from the medieval to the modern, my first choice would of course be the tenor clef. But, when forced to make a choice between the bass clef and the treble 8 clef, I very much prefer reading the treble clef. I think most tenors would agree with me. I agree. But, as a bass who is required to sing tenor sometimes, I prefer the tenor part in the bass clef since the treble clef is not as familiar to me for singing. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
At 5:22 PM -1000 9/14/11, Bruce Kau wrote: I think as a composer, you need to consider how your piece will be performed, and make it easier for the performer to understand, whether or not they are reading for sight-singing or not. The less time spent explaining everything, the better for the director. While I agree with everything Bruce (and most others) said, it's only fair to point out that the original post was a complaint that the tenor G-clef is difficult for the ACCOMPANIST to read, not the singers. My answer to that is that it's a skill an accompanist simply has to master. What actually needs to be played in performance is always reduced to a 2-staff piano (or organ) score, so that should be no problem. But reading the voice parts in rehearsal is simply a part of the skills needed by an effective accompanist. The field of collaborative pianist, which includes accompanying and much more, is expanding and there are now schools that offer Masters and Doctorates in it, but it does take an expanded menu of skills in order to be good at it. So dig in and develop those skills. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
At 12:18 PM -0700 9/14/11, Ryan wrote: I think part of the issue is that treble clef is used with the properties of the treble8. There's no distinction made between the two and the tenor voice is essentially treated as a transposing instrument (sounding an octave lower). That practice is used numerous times for solo tenor voices in art songs and even in opera scores. As someone else mentioned, solo music suitable for EITHER sopranos or tenors is quite often published for high voice without other specifications. And yes, a plain treble clef was used for a long time to denote tenor voice parts, and was in effect a transposing clef, but everyone knew it and it didn't bother anyone. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
Apologies for not citing the writer, but apparently I didn't save the post I had intended to. Just a small correction for someone regarding the labels usually used for the 9 movable clefs. C on the bottom line is usually called the Soprano Clef. That's the clef Bach used for his soprano voice parts and sometimes for his violin parts, as well as the right hand parts of his keyboard music fairly often. The C on the second line is usually called the mezzo-soprano clef, used mainly for voices in a slightly lower range, and used by Bach for the various d'amore woodwinds, often pitched in A. And the G clef first turns up in 15th century sacred music on parts intended for boys (pueri), not in baroque violin parts. In fact you may have been thinking of the so-called French Violin clef, with G on the bottom line, which in fact was used more often for flute parts than for violin parts. The trend has been toward simplification, with some efforts at simplification defying the use of only treble or bass clef even today. The ranges of horns and some saxes are difficult to notate in concert-pitch scores using G or F clefs, since they actually span a range that's perfect for one of the C clefs. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
Raymond Horton wrote: I do recall a small publishing company (name forgotten) in the 1980's that put out some SATB church anthems printed with Treb,Treb,Bs,Bs clefs, and it WAS particularly easy to play those on piano (these particular anthems had conservative ranges, so the leger lines were not excessive) but those publications would be considered an aberration in any case. As a frequent rehearsal accompanist, I've had the opposite experience. SATB on four staves with the tenor on treble-8vb is so standard that I'm used to it and playing the four parts is second nature. Every now and then I'll stumble upon a solo ensemble with two basses and two women, and when I try to play those I'm constantly screwing up because my brain wants the upper bass clef to be a treble-8vb clef. I think the main reason I was sympathizing with the original poster is that I remember reading some late letters of Arnold Schoenberg written during the time he was composing his final (and unfinished) opera Moses und Aron. He complained about the (new) 8ba treble clef, said that he found it distracting to try to write in it and said he would have to write the tenor part initially in the traditional tenor clef and change it later. (I am paraphrasing after reading this in 1975, but I think I have it for the most part). Well, I suppose it depends on what you're used to. My experience is overwhelmingly choral/vocal, and I only occasionally dabble in orchestra. Perhaps I shouldn't admit it on this list, but when I write for a string quartet, I always put the viola on a treble-8vb clef while I'm working on it and then move it afterward. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
Ryan wrote: I think part of the issue is that treble clef is used with the properties of the treble8. There's no distinction made between the two and the tenor voice is essentially treated as a transposing instrument (sounding an octave lower). That practice is used numerous times for solo tenor voices in art songs and even in opera scores. It's true that this practice is not uncommon, but some follow-up about opera scores: I can't recall it mentioned in this thread yet, but there are various ways to indicate that a treble clef sounds 8vb below. The little 8 below the clef I think is a relatively modern development, and I think it's only with the advent of digital engraving that it has really become standard. Much more common in opera scores is the treble clef with a pair of squiggles to the right that look like a shorthand bracket. This is standard in Ricordi's scores and variations are used by other publishers. (It's also what I routinely use when I'm hand-writing for tenor.) Other publishers use just the plain unadorned treble clef, trusting you to know whether the voice is male or female. I haven't examined carefully -- I'm away from home now and can't check my scores -- but my general sense is these tend to be the English and German publishers. One of them is G Schirmer, whose opera scores are now the most commonly used in the United States, which I think leads us to imagine it's more standard even in opera scores than it is. G Schirmer re-copied most of its opera vocal scores, but some are adapted from the original plates from Ricordi/Breitkopf/Novello. The treble-8vb clef for tenor is one way to tell at a glance which it is. In general, Schirmer's own editions are less accurate, and a couple of the standards are quite bad (eg, Traviata, Pagliacci). Indeed, this reminds me. Near the beginning of Pagliacci there is a stray line for chorus tenors which is not clearly labeled. Since it's in treble clef with no further indication, many an amateur company has rehearsed it for sopranos before someone notices the error from a recording. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
At 1:02 PM -0700 9/15/11, Mark D Lew wrote: I can't recall it mentioned in this thread yet, but there are various ways to indicate that a treble clef sounds 8vb below. The little 8 below the clef I think is a relatively modern development, and I think it's only with the advent of digital engraving that it has really become standard. Much more common in opera scores is the treble clef with a pair of squiggles to the right that look like a shorthand bracket. Yes, the little 8 is recent, and may have been used first in scores for recorder ensembles, before digital engraving became a personal endeavor, with the octave-higher indication for soprano (descant) and bass recorders. (Recorders actually sound at 4' pitch, an octave above the voice parts they're named for, but the conventional notation for alto and tenor obscures that fact.) The G-clef + Bracket you mention I've never seen in opera scores, but have seen in choral music. The idea was to clarify that middle C was on the 3rd space (and thus an octave below the regular G clef), but it always looked odd because ALL the clefs have always been attached to lines, not to spaces, for the last thousand years. Another method--and it may have been Novello--was to use two treble clefs side by side, presumably assuming that they would weight twice as much as a single treble clef and thus sink down an octave in pitch!! The little-8 notation is by far the most exact (and in theory should be used for piccolo, string bass, guitar and bass guitar parts, but there's too much tradition behind the conventional notation for those instruments). It makes the other attempts to find a solution look pretty dated. And with the dying out of the movable C clefs in general use and in music education (except for the instruments that have retained them as standard) it's probably the best compromise by far. (If our original poster were playing from string quartet scores, he would almost certainly be complaining about having the viola in alto clef!) Broadway piano-vocal scores are even worse than opera scores, since plain treble clef is almost always used regardless of the voice called for. In fact you sometimes can't even figure out which octave is intended, and it's easy to make a decision that's different from what was done with the original cast. We've got the same problem with late medieval music (for those few of us who actually care!). Hildegard's wonderful 12th century music was notated in a way that LOOKS as if it's for men's voices. (The church developed the notation, women weren't allowed to sing in church, so there was NO notation suitable for women's voice!) When the group Anonymous 4 sings the repertoire with women's voices they are not singing in the notated octaves, or maybe even with the notated pitches, because they've adapted the music to their own voices. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
On 15 Sep 2011 at 17:57, John Howell wrote: [] Another method--and it may have been Novello--was to use two treble clefs side by side, presumably assuming that they would weight twice as much as a single treble clef and thus sink down an octave in pitch!! This also conflicted with an existing Italian practice (used by Mozart in his autographs) of using doubled clefs to indicate a staff with doubling instruments. For instance, when a line in a Mozart auto graph was for two instruments, e.g., 2 oboes, Mozart doubled the treble clef. This was to clue the copyist in that this staff would (or could) produce two separate parts. Thus, a copyist could count the clefs on the first page and know how many parts to produce. Example here: http://www.omifacsimiles.com/brochures/moz_ido.html [] ...(If our original poster were playing from string quartet scores, he would almost certainly be complaining about having the viola in alto clef!) Until I played an instrument that uses alto clef extensively (viola da gamba) I was one of those accompanists who was annoyed by alto clef. But it is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL that it be used in both score and parts, because anything else just completely misrepresents the range/content of the music, and makes it vastly harder to read than is necessary. On the other hand, because of that, tenor clef makes my head explode! [] We've got the same problem with late medieval music (for those few of us who actually care!). Hildegard's wonderful 12th century music was notated in a way that LOOKS as if it's for men's voices. (The church developed the notation, women weren't allowed to sing in church, so there was NO notation suitable for women's voice!) When the group Anonymous 4 sings the repertoire with women's voices they are not singing in the notated octaves, or maybe even with the notated pitches, because they've adapted the music to their own voices. This explanation is not exactly correct -- it tends to treat old notation the way modern notation works, i.e, as indicating an absolute pitch. Until the 15th or 16th century (later than I think most people realize), clefs did not at all indicate any reference to an absolute pitch -- instead, they indicated voice range and sometimes functioned as something like a key signature. So what Anonymous 4 does here is not in any way at variance with the actual meaning of the notation itself. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
*The little-8 notation is by far the most exact (and in theory should be used for piccolo, string bass, guitar and bass guitar parts, but there's too much tradition behind the conventional **notation for those instruments). * * * I know what you're getting at, but wouldn't it be more accurate to have the little-8 *above* the clef for piccolo since it sounds and octave higher? * *On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 2:57 PM, John Howell john.how...@vt.edu wrote: At 1:02 PM -0700 9/15/11, Mark D Lew wrote: I can't recall it mentioned in this thread yet, but there are various ways to indicate that a treble clef sounds 8vb below. The little 8 below the clef I think is a relatively modern development, and I think it's only with the advent of digital engraving that it has really become standard. Much more common in opera scores is the treble clef with a pair of squiggles to the right that look like a shorthand bracket. Yes, the little 8 is recent, and may have been used first in scores for recorder ensembles, before digital engraving became a personal endeavor, with the octave-higher indication for soprano (descant) and bass recorders. (Recorders actually sound at 4' pitch, an octave above the voice parts they're named for, but the conventional notation for alto and tenor obscures that fact.) The G-clef + Bracket you mention I've never seen in opera scores, but have seen in choral music. The idea was to clarify that middle C was on the 3rd space (and thus an octave below the regular G clef), but it always looked odd because ALL the clefs have always been attached to lines, not to spaces, for the last thousand years. Another method--and it may have been Novello--was to use two treble clefs side by side, presumably assuming that they would weight twice as much as a single treble clef and thus sink down an octave in pitch!! The little-8 notation is by far the most exact (and in theory should be used for piccolo, string bass, guitar and bass guitar parts, but there's too much tradition behind the conventional notation for those instruments). It makes the other attempts to find a solution look pretty dated. And with the dying out of the movable C clefs in general use and in music education (except for the instruments that have retained them as standard) it's probably the best compromise by far. (If our original poster were playing from string quartet scores, he would almost certainly be complaining about having the viola in alto clef!) Broadway piano-vocal scores are even worse than opera scores, since plain treble clef is almost always used regardless of the voice called for. In fact you sometimes can't even figure out which octave is intended, and it's easy to make a decision that's different from what was done with the original cast. We've got the same problem with late medieval music (for those few of us who actually care!). Hildegard's wonderful 12th century music was notated in a way that LOOKS as if it's for men's voices. (The church developed the notation, women weren't allowed to sing in church, so there was NO notation suitable for women's voice!) When the group Anonymous 4 sings the repertoire with women's voices they are not singing in the notated octaves, or maybe even with the notated pitches, because they've adapted the music to their own voices. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
At 3:38 PM -0700 9/15/11, Ryan wrote: *The little-8 notation is by far the most exact (and in theory should be used for piccolo, string bass, guitar and bass guitar parts, but there's too much tradition behind the conventional **notation for those instruments). * * * I know what you're getting at, but wouldn't it be more accurate to have the little-8 *above* the clef for piccolo since it sounds and octave higher? Yes. That's exactly what I meant, just as it's used for soprano recorder (sometimes). John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
And does anyone put a little 15 on top of the treble clef when they write for glockenspiel? :) ajr ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
At 1:14 AM + 9/16/11, arabus...@austin.rr.com wrote: And does anyone put a little 15 on top of the treble clef when they write for glockenspiel? :) ajr That's also grandfathered in by tradition. And don't forget xylophone! There are still some things you just have to learn in orchestration class. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
...although the books by Piston and Rimsky-Korsakov'll do in a pinch! ajr John Howell john.how...@vt.edu wrote: At 1:14 AM + 9/16/11, arabus...@austin.rr.com wrote: And does anyone put a little 15 on top of the treble clef when they write for glockenspiel? :) ajr That's also grandfathered in by tradition. And don't forget xylophone! There are still some things you just have to learn in orchestration class. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
Curious. I sang a church choir for several years (back in the 80s) and I never saw anything but tenor-treble unless the tenor and bass part were combined on a staff. Of course if J. S. Bach could contribute to this list, he would probably lament the loss of the tenor clef, which is so suited to the tenor voice. I would guess treble-tenor has stuck with us because the notes on tenor treble are only one half-space removed from the same notes on tenor clef and hence obviate the need for lots of leger lines. On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Patrick Sheehan patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com wrote: To All Choirmasters out there: Part of my work for the past 10+ years has been accompanying for high school choirs, where at times we will perform a mix classic and new serious literature as well as some of the popular alternative choices that are in the catalogs today. What bothers me in reading, is that now 75% of the time in the printed music of today, the tenor staff (part) is in treble clef (with or without the 8 below the clef). I personally think that that clef is absolutely unpractical, and should never be used. When I play part summaries in rehearsal (no accompaniment, just al the parts) in rehearsal, it bugs the absolute hell out of me that the tenor part is in treble 8 clef, because I expect to see two staves in treble (soprano, alto) and two in bass (tenor and bass). My question is: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. And, does this bother anyone else, and do you agree that it should be abolished? Patrick J. M. Sheehan Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy P. S. Music mailto:patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
Since I am used to reading trombone parts with ledger lines, and since I studied 4 part harmony using two voices in each clef, I prefer to see parts for tenor voice written in bass clef too. It does make more sense to my eye, I don't know what the historical precedent for the practice of using treble clef is. Chuck On Sep 14, 2011, at 7:40 AM, Patrick Sheehan wrote: To All Choirmasters out there: Part of my work for the past 10+ years has been accompanying for high school choirs, where at times we will perform a mix classic and new serious literature as well as some of the popular alternative choices that are in the catalogs today. What bothers me in reading, is that now 75% of the time in the printed music of today, the tenor staff (part) is in treble clef (with or without the 8 below the clef). I personally think that that clef is absolutely unpractical, and should never be used. When I play part summaries in rehearsal (no accompaniment, just al the parts) in rehearsal, it bugs the absolute hell out of me that the tenor part is in treble 8 clef, because I expect to see two staves in treble (soprano, alto) and two in bass (tenor and bass). My question is: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. And, does this bother anyone else, and do you agree that it should be abolished? Patrick J. M. Sheehan Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy P. S. Music mailto:patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 1310 NW Naito Parkway #807 Portland, OR 97209-316 land line: (971) 255-1167 cell phone: (360) 201-3434 www.chuckisraels.com www.chuckisraelsjazz.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir (2nd thought)
Is it because of ledger lines in bass clef running into the lyrics on the alto parts? Tenors live above middle C a lot of the time. Chuck On Sep 14, 2011, at 7:40 AM, Patrick Sheehan wrote: To All Choirmasters out there: Part of my work for the past 10+ years has been accompanying for high school choirs, where at times we will perform a mix classic and new serious literature as well as some of the popular alternative choices that are in the catalogs today. What bothers me in reading, is that now 75% of the time in the printed music of today, the tenor staff (part) is in treble clef (with or without the 8 below the clef). I personally think that that clef is absolutely unpractical, and should never be used. When I play part summaries in rehearsal (no accompaniment, just al the parts) in rehearsal, it bugs the absolute hell out of me that the tenor part is in treble 8 clef, because I expect to see two staves in treble (soprano, alto) and two in bass (tenor and bass). My question is: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. And, does this bother anyone else, and do you agree that it should be abolished? Patrick J. M. Sheehan Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy P. S. Music mailto:patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 1310 NW Naito Parkway #807 Portland, OR 97209-316 land line: (971) 255-1167 cell phone: (360) 201-3434 www.chuckisraels.com www.chuckisraelsjazz.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
I think it is useful and prefer it to the other options. It gives the tenors a useful sense of where notes lie in their range. If I notebash for tenors I play (lightly) the octave above as well as the actual pitch, because most amateurs and some professionals here the actual pitch as low. Steve P. On 14 Sep 2011, at 15:40, Patrick Sheehan wrote: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. And, does this bother anyone else, and do you agree that it should be abolished? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
Patrick: I am not a choirmaster, but I am a composer and a singer who occasionally performs tenor parts. The reason that I can think that it makes sense relates more to classical choral tenor (ie: Bach, Mozart, etc) and to operatic tenor parts. Those parts tend to lie more above Middle C (and in the case of operatic tenor, up to High C or D). So to put the tenor parts for that type of music in the treble clef with middle C at the bottom of the staff (and needing only the occasional few ledger lines below the staff for G-C) rather than in bass clef with middle C at the top of the staff (and thus requiring copious amounts of ledger lines above the staff) creates an economy of space. But as a composer, sightreader and notator, it bugs the hell outta me to see this. When I'm writing, I always put the tenor part in Bass Clef and I may or may not switch it later. Adam On 14/09/2011 11:40 AM, Patrick Sheehan wrote: To All Choirmasters out there: Part of my work for the past 10+ years has been accompanying for high school choirs, where at times we will perform a mix classic and new serious literature as well as some of the popular alternative choices that are in the catalogs today. What bothers me in reading, is that now 75% of the time in the printed music of today, the tenor staff (part) is in treble clef (with or without the 8 below the clef). I personally think that that clef is absolutely unpractical, and should never be used. When I play part summaries in rehearsal (no accompaniment, just al the parts) in rehearsal, it bugs the absolute hell out of me that the tenor part is in treble 8 clef, because I expect to see two staves in treble (soprano, alto) and two in bass (tenor and bass). My question is: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. And, does this bother anyone else, and do you agree that it should be abolished? Patrick J. M. Sheehan Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir (2nd thought)
Yes. Also because solo music for tenor voice is frequently written in Treble 8vb instead of bass clef. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 14 Sep 2011, at 10:53 AM, Chuck Israels wrote: Is it because of ledger lines in bass clef running into the lyrics on the alto parts? Tenors live above middle C a lot of the time. Chuck On Sep 14, 2011, at 7:40 AM, Patrick Sheehan wrote: To All Choirmasters out there: Part of my work for the past 10+ years has been accompanying for high school choirs, where at times we will perform a mix classic and new serious literature as well as some of the popular alternative choices that are in the catalogs today. What bothers me in reading, is that now 75% of the time in the printed music of today, the tenor staff (part) is in treble clef (with or without the 8 below the clef). I personally think that that clef is absolutely unpractical, and should never be used. When I play part summaries in rehearsal (no accompaniment, just al the parts) in rehearsal, it bugs the absolute hell out of me that the tenor part is in treble 8 clef, because I expect to see two staves in treble (soprano, alto) and two in bass (tenor and bass). My question is: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. And, does this bother anyone else, and do you agree that it should be abolished? Patrick J. M. Sheehan Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy P. S. Music mailto:patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 1310 NW Naito Parkway #807 Portland, OR 97209-316 land line: (971) 255-1167 cell phone: (360) 201-3434 www.chuckisraels.com www.chuckisraelsjazz.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
My 2 cents: I saw tenor parts in bass clef in two staff scores (SA together-TB together) only, while all 4 staff scores I could manage and sing got the treble(8) clef. I think that the main reason for using treble clef is an easier readability of the score, especially when tenors have to reach high notes (G,A) that would fly high from the bass clef score a bit too much Il 14/09/2011 16.40, Patrick Sheehan ha scritto: To All Choirmasters out there: Part of my work for the past 10+ years has been accompanying for high school choirs, where at times we will perform a mix classic and new serious literature as well as some of the popular alternative choices that are in the catalogs today. What bothers me in reading, is that now 75% of the time in the printed music of today, the tenor staff (part) is in treble clef (with or without the 8 below the clef). I personally think that that clef is absolutely unpractical, and should never be used. When I play part summaries in rehearsal (no accompaniment, just al the parts) in rehearsal, it bugs the absolute hell out of me that the tenor part is in treble 8 clef, because I expect to see two staves in treble (soprano, alto) and two in bass (tenor and bass). My question is: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. And, does this bother anyone else, and do you agree that it should be abolished? Patrick J. M. Sheehan Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy P. S. Music mailto:patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
I'm going to have to say as an accompanist for choirs for most of the past 30 years that the treble clef (with or without the 8) is more common. I'm assuming each voice is written in a different clef. For vocal parts where the Soprano/Alto is written on one clef and the Tenor/Bass on another, then the tenor part is in bass clef. For my experience at least, I'd find it strange to accompany in 4-part voicing if the tenor part were not in the treble clef. In the small volunteer choir I direct, the lone tenor is accustomed to treble clef, but has no problem reading bass. I think the problem lies in so many leger lines. If the tenors go too high, the amount of spacing between the alto and tenor clef becomes disproportionate to the spacing between the other clefs. That starts to look confusing and becomes a distraction. Maybe we should bring back the soprano clef for sopranos, alto for altos and tenor for tenors. That would drive everyone crazy. James Gilbert JamesGilbertMusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
On 14 Sep 2011 at 9:40, Patrick Sheehan wrote: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. Your secondary premise is COMPLETELY FALSE. That is, printing tenor vocal parts in bass clef is a minority practice. The fact is that tradition was to print the tenor part in TENOR CLEF, to reduce leger lines. But as that clef fell out of favor, the treble8 clef was invented. It is a modern invention, but it's almost universal in modern published editions. Using either bass clef or treble clef would result in an unacceptable number of ledger lines, seems to me, and that's why something different is needed. And, does this bother anyone else, and do you agree that it should be abolished? I think that printing a tenor part in bass clef or treble clef is the practice that should be abolished -- it's much less readable than the alternatives (tenor clef or treble8). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
Patrick: 1. You are absolutely right. 2. The battle was lost, decades ago, unfortunately, although the solution was never bass clef for separate tenor lines, it was tenor clef. Tenor clef fought a good fight but died in the early 20th century. Learn to deal with it, as with all arbitrary notational conventions, of which there are many. (Try reading the 2nd trombone part in most Shostakovitch symphonies symphonies - low tessitura, alto clef = leger lines below the staff.) No logic sometimes, just strange traditions, but the performer has to deal with it. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 10:40 AM, Patrick Sheehan patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com wrote: To All Choirmasters out there: Part of my work for the past 10+ years has been accompanying for high school choirs, where at times we will perform a mix classic and new serious literature as well as some of the popular alternative choices that are in the catalogs today. What bothers me in reading, is that now 75% of the time in the printed music of today, the tenor staff (part) is in treble clef (with or without the 8 below the clef). I personally think that that clef is absolutely unpractical, and should never be used. When I play part summaries in rehearsal (no accompaniment, just al the parts) in rehearsal, it bugs the absolute hell out of me that the tenor part is in treble 8 clef, because I expect to see two staves in treble (soprano, alto) and two in bass (tenor and bass). My question is: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. And, does this bother anyone else, and do you agree that it should be abolished? Patrick J. M. Sheehan Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy P. S. Music mailto:patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
I'm not a choirmaster, but an opera and orchestra conductor. There's a simple and rational explanation for the tenors being assigned to treble clef (with or without the 8 attached at the bottom). The question: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. There are two answers: 1) it's used in printed music today because it's been done that way since the late 19th century, particularly in English choral music (where much of American choral tradition derives) and 2) it was never printed in bass clef most of the time in any period or choral tradition. The shorthand of combining tenor and bass on the same staff was simply a matter of convenience. Clefs were originally chosen to eliminate ledger lines and keep the music within the confines of the staff as much as possible. Historically there were three clefs: C clefs, G clefs and F clefs. By its placement on the staff, each identifies that note for which it is named. Originally, all three were movable. Today, only the C clefs are mobile. Middle C in the soprano clef is on the second staff line from the bottom; today it is only found in older choral editions. Alto clef, used for violas and some older trombone writing, places middle C on the middle line. Tenor clef, used in cello, trombone and bassoon literature, places it on the fourth line. Until roughly the latter 19th century, choral music was notated using three C clefs and one F clef: soprano, alto, tenor and bass clef. (Incidentally, the movable clefs are useful in learning to read transposing instrumental parts at sight. Use soprano clef for instruments in A, tenor clef for instruments in B flat, alto clef for instruments in D, bass clef for treble clef instruments in E or E flat, and baritone clef for F transpositions. You're on your own for Horn in G). The tenor voice is analogous to the soprano voice in its range, and their common written literature is called high voice and used treble clef. Tenor singers study voice formally and use the same Italian vocal studies (Concone, Vaccai, Bordogni, etc.). Opera scores from the late baroque onward inevitably notate tenor roles in treble clef. The treble clef, or G clef, was originally called the Violin clef, because it was extensively used for instrumental music. During the early baroque, it began to be used often for keyboard music also, and the tradition stuck. Because much of the soprano voice's material is found in the top staff of the accompaniment, it became common for the soprano part to use the treble clef instead of the soprano clef. Optimization (shrinking) of printed score pages meant that soprano and alto parts were often notated on the same staff; likewise, tenor and bass were combined in the bass clef. I'm not aware of any time or place that notated the tenor part in bass clef when using a separate staff. You're not going to change the tradition of notating tenor in the treble clef, and frankly I don't think it would be a good idea. High tenor parts would be a nightmare of ledger lines. My suggestion is to get comfortable with the notation by learning to read open score more easily. There are several good books teaching Score Reading at the Piano, the first of which that comes to mind is Morris Ferguson. They drill you in reading all the clefs, starting on two lines and leading up to a full score. When you can sightread four-part Bach chorales written in soprano, alto, tenor and bass clefs, you feel close to God. Steve Larsen -Original Message- From: Patrick Sheehan [mailto:patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:40 AM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir To All Choirmasters out there: Part of my work for the past 10+ years has been accompanying for high school choirs, where at times we will perform a mix classic and new serious literature as well as some of the popular alternative choices that are in the catalogs today. What bothers me in reading, is that now 75% of the time in the printed music of today, the tenor staff (part) is in treble clef (with or without the 8 below the clef). I personally think that that clef is absolutely unpractical, and should never be used. When I play part summaries in rehearsal (no accompaniment, just al the parts) in rehearsal, it bugs the absolute hell out of me that the tenor part is in treble 8 clef, because I expect to see two staves in treble (soprano, alto) and two in bass (tenor and bass). My question is: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. And, does this bother anyone else, and do you agree that it should be abolished? Patrick J. M. Sheehan Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy P. S. Music mailto:patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
I think part of the issue is that treble clef is used with the properties of the treble8. There's no distinction made between the two and the tenor voice is essentially treated as a transposing instrument (sounding an octave lower). That practice is used numerous times for solo tenor voices in art songs and even in opera scores. On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:27 AM, David W. Fenton lists.fin...@dfenton.com wrote: On 14 Sep 2011 at 9:40, Patrick Sheehan wrote: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. Your secondary premise is COMPLETELY FALSE. That is, printing tenor vocal parts in bass clef is a minority practice. The fact is that tradition was to print the tenor part in TENOR CLEF, to reduce leger lines. But as that clef fell out of favor, the treble8 clef was invented. It is a modern invention, but it's almost universal in modern published editions. Using either bass clef or treble clef would result in an unacceptable number of ledger lines, seems to me, and that's why something different is needed. And, does this bother anyone else, and do you agree that it should be abolished? I think that printing a tenor part in bass clef or treble clef is the practice that should be abolished -- it's much less readable than the alternatives (tenor clef or treble8). -- David W. Fenton http://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
Horn in G in concert pitch: Put in Baritone clef, sounds an octave higher) (To play Horn in G on Horn in F: Put in Alto clef, play octave higher. Though for me, it's easier to just transpose up a step.) On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 12:48 PM, Steve Larsen st...@larsenbein.com wrote: I'm not a choirmaster, but an opera and orchestra conductor. There's a simple and rational explanation for the tenors being assigned to treble clef (with or without the 8 attached at the bottom). The question: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. There are two answers: 1) it's used in printed music today because it's been done that way since the late 19th century, particularly in English choral music (where much of American choral tradition derives) and 2) it was never printed in bass clef most of the time in any period or choral tradition. The shorthand of combining tenor and bass on the same staff was simply a matter of convenience. Clefs were originally chosen to eliminate ledger lines and keep the music within the confines of the staff as much as possible. Historically there were three clefs: C clefs, G clefs and F clefs. By its placement on the staff, each identifies that note for which it is named. Originally, all three were movable. Today, only the C clefs are mobile. Middle C in the soprano clef is on the second staff line from the bottom; today it is only found in older choral editions. Alto clef, used for violas and some older trombone writing, places middle C on the middle line. Tenor clef, used in cello, trombone and bassoon literature, places it on the fourth line. Until roughly the latter 19th century, choral music was notated using three C clefs and one F clef: soprano, alto, tenor and bass clef. (Incidentally, the movable clefs are useful in learning to read transposing instrumental parts at sight. Use soprano clef for instruments in A, tenor clef for instruments in B flat, alto clef for instruments in D, bass clef for treble clef instruments in E or E flat, and baritone clef for F transpositions. You're on your own for Horn in G). The tenor voice is analogous to the soprano voice in its range, and their common written literature is called high voice and used treble clef. Tenor singers study voice formally and use the same Italian vocal studies (Concone, Vaccai, Bordogni, etc.). Opera scores from the late baroque onward inevitably notate tenor roles in treble clef. The treble clef, or G clef, was originally called the Violin clef, because it was extensively used for instrumental music. During the early baroque, it began to be used often for keyboard music also, and the tradition stuck. Because much of the soprano voice's material is found in the top staff of the accompaniment, it became common for the soprano part to use the treble clef instead of the soprano clef. Optimization (shrinking) of printed score pages meant that soprano and alto parts were often notated on the same staff; likewise, tenor and bass were combined in the bass clef. I'm not aware of any time or place that notated the tenor part in bass clef when using a separate staff. You're not going to change the tradition of notating tenor in the treble clef, and frankly I don't think it would be a good idea. High tenor parts would be a nightmare of ledger lines. My suggestion is to get comfortable with the notation by learning to read open score more easily. There are several good books teaching Score Reading at the Piano, the first of which that comes to mind is Morris Ferguson. They drill you in reading all the clefs, starting on two lines and leading up to a full score. When you can sightread four-part Bach chorales written in soprano, alto, tenor and bass clefs, you feel close to God. Steve Larsen -Original Message- From: Patrick Sheehan [mailto:patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:40 AM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir To All Choirmasters out there: Part of my work for the past 10+ years has been accompanying for high school choirs, where at times we will perform a mix classic and new serious literature as well as some of the popular alternative choices that are in the catalogs today. What bothers me in reading, is that now 75% of the time in the printed music of today, the tenor staff (part) is in treble clef (with or without the 8 below the clef). I personally think that that clef is absolutely unpractical, and should never be used. When I play part summaries in rehearsal (no accompaniment, just al the parts) in rehearsal, it bugs the absolute hell out of me that the tenor part is in treble 8 clef, because I expect to see two staves in treble (soprano, alto) and two in bass (tenor and bass). My question is: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
Steve Larsen wrote: I'm not aware of any time or place that notated the tenor part in bass clef when using a separate staff. Agreed. I've seen a ton of opera and choral scores from 17th century to 20th, and I've never seen this. Choral tenors are combined with the basses in a bass clef when SATB is put into two staves hymnbook-style. Otherwise tenors are on the octave-below treble clef, either marked or unmarked. Unless you go back even earlier, in which case all chorus parts are in movable C clefs. But never tenor in a bass clef. (There is, incidentally, some small tradition of the reverse -- ie, writing baritone parts in the 8vb treble clef -- particularly in English music in the late 19th and early 20th century. You'll see this in Vaughn Williams' scores, for example.) mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
On 14 Sep 2011 at 12:18, Ryan wrote: I think part of the issue is that treble clef is used with the properties of the treble8. There's no distinction made between the two and the tenor voice is essentially treated as a transposing instrument (sounding an octave lower). That practice is used numerous times for solo tenor voices in art songs and even in opera scores. If treble clef is used with the music notated 8ba, then that's bad and I would agree it's WRONG. But treble clef 8 is perfectly acceptable and I would say is the one practice that is always going to be correct. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
Being a tenor, and singing in a wide variety groups, etc., over the years, this is what I've found with modern printing / editing practices. When a four part piece is written on four separate staves (S-A-T-B), the treble 8 clef is used for the tenor. If the piece is written on two staves (SA-TB), or sometimes even three (S-A-TB), the tenor shares the bass clef with the basses and baritones. I've have seen a few variations from this, but they are too rare to even be considered. As for my personal tastes, having performed pieces ranging from the medieval to the modern, my first choice would of course be the tenor clef. But, when forced to make a choice between the bass clef and the treble 8 clef, I very much prefer reading the treble clef. I think most tenors would agree with me. Scott Holland Tenor - Westminster Choir College '94/'98 ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
I would agree. As a tenor, the treble cleff has less ledger lines, and is generally easier to sight read, although I don't really think that it makes a huge difference for me: I tend to sight sing by intervals, not by absolute pitch. Where the note falls in your throat sometimes throws me off, but generally it doesn't matter. Even the traditional C clef doesn't really bother me, once I get my bearings. I also do a fair amount of notating for choirs, and find I get less complaints when using the 8vb treble clef. Because of publishing house requirements, I notice that they may want you to use as few staves as possible, to save paper. Personally, as a tenor I find this maddening, because I have to keep switching clefs. I'd rather just stick to one clef, since a lot of what I do is performing with very few rehearsals. From a composition point of view, I prefer to notate depending on the music. Music that is polyphonic - I prefer to notate all four parts (with tenor on the 8vb treble), but otherwise prefer two clefs because it's easier to proof the harmonies. But again, it generally doesn't matter that much to me. I think as a composer, you need to consider how your piece will be performed, and make it easier for the performer to understand, whether or not they are reading for sight-singing or not. The less time spent explaining everything, the better for the director. And certainly, reading multiple clefs should not be a problem. Our director (of an amateur choir) frequently has us reading parts meant for other singers (e.g., alto reading the bass and singing it an octave higher), and it has been beneficial, in my opinion. Just my 2 cents. On 9/14/2011 4:13 PM, Scott wrote: Being a tenor, and singing in a wide variety groups, etc., over the years, this is what I've found with modern printing / editing practices. When a four part piece is written on four separate staves (S-A-T-B), the treble 8 clef is used for the tenor. If the piece is written on two staves (SA-TB), or sometimes even three (S-A-TB), the tenor shares the bass clef with the basses and baritones. I've have seen a few variations from this, but they are too rare to even be considered. As for my personal tastes, having performed pieces ranging from the medieval to the modern, my first choice would of course be the tenor clef. But, when forced to make a choice between the bass clef and the treble 8 clef, I very much prefer reading the treble clef. I think most tenors would agree with me. Scott Holland Tenor - Westminster Choir College '94/'98 ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
The choice has been made - right or wrong, bad or good, it's (8ba) treble clef for tenors when on a separate stave, bass clef when sharing the staff with basses, even in the same work. Tenors learn to bounce back and forth. pianists adjust also. I do recall a small publishing company (name forgotten) in the 1980's that put out some SATB church anthems printed with Treb,Treb,Bs,Bs clefs, and it WAS particularly easy to play those on piano (these particular anthems had conservative ranges, so the leger lines were not excessive) but those publications would be considered an aberration in any case. I think the main reason I was sympathizing with the original poster is that I remember reading some late letters of Arnold Schoenberg written during the time he was composing his final (and unfinished) opera Moses und Aron. He complained about the (new) 8ba treble clef, said that he found it distracting to try to write in it and said he would have to write the tenor part initially in the traditional tenor clef and change it later. (I am paraphrasing after reading this in 1975, but I think I have it for the most part). Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:22 PM, Bruce Kau b...@computer.org wrote: I would agree. As a tenor, the treble cleff has less ledger lines, and is generally easier to sight read, although I don't really think that it makes a huge difference for me: I tend to sight sing by intervals, not by absolute pitch. Where the note falls in your throat sometimes throws me off, but generally it doesn't matter. Even the traditional C clef doesn't really bother me, once I get my bearings. I also do a fair amount of notating for choirs, and find I get less complaints when using the 8vb treble clef. Because of publishing house requirements, I notice that they may want you to use as few staves as possible, to save paper. Personally, as a tenor I find this maddening, because I have to keep switching clefs. I'd rather just stick to one clef, since a lot of what I do is performing with very few rehearsals. From a composition point of view, I prefer to notate depending on the music. Music that is polyphonic - I prefer to notate all four parts (with tenor on the 8vb treble), but otherwise prefer two clefs because it's easier to proof the harmonies. But again, it generally doesn't matter that much to me. I think as a composer, you need to consider how your piece will be performed, and make it easier for the performer to understand, whether or not they are reading for sight-singing or not. The less time spent explaining everything, the better for the director. And certainly, reading multiple clefs should not be a problem. Our director (of an amateur choir) frequently has us reading parts meant for other singers (e.g., alto reading the bass and singing it an octave higher), and it has been beneficial, in my opinion. Just my 2 cents. On 9/14/2011 4:13 PM, Scott wrote: Being a tenor, and singing in a wide variety groups, etc., over the years, this is what I've found with modern printing / editing practices. When a four part piece is written on four separate staves (S-A-T-B), the treble 8 clef is used for the tenor. If the piece is written on two staves (SA-TB), or sometimes even three (S-A-TB), the tenor shares the bass clef with the basses and baritones. I've have seen a few variations from this, but they are too rare to even be considered. As for my personal tastes, having performed pieces ranging from the medieval to the modern, my first choice would of course be the tenor clef. But, when forced to make a choice between the bass clef and the treble 8 clef, I very much prefer reading the treble clef. I think most tenors would agree with me. Scott Holland Tenor - Westminster Choir College '94/'98 ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
