Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
British_Bomber wrote: I'm sure there was a point in there somewhere, but this is just going to turn into flames. lol, you missed it, it was about 15 posts ago :D -- ** Draco Coder for Perfect Dark and Kreedz Climbing http://perfectdark.game-mod.net ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
If someone changes a value within my codes or writes codes that change the behavior of my codes then he is actually reusing it. Again copyright law in no way shape or form protects behavior. The modification of a programs behavior does not violate copyright law. If you can quantify the behavior in a formula or algorithm you can patent the formula or algorithm and get protection that way. Modification of binaries by an individual is a bit of a grey area as long as the modified binaries are not redistributed. Keep in mind someone running a server has not distributed any binaries in any form. In terms of inherited classes this means that any direct copy of my codes that is then changed or an inherited class with changed behavior is actually reusing my codes too. So this falls under the intellectual property copyright law. Truth is I am not aware of any modification to a mod-game that uses inheritance. You would have to distribute the original header files with your mod-game for this to even be possible. Inheritance and what constitutes derived work is another grey area. At best it would prevent someone from distributing their modifications, assuming the inheritance used the original classes of the game. It would not prevent the modifications from being used on the server owned by the person that made the modifications. Most companies that distribute header files add a definition of derived work to the right to use portion of the user agreement. Ex: All binaries generated with these header files constitute a derived work and is subject to all terms and conditions of this agreement. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Beppo Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 9:11 PM To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages? If someone changes a value within my codes or writes codes that change the behaviour of my codes then he is actually reusing it. In terms of inherited classes this means that any direct copy of my codes that is then changed or an inherited class with changed behaviour is actually reusing my codes too. So this falls under the intellectual property copyright law. And to the SDK... I guess you will find some text in the readme/info that actually allows you to chnage the SDK source codes to a specific degree for non commercial projects... including mods. But if a mod states in its licensee agreement that you are not allowed to change it in any way (agree to perform no after market modifications in termy to be allowed to use it) then the whole thing will be copyrighted. Either install it by agreeing or do not install it... your choice. -- Norbert Bogenrieder aka Beppo Lead Programmer and Project Lead [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sentry Studios - Infiltration [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sentrystudios.net http://infiltration.sentrystudios.net ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
The only thing I don't get about you Lance is the fact that you seem to be very aggressive in the way you stand your words. Just one thing... why? Maybe you should not change/ruin/enhance any mod out there... make your own... there you can enhance and change as much stuff as you like... why do you choose the very easy way in changing the work of others that worked their asses off to get their baby to look like they wanted to have it look?? I just don't get why you are acting like this. If someone asks you nicely to leave their stuff alone... why do you not simply show some respect to them as much as they show you and do not change it...? I guess it is just for 'the fun' ... your fun... not theirs off course. That's what I simply do not like to see happen with any mod out there... one or more folks that always go the aggressive style and have 'fun' in destroying the fun of others... -- Norbert Bogenrieder aka Beppo Lead Programmer and Project Lead [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sentry Studios - Infiltration [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sentrystudios.net http://infiltration.sentrystudios.net - Original Message - From: Lance Vorgin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 7:45 AM Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages? On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 03:10:40 +0100, Beppo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If someone changes a value within my codes or writes codes that change the behaviour of my codes then he is actually reusing it. Neg. I'm not redistributing your [already freely available] work, nor am I calling it my own. Sorry pal. In terms of inherited classes this means that any direct copy of my codes that is then changed or an inherited class with changed behaviour is actually reusing my codes too. So this falls under the intellectual property copyright law. Again, neg. But if a mod states in its licensee agreement that you are not allowed to change it in any way (agree to perform no after market modifications in termy to be allowed to use it) then the whole thing will be copyrighted. Either install it by agreeing or do not install it... your choice. I believe I have my fair use rights despite the EULA, but assuming we're in hell and I don't, then I hope both of your regular players will enjoy all three of your mod's boring, identical servers for the whole week. Karl: * I do take it as a challenge, as I find this kind of thing fun. Beyond that if the system is never tested and publically disgraced it will never be fixed. If I enjoyed the mod and wished to further mod it, however, I'd aggressivly go at it with purpose. I wouldn't however release something just to screw up gameplay :/ If I released anything I would release something on which people could build improvements to the gameplay despite the wishes of the original mod authors. * Just because the EFF is biased doesn't mean they're wrong :P * Be happy to - 'stosw' on gamesurge, #sourcemod among others. Me: It's shouldn't you moron. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
British_Bomber wrote: I'm sure there was a point in there somewhere, but this is just going to turn into flames. hummm... Remeber that modding its something coders do for fun. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
I'm sure there was a point in there somewhere, but this is just going to turn into flames. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:41:24 +0100, Beppo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The only thing I don't get about you Lance is the fact that you seem to be very aggressive in the way you stand your words. Just one thing... why? I believe that if a game is good at its core but flawed or lacking in some way in my eyes and the eyes of others that we should not turn away from that mod, but that we should try to fix it. Perhaps you find this proactive stance immature and unreasonable, but to each his own. Maybe you should not change/ruin/enhance any mod out there... make your own... there you can enhance and change as much stuff as you like... why do you choose the very easy way in changing the work of others that worked their asses off to get their baby to look like they wanted to have it look?? I love how you put ruin before enhance - you have a strange view. As for making my own, that's actually how I was introduced to the sdk. I've been a part of two unsuccessful mod teams (although it was quite a while ago, and for the record I was doing my part), and seen countless others suffer the same fate. So from that perspective I find it far more logical to work with mods which are already successful and have inertia than to attempt to create one from nothing, especially if you already enjoy that mod but find it lacking in areas. Of course if I had a team, an idea, and the will, I would create one, but why should I when I enjoy existing mods, especially when I can improve upon their already good foundation? A second reason for me choosing to do this is because I enjoy this kind of code: my strange skill set suits me pretty perfectly for this job. Many people want the ability to mod mods, and I'm helping give it to them. Regarding their baby looking like they want it to, my plugin wouldn't change their creation, just the instance of it running on my box. They still have their baby, and it looks exactly as they made it look, just not on my server. If the plugin is popular and is on every server, then they can choose to impliment it and change their baby for their community, or not to and to suffocate their baby. I just don't get why you are acting like this. If someone asks you nicely to leave their stuff alone... why do you not simply show some respect to them as much as they show you and do not change it...? I guess it is just for 'the fun' ... your fun... not theirs off course. Writing the plugin is for my fun, but the plugin being used is for the fun of others. Just writing the plugin affects _nobody_ but me, but releasing it can only bring about enjoyment as people who like it will stay and play with it but those who don't like it _CAN LEAVE THE SERVER_. You apparently fail to grasp this concept. That's what I simply do not like to see happen with any mod out there... one or more folks that always go the aggressive style and have 'fun' in destroying the fun of others... Dude, this is server side. People play on servers to have fun, and won't if they don't. explative omitted! Please, please tell me you understand this. Nobody suffers from me releasing a shitty plugin, because nobody will be f#cking affected by it. Now if the mod team releases a shitty patch, then everyone is affected by it. What then? (again) Go down with the ship? Turn away from the [my] answer out of spite? You baffle me. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
I fully understand you Lance, but still there is no need for aggressive talk. And I'm not your dude, dude. Just kepp your fingers from anything I will probably create in the future and we are good to go. No need for hard words or anything. But you really shouldn't take the work of others that easy. -- Norbert Bogenrieder aka Beppo Lead Programmer and Project Lead [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sentry Studios - Infiltration [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sentrystudios.net http://infiltration.sentrystudios.net - Original Message - From: Lance Vorgin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 2:57 AM Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages? On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:41:24 +0100, Beppo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The only thing I don't get about you Lance is the fact that you seem to be very aggressive in the way you stand your words. Just one thing... why? I believe that if a game is good at its core but flawed or lacking in some way in my eyes and the eyes of others that we should not turn away from that mod, but that we should try to fix it. Perhaps you find this proactive stance immature and unreasonable, but to each his own. Maybe you should not change/ruin/enhance any mod out there... make your own... there you can enhance and change as much stuff as you like... why do you choose the very easy way in changing the work of others that worked their asses off to get their baby to look like they wanted to have it look?? I love how you put ruin before enhance - you have a strange view. As for making my own, that's actually how I was introduced to the sdk. I've been a part of two unsuccessful mod teams (although it was quite a while ago, and for the record I was doing my part), and seen countless others suffer the same fate. So from that perspective I find it far more logical to work with mods which are already successful and have inertia than to attempt to create one from nothing, especially if you already enjoy that mod but find it lacking in areas. Of course if I had a team, an idea, and the will, I would create one, but why should I when I enjoy existing mods, especially when I can improve upon their already good foundation? A second reason for me choosing to do this is because I enjoy this kind of code: my strange skill set suits me pretty perfectly for this job. Many people want the ability to mod mods, and I'm helping give it to them. Regarding their baby looking like they want it to, my plugin wouldn't change their creation, just the instance of it running on my box. They still have their baby, and it looks exactly as they made it look, just not on my server. If the plugin is popular and is on every server, then they can choose to impliment it and change their baby for their community, or not to and to suffocate their baby. I just don't get why you are acting like this. If someone asks you nicely to leave their stuff alone... why do you not simply show some respect to them as much as they show you and do not change it...? I guess it is just for 'the fun' ... your fun... not theirs off course. Writing the plugin is for my fun, but the plugin being used is for the fun of others. Just writing the plugin affects _nobody_ but me, but releasing it can only bring about enjoyment as people who like it will stay and play with it but those who don't like it _CAN LEAVE THE SERVER_. You apparently fail to grasp this concept. That's what I simply do not like to see happen with any mod out there... one or more folks that always go the aggressive style and have 'fun' in destroying the fun of others... Dude, this is server side. People play on servers to have fun, and won't if they don't. explative omitted! Please, please tell me you understand this. Nobody suffers from me releasing a shitty plugin, because nobody will be f#cking affected by it. Now if the mod team releases a shitty patch, then everyone is affected by it. What then? (again) Go down with the ship? Turn away from the [my] answer out of spite? You baffle me. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
I apologize for any aggressive talk - I just figure everybody talks this way :/ I honestly want only the best for any creation of any modder, but, to paraphrase a recent relevant argument, if the mod author has the attitude of its my mod and I won't fix the bugs so go die, then it's in the hands of others to further the mod's development. Also apparently people get pissed off at me using I as it portrays me as an egotistical assbag - I personally don't, never have, and probably won't own a server and have yet to even make a server plugin that is beyond a test dummy. I use I because it's quicker to type than concerned persons who either own and / or adminster a server and or have the ability to modify the mod on a / their server. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
Now, in all fairness I did offer him an option, and none of what anyone here has said really relates to who's prefference is right. Merely options that modders have open to them for what goes on with how their game is played. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:45:02 +1000, Draco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeez, all this over whether to use scripts or hard code to decide weapon characteristics! It is a matter of preference, there is no need to try and convince others that yours is best. It would be like me saying my programming style 'pwns' yours and that your a 'stupid n00b' for using a different one. You would most likely tell me to 'STFU' and that my style should be crammed up whatever I traditionally cram things. You wholly, entirely, completely miss the point of all this - where you got the wildly wrong idea that this was a debate on whether hardcoding or using a script interface was better is beyond me. The discussion is about the futility of his quest, and his reasons behind trying to do it. His last sentence makes this thread perfectly on topic. I do see, however, a similar futility in this argument. Some mod authors may want to stop all customization of their mod [and in all likelihood go down with their ship :p], and they will never be convinced to abandon that position. I'm just saying, to them, don't be surprised. Beyond that it's not like we're detracting from any other threads currently on the mailing list :P ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
Lance, just some things... first, there is a difference between adding plugins and changing base features a mod has. Plugins or add-ons are changes that are all made of stuff you have written on your own and do not use any content of the mod below. Changing features of a mod is actually illegal due to copyright laws and someone would even be able to sue you if they have the time and money to do so. What you run on your server is up to you, right, but if you run stuff that modifies something that falls under a copyright then you can get in trouble pretty fast ... again if the original authors have the time and money to sue you. If your server runs not on your own machine at home, then a little email to the company that you hired it from is enough to get your server locked down. But enough of this chit-chat... you have your opinion and I have mine... just remember that there are several different things that automatically have a copyright just by creating it (even your plug-in or add-on will have this)... no need to get a registered trademark going or stuff alike. Anyway, if you mod mods or change their basic stuff then please add a message presented on login or on startup of a round that tells the players that this is a modified version of the mod... and not the original. That was the main point here ... folks not being able to know or to notice that the thing they play is the original or not. -- Norbert Bogenrieder aka Beppo Lead Programmer and Project Lead [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sentry Studios - Infiltration [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sentrystudios.net http://infiltration.sentrystudios.net - Original Message - From: Lance Vorgin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages? On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:45:02 +1000, Draco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeez, all this over whether to use scripts or hard code to decide weapon characteristics! It is a matter of preference, there is no need to try and convince others that yours is best. It would be like me saying my programming style 'pwns' yours and that your a 'stupid n00b' for using a different one. You would most likely tell me to 'STFU' and that my style should be crammed up whatever I traditionally cram things. You wholly, entirely, completely miss the point of all this - where you got the wildly wrong idea that this was a debate on whether hardcoding or using a script interface was better is beyond me. The discussion is about the futility of his quest, and his reasons behind trying to do it. His last sentence makes this thread perfectly on topic. I do see, however, a similar futility in this argument. Some mod authors may want to stop all customization of their mod [and in all likelihood go down with their ship :p], and they will never be convinced to abandon that position. I'm just saying, to them, don't be surprised. Beyond that it's not like we're detracting from any other threads currently on the mailing list :P ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
Beppo wrote: Changing features of a mod is actually illegal due to copyright laws and someone would even be able to sue you if they have the time and money to do so. Not necessarily. See the recent Techmo vs. ninjahacker.net lawsuit... http://games.slashdot.org/games/05/02/10/0347222.shtml?tid=211tid=123 http://www.security-focus.com/news/10466 ...many legal analysts say the lawsuit is baseless... Jason Schultz, an attorney with the non-profit Electronic Frontier Foundation, couldn't disagree more. This complaint is absurd, said Schultz. The law allows for fair use of other people's copyrighted works without any permission needed, and one of the key things that you're allowed to do is make copies in order to reverse engineer and understand how they work. snip But enough of this chit-chat... you have your opinion and I have mine... just remember that there are several different things that automatically have a copyright just by creating it (even your plug-in or add-on will have this)... ...and just remember that you also have Fair Use Rights on any Copyrighted works... http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode17/usc_sec_17_0107000-.html ...which basically means you can use copyrighted material for non-profit educational use. How you define educational is not obvious. In general, making claims about this is illegal or that is illegal is usually not an absolute. Different laws apply to different countries and those laws are usually un-enforceable outside the country where the law was created. -- Jeffrey botman Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
You might want to read up on copyright law. It protects the intellectual property, in this case your code. This means they can not steal or reuse your code. Copyright law does NOT prevent someone using engines calls to insert messages into your mod that create or inhibit features. The only way copyright law would be violated in this case is if they distributed your mod with their changes. To get the level of protection you are talking about requires making it part of the Right to Use agreement. For example when the mod is downloaded or installed have users agree to perform no after market modifications to the mod and that such modifications revoke their right to use the mod. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Beppo Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 2:01 PM To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages? Changing features of a mod is actually illegal due to copyright laws and someone would even be able to sue you if they have the time and money to do so. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
Didn't Valve distribute plug in capabilities with the SDK? So if you are trying to say that plug in authors aren't allowed to create their plug ins, then why are mod authors allowed to mod for the Source engine? I can see why you would want to put safe guards on what you think should not be changed, but like I said it's a cycle, and honestly no one truely has the right to say what goe's other than either Valve and their almightyness, or the player's by simply playing what they want. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
If someone changes a value within my codes or writes codes that change the behaviour of my codes then he is actually reusing it. In terms of inherited classes this means that any direct copy of my codes that is then changed or an inherited class with changed behaviour is actually reusing my codes too. So this falls under the intellectual property copyright law. And to the SDK... I guess you will find some text in the readme/info that actually allows you to chnage the SDK source codes to a specific degree for non commercial projects... including mods. But if a mod states in its licensee agreement that you are not allowed to change it in any way (agree to perform no after market modifications in termy to be allowed to use it) then the whole thing will be copyrighted. Either install it by agreeing or do not install it... your choice. -- Norbert Bogenrieder aka Beppo Lead Programmer and Project Lead [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sentry Studios - Infiltration [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sentrystudios.net http://infiltration.sentrystudios.net - Original Message - From: Deadman Standing [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:40 PM Subject: RE: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages? You might want to read up on copyright law. It protects the intellectual property, in this case your code. This means they can not steal or reuse your code. Copyright law does NOT prevent someone using engines calls to insert messages into your mod that create or inhibit features. The only way copyright law would be violated in this case is if they distributed your mod with their changes. To get the level of protection you are talking about requires making it part of the Right to Use agreement. For example when the mod is downloaded or installed have users agree to perform no after market modifications to the mod and that such modifications revoke their right to use the mod. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Beppo Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 2:01 PM To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages? Changing features of a mod is actually illegal due to copyright laws and someone would even be able to sue you if they have the time and money to do so. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
Plug ins are allowed... as long as they do not use/inherit codes of the original mod and change them. -- Norbert Bogenrieder aka Beppo Lead Programmer and Project Lead [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sentry Studios - Infiltration [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sentrystudios.net http://infiltration.sentrystudios.net - Original Message - From: British_Bomber [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 9:40 PM Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages? Didn't Valve distribute plug in capabilities with the SDK? So if you are trying to say that plug in authors aren't allowed to create their plug ins, then why are mod authors allowed to mod for the Source engine? I can see why you would want to put safe guards on what you think should not be changed, but like I said it's a cycle, and honestly no one truely has the right to say what goe's other than either Valve and their almightyness, or the player's by simply playing what they want. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
Beppo wrote: But if a mod states in its licensee agreement that you are not allowed to change it in any way (agree to perform no after market modifications in termy to be allowed to use it) then the whole thing will be copyrighted. Either install it by agreeing or do not install it... your choice. You do realize that by saying this you're just BEGGING people to make all kinds of crazy plugins to screw up the gameplay in your MOD, right? :) -- Jeffrey botman Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
From Beppo: In terms of inherited classes this means that any direct copy of my codes that is then changed or an inherited class with changed behaviour is actually reusing my codes too. So this falls under the intellectual property copyright law. Do you have a case citation to back that up? I'd be shocked if it's possible to violate copyright without making a binary change to the original code. I don't believe that's the case--see voogru's post. When you attempt to prohibit inheritance of a class, I think you're seeking protection of an idea or method of execution, which is closer to patent law than copyright (not that I want to open that can of worms). But if a mod states in its licensee agreement that you are not allowed to change it in any way (agree to perform no after market modifications in termy to be allowed to use it) then the whole thing will be copyrighted. Either install it by agreeing or do not install it... your choice. What you're describing is a business contract between the end user and the software developer that gives additional protection outside of standard copyright law. It may seem semantic, but a EULA doesn't expand the law any more than a credit card transaction (another contract) does (see Deadman Standing's post). Blizzard's successful attempts to crush that battle.net imitator in court illustrate that running a reverse engineered server can be a breach of contract provided the EULA has a no reverse engineering clause; that wasn't a copyright case, but Blizzard successfully sued because of the wording of the original contract and a demonstrated economic impact for Blizzard. Plugins don't fit the same category because they aren't reverse engineered and don't modify the original code. From Lance: You do realize that by saying this you're just BEGGING people to make all kinds of crazy plugins to screw up the gameplay in your MOD, right? :) I think it's unfortunate that people take this sort of thing as a challenge. Is it really that important to someone off and prove them wrong if you weren't otherwise interested in their work? From Lance again: Jason Schultz, an attorney with the non-profit Electronic Frontier Foundation, couldn't disagree more. This complaint is absurd, said Schultz. The law allows for fair use of other people's copyrighted works without any permission needed, and one of the key things that you're allowed to do is make copies in order to reverse engineer and understand how they work. The EFF is a rights advocacy group (we fight measures that threaten basic human rights principles), and can't be considered an objective source. They've stated that the DMCA is probably unconstitutional and dismiss its content out of hand. I'd take analysis of current copyright law and expected legal decisions from them with a grain of salt, the same way I treat statements from ACLU lawyers. Equating the trade of asset patches and modification of the program for entertainment purposes with understand[ing] how [programs] work is a stretch. That said, I hope that the Tecmo case is dismissed because I believe that people who have bought intellectual property should have the right to modify it for their personal use (e.g. writing in the margin of a book). Off-topic: Lance (and any other interested parties), would you mind having an offline conversation on how to detect modification of a HL1 server? NS is committed to allowing plugins, but I'd like to know when the game is running stock so that I can collect feedback for balancing the sides. I can look at the module list in Win32, but I'm not sure if that catches all cases and it's not cross-platform. It would be even better if I could fingerprint the modifications to know how popular they are and to see how common gameplay changes affect balance. Karl ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
Sorry Lance and Jeffery, attributed this quote to the wrong person in my last reply, should have been Jeffery: You do realize that by saying this you're just BEGGING people to make all kinds of crazy plugins to screw up the gameplay in your MOD, right? :) Karl ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 03:10:40 +0100, Beppo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If someone changes a value within my codes or writes codes that change the behaviour of my codes then he is actually reusing it. Neg. I'm not redistributing your [already freely available] work, nor am I calling it my own. Sorry pal. In terms of inherited classes this means that any direct copy of my codes that is then changed or an inherited class with changed behaviour is actually reusing my codes too. So this falls under the intellectual property copyright law. Again, neg. But if a mod states in its licensee agreement that you are not allowed to change it in any way (agree to perform no after market modifications in termy to be allowed to use it) then the whole thing will be copyrighted. Either install it by agreeing or do not install it... your choice. I believe I have my fair use rights despite the EULA, but assuming we're in hell and I don't, then I hope both of your regular players will enjoy all three of your mod's boring, identical servers for the whole week. Karl: * I do take it as a challenge, as I find this kind of thing fun. Beyond that if the system is never tested and publically disgraced it will never be fixed. If I enjoyed the mod and wished to further mod it, however, I'd aggressivly go at it with purpose. I wouldn't however release something just to screw up gameplay :/ If I released anything I would release something on which people could build improvements to the gameplay despite the wishes of the original mod authors. * Just because the EFF is biased doesn't mean they're wrong :P * Be happy to - 'stosw' on gamesurge, #sourcemod among others. Me: It's shouldn't you moron. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
I do not disagree, only for a little aspect... if you want your mod to be this or that way and not another and someone changes it to become that other, then it comes close to hitting the original mod authors right into their faces. Not all mods out there do wish to fit for every player around the globe. Some want to attract only a specific type of player and so will not change their basic rules to allow the 'unwanted' folks to join the party cause this will most times ruin the gameplay for the others. Fixing obvious bugs is another thing of course but only if they are really bugs and not features someone doesn't like. New additional features should first be presented to the mod authors themselves. Maybe by even showing them first hand. But the decission to include them in the next release or 'granting you permission' to release the modification to players/servers that want to use it is up to them. New features often ruin the balance within the game or add features that the original mod authors simply don't want to be integrated. Again, if your changes are good and in the lines of what the original mod authors want or plan to do, then there shouldn't be any reason for them to not listen to you. And if you then still want to do it, then I would consider you to make your own mod with your own ideas instead of ripping the work of others. -- Norbert Bogenrieder aka Beppo Lead Programmer and Project Lead [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sentry Studios - Infiltration [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sentrystudios.net http://infiltration.sentrystudios.net - Original Message - From: Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 6:14 AM Subject: RE: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages? I am sure the .ctx could be decrypted but most people won't go to that extent. For the people who do decrypt them It won't do them no good because they will not be able to encrypt them with a different key... Getting the key is not that hard I don't think, I do not know how to do it, but Lance did it like a walk in the park with a really hot girl. Once you get the key and decrypt the file, just slap it in the scripts directory with weapon_name.txt, and the mod will use that, ignoring the CTX file. That could be changed with little effort, but fact remains the CTX files are easily decrypted by someone who knows what they are doing. The main reason for this is that not many will blame the server admin at all... they will only blame him/her IF they already knew the original version of the mod... The example of new folks playing your mod for the first time rings a lot of bells here... Proper notifications to clients that the server is modified would solve this. A mod could even put in a mechanic to alert newbie's that the server they are joining is modified. And now think about your hard work (your mod) edited in a way that you do not want it to be... what a nice first impression can result of this. Not every mod is perfect, some admins and different communities might have different opinions of certain parts of your mod, and giving them the ability to change a few minor things may keep them interested in your mod. Because some mods are really great, but, there is one small thing that could be changed. Are you going to wait months for a patch? Or, go in and modify it yourself. What if the mod maker doesn't share your opinion? You won't even get to see it in action to see if it WOULD work. Not the way to keep players interested. A lot of people know I made modifications to the Natural-Selection mod, some people thought some of my ideas were downright crazy and stupid, and people thought they should NEVER be put in, except for those that were within my community, and those that joined my community because of those modifications. As it turned out, some of those modifications made it into the actual mod, which probably would have not happened if I didn't try it out for myself, and people could see that it was indeed a good idea. Now, normally, in order for something to get put into the mod, a mod maker would want approval of pretty much 75% of the player base or more, this wasn't the case with a lot of my modifications, but some of those that disliked the idea at first, changed their minds once they saw it in action. What if someone has an idea, 2 communities, A that likes it, and B that hates it, both with 5,000 players, you as the mod author, don't like the idea. Why shouldn't A be allowed to at least try the idea? Anyways, Admins can't do anything too major to a mod, especially in Source. The only way I would not allow server admins to modify my mod on their server, is if I decided to make a MMORPG type mod, where player data would be shared across servers. Of course doing this type of thing would require a lot more than just code. My reply does not address just weapon damage, but modifying mods (a mod of a mod
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
Beppo wrote: I do not disagree, only for a little aspect... if you want your mod to be this or that way and not another and someone changes it to become that other, then it comes close to hitting the original mod authors right into their faces. Not all mods out there do wish to fit for every player around the globe. Some want to attract only a specific type of player and so will not change their basic rules to allow the 'unwanted' folks to join the party cause this will most times ruin the gameplay for the others. Fixing obvious bugs is another thing of course but only if they are really bugs and not features someone doesn't like. New additional features should first be presented to the mod authors themselves. Maybe by even showing them first hand. But the decission to include them in the next release or 'granting you permission' to release the modification to players/servers that want to use it is up to them. New features often ruin the balance within the game or add features that the original mod authors simply don't want to be integrated. Again, if your changes are good and in the lines of what the original mod authors want or plan to do, then there shouldn't be any reason for them to not listen to you. And if you then still want to do it, then I would consider you to make your own mod with your own ideas instead of ripping the work of others. I see 4 players Valve -- Modders - Plugin Modders - Players Players have not choice, because will cheat. So cant pick his own map version, his own textures, etc.. Valve -- Modders - Plugin Modders Players Valve dont need to enforce rules about what-a-mod-will-use-for-model or wath-health-a-explosion-will-substract. Becuase If valve enforce that, you break the chain, and no modding will be posible. Valve Modders - Plugin Modders Players So the disccusion is here. Who rulez games? the final decision of what-to-run on servers its a plugin modder decision: Valve Modders Plugin Modders Players On singleplayer mods, no server exist so modders can rulez everything: Valve Modders Players Or Valve Players Modders With a 5 players game this can be expanded: Valve Modders Plugin Modders League Admins Players Or ..reordering. Valve Players Modders Plugin Modders League Admins Wellcome to a world where the host (league admins) can change sv_gravity. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 12:13:51 +0100, Beppo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I do not disagree, only for a little aspect... if you want your mod to be this or that way and not another and someone changes it to become that other, then it comes close to hitting the original mod authors right into their faces. Not all mods out there do wish to fit for every player around the globe. Some want to attract only a specific type of player and so will not change their basic rules to allow the 'unwanted' folks to join the party cause this will most times ruin the gameplay for the others. If third party features are added that attract 'unwanted folks', then those people will play only on servers with those features, not the base mod servers. Fixing obvious bugs is another thing of course but only if they are really bugs and not features someone doesn't like. Who cares what someone doesn't like? If you don't like it, leave the server. Lord. New additional features should first be presented to the mod authors themselves. Maybe by even showing them first hand. Why? I value their opinion, and respect them and their work, but if, in my eyes, my feature would better the mod, I will add it regardless of their input. My plugin / feature does not become mandatory across all of their servers, just those that choose to run it. But the decission to include them in the next release Yes, this is entirely up to them, as it is their project. Only they can officially release things under their mod's name and their team's name. or 'granting you permission' to release the modification to players/servers that want to use it is up to them. This is where you're wildly wrong. I can release whatever I damn well please, and run whatever I want on my server. Sorry. New features often ruin the balance within the game If they suck they won't be played. Survival of the fittest. or add features that the original mod authors simply don't want to be integrated. Again, if your changes are good and in the lines of what the original mod authors want or plan to do, then there shouldn't be any reason for them to not listen to you. The mod authors control the base mod, as it is their baby. I control, however, what goes onto my server. If I want to run a plugin that adds something that the mod authors consider blasphemous, but I enjoy, and my community enjoys, then I will run it. They don't own my server. Beyond that, again, successful mod authors rarely listen to reason. There's a very obvious trend among mods. And if you then still want to do it, then I would consider you to make your own mod with your own ideas instead of ripping the work of others. Nobody is ripping anybody. Plugin authors don't take credit for the whole mod, just what they add, and rightfully so. Beyond that if a plugin author takes time to improve the mod he obviously likes the mod, so why would he write a new one? Now if the mod authors include the features of that plugin into their mod without crediting the original plugin author, _that_ is ripping. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
It shuoldn't be a war. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
Jeez, all this over whether to use scripts or hard code to decide weapon characteristics! It is a matter of preference, there is no need to try and convince others that yours is best. It would be like me saying my programming style 'pwns' yours and that your a 'stupid n00b' for using a different one. You would most likely tell me to 'STFU' and that my style should be crammed up whatever I traditionally cram things. unless someone has something constructive to add to the topic, which was - how can Imperio59 hide his weapon characteristics in the code and not rely on scripts - , leave the topic be please. -- ** Draco Coder for Perfect Dark and Kreedz Climbing http://perfectdark.game-mod.net ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
I'm speak I sure wish I could edit my replies. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
Imperio, slap in a few checks to verify they are the values you want, and if they aren't then give some obscure error, blame DirectX and crash the game... Thus you have your weapons doing the damage you want, and if anyone complains you can blame it on Microsoft, problem solved :D ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
humm... blame it on Microsoft... You know it may just work. I mean everyone blames Microsoft anyways right? From: British_Bomber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages? Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 08:50:31 + Imperio, slap in a few checks to verify they are the values you want, and if they aren't then give some obscure error, blame DirectX and crash the game... Thus you have your weapons doing the damage you want, and if anyone complains you can blame it on Microsoft, problem solved :D ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
If you do that I'll.. err.. someone will just send unmodified values to the client and use modified values to calculate damage. And if you move damage calculation to the client, then I'll laugh really really hard. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
I am sure the .ctx could be decrypted but most people won't go to that extent. For the people who do decrypt them It won't do them no good because they will not be able to encrypt them with a different key... Getting the key is not that hard I don't think, I do not know how to do it, but Lance did it like a walk in the park with a really hot girl. Once you get the key and decrypt the file, just slap it in the scripts directory with weapon_name.txt, and the mod will use that, ignoring the CTX file. That could be changed with little effort, but fact remains the CTX files are easily decrypted by someone who knows what they are doing. The main reason for this is that not many will blame the server admin at all... they will only blame him/her IF they already knew the original version of the mod... The example of new folks playing your mod for the first time rings a lot of bells here... Proper notifications to clients that the server is modified would solve this. A mod could even put in a mechanic to alert newbie's that the server they are joining is modified. And now think about your hard work (your mod) edited in a way that you do not want it to be... what a nice first impression can result of this. Not every mod is perfect, some admins and different communities might have different opinions of certain parts of your mod, and giving them the ability to change a few minor things may keep them interested in your mod. Because some mods are really great, but, there is one small thing that could be changed. Are you going to wait months for a patch? Or, go in and modify it yourself. What if the mod maker doesn't share your opinion? You won't even get to see it in action to see if it WOULD work. Not the way to keep players interested. A lot of people know I made modifications to the Natural-Selection mod, some people thought some of my ideas were downright crazy and stupid, and people thought they should NEVER be put in, except for those that were within my community, and those that joined my community because of those modifications. As it turned out, some of those modifications made it into the actual mod, which probably would have not happened if I didn't try it out for myself, and people could see that it was indeed a good idea. Now, normally, in order for something to get put into the mod, a mod maker would want approval of pretty much 75% of the player base or more, this wasn't the case with a lot of my modifications, but some of those that disliked the idea at first, changed their minds once they saw it in action. What if someone has an idea, 2 communities, A that likes it, and B that hates it, both with 5,000 players, you as the mod author, don't like the idea. Why shouldn't A be allowed to at least try the idea? Anyways, Admins can't do anything too major to a mod, especially in Source. The only way I would not allow server admins to modify my mod on their server, is if I decided to make a MMORPG type mod, where player data would be shared across servers. Of course doing this type of thing would require a lot more than just code. My reply does not address just weapon damage, but modifying mods (a mod of a mod... lol) in general. These are just my thoughts, feel free to disagree. - voogru. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
In every modified server I've been on (too many to count) it's the server that's rightfully been blamed for the modifications to the mod and not the mod or mod authors themselves. There's no way to stop admins from changing pretty much anything about your mod's server and, as stated, it's not an option to make anything important client side (just play AVP2 for an example). In fact by trying to prevent people from modifying your mod, you attract people excited by the challenge [so to speak]. It's a bad idea not only because of the time it wastes, but because it actually hurts the mod: if more people play on servers with modified damage, then that's what people want to play. There will always be classic servers as well, so why would you not want to give people the opportunity to improve your mod? ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 02:17:55PM -0500, Lance Vorgin wrote: In every modified server I've been on (too many to count) it's the server that's rightfully been blamed for the modifications to the mod and not the mod or mod authors themselves. There's no way to stop admins from changing pretty much anything about your mod's server and, as stated, it's not an option to make anything important client side (just play AVP2 for an example). In fact by trying to prevent people from modifying your mod, you attract people excited by the challenge [so to speak]. It's a bad idea not only because of the time it wastes, but because it actually hurts the mod: if more people play on servers with modified damage, then that's what people want to play. There will always be classic servers as well, so why would you not want to give people the opportunity to improve your mod? ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders I may be coming in on the middle of this discussion, but I believe I have a good answer to this question. When someone plays your game for the first time online, what will happen if they see people flying around and swinging off the walls, and if a pocket knife kills with one shot to the foot and the sniper rifle hits for 1 hp? I really don't trust server admins with knowing how to make a fun game. As a game designer, I would prefer that gameplay be consistent across all public servers so that players can hop from server to server without having to constantly adjust their playing style to whichever server they happen to be on. Otherwise, it becomes like HLDM or Unreal, or like how TFC is increasinly becoming: you can't seem to find a straight game anymore without all those hooks and mods and hookmods and super-awesome plugins that people love to install. CS on the other hand is fairly consistent across the board, and it's easy to find a server that fits your tastes. Now, that's not to say that people shouldn't be allowed to modify how the game plays at all. In fact, just as you say, total restriction of any type of modification will make people simply want to do it more. On the contrary, it is good to allow administrators to change the settings on their own server to customize the style of play they like, and then the popularity of their servers will dictate whether or not that server will survive. However, giving the admin too much freedom causes a pain in the neck of players who want a consistent way of playing the game. It's the players I'm thinking about here. In turn, when you make the game you should be especially in tune with what people want. If every server is hacking it up to put more damage in, then obviously people think your game would be more fun with more damage, so a damage hike is in order. Not listening to your players (who make your mod popular) is as dangerous as giving too much power to the admins. -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
Lance Vorgin wrote: [...] There will always be classic servers as well, so why would you not want to give people the opportunity to improve your mod? Maybe If you ask a artist type of guy, the response will be NO. Its that, so not changes allowed. But If you ask the type of guy play with sources, the response will be YES, we can learn and play sharing the source. If you whant the YES response, the trick its not to ask to the artist type-of-guy. Or I suggest to use only mods you can get the sources. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
can only agree here... (sorry for going a bit OT now) you can give admins options to setup ie the number of reinforcements/respawns per player/team, maplists, timelimits and stuff alike... but when it comes to weapon damage, firing rate, additional scopes, grenade launchers and stuff alike then this kind of thing should stay the same, no matter on which server you login to start a match. The main reason for this is that not many will blame the server admin at all... they will only blame him/her IF they already knew the original version of the mod... The example of new folks playing your mod for the first time rings a lot of bells here... we had many folks that started to blame our development team for specific things they disliked on this or that server and blamed us for developing a big pile of sh..t. Actually these things were mutators (UT stuff) that some folks added to their servers and that were developed to change specific parts about our mod. These mutators come pretty close to what is possible for admins on HL. Sure not 100% the same but 'adjusting' the damage values, adding another scoreboard and stuff alike is the same and can be a big pain in the a... so to speak. What makes a player wanting to play a specific mod? It is most times the first impression they got while playing it for the first time. But if this first impression is not their kind of thing then they will never touch it again most times. And now think about your hard work (your mod) edited in a way that you do not want it to be... what a nice first impression can result of this. Easy example... realistic behaviour is geared towards a specific group of players. Sure, some more action orientated folks will like your weapons or some other parts of your mod and then they will maybe setup a server that plays your stuff in a highly unrealistic pure action fun style... maybe cool, but that was not the way the mod planned to end up. And you should always show respect if people invest their free and spare time in developing a mod the way they like. Suggestions welcome, but it is their toy, not yours. So, adding nice additions is most times ok, but changing basics is not. So, imo, hard code whatever you want to hard code and leave stuff editable only if you want them to change it. -- Norbert Bogenrieder aka Beppo Lead Programmer and Project Lead [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sentry Studios - Infiltration [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sentrystudios.net http://infiltration.sentrystudios.net - Original Message - From: Jorge Rodriguez [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages? On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 02:17:55PM -0500, Lance Vorgin wrote: In every modified server I've been on (too many to count) it's the server that's rightfully been blamed for the modifications to the mod and not the mod or mod authors themselves. There's no way to stop admins from changing pretty much anything about your mod's server and, as stated, it's not an option to make anything important client side (just play AVP2 for an example). In fact by trying to prevent people from modifying your mod, you attract people excited by the challenge [so to speak]. It's a bad idea not only because of the time it wastes, but because it actually hurts the mod: if more people play on servers with modified damage, then that's what people want to play. There will always be classic servers as well, so why would you not want to give people the opportunity to improve your mod? ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders I may be coming in on the middle of this discussion, but I believe I have a good answer to this question. When someone plays your game for the first time online, what will happen if they see people flying around and swinging off the walls, and if a pocket knife kills with one shot to the foot and the sniper rifle hits for 1 hp? I really don't trust server admins with knowing how to make a fun game. As a game designer, I would prefer that gameplay be consistent across all public servers so that players can hop from server to server without having to constantly adjust their playing style to whichever server they happen to be on. Otherwise, it becomes like HLDM or Unreal, or like how TFC is increasinly becoming: you can't seem to find a straight game anymore without all those hooks and mods and hookmods and super-awesome plugins that people love to install. CS on the other hand is fairly consistent across the board, and it's easy to find a server that fits your tastes. Now, that's not to say that people shouldn't be allowed to modify how the game plays at all. In fact, just as you say, total restriction of any type of modification will make people simply want to do it more
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
Can we encrypt them like valve did with their weapon files? IMO if it isn't a server config option then they shouldn't change it. If I wanted someone to change the damage I would provide an option for it.. I am sure the .ctx could be decrypted but most people won't go to that extent. For the people who do decrypt them It won't do them no good because they will not be able to encrypt them with a different key... r00t 3:16 CQC Gaming www.cqc-gaming.com - Original Message - From: Beppo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages? can only agree here... (sorry for going a bit OT now) you can give admins options to setup ie the number of reinforcements/respawns per player/team, maplists, timelimits and stuff alike... but when it comes to weapon damage, firing rate, additional scopes, grenade launchers and stuff alike then this kind of thing should stay the same, no matter on which server you login to start a match. The main reason for this is that not many will blame the server admin at all... they will only blame him/her IF they already knew the original version of the mod... The example of new folks playing your mod for the first time rings a lot of bells here... we had many folks that started to blame our development team for specific things they disliked on this or that server and blamed us for developing a big pile of sh..t. Actually these things were mutators (UT stuff) that some folks added to their servers and that were developed to change specific parts about our mod. These mutators come pretty close to what is possible for admins on HL. Sure not 100% the same but 'adjusting' the damage values, adding another scoreboard and stuff alike is the same and can be a big pain in the a... so to speak. What makes a player wanting to play a specific mod? It is most times the first impression they got while playing it for the first time. But if this first impression is not their kind of thing then they will never touch it again most times. And now think about your hard work (your mod) edited in a way that you do not want it to be... what a nice first impression can result of this. Easy example... realistic behaviour is geared towards a specific group of players. Sure, some more action orientated folks will like your weapons or some other parts of your mod and then they will maybe setup a server that plays your stuff in a highly unrealistic pure action fun style... maybe cool, but that was not the way the mod planned to end up. And you should always show respect if people invest their free and spare time in developing a mod the way they like. Suggestions welcome, but it is their toy, not yours. So, adding nice additions is most times ok, but changing basics is not. So, imo, hard code whatever you want to hard code and leave stuff editable only if you want them to change it. -- Norbert Bogenrieder aka Beppo Lead Programmer and Project Lead [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sentry Studios - Infiltration [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sentrystudios.net http://infiltration.sentrystudios.net - Original Message - From: Jorge Rodriguez [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages? On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 02:17:55PM -0500, Lance Vorgin wrote: In every modified server I've been on (too many to count) it's the server that's rightfully been blamed for the modifications to the mod and not the mod or mod authors themselves. There's no way to stop admins from changing pretty much anything about your mod's server and, as stated, it's not an option to make anything important client side (just play AVP2 for an example). In fact by trying to prevent people from modifying your mod, you attract people excited by the challenge [so to speak]. It's a bad idea not only because of the time it wastes, but because it actually hurts the mod: if more people play on servers with modified damage, then that's what people want to play. There will always be classic servers as well, so why would you not want to give people the opportunity to improve your mod? ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders I may be coming in on the middle of this discussion, but I believe I have a good answer to this question. When someone plays your game for the first time online, what will happen if they see people flying around and swinging off the walls, and if a pocket knife kills with one shot to the foot and the sniper rifle hits for 1 hp? I really don't trust server admins with knowing how to make a fun game. As a game designer, I would prefer that gameplay be consistent across all public servers so that players can hop from server
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
If they want an SMG to do 10 Cagillion damage just by looking at someone, then an SMG is Gonna do 10 Cagillion damage, they will find away, but I have to agree to some extent that the mod teams do tend to spend a lot of time balancing their game, and when they play on a server that has changed that balance they feel hard done by. All that work to make a balanced game and some guy or girl or alien has gone and changed that balance completely. But that's life. On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:08:16 -0500, r00t 3:16 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can we encrypt them like valve did with their weapon files? IMO if it isn't a server config option then they shouldn't change it. If I wanted someone to change the damage I would provide an option for it.. I am sure the .ctx could be decrypted but most people won't go to that extent. For the people who do decrypt them It won't do them no good because they will not be able to encrypt them with a different key... r00t 3:16 CQC Gaming www.cqc-gaming.com - Original Message - From: Beppo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages? can only agree here... (sorry for going a bit OT now) you can give admins options to setup ie the number of reinforcements/respawns per player/team, maplists, timelimits and stuff alike... but when it comes to weapon damage, firing rate, additional scopes, grenade launchers and stuff alike then this kind of thing should stay the same, no matter on which server you login to start a match. The main reason for this is that not many will blame the server admin at all... they will only blame him/her IF they already knew the original version of the mod... The example of new folks playing your mod for the first time rings a lot of bells here... we had many folks that started to blame our development team for specific things they disliked on this or that server and blamed us for developing a big pile of sh..t. Actually these things were mutators (UT stuff) that some folks added to their servers and that were developed to change specific parts about our mod. These mutators come pretty close to what is possible for admins on HL. Sure not 100% the same but 'adjusting' the damage values, adding another scoreboard and stuff alike is the same and can be a big pain in the a... so to speak. What makes a player wanting to play a specific mod? It is most times the first impression they got while playing it for the first time. But if this first impression is not their kind of thing then they will never touch it again most times. And now think about your hard work (your mod) edited in a way that you do not want it to be... what a nice first impression can result of this. Easy example... realistic behaviour is geared towards a specific group of players. Sure, some more action orientated folks will like your weapons or some other parts of your mod and then they will maybe setup a server that plays your stuff in a highly unrealistic pure action fun style... maybe cool, but that was not the way the mod planned to end up. And you should always show respect if people invest their free and spare time in developing a mod the way they like. Suggestions welcome, but it is their toy, not yours. So, adding nice additions is most times ok, but changing basics is not. So, imo, hard code whatever you want to hard code and leave stuff editable only if you want them to change it. -- Norbert Bogenrieder aka Beppo Lead Programmer and Project Lead [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sentry Studios - Infiltration [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sentrystudios.net http://infiltration.sentrystudios.net - Original Message - From: Jorge Rodriguez [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages? On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 02:17:55PM -0500, Lance Vorgin wrote: In every modified server I've been on (too many to count) it's the server that's rightfully been blamed for the modifications to the mod and not the mod or mod authors themselves. There's no way to stop admins from changing pretty much anything about your mod's server and, as stated, it's not an option to make anything important client side (just play AVP2 for an example). In fact by trying to prevent people from modifying your mod, you attract people excited by the challenge [so to speak]. It's a bad idea not only because of the time it wastes, but because it actually hurts the mod: if more people play on servers with modified damage, then that's what people want to play. There will always be classic servers as well, so why would you not want to give people the opportunity to improve your mod
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
Every weapon in every MOD should be insta-gib. :P Where is Holy Wars: Source? (don't you people EVER trim posts when you reply?) Jeffrey botman Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
Negative Jeffery, gattling gun insta gib! :P On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:31:31 -0600, jeff broome [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Every weapon in every MOD should be insta-gib. :P Where is Holy Wars: Source? (don't you people EVER trim posts when you reply?) Jeffrey botman Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- - Ben Davison - http://www.shadow-phoenix.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
Sigh. Gmail has spoiled a generation. :( Jeffrey botman Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
Yeah guys you're making my PINE lag :P The new players argument is the only one that's really made me think here - but perhaps, should your enjoy success and the inevitable modifications it brings, you should tell new players [in a document called the Manual!] to look for a 'classic' or otherwise unmodified server first. Why should the non new players suffer complete conformity for the new players the majority of whom won't become regular players anyway? Is seniority dead? These mini mods suffer from natural selection: if a mod sucks, people leave the server, and admins remove the mod or shutdown their crappy empty server. If it doesn't suck, then people play on the server, and all is well, unless you don't want to see your players enjoying the game. If people blame your mod for what a mutator does, then tell them it was the mutator. Egads. If a mini mod is liked [like the high damage example] by everybody, then yes it should be implimented by the mod team. However, if a mod is big enough to have such a mini mod base as, say, natural selection, or any of the other large mods [nameless..], then it's pretty much guaranteed that the mod team won't listen to anything the community says, or, even worse, only listen to fanboys that have a horribly retarded vision for the good game. Thanks, Fluyra [names edited to protect the guilty]! .ctx's are already useless - I don't see how people think it's protection :P When code is running on a computer that people have admin / root access to, _nothing_ is unmodifyable. Encrypt and hardcode what you like, it's just adding needless and useless complexity for you. Oh, and who needs a mod's source when you have a debugger :) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
It seems so far that some ppl believe that just because someone can change something means we shouldn't even try to stop them. This is really dumb, no matter what you do there will always be some way to subvert any protection system but that doesn't mean someone will succeed in doing so. It's true that the server can change anything but we shouldn't make it easy for him unless you want to :). It all comes down to what you what your mod to do. If you want server configurable weapons then use the scripts. I myself will be making a TF like mod so I want to have complete control over all weapon code. Because of this I will use scripts to test and balance then when I'm done I'll change the weapon code to not use scripts. Which should be rather easy. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
I might not hard code it (to prevent attracting people i'd rather not mess with my MOD's dlls) but i will probably put in a check in code to display a message if the script files' values differ from the hardcoded values. After all, i don't really care if they want a special uber-cool SMG to kill you in 1/2 of a shot, all i want is that the blame goes to the server admin went people start yelling, not to the mod team. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
If people blame your mod for what a mutator does, then tell them it was the mutator. Egads. This is, of course, extremely easy to do since new players always tell developers why they won't give a mod another chance... ;) I'm all for customization as long as players know it's a customized server. If there was a simple indicator that a server was running plugins with their names listed (like there is for mutators), then people could look for themselves--I haven't played around with plugins for HL2 yet, so I'm not sure if this interface is already part of the SDK. I miss it in the original Half-Life engine. If a mini mod is liked [like the high damage example] by everybody, then yes it should be implimented by the mod team. However, if a mod is big enough to have such a mini mod base as, say, natural selection, or any of the other large mods [nameless..], then it's pretty much guaranteed that the mod team won't listen to anything the community says, or, even worse, only listen to fanboys that have a horribly retarded vision for the good game. Thanks, Fluyra [names edited to protect the guilty]! Ouch? Actually, there are some cases of widespread plugin functionality that we're aware of and want to include in future versions (nextmap is a no-brainer). We don't (can't?) have the full picture of what mods user base is using on a day-to-day basis, but we do listen (and not just to the bad ideas). .ctx's are already useless - I don't see how people think it's protection :P When code is running on a computer that people have admin / root access to, _nothing_ is unmodifyable. Encrypt and hardcode what you like, it's just adding needless and useless complexity for you. Oh, and who needs a mod's source when you have a debugger :) I think this is analogous to anti-cheat on the client side. Any person with enough knowledge of how game code is layered on top of hardware drivers will admit that it's impossible to stop all cheating, but making it harder to do is still beneficial because it keeps the frequency of casual cheating down (or so the people who invest time in anti-cheat like to think). In environments where you want a level playing field across servers (i.e. competitive gaming) it's still worthwhile to at least investigate having checks to insure servers are running the unaltered mod (or the exact set of mini-mods required by the league, ladder, or tournament, for that matter). Karl ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
I pretty much fully agree with you Karl. I'm speak under the assumption that, like most of the servers I seem to remember, the words OMG THIS SERVER IS RUNNING XMOD are plastered all over a joining player's screen. As far as I know there's no way to look for servers running specific plugins, but if someone makes a popular third party server browser it'd be plenty possible and I'd bet quite successful. And perhaps I'm grizzled about my experience with successful mod authors. I loved NS, and respect the hell out of him for authoring one of my favorite games of all time, but am also sore at seeing 1.04 die. It was fresh on my mind at the time of writing :( I wasn't alluding to anti-cheats, and don't think it's the same situation unless you consider admins enemies. Remember, admins are vital to your mod's longevity :P Regarding competative play I fully agree too - that's where those nazi tourny plugins regarding round time, starting rules, consistency, and everything come into play. Not all servers [in fact most I'd assume] are competition servers though. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
Personally I will be removing the damage/cycle time values and anything else that greatly effects the characteristics of the weapon once I have found the values I want. This is simply a matter of preference, leave it open for editing if you wish. To remove the guns dependance on a script you simply find where they are read and replace it with constant. I do suggest that you leave the precache values be, so that the base class can precache everything(i friggin love that!) ** Draco Coder for Perfect Dark(sorta coder for KZ mod) http://perfectdark.game-mod.net ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
[hlcoders] Re: [OT] [OT] Safe way of setting weapon damages?
Yea. You think Its a nice day, then BANG, you died. And the whole day its ruined. This universe its odd, 42 its not even power of two. Rats know why. British_Bomber wrote: *looks at book collection above computer* I knew it rang a bell, but I wasn't aware he had died. Botman, I appologized for that. On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 18:25:45 -0500, Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: pKeyValuesData-GetInt( Damage, 42 ); // Douglas Adams 1952 - 2001 They must be real bad at math, 2001 - 1952 is 49, not 42. ;) British_Bomber wrote: real quick though, does anyone know who Douglas Adams is? This is a joke, right? If not... http://www.douglasadams.com/ -- Jeffrey botman Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
