Re: [Gimp-user] Re: when even free advertising fails
On Sunday 08 May 2005 16:00, David Marrs wrote: Sven Neumann wrote: Having all possible toggles visible in a toolbar in the image window be a major waste of screen estate. Sven Not being able to maximse the image window to full screen is a major waste of screen estate. All I'm talking about is sacrificing 20 pixels' worth of height. If you don't want it there then switch it off. Besides, I'm not talking about *all* the possible toggles, just the useful and important ones. I started working on this yesterday. When I've finished I'll put together a presentation for the list to consider. Btw, does this list allow attachments. I tried sending this earlier with a screenshot of what I've got so far attached, but without success. If you are making an enhancement request, with mock-ups of the itnerface, the correct thing to do is to open a bugzilla (bugzilla.gnome.org) entry for it, and attach your images in the bug entry. Of course you can discuss the ideas, and invite people over to check your request for enhacment in this list and on the developers list. JS -- ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: when even free advertising fails
David Marrs wrote: Easier for whom? the users or the developers? Since there's only one GIMP set-up anyway, I don't see how it makes a difference; any suggestion I make is going to be a direct result of the default GIMP set-up that I'm using. I'm not biased by Photoshop, PSP or anything else, I'm just acutely aware of the user interface's short comings and I'm trying to address them. Making GIMP newbies (which I'm not, btw) learn the interface until they get used to it only means that they'll get used to the GIMP's short comings, not that they'll go away. It's just the same as how Windows users put up with their interface, all the time forgetting how restrictive it is. When it's all you can see, it becomes normal. It's only after you come back to Windows after spending months away, using a different OS like Linux+Gnome, that you suddenly realise how poor Windows actually is. If Microsoft were trying to get users to migrate from GNU/Linux to Windows, they'd be out of business in weeks. So I think you unwittingly hit the nail on the head with regard to the GIMP's problem: it insists that its users conform to its way of doing things instead of being malleable so that different users with different approaches can tailor it to suit their needs. Its approach obviously works for you, which is why you're happy with it. Just try to remember that your way isn't necessarily the *right* way. I agree 100% with this, very well stated. I think PhotoShop users suffer from this as well as they don't realize the PhotoShop way isn't necessarily the *right* way. Great post! Peace... Tom ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: when even free advertising fails
Hi, David Marrs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So I think you unwittingly hit the nail on the head with regard to the GIMP's problem: it insists that its users conform to its way of doing things instead of being malleable so that different users with different approaches can tailor it to suit their needs. Its approach obviously works for you, which is why you're happy with it. Just try to remember that your way isn't necessarily the *right* way. The GIMP doesn't insist on anything. It is an Open Source project. This means that everyone is invited to help making it better. Noone insists that GIMP should stay the way it is. The developers know very well that there's a lot to improve. That said, can we please stop this thread here and get back to doing something constructive with our free time? Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: when even free advertising fails
On Sun, May 08, 2005 at 10:07:34PM +0100, David Marrs wrote: Carol Spears wrote: it would be better and easier to insist that people work with the default gimp set up before making suggestions about where to put the information. thanks, carol Easier for whom? the users or the developers? Since there's only one GIMP set-up anyway, I don't see how it makes a difference; any suggestion I make is going to be a direct result of the default GIMP set-up that I'm using. I'm not biased by Photoshop, PSP or anything else, I'm just acutely aware of the user interface's short comings and I'm trying to address them. well it would be easier if you reorganized your approach to using TheGIMP and this would be easier for you and for the gimp developers. all i suggested was that you use the default set up before you start to say where the information should be. if you don't think this is easier for everyone, then we disagree. carol ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: when even free advertising fails
Hi, David Marrs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A message in the status bar makes sense to me. Huh? The application is supposed to tell you all the time that your selection is toggled off? There's only one statusbar and it should be used for useful things. Alternatively, rather than use the status bar, have a toolbar in the canvas window that includes this along with some other common and useful options. See my other reply for an example. I suggested a toolbar once before on this list and it's something I keep coming back to in my own mind as a possible way of solving a number of the niggles I'm having. Having all possible toggles visible in a toolbar in the image window be a major waste of screen estate. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: when even free advertising fails
On Sat, May 07, 2005 at 02:46:48PM +0100, David Marrs wrote: Hmm, I can't imagine when I did this, but I suppose I must have clicked on one of the other buttons at some point. It would be nice if there was a toolbar in the canvas window itself with the main tool options repeated there. That would make it easier to tell at a glance what tool and option is selected. I know this can already be worked out from the cursor icon, but those who are new to GIMP probably won't understand what all the symbols mean and might not think to look in the toolkit window. with the default installation of TheGIMP, this information is clear on several different operating systems and ways of working. it would be better and easier to insist that people work with the default gimp set up before making suggestions about where to put the information. thanks, carol ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: when even free advertising fails
Sven Neumann wrote: Having all possible toggles visible in a toolbar in the image window be a major waste of screen estate. Sven Not being able to maximse the image window to full screen is a major waste of screen estate. All I'm talking about is sacrificing 20 pixels' worth of height. If you don't want it there then switch it off. Besides, I'm not talking about *all* the possible toggles, just the useful and important ones. I started working on this yesterday. When I've finished I'll put together a presentation for the list to consider. Btw, does this list allow attachments. I tried sending this earlier with a screenshot of what I've got so far attached, but without success. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.5 - Release Date: 04/05/2005 ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: when even free advertising fails
Carol Spears wrote: it would be better and easier to insist that people work with the default gimp set up before making suggestions about where to put the information. thanks, carol Easier for whom? the users or the developers? Since there's only one GIMP set-up anyway, I don't see how it makes a difference; any suggestion I make is going to be a direct result of the default GIMP set-up that I'm using. I'm not biased by Photoshop, PSP or anything else, I'm just acutely aware of the user interface's short comings and I'm trying to address them. Making GIMP newbies (which I'm not, btw) learn the interface until they get used to it only means that they'll get used to the GIMP's short comings, not that they'll go away. It's just the same as how Windows users put up with their interface, all the time forgetting how restrictive it is. When it's all you can see, it becomes normal. It's only after you come back to Windows after spending months away, using a different OS like Linux+Gnome, that you suddenly realise how poor Windows actually is. If Microsoft were trying to get users to migrate from GNU/Linux to Windows, they'd be out of business in weeks. So I think you unwittingly hit the nail on the head with regard to the GIMP's problem: it insists that its users conform to its way of doing things instead of being malleable so that different users with different approaches can tailor it to suit their needs. Its approach obviously works for you, which is why you're happy with it. Just try to remember that your way isn't necessarily the *right* way. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.5 - Release Date: 04/05/2005 ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
[Gimp-user] Re: when even free advertising fails
David Marrs wrote: Sven Neumann wrote: Having all possible toggles visible in a toolbar in the image window be a major waste of screen estate. Sven Not being able to maximse the image window to full screen is a major waste of screen estate. View-Fullscreen (or simply F11) will maximize the image to full screen. You can also use the maximize button of the window manager to have the window maximized (with decorations, etc.) All I'm talking about is sacrificing 20 pixels' worth of height. If you don't want it there then switch it off. Besides, I'm not talking about *all* the possible toggles, just the useful and important ones. I started working on this yesterday. When I've finished I'll put together a presentation for the list to consider. That is a nice thing. Best regards, Olivier. ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: when even free advertising fails
Sven Neumann wrote: It was you who set it up that way. The default action of all selection tools is of course to replace the existing selection. The currently active mode is always shown in the tool-options. Sven Hmm, I can't imagine when I did this, but I suppose I must have clicked on one of the other buttons at some point. It would be nice if there was a toolbar in the canvas window itself with the main tool options repeated there. That would make it easier to tell at a glance what tool and option is selected. I know this can already be worked out from the cursor icon, but those who are new to GIMP probably won't understand what all the symbols mean and might not think to look in the toolkit window. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.5 - Release Date: 04/05/2005 ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: when even free advertising fails
Sven Neumann wrote, regarding an indicator for selection visibility: Now what do you suggest? What kind of indication would you have expected? David Marrs writes: A message in the status bar makes sense to me. Off the top of my head, a marching-ants outline of an irregular shape (so as not to confuse with quick mask) with a red X struck through it and a tool tip that says selection not visible on mouse rollover. Better still, clicking the That would be really helpful! I'm forever wondering whether I have a selection or not, and the only way to find out is to go to the edit and view menus and look, since not seeing a selection might mean there isn't one or it might mean visibility is toggled off (or that there is one but it's tiny and I'm not seeing it), and if I hit ctrl-T and no selection appears, now I'm not sure whether I just toggled selection off or on, so I still have to go to the menus to check that. Toggling selection visibility is something I do all the time, from the keyboard (is that just me, or is that common?) so being able to tell easily which state I'm in would be a great help. Alternatively, rather than use the status bar, have a toolbar in the canvas window that includes this along with some other common and useful options. See my other reply for an example. I suggested a toolbar once before on this list and it's something I keep coming back to in my own mind as a possible way of solving a number of the niggles I'm having. I'm sure some people would like that, but I wouldn't want to have to devote space to another toolbar to see this information. I like the statusbar idea, even if it was something as simple as another variable like %S that I could put into statusbar preferences, to say Selection Off or something. Though an icon with a red X, like David describes, would be easier to notice. ...Akkana ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: when even free advertising fails
Hi, David Marrs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In trying that just now, I (genuinely) couldn't get the lassoo to work. This is an example of the sort of problem I come across every time I try a new tool, or come back to one that I haven't used in a while. Because I've been using GIMP for a little while now, I'm getting used to the idea of holding down modifier keys. So it didn't take me long to figure out that I needed to hold down shift to make the selection. With a bit more playing, I finally figured out what the default lassoo action actually does. Maybe there's a good reason for having the primary action intersect and the secondary action add. Whatever it is, it's not to aid learning. It was you who set it up that way. The default action of all selection tools is of course to replace the existing selection. The currently active mode is always shown in the tool-options. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: when even free advertising fails
Sven Neumann wrote: Now what do you suggest? What kind of indication would you have expected? A message in the status bar makes sense to me. Off the top of my head, a marching-ants outline of an irregular shape (so as not to confuse with quick mask) with a red X struck through it and a tool tip that says selection not visible on mouse rollover. Better still, clicking the box would make selections visible, although a status bar is possibly not the best place to toggle options. Alternatively, rather than use the status bar, have a toolbar in the canvas window that includes this along with some other common and useful options. See my other reply for an example. I suggested a toolbar once before on this list and it's something I keep coming back to in my own mind as a possible way of solving a number of the niggles I'm having. It would be optional so that experienced users can switch it off if they feel they don't need it, and it should be customisable so that they can make better use of it. By default, it would simultaneously provide commonly needed tasks and important visual feedback as to the state of the canvas, brush etc. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.5 - Release Date: 04/05/2005 ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: when even free advertising fails
Hi, David Marrs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As an example, I thought I'd try toggling a selection. Bunks mentions in Ch.3 that it's easy to forget that you've toggled a selection so I thought I'd see if this is still the case: I opened an image and used the lasoo to make a quick selection. Hmm, that's odd... no marching ants. Let's try again, making sure the start and end points overlap... nope, still isn't working. Oh well, scrap that and use the elipse select. Use control-T to toggle its visibility. Is there any indication that visibility is switched off? No, which is why Bunks has scratched (his) head many times trying to figure out why...the GIMP no longer seemed to be working. There is an indication that it is switched off, but only an experienced user would look into the View menu and check the state of the toggle menu items. So you are right, this is a problem, similar to http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=132204 Now what do you suggest? What kind of indication would you have expected? Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: when even free advertising fails
David Marrs ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: [Troubles getting lasso selection to work] [...] I finally figured out what the default lassoo action actually does. Maybe there's a good reason for having the primary action intersect and the secondary action add. Whatever it is, it's not to aid learning. I figured it out relatively quickly, but unless a newbie cottoned on to the idea, he would probably remain lost. Just to clarify what happened here: The tool options can get stored to disk, I am not sure if it is enabled by default, I'd guess so. At some point you left the GIMP with the lasso tool in intersect mode and Gimp faithfully restored it on the next startup... There are Reset and Save buttons at the bottom of the tool options. You can use these to restore the default behaviour (Intersect definitely is not the default). Hope this helps. Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
[Gimp-user] Re: when even free advertising fails
David Marrs wrote: Since you bring it up, I was thinking just earlier today how frustrated I get when something suddenly stops working and I need to stop what I'm doing and look through the manual to find out what's wrong. The manual, btw, is always close at hand. I was wondering if it's' something I should discuss with the list or not. How can the interface be improved? What are its short comings? Does anyone else have this problem with it? Judging by Carey Bunks's FAQ section at the end of every chapter of Grokking the GIMP, yes. It would be nice to see some discussion of the GIMP's design, or its roadmap, or to feel that one can be involved in this project other than just by submitting bug reports or hacking code. Hey! If you think the FAQ section in (the excellent) Grokking the Gimp is a proof that the interface has to be improved, then you should install Gimp 2.0 or even 2.2. ;-) Seriously, Carey Bunk's book was about gimp 1.2 (and it was even written based on the 1.1.x series, not the final 1.2). Gimp developers have worked a lot on the interface since that era. It is still not perfect (what is perfection?) but has probably solved quite a lot of the problems mentionned by the book (which was, I do not remember if I mentionned it ;) , excellent). If you want to participate to the improvement of the interface not only by submitting bug reports or hacking code, you can do some interface testing/surveying. Some people have presented such results in the past and they were usually welcomed and accounted by the developers: Write a set of typical tasks to be performed (e.g. removing red eyes from a photo, cropping and rescaling an image, opening, rotating right -or left- and saving to a new name and location) and find some volunteers to perform these tasks (classify them in several categories such as experienced gimp user, experienced PS user, totally new to image manipulation, granny / aunt Tilly). Then observe them while performing the tasks (one volunteer at a time), take notes of their comments, frustrations, the places they expected to find the functionnality, the time they spent, everything. Such a survey is always useful. Before launching it, present the protocol to us for comments of course. Best regards, Olivier ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: when even free advertising fails
Olivier Ripoll wrote: Hey! If you think the FAQ section in (the excellent) Grokking the Gimp is a proof that the interface has to be improved, then you should install Gimp 2.0 or even 2.2. ;-) I'm running 2.2 and still find the FAQ invaluable. As an example, I thought I'd try toggling a selection. Bunks mentions in Ch.3 that it's easy to forget that you've toggled a selection so I thought I'd see if this is still the case: I opened an image and used the lasoo to make a quick selection. Hmm, that's odd... no marching ants. Let's try again, making sure the start and end points overlap... nope, still isn't working. Oh well, scrap that and use the elipse select. Use control-T to toggle its visibility. Is there any indication that visibility is switched off? No, which is why Bunks has scratched (his) head many times trying to figure out why...the GIMP no longer seemed to be working. In trying that just now, I (genuinely) couldn't get the lassoo to work. This is an example of the sort of problem I come across every time I try a new tool, or come back to one that I haven't used in a while. Because I've been using GIMP for a little while now, I'm getting used to the idea of holding down modifier keys. So it didn't take me long to figure out that I needed to hold down shift to make the selection. With a bit more playing, I finally figured out what the default lassoo action actually does. Maybe there's a good reason for having the primary action intersect and the secondary action add. Whatever it is, it's not to aid learning. I figured it out relatively quickly, but unless a newbie cottoned on to the idea, he would probably remain lost. I've quickly come to accept that the GIMP cannot be learned by mucking about with it and picking things up. One can't just launch the application and start making graphics with it. One needs to sit down with the manual, or a book, and learn it that way. Clearly the GIMP works well for some people, but not for me. It's an application that I'm starting to get, but the learning curve is often a frustrating one. Most people just simply wouldn't bother; they'd go use something else instead, regardless of whether or not it's free, proprietary, better or worse. In direct contrast, I was making some pretty cool graphics in Inkscape within minutes of first launching the application. I learned to get loads out it long before I ever looked at the manual. In fact, the manual, which I eventually discovered under the help section (a place I visited out of curiosity rather than necessity), merely served to confirm many of the operations I'd already learnt by myself. Granted, it's still a new app and has a long way to go before it becomes complicated, but, no matter how complicated it eventually becomes, it will always be childsplay to make graphics with it, because it's childsplay now. Write a set of typical tasks to be performed (e.g. removing red eyes from a photo, cropping and rescaling an image, opening, rotating right -or left- and saving to a new name and location) and find some volunteers to perform these tasks (classify them in several categories such as experienced gimp user, experienced PS user, totally new to image manipulation, granny / aunt Tilly). Then observe them while performing the tasks (one volunteer at a time), take notes of their comments, frustrations, the places they expected to find the functionnality, the time they spent, everything. Such a survey is always useful. Before launching it, present the protocol to us for comments of course. I don't think I'll be able to find the volunteers, but I can certainly document my own experiences with the GIMP, if you think they will be helpful. Kind regards, David -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.5 - Release Date: 04/05/2005 ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
[Gimp-user] Re: when even free advertising fails
David Marrs wrote: As for layer effects, well perhaps you should ask the users what it is they get out of them. Who knows? You might learn something. I think most of the developers already understand the value of layer effects quite well. Let me try to summarize the current situation. There are basically two possible ways of proceeding. One is to add layer effects onto the current GIMP architecture, which could be done, but in a somewhat hackish and ugly way. The other is to defer them until the arrival of the long-planned GEGL-based architecture, which will make layer effects and many other nice things easy and natural to implement. The decision has been to wait for GEGL. Whether this is the correct strategy can be debated, but it definitely doesn't mean that we don't care about layer effects. Best, -- Bill __ __ __ __ Sent via the CNPRC Email system at primate.ucdavis.edu ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
