RE: Just a small question...
-Original Message- From: Andreas L. Delmelle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Glen Mazza [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] snip / Keep in mind, Andreas, Apache Geronimo is already running into headaches, apparently including complaints on architectural similarities: http://incubator.apache.org/projects/geronimo/20031031_jboss.pdf Thanks for the pointer. It will surely be of great help in avoiding possible pitfalls. Wow! Having taken a look at the doc in detail, s.o. *has* been really careless in there. My question: how come they didn't succeed in using the ex-JBoss committers' expertise in avoiding this? I'd say, if they had had you on their team, this wouldn't have happened :) Thanks for remaining vigilant about this! Cheers, Andreas
RE: Just a small question...
-Original Message- From: Glen Mazza [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I really appreciate your enthusiasm and am very happy, upon you finding something possibly of use to FOP on another ML, of your bringing it back to the team. We should just be careful in this particular case, however. Well, AFAICT for now, RX didn't take it nearly as far as I would have (*if* I were to do anything with discoveries made in their approach, whatever I would come up with would be unrecognizable compared with the original...) But ok, I promised to be careful, so WRT details, I'll leave it at that for the moment. (BTW, you may also wish to look at Xalan, Batik, and Cocoon for other ideas--*that* code we should be able to use directly.) Yes yes! Of course, these should have been the first to enter my mind... Sorry if my postings scared you a bit. Cheers, Andreas
RE: Just a small question...
-Original Message- From: Peter B. West [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] snip / Nikolai, Please re-consider your decision. I, for one, am extremely pleased that developers on other XSL-FO projects, especially ones so successful as RenderX, are interested enough in FOP to monitor this list, and, even more, to respond here. If you have watched us for a while, you will realise that Glen tends to shoot from the hip, and expresses himself forcefully. (I have done the Peter / Nikolai, I think I should be the one to apologize here, as Nikolai seems to have been offended by one of *my* unreflected shoots from the hip --hey, sometimes I'm in the mood for joking. If the joke comes across bad, I appreciate it when people tell me that it has, offering me an opportunity to clear things out. In this case, the only part saddening me is Nikolai deciding to unsubscribe as a consequence of one simple remark, that wasn't even serious (let alone 'reflected' criticism)... Cheers, Andreas
RE: Just a small question...
-Original Message- From: John Austin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] snip / I am surprised that MS or their minions at SCO haven't twigged to the following scheme They could 'set-up' Open Source by masquerading as some student in netland and submit some provably proprietary code as original. Six months later, MS sues Linus for malfeasance with the vigorous support of Homeland Security ... Of course, conspiracies never succeed for long. Some small fish would rat them out. -- John Austin [EMAIL PROTECTED] ^ You are, aren't you? Cheers, Andreas
Re: Just a small question...
Glen Mazza wrote: [Pardon me, Peter, for more shooting from the hip...] Don't mention it, Glen (whose contributions we all value highly.) Peter -- Peter B. West http://www.powerup.com.au/~pbwest/resume.html
Re: Just a small question...
Andreas L. Delmelle wrote: Peter / Nikolai, I think I should be the one to apologize here, as Nikolai seems to have been offended by one of *my* unreflected shoots from the hip --hey, sometimes I'm in the mood for joking. If the joke comes across bad, I appreciate it when people tell me that it has, offering me an opportunity to clear things out. In this case, the only part saddening me is Nikolai deciding to unsubscribe as a consequence of one simple remark, that wasn't even serious (let alone 'reflected' criticism)... Andreas, Thanks for these comments. Glen has pointed out to me, off-list, the same thing. As I was the one who mentioned Glen by name (as neither Bertrand nor Jeremias did) I must acknowledge that leaving the 2nd-level quotes from you in my reply to Nikolai gave completely the wrong impression. I owe Glen an apology for shooting from the hip. Peter -- Peter B. West http://www.powerup.com.au/~pbwest/resume.html
Re: (Peter) Re: Just a small question...
Glen Mazza wrote: Peter, Both of the remarks that Nikolai quoted [1] in leaving the list came from Andreas [2], not from me [3]. I was only stating the obvious in my warnings not to use their code. I don't appreciate you trying--for those who haven't been following the thread--to attribute Andreas' quotes to me. Glen Glen, That was a very misleading oversight on my part. I was aware that the quotes did not come from you, and should have removed them, but I forgot before I posted. I.e., I shot from the hip. My apologies. Nonetheless, and please don't take this amiss, I stand by the tenor of my comments. I think you need to consider the human effects of the way you express yourself. It's a chronic problem of email exchanges that they are read very differently from the way they are written. A forcefulness that can be quite inoffensive in face-to-face situations can easily generate very defensive responses in email. I suspect that was part of the problem in Andreas' response to you. I'm sure you know all this, and it applies to me as well. In retrospect, I should probably have expressed my opinions on this to you personally, while assuring Nikolai in public of my regret that he was most welcome on the list. Again, I shot from the hip, and I apologise for that. That said, I hope there may be some beneficial effects from stating those opinions in public, if someone else who reads them becomes less likely in future to take a comment of yours the wrong way. In that sense, my comments may take some pressure *off* you. I hope, at least, that some such beneficial outcome may arise from this. If there is anything else you would like me to say about this in public, please let me know. Peter -- Peter B. West http://www.powerup.com.au/~pbwest/resume.html
Re: (Peter) Re: Just a small question...
No big deal--but I do wish to add that my phrasing that you were *intentionally* trying to attribute Andreas' quotes to me was wrong, and I do apologize for that. Anyway, let's get back to work... Glen --- Peter B. West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
RE: Just a small question...
-Original Message- From: Glen Mazza [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Please do *not* share anything you find with the team--We don't need any you-stole-our-code headaches from the commercial implementations. Ok, I won't No offense, but I think you mistake my intentions here, Glen. If not, then of course I appreciate your concern... Fact is, I have up to now blindly refused to even have a glance at competing products, probably just because I share these very same concerns. To be honest: I was quite surprised to receive an answer from s.o. at RenderX (--still wondering which of the two is more true: either his employers have no idea what he's doing, or he doesn't care whether they know... or he is his own employer trying to lure me into doing something illegal --in which case he'll fail - hey, come to think of it, does RX need money or what? =D ) Be careful, Andreas--RenderX or AntennaHouse code should not be in FOP I *will* be careful. I agree 100% with this, but I don't agree at all with your stating that --nor should FOP developers even be looking at its internals. Matter of simple integrity. I think this is a bit over the top. Suppose that tomorrow, someone gets fired at RX or AH, and this ex-employee decides to share some ideas with us. Are we really going to tell him to take a hike?? Just because of simple integrity? (Suppose that, before we find out, he has already submitted a few patches that have been applied. Would we undo all of these patches, because of 'simple integrity'?) Please, don't get me wrong. I definitely appreciate the nobility of your motives here, and I too would certainly enjoy the satisfaction of having it done the honest way, whatever that means. Stay away from their work--it's not worth it!!! At worst, it's illegal, at best you're taking away the reward--from everyone!--of coming up with a comparable implementation. It's --should I add: of course ?- not the intention to copy anything, just gather some ideas. I don't want FOP tarnished with 0.001% of RenderX or AntennaHouse code (or inspired code). My point exactly: how are we going to make sure of that if we're not even meant to look at their internals? (Who knows, maybe it's 0.47% already... Besides that, you never get to see the source from commercial implementations --source in the strict sense -, unless you're working there or know your bytecode by heart ;) ) If we can't provide a comparable implementation, then let us lose honorably. If we can, we can then enjoy the satisfaction of having done it the honest way, not by copying work! Are you by any chance familiar with (--Picasso's, I think...): Bad artists copy, good artists --steal. Look at the evolution of the human species, and ask yourself: what would have happened if every generation had to start from scratch? What I mean is: you won't find me copying anything! (To be honest, I'm a little offended by the mere supposition that I might be inclined to do that... ) Again, I *do* appreciate your concerns for the project as a whole, but I strongly doubt whether these should be a reason to remain blind to other peoples' approaches. Cheers, Andreas
RE: Just a small question...
On Thu, 2004-02-05 at 15:28, Andreas L. Delmelle wrote: I think this is a bit over the top. Suppose that tomorrow, someone gets fired at RX or AH, and this ex-employee decides to share some ideas with us. Are we really going to tell him to take a hike?? Just because of simple integrity? (Suppose that, before we find out, he has already submitted a few patches that have been applied. Would we undo all of these patches, because of 'simple integrity'?) I am surprised that MS or their minions at SCO haven't twigged to the following scheme They could 'set-up' Open Source by masquerading as some student in netland and submit some provably proprietary code as original. Six months later, MS sues Linus for malfeasance with the vigorous support of Homeland Security ... Of course, conspiracies never succeed for long. Some small fish would rat them out. -- John Austin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a small question...
I realize I was wrong when I answered to this forum - I could not expect my words to be interpreted this way. Please disregard my previous message; I also unsubscribe from the list, to make you feel sure I don't induce anyone into wrongdoing. RenderX (--still wondering which of the two is more true: either his employers have no idea what he's doing, or he doesn't care whether they know... or he is his own employer trying to lure me into doing something illegal --in which case he'll fail I _am_ in the position to decide myself how much technical information about RenderX XEP can be safely disclosed. But if you prefer to see any word that comes from RenderX as a fraud attempt, you're welcome. - hey, come to think of it, does RX need money or what? =D ) And they have the money - earned by writing software, not by cheating. Yours truly, Nikolai Grigoriev XEP Project Leader RenderX - Original Message - From: Andreas L. Delmelle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 9:58 PM Subject: RE: Just a small question... -Original Message- From: Glen Mazza [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Please do *not* share anything you find with the team--We don't need any you-stole-our-code headaches from the commercial implementations. Ok, I won't No offense, but I think you mistake my intentions here, Glen. If not, then of course I appreciate your concern... Fact is, I have up to now blindly refused to even have a glance at competing products, probably just because I share these very same concerns. To be honest: I was quite surprised to receive an answer from s.o. at RenderX (--still wondering which of the two is more true: either his employers have no idea what he's doing, or he doesn't care whether they know... or he is his own employer trying to lure me into doing something illegal --in which case he'll fail - hey, come to think of it, does RX need money or what? =D ) Be careful, Andreas--RenderX or AntennaHouse code should not be in FOP I *will* be careful. I agree 100% with this, but I don't agree at all with your stating that --nor should FOP developers even be looking at its internals. Matter of simple integrity. I think this is a bit over the top. Suppose that tomorrow, someone gets fired at RX or AH, and this ex-employee decides to share some ideas with us. Are we really going to tell him to take a hike?? Just because of simple integrity? (Suppose that, before we find out, he has already submitted a few patches that have been applied. Would we undo all of these patches, because of 'simple integrity'?) Please, don't get me wrong. I definitely appreciate the nobility of your motives here, and I too would certainly enjoy the satisfaction of having it done the honest way, whatever that means. Stay away from their work--it's not worth it!!! At worst, it's illegal, at best you're taking away the reward--from everyone!--of coming up with a comparable implementation. It's --should I add: of course ?- not the intention to copy anything, just gather some ideas. I don't want FOP tarnished with 0.001% of RenderX or AntennaHouse code (or inspired code). My point exactly: how are we going to make sure of that if we're not even meant to look at their internals? (Who knows, maybe it's 0.47% already... Besides that, you never get to see the source from commercial implementations --source in the strict sense -, unless you're working there or know your bytecode by heart ;) ) If we can't provide a comparable implementation, then let us lose honorably. If we can, we can then enjoy the satisfaction of having done it the honest way, not by copying work! Are you by any chance familiar with (--Picasso's, I think...): Bad artists copy, good artists --steal. Look at the evolution of the human species, and ask yourself: what would have happened if every generation had to start from scratch? What I mean is: you won't find me copying anything! (To be honest, I'm a little offended by the mere supposition that I might be inclined to do that... ) Again, I *do* appreciate your concerns for the project as a whole, but I strongly doubt whether these should be a reason to remain blind to other peoples' approaches. Cheers, Andreas
RE: Just a small question...
-Original Message- From: Andreas L. Delmelle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] snip / Again, I *do* appreciate your concerns for the project as a whole, but I strongly doubt whether these should be a reason to remain blind to other peoples' approaches. To summarize: it's all about learning from *their* mistakes as well, not? :) Cheers, Andreas
Re: Just a small question...
Nikolai Grigoriev wrote: I realize I was wrong when I answered to this forum - I could not expect my words to be interpreted this way. Please disregard my previous message; I also unsubscribe from the list, to make you feel sure I don't induce anyone into wrongdoing. RenderX (--still wondering which of the two is more true: either his employers have no idea what he's doing, or he doesn't care whether they know... or he is his own employer trying to lure me into doing something illegal --in which case he'll fail I _am_ in the position to decide myself how much technical information about RenderX XEP can be safely disclosed. But if you prefer to see any word that comes from RenderX as a fraud attempt, you're welcome. - hey, come to think of it, does RX need money or what? =D ) And they have the money - earned by writing software, not by cheating. Yours truly, Nikolai Grigoriev XEP Project Leader RenderX Nikolai, Please re-consider your decision. I, for one, am extremely pleased that developers on other XSL-FO projects, especially ones so successful as RenderX, are interested enough in FOP to monitor this list, and, even more, to respond here. If you have watched us for a while, you will realise that Glen tends to shoot from the hip, and expresses himself forcefully. (I have done the same on occasion.) More than one of the regulars here has been stung by Glen's comments, but we understand that that is Glen's manner. We value his contributions greatly, and shrug off the more over-the-top expressions of opinion because we are used to the way he says things. I hope you can bring yourself to do the same. Glen raised issues which we in FOP must consider carefully. However, I enjoy the community of interest between us and commercial developers, and if you or, say, Tony Graham from Sun's xmlroff, wants to chime in to the discussions I welcome the input greatly. Peter -- Peter B. West http://www.powerup.com.au/~pbwest/resume.html
RE: Just a small question...
[Pardon me, Peter, for more shooting from the hip...] --- Andreas L. Delmelle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --nor should FOP developers even be looking at its internals. Matter of simple integrity. I think this is a bit over the top. Suppose that tomorrow, someone gets fired at RX or AH, and this ex-employee decides to share some ideas with us. Are we really going to tell him to take a hike?? Yes, indeed, of course. I don't know the difference between US and European laws here--but most companies do not allow you to share competitive information learned from one company to the next. So in the case of a disgruntled employee fired at RX or AH deciding to unload that company's source code with us--we're to stay clear away from it--have nothing to do with the code or with him. Just because of simple integrity? I appear to value it more than you. In America, your integrity/character defines you, it's the beginning of your essence. Integrity is also something that can't be taught or fixed, a very important point in business--I've learned that once I detect problems with a person's integrity, best to minimize interaction with that individual. (Suppose that, before we find out, he has already submitted a few patches that have been applied. Would we undo all of these patches, because of 'simple integrity'?) Indeed. Of course. In a heartbeat. It's --should I add: of course ?- not the intention to copy anything, just gather some ideas. Close enough to be the same thing--and it doesn't reflect very well on you for you to try to make such a distinction. Keep in mind, Andreas, Apache Geronimo is already running into headaches, apparently including complaints on architectural similarities: http://incubator.apache.org/projects/geronimo/20031031_jboss.pdf My point exactly: how are we going to make sure of that if we're not even meant to look at their internals? (Who knows, maybe it's 0.47% already... If nobody has looked at their code, then it is 0%--anything else is coincidence. Are you by any chance familiar with (--Picasso's, I think...): Bad artists copy, good artists --steal. Thankfully, no. Glen __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
RE: Just a small question...
I really appreciate your enthusiasm and am very happy, upon you finding something possibly of use to FOP on another ML, of your bringing it back to the team. We should just be careful in this particular case, however. (BTW, you may also wish to look at Xalan, Batik, and Cocoon for other ideas--*that* code we should be able to use directly.) Glen --- Andreas L. Delmelle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: Andreas L. Delmelle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] snip / Again, I *do* appreciate your concerns for the project as a whole, but I strongly doubt whether these should be a reason to remain blind to other peoples' approaches. To summarize: it's all about learning from *their* mistakes as well, not? :) Cheers, Andreas __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
Re: Just a small question...
Andreas, Andreas L. Delmelle wrote: Picked this one up @ mulberry: In RenderX XEP, an XSL FO formatter, the preprocessor is written in XSLT; it is a complex stylesheet of moderate size, and it does what is best to do in XML manipulation language. If you look into XEP's main jar (e.g. xep372_trial.jar), you can find the preprocessor stylesheet under com/renderx/xep/pre/processor.xsl. This stylesheet is the main reason why XT is always needed in the classpath to run XEP. Does anybody here have an idea of what exactly is meant by this? It performs the most trivial preprocessing: strips namespaces, expands some shorthands, normalizes tables with no fo:table-row, etc. etc; things that are more easily expressed/debugged in XPath than in Java. Best regards, Nikolai Grigoriev RenderX
RE: Just a small question...
-Original Message- From: Nikolai Grigoriev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you look into XEP's main jar (e.g. xep372_trial.jar), you can find the preprocessor stylesheet under com/renderx/xep/pre/processor.xsl. This stylesheet is the main reason why XT is always needed in the classpath to run XEP. Ouch! I just knew there was something obvious I was overlooking :) Does anybody here have an idea of what exactly is meant by this? It performs the most trivial preprocessing: strips namespaces, expands some shorthands, normalizes tables with no fo:table-row, etc. etc; ^ One of the kinds of things I was thinking about... things that are more easily expressed/debugged in XPath than in Java. ... and a few more. I'll be following up on this, that's for sure. Thanks a lot for pointing this out! Cheers, Andreas
RE: Just a small question...
--- Andreas L. Delmelle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: Nikolai Grigoriev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you look into XEP's main jar (e.g. xep372_trial.jar), you can find the preprocessor stylesheet under com/renderx/xep/pre/processor.xsl. This stylesheet is the main reason why XT is always needed in the classpath to run XEP. snip/ I'll be following up on this, that's for sure. Please do *not* share anything you find with the team--We don't need any you-stole-our-code headaches from the commercial implementations. Thanks a lot for pointing this out! Be careful, Andreas--RenderX or AntennaHouse code should not be in FOP--nor should FOP developers even be looking at its internals. Matter of simple integrity. Stay away from their work--it's not worth it!!! At worst, it's illegal, at best you're taking away the reward--from everyone!--of coming up with a comparable implementation. I don't want FOP tarnished with 0.001% of RenderX or AntennaHouse code (or inspired code). If we can't provide a comparable implementation, then let us lose honorably. If we can, we can then enjoy the satisfaction of having done it the honest way, not by copying work! Thanks, Glen __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
