Re: Assembler/compiler fun

[Binyamin Dissen]

On Tue, 7 May 2024 12:58:22 -0400 Phil Smith III  wrote:

:>See code produced by different compilers. (Search for "s390x" in the "choose 
compiler" box to find the Z compilers)
:>https://godbolt.org/

:>What strange hobbies some people have! (I'm including myself there)

Do you have any particular interesting examples?

--
Binyamin Dissen 
http://www.dissensoftware.com

Director, Dissen Software, Bar & Grill - Israel

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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Matt Hogstrom]

I think we’re swerving off-topic from z/OS technical content.

Matt Hogstrom
m...@hogstrom.org
+1-919-656-0564
PGP Key: 0x90ECB270
Facebook   LinkedIn 
  Twitter 

“It may be cognitive, but, it ain’t intuitive."
— Hogstrom

> On Dec 2, 2023, at 15:30, Bob Bridges  wrote:
> 
> Can't speak for anyone else, but I usually just take (or turn down) the first 
> offer, mostly I think out of poor self-image.  Not sure why, because I don't 
> mind dickering over a car.
> 
> The only exception I can remember off-hand is when a consulting company that 
> employed me was looking to cut costs, and asked that I go independent and 
> start invoicing them rather than being a W-2.  They offered me the same rate 
> I'd been making as an employee, which wasn't going to work for me if they 
> stopped paying me for bench time.  But mostly I say "$65/hr?  Yeah, I can do 
> that".  Shameful, I know.
> 
> This, by the way, is one of those differences I had in mind when I said 
> Yankee and Indian recruiters approach the negotiation differently.  American 
> companies have a definite range in mind and aren't usually shy about stating 
> it in the opening email.  (Although I wouldn't be surprised if they give the 
> lower part of the range, knowing they can raise it if they run across a 
> really attractive candidate.)  Indian companies don’t usually state the range 
> up front; instead I see "please send us your resume and your lowest rate...". 
>  Different assumptions about the way the process should work, I suppose.
> 
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> 
> /* The cure for boredom is curiosity.  There is no cure for curiosity.  
> -Dorothy Parker */
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 13:05
> 
> How many programmers negotiate when a recruiter contacts them with a lowball 
> offer, and how many just move it to the circular file? When I'm looking for 
> people, I don't want to scare away good candidates with an offer that might 
> offend them; I ask "What are you looking for?".
> 
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
> Bob Bridges 
> Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 12:01 AM
> 
> On the other hand maybe it's just a negotiating tactic.  There are 
> several differences in the way Indian and Yankee recruiters approach me (and 
> I assume everyone else too); maybe lowballing is just one of the ways they're 
> used to doing business, with the assumption that they'll have to go higher to 
> actually close the deal.
> 
> ...$125/hr, really?  I should maybe pay more attention to the advice a fellow 
> contractor gave me a couple decades ago.  I was working for ... well, 
> apparently you would regard it as peanuts although it's always been adequate 
> for me.  But Joe said I should demand $250/hr.  I'd work only about a third 
> of the time, but since that's about three times what I typically was getting, 
> it would come out even - and in the slack periods I could work on some 
> saleable project.  I understood what he was saying; I just couldn't find a 
> way to say "$250/hr" with a straight face.
> 
> Maybe that's a common foible.  My ex made really high-end decorated cakes, 
> the sort that we saw going for $150 and up at state fairs; but she couldn't 
> bring herself to ask more for her work than the cost of materials.  She just 
> couldn't believe her work was worth it.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Tony Harminc
> Sent: Friday, December 1, 2023 17:37
> 
> I interpreted Bob's comment "...I think the rate is unusual; I'm guessing 
> they don't think they can get one of their regulars to do it."  as meaning he 
> thought it (60-65 $/hr) was high.
> 
> But I agree that finding someone with serious assembler chops for that price 
> isn't going to be easy. $65/hour sounds much more like an all-in 
> employee-with-benefits kind of rate back-calculated from a salary.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Farley, Peter
> Sent: Friday, December 1, 2023 16:31
> 
> Agreed, very low.  I asked for and received $125/hr back in 1999 for a 
> complex assembler consulting job (BTAM / BDAM / multitasking / etc).   With 
> inflation and time passing the starting rate for that kind of work has to go 
> over $200/hr at the very least to attract anyone with the talent and 
> experience.
> 
> If it is a truly junior position though, say maintaining and perhaps 
> documenting old single-function utility ASM subroutines, that might not be a 
> terrible starting point to negotiate upwards.  Anything more complicated than 
> that, start the negotiation higher, or much higher depending on the actual 
> work to be done.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM 

Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Dave Beagle]

Another reason IT should have unionized decades ago. My wife, as a public 
sector worker, had better benefits than I had. Because of the Teamsters.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, December 20, 2023, 2:43 PM, Phil Smith III  
wrote:

Dean Kent wrote:

>In that case, I think that California law would not apply.  I have the

>impression (perhaps mistaken) that the labor laws apply to residents,

>not remote workers.

 

This is correct. I know this because when HP bought Voltage Security, we were 
no longer able to roll over any PTO, as mandated by California. Voltage was a 
California company too, but had one policy; HP/HPE/Micro Focus/OpenText aren't 
so generous.


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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Phil Smith III]

Dean Kent wrote:

>In that case, I think that California law would not apply.   I have the

>impression (perhaps mistaken) that the labor laws apply to residents,

>not remote workers.

 

This is correct. I know this because when HP bought Voltage Security, we were 
no longer able to roll over any PTO, as mandated by California. Voltage was a 
California company too, but had one policy; HP/HPE/Micro Focus/OpenText aren't 
so generous.


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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Dean Kent]

In that case, I think that California law would not apply.   I have the 
impression (perhaps mistaken) that the labor laws apply to residents, 
not remote workers.


On 12/19/2023 6:30 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:

Sorry, didn't mean to be unclear.  I did indeed say "while I am employed by a California 
company I am a company resource", but I meant it strictly hypothetically; I could equally well 
have said "if I am employed" etc.

Before remote work became more usual I contracted in a lot of states, but never 
California.  Five or so years before COVID I switched over to all remote; I 
work from home in NC.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Cheap, fast, good:  Pick two. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Dean Kent
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2023 11:51

My response was directed at Bob Bridges, who indicated he is in California.   
In California the 'contract' I was asked to sign is not enforceable, which is 
why the back page said 'Not applicable to California and Minnesota employees'.  
 Yes, some states have stronger labor laws than others.   So, no, in California 
a company cannot require what it wants - only what the law allows.

--- On 12/19/2023 6:27 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote:

In the US it varies by state, but in general the company can require what it 
wants. If you refuse to sign, they may negotiate or may refuse to hire you. 
Certain contract terms, e.g., yellow dog (non-compete) are illegal in some 
states.

Software is subject to multiple forms of IP protection, e.g., copyright, 
patent, trademark, and some open source licenses depend on copyright law.

--- On 12/4/2023 7:53 AM, Bob Bridges wrote:

Ok, now you've got me curious.  While I'm employed by a California software 
company, I ~am~ a company resource, am I not?  How is the law worded to bypass 
that (so to speak)?

-Original Message-
From: Dean Kent
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 09:48

California law, to the best of my knowledge, does give the employer
ownership of an invention/product if it was developed using company
resources, and/or...

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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Bob Bridges]

Sorry, didn't mean to be unclear.  I did indeed say "while I am employed by a 
California company I am a company resource", but I meant it strictly 
hypothetically; I could equally well have said "if I am employed" etc.

Before remote work became more usual I contracted in a lot of states, but never 
California.  Five or so years before COVID I switched over to all remote; I 
work from home in NC.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Cheap, fast, good:  Pick two. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Dean Kent
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2023 11:51

My response was directed at Bob Bridges, who indicated he is in California.   
In California the 'contract' I was asked to sign is not enforceable, which is 
why the back page said 'Not applicable to California and Minnesota employees'.  
 Yes, some states have stronger labor laws than others.   So, no, in California 
a company cannot require what it wants - only what the law allows.

--- On 12/19/2023 6:27 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> In the US it varies by state, but in general the company can require what it 
> wants. If you refuse to sign, they may negotiate or may refuse to hire you. 
> Certain contract terms, e.g., yellow dog (non-compete) are illegal in some 
> states.
>
> Software is subject to multiple forms of IP protection, e.g., copyright, 
> patent, trademark, and some open source licenses depend on copyright law.
>
> --- On 12/4/2023 7:53 AM, Bob Bridges wrote:
>> Ok, now you've got me curious.  While I'm employed by a California software 
>> company, I ~am~ a company resource, am I not?  How is the law worded to 
>> bypass that (so to speak)?
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Dean Kent
>> Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 09:48
>>
>> California law, to the best of my knowledge, does give the employer 
>> ownership of an invention/product if it was developed using company 
>> resources, and/or...

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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Dean Kent]

My response was directed at Bob Bridges, who indicated he is in 
California.   In California the 'contract' I was asked to sign is not 
enforceable, which is why the back page said 'Not applicable to 
California and Minnesota employees'.   Yes, some states have stronger 
labor laws than others.   So, no, in California a company cannot require 
what it wants - only what the law allows.


On 12/19/2023 6:27 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote:

In the US it varies by state, but in general the company can require what it 
wants. If you refuse to sign, they may negotiate or may refuse to hire you. 
Certain contract terms, e.g., yellow dog (non-compete) are illegal in some 
states.

Software is subject to multiple forms of IP protection, e.g., copyright, 
patent, trademark, and some open source licenses depend on copyright law.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Dean Kent 

Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 9:32 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler programmer wanted

You are a person.  People have rights, objects do not.The company
can require that you assign them the rights to any invention created
using the things they paid for - computers, software, offices, books.
Training/experience is more of a gray area in my mind.

Note that software used to be copyrightable - not patentable. That
changed in the 80s, I believe.   If you've ever looked into patenting
something, you would see that the inventor has to be a person (not a
company) - while the assignee is the 'owner' of the property.

That's my recollection and understanding.

On 12/4/2023 7:53 AM, Bob Bridges wrote:

Ok, now you've got me curious.  While I'm employed by a California software 
company, I ~am~ a company resource, am I not?  How is the law worded to bypass 
that (so to speak)?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* A tart temper never mellows with age, and a sharp tongue is the only edged tool that 
grows keener with constant use.  -from "Rip van Vinkle" by Washington Irving */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Dean Kent
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 09:48

As part of the employment agreement for this acquiring company we had to 
sign a contract that stated anything we thought, said, did, wrote, or otherwise 
created - whether at work or at home - while employed was owned by the 
company[But] State laws prevented them from snatching ownership for most of 
what they were claiming.  California law, to the best of my knowledge, does 
give the employer ownership of an invention/product if it was developed using 
company resources, and/or

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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Dave Beagle]

There was no quid pro quo. There was an implied threat of firing but they 
didn’t fire me. Probably because I was the main programmer for the bankruptcy 
team. I provided the reports for the legal team indicating vendors we owed 
money to. It was 492 million. Funny how it sticks in my mind 30 years later.

The founder and CEO, Mickey Monus, eventually spent almost a decade in prison 
for fraud & jury tampering. A couple of other executives also spent time in 
prison for fraud. The company emerged from bankruptcy but couldn’t make a go of 
it and liquidated a few years later. They went from being called the next 
Walmart to the dustbin of history in 5 years.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, December 19, 2023, 10:47 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

Claiming that signing is SOP should be a red flag. I would be suspicous of 
anything they said after that.

Did they offer you a quid pro quo? I don't think so.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Dave Beagle <0525eaef6620-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2023 10:42 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler programmer wanted

I worked for a company going through bankruptcy. Alvarez & Marsal were brought 
in to run the bankruptcy process. First thing they wanted was for all of us to 
sign a non disclosure agreement. The penalty was harsh. They could literally 
sue you and take your assets. I refused to sign. Approximately 10 people 
refused. The 10 of us then had a meeting with Tony Alvarez where he said non 
disclosure statements were SOP and it really didn’t give them the power to make 
your life a living h*ll. I didn’t believe him. In the end, I was the only one 
to not sign. One of the best decisions I ever made. Unions would prevent such 
abuses of power.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, December 19, 2023, 9:28 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

In the US it varies by state, but in general the company can require what it 
wants. If you refuse to sign, they may negotiate or may refuse to hire you. 
Certain contract terms, e.g., yellow dog (non-compete) are illegal in some 
states.

Software is subject to multiple forms of IP protection, e.g., copyright, 
patent, trademark, and some open source licenses depend on copyright law.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Dean Kent 
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 9:32 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler programmer wanted

You are a person.  People have rights, objects do not.    The company
can require that you assign them the rights to any invention created
using the things they paid for - computers, software, offices, books.
Training/experience is more of a gray area in my mind.

Note that software used to be copyrightable - not patentable. That
changed in the 80s, I believe.  If you've ever looked into patenting
something, you would see that the inventor has to be a person (not a
company) - while the assignee is the 'owner' of the property.

That's my recollection and understanding.

On 12/4/2023 7:53 AM, Bob Bridges wrote:
> Ok, now you've got me curious.  While I'm employed by a California software 
> company, I ~am~ a company resource, am I not?  How is the law worded to 
> bypass that (so to speak)?
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* A tart temper never mellows with age, and a sharp tongue is the only edged 
> tool that grows keener with constant use.  -from "Rip van Vinkle" by 
> Washington Irving */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Dean Kent
> Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 09:48
>
> As part of the employment agreement for this acquiring company we had to 
> sign a contract that stated anything we thought, said, did, wrote, or 
> otherwise created - whether at work or at home - while employed was owned by 
> the company[But] State laws prevented them from snatching ownership for 
> most of what they were claiming.  California law, to the best of my 
> knowledge, does give the employer ownership of an invention/product if it was 
> developed using company resources, and/or
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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---

Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Seymour J Metz]

Claiming that signing is SOP should be a red flag. I would be suspicous of 
anything they said after that.

Did they offer you a quid pro quo? I don't think so.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Dave Beagle <0525eaef6620-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2023 10:42 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler programmer wanted

I worked for a company going through bankruptcy. Alvarez & Marsal were brought 
in to run the bankruptcy process. First thing they wanted was for all of us to 
sign a non disclosure agreement. The penalty was harsh. They could literally 
sue you and take your assets. I refused to sign. Approximately 10 people 
refused. The 10 of us then had a meeting with Tony Alvarez where he said non 
disclosure statements were SOP and it really didn’t give them the power to make 
your life a living h*ll. I didn’t believe him. In the end, I was the only one 
to not sign. One of the best decisions I ever made. Unions would prevent such 
abuses of power.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, December 19, 2023, 9:28 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

In the US it varies by state, but in general the company can require what it 
wants. If you refuse to sign, they may negotiate or may refuse to hire you. 
Certain contract terms, e.g., yellow dog (non-compete) are illegal in some 
states.

Software is subject to multiple forms of IP protection, e.g., copyright, 
patent, trademark, and some open source licenses depend on copyright law.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Dean Kent 
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 9:32 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler programmer wanted

You are a person.  People have rights, objects do not.The company
can require that you assign them the rights to any invention created
using the things they paid for - computers, software, offices, books.
Training/experience is more of a gray area in my mind.

Note that software used to be copyrightable - not patentable. That
changed in the 80s, I believe.  If you've ever looked into patenting
something, you would see that the inventor has to be a person (not a
company) - while the assignee is the 'owner' of the property.

That's my recollection and understanding.

On 12/4/2023 7:53 AM, Bob Bridges wrote:
> Ok, now you've got me curious.  While I'm employed by a California software 
> company, I ~am~ a company resource, am I not?  How is the law worded to 
> bypass that (so to speak)?
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* A tart temper never mellows with age, and a sharp tongue is the only edged 
> tool that grows keener with constant use.  -from "Rip van Vinkle" by 
> Washington Irving */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Dean Kent
> Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 09:48
>
> As part of the employment agreement for this acquiring company we had to 
> sign a contract that stated anything we thought, said, did, wrote, or 
> otherwise created - whether at work or at home - while employed was owned by 
> the company[But] State laws prevented them from snatching ownership for 
> most of what they were claiming.  California law, to the best of my 
> knowledge, does give the employer ownership of an invention/product if it was 
> developed using company resources, and/or
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Dave Beagle]

I worked for a company going through bankruptcy. Alvarez & Marsal were brought 
in to run the bankruptcy process. First thing they wanted was for all of us to 
sign a non disclosure agreement. The penalty was harsh. They could literally 
sue you and take your assets. I refused to sign. Approximately 10 people 
refused. The 10 of us then had a meeting with Tony Alvarez where he said non 
disclosure statements were SOP and it really didn’t give them the power to make 
your life a living h*ll. I didn’t believe him. In the end, I was the only one 
to not sign. One of the best decisions I ever made. Unions would prevent such 
abuses of power.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, December 19, 2023, 9:28 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

In the US it varies by state, but in general the company can require what it 
wants. If you refuse to sign, they may negotiate or may refuse to hire you. 
Certain contract terms, e.g., yellow dog (non-compete) are illegal in some 
states.

Software is subject to multiple forms of IP protection, e.g., copyright, 
patent, trademark, and some open source licenses depend on copyright law.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Dean Kent 
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 9:32 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler programmer wanted

You are a person.  People have rights, objects do not.    The company
can require that you assign them the rights to any invention created
using the things they paid for - computers, software, offices, books.
Training/experience is more of a gray area in my mind.

Note that software used to be copyrightable - not patentable. That
changed in the 80s, I believe.  If you've ever looked into patenting
something, you would see that the inventor has to be a person (not a
company) - while the assignee is the 'owner' of the property.

That's my recollection and understanding.

On 12/4/2023 7:53 AM, Bob Bridges wrote:
> Ok, now you've got me curious.  While I'm employed by a California software 
> company, I ~am~ a company resource, am I not?  How is the law worded to 
> bypass that (so to speak)?
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* A tart temper never mellows with age, and a sharp tongue is the only edged 
> tool that grows keener with constant use.  -from "Rip van Vinkle" by 
> Washington Irving */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Dean Kent
> Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 09:48
>
> As part of the employment agreement for this acquiring company we had to 
> sign a contract that stated anything we thought, said, did, wrote, or 
> otherwise created - whether at work or at home - while employed was owned by 
> the company[But] State laws prevented them from snatching ownership for 
> most of what they were claiming.  California law, to the best of my 
> knowledge, does give the employer ownership of an invention/product if it was 
> developed using company resources, and/or
>
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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Seymour J Metz]

In the US it varies by state, but in general the company can require what it 
wants. If you refuse to sign, they may negotiate or may refuse to hire you. 
Certain contract terms, e.g., yellow dog (non-compete) are illegal in some 
states.

Software is subject to multiple forms of IP protection, e.g., copyright, 
patent, trademark, and some open source licenses depend on copyright law.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
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From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Dean Kent 
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 9:32 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler programmer wanted

You are a person.  People have rights, objects do not.The company
can require that you assign them the rights to any invention created
using the things they paid for - computers, software, offices, books.
Training/experience is more of a gray area in my mind.

Note that software used to be copyrightable - not patentable. That
changed in the 80s, I believe.   If you've ever looked into patenting
something, you would see that the inventor has to be a person (not a
company) - while the assignee is the 'owner' of the property.

That's my recollection and understanding.

On 12/4/2023 7:53 AM, Bob Bridges wrote:
> Ok, now you've got me curious.  While I'm employed by a California software 
> company, I ~am~ a company resource, am I not?  How is the law worded to 
> bypass that (so to speak)?
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* A tart temper never mellows with age, and a sharp tongue is the only edged 
> tool that grows keener with constant use.  -from "Rip van Vinkle" by 
> Washington Irving */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Dean Kent
> Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 09:48
>
> As part of the employment agreement for this acquiring company we had to 
> sign a contract that stated anything we thought, said, did, wrote, or 
> otherwise created - whether at work or at home - while employed was owned by 
> the company[But] State laws prevented them from snatching ownership for 
> most of what they were claiming.  California law, to the best of my 
> knowledge, does give the employer ownership of an invention/product if it was 
> developed using company resources, and/or
>
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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Seymour J Metz]

Unions are often needed to keep exploitative companies in check, but unions can 
also be exploitative, and most programmers that I know don't want to be in a 
union where they are a distinct majority. Vote for a programmers' union? Maybe. 
Vote to be represented by a,  e.g.., clerks', electricians, flight attendants', 
plumbers',  welders', union? Not unless things are really bad.

I can see the possibility of a union winning representation on the issues of 
under-staffing and last minute changes in specifications requiring overtime, 
but unhealthy and unsafe working conditions are nowhere near as common as they 
are in other occupations, and programmers generally receive a living wage.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
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From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Dave Beagle <0525eaef6620-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 7:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler programmer wanted

Funny how the industry's most associated with “intellectual property” and 
residuals are some of the least intellectual. IT workers should have unionized 
50 years ago and could have gotten a “piece of a very large pie”. Deservedly 
so. It would have included engineers, computer scientists, mathematicians, 
Architects and scientists. (Perhaps others) Some of the most educated 
intellectuals in the world.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, December 4, 2023, 11:56 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

Correcting an error or writing an enhancement *does* generate revenue, directly 
or indirectly, by helping to acquire or retain users.

Asking for a piece of the pie is always reasonable, as is refusing the request. 
It's a matter of finding terms that both sides can agree on. In practice I 
suspect that most companies would refuse to pay royalties but would offer 
something else to sweeten the pie.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
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From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Dean Kent 
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 9:47 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler programmer wanted

I think this is a bad analogy.  The guy who installs or fixes an item
that does not actually generate revenue certainly can ask for residuals
- but there aren't any since there is no income from it.

However, if residuals is a thing (which it is in some industries) then
asking for a piece of the pie for something that generates a regular
income stream seems reasonable.  In fact, I would suggest that it does
exist - though it isn't common.  There are some companies that will pay
a tiny percentage of revenue generated by patents that result in
revenue.  More often, however, they pay a 'bounty' for those patents
and require the IP be assigned to them.  I don't think it is a stretch
to claim that a significant contributor of a bit of software should get
a residual.  If we stretch it a bit further, isn't that what a
licensing fee is? So at that point, we are not discussing residuals, but
(partial or full) ownership.  I would suggest that if the software
industry needs anything to be stronger, it is how IP rights are handled.

I live in California.  The company I worked for was bought out by a very
large software company over 20 years ago.  As part of the employment
agreement for this acquiring company we had to sign a contract that
stated anything we thought, said, did, wrote, or otherwise created -
whether at work or at home - while employed was owned by the company.
I balked until I turned the page and it said "does not apply to
California or Minnesota employees". State laws prevented them from
snatching ownership for most of what they were claiming.  California
law, to the best of my knowledge, does give the employer ownership of an
invention/product if it was developed using company resources, and/or
knowledge that could only have been acquired through that employer.
Otherwise, it is owned by the person who developed it.Disclaimer:  IANAL

On 12/3/2023 3:00 PM, Tom Brennan wrote:
> Should I pay something to the guy who put the shingles on my house
> every time it rains?
>
> It's a trick question.  I'm the guy who put the shingles on my house.
>
> On 12/3/2023 12:07 PM, Wayne Bickerdike wrote:
>> When a bank runs an EFTPOS transaction, a fee is charged, all thanks to
>> some code. When they run a mortgage amortization program, a debit occurs
>> on  a periodic basis. The whole system of direct debits generates a
>> transfer of funds from a customer to the code executor...
>>
>> I could go on
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 7:03 AM Bob Bridges 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> LOL, the Indians and I would have more work offered to us :).
>>>
&g

Re: Assembler optimization OPTION

[Seymour J Metz]

I'm talking about very old values of "new"; I've seen code that doesn't use 
anything beyond S/370. 

I cane see not using the Telum instructions, and even not using the SIMD 
instructions, but anything older than that?

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Leonard D Woren 
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2023 4:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler optimization OPTION

Seymour J Metz wrote on 12/10/2023 7:06 AM:
> Why does it take so long for people to use new features? HLASM has a lot of 
> nifty things that have been around and well documented for decades.

Right.  I actually found at least one very old bug by using HLA option
FLAG(PAGE0).  An annoyance though is that there are some IBM macros
which get flagged, so you have to either temporarily turn off
FLAG(PAGE0) around them, or in some case, simply insert USING PSA,0.

> A similar question exists for new instructions; how many shops are still 
> running boxen that don't support the z immediate, long displacement and 
> relative instructions, e,g.,JC, LARL, LAY?

Which value of "new" are you using?  Our products are supported on all
z/OS releases still supported by IBM, so I'm somewhat limited in what
instruction set I can use.  Currently, z/OS 2.4 is still supported (I
assume until 2024-09-30), and since z/OS 2.4 runs on z12, I can't go
past ZS(6) instructions.  However, that turns out to be a LOT of nifty
instructions.  I have eliminated nearly all 2 and 4 byte literals,
among other improvements.

With the relative branch instructions and SYSSTATE ARCHLVL=2, there is
no excuse for base registers for code.

Note that LARL was retrofitted back to S/390 hardware, so there is no
excuse whatsoever for not using it.

I have a loop somewhere using about 20 registers.  Have fun with that.

/Leonard

> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
> נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר
>

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Re: Assembler optimization OPTION

[Leonard D Woren]

Seymour J Metz wrote on 12/10/2023 7:06 AM:

Why does it take so long for people to use new features? HLASM has a lot of 
nifty things that have been around and well documented for decades.


Right.  I actually found at least one very old bug by using HLA option 
FLAG(PAGE0).  An annoyance though is that there are some IBM macros 
which get flagged, so you have to either temporarily turn off 
FLAG(PAGE0) around them, or in some case, simply insert USING PSA,0.



A similar question exists for new instructions; how many shops are still 
running boxen that don't support the z immediate, long displacement and 
relative instructions, e,g.,JC, LARL, LAY?


Which value of "new" are you using?  Our products are supported on all 
z/OS releases still supported by IBM, so I'm somewhat limited in what 
instruction set I can use.  Currently, z/OS 2.4 is still supported (I 
assume until 2024-09-30), and since z/OS 2.4 runs on z12, I can't go 
past ZS(6) instructions.  However, that turns out to be a LOT of nifty 
instructions.  I have eliminated nearly all 2 and 4 byte literals, 
among other improvements.


With the relative branch instructions and SYSSTATE ARCHLVL=2, there is 
no excuse for base registers for code.


Note that LARL was retrofitted back to S/390 hardware, so there is no 
excuse whatsoever for not using it.


I have a loop somewhere using about 20 registers.  Have fun with that.

/Leonard


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
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Re: Assembler optimization OPTION

[Bernd Oppolzer]

I guess some sort of answer is:

if you have programs from - say - the 1980s and you have no reason for 
changing them - and no business case -
then you probably don't want to change them as long as they run 
satisfactorily.


Nowadays it is even trickier ... sometimes I come along some programs 
which from my technical point of view
need some maintenance, but the bean counters tell me that I am not 
allowed to do it as long as nobody is writing
a ticket for them ... and if I write a ticket myself, it has to go thru 
a lot of quality gate checks before I am allowed to
start working on it, mostly done by people, who don't know nothing about 
the technical facts ...

this can take weeks and months, and in the end, it may well be refused :-(

It seems to be easier for the top management to complain about the 
mainframe being "old and clumsy"
and then trying to replace it by what they consider "modern technology" 
... but then I see these migration projects
always failing, which keeps the mainframe running and running and the 
mainframe specialists growing older and older.


I'm 64 now, which is young, IMO.  My colleagues (still working, for the 
same customers) are 73, for example.


Kind regards

Bernd



Am 10.12.2023 um 16:06 schrieb Seymour J Metz:

Why does it take so long for people to use new features? HLASM has a lot of 
nifty things that have been around and well documented for decades.

A similar question exists for new instructions; how many shops are still 
running boxen that don't support the z immediate, long displacement and 
relative instructions, e,g.,JC, LARL, LAY?

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Peter 
Relson 
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2023 9:13 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler optimization OPTION

The starting point to almost all of these discussions tends to be to write 
reentrant programs (as high level languages naturally produce).

If you must stick with a non-reentrant program, consider the LOCTR directive. If you don't feel like truly moving the 
data-defining statements within your program, you can use the LOCTR directive to help to "move" data to a 
separate area. You might have an area for your "code" and an area for your "static data" and an 
area for your "dynamic data"

Peter Relson
z/OS Core Technology Design


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Re: Assembler optimization OPTION

[Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw]

It's a fair question. I think for me it is because I rarely write a brand new 
program. I take something that works and then change it to do what I want. 
Often I find I can easily do what I need without using newer instructions.

Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw
https: //rsclweb.com
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: 10 December 2023 15:07
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler optimization OPTION

Why does it take so long for people to use new features? HLASM has a lot of 
nifty things that have been around and well documented for decades.

A similar question exists for new instructions; how many shops are still 
running boxen that don't support the z immediate, long displacement and 
relative instructions, e,g.,JC, LARL, LAY?

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Peter Relson 
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2023 9:13 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler optimization OPTION

The starting point to almost all of these discussions tends to be to write 
reentrant programs (as high level languages naturally produce).

If you must stick with a non-reentrant program, consider the LOCTR directive. 
If you don't feel like truly moving the data-defining statements within your 
program, you can use the LOCTR directive to help to "move" data to a separate 
area. You might have an area for your "code" and an area for your "static data" 
and an area for your "dynamic data"

Peter Relson
z/OS Core Technology Design


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Re: Assembler optimization OPTION

[Seymour J Metz]

Why does it take so long for people to use new features? HLASM has a lot of 
nifty things that have been around and well documented for decades.

A similar question exists for new instructions; how many shops are still 
running boxen that don't support the z immediate, long displacement and 
relative instructions, e,g.,JC, LARL, LAY?

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Peter Relson 
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2023 9:13 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler optimization OPTION

The starting point to almost all of these discussions tends to be to write 
reentrant programs (as high level languages naturally produce).

If you must stick with a non-reentrant program, consider the LOCTR directive. 
If you don't feel like truly moving the data-defining statements within your 
program, you can use the LOCTR directive to help to "move" data to a separate 
area. You might have an area for your "code" and an area for your "static data" 
and an area for your "dynamic data"

Peter Relson
z/OS Core Technology Design


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Re: Assembler optimization OPTION

[Peter Relson]

The starting point to almost all of these discussions tends to be to write 
reentrant programs (as high level languages naturally produce).

If you must stick with a non-reentrant program, consider the LOCTR directive. 
If you don't feel like truly moving the data-defining statements within your 
program, you can use the LOCTR directive to help to "move" data to a separate 
area. You might have an area for your "code" and an area for your "static data" 
and an area for your "dynamic data"

Peter Relson
z/OS Core Technology Design


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Re: Assembler optimization OPTION

[Bernd Oppolzer]

There were different situations.

First of all, a co-worker on the project (from Kyndryl) helped us by 
identifying the modules which were in trouble.
I guess he used special traces or performance reports; don't know which 
sort of reports exactly. But he found

the SIIS hits somehow.

Then, when I knew the modules to examine, I found different situations 
... some examples:


1) IBM macros with inline parameter lists with SIIS issues (TIME for 
example, but others, too)

- with register parameters mostly
2) home grown macros with the same problem
3) LOOPs built by home grown SP macros with decimal control variables 
inside the instruction stream (!)
4) internal subroutines built by local macros where local static data 
immediately followed the code (same cache line)

5) other (more sophisticated) problems

I will tell you briefly what I did:

1) change the macros to list/execute form, as suggested by IBM, or 
switch to other (home grown) services
2) same as 1) or fix the macros to use a separate (workarea) DSECT, 
which is present in all our modules

3) fix the SP macros
4) if possible, move the data to the workarea DSECT; if not, enter some 
space before the data, so that the

data resides in the next cache line (256 bytes)
5) if possible, separate data from the instructions by moving it to the 
workarea which is provided by the
(already existent) startup macro; this also allows for baseless coding 
in most situations


Because the modules affected are part of the basic IMS framework of the 
customer and carry the daily
IMS dialog services with some thousand users, these modifications had to 
be tested carefully, before
putting them into production. The project started in the beginning of 
2021 and was terminated successfully

half a year later with (almost) no problems or downtimes.

HTH, kind regards

Bernd


Am 09.12.2023 um 15:38 schrieb Mike Schwab:

Putting DS and modified DCs into a separate area?

On Sat, Dec 9, 2023 at 5:17 AM Bernd Oppolzer 
wrote:


Hi,

there is no such option;
this is not possible, because with ASSEMBLER, the programmer has full
control about where he or she puts the information elements,
be it static data or code. There is no magic engine like the optimizer
with compilers which can do anything about that.

This said:

I had a project in 2021 with a large customer which had very old
ASSEMBLER programs from the 1980s, which had heavy SIIS problems
(store into instruction stream) which had to be resolved. I found out
that some of them can easily be resolved by the use of clever macros
which separate the static data from the code (by putting them in a
different CSECT or DSECT). The details are too complicated to discuss here,
but in the end, the changes to the code were minimal. And in the end, we
achieved our project goals in time and budget.

HTH, kind regards

Bernd


Am 08.12.2023 um 20:29 schrieb Ituriel do Neto:

Hello everyone,

Recently i have seen some discussions related to assembler performance

to use the L1 cache of the processor better and not mixing instructions and
data.

Can you enlighten me which assembler option can be used for this purpose?

Thanks in advance


Best Regards

Ituriel do Nascimento Neto
z/OS System Programmer

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Re: Assembler optimization OPTION

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 12:17:01 +0100, Bernd Oppolzer  wrote:
>
>there is no such option;
>this is not possible, because with ASSEMBLER, the programmer has full
>control about where he or she puts the information elements,
>be it static data or code. There is no magic engine like the optimizer
>with compilers which can do anything about that.
> 
Given that cache line size is model dependent, or someday might become so,
it would be valuable if OPTABLE set a GBLA containing that value
to be used as an operand of ORG, etc.

-- 
gil

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Re: Assembler optimization OPTION

[Mike Schwab]

Putting DS and modified DCs into a separate area?

On Sat, Dec 9, 2023 at 5:17 AM Bernd Oppolzer 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> there is no such option;
> this is not possible, because with ASSEMBLER, the programmer has full
> control about where he or she puts the information elements,
> be it static data or code. There is no magic engine like the optimizer
> with compilers which can do anything about that.
>
> This said:
>
> I had a project in 2021 with a large customer which had very old
> ASSEMBLER programs from the 1980s, which had heavy SIIS problems
> (store into instruction stream) which had to be resolved. I found out
> that some of them can easily be resolved by the use of clever macros
> which separate the static data from the code (by putting them in a
> different CSECT or DSECT). The details are too complicated to discuss here,
> but in the end, the changes to the code were minimal. And in the end, we
> achieved our project goals in time and budget.
>
> HTH, kind regards
>
> Bernd
>
>
> Am 08.12.2023 um 20:29 schrieb Ituriel do Neto:
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > Recently i have seen some discussions related to assembler performance
> to use the L1 cache of the processor better and not mixing instructions and
> data.
> >
> > Can you enlighten me which assembler option can be used for this purpose?
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> >
> >
> > Best Regards
> >
> > Ituriel do Nascimento Neto
> > z/OS System Programmer
> >
> > --
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> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
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-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: Assembler optimization OPTION

[Bernd Oppolzer]

Hi,

there is no such option;
this is not possible, because with ASSEMBLER, the programmer has full 
control about where he or she puts the information elements,
be it static data or code. There is no magic engine like the optimizer 
with compilers which can do anything about that.


This said:

I had a project in 2021 with a large customer which had very old 
ASSEMBLER programs from the 1980s, which had heavy SIIS problems
(store into instruction stream) which had to be resolved. I found out 
that some of them can easily be resolved by the use of clever macros
which separate the static data from the code (by putting them in a 
different CSECT or DSECT). The details are too complicated to discuss here,
but in the end, the changes to the code were minimal. And in the end, we 
achieved our project goals in time and budget.


HTH, kind regards

Bernd


Am 08.12.2023 um 20:29 schrieb Ituriel do Neto:

Hello everyone,

Recently i have seen some discussions related to assembler performance to use 
the L1 cache of the processor better and not mixing instructions and data.

Can you enlighten me which assembler option can be used for this purpose?

Thanks in advance


Best Regards

Ituriel do Nascimento Neto
z/OS System Programmer

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Re: Assembler optimization OPTION

[Michael Oujesky]

No option. Coding changes to position the volatile (modifiable) data 
areas from  from static (both code and constants) so that the cache 
pipelines are not compromised during execution.


Michael

At 01:29 PM 12/8/2023, Ituriel do Neto wrote:

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello everyone,

Recently i have seen some discussions related to assembler 
performance to use the L1 cache of the processor better and not 
mixing instructions and data.


Can you enlighten me which assembler option can be used for this purpose?

Thanks in advance


Best Regards

Ituriel do Nascimento Neto
z/OS System Programmer

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Re: Assembler programmer wanted (but off-topic)

[Bob Bridges]

I'm reminded of a bit from "The Sting", a movie about a big con.  A supplier is 
providing the uniforms and other props for the con, and during discussion the 
head of the con says "Ok, how do you want to be paid?  You want a cut, or flat 
rate?"

Supplier: Who's the mark?

Head: Doyle Lonnegan.

Supplier (with a disgusted look): Flat rate!

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Getting an inch of snow is like winning 10 cents in the lottery.  -from 
_Calvin & Hobbes_ */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Radoslaw Skorupka
Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2023 16:07

3. I'm aware of application programmers paid in similar way. However it is 
exception, not the rule. And usually they are paid "in futures", because the 
startup cannot afford regular salary.

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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Seymour J Metz]

They get a cut because that's what they negotiated, either directly or via a 
union. Getting paid a salary instead of residuals has the advantage that they 
can't cheat you by fudging the bookkeeping, so if you negotiate royalties think 
about how to keep the accounting honest.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Doug Fuerst 
Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2023 3:48 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler programmer wanted

Just an observation.

Actors are paid for their work as well. Many are paid millions to make a
film. Why do they then get a cut from every viewing of the film?
They were paid. Quite well. But they get a cut forever.

Just does not seem fair, or equitable.

Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From "Radoslaw Skorupka"
<0471ebeac275-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date 12/6/2023 15:11:57 PM
Subject Re: Assembler programmer wanted

>W dniu 05.12.2023 o 19:31, Harry Wahl pisze:
>>I have designed and written many things. The vast majority of which entitles 
>>me to no royalties or commissions. This is because any competent practitioner 
>>could have created the same (or similar) thing.
>
>That's how application programmers work. They are paid for their job.
>Not only IT - the same apply to any engineers designing new buildings, 
>bridges, machines, engines, etc.
>
>>However, there are a very few things I have designed or written that merited 
>>recognition as "intellectual property" and subsequently worth significant, 
>>special, negotiated compensation. Very significant.
>
>Yes and no. Even your very significant thing you designed can be sold. It can 
>be expensive, but it is subject of trade.
>Last, but not least: You can sell anything you created, like (fictitious case) 
>Edison who sold his light bulb. But maybe the contract was signed a priori - 
>you work for Edison firm, developing the source of light.
>
>
>Something to keep the discussion on topic somehow related to IBM-MAIN:
>Last two weeks I've got a lot of job offerings for assembler coding position. 
>I don't know the company, but headhunters said the job office is located in 
>Warsaw (although most of the time the job is remote).
>I don't know how much do they pay, because I gently refused. However other job 
>proposals in EU (mainframe) are usually at 40-60 €/hour level. What's not 
>funny, the companies located in Poland pay less than foreign ones. Fortunately 
>nowadays neither remote job is a problem, nor EU borders are.
>
>-- Radoslaw Skorupka
>Lodz, Poland
>
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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Farley, Peter]

Not all actors are paid that way every time, and I would venture to say only a 
very few make millions up front.  Even some usually highly-paid actors 
sometimes take a much smaller salary during filming in order to get larger 
royalties on the “back end” if they think the film will be a really big 
success.  But they usually also have accountants to keep track of the “back 
end” to be sure they are getting what was promised.  Lawsuits have been filed 
when film companies and/or distributors try to fudge the “back end” to keep 
more of the profits for themselves.  The devil is ALWAYS in the details.

But I agree that programmers, by and large, are not usually in a position to 
create something unique enough to be considered intellectual property per se, 
particularly application-level programmers.  By comparison to the discussion 
about actors, we take everything up front with nothing on the “back end”.

Peter

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Doug Fuerst
Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2023 3:49 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler programmer wanted


Just an observation.



Actors are paid for their work as well. Many are paid millions to make a

film. Why do they then get a cut from every viewing of the film?

They were paid. Quite well. But they get a cut forever.



Just does not seem fair, or equitable.



Doug Fuerst





-- Original Message --

From "Radoslaw Skorupka"

<0471ebeac275-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu<mailto:0471ebeac275-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>>

To IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU<mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>

Date 12/6/2023 15:11:57 PM

Subject Re: Assembler programmer wanted



>W dniu 05.12.2023 o 19:31, Harry Wahl pisze:

>>I have designed and written many things. The vast majority of which entitles 
>>me to no royalties or commissions. This is because any competent practitioner 
>>could have created the same (or similar) thing.

>

>That's how application programmers work. They are paid for their job.

>Not only IT - the same apply to any engineers designing new buildings, 
>bridges, machines, engines, etc.

>

>>However, there are a very few things I have designed or written that merited 
>>recognition as "intellectual property" and subsequently worth significant, 
>>special, negotiated compensation. Very significant.

>

>Yes and no. Even your very significant thing you designed can be sold. It can 
>be expensive, but it is subject of trade.

>Last, but not least: You can sell anything you created, like (fictitious case) 
>Edison who sold his light bulb. But maybe the contract was signed a priori - 
>you work for Edison firm, developing the source of light.

>

>

>Something to keep the discussion on topic somehow related to IBM-MAIN:

>Last two weeks I've got a lot of job offerings for assembler coding position. 
>I don't know the company, but headhunters said the job office is located in 
>Warsaw (although most of the time the job is remote).

>I don't know how much do they pay, because I gently refused. However other job 
>proposals in EU (mainframe) are usually at 40-60 €/hour level. What's not 
>funny, the companies located in Poland pay less than foreign ones. Fortunately 
>nowadays neither remote job is a problem, nor EU borders are.

>

>-- Radoslaw Skorupka

>Lodz, Poland

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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Michael Oujesky]

At 02:11 PM 12/6/2023, Radoslaw Skorupka wrote:
Yes and no. Even your very significant thing you designed can be 
sold. It can be expensive, but it is subject of trade.
Last, but not least: You can sell anything you created, like 
(fictitious case) Edison who sold his light bulb. But maybe the 
contract was signed a priori - you work for Edison firm, developing 
the source of light.



More like Tesla selling his patents to Westinghouse,

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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Dave Beagle]

Agree. 95% of what the “entertainment” industry creates is pure crap. To call 
it “intellectual” property is laughable. 

Television is mostly reality junk that cost little to produce since there are 
no actors to pay.

Movies are pathetic mostly. Poorly written repetitive brain dead nonsense. Fast 
and furious rubbish.

The record industry gets people to buy records, then 8 tracks, then cassettes, 
then digital, now streaming. Buying the same songs over & over. 

Concerts prices have skyrocketed, as have sporting events. The average fan has 
been priced out of live events. Soon, they’ll be priced out of televised 
events. With cable and streaming services galore each wanting you to subscribe 
while they continue to jack up the monthly fee.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, December 6, 2023, 3:49 PM, Doug Fuerst  
wrote:

Just an observation.

Actors are paid for their work as well. Many are paid millions to make a 
film. Why do they then get a cut from every viewing of the film?
They were paid. Quite well. But they get a cut forever.

Just does not seem fair, or equitable.

Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
>From "Radoslaw Skorupka" 
<0471ebeac275-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date 12/6/2023 15:11:57 PM
Subject Re: Assembler programmer wanted

>W dniu 05.12.2023 o 19:31, Harry Wahl pisze:
>>I have designed and written many things. The vast majority of which entitles 
>>me to no royalties or commissions. This is because any competent practitioner 
>>could have created the same (or similar) thing.
>
>That's how application programmers work. They are paid for their job.
>Not only IT - the same apply to any engineers designing new buildings, 
>bridges, machines, engines, etc.
>
>>However, there are a very few things I have designed or written that merited 
>>recognition as "intellectual property" and subsequently worth significant, 
>>special, negotiated compensation. Very significant.
>
>Yes and no. Even your very significant thing you designed can be sold. It can 
>be expensive, but it is subject of trade.
>Last, but not least: You can sell anything you created, like (fictitious case) 
>Edison who sold his light bulb. But maybe the contract was signed a priori - 
>you work for Edison firm, developing the source of light.
>
>
>Something to keep the discussion on topic somehow related to IBM-MAIN:
>Last two weeks I've got a lot of job offerings for assembler coding position. 
>I don't know the company, but headhunters said the job office is located in 
>Warsaw (although most of the time the job is remote).
>I don't know how much do they pay, because I gently refused. However other job 
>proposals in EU (mainframe) are usually at 40-60 €/hour level. What's not 
>funny, the companies located in Poland pay less than foreign ones. Fortunately 
>nowadays neither remote job is a problem, nor EU borders are.
>
>-- Radoslaw Skorupka
>Lodz, Poland
>
>--
>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Radoslaw Skorupka]

1. It is not true, they get a cut forever. Even US "mickey mouse" (*) 
law has deadline for that.
2. It is not true that *all* the actors get a cut. They can sell their 
right. Even a priori. The only thing which is non-transferable is the 
name of the actor or book author. That's what I know from lecture of 
polish IP law, but I think US law is quite similar here.
3. I'm aware of application programmers paid in similar way. However it 
is exception, not the rule. And usually they are paid "in futures", 
because the startup cannot afford regular salary.

4. I did NOT say what approach is good one.

My opinion: none. Really. I see nothing bad with getting a cut and 
nothing bad with being paid as regular employee, without any future 
royalties. Oh, I see some cons for royalties: the accounting could be 
complicated - or rather complicated to nightmare. However IMHO it should 
be free agreement of both parties.


Trivia: some accountants try to pay polish application programmers as 
creators. The trick is not about additional money, but less taxes. 
However I heard lawyers opinion saying it is very risky approach. Note: 
I mean application programmers working for some large financial 
corporation which do not sell any software - so the application is for 
their internal use. YMMV.


(*) the term "mickey mouse law" was taken from Lawrence Lessig's book 
titled Free Culture. Very interesting book, but focused on culture, not 
IT. And available for free.


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland




W dniu 06.12.2023 o 21:48, Doug Fuerst pisze:

Just an observation.

Actors are paid for their work as well. Many are paid millions to make 
a film. Why do they then get a cut from every viewing of the film?

They were paid. Quite well. But they get a cut forever.

Just does not seem fair, or equitable.

Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From "Radoslaw Skorupka" <0471ebeac275-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date 12/6/2023 15:11:57 PM
Subject Re: Assembler programmer wanted


W dniu 05.12.2023 o 19:31, Harry Wahl pisze:
I have designed and written many things. The vast majority of which 
entitles me to no royalties or commissions. This is because any 
competent practitioner could have created the same (or similar) thing.


That's how application programmers work. They are paid for their job.
Not only IT - the same apply to any engineers designing new 
buildings, bridges, machines, engines, etc.


However, there are a very few things I have designed or written that 
merited recognition as "intellectual property" and subsequently 
worth significant, special, negotiated compensation. Very significant.


Yes and no. Even your very significant thing you designed can be 
sold. It can be expensive, but it is subject of trade.
Last, but not least: You can sell anything you created, like 
(fictitious case) Edison who sold his light bulb. But maybe the 
contract was signed a priori - you work for Edison firm, developing 
the source of light.



Something to keep the discussion on topic somehow related to IBM-MAIN:
Last two weeks I've got a lot of job offerings for assembler coding 
position. I don't know the company, but headhunters said the job 
office is located in Warsaw (although most of the time the job is 
remote).
I don't know how much do they pay, because I gently refused. However 
other job proposals in EU (mainframe) are usually at 40-60 €/hour 
level. What's not funny, the companies located in Poland pay less 
than foreign ones. Fortunately nowadays neither remote job is a 
problem, nor EU borders are.


-- Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Doug Fuerst]

Just an observation.

Actors are paid for their work as well. Many are paid millions to make a 
film. Why do they then get a cut from every viewing of the film?

They were paid. Quite well. But they get a cut forever.

Just does not seem fair, or equitable.

Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From "Radoslaw Skorupka" 

<0471ebeac275-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date 12/6/2023 15:11:57 PM
Subject Re: Assembler programmer wanted


W dniu 05.12.2023 o 19:31, Harry Wahl pisze:

I have designed and written many things. The vast majority of which entitles me 
to no royalties or commissions. This is because any competent practitioner 
could have created the same (or similar) thing.


That's how application programmers work. They are paid for their job.
Not only IT - the same apply to any engineers designing new buildings, bridges, 
machines, engines, etc.


However, there are a very few things I have designed or written that merited recognition 
as "intellectual property" and subsequently worth significant, special, 
negotiated compensation. Very significant.


Yes and no. Even your very significant thing you designed can be sold. It can 
be expensive, but it is subject of trade.
Last, but not least: You can sell anything you created, like (fictitious case) 
Edison who sold his light bulb. But maybe the contract was signed a priori - 
you work for Edison firm, developing the source of light.


Something to keep the discussion on topic somehow related to IBM-MAIN:
Last two weeks I've got a lot of job offerings for assembler coding position. I 
don't know the company, but headhunters said the job office is located in 
Warsaw (although most of the time the job is remote).
I don't know how much do they pay, because I gently refused. However other job 
proposals in EU (mainframe) are usually at 40-60 €/hour level. What's not 
funny, the companies located in Poland pay less than foreign ones. Fortunately 
nowadays neither remote job is a problem, nor EU borders are.

-- Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Radoslaw Skorupka]

W dniu 05.12.2023 o 19:31, Harry Wahl pisze:

I have designed and written many things. The vast majority of which entitles me 
to no royalties or commissions. This is because any competent practitioner 
could have created the same (or similar) thing.


That's how application programmers work. They are paid for their job.
Not only IT - the same apply to any engineers designing new buildings, 
bridges, machines, engines, etc.



However, there are a very few things I have designed or written that merited recognition 
as "intellectual property" and subsequently worth significant, special, 
negotiated compensation. Very significant.


Yes and no. Even your very significant thing you designed can be sold. 
It can be expensive, but it is subject of trade.
Last, but not least: You can sell anything you created, like (fictitious 
case) Edison who sold his light bulb. But maybe the contract was signed 
a priori - you work for Edison firm, developing the source of light.



Something to keep the discussion on topic somehow related to IBM-MAIN:
Last two weeks I've got a lot of job offerings for assembler coding 
position. I don't know the company, but headhunters said the job office 
is located in Warsaw (although most of the time the job is remote).
I don't know how much do they pay, because I gently refused. However 
other job proposals in EU (mainframe) are usually at 40-60 €/hour level. 
What's not funny, the companies located in Poland pay less than foreign 
ones. Fortunately nowadays neither remote job is a problem, nor EU 
borders are.


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Harry Wahl]

ALCON:

Usually, royalties and residuals are paid to people who are uniquely able to 
contribute to the design of a unique creation; something that cannot be 
practically done by others. This would include actors or writers who are 
recognized and whose presence during the creation of a project is valued every 
time it is resold in the future.

The same thing applies to computer related patents and other intellectual 
property. If one creates software (or hardware) that a patent office (or 
intellectual property expert) recognizes as special and unique, i.e. something 
that cannot, from a practical point of view, be done by ordinary practitioners, 
one is granted legal recognition and the legal right to royalties and other 
compensation, as negotiated.

The business of intellectual property intersects slightly with computer coding, 
but generally not. Do you pay the guy that built your chair a royalty every 
time you use it?

I have designed and written many things. The vast majority of which entitles me 
to no royalties or commissions. This is because any competent practitioner 
could have created the same (or similar) thing.

However, there are a very few things I have designed or written that merited 
recognition as "intellectual property" and subsequently worth significant, 
special, negotiated compensation. Very significant.


As for the OP's "60-65 $/hr" [sic] quote, I suspect that the amount the final 
user is actually paying, and this amount are enormously different. Either the 
coder or the final user are being taken advantage of. My guess would be that it 
is the final consumer of the code, who is paying for quality and getting "a 
warm body" who receives little but is billed extravagantly. I believe this is 
because lately, companies are being exploited by body-shops. These final 
code-consuming companies lack existing people who can properly vet qualified 
people for needed positions.

Harry


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Dave Beagle <0525eaef6620-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 7:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Assembler programmer wanted

Funny how the industry's most associated with “intellectual property” and 
residuals are some of the least intellectual. IT workers should have unionized 
50 years ago and could have gotten a “piece of a very large pie”. Deservedly 
so. It would have included engineers, computer scientists, mathematicians, 
Architects and scientists. (Perhaps others) Some of the most educated 
intellectuals in the world.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, December 4, 2023, 11:56 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

Correcting an error or writing an enhancement *does* generate revenue, directly 
or indirectly, by helping to acquire or retain users.

Asking for a piece of the pie is always reasonable, as is refusing the request. 
It's a matter of finding terms that both sides can agree on. In practice I 
suspect that most companies would refuse to pay royalties but would offer 
something else to sweeten the pie.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmason.gmu.edu%2F~smetz3=05%7C01%7C%7Ccb696c60f8014c0a2d5c08dbf528ae3e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638373327451891677%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=OedGhWjWxiVqg0PKivBakmIUPxsRe1GunOES3DunPs4%3D=0<http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3>
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From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Dean Kent 
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 9:47 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler programmer wanted

I think this is a bad analogy.  The guy who installs or fixes an item
that does not actually generate revenue certainly can ask for residuals
- but there aren't any since there is no income from it.

However, if residuals is a thing (which it is in some industries) then
asking for a piece of the pie for something that generates a regular
income stream seems reasonable.  In fact, I would suggest that it does
exist - though it isn't common.  There are some companies that will pay
a tiny percentage of revenue generated by patents that result in
revenue.  More often, however, they pay a 'bounty' for those patents
and require the IP be assigned to them.  I don't think it is a stretch
to claim that a significant contributor of a bit of software should get
a residual.  If we stretch it a bit further, isn't that what a
licensing fee is? So at that point, we are not discussing residuals, but
(partial or full) ownership.  I would suggest that if the software
industry needs anything to be stronger, it is how IP rights are handled.

I live in California.  The company I worked for was bought out by a very
large software company over 20 years ago.  As part of t

Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Dean Kent]

You are a person.  People have rights, objects do not.    The company 
can require that you assign them the rights to any invention created 
using the things they paid for - computers, software, offices, books.   
Training/experience is more of a gray area in my mind.


Note that software used to be copyrightable - not patentable. That 
changed in the 80s, I believe.   If you've ever looked into patenting 
something, you would see that the inventor has to be a person (not a 
company) - while the assignee is the 'owner' of the property.


That's my recollection and understanding.

On 12/4/2023 7:53 AM, Bob Bridges wrote:

Ok, now you've got me curious.  While I'm employed by a California software 
company, I ~am~ a company resource, am I not?  How is the law worded to bypass 
that (so to speak)?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* A tart temper never mellows with age, and a sharp tongue is the only edged tool that 
grows keener with constant use.  -from "Rip van Vinkle" by Washington Irving */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Dean Kent
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 09:48

As part of the employment agreement for this acquiring company we had to 
sign a contract that stated anything we thought, said, did, wrote, or otherwise 
created - whether at work or at home - while employed was owned by the 
company[But] State laws prevented them from snatching ownership for most of 
what they were claiming.  California law, to the best of my knowledge, does 
give the employer ownership of an invention/product if it was developed using 
company resources, and/or

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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Dave Beagle]

Funny how the industry's most associated with “intellectual property” and 
residuals are some of the least intellectual. IT workers should have unionized 
50 years ago and could have gotten a “piece of a very large pie”. Deservedly 
so. It would have included engineers, computer scientists, mathematicians, 
Architects and scientists. (Perhaps others) Some of the most educated 
intellectuals in the world.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, December 4, 2023, 11:56 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

Correcting an error or writing an enhancement *does* generate revenue, directly 
or indirectly, by helping to acquire or retain users.

Asking for a piece of the pie is always reasonable, as is refusing the request. 
It's a matter of finding terms that both sides can agree on. In practice I 
suspect that most companies would refuse to pay royalties but would offer 
something else to sweeten the pie.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Dean Kent 
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 9:47 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler programmer wanted

I think this is a bad analogy.  The guy who installs or fixes an item
that does not actually generate revenue certainly can ask for residuals
- but there aren't any since there is no income from it.

However, if residuals is a thing (which it is in some industries) then
asking for a piece of the pie for something that generates a regular
income stream seems reasonable.  In fact, I would suggest that it does
exist - though it isn't common.  There are some companies that will pay
a tiny percentage of revenue generated by patents that result in
revenue.  More often, however, they pay a 'bounty' for those patents
and require the IP be assigned to them.  I don't think it is a stretch
to claim that a significant contributor of a bit of software should get
a residual.  If we stretch it a bit further, isn't that what a
licensing fee is? So at that point, we are not discussing residuals, but
(partial or full) ownership.  I would suggest that if the software
industry needs anything to be stronger, it is how IP rights are handled.

I live in California.  The company I worked for was bought out by a very
large software company over 20 years ago.  As part of the employment
agreement for this acquiring company we had to sign a contract that
stated anything we thought, said, did, wrote, or otherwise created -
whether at work or at home - while employed was owned by the company.
I balked until I turned the page and it said "does not apply to
California or Minnesota employees". State laws prevented them from
snatching ownership for most of what they were claiming.  California
law, to the best of my knowledge, does give the employer ownership of an
invention/product if it was developed using company resources, and/or
knowledge that could only have been acquired through that employer.
Otherwise, it is owned by the person who developed it.    Disclaimer:  IANAL

On 12/3/2023 3:00 PM, Tom Brennan wrote:
> Should I pay something to the guy who put the shingles on my house
> every time it rains?
>
> It's a trick question.  I'm the guy who put the shingles on my house.
>
> On 12/3/2023 12:07 PM, Wayne Bickerdike wrote:
>> When a bank runs an EFTPOS transaction, a fee is charged, all thanks to
>> some code. When they run a mortgage amortization program, a debit occurs
>> on  a periodic basis. The whole system of direct debits generates a
>> transfer of funds from a customer to the code executor...
>>
>> I could go on
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 7:03 AM Bob Bridges 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> LOL, the Indians and I would have more work offered to us :).
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>>>
>>> /* I like what the Roman fellow said: “I think nothing human alien
>>> to me.”
>>> When I read of a Mao or a Susan Smith, I try to imagine their
>>> temptations,
>>> not to exculpate them, but to implicate myself. Part of the
>>> greatness of
>>> Macbeth lies in the way it shows terrible crimes from the inside,
>>> without
>>> in the least excusing them.  -Joe Sobran, Dec 1994 */
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Doug Fuerst
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 15:37
>>>
>>> Maybe we should ask for residuals for our creative property like
>>> actors.
>>> We give it all away too easily.  What would happen if we all went on
>>> strike?
>>>
>>> ---

Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Seymour J Metz]

Correcting an error or writing an enhancement *does* generate revenue, directly 
or indirectly, by helping to acquire or retain users.

Asking for a piece of the pie is always reasonable, as is refusing the request. 
It's a matter of finding terms that both sides can agree on. In practice I 
suspect that most companies would refuse to pay royalties but would offer 
something else to sweeten the pie.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Dean Kent 
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 9:47 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler programmer wanted

I think this is a bad analogy.   The guy who installs or fixes an item
that does not actually generate revenue certainly can ask for residuals
- but there aren't any since there is no income from it.

However, if residuals is a thing (which it is in some industries) then
asking for a piece of the pie for something that generates a regular
income stream seems reasonable.   In fact, I would suggest that it does
exist - though it isn't common.   There are some companies that will pay
a tiny percentage of revenue generated by patents that result in
revenue.   More often, however, they pay a 'bounty' for those patents
and require the IP be assigned to them.   I don't think it is a stretch
to claim that a significant contributor of a bit of software should get
a residual.   If we stretch it a bit further, isn't that what a
licensing fee is? So at that point, we are not discussing residuals, but
(partial or full) ownership.   I would suggest that if the software
industry needs anything to be stronger, it is how IP rights are handled.

I live in California.  The company I worked for was bought out by a very
large software company over 20 years ago.   As part of the employment
agreement for this acquiring company we had to sign a contract that
stated anything we thought, said, did, wrote, or otherwise created -
whether at work or at home - while employed was owned by the company.
I balked until I turned the page and it said "does not apply to
California or Minnesota employees". State laws prevented them from
snatching ownership for most of what they were claiming.  California
law, to the best of my knowledge, does give the employer ownership of an
invention/product if it was developed using company resources, and/or
knowledge that could only have been acquired through that employer.
Otherwise, it is owned by the person who developed it.Disclaimer:  IANAL

On 12/3/2023 3:00 PM, Tom Brennan wrote:
> Should I pay something to the guy who put the shingles on my house
> every time it rains?
>
> It's a trick question.  I'm the guy who put the shingles on my house.
>
> On 12/3/2023 12:07 PM, Wayne Bickerdike wrote:
>> When a bank runs an EFTPOS transaction, a fee is charged, all thanks to
>> some code. When they run a mortgage amortization program, a debit occurs
>> on  a periodic basis. The whole system of direct debits generates a
>> transfer of funds from a customer to the code executor...
>>
>> I could go on
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 7:03 AM Bob Bridges 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> LOL, the Indians and I would have more work offered to us :).
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>>>
>>> /* I like what the Roman fellow said: “I think nothing human alien
>>> to me.”
>>> When I read of a Mao or a Susan Smith, I try to imagine their
>>> temptations,
>>> not to exculpate them, but to implicate myself. Part of the
>>> greatness of
>>> Macbeth lies in the way it shows terrible crimes from the inside,
>>> without
>>> in the least excusing them.  -Joe Sobran, Dec 1994 */
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Doug Fuerst
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 15:37
>>>
>>> Maybe we should ask for residuals for our creative property like
>>> actors.
>>> We give it all away too easily.  What would happen if we all went on
>>> strike?
>>>
>>> --
>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Bob Bridges]

Ok, now you've got me curious.  While I'm employed by a California software 
company, I ~am~ a company resource, am I not?  How is the law worded to bypass 
that (so to speak)?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* A tart temper never mellows with age, and a sharp tongue is the only edged 
tool that grows keener with constant use.  -from "Rip van Vinkle" by Washington 
Irving */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Dean Kent
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 09:48

As part of the employment agreement for this acquiring company we had to 
sign a contract that stated anything we thought, said, did, wrote, or otherwise 
created - whether at work or at home - while employed was owned by the 
company[But] State laws prevented them from snatching ownership for most of 
what they were claiming.  California law, to the best of my knowledge, does 
give the employer ownership of an invention/product if it was developed using 
company resources, and/or

--
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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Dean Kent]

I think this is a bad analogy.   The guy who installs or fixes an item 
that does not actually generate revenue certainly can ask for residuals 
- but there aren't any since there is no income from it.


However, if residuals is a thing (which it is in some industries) then 
asking for a piece of the pie for something that generates a regular 
income stream seems reasonable.   In fact, I would suggest that it does 
exist - though it isn't common.   There are some companies that will pay 
a tiny percentage of revenue generated by patents that result in 
revenue.   More often, however, they pay a 'bounty' for those patents 
and require the IP be assigned to them.   I don't think it is a stretch 
to claim that a significant contributor of a bit of software should get 
a residual.   If we stretch it a bit further, isn't that what a 
licensing fee is? So at that point, we are not discussing residuals, but 
(partial or full) ownership.   I would suggest that if the software 
industry needs anything to be stronger, it is how IP rights are handled.


I live in California.  The company I worked for was bought out by a very 
large software company over 20 years ago.   As part of the employment 
agreement for this acquiring company we had to sign a contract that 
stated anything we thought, said, did, wrote, or otherwise created - 
whether at work or at home - while employed was owned by the company.   
I balked until I turned the page and it said "does not apply to 
California or Minnesota employees". State laws prevented them from 
snatching ownership for most of what they were claiming.  California 
law, to the best of my knowledge, does give the employer ownership of an 
invention/product if it was developed using company resources, and/or 
knowledge that could only have been acquired through that employer.   
Otherwise, it is owned by the person who developed it.    Disclaimer:  IANAL


On 12/3/2023 3:00 PM, Tom Brennan wrote:
Should I pay something to the guy who put the shingles on my house 
every time it rains?


It's a trick question.  I'm the guy who put the shingles on my house.

On 12/3/2023 12:07 PM, Wayne Bickerdike wrote:

When a bank runs an EFTPOS transaction, a fee is charged, all thanks to
some code. When they run a mortgage amortization program, a debit occurs
on  a periodic basis. The whole system of direct debits generates a
transfer of funds from a customer to the code executor...

I could go on

On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 7:03 AM Bob Bridges  
wrote:



LOL, the Indians and I would have more work offered to us :).

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* I like what the Roman fellow said: “I think nothing human alien 
to me.”
When I read of a Mao or a Susan Smith, I try to imagine their 
temptations,
not to exculpate them, but to implicate myself. Part of the 
greatness of
Macbeth lies in the way it shows terrible crimes from the inside, 
without

in the least excusing them.  -Joe Sobran, Dec 1994 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
Behalf

Of Doug Fuerst
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 15:37

Maybe we should ask for residuals for our creative property like 
actors.
We give it all away too easily.  What would happen if we all went on 
strike?


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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Tom Brennan]

Should I pay something to the guy who put the shingles on my house every 
time it rains?


It's a trick question.  I'm the guy who put the shingles on my house.

On 12/3/2023 12:07 PM, Wayne Bickerdike wrote:

When a bank runs an EFTPOS transaction, a fee is charged, all thanks to
some code. When they run a mortgage amortization program, a debit occurs
on  a periodic basis. The whole system of direct debits generates a
transfer of funds from a customer to the code executor...

I could go on

On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 7:03 AM Bob Bridges  wrote:


LOL, the Indians and I would have more work offered to us :).

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* I like what the Roman fellow said: “I think nothing human alien to me.”
When I read of a Mao or a Susan Smith, I try to imagine their temptations,
not to exculpate them, but to implicate myself. Part of the greatness of
Macbeth lies in the way it shows terrible crimes from the inside, without
in the least excusing them.  -Joe Sobran, Dec 1994 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
Of Doug Fuerst
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 15:37

Maybe we should ask for residuals for our creative property like actors.
We give it all away too easily.  What would happen if we all went on strike?

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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Seymour J Metz]

He can ask. There might even be companies who would sign off on it. i suspect, 
yjogh, that most would decline.

if residuals ever5 became common practice, would that include the people who 
maintained the program? It has the potential to be a huge can of worms.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Bob 
Bridges 
Sent: Sunday, December 3, 2023 3:03 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler programmer wanted

LOL, the Indians and I would have more work offered to us :).

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* I like what the Roman fellow said: “I think nothing human alien to me.” When 
I read of a Mao or a Susan Smith, I try to imagine their temptations, not to 
exculpate them, but to implicate myself. Part of the greatness of Macbeth lies 
in the way it shows terrible crimes from the inside, without in the least 
excusing them.  -Joe Sobran, Dec 1994 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Doug Fuerst
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 15:37

Maybe we should ask for residuals for our creative property like actors.  We 
give it all away too easily.  What would happen if we all went on strike?

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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Bob Bridges]

I think you're both dreaming.  If you wrote that program on your own time and 
then sold it to the customer, you could sell it on whatever terms you and they 
could agree on, including residuals if that's what you (and they) want.  If 
they paid you to write it, then it's theirs, that's all.

...Unless, as has been pointed out, you manage to make residuals a condition of 
your employment.  If you think you can get your employer to agree to pay you 
for your time and then pay you again when the program runs, well, feel free to 
demand that.  I'll watch.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Even Popeye didn't eat his spinach until he absolutely had to.  -from 
Important Stuff My Kids Have Taught Me */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Wayne Bickerdike
Sent: Sunday, December 3, 2023 15:08

When a bank runs an EFTPOS transaction, a fee is charged, all thanks to some 
code. When they run a mortgage amortization program, a debit occurs on  a 
periodic basis. The whole system of direct debits generates a transfer of funds 
from a customer to the code executor...

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Dave Beagle
Sent: Sunday, December 3, 2023 15:07

Incorrect. Every time a program of mine ran, the company saved money and the 
executives got paid bonuses or salaries (often both) for my work.

--- On Sunday, December 3, 2023, 3:01 PM, Bob Bridges  
wrote:
Interesting analogy.  But surely there's one obvious difference:  When an 
entertainment program runs, someone gets paid, and residuals mean whoever gets 
paid (by subscribers, say) has to share the receipts with the writers.  But 
when a company runs a program they own, they don't receive any money for it; 
it's just work getting done.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Dave Beagle
Sent: Sunday, December 3, 2023 14:17

I always thought this was something a union for IT workers would ask for in a 
contract. Why should actors get residuals every time a show runs and not the 
programmers every time their program runs? Written programs are every bit 
intellectual property as a TV program.

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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Wayne Bickerdike]

When a bank runs an EFTPOS transaction, a fee is charged, all thanks to
some code. When they run a mortgage amortization program, a debit occurs
on  a periodic basis. The whole system of direct debits generates a
transfer of funds from a customer to the code executor...

I could go on

On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 7:03 AM Bob Bridges  wrote:

> LOL, the Indians and I would have more work offered to us :).
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* I like what the Roman fellow said: “I think nothing human alien to me.”
> When I read of a Mao or a Susan Smith, I try to imagine their temptations,
> not to exculpate them, but to implicate myself. Part of the greatness of
> Macbeth lies in the way it shows terrible crimes from the inside, without
> in the least excusing them.  -Joe Sobran, Dec 1994 */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Doug Fuerst
> Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 15:37
>
> Maybe we should ask for residuals for our creative property like actors.
> We give it all away too easily.  What would happen if we all went on strike?
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>


-- 
Wayne V. Bickerdike

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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Dave Beagle]

Incorrect. Every time a program of mine ran, the company saved money and the 
executives got paid bonuses or salaries (often both) for my work.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, December 3, 2023, 3:01 PM, Bob Bridges  wrote:

Interesting analogy.  But surely there's one obvious difference:  When an 
entertainment program runs, someone gets paid, and residuals mean whoever gets 
paid (by subscribers, say) has to share the receipts with the writers.  But 
when a company runs a program they own, they don't receive any money for it; 
it's just work getting done.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Our cause is never more in danger than when a human, no longer desiring, but 
still intending, to do our Enemy's will, looks round upon a universe from which 
every trace of Him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been abandoned, 
and still obeys.  -advice to a tempter, from The Screwtape Letters by C S Lewis 
*/

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Dave Beagle
Sent: Sunday, December 3, 2023 14:17

I always thought this was something a union for IT workers would ask for in a 
contract. Why should actors get residuals every time a show runs and not the 
programmers every time their program runs? Written programs are every bit 
intellectual property as a TV program.

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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Bob Bridges]

LOL, the Indians and I would have more work offered to us :).

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* I like what the Roman fellow said: “I think nothing human alien to me.” When 
I read of a Mao or a Susan Smith, I try to imagine their temptations, not to 
exculpate them, but to implicate myself. Part of the greatness of Macbeth lies 
in the way it shows terrible crimes from the inside, without in the least 
excusing them.  -Joe Sobran, Dec 1994 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Doug Fuerst
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 15:37

Maybe we should ask for residuals for our creative property like actors.  We 
give it all away too easily.  What would happen if we all went on strike?

--
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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Bob Bridges]

Interesting analogy.  But surely there's one obvious difference:  When an 
entertainment program runs, someone gets paid, and residuals mean whoever gets 
paid (by subscribers, say) has to share the receipts with the writers.  But 
when a company runs a program they own, they don't receive any money for it; 
it's just work getting done.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Our cause is never more in danger than when a human, no longer desiring, but 
still intending, to do our Enemy's will, looks round upon a universe from which 
every trace of Him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been abandoned, 
and still obeys.  -advice to a tempter, from The Screwtape Letters by C S Lewis 
*/

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Dave Beagle
Sent: Sunday, December 3, 2023 14:17

I always thought this was something a union for IT workers would ask for in a 
contract. Why should actors get residuals every time a show runs and not the 
programmers every time their program runs? Written programs are every bit 
intellectual property as a TV program.

--
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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Dave Beagle]

I always thought this was something a union for IT workers would ask for in a 
contract. Why should actors get residuals every time a show runs and not the 
programmers every time their program runs? Written programs are every bit 
intellectual property as a TV program.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, December 3, 2023, 12:20 PM, Doug Fuerst  
wrote:

$40-$45 for a VTAM/TCP-IP/Network specialist with MVS, CICS, DB2, and MQ 
skills thrown in.

Doug Fuerst



-- Original Message --
>From "Bob Bridges" 
To IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date 12/2/2023 22:43:20 PM
Subject Re: Assembler programmer wanted

>Hey, I didn't say we don't ~want~ better rates.  I didn't even say we don't 
>deserve them (though I might if pressed.  I don't use the word "deserve" 
>casually).  I said only that we don't need them - and added that I was 
>speaking strictly for myself .
>
>When I was an employee I'd been at the same company for 14 years.  Inevitably 
>I was underpaid, and I say that not as an indictment of my employer, it's just 
>what happens when you stay at the same place that long.  I've been contracting 
>since then and the money is much better out here.  Like a convenience store, 
>the buyers have to pay more for convenience - in the case of computer 
>contracting, that would be the ability to send me home for any reason or no 
>reason ("we decided not to do that project after all").  But they have to pay 
>extra cash for it.  Even after paying my own travel expenses, and even 
>counting the often-long periods between gigs, I was still better off 
>financially when I started contracting.
>
>$45/hr?  If you're talking about COBOL developers, hasn't the price risen on 
>them in the last ten years, due to increasing scarcity and no decrease in the 
>need?  I'm not in that market any longer (I do RACF/ACF2/TSS), but it seems to 
>me I've been seeing $50/hr and up for them.
>
>---
>Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
>/* I have a page bookmarked somewhere — but I can't find it just at the moment 
>— in which a guy fills the screen with details about his [World of Warcraft] 
>characters, what level they are, what they're doing, where they're doing it, 
>what they plan to do next, and ending "And now you know how I feel when you 
>talk about sports."  -Dorothy J. Heydt */
>
>-Original Message-
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
>Doug Fuerst
>Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 18:36
>
>Let me get this right: Companies will pay their lawyers $750 an hour and up, 
>but the people that write the code to keep their businesses running, that do 
>the support work to keep those businesses running, us they want to pay $45 an 
>hour for, and give us a list of skills they want a mile long.
>
>I said this facetiously originally, but what I just said is unfortunately the 
>truth. You all took it seriously, so there it is.  Seriously.
>
>Lately, the numbers are back to pre-Covid.  Thankfully, I don't have much time 
>left in this business.  By that time, ChatGPT will be fixing it all. I'll be 
>on the golf course.  So far, ChatGPT can't swing a golf club.
>
>-- Original Message --
>From "Bob Bridges" 
>Date 12/2/2023 16:51:46
>
>>Again, I'm speaking only for myself, but I definitely think we DON'T "need" 
>>better terms.  I have a great job that pays me more money than I spend for 
>>doing what I wanted to do anyway.
>>
>>(Not that I'd insist on giving back some of it if folks insist on
>>offering more.  But I don't want to ride the edge of client resentment.
>>If they're gritting their teeth and thinking "Boy, he'd better be worth
>>it!" the day I come aboard, I'm already behind.  Better they should
>>feel superior at having gotten me for less than they were willing to
>>pay.)
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
>>Behalf Of Doug Fuerst
>>Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 16:37
>>
>>We need a better union. Maybe Fran Drescher is available. Actors have better 
>>terms. Former Nanny's apparently can get them.
>>
>>We need better terms.
>
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>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Doug Fuerst]

$40-$45 for a VTAM/TCP-IP/Network specialist with MVS, CICS, DB2, and MQ 
skills thrown in.


Doug Fuerst



-- Original Message --

From "Bob Bridges" 

To IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date 12/2/2023 22:43:20 PM
Subject Re: Assembler programmer wanted


Hey, I didn't say we don't ~want~ better rates.  I didn't even say we don't deserve them 
(though I might if pressed.  I don't use the word "deserve" casually).  I said 
only that we don't need them - and added that I was speaking strictly for myself .

When I was an employee I'd been at the same company for 14 years.  Inevitably I was 
underpaid, and I say that not as an indictment of my employer, it's just what happens 
when you stay at the same place that long.  I've been contracting since then and the 
money is much better out here.  Like a convenience store, the buyers have to pay more for 
convenience - in the case of computer contracting, that would be the ability to send me 
home for any reason or no reason ("we decided not to do that project after 
all").  But they have to pay extra cash for it.  Even after paying my own travel 
expenses, and even counting the often-long periods between gigs, I was still better off 
financially when I started contracting.

$45/hr?  If you're talking about COBOL developers, hasn't the price risen on 
them in the last ten years, due to increasing scarcity and no decrease in the 
need?  I'm not in that market any longer (I do RACF/ACF2/TSS), but it seems to 
me I've been seeing $50/hr and up for them.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* I have a page bookmarked somewhere — but I can't find it just at the moment — in which 
a guy fills the screen with details about his [World of Warcraft] characters, what level 
they are, what they're doing, where they're doing it, what they plan to do next, and 
ending "And now you know how I feel when you talk about sports."  -Dorothy J. 
Heydt */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Doug Fuerst
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 18:36

Let me get this right: Companies will pay their lawyers $750 an hour and up, 
but the people that write the code to keep their businesses running, that do 
the support work to keep those businesses running, us they want to pay $45 an 
hour for, and give us a list of skills they want a mile long.

I said this facetiously originally, but what I just said is unfortunately the 
truth. You all took it seriously, so there it is.  Seriously.

Lately, the numbers are back to pre-Covid.  Thankfully, I don't have much time 
left in this business.  By that time, ChatGPT will be fixing it all. I'll be on 
the golf course.  So far, ChatGPT can't swing a golf club.

-- Original Message --
From "Bob Bridges" 
Date 12/2/2023 16:51:46


Again, I'm speaking only for myself, but I definitely think we DON'T "need" 
better terms.  I have a great job that pays me more money than I spend for doing what I 
wanted to do anyway.

(Not that I'd insist on giving back some of it if folks insist on
offering more.  But I don't want to ride the edge of client resentment.
If they're gritting their teeth and thinking "Boy, he'd better be worth
it!" the day I come aboard, I'm already behind.  Better they should
feel superior at having gotten me for less than they were willing to
pay.)

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
Behalf Of Doug Fuerst
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 16:37

We need a better union. Maybe Fran Drescher is available. Actors have better 
terms. Former Nanny's apparently can get them.

We need better terms.


--
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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Bob Bridges]

Hey, I didn't say we don't ~want~ better rates.  I didn't even say we don't 
deserve them (though I might if pressed.  I don't use the word "deserve" 
casually).  I said only that we don't need them - and added that I was speaking 
strictly for myself :).

When I was an employee I'd been at the same company for 14 years.  Inevitably I 
was underpaid, and I say that not as an indictment of my employer, it's just 
what happens when you stay at the same place that long.  I've been contracting 
since then and the money is much better out here.  Like a convenience store, 
the buyers have to pay more for convenience - in the case of computer 
contracting, that would be the ability to send me home for any reason or no 
reason ("we decided not to do that project after all").  But they have to pay 
extra cash for it.  Even after paying my own travel expenses, and even counting 
the often-long periods between gigs, I was still better off financially when I 
started contracting.

$45/hr?  If you're talking about COBOL developers, hasn't the price risen on 
them in the last ten years, due to increasing scarcity and no decrease in the 
need?  I'm not in that market any longer (I do RACF/ACF2/TSS), but it seems to 
me I've been seeing $50/hr and up for them.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* I have a page bookmarked somewhere — but I can't find it just at the moment 
— in which a guy fills the screen with details about his [World of Warcraft] 
characters, what level they are, what they're doing, where they're doing it, 
what they plan to do next, and ending "And now you know how I feel when you 
talk about sports."  -Dorothy J. Heydt */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Doug Fuerst
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 18:36

Let me get this right: Companies will pay their lawyers $750 an hour and up, 
but the people that write the code to keep their businesses running, that do 
the support work to keep those businesses running, us they want to pay $45 an 
hour for, and give us a list of skills they want a mile long.

I said this facetiously originally, but what I just said is unfortunately the 
truth. You all took it seriously, so there it is.  Seriously.

Lately, the numbers are back to pre-Covid.  Thankfully, I don't have much time 
left in this business.  By that time, ChatGPT will be fixing it all. I'll be on 
the golf course.  So far, ChatGPT can't swing a golf club.

-- Original Message --
>From "Bob Bridges" 
Date 12/2/2023 16:51:46

>Again, I'm speaking only for myself, but I definitely think we DON'T "need" 
>better terms.  I have a great job that pays me more money than I spend for 
>doing what I wanted to do anyway.
>
>(Not that I'd insist on giving back some of it if folks insist on 
>offering more.  But I don't want to ride the edge of client resentment.  
>If they're gritting their teeth and thinking "Boy, he'd better be worth 
>it!" the day I come aboard, I'm already behind.  Better they should 
>feel superior at having gotten me for less than they were willing to 
>pay.)
>
>-Original Message-
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
>Behalf Of Doug Fuerst
>Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 16:37
>
>We need a better union. Maybe Fran Drescher is available. Actors have better 
>terms. Former Nanny's apparently can get them.
>
>We need better terms.

--
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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Doug Fuerst]

Let me get this right: Companies will pay their lawyers $750 an hour and 
up, but the people that write the code to keep their businesses running, 
that do the support work to keep those businesses running, us they want 
to pay $45 an hour for, and give us a list of skills they want a mile 
long.
I said this facetiously originally, but what I just said is 
unfortunately the truth. You all took it seriously, so there it is. 
Seriously.

Lately, the numbers are back to pre-Covid.
Thankfully, I don't have much time left in this business.
By that time, ChatGPT will be fixing it all. I'll be on the golf course. 
So far, ChatGPT can't swing a golf club.


Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --

From "Bob Bridges" 

To IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date 12/2/2023 16:51:46 PM
Subject Re: Assembler programmer wanted


Again, I'm speaking only for myself, but I definitely think we DON'T "need" 
better terms.  I have a great job that pays me more money than I spend for doing what I 
wanted to do anyway.

(Not that I'd insist on giving back some of it if folks insist on offering more.  But I 
don't want to ride the edge of client resentment.  If they're gritting their teeth and 
thinking "Boy, he'd better be worth it!" the day I come aboard, I'm already 
behind.  Better they should feel superior at having gotten me for less than they were 
willing to pay.)

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* As a general rule, people marry most happily with their own kind. The 
trouble lies in the fact that people usually marry at an age where they do not 
really know what their own kind is.  -Robertson Davies */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Doug Fuerst
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 16:37

We need a better union. Maybe Fran Drescher is available. Actors have better 
terms. Former Nanny's apparently can get them.

We need better terms.

-- Original Message --
From "Mike Schwab" 
Date 12/2/2023 16:11:33 PM


If you wrote it while employed or under hourly contract its a work for
hire and company owns.  If paid for a finish product or during off duty
time you have the copyright and resellable, but strongly suggested to
incle the copyright assignment in the sales contract.

--- On Sat, Dec 2, 2023 at 2:37 PM Doug Fuerst  wrote:

  Maybe we should ask for residuals for our creative property like actors.
  We give it all away too easily.

  What would happen if we all went on strike?

  Interesting thought


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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Seymour J Metz]

Whether it is a work for hire depends on a lot of variables. Generally 
speaking, if it is part of your regular duties or if it is a deliverable in a 
contract you signed, then it is a work for hire, otherwise it belongs to you. 
Best practice is to discuss the issue up front and sign a contract specifying 
who owns what.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Mike Schwab 
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 4:11 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler programmer wanted

If you wrote it while employed or under hourly contract its a work for hire
and company owns.  If paid for a finish product or during off duty time you
have the copyright and resellable, but strongly suggested to incle the
copyright assignment in the sales contract.

On Sat, Dec 2, 2023 at 2:37 PM Doug Fuerst  wrote:

> Maybe we should ask for residuals for our creative property like actors.
> We give it all away too easily.
>
> What would happen if we all went on strike?
>
> Interesting thought
>
> Doug Fuerst
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From "Bob Bridges" 
> To IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Date 12/2/2023 15:30:51 PM
> Subject Re: Assembler programmer wanted
>
> >Can't speak for anyone else, but I usually just take (or turn down) the
> first offer, mostly I think out of poor self-image.  Not sure why, because
> I don't mind dickering over a car.
> >
> >The only exception I can remember off-hand is when a consulting company
> that employed me was looking to cut costs, and asked that I go independent
> and start invoicing them rather than being a W-2.  They offered me the same
> rate I'd been making as an employee, which wasn't going to work for me if
> they stopped paying me for bench time.  But mostly I say "$65/hr?  Yeah, I
> can do that".  Shameful, I know.
> >
> >This, by the way, is one of those differences I had in mind when I said
> Yankee and Indian recruiters approach the negotiation differently.
> American companies have a definite range in mind and aren't usually shy
> about stating it in the opening email.  (Although I wouldn't be surprised
> if they give the lower part of the range, knowing they can raise it if they
> run across a really attractive candidate.)  Indian companies don’t usually
> state the range up front; instead I see "please send us your resume and
> your lowest rate...".  Different assumptions about the way the process
> should work, I suppose.
> >
> >---
> >Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> >
> >/* The cure for boredom is curiosity.  There is no cure for curiosity.
> -Dorothy Parker */
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Seymour J Metz
> >Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 13:05
> >
> >How many programmers negotiate when a recruiter contacts them with a
> lowball offer, and how many just move it to the circular file? When I'm
> looking for people, I don't want to scare away good candidates with an
> offer that might offend them; I ask "What are you looking for?".
> >
> >
> >From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Bob Bridges 
> >Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 12:01 AM
> >
> >On the other hand maybe it's just a negotiating tactic.  There are
> several differences in the way Indian and Yankee recruiters approach me
> (and I assume everyone else too); maybe lowballing is just one of the ways
> they're used to doing business, with the assumption that they'll have to go
> higher to actually close the deal.
> >
> >...$125/hr, really?  I should maybe pay more attention to the advice a
> fellow contractor gave me a couple decades ago.  I was working for ...
> well, apparently you would regard it as peanuts although it's always been
> adequate for me.  But Joe said I should demand $250/hr.  I'd work only
> about a third of the time, but since that's about three times what I
> typically was getting, it would come out even - and in the slack periods I
> could work on some saleable project.  I understood what he was saying; I
> just couldn't find a way to say "$250/hr" with a straight face.
> >
> >Maybe that's a common foible.  My ex made really high-end decorated
> cakes, the sort that we saw going for $150 and up at state fairs; but she
> couldn't bring herself to ask more for her work than the cost of
> materials.  She just couldn't believe her work was worth it.
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: IBM Mainframe Di

Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Seymour J Metz]

The Devil is in the details. several US companies ask you to sign away your 
intellectual property rights; I've found that they are willing to accept 
changes if they are reasonable. It's prudent for both the employee and the 
employer to be clear up front who owns what up front.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Mike Schwab 
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 4:11 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler programmer wanted

If you wrote it while employed or under hourly contract its a work for hire
and company owns.  If paid for a finish product or during off duty time you
have the copyright and resellable, but strongly suggested to incle the
copyright assignment in the sales contract.

On Sat, Dec 2, 2023 at 2:37 PM Doug Fuerst  wrote:

> Maybe we should ask for residuals for our creative property like actors.
> We give it all away too easily.
>
> What would happen if we all went on strike?
>
> Interesting thought
>
> Doug Fuerst
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From "Bob Bridges" 
> To IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Date 12/2/2023 15:30:51 PM
> Subject Re: Assembler programmer wanted
>
> >Can't speak for anyone else, but I usually just take (or turn down) the
> first offer, mostly I think out of poor self-image.  Not sure why, because
> I don't mind dickering over a car.
> >
> >The only exception I can remember off-hand is when a consulting company
> that employed me was looking to cut costs, and asked that I go independent
> and start invoicing them rather than being a W-2.  They offered me the same
> rate I'd been making as an employee, which wasn't going to work for me if
> they stopped paying me for bench time.  But mostly I say "$65/hr?  Yeah, I
> can do that".  Shameful, I know.
> >
> >This, by the way, is one of those differences I had in mind when I said
> Yankee and Indian recruiters approach the negotiation differently.
> American companies have a definite range in mind and aren't usually shy
> about stating it in the opening email.  (Although I wouldn't be surprised
> if they give the lower part of the range, knowing they can raise it if they
> run across a really attractive candidate.)  Indian companies don’t usually
> state the range up front; instead I see "please send us your resume and
> your lowest rate...".  Different assumptions about the way the process
> should work, I suppose.
> >
> >---
> >Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> >
> >/* The cure for boredom is curiosity.  There is no cure for curiosity.
> -Dorothy Parker */
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Seymour J Metz
> >Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 13:05
> >
> >How many programmers negotiate when a recruiter contacts them with a
> lowball offer, and how many just move it to the circular file? When I'm
> looking for people, I don't want to scare away good candidates with an
> offer that might offend them; I ask "What are you looking for?".
> >
> >
> >From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Bob Bridges 
> >Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 12:01 AM
> >
> >On the other hand maybe it's just a negotiating tactic.  There are
> several differences in the way Indian and Yankee recruiters approach me
> (and I assume everyone else too); maybe lowballing is just one of the ways
> they're used to doing business, with the assumption that they'll have to go
> higher to actually close the deal.
> >
> >...$125/hr, really?  I should maybe pay more attention to the advice a
> fellow contractor gave me a couple decades ago.  I was working for ...
> well, apparently you would regard it as peanuts although it's always been
> adequate for me.  But Joe said I should demand $250/hr.  I'd work only
> about a third of the time, but since that's about three times what I
> typically was getting, it would come out even - and in the slack periods I
> could work on some saleable project.  I understood what he was saying; I
> just couldn't find a way to say "$250/hr" with a straight face.
> >
> >Maybe that's a common foible.  My ex made really high-end decorated
> cakes, the sort that we saw going for $150 and up at state fairs; but she
> couldn't bring herself to ask more for her work than the cost of
> materials.  She just couldn't believe her work was worth it.
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Tony Harminc
>

Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Bob Bridges]

Again, I'm speaking only for myself, but I definitely think we DON'T "need" 
better terms.  I have a great job that pays me more money than I spend for 
doing what I wanted to do anyway.

(Not that I'd insist on giving back some of it if folks insist on offering 
more.  But I don't want to ride the edge of client resentment.  If they're 
gritting their teeth and thinking "Boy, he'd better be worth it!" the day I 
come aboard, I'm already behind.  Better they should feel superior at having 
gotten me for less than they were willing to pay.)

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* As a general rule, people marry most happily with their own kind. The 
trouble lies in the fact that people usually marry at an age where they do not 
really know what their own kind is.  -Robertson Davies */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Doug Fuerst
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 16:37

We need a better union. Maybe Fran Drescher is available. Actors have better 
terms. Former Nanny's apparently can get them.

We need better terms.

-- Original Message --
>From "Mike Schwab" 
Date 12/2/2023 16:11:33 PM

>If you wrote it while employed or under hourly contract its a work for 
>hire and company owns.  If paid for a finish product or during off duty 
>time you have the copyright and resellable, but strongly suggested to 
>incle the copyright assignment in the sales contract.
>
>--- On Sat, Dec 2, 2023 at 2:37 PM Doug Fuerst  wrote:
>>  Maybe we should ask for residuals for our creative property like actors.
>>  We give it all away too easily.
>>
>>  What would happen if we all went on strike?
>>
>>  Interesting thought

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Doug Fuerst]

We need a better union. Maybe Fran Drescher is available. Actors have 
better terms. Former Nanny's apparently can get them.


We need better terms.

Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --

From "Mike Schwab" 

To IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date 12/2/2023 16:11:33 PM
Subject Re: Assembler programmer wanted


If you wrote it while employed or under hourly contract its a work for hire
and company owns.  If paid for a finish product or during off duty time you
have the copyright and resellable, but strongly suggested to incle the
copyright assignment in the sales contract.

On Sat, Dec 2, 2023 at 2:37 PM Doug Fuerst  wrote:


 Maybe we should ask for residuals for our creative property like actors.
 We give it all away too easily.

 What would happen if we all went on strike?

 Interesting thought

 Doug Fuerst


 -- Original Message --
 From "Bob Bridges" 
 To IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
 Date 12/2/2023 15:30:51 PM
 Subject Re: Assembler programmer wanted

 >Can't speak for anyone else, but I usually just take (or turn down) the
 first offer, mostly I think out of poor self-image.  Not sure why, because
 I don't mind dickering over a car.
 >
 >The only exception I can remember off-hand is when a consulting company
 that employed me was looking to cut costs, and asked that I go independent
 and start invoicing them rather than being a W-2.  They offered me the same
 rate I'd been making as an employee, which wasn't going to work for me if
 they stopped paying me for bench time.  But mostly I say "$65/hr?  Yeah, I
 can do that".  Shameful, I know.
 >
 >This, by the way, is one of those differences I had in mind when I said
 Yankee and Indian recruiters approach the negotiation differently.
 American companies have a definite range in mind and aren't usually shy
 about stating it in the opening email.  (Although I wouldn't be surprised
 if they give the lower part of the range, knowing they can raise it if they
 run across a really attractive candidate.)  Indian companies don’t usually
 state the range up front; instead I see "please send us your resume and
 your lowest rate...".  Different assumptions about the way the process
 should work, I suppose.
 >
 >---
 >Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
 >
 >/* The cure for boredom is curiosity.  There is no cure for curiosity.
 -Dorothy Parker */
 >
 >-Original Message-
 >From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
 Of Seymour J Metz
 >Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 13:05
 >
 >How many programmers negotiate when a recruiter contacts them with a
 lowball offer, and how many just move it to the circular file? When I'm
 looking for people, I don't want to scare away good candidates with an
 offer that might offend them; I ask "What are you looking for?".
 >
 >
 >From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
 of Bob Bridges 
 >Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 12:01 AM
 >
 >On the other hand maybe it's just a negotiating tactic.  There are
 several differences in the way Indian and Yankee recruiters approach me
 (and I assume everyone else too); maybe lowballing is just one of the ways
 they're used to doing business, with the assumption that they'll have to go
 higher to actually close the deal.
 >
 >...$125/hr, really?  I should maybe pay more attention to the advice a
 fellow contractor gave me a couple decades ago.  I was working for ...
 well, apparently you would regard it as peanuts although it's always been
 adequate for me.  But Joe said I should demand $250/hr.  I'd work only
 about a third of the time, but since that's about three times what I
 typically was getting, it would come out even - and in the slack periods I
 could work on some saleable project.  I understood what he was saying; I
 just couldn't find a way to say "$250/hr" with a straight face.
 >
 >Maybe that's a common foible.  My ex made really high-end decorated
 cakes, the sort that we saw going for $150 and up at state fairs; but she
 couldn't bring herself to ask more for her work than the cost of
 materials.  She just couldn't believe her work was worth it.
 >
 >-Original Message-
 >From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
 Of Tony Harminc
 >Sent: Friday, December 1, 2023 17:37
 >
 >I interpreted Bob's comment "...I think the rate is unusual; I'm guessing
 they don't think they can get one of their regulars to do it."  as meaning
 he thought it (60-65 $/hr) was high.
 >
 >But I agree that finding someone with serious assembler chops for that
 price isn't going to be easy. $65/hour sounds much more like an all-in
 employee-with-benefits kind of rate back-calculated from a salary.
 >
 >-Original Message-
 >From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
 Of Farley, Peter
 >Sent: Friday, December 1,

Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Mike Schwab]

If you wrote it while employed or under hourly contract its a work for hire
and company owns.  If paid for a finish product or during off duty time you
have the copyright and resellable, but strongly suggested to incle the
copyright assignment in the sales contract.

On Sat, Dec 2, 2023 at 2:37 PM Doug Fuerst  wrote:

> Maybe we should ask for residuals for our creative property like actors.
> We give it all away too easily.
>
> What would happen if we all went on strike?
>
> Interesting thought
>
> Doug Fuerst
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From "Bob Bridges" 
> To IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Date 12/2/2023 15:30:51 PM
> Subject Re: Assembler programmer wanted
>
> >Can't speak for anyone else, but I usually just take (or turn down) the
> first offer, mostly I think out of poor self-image.  Not sure why, because
> I don't mind dickering over a car.
> >
> >The only exception I can remember off-hand is when a consulting company
> that employed me was looking to cut costs, and asked that I go independent
> and start invoicing them rather than being a W-2.  They offered me the same
> rate I'd been making as an employee, which wasn't going to work for me if
> they stopped paying me for bench time.  But mostly I say "$65/hr?  Yeah, I
> can do that".  Shameful, I know.
> >
> >This, by the way, is one of those differences I had in mind when I said
> Yankee and Indian recruiters approach the negotiation differently.
> American companies have a definite range in mind and aren't usually shy
> about stating it in the opening email.  (Although I wouldn't be surprised
> if they give the lower part of the range, knowing they can raise it if they
> run across a really attractive candidate.)  Indian companies don’t usually
> state the range up front; instead I see "please send us your resume and
> your lowest rate...".  Different assumptions about the way the process
> should work, I suppose.
> >
> >---
> >Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> >
> >/* The cure for boredom is curiosity.  There is no cure for curiosity.
> -Dorothy Parker */
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Seymour J Metz
> >Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 13:05
> >
> >How many programmers negotiate when a recruiter contacts them with a
> lowball offer, and how many just move it to the circular file? When I'm
> looking for people, I don't want to scare away good candidates with an
> offer that might offend them; I ask "What are you looking for?".
> >
> >
> >From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Bob Bridges 
> >Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 12:01 AM
> >
> >On the other hand maybe it's just a negotiating tactic.  There are
> several differences in the way Indian and Yankee recruiters approach me
> (and I assume everyone else too); maybe lowballing is just one of the ways
> they're used to doing business, with the assumption that they'll have to go
> higher to actually close the deal.
> >
> >...$125/hr, really?  I should maybe pay more attention to the advice a
> fellow contractor gave me a couple decades ago.  I was working for ...
> well, apparently you would regard it as peanuts although it's always been
> adequate for me.  But Joe said I should demand $250/hr.  I'd work only
> about a third of the time, but since that's about three times what I
> typically was getting, it would come out even - and in the slack periods I
> could work on some saleable project.  I understood what he was saying; I
> just couldn't find a way to say "$250/hr" with a straight face.
> >
> >Maybe that's a common foible.  My ex made really high-end decorated
> cakes, the sort that we saw going for $150 and up at state fairs; but she
> couldn't bring herself to ask more for her work than the cost of
> materials.  She just couldn't believe her work was worth it.
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Tony Harminc
> >Sent: Friday, December 1, 2023 17:37
> >
> >I interpreted Bob's comment "...I think the rate is unusual; I'm guessing
> they don't think they can get one of their regulars to do it."  as meaning
> he thought it (60-65 $/hr) was high.
> >
> >But I agree that finding someone with serious assembler chops for that
> price isn't going to be easy. $65/hour sounds much more like an all-in
> employee-with-benefits kind of rate back-calculated from a salary.
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
>

Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Doug Fuerst]

Maybe we should ask for residuals for our creative property like actors. 
We give it all away too easily.


What would happen if we all went on strike?

Interesting thought

Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --

From "Bob Bridges" 

To IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date 12/2/2023 15:30:51 PM
Subject Re: Assembler programmer wanted


Can't speak for anyone else, but I usually just take (or turn down) the first 
offer, mostly I think out of poor self-image.  Not sure why, because I don't 
mind dickering over a car.

The only exception I can remember off-hand is when a consulting company that employed me 
was looking to cut costs, and asked that I go independent and start invoicing them rather 
than being a W-2.  They offered me the same rate I'd been making as an employee, which 
wasn't going to work for me if they stopped paying me for bench time.  But mostly I say 
"$65/hr?  Yeah, I can do that".  Shameful, I know.

This, by the way, is one of those differences I had in mind when I said Yankee and Indian 
recruiters approach the negotiation differently.  American companies have a definite 
range in mind and aren't usually shy about stating it in the opening email.  (Although I 
wouldn't be surprised if they give the lower part of the range, knowing they can raise it 
if they run across a really attractive candidate.)  Indian companies don’t usually state 
the range up front; instead I see "please send us your resume and your lowest 
rate...".  Different assumptions about the way the process should work, I suppose.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The cure for boredom is curiosity.  There is no cure for curiosity.  
-Dorothy Parker */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 13:05

How many programmers negotiate when a recruiter contacts them with a lowball offer, and 
how many just move it to the circular file? When I'm looking for people, I don't want to 
scare away good candidates with an offer that might offend them; I ask "What are you 
looking for?".


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Bob 
Bridges 
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 12:01 AM

On the other hand maybe it's just a negotiating tactic.  There are several 
differences in the way Indian and Yankee recruiters approach me (and I assume 
everyone else too); maybe lowballing is just one of the ways they're used to 
doing business, with the assumption that they'll have to go higher to actually 
close the deal.

...$125/hr, really?  I should maybe pay more attention to the advice a fellow contractor 
gave me a couple decades ago.  I was working for ... well, apparently you would regard it 
as peanuts although it's always been adequate for me.  But Joe said I should demand 
$250/hr.  I'd work only about a third of the time, but since that's about three times 
what I typically was getting, it would come out even - and in the slack periods I could 
work on some saleable project.  I understood what he was saying; I just couldn't find a 
way to say "$250/hr" with a straight face.

Maybe that's a common foible.  My ex made really high-end decorated cakes, the 
sort that we saw going for $150 and up at state fairs; but she couldn't bring 
herself to ask more for her work than the cost of materials.  She just couldn't 
believe her work was worth it.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Tony Harminc
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2023 17:37

I interpreted Bob's comment "...I think the rate is unusual; I'm guessing they don't 
think they can get one of their regulars to do it."  as meaning he thought it (60-65 
$/hr) was high.

But I agree that finding someone with serious assembler chops for that price 
isn't going to be easy. $65/hour sounds much more like an all-in 
employee-with-benefits kind of rate back-calculated from a salary.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Farley, Peter
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2023 16:31

Agreed, very low.  I asked for and received $125/hr back in 1999 for a complex 
assembler consulting job (BTAM / BDAM / multitasking / etc).   With inflation 
and time passing the starting rate for that kind of work has to go over $200/hr 
at the very least to attract anyone with the talent and experience.

If it is a truly junior position though, say maintaining and perhaps 
documenting old single-function utility ASM subroutines, that might not be a 
terrible starting point to negotiate upwards.  Anything more complicated than 
that, start the negotiation higher, or much higher depending on the actual work 
to be done.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Mike Shaw
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2023 16:15

Gotta be low...

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion Li

Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Bob Bridges]

Can't speak for anyone else, but I usually just take (or turn down) the first 
offer, mostly I think out of poor self-image.  Not sure why, because I don't 
mind dickering over a car.

The only exception I can remember off-hand is when a consulting company that 
employed me was looking to cut costs, and asked that I go independent and start 
invoicing them rather than being a W-2.  They offered me the same rate I'd been 
making as an employee, which wasn't going to work for me if they stopped paying 
me for bench time.  But mostly I say "$65/hr?  Yeah, I can do that".  Shameful, 
I know.

This, by the way, is one of those differences I had in mind when I said Yankee 
and Indian recruiters approach the negotiation differently.  American companies 
have a definite range in mind and aren't usually shy about stating it in the 
opening email.  (Although I wouldn't be surprised if they give the lower part 
of the range, knowing they can raise it if they run across a really attractive 
candidate.)  Indian companies don’t usually state the range up front; instead I 
see "please send us your resume and your lowest rate...".  Different 
assumptions about the way the process should work, I suppose.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The cure for boredom is curiosity.  There is no cure for curiosity.  
-Dorothy Parker */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 13:05

How many programmers negotiate when a recruiter contacts them with a lowball 
offer, and how many just move it to the circular file? When I'm looking for 
people, I don't want to scare away good candidates with an offer that might 
offend them; I ask "What are you looking for?".


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Bob 
Bridges 
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 12:01 AM

On the other hand maybe it's just a negotiating tactic.  There are several 
differences in the way Indian and Yankee recruiters approach me (and I assume 
everyone else too); maybe lowballing is just one of the ways they're used to 
doing business, with the assumption that they'll have to go higher to actually 
close the deal.

...$125/hr, really?  I should maybe pay more attention to the advice a fellow 
contractor gave me a couple decades ago.  I was working for ... well, 
apparently you would regard it as peanuts although it's always been adequate 
for me.  But Joe said I should demand $250/hr.  I'd work only about a third of 
the time, but since that's about three times what I typically was getting, it 
would come out even - and in the slack periods I could work on some saleable 
project.  I understood what he was saying; I just couldn't find a way to say 
"$250/hr" with a straight face.

Maybe that's a common foible.  My ex made really high-end decorated cakes, the 
sort that we saw going for $150 and up at state fairs; but she couldn't bring 
herself to ask more for her work than the cost of materials.  She just couldn't 
believe her work was worth it.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Tony Harminc
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2023 17:37

I interpreted Bob's comment "...I think the rate is unusual; I'm guessing they 
don't think they can get one of their regulars to do it."  as meaning he 
thought it (60-65 $/hr) was high.

But I agree that finding someone with serious assembler chops for that price 
isn't going to be easy. $65/hour sounds much more like an all-in 
employee-with-benefits kind of rate back-calculated from a salary.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Farley, Peter
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2023 16:31

Agreed, very low.  I asked for and received $125/hr back in 1999 for a complex 
assembler consulting job (BTAM / BDAM / multitasking / etc).   With inflation 
and time passing the starting rate for that kind of work has to go over $200/hr 
at the very least to attract anyone with the talent and experience.

If it is a truly junior position though, say maintaining and perhaps 
documenting old single-function utility ASM subroutines, that might not be a 
terrible starting point to negotiate upwards.  Anything more complicated than 
that, start the negotiation higher, or much higher depending on the actual work 
to be done.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Mike Shaw
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2023 16:15

Gotta be low...

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Gord Tomlin
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2023 15:24

--- On 2023-12-01 14:14 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:
Pure curiosity: unusually low or unusually high?

-Original Message-
From: robhbrid...@gmail.com 
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2023 14:14

I have a req here from Enterprise solutions for an assembler programmer, paying 
"60-65 $/hr" on corp-to-corp.  Anyone wanted a copy, let me 

Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Seymour J Metz]

How many programmers negotiate when a recruiter contacts them with a lowball 
offer, and how many just move it to the circular file? When I'm looking for 
people, I don't want to scare away good candidates with an offer that might 
offend them; I ask "What are you looking for?".


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Bob 
Bridges 
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 12:01 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler programmer wanted

What I actually meant is "high for this recruiter".  Enterprise Solutions has 
mostly Indians working their phones, and I expect they hire mostly Indian 
contractors for low rates.  I've never worked for them so I may be doing them 
an injustice.  But the few times I've talked to one of theirs on the phone, I 
heard plenty of other voices on other phones in the background, so I picture a 
large collection of desks in an open room with no cubicle walls.  And usually 
they're talking lower rates, although it's mostly for COBOL developers.

On the other hand maybe it's just a negotiating tactic.  There are several 
differences in the way Indian and Yankee recruiters approach me (and I assume 
everyone else too); maybe lowballing is just one of the ways they're used to 
doing business, with the assumption that they'll have to go higher to actually 
close the deal.

...$125/hr, really?  I should maybe pay more attention to the advice a fellow 
contractor gave me a couple decades ago.  I was working for ... well, 
apparently you would regard it as peanuts although it's always been adequate 
for me.  But Joe said I should demand $250/hr.  I'd work only about a third of 
the time, but since that's about three times what I typically was getting, it 
would come out even - and in the slack periods I could work on some saleable 
project.  I understood what he was saying; I just couldn't find a way to say 
"$250/hr" with a straight face.

Maybe that's a common foible.  My ex made really high-end decorated cakes, the 
sort that we saw going for $150 and up at state fairs; but she couldn't bring 
herself to ask more for her work than the cost of materials.  She just couldn't 
believe her work was worth it.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Important safety note:  If you are explosively decompressed to vacuum, open 
your mouth and exhale immediately.  (Fortunately, screaming in terror has just 
this effect.)  -Geoffrey Landis and S J Van Sickle on sci.space.tech */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Tony Harminc
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2023 17:37

I interpreted Bob's comment "...I think the rate is unusual; I'm guessing they 
don't think they can get one of their regulars to do it."  as meaning he 
thought it (60-65 $/hr) was high.

But I agree that finding someone with serious assembler chops for that price 
isn't going to be easy. $65/hour sounds much more like an all-in 
employee-with-benefits kind of rate back-calculated from a salary.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Farley, Peter
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2023 16:31

Agreed, very low.  I asked for and received $125/hr back in 1999 for a complex 
assembler consulting job (BTAM / BDAM / multitasking / etc).   With inflation 
and time passing the starting rate for that kind of work has to go over $200/hr 
at the very least to attract anyone with the talent and experience.

If it is a truly junior position though, say maintaining and perhaps 
documenting old single-function utility ASM subroutines, that might not be a 
terrible starting point to negotiate upwards.  Anything more complicated than 
that, start the negotiation higher, or much higher depending on the actual work 
to be done.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Mike Shaw
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2023 16:15

Gotta be low...

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Gord Tomlin
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2023 15:24

--- On 2023-12-01 14:14 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:
Pure curiosity: unusually low or unusually high?

-Original Message-
From: robhbrid...@gmail.com 
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2023 14:14

I have a req here from Enterprise solutions for an assembler programmer, paying 
"60-65 $/hr" on corp-to-corp.  Anyone wanted a copy, let me know and I'll pass 
it on.

I've never done business with this recruiter but I think the rate is unusual; 
I'm guessing they don't think they can get one of their regulars to do it.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


-

Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Bob Bridges]

What I actually meant is "high for this recruiter".  Enterprise Solutions has 
mostly Indians working their phones, and I expect they hire mostly Indian 
contractors for low rates.  I've never worked for them so I may be doing them 
an injustice.  But the few times I've talked to one of theirs on the phone, I 
heard plenty of other voices on other phones in the background, so I picture a 
large collection of desks in an open room with no cubicle walls.  And usually 
they're talking lower rates, although it's mostly for COBOL developers.

On the other hand maybe it's just a negotiating tactic.  There are several 
differences in the way Indian and Yankee recruiters approach me (and I assume 
everyone else too); maybe lowballing is just one of the ways they're used to 
doing business, with the assumption that they'll have to go higher to actually 
close the deal.

...$125/hr, really?  I should maybe pay more attention to the advice a fellow 
contractor gave me a couple decades ago.  I was working for ... well, 
apparently you would regard it as peanuts although it's always been adequate 
for me.  But Joe said I should demand $250/hr.  I'd work only about a third of 
the time, but since that's about three times what I typically was getting, it 
would come out even - and in the slack periods I could work on some saleable 
project.  I understood what he was saying; I just couldn't find a way to say 
"$250/hr" with a straight face.

Maybe that's a common foible.  My ex made really high-end decorated cakes, the 
sort that we saw going for $150 and up at state fairs; but she couldn't bring 
herself to ask more for her work than the cost of materials.  She just couldn't 
believe her work was worth it.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Important safety note:  If you are explosively decompressed to vacuum, open 
your mouth and exhale immediately.  (Fortunately, screaming in terror has just 
this effect.)  -Geoffrey Landis and S J Van Sickle on sci.space.tech */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Tony Harminc
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2023 17:37

I interpreted Bob's comment "...I think the rate is unusual; I'm guessing they 
don't think they can get one of their regulars to do it."  as meaning he 
thought it (60-65 $/hr) was high.

But I agree that finding someone with serious assembler chops for that price 
isn't going to be easy. $65/hour sounds much more like an all-in 
employee-with-benefits kind of rate back-calculated from a salary.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Farley, Peter
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2023 16:31

Agreed, very low.  I asked for and received $125/hr back in 1999 for a complex 
assembler consulting job (BTAM / BDAM / multitasking / etc).   With inflation 
and time passing the starting rate for that kind of work has to go over $200/hr 
at the very least to attract anyone with the talent and experience.

If it is a truly junior position though, say maintaining and perhaps 
documenting old single-function utility ASM subroutines, that might not be a 
terrible starting point to negotiate upwards.  Anything more complicated than 
that, start the negotiation higher, or much higher depending on the actual work 
to be done.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Mike Shaw
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2023 16:15

Gotta be low...

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Gord Tomlin
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2023 15:24

--- On 2023-12-01 14:14 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:
Pure curiosity: unusually low or unusually high?

-Original Message-
From: robhbrid...@gmail.com  
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2023 14:14

I have a req here from Enterprise solutions for an assembler programmer, paying 
"60-65 $/hr" on corp-to-corp.  Anyone wanted a copy, let me know and I'll pass 
it on.

I've never done business with this recruiter but I think the rate is unusual; 
I'm guessing they don't think they can get one of their regulars to do it.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Tony Harminc]

On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 at 16:31, Farley, Peter <
031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> Agreed, very low.  I asked for and received $125/hr back in 1999 for a
> complex assembler consulting job (BTAM/BDAM/multitasking/etc.).   With
> inflation and time passing the starting rate for that kind of work has to
> go over $200/hr at the very least to attract anyone with the talent and
> experience.
>

I interpreted Bob's comment "...I think the rate is unusual; I'm guessing
they don't think they can get one of their regulars to do it."  as meaning
he thought it (60-65 $/hr) was high.

But I agree that finding someone with serious assembler chops for that
price isn't going to be easy. $65/hour sounds much more like an all-in
employee-with-benefits kind of rate back-calculated from a salary.

Tony H.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Farley, Peter]

Agreed, very low.  I asked for and received $125/hr back in 1999 for a complex 
assembler consulting job (BTAM/BDAM/multitasking/etc.).   With inflation and 
time passing the starting rate for that kind of work has to go over $200/hr at 
the very least to attract anyone with the talent and experience.

If it is a truly junior position though, say maintaining and perhaps 
documenting old single-function utility ASM subroutines, that might not be a 
terrible starting point to negotiate upwards.  Anything more complicated than 
that, start the negotiation higher, or much higher depending on the actual work 
to be done.

Peter

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Mike Shaw
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2023 4:15 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler programmer wanted


Gotta be low...



Mike Shaw

MVS/QuickRef Support

Chisoft



On Fri, Dec 1, 2023, 3:23 PM Gord Tomlin 
mailto:gt.ibm.li...@actionsoftware.com>>

wrote:



> On 2023-12-01 14:14 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:

> > I think the rate is unusual

>

> Pure curiosity: unusually low or unusually high?

>

--

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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Mike Shaw]

Gotta be low...

Mike Shaw
MVS/QuickRef Support
Chisoft

On Fri, Dec 1, 2023, 3:23 PM Gord Tomlin 
wrote:

> On 2023-12-01 14:14 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:
> > I think the rate is unusual
>
> Pure curiosity: unusually low or unusually high?
>
> --
>
> Regards, Gord Tomlin
> Action Software International
> (a division of Mazda Computer Corporation)
> Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507
> Support: https://actionsoftware.com/support/
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: Assembler programmer wanted

[Gord Tomlin]

On 2023-12-01 14:14 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:

I think the rate is unusual


Pure curiosity: unusually low or unusually high?

--

Regards, Gord Tomlin
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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Jon Perryman]

On Sat, 7 Oct 2023 08:59:28 +0800, David Crayford  wrote:

> there has been some absolute tosh spouted!
> It’s dependent on the OS. On Linux environment variables are stored in the 
> proc file system, /proc//environ. 
> Whoever stated it’s part of the C runtime doesn’t know what they’re talking 
> about. 

"As usual", Crayford doesn't system information is NOT stored in files 
regardless of OS. 

He's being extremely offensive and rude by calling me stupid, especially when 
he lacks basic computer skills. Referring to someone as "whoever wrote" does 
absolve him from violating this groups rules.

1. Like z/OS, Linux does not store system information in files. It is stored in 
control blocks (including environment variables).
2. Like z/OS, system information is not human readable. Binary data must be 
formatted. Environment variables are stored in array that must be formatted.
3. Like z/OS DD SUBSYS= use as pseudo files (not real files), Linux /proc is 
documented as pseudo files. Conversion programs must extract data and present 
it as data in a file.
4. Like Omegamon/MVS, /proc is the Linux system monitor. Monitors reference 
system control blocks rather than store it.
5. Like Omegamon/MVS, /proc is a user interface allowing users to view and 
modify system information.  
6. "environment variables" source is in the C compiler for Linux. Crayford 
could not be bothered to look at the open source code when making false 
statements.
7. Linux developers cannot change "environment variables" code. They must make 
a change request to the C compiler programmers.

How could Crayford ignore so many signs that /proc is not where system 
information is stored.

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Erik Janssen]

Let me try and keep this thread alive ;-)
If the environment variables are in a LE data block, then where were they kept 
when omvs was first introduced? I was under the impression that omvs was 
introduced by before LE, or am I wrong?

Kind regards,
Erik Janssen

On Sat, 7 Oct 2023 08:59:28 +0800, David Crayford  wrote:

>> On 7 Oct 2023, at 6:28 am, Kirk Wolf  wrote:
>> 
>> This is a thread that won't die.  
>
>And there has been some absolute tosh spouted!
>
>> 
>> In z/OS, environment variables are in Language Environment, in the CEEEDB 
>> ("Enclave Data Block").   If your assembler code is running in LE, you can 
>> access/set them.   An empty table is created when the enclave is 
>> initialized, which can be BEFORE dubbing which happens at the first kernel 
>> call.Look in the LE books if you don't believe me.
>
>I believe you. It’s dependent on the OS. On Linux environment variables are 
>stored in the proc file system, /proc//environ. Whoever stated it’s part 
>of the C runtime doesn’t know what they’re talking about. 
>
>> 
>> Kirk Wolf
>> Dovetailed Technologies
>> http:// <http://dovetail.com>coztoolkit.com
>> 
>> On Thu, Oct 5, 2023, at 8:15 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>>> The issue isn't what has access to environmental variables, but rather what 
>>> creates them. 
>>> 
>>> Further, they are useful in other contexts. An otherwise legacy program 
>>> that uses a Unix command may need to pass the odd environment variable to 
>>> control options for which there are no switches.
>>> 
>>> ________
>>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
>>> Jon Perryman 
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2023 9:06 PM
>>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>>> Subject: Re: Assembler access to USS functions
>>> 
>>> On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 20:54:56 +, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Even if you have an OMVS segment, you don't get dubbed ntil you use a Unix 
>>>> service.
>>> 
>>> Environment variables are not unique to UNIX and do not require dubbing. It 
>>> is a feature of the C/C++ language that is in the STDLIB (standard library) 
>>> and can be used in any environment.
>>> 
>>> Environment variables are only useful in languages that do not support 
>>> global variables or inter-language global variables is not supported. I 
>>> suspect that C and Cobol global variables are shared because of LE. 
>>> Languages like shells, Python, Java and others which are runtime languages 
>>> don't have access to C and Cobol global variables which makes environment 
>>> variables a simple inter-language-communications feature.
>>> 
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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[David Crayford]

> On 7 Oct 2023, at 6:28 am, Kirk Wolf  wrote:
> 
> This is a thread that won't die.  

And there has been some absolute tosh spouted!

> 
> In z/OS, environment variables are in Language Environment, in the CEEEDB 
> ("Enclave Data Block").   If your assembler code is running in LE, you can 
> access/set them.   An empty table is created when the enclave is initialized, 
> which can be BEFORE dubbing which happens at the first kernel call.Look 
> in the LE books if you don't believe me.

I believe you. It’s dependent on the OS. On Linux environment variables are 
stored in the proc file system, /proc//environ. Whoever stated it’s part 
of the C runtime doesn’t know what they’re talking about. 

> 
> Kirk Wolf
> Dovetailed Technologies
> http:// <http://dovetail.com>coztoolkit.com
> 
> On Thu, Oct 5, 2023, at 8:15 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>> The issue isn't what has access to environmental variables, but rather what 
>> creates them. 
>> 
>> Further, they are useful in other contexts. An otherwise legacy program that 
>> uses a Unix command may need to pass the odd environment variable to control 
>> options for which there are no switches.
>> 
>> 
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
>> Jon Perryman 
>> Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2023 9:06 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Assembler access to USS functions
>> 
>> On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 20:54:56 +, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>> 
>>> Even if you have an OMVS segment, you don't get dubbed ntil you use a Unix 
>>> service.
>> 
>> Environment variables are not unique to UNIX and do not require dubbing. It 
>> is a feature of the C/C++ language that is in the STDLIB (standard library) 
>> and can be used in any environment.
>> 
>> Environment variables are only useful in languages that do not support 
>> global variables or inter-language global variables is not supported. I 
>> suspect that C and Cobol global variables are shared because of LE. 
>> Languages like shells, Python, Java and others which are runtime languages 
>> don't have access to C and Cobol global variables which makes environment 
>> variables a simple inter-language-communications feature.
>> 
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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Kirk Wolf]

This is a thread that won't die.  

In z/OS, environment variables are in Language Environment, in the CEEEDB 
("Enclave Data Block").   If your assembler code is running in LE, you can 
access/set them.   An empty table is created when the enclave is initialized, 
which can be BEFORE dubbing which happens at the first kernel call.Look in 
the LE books if you don't believe me.

Kirk Wolf
Dovetailed Technologies
http:// <http://dovetail.com>coztoolkit.com

On Thu, Oct 5, 2023, at 8:15 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> The issue isn't what has access to environmental variables, but rather what 
> creates them. 
> 
> Further, they are useful in other contexts. An otherwise legacy program that 
> uses a Unix command may need to pass the odd environment variable to control 
> options for which there are no switches.
> 
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
> Jon Perryman 
> Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2023 9:06 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Assembler access to USS functions
> 
> On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 20:54:56 +, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
> 
> >Even if you have an OMVS segment, you don't get dubbed ntil you use a Unix 
> >service.
> 
> Environment variables are not unique to UNIX and do not require dubbing. It 
> is a feature of the C/C++ language that is in the STDLIB (standard library) 
> and can be used in any environment.
> 
> Environment variables are only useful in languages that do not support global 
> variables or inter-language global variables is not supported. I suspect that 
> C and Cobol global variables are shared because of LE. Languages like shells, 
> Python, Java and others which are runtime languages don't have access to C 
> and Cobol global variables which makes environment variables a simple 
> inter-language-communications feature.
> 
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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Jon Perryman]

On Fri, 6 Oct 2023 01:15:51 +, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

>The issue isn't what has access to environmental variables, but rather what 
>creates them. 

The creator is C on the first call of PUTENV. It can be any program which is 
not necessarily a shell.  Of all the large list of shells (e.g. ksh, bash, sh 
and many more) makes you think each shell has it's own implementation of PUTENV.

Some shells are open source. The ones I've looked at use putenv and setenv from 
STDLIB. However for accessing it, they ignore getenv because it is so 
lightweight. Instead, use envp external variable directly and access each array 
entry.

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Jon Perryman]

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 20:54:56 +, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

>Even if you have an OMVS segment,
> you don't get dubbed ntil you use a Unix service.

What is your point about the OMVS segment? It simply authorizes the system to 
dub an address space. More important, unless IBM implemented locking with UNIX 
services, you should be able to use environment variables without an OMVS 
segment.

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Jon Perryman]

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 17:31:32 +, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

>And what if a non-Unix application uses a serrvice that causes dubbing?

Environment variables are part of the C language. Regardless of dubbing, 
environment variables can be added by any programs using that feature.

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Jon Perryman]

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 17:20:37 +, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

>I'm saying that BPXBATCH is a shell and is not part of, e.g., EXEC.

BPXBATCH is not a shell. Most notably a shell language is missing.  

> I'm also saying that the mere act of getting dubbed does not cause BPXBATCH 
> to be involved.

Dubbing is the act of making UNIX features available to an address space. If 
you use TCP in your TSO address space, it will get dubbed because TCP uses UNIX 
features. BPXBATCH has nothing to do with TSO. It's simply an address space 
that will obviously get dubbed.

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Jon Perryman]

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 15:04:51 +, David L. Craig  wrote:

>Nobody has pointed out environment variables are a component
>of the POSIX definition; thus, for the MVS universe it was
>only intended to be what was needed for POSIX certification
>and is so only available within USS. 

Actually environment variables are a feature of C implemented in STDLIB. It is 
available to all environments that support locking which probably means GRS.

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Jon Perryman]

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 11:07:03 +, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

>Where do you think process initialization gets the variable names and values?

Environment variables is empty until the first environment variable is added. 
Typically a shell is the first to add environment variables but it could just 
as easily be any language that calls the C environment variable APIs (e.g. 
Python and JAVA).   

There is an open source version of the STDLIB (Standard library) called GLIBC 
located at 
https://sourceware.org/git/?p=glibc.git;a=tree;f=stdlib;h=4c362998447b7664b4268fa732e90389bc1b8410;hb=HEAD
 which implements GETENV, PUTENV and other related functions.

IBM most likely did a similar implementation in IBM C but without seeing the 
source, I can't be 100% sure.  

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Seymour J Metz]

The issue isn't what has access to environmental variables, but rather what 
creates them. 

Further, they are useful in other contexts. An otherwise legacy program that 
uses a Unix command may need to pass the odd environment variable to control 
options for which there are no switches.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Jon 
Perryman 
Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2023 9:06 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler access to USS functions

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 20:54:56 +, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

>Even if you have an OMVS segment, you don't get dubbed ntil you use a Unix 
>service.

Environment variables are not unique to UNIX and do not require dubbing. It is 
a feature of the C/C++ language that is in the STDLIB (standard library) and 
can be used in any environment.

Environment variables are only useful in languages that do not support global 
variables or inter-language global variables is not supported. I suspect that C 
and Cobol global variables are shared because of LE. Languages like shells, 
Python, Java and others which are runtime languages don't have access to C and 
Cobol global variables which makes environment variables a simple 
inter-language-communications feature.

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Jon Perryman]

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 20:54:56 +, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

>Even if you have an OMVS segment, you don't get dubbed ntil you use a Unix 
>service.

Environment variables are not unique to UNIX and do not require dubbing. It is 
a feature of the C/C++ language that is in the STDLIB (standard library) and 
can be used in any environment. 

Environment variables are only useful in languages that do not support global 
variables or inter-language global variables is not supported. I suspect that C 
and Cobol global variables are shared because of LE. Languages like shells, 
Python, Java and others which are runtime languages don't have access to C and 
Cobol global variables which makes environment variables a simple 
inter-language-communications feature.

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Seymour J Metz]

Even if you have an OMVS segment, you don't get dubbed ntil you use a Unix 
service.



From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin <042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2023 3:10 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler access to USS functions

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 17:31:32 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>And what if a non-Unix application uses a serrvice that causes dubbing?
>
I suppose you can call BPXBATCH a shell, but Humpty Dumpty.

Otherwise, you raise several related questions.  I looked at one of my 
favorites:
<https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/3.1.0?topic=functions-bpxwunix>
env
An optional argument, env is the name of a compound variable (stem) that 
contains environment variables for the command. env.0 must contain the number 
of environment variables to be passed to the command. env.1, env.2, ... contain 
the variables in the form variable_name=variable_value. If env is not 
specified, the current environment is passed to the shell.

I'll submit an RCF asking what "current environment" means in ah undubbed
address space such as IRXJCL.

Perhaps by a user with no OMVS segment; no DEFUSER; etc.


From: Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2023 9:05 AMs

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 11:07:03 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>Where do you think process initialization gets the variable names and values?
>
I believe:
o If the process is initialized by init (often PID 0), init creates the environ 
array.

o If the process is initialized by fork() the environ array is copied from the 
parent.

o If one of the exec family of functions replaces the current process image,
  the environ array is copied from the envp[] argument.

None of these require a shell.

--
gil

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 17:31:32 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>And what if a non-Unix application uses a serrvice that causes dubbing?
>
I suppose you can call BPXBATCH a shell, but Humpty Dumpty.

Otherwise, you raise several related questions.  I looked at one of my 
favorites:

env
An optional argument, env is the name of a compound variable (stem) that 
contains environment variables for the command. env.0 must contain the number 
of environment variables to be passed to the command. env.1, env.2, ... contain 
the variables in the form variable_name=variable_value. If env is not 
specified, the current environment is passed to the shell.

I'll submit an RCF asking what "current environment" means in ah undubbed
address space such as IRXJCL.

Perhaps by a user with no OMVS segment; no DEFUSER; etc.


From: Paul Gilmartin 
Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2023 9:05 AMs

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 11:07:03 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>Where do you think process initialization gets the variable names and values?
>
I believe:
o If the process is initialized by init (often PID 0), init creates the environ 
array.

o If the process is initialized by fork() the environ array is copied from the 
parent.

o If one of the exec family of functions replaces the current process image,
  the environ array is copied from the envp[] argument.

None of these require a shell.

-- 
gil

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Seymour J Metz]

And what if a non-Unix application uses a serrvice that causes dubbing?


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin <042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2023 9:05 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler access to USS functions

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 11:07:03 +, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

>Where do you think process initialization gets the variable names and values?
>
I believe:
o If the process is initialized by init (often PID 0), init creates the environ 
array.

o If the process is initialized by fork() the environ array is copied from the 
parent.

o If one of the exec family of functions replaces the current process image,
  the environ array is copied from the envp[] argument.

None of these require a shell.

From:  Jon Perryman
Sent: Wednesday, October 4, 2023 11:09 PM
On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 02:37:57 +, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

>The shell creates the environment variables.

No. The environment variable array is created by process initialization. The 
shell and programs can modify the array. I believe sub-shells in the same 
process use the same array.

--
gil

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Seymour J Metz]

I'm saying that BPXBATCH is a shell and is not part of, e.g., EXEC. I'm also 
saying that the mere act of getting dubbed does not cause BPXBATCH to be 
involved.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Jon 
Perryman 
Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2023 11:37 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler access to USS functions

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 11:07:03 +, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

>Where do you think process initialization gets the variable names and values?

Process initialization initializes environment variables from /etc/environment. 
There is no requirement any shell environment (e.g. bash, csh or ...). Are you 
saying that PGM=BPXBATCH,PARM=’PGM program-name’ invokes a shell to create the 
environment variables? Most notably $PATH. Granted that shells simplify adding 
environment variables but programs are able to add environment variables 
without using export, setenv or ???.

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Jon Perryman]

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 11:07:03 +, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

>Where do you think process initialization gets the variable names and values?

Process initialization initializes environment variables from /etc/environment. 
There is no requirement any shell environment (e.g. bash, csh or ...). Are you 
saying that PGM=BPXBATCH,PARM=’PGM program-name’ invokes a shell to create the 
environment variables? Most notably $PATH. Granted that shells simplify adding 
environment variables but programs are able to add environment variables 
without using export, setenv or ???.

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[David L. Craig]

On 23Oct05:0616-0400, David Cole wrote:

> To all of you who responded to my query, I thank you.
> 
> Unfortunately (well, fortunately actually) I'm on the verge of leaving for
> vacation for the month (Viking cruise, Istanbul to Venice), so I won't get a
> chance to go over everything until November.
> 
> But all y'all have given me a lot to look at.
> 
> Thank you!
> Dave

Nobody has pointed out environment variables are a component
of the POSIX definition; thus, for the MVS universe it was
only intended to be what was needed for POSIX certification
and is so only available within USS.  Until Dave introduced
this topic, noone apparently had ever worried about this.

Second, any POSIX programmer will tell you environment
variables are process-specific.  When a shell spawns a
subshell process, it creates the new process' environment
variables by cloning its own and then modifying the clone
as needed.  The subshell has no access to the parent's
environment variables by design, nor does the parent have
access to the subshell's environment variables after it
has been started.
-- 

May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly!

Dave_Craig__
"So the universe is not quite as you thought it was.
 You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then.
 Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe."
__--from_Nightfall_by_Asimov/Silverberg_

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Farley, Peter]

Hi Dave,

Since you are considering an XDCUSS(A) suite, I presume they will of necessity 
be LE POSIX(ON) programs, so the LE function ceebenv() function documented in 
the LE Vendor Interfaces manual should be available to assembler code to 
interrogate the environment variables.

I also remember seeing comments (possibly in the Vendor Interfaces manual) that 
the environment array may have its address in the CAA somewhere, or reachable 
from the CAA at any rate, and if your code doesn’t always have the CAA address 
at hand there is also an assembler interface to get the CAA address which is  
documented in either the Vendor Interfaces manual or in the normal LE reference 
manual.

HTH

Peter

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
David Cole
Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2023 6:43 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler access to USS functions


Hi Jon, Hi Peter,



I must say, your insights have been quite helpful. Thank you!



Jon, You raise a good point. I neglected to say why I wanted to get

at the environment variables. Ok, here's why...







Classic z/XDC uses keyword ddnames as a very easy way to pass a fair

number of processing settings  into z/XDC. It's easy for the user to

use, and it's super easy for z/XDC to find.



We are considering writing a XDCUSS[A] analog to XDCCALL[A], and we'd

like to continue using the keyword ddname approach for passing

settings into z/XDC.

* However, my developer says that's not feasible, so I'm looking

for alternative approaches.

* To my naive mind, it seems to me that environmental variables

could be such an alternative.

* However, my developer says that environmental variables, while

available to C programs, are unavailable to assembler.

* I find that astonishing.

My developer has had little prior experience with USS; however, he is

an extraordinarily quick study, and has assimilated a lot of

knowledge in a very short time. Nevertheless, I thought I'd appeal to

the broader community in the hopes of learning what more experienced

minds have to say.





So our initial goal is to use environment variables for z/XDC's

internal control purposes.

But once that is accomplished, the broader purpose of providing

displays to the user will probably be undertaken.



Dave







At 10/5/2023 02:22 AM, Jon Perryman wrote:

>On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 05:46:48 +, Farley, Peter

> wrote:

>

> >Why does any programmer need to care where the environment

> variables are stored?

>

>Normally, I would agree but XDC is a very special case with very

>broad requirements. As a full z/OS system debugger, Dave Cole has

>many requirements that are atypical. E.g. does he want the ability

>to display environment variables from all processes instead of just

>the process being debugged? He also has restrictions such as

>debugging SRB, SVC, PC routines and more. More than likely, he

>doesn't want to use SRB's & IRB's to gather the data when access

>registers are simpler.

>

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 05:46:48 +, Farley, Peter  wrote:
>
>I am sorry to say that your comments so far appear merely pedantic to me, and 
>in particular not very useful to the OP.  If there is a substantive reason for 
>the OP to care about these kinds of details, please elaborate.
>
It probably does not matter to the OP.  It mattered to ma at one time
when I modified a multi-platform FOSS C program, relying on the
POSIX specification of putenv().  It worked as I intended on POSIX
conforming implementations, but failed on pre-1.2 z/OS.

-- 
gil

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 11:07:03 +, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

>Where do you think process initialization gets the variable names and values?
>
I believe:
o If the process is initialized by init (often PID 0), init creates the environ 
array.

o If the process is initialized by fork() the environ array is copied from the 
parent.

o If one of the exec family of functions replaces the current process image,
  the environ array is copied from the envp[] argument.

None of these require a shell.

From:  Jon Perryman
Sent: Wednesday, October 4, 2023 11:09 PM
On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 02:37:57 +, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

>The shell creates the environment variables.

No. The environment variable array is created by process initialization. The 
shell and programs can modify the array. I believe sub-shells in the same 
process use the same array.

-- 
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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Mike Schwab]

How about a PGM=CGETENV with a 4K/16K/64K? memory area for the C
program to copy the ENV area into?

On Thu, Oct 5, 2023 at 5:43 AM David Cole  wrote:
>
> Hi Jon, Hi Peter,
>
> I must say, your insights have been quite helpful. Thank you!
>
> Jon, You raise a good point. I neglected to say why I wanted to get
> at the environment variables. Ok, here's why...
>
>
>
> Classic z/XDC uses keyword ddnames as a very easy way to pass a fair
> number of processing settings  into z/XDC. It's easy for the user to
> use, and it's super easy for z/XDC to find.
>
> We are considering writing a XDCUSS[A] analog to XDCCALL[A], and we'd
> like to continue using the keyword ddname approach for passing
> settings into z/XDC.
> * However, my developer says that's not feasible, so I'm looking
> for alternative approaches.
> * To my naive mind, it seems to me that environmental variables
> could be such an alternative.
> * However, my developer says that environmental variables, while
> available to C programs, are unavailable to assembler.
> * I find that astonishing.
> My developer has had little prior experience with USS; however, he is
> an extraordinarily quick study, and has assimilated a lot of
> knowledge in a very short time. Nevertheless, I thought I'd appeal to
> the broader community in the hopes of learning what more experienced
> minds have to say.
>
>
> So our initial goal is to use environment variables for z/XDC's
> internal control purposes.
> But once that is accomplished, the broader purpose of providing
> displays to the user will probably be undertaken.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> At 10/5/2023 02:22 AM, Jon Perryman wrote:
> >On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 05:46:48 +, Farley, Peter
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Why does any programmer need to care where the environment
> > variables are stored?
> >
> >Normally, I would agree but XDC is a very special case with very
> >broad requirements. As a full z/OS system debugger, Dave Cole has
> >many requirements that are atypical. E.g. does he want the ability
> >to display environment variables from all processes instead of just
> >the process being debugged? He also has restrictions such as
> >debugging SRB, SVC, PC routines and more. More than likely, he
> >doesn't want to use SRB's & IRB's to gather the data when access
> >registers are simpler.
> >
> >--
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>
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-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Seymour J Metz]

Where do you think process initialization gets the variable names and values?


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Jon 
Perryman 
Sent: Wednesday, October 4, 2023 11:09 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler access to USS functions

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 02:37:57 +, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

>The shell creates the environment variables.

No. The environment variable array is created by process initialization. The 
shell and programs can modify the array. I believe sub-shells in the same 
process use the same array.

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[David Cole]

Hi Jon, Hi Peter,

I must say, your insights have been quite helpful. Thank you!

Jon, You raise a good point. I neglected to say why I wanted to get 
at the environment variables. Ok, here's why...




Classic z/XDC uses keyword ddnames as a very easy way to pass a fair 
number of processing settings  into z/XDC. It's easy for the user to 
use, and it's super easy for z/XDC to find.


We are considering writing a XDCUSS[A] analog to XDCCALL[A], and we'd 
like to continue using the keyword ddname approach for passing 
settings into z/XDC.
   * However, my developer says that's not feasible, so I'm looking 
for alternative approaches.
   * To my naive mind, it seems to me that environmental variables 
could be such an alternative.
   * However, my developer says that environmental variables, while 
available to C programs, are unavailable to assembler.

   * I find that astonishing.
My developer has had little prior experience with USS; however, he is 
an extraordinarily quick study, and has assimilated a lot of 
knowledge in a very short time. Nevertheless, I thought I'd appeal to 
the broader community in the hopes of learning what more experienced 
minds have to say.



So our initial goal is to use environment variables for z/XDC's 
internal control purposes.
But once that is accomplished, the broader purpose of providing 
displays to the user will probably be undertaken.


Dave



At 10/5/2023 02:22 AM, Jon Perryman wrote:
On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 05:46:48 +, Farley, Peter 
 wrote:


>Why does any programmer need to care where the environment 
variables are stored?


Normally, I would agree but XDC is a very special case with very 
broad requirements. As a full z/OS system debugger, Dave Cole has 
many requirements that are atypical. E.g. does he want the ability 
to display environment variables from all processes instead of just 
the process being debugged? He also has restrictions such as 
debugging SRB, SVC, PC routines and more. More than likely, he 
doesn't want to use SRB's & IRB's to gather the data when access 
registers are simpler.


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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[David Cole]

To all of you who responded to my query, I thank you.

Unfortunately (well, fortunately actually) I'm on the verge of 
leaving for vacation for the month (Viking cruise, Istanbul to 
Venice), so I won't get a chance to go over everything until November.


But all y'all have given me a lot to look at.

Thank you!
Dave

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Jon Perryman]

Rather than get into a discussion that probably doesn't interest anyone here, 
we should make this about the problem Dave Cole is interested in solving. This 
is more about making sure he has considered things like sub-shells and other 
things he might have overlooked. I'm sure he'll ask if something piques his 
interest and he wants more clarification. 

On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 22:35:12 -0500, Paul Gilmartin  wrote:
>On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 22:09:42 -0500, Jon Perryman wrote:
>> I believe sub-shells in the same process use the same array.
>I believe otherwise.  Consider:
>foo=outer export foo; ( foo=inner export foo ); echo $foo
>("sub-shells in the same process" is an oxymoron.)

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Jon Perryman]

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 05:46:48 +, Farley, Peter  
wrote:

>Why does any programmer need to care where the environment variables are 
>stored? 

Normally, I would agree but XDC is a very special case with very broad 
requirements. As a full z/OS system debugger, Dave Cole has many requirements 
that are atypical. E.g. does he want the ability to display environment 
variables from all processes instead of just the process being debugged? He 
also has restrictions such as debugging SRB, SVC, PC routines and more. More 
than likely, he doesn't want to use SRB's & IRB's to gather the data when 
access registers are simpler.

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Farley, Peter]

Why does any programmer need to care where the environment variables are 
stored?  As long as they are stored such that they “. . .  become part of the 
environment” and that “. . . altering the string shall change the environment”, 
why would one care where they are in storage? It just makes no sense to me to 
concern oneself where they are stored.

If anyone wants the non-standard storage behavior from pre-z/OS V1R2, they can 
choose to use the C putenv() function to which you pointed that says it 
recognizes and responds to that environment variable instead of using the 
assembler-callable LE ceebenv() function to which I pointed.

The link you provided to the C function putenv() is NOT the same as the LE 
ceebenv() function to which I pointed.  In fact, I would guess that the C 
putenv() function probably USES the function to which I pointed to perform its 
task.

I am sorry to say that your comments so far appear merely pedantic to me, and 
in particular not very useful to the OP.  If there is a substantive reason for 
the OP to care about these kinds of details, please elaborate.

Peter

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Wednesday, October 4, 2023 2:27 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler access to USS functions


On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 16:06:38 +, Farley, Peter wrote:



>Perform setenv(). Adds, changes, or deletes an environment variable in the 
>environment list.

>

>OK, it says “set” env not “put” env.  Semantics appear the same.

>

No.  Single Unix says:

<https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/functions/putenv.html*tag_16_466_03>

..., the string pointed to by string shall become part of the environment,

so altering the string shall change the environment.



And OMvS says (less clearly, IMO):

<https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.2.0?topic=functions-putenv-change-add-environment-variable>

Note: Starting with, z/OS® V1R2, the storage used to define the environment

variable pointed to by envvar is added to the array of environment 
variables.



This is not true for setenv(), which makes a copy of the value.



>That environment variable _EDC_PUTENV_COPY seems intended to permit an 
>obsolete storage location (pre-z/OS V1R2 it says) for environment variables.  
>Why would you want that?

>

IBM provided the option for users who had come to depend on the non-standard

behavior, which they considered more intuitive.



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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 22:09:42 -0500, Jon Perryman wrote:

>On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 02:37:57 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>
>>The shell creates the environment variables.
>
>No. The environment variable array is created by process initialization.
>
I agree.  This is normally done by a function of the exec() family.

> The shell and programs can modify the array.
> 
Or pass a new array as one of the arguments of exec().

> I believe sub-shells in the same process use the same array.
>
I believe otherwise.  Consider:
foo=outer export foo; ( foo=inner export foo ); echo $foo

("sub-shells in the same process" is an oxymoron.)

-- 
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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Jon Perryman]

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 02:37:57 +, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

>The shell creates the environment variables.

No. The environment variable array is created by process initialization. The 
shell and programs can modify the array. I believe sub-shells in the same 
process use the same array.

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Seymour J Metz]

The shell creates the environment variables.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Jon 
Perryman 
Sent: Wednesday, October 4, 2023 10:34 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler access to USS functions

On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 13:27:28 -0500, Paul Gilmartin  wrote:
>>On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 16:06:38 +, Farley, Peter wrote:
>>Perform setenv(). Adds, changes, or deletes an environment variable in the 
>>environment list.
>No.  Single Unix says:
><https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/functions/putenv.html#tag_16_466_03>
>..., the string pointed to by string shall become part of the environment,
>so altering the string shall change the environment.

Maybe we can be more helpful by ignoring the obvious and discussing things that 
Dave Cole might get to the answers he is looking for.

Remember that Dave is asking about XDC extracting environment variables using 
assembler. My interpretation:
1. He wants access to environment variables from various processes and address 
spaces at the same time (not specific to the breakpoint).
2. He needs to deal with IBM C, SAS/C, and Metal C. It's been many years but I 
think CICS supports environment variables.
3. He can't depend upon loading DLL support. Does SRB, SVC, PC routines and ??? 
have direct knowledge of environment variables.

I think that once Dave finds the first environment variable, it will be an 
array because it needs to be compatible with user programs that may search it. 
I'm not sure how z/OS UNIX gets to that variable. Maybe a look at os.environ 
would lead to the answer.

Dubbing can occur in all address spaces. I don't know if dubbing creates 
environment variables. Maybe the USS news group has a mapping of CB's created 
by dubbing. Maybe they know the CB that points to environment variables.

Shell design has shell variables which include environment variables. This 
might need to be considered. Not sure if they are included in the standard 
calls.

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Jon Perryman]

On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 13:27:28 -0500, Paul Gilmartin  wrote:
>>On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 16:06:38 +, Farley, Peter wrote:
>>Perform setenv(). Adds, changes, or deletes an environment variable in the 
>>environment list.
>No.  Single Unix says:
>
>..., the string pointed to by string shall become part of the environment,
>so altering the string shall change the environment.

Maybe we can be more helpful by ignoring the obvious and discussing things that 
Dave Cole might get to the answers he is looking for.

Remember that Dave is asking about XDC extracting environment variables using 
assembler. My interpretation:
1. He wants access to environment variables from various processes and address 
spaces at the same time (not specific to the breakpoint).
2. He needs to deal with IBM C, SAS/C, and Metal C. It's been many years but I 
think CICS supports environment variables.
3. He can't depend upon loading DLL support. Does SRB, SVC, PC routines and ??? 
have direct knowledge of environment variables.

I think that once Dave finds the first environment variable, it will be an 
array because it needs to be compatible with user programs that may search it. 
I'm not sure how z/OS UNIX gets to that variable. Maybe a look at os.environ 
would lead to the answer.

Dubbing can occur in all address spaces. I don't know if dubbing creates 
environment variables. Maybe the USS news group has a mapping of CB's created 
by dubbing. Maybe they know the CB that points to environment variables.

Shell design has shell variables which include environment variables. This 
might need to be considered. Not sure if they are included in the standard 
calls.

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 16:06:38 +, Farley, Peter wrote:

>Perform setenv(). Adds, changes, or deletes an environment variable in the 
>environment list.
>
>OK, it says “set” env not “put” env.  Semantics appear the same.
>
No.  Single Unix says:

..., the string pointed to by string shall become part of the environment,
so altering the string shall change the environment.

And OMvS says (less clearly, IMO):

Note: Starting with, z/OS® V1R2, the storage used to define the environment
variable pointed to by envvar is added to the array of environment 
variables. 

This is not true for setenv(), which makes a copy of the value.

>That environment variable _EDC_PUTENV_COPY seems intended to permit an 
>obsolete storage location (pre-z/OS V1R2 it says) for environment variables.  
>Why would you want that?
>
IBM provided the option for users who had come to depend on the non-standard
behavior, which they considered more intuitive.

-- 
gil

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Farley, Peter]

What are you talking about? Function code 2 for ceebenv is defined as follows:

2
Perform setenv(). Adds, changes, or deletes an environment variable in the 
environment list.

OK, it says “set” env not “put” env.  Semantics appear the same.

That environment variable _EDC_PUTENV_COPY seems intended to permit an obsolete 
storage location (pre-z/OS V1R2 it says) for environment variables.  Why would 
you want that?

Peter

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2023 2:15 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler access to USS functions


On Tue, 3 Oct 2023 16:35:25 +, Farley, Peter  wrote:



>I found something one can use from assembler to access environment variables 
>in the LE Vendor Interfaces manual:

>

>https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/3.1.0?topic=clearenv-ceebenv

>

>Seems right on target with Dave’s original request.

>

Interestingly:

o There's no function_code corresponding to putenv()

o Thus no mention of sensitivity to _EDC_PUTENV_COPY



<https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/3.1.0?topic=functions-putenv-change-add-environment-variable>



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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Kirk Wolf]

As I mentioned earlier on the list, I am reasonably sure that "environment 
variables" are a Language Environment thing, which is why they don't appear in 
the z/OS UNIX Assembler Services Guide.   However, if you look at some services 
in the Asm Svcs Guide, you will see that they accept a envar table.  I assume 
that this is so that the LE C/C++ library can pass environment variables to 
those kernel functions that use them - like for example "STEPLIB" for exec().

But an assembler language programmer would be free to write LE-conforming 
assembler code, and then the envar table could be there (in the CEEEDB I 
believe).

Kirk Wolf
Dovetailed Technologies
http:// coztoolkit.com

On Tue, Oct 3, 2023, at 11:22 AM, Farley, Peter wrote:
> Unfortunately none of those callable services provides access to the POSIX 
> environment variables table.  The only references I can find to access to 
> those values are in the getenv() / putenv() C function descriptions.
> 
> To Dave C.,
> 
> I guess you could put in a call to IBM C/C++ support to ask them how one is 
> supposed to access environment variables from assembler subroutines.  I am 
> assuming here that you will need to be running / compiling with POSIX “on” in 
> order for that to work at all.  Maybe if you are already running in a POSIX 
> “on” environment there will be a control block chain you can chase to find 
> the in-core table of values.
> 
> Peter
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> John
> Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2023 9:58 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Assembler access to USS functions
> 
> 
> Assembler callable services
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In response to David Cole's inquiry ...
> 
> --
> 
> 
> 
> This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the 
> addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If 
> the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized 
> representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any 
> dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have 
> received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail 
> and delete the message and any attachments from your system.
> 
> 
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> 

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Tue, 3 Oct 2023 16:35:25 +, Farley, Peter  wrote:

>I found something one can use from assembler to access environment variables 
>in the LE Vendor Interfaces manual:
>
>https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/3.1.0?topic=clearenv-ceebenv
>
>Seems right on target with Dave’s original request.
>
Interestingly:
o There's no function_code corresponding to putenv()
o Thus no mention of sensitivity to _EDC_PUTENV_COPY



-- 
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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Farley, Peter]

I found something one can use from assembler to access environment variables in 
the LE Vendor Interfaces manual:

https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/3.1.0?topic=clearenv-ceebenv

Seems right on target with Dave’s original request.

Peter

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Farley, Peter
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2023 12:22 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Assembler access to USS functions


Unfortunately none of those callable services provides access to the POSIX 
environment variables table.  The only references I can find to access to those 
values are in the getenv() / putenv() C function descriptions.



To Dave C.,



I guess you could put in a call to IBM C/C++ support to ask them how one is 
supposed to access environment variables from assembler subroutines.  I am 
assuming here that you will need to be running / compiling with POSIX “on” in 
order for that to work at all.  Maybe if you are already running in a POSIX 
“on” environment there will be a control block chain you can chase to find the 
in-core table of values.



Peter



From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of John

Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2023 9:58 AM

To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU

Subject: Assembler access to USS functions





Assembler callable services



<https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/3.1.0?topic=reference-callable-services-descriptions><https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/3.1.0?topic=reference-callable-services-descriptions%3e%0d%0dIn>

 
<https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/3.1.0?topic=reference-callable-services-descriptions%3e%0d%0dIn>

In<https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/3.1.0?topic=reference-callable-services-descriptions%3e%0d%0dIn>
 response to David Cole's inquiry ...



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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Tue, 3 Oct 2023 16:22:19 +, Farley, Peter  wrote:

>Unfortunately none of those callable services provides access to the POSIX 
>environment variables table.  The only references I can find to access to 
>those values are in the getenv() / putenv() C function descriptions.
>
>To Dave C.,
>
>I guess you could put in a call to IBM C/C++ support to ask them how one is 
>supposed to access environment variables from assembler subroutines.  I am 
>assuming here that you will need to be running / compiling with POSIX “on” in 
>order for that to work at all.  Maybe if you are already running in a POSIX 
>“on” environment there will be a control block chain you can chase to find the 
>in-core table of values.
>
Can that chain (array of pointers, actually) be anchored with
WXTRN  'environ'
???

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gil

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Re: Assembler access to USS functions

[Farley, Peter]

Unfortunately none of those callable services provides access to the POSIX 
environment variables table.  The only references I can find to access to those 
values are in the getenv() / putenv() C function descriptions.

To Dave C.,

I guess you could put in a call to IBM C/C++ support to ask them how one is 
supposed to access environment variables from assembler subroutines.  I am 
assuming here that you will need to be running / compiling with POSIX “on” in 
order for that to work at all.  Maybe if you are already running in a POSIX 
“on” environment there will be a control block chain you can chase to find the 
in-core table of values.

Peter

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of John
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2023 9:58 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Assembler access to USS functions


Assembler callable services

>







In response to David Cole's inquiry ...

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