Re: [Freedos-user] upgrade my PC from FD 1.1 to FD 1.2 RE: to Rugxulo AUG 12, 2017

[Dale E Sterner]

Nice thinking, now to get the camera companies to use it.
I like. Keep the ball rolling.

cheers
DS



On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 19:19:10 -0400 "TJ Edmister"
 writes:
> MS implemented an arbitrary limit of 32GB for FAT32 volumes, but with 
>  
> third-party tools much larger ones are possible (up to 2TB?). Maybe 
> those  
> flash cards could be reformatted and used in the camera with FAT32 
> instead.
> 
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 06:27:01 -0400, Dale E Sterner 
>   
> wrote:
> 
> > I've seen a hand full of links for newly revised dos
> > games here.
> > I could use exFAT support for dos I read camera chips
> > into dos and play them on QV. I couldn't read my
> > brother in laws & my cousins new camera chips.
> > DOS usually dos better with chips. QV is
> > really good.
> >
> >
> > DS
> 
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] upgrade my PC from FD 1.1 to FD 1.2 RE: to Rugxulo AUG 12, 2017

[dmccunney]

On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 7:19 PM, TJ Edmister  wrote:
> MS implemented an arbitrary limit of 32GB for FAT32 volumes, but with
> third-party tools much larger ones are possible (up to 2TB?). Maybe those
> flash cards could be reformatted and used in the camera with FAT32 instead.

The volume size limitation is in the Windows utility that *formats*
the drive.  As of Win2K, 32GB was the size limit.  I believe it's
higher in later versions. The FAT32 file system can handle volumes up
to 2 TiB by default with 512 byte sectors, and up to 16 TiB if 4K disk
sectors are used.  (Being able to *use* 4K sectors is a whole other
hardware issue.)

An issue for cards my be hardware.  For instance, two of my Android
tablets accept external microSD cards up to 32GB.  This is not an
Android limit - it's a hardware limit on the slot the card plugs into.
The slot in the tablet is SDHC.  For larger volume sizes, it would
need to be SDXC.  My production tablet accepts larger volumes, but I
have no present need to do so.

I haven't used Compact Flash cards in years, and don't know the
corresponding limitations.

Dale might well be able to reformat the cards to FAT32 (but not from
DOS!) and siccessfully read them.  But they are his relative's cards
from their cameras, and they might not want that done.

For practical purposes, he's SOL on being able to read his relatives
cards in a DOS system.
__
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Re: [Freedos-user] upgrade my PC from FD 1.1 to FD 1.2 RE: to Rugxulo AUG 12, 2017

[TJ Edmister]

MS implemented an arbitrary limit of 32GB for FAT32 volumes, but with  
third-party tools much larger ones are possible (up to 2TB?). Maybe those  
flash cards could be reformatted and used in the camera with FAT32 instead.


On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 06:27:01 -0400, Dale E Sterner   
wrote:



I've seen a hand full of links for newly revised dos
games here.
I could use exFAT support for dos I read camera chips
into dos and play them on QV. I couldn't read my
brother in laws & my cousins new camera chips.
DOS usually dos better with chips. QV is
really good.


DS


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Re: [Freedos-user] upgrade my PC from FD 1.1 to FD 1.2 RE: to Jerome Shidel AUG 15, 2017

[Pierre LaMontagne]

That only supports UHCI-type controllers. So USB is not well supported 
under DOS (due to heavy complexity).


Boo Hiss. Figures.

Although some (modern?) BIOSes can treat a jump drive as hard disk (but 
you can't hotswap / add+remove them, you have to reboot). Your PIII 
might not be new enough for that support, dunno.


I'm pretty sure not… It's not a big deal though (especially since that 
PC is not my sole PC) if USB isn't supported in FD, as long as the 
optical drive works, which it does, thankfully. Sure, a working USB port 
would be nice, but since it doesn't seem to be an option, no biggie.


(Stating the obvious: you may wish to try Linux [old ZipSlack? TinyCore? 
antiX?] or FreeBSD or similar for better USB access.


I already have another PC with Linux Mint installed on a much more 
modern BIOS (about 2 years old). USB on it works well (of course, its 
USB 2.0).


My PIII PC is simply a leftover PC that I resurrected from the closet & 
no longer used to put FD 1.1 on it as a way to be able to use the tons 
of Floppy software on it that I had on HD 3.5s.(I ran a BBS for about 10 
years (until 1996) and amassed quite a collection of floppies.I even 
have some very old 360KB 5.25" floppies). Those were mostly from my 
pre-HD era.:)


Dual booting shouldn't be too hard.)

Not really, but that's something I usually don't consider.Nothing 
against it, it's just not for me unless, of course, it's a have-to case.


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Re: [Freedos-user] upgrade my PC from FD 1.1 to FD 1.2 RE: to Rugxulo AUG 12, 2017

[Dale E Sterner]

I've seen a hand full of links for newly revised dos
games here.
I could use exFAT support for dos I read camera chips
into dos and play them on QV. I couldn't read my
brother in laws & my cousins new camera chips.
DOS usually dos better with chips. QV is
really good.


DS



On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 14:50:46 -0400 dmccunney 
writes:
> On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 2:42 PM, Dale E Sterner  
> wrote:
> > Many people like a challenge. The big plus for exFAT
> > is its huge file size and fast operating speed.
> 
> They like a challenge where *they* will benefit from working on it.
> See "scratching a personal itch" in the post you are responding to.
> 
> Find one who uses DOS and needs exFAT support.  Good luck.
> 
> > These people who write DOS games face that
> > difficulty all the time; they might already have
> > some ideas. Time will tell.
> 
> Who still writes DOS games?  Game development has nearly all shifted
> to Windows, with some slopping over onto Linux.
> 
> There are lots of old DOS games still being played, which is why
> DOSBox exists.  I'm unaware of any significant new ones.  Got one to
> point at?,
> 
> > cheers
> > DS
> __
> Dennis
> 
>
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**
>From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***


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[Freedos-user] upgrade my PC from FD 1.1 to FD 1.2 RE: to Rugxulo AUG 12, 2017

[Pierre LaMontagne]

/If you are just browsing packages. It is far better to look at the 
package “group” pages. Like the Utilities Group page,/


//

Agreed, it is easier, at least, for me it was.That is what I used, I 
didn't even know about the complete listing when I browsed the group 
listings.:)


Those are some FreeDOS kernel version numbers. The current version is 2042.

Got it, thanx.


That's basically what I  did.'Fraid I don't even know what "JEMM" is.


Thanx for the link, I D/Led JEMM. It sounds great!

There are software development and programing language packages 
available. They are some of the tools that can be used to create DOS 
software.


Never heard of such, well, maybe vaguely.Makes sense now, though.The 
only programming I ever done in DOS was with bat files.


It may not have locked-up, the progress bar can stop for several minutes.

Oops, although I did wait several minutes & I may have neglected to look 
at the disk activity LED, I still may should've waited longer??? I 
didn't know the backup process was prone to long periods of seemingly 
inactivity…


The standard backup process in normal mode uses several xcopy and copy 
commands. There many different things that could cause an issue during 
the process.


Agreed, but I wouldn't think that just copy and xcopy would cause a 
lock-up, though


cat is generally used to send the contents of a file (or device) to stdout.

Good to know.But, why mention such in a FreeDOS environment?  Seems like 
I remember seeing it in Linux???


There is some support for USB devices in the util/usbdos packages. But, 
I’ve never messed with it and don’t know what things it supports.


Got it, hopefully there will be something that I can use.

Thanx for all the help & useful links!

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Re: [Freedos-user] upgrade my PC from FD 1.1 to FD 1.2 RE: to Rugxulo AUG 12, 2017

[geneb]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017, Ralf Quint wrote:


There are however patents on the way long file names are implemented on
FAT32 (https://www.google.com/patents/US5579517?dq=5,579,517,
https://www.google.com/patents/US5758352?dq=5,758,352)...



As far as I can tell, both of those patents have expired.

g.

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Re: [Freedos-user] upgrade my PC from FD 1.1 to FD 1.2 RE: to Rugxulo AUG 12, 2017

[dmccunney]

On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 2:42 PM, Dale E Sterner  wrote:
> Many people like a challenge. The big plus for exFAT
> is its huge file size and fast operating speed.

They like a challenge where *they* will benefit from working on it.
See "scratching a personal itch" in the post you are responding to.

Find one who uses DOS and needs exFAT support.  Good luck.

> These people who write DOS games face that
> difficulty all the time; they might already have
> some ideas. Time will tell.

Who still writes DOS games?  Game development has nearly all shifted
to Windows, with some slopping over onto Linux.

There are lots of old DOS games still being played, which is why
DOSBox exists.  I'm unaware of any significant new ones.  Got one to
point at?,

> cheers
> DS
__
Dennis

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Re: [Freedos-user] upgrade my PC from FD 1.1 to FD 1.2 RE: to Rugxulo AUG 12, 2017

[Dale E Sterner]

Many people like a challenge. The big plus for exFAT
is its huge file size and fast operating speed.
These people who write DOS games face that
difficulty all the time; they might already have
some ideas. Time will tell.

cheers
DS



On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 14:27:45 -0400 dmccunney 
writes:
> On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 2:13 PM, Dale E Sterner  
> wrote:
> > On the other hand there seem to be a number of good
> > open sorce programmers out there. Why not create
> > another file system that does the same thing as exFAT
> > but make it free. Flash card makers are paying dear
> > to use exFAT. FREE would push MS out of the exFAT
> > business.
> 
> Won't happen.  Who would actually do this?  What's in it for them?
> 
> Contributors to open source projects generally have one of three
> reasons for doing so:
> 
> They work for a company like Google of Facebook that uses open 
> source
> software and pays them to work on what they use
> 
> They are scratching a personal itch, and working on something they 
> use
> 
> They get bragging rights (like "I have commit access to the Linux 
> kernel repo!")
> 
> Reverse engineered exFAT support already exists for Linux and a few
> other things besides Windows.  There is no point to re-inventing 
> that
> wheel, and it might be a real challenge to make something that 
> looked
> and acted like and was interoperable with exFAT *without* stepping 
> on
> MS's patent toes.
> 
> What you want is exFAT support from DOS.  It might be possible to
> adapt existing Linux support.  If you can find programmers willing 
> to
> spend the time and effort to do this, more power to you.  I don't
> think you can.  Why would they *bother*?
> 
> I'm afraid you are stuck with camera storage volumes you can't 
> access from DOS.
> __
> Dennis
> 
>
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**
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http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***


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Re: [Freedos-user] upgrade my PC from FD 1.1 to FD 1.2 RE: to Rugxulo AUG 12, 2017

[dmccunney]

On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 2:15 PM, Ralf Quint  wrote:

>> MS will jump on you if you try to use MS code.  If you reverse engineer and
>> roll your own access programs, MS won't go after you.  It's in their
>> interest to have the format readable on everything.  As noted, support
>> on Linux exists.

> In case of a patent, it is irrelevant on how you arrive at the working
> code. You either pay up or get the heck sued out of you...

Nope.  Patents are all about the money, and protecting things the
patent holder thinks have value.

How likely you are to *get* sued is a matter of whether the patent
holder thinks they are losing money from your infringement, and that
they can stop the losses, and perhaps win damages in a suit.

Explain to me why MS hasn't instituted patent suits against the folks
who implemented exFAT support in Linux?

> Ralf
__
Dennis

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Re: [Freedos-user] upgrade my PC from FD 1.1 to FD 1.2 RE: to Rugxulo AUG 12, 2017

[dmccunney]

On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 2:13 PM, Dale E Sterner  wrote:
> On the other hand there seem to be a number of good
> open sorce programmers out there. Why not create
> another file system that does the same thing as exFAT
> but make it free. Flash card makers are paying dear
> to use exFAT. FREE would push MS out of the exFAT
> business.

Won't happen.  Who would actually do this?  What's in it for them?

Contributors to open source projects generally have one of three
reasons for doing so:

They work for a company like Google of Facebook that uses open source
software and pays them to work on what they use

They are scratching a personal itch, and working on something they use

They get bragging rights (like "I have commit access to the Linux kernel repo!")

Reverse engineered exFAT support already exists for Linux and a few
other things besides Windows.  There is no point to re-inventing that
wheel, and it might be a real challenge to make something that looked
and acted like and was interoperable with exFAT *without* stepping on
MS's patent toes.

What you want is exFAT support from DOS.  It might be possible to
adapt existing Linux support.  If you can find programmers willing to
spend the time and effort to do this, more power to you.  I don't
think you can.  Why would they *bother*?

I'm afraid you are stuck with camera storage volumes you can't access from DOS.
__
Dennis

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Re: [Freedos-user] upgrade my PC from FD 1.1 to FD 1.2 RE: to Rugxulo AUG 12, 2017

[Ralf Quint]

On 8/14/2017 9:52 AM, dmccunney wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 1:16 AM, Ralf Quint  wrote:
>
>> And as exFAT is a encumbered with software patents by Micro$oft, there
>> won't be any support in FreeDOS (or any other Open Source OS) in the
>> foreseeable future...
> So is FAT16/FAT32, but those are supported pretty much everywhere.
Sorry, but that is not correct. There are no patents on the basic
workings on FAT16 and FAT32, that's why everyone is free to implement
their own. It is only exFAT that is covered by patents.
There are however patents on the way long file names are implemented on
FAT32 (https://www.google.com/patents/US5579517?dq=5,579,517,
https://www.google.com/patents/US5758352?dq=5,758,352)...
>
> MS will jump on you if you try to use MS code.  If you reverse engineer and
> roll your own access programs, MS won't go after you.  It's in their
> interest to have the format readable on everything.  As noted, support
> on Linux exists.
In case of a patent, it is irrelevant on how you arrive at the working
code. You either pay up or get the heck sued out of you...

Ralf


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Re: [Freedos-user] upgrade my PC from FD 1.1 to FD 1.2 RE: to Rugxulo AUG 12, 2017

[Dale E Sterner]

On the other hand there seem to be a number of good
open sorce programmers out there. Why not create
another file system that does the same thing as exFAT
but make it free. Flash card makers are paying dear
to use exFAT. FREE would push MS out of the exFAT
business.

cheers
DS



On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 12:52:20 -0400 dmccunney 
writes:
> On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 1:16 AM, Ralf Quint  
> wrote:
> 
> > And as exFAT is a encumbered with software patents by Micro$oft, 
> there
> > won't be any support in FreeDOS (or any other Open Source OS) in 
> the
> > foreseeable future...
> 
> So is FAT16/FAT32, but those are supported pretty much everywhere.
> 
> MS will jump on you if you try to use MS code.  If you reverse 
> engineer and
> roll your own access programs, MS won't go after you.  It's in their
> interest to have the format readable on everything.  As noted, 
> support
> on Linux exists.
> 
> The issue for FreeDOS is less patent protection, and more "Who will
> write the needed code?"
> 
> But "Who will write the needed code?" is an issue for FreeDOS in 
> general.
> 
> > Ralf
> __
> Dennis
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519
> 
>
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**
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http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***


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Re: [Freedos-user] upgrade my PC from FD 1.1 to FD 1.2 RE: to Rugxulo AUG 12, 2017

[dmccunney]

On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 1:16 AM, Ralf Quint  wrote:

> And as exFAT is a encumbered with software patents by Micro$oft, there
> won't be any support in FreeDOS (or any other Open Source OS) in the
> foreseeable future...

So is FAT16/FAT32, but those are supported pretty much everywhere.

MS will jump on you if you try to use MS code.  If you reverse engineer and
roll your own access programs, MS won't go after you.  It's in their
interest to have the format readable on everything.  As noted, support
on Linux exists.

The issue for FreeDOS is less patent protection, and more "Who will
write the needed code?"

But "Who will write the needed code?" is an issue for FreeDOS in general.

> Ralf
__
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Re: [Freedos-user] upgrade my PC from FD 1.1 to FD 1.2 RE: to Rugxulo AUG 12, 2017

[Thomas Mueller]

from Ralf Quint:
> 
> On 8/13/2017 4:56 PM, Dale E Sterner wrote:
> > New cameras are using a new format that I can't read.
> > I can read FAT 16 & FAT 32. Web search said that
> > they are using FAT 64. FDISK doesn't even detect it.
> > SD chips go undetected with this new format.
> As Dennis already mentioned, newer cameras/SD cards (over 32GB)  are
> using exFAT (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExFAT). There is no such
> thing as FAT64.
> And as exFAT is a encumbered with software patents by Micro$oft, there
> won't be any support in FreeDOS (or any other Open Source OS) in the
> foreseeable future...

FreeBSD ports has fusefs-exfat, but nothing in pkgsrc meaning nothing for 
NetBSD.

Linux has packages for ExFAT: fuse-exfat and exfat-utils (from Gentoo packages, 
in category sys-fs).

I didn't think Haiku had ExFAT support, but look what I find:

$ ls haiku/haiku/src/add-ons/kernel/file_systems/exfat
CachedBlock.h   DirectoryIterator.cpp   Inode.h 
Utility.h   exfat.h
DataStream.cpp  DirectoryIterator.h Jamfile 
Volume.cpp  kernel_interface.cpp
DataStream.hInode.cpp   Utility.cpp Volume.h

This is not to say these implementations have all the capabilities of ExFAT on 
MS-Windows, and then there is the MS patent and licensing issues.

Tom


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Re: [Freedos-user] upgrade my PC from FD 1.1 to FD 1.2 RE: to Rugxulo AUG 12, 2017

[Ralf Quint]

On 8/13/2017 4:56 PM, Dale E Sterner wrote:
> New cameras are using a new format that I can't read.
> I can read FAT 16 & FAT 32. Web search said that
> they are using FAT 64. FDISK doesn't even detect it.
> SD chips go undetected with this new format.
As Dennis already mentioned, newer cameras/SD cards (over 32GB)  are
using exFAT (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExFAT). There is no such
thing as FAT64.
And as exFAT is a encumbered with software patents by Micro$oft, there
won't be any support in FreeDOS (or any other Open Source OS) in the
foreseeable future...

Ralf


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Re: [Freedos-user] upgrade my PC from FD 1.1 to FD 1.2 RE: to Rugxulo AUG 12, 2017

[dmccunney]

On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 7:56 PM, Dale E Sterner  wrote:
> New cameras are using a new format that I can't read.
> I can read FAT 16 & FAT 32. Web search said that
> they are using FAT 64. FDISK doesn't even detect it.
> SD chips go undetected with this new format.

I think you mean exFAT.  It's supported under Windows and Linux.  DOS
support doesn't exist, and is unlikely to.
__
Dennis

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Re: [Freedos-user] upgrade my PC from FD 1.1 to FD 1.2 RE: to Rugxulo AUG 12, 2017

[Dale E Sterner]

New cameras are using a new format that I can't read.
I can read FAT 16 & FAT 32. Web search said that
they are using FAT 64. FDISK doesn't even detect it.
SD chips go undetected with this new format.


cheers
DS


On Sun, 13 Aug 2017 13:01:54 -0500 Rugxulo  writes:
> Hi,
> 
> On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 7:08 PM, Jerome Shidel  
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Aug 12, 2017, at 7:32 PM, Pierre LaMontagne 
>  wrote:
> >>
> >> Isn't USB 1.1 & 2.0 supposed to be compatible? My 2.0 flash drive 
> wasn't recognized on
> >> my FD 1.1 USB PC. Is there a util that can list available drives 
> like in in Win & in Linux?
> >
> > There is some support for USB devices in the util/usbdos packages. 
> But, I’ve never messed
> > with it and don’t know what things it supports.
> >
> > 
>
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/repositories/1.2/
pkg-html/usbdos.html
> 
> That only supports UHCI-type controllers. So USB is not well 
> supported
> under DOS (due to heavy complexity).
> 
> Although some (modern?) BIOSes can treat a jump drive as hard disk
> (but you can't hotswap / add+remove them, you have to reboot). Your
> PIII might not be new enough for that support, dunno.
> 
> (Stating the obvious: you may wish to try Linux [old ZipSlack?
> TinyCore? antiX?] or FreeBSD or similar for better USB access. Dual
> booting shouldn't be too hard.)
> 
>
-
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**
>From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***


Police Urge Americans to Carry This With Them at All Times
The Observer
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5990e76d576e0676d0932st01duc

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Re: [Freedos-user] upgrade my PC from FD 1.1 to FD 1.2 RE: to Rugxulo AUG 12, 2017

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 7:08 PM, Jerome Shidel  wrote:
>
>> On Aug 12, 2017, at 7:32 PM, Pierre LaMontagne  wrote:
>>
>> Isn't USB 1.1 & 2.0 supposed to be compatible? My 2.0 flash drive wasn't 
>> recognized on
>> my FD 1.1 USB PC. Is there a util that can list available drives like in in 
>> Win & in Linux?
>
> There is some support for USB devices in the util/usbdos packages. But, I’ve 
> never messed
> with it and don’t know what things it supports.
>
> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/repositories/1.2/pkg-html/usbdos.html

That only supports UHCI-type controllers. So USB is not well supported
under DOS (due to heavy complexity).

Although some (modern?) BIOSes can treat a jump drive as hard disk
(but you can't hotswap / add+remove them, you have to reboot). Your
PIII might not be new enough for that support, dunno.

(Stating the obvious: you may wish to try Linux [old ZipSlack?
TinyCore? antiX?] or FreeBSD or similar for better USB access. Dual
booting shouldn't be too hard.)

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Re: [Freedos-user] upgrade my PC from FD 1.1 to FD 1.2 RE: to Rugxulo AUG 12, 2017

[Jerome Shidel]

> On Aug 12, 2017, at 7:32 PM, Pierre LaMontagne  wrote:
> 
> (I know it's the same thing, but it's easier to me to only have to look in 
> Sound for relevant sound/music tools than scroll through a list of hundreds 
> of programs, even if sorted / ordered.)
> 
> For me too, in fact I used that very same software listing that your link 
> provides to build my own repo on my mainWin 7 PC in hopes to transfer them 
> all to the FD PC via a USB Flash Drive.Now though, it looks like I'll have to 
> resort to using optical drives instead.

The comparison chart cane used for a complete listing of software. But, that is 
not its purpose. It is to see at a glance what changes have occurred from on 
version to the next. 

If you are just browsing packages. It is far better to look at the package 
“group” pages. Like the Utilities Group page,

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/repositories/1.2/pkg-html/group-util.html

On that page, you even get to see brief descriptions for the packages.

> 
> So, obviously, kernel and shell are supremely important, but the changes were 
> minor (2040 -> 2042) or even non-existent (FreeCOM).
> 
> Sorry, but I don't know what you mean by(2040 -> 2042) …

Those are some FreeDOS kernel version numbers. The current version is 2042.

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/repositories/1.2/pkg-html/kernel.html

> I wouldn't recommend to overload yourself with worries about updating 
> literally everything. I dislike having a billion files that are all falsely 
> considered "important".
> 
> I agree with that, trouble is, I'm not sure what's important or what may 
> become important eventually.So, for me, it's easier & quicker to just do it 
> all (I guess you could call that the "hoarder" approach):)
> 
> I would suggest focusing only on your most commonly used utils and system 
> drivers (e.g. JEMM).
> 
> That's basically what I did.'Fraid I don't even know what "JEMM" is.

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/repositories/1.2/pkg-html/jemm.html

> 
> Honestly, a lot of stuff hasn't seen major changes.
> 
> That's what I've come to the conclusion of too, just wasn't sure if that was 
> the case given the amount of time that's occurred between my initial 1.1 
> install and now.
> 
> And for things like compilers (e.g. FPC), the upgrade path is usually to 
> delete and reinstall from scratch anyways.
> 
> Compilers?In an OS?Way beyond me!:)I thought compilers were only used in 
> programming languages, like Pascal, C++, assembly etc.… (???)

There are software development and programing language packages available. They 
are some of the tools that can be used to create
DOS software.

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/repositories/1.2/pkg-html/group-devel.html

> 
> Yes, always have backups, if possible, but I don't think you need to backup 
> literally everything.
> 
> Well, I wanted to err on the side of caution (given my luck)so I tried to do 
> the FD install backup, but for some unknown reason, the backup failed, the 
> machine seemed to lock-up.Upon rebooting, I re-started the install W/O the 
> backup option & had success that way.

It may not have locked-up, the progress bar can stop for several minutes. It 
depends on how much data is being copied in each segment of the backup process. 
However, it may have. It is hard to say. The standard backup process in normal 
mode uses several xcopy and copy commands. There many different things that 
could cause an issue during the process.

> 
> I guess you could always cat or dd from atop *nix the relevant partition into 
> a .img file.
> 
> cat or dd ??Is that the same as "DIR"? (Sorry, you lost me here.)
> 

cat and dd are Unix, BSD, Linux and MAC command line utilities. (ports are 
probably available for windows as well).

dd can be easily used to copy a partition or whole drive to an image file. (or 
the other way around as well).

https://ss64.com/bash/dd.html

cat is generally used to send the contents of a file (or device) to stdout. 

https://ss64.com/bash/cat.html

> Or, for Windows, use something like this:
> 
> Thanx, I ended up using a different util though to produce a boot-able CD 
> from a FDOS 1.2 *.iso file.
> 
> take up a ton of space but are also quickly updated / obsoleted, so it's not 
> worth preserving them to backup, IMHO, without a good reason.)
> 
> Again, for me, difficult to determine what is & what's not important.Space, 
> for me, on that PC is not relevant.
> 
> Is this an ancient machine?
> 
> Not ancient, but old! It's a Pentium III/733mhz, Floppy drive, CD/DVD optical 
> drive, 30gb HD, 4gb RAM, AGP video card (not sure what speed & how much vid 
> RAM), & the USB ports (all 2 of 'em) aren't compatible, evidently, with my 
> other networked PCs (I think, but not sure, it's a USB 1.1 vs. a USB 2.0 
> issue. Or it could be FAT 16 vs FAT 32, again, not sure.For now though, while 
> I determine the issue, 

[Freedos-user] upgrade my PC from FD 1.1 to FD 1.2 RE: to Rugxulo AUG 12, 2017

[Pierre LaMontagne]

(I know it's the same thing, but it's easier to me to only have to look 
in Sound for relevant sound/music tools than scroll through a list of 
hundreds of programs, even if sorted / ordered.)


For me too, in fact I used that very same software listing that your 
link provides to build my own repo on my mainWin 7 PC in hopes to 
transfer them all to the FD PC via a USB Flash Drive.Now though, it 
looks like I'll have to resort to using optical drives instead.


So, obviously, kernel and shell are supremely important, but the changes 
were minor (2040 -> 2042) or even non-existent (FreeCOM).


Sorry, but I don't know what you mean by(2040 -> 2042) …

I wouldn't recommend to overload yourself with worries about updating 
literally everything. I dislike having a billion files that are all 
falsely considered "important".


I agree with that, trouble is, I'm not sure what's important or what may 
become important eventually.So, for me, it's easier & quicker to just do 
it all (I guess you could call that the "hoarder" approach):)


I would suggest focusing only on your most commonly used utils and 
system drivers (e.g. JEMM).


That's basically what I did.'Fraid I don't even know what "JEMM" is.

Honestly, a lot of stuff hasn't seen major changes.

That's what I've come to the conclusion of too, just wasn't sure if that 
was the case given the amount of time that's occurred between my initial 
1.1 install and now.


And for things like compilers (e.g. FPC), the upgrade path is usually to 
delete and reinstall from scratch anyways.


Compilers?In an OS?Way beyond me!:)I thought compilers were only used in 
programming languages, like Pascal, C++, assembly etc.… (???)


Yes, always have backups, if possible, but I don't think you need to 
backup literally everything.


Well, I wanted to err on the side of caution (given my luck)so I tried 
to do the FD install backup, but for some unknown reason, the backup 
failed, the machine seemed to lock-up.Upon rebooting, I re-started the 
install W/O the backup option & had success that way.


I guess you could always cat or dd from atop *nix the relevant partition 
into a .img file.


cat or dd ??Is that the same as "DIR"? (Sorry, you lost me here.)

Or, for Windows, use something like this:

Thanx, I ended up using a different util though to produce a boot-able 
CD from a FDOS 1.2 *.iso file.


take up a ton of space but are also quickly updated / obsoleted, so it's 
not worth preserving them to backup, IMHO, without a good reason.)


Again, for me, difficult to determine what is & what's not 
important.Space, for me, on that PC is not relevant.


Is this an ancient machine?

Not ancient, but old! It's a Pentium III/733mhz, Floppy drive, CD/DVD 
optical drive, 30gb HD, 4gb RAM, AGP video card (not sure what speed & 
how much vid RAM), & the USB ports (all 2 of 'em) aren't compatible, 
evidently, with my other networked PCs (I think, but not sure, it's a 
USB 1.1 vs. a USB 2.0 issue. Or it could be FAT 16 vs FAT 32, again, not 
sure.For now though, while I determine the issue, I'll be using the 
optical drives for any DATA transfers..


Why can't he backup to USB jump drive instead?

Isn't USB 1.1 & 2.0 supposed to be compatible?My 2.0 flash drive wasn't 
recognized on my FD 1.1 USB PC.Is there a util that can list available 
drives like in in Win & in Linux?


A good boot floppy can be useful, I'm not disagreeing.But overall it's a 
very limited medium for backups.


Agreed, but that's what I ended-up using. (a boot-able Floppy with my 
version of *.bat & *.sys files.)



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Re: [Freedos-user] upgrade my PC from FD 1.1 to FD 1.2

[Jerome Shidel]

Hello, 

> On Aug 10, 2017, at 12:59 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 7:11 PM, Jerome Shidel  wrote:
>> 
>> Just replacing the COMMAND and SYS files won’t really give you 1.2. It would
>> just be 1.1 an upgraded kernel. Take a look at the software comparison chart
>> on the official FreeDOS software repository.
>> 
>> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/repositories/1.2/pkg-html/comparison.html
> 
> Or you could just look closer at specific categories that are relevant
> to your usage:
> 
> http://www.freedos.org/software/
> 
> BASE, Archivers, Boot tools, Development, Editors, Emulators, Games,
> Networking, Sound, Utilities
> 
> (I know it's the same thing, but it's easier to me to only have to
> look in Sound for relevant sound/music tools than scroll through a
> list of hundreds of programs, even if sorted / ordered.)

Yep, it is the same thing. In fact, the links on that page point to the 
repository one step down from the main repository index page at:

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/repositories/1.2/pkg-html/

Excluding any 3rd party charts and software repositories (like mine at
https://fd.lod.bz/repos/current/ ). As far as I know, the only place to see 
what package versions “shipped” with which version of FreeDOS is through
the comparison chart in the 1.2 repository.

> So, obviously, kernel and shell are supremely important, but the
> changes were minor (2040 -> 2042) or even non-existent (FreeCOM).
> 
> I wouldn't recommend to overload yourself with worries about updating
> literally everything. I dislike having a billion files that are all
> falsely considered "important".
> 
> I would suggest focusing only on your most commonly used utils and
> system drivers (e.g. JEMM).
> 
> Honestly, a lot of stuff hasn't seen major changes. And for things
> like compilers (e.g. FPC), the upgrade path is usually to delete and
> reinstall from scratch anyways.

Yep, glancing at the chart, only about 12 packages in BASE were updated 
in the years since the 1.1 release. 

(A little sarcastic) Its good there having only been few BASE updates. They 
are stable and bug free.

>> The first step in that process would be to make a known good bootable
>> backup. Format a floppy and preform a sys transfer to that diskette. That 
>> way you
>> can easily boot that floppy and restore your kernel. I would also copy your
>> current autoexec.bat and config.sys to a directory on the floppy along with 
>> any
>> drivers you may require.
> 
> Is this an ancient machine? Why can't he backup to USB jump drive
> instead? They certainly have higher capacity (and are dirt cheap
> nowadays). A good boot floppy can be useful, I'm not disagreeing.  ;-)
>  But overall it's a very limited medium for backups.

Good question. 

A USB bootable backup would be very nice. But, it could be difficult to make.
For instance, he may not be able to boot the internal drive and maintain 
access to a USB flash drive from DOS. If that is the case, he may be able 
to boot a copy of a 1.2 USB stick and convert it over to a copy of his 1.1
install. 

>> Also, please be sure you have good backups for any games you have. I
>> wouldn’t expect any serious problems. But, you never know. On top of that, a 
>> hard
>> drive can go bad or even completely fail without warning.
> 
> For proprietary games, yes, back them up. Even CD media is prone to
> failure these days. Otherwise, if the game is freeware, just backup
> config and save files (and maybe mods / add-ons), not the original
> data itself.

Yep, backup, backup, backup. 

Years ago, I imaged all of my DOS Floppies, CDs and DVDs. Those images
are backed up in several locations. Just like baby pictures, my old computer
software is impossible to replace. :-)






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Re: [Freedos-user] upgrade my PC from FD 1.1 to FD 1.2

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 7:11 PM, Jerome Shidel  wrote:
>
> Just replacing the COMMAND and SYS files won’t really give you 1.2. It would
> just be 1.1 an upgraded kernel. Take a look at the software comparison chart
> on the official FreeDOS software repository.
>
> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/repositories/1.2/pkg-html/comparison.html

Or you could just look closer at specific categories that are relevant
to your usage:

http://www.freedos.org/software/

BASE, Archivers, Boot tools, Development, Editors, Emulators, Games,
Networking, Sound, Utilities

(I know it's the same thing, but it's easier to me to only have to
look in Sound for relevant sound/music tools than scroll through a
list of hundreds of programs, even if sorted / ordered.)

So, obviously, kernel and shell are supremely important, but the
changes were minor (2040 -> 2042) or even non-existent (FreeCOM).

I wouldn't recommend to overload yourself with worries about updating
literally everything. I dislike having a billion files that are all
falsely considered "important".

I would suggest focusing only on your most commonly used utils and
system drivers (e.g. JEMM).

Honestly, a lot of stuff hasn't seen major changes. And for things
like compilers (e.g. FPC), the upgrade path is usually to delete and
reinstall from scratch anyways.

> The FreeDOS 1.2 installer will backup your config files. Also, if the new
> system directory (C:\FDOS), already exists, it will also backup and replace 
> it.
> So, make sure you have plenty of free disk space.

Yes, always have backups, if possible, but I don't think you need to
backup literally everything.

I guess you could always cat or dd from atop *nix the relevant
partition into a .img file. Or, for Windows, use something like this:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/win32diskimager/

> However, that assume everything works as designed and nothing goes wrong.
> I highly recommend you create your own backup of anything important.

Okay, but anything unmodified from stock builds (e.g. easily available
on reliable online mirrors) isn't worth backing up. You can always
re-download DJGPP or FPC again without worries. (These take up a ton
of space but are also quickly updated / obsoleted, so it's not worth
preserving them to backup, IMHO, without a good reason.)

> The first step in that process would be to make a known good bootable
> backup. Format a floppy and preform a sys transfer to that diskette. That way 
> you
> can easily boot that floppy and restore your kernel. I would also copy your
> current autoexec.bat and config.sys to a directory on the floppy along with 
> any
> drivers you may require.

Is this an ancient machine? Why can't he backup to USB jump drive
instead? They certainly have higher capacity (and are dirt cheap
nowadays). A good boot floppy can be useful, I'm not disagreeing.  ;-)
  But overall it's a very limited medium for backups.

> Also, please be sure you have good backups for any games you have. I
> wouldn’t expect any serious problems. But, you never know. On top of that, a 
> hard
> drive can go bad or even completely fail without warning.

For proprietary games, yes, back them up. Even CD media is prone to
failure these days. Otherwise, if the game is freeware, just backup
config and save files (and maybe mods / add-ons), not the original
data itself.

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Re: [Freedos-user] upgrade my PC from FD 1.1 to FD 1.2

[Jerome Shidel]

Just replacing the COMMAND and SYS files won’t really give you 1.2. It would
just be 1.1 an upgraded kernel. Take a look at the software comparison chart
on the official FreeDOS software repository. 

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/repositories/1.2/pkg-html/comparison.html
 


It shows what is included in 1.0, 1,1 and the 1.2 variations. Also, it shows the
versions that are on the repo. 

Since you probably don’t have a supported NIC in the dedicated machine,
you may even consider installing 1.2 via the repo CD. The CD image is built 
automatically daily, when a package is updated on the repo.

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/repositories/1.2/ 


The FreeDOS 1.2 installer will backup your config files. Also, if the new 
system 
directory (C:\FDOS), already exists, it will also backup and replace it. So, 
make 
sure you have plenty of free disk space.

However, that assume everything works as designed and nothing goes wrong. 
I highly recommend you create your own backup of anything important.

The first step in that process would be to make a known good bootable backup.
Format a floppy and preform a sys transfer to that diskette. That way you can
easily boot that floppy and restore your kernel. I would also copy your current
autoexec.bat and config.sys to a directory on the floppy along with any drivers
you may require.

Also, please be sure you have good backups for any games you have. I wouldn’t
expect any serious problems. But, you never know. On top of that, a hard drive
can go bad or even completely fail without warning. 

Jerome


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[Freedos-user] upgrade my PC from FD 1.1 to FD 1.2

[Pierre LaMontagne]

I have a dedicated PC with FD 1.1 installed on it.I would like to 
upgrade this PC to FD 1.2 without losing any existing folders or root 
Dir files (start-ups, etc…)


Though, I've spent several hours looking on how to do this, I've yet to 
find anything…


I'm currently primarily a Windows user, though I started using PCs with 
MS-DOS many years ago (first OS was MS-DOS version 3.2!). I finally 
gave-in to using Win (very reluctantly) way back in 1995.


Can anyone advise an aged ex-DOS-user?


BTW, my old 1.1 installation works fine, I mostly only use it for 
running old MS-DOS games.  1.1 has run most all my old stuff 
surprisingly well.  The few that didn't run, I don't know if it is 
because of a graphics issue (most likely) or a 1.1 issue.  I didn't know 
if the 1.2 upgrade would fix some of these issues.  I know it would be 
easier to just forego any kind of upgrade, but...



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