Re: [mailop] Anyone from Gmail ?

[Rich Kulawiec]

On Tue, Mar 06, 2018 at 12:02:55PM -0500, Bill Cole wrote:
> If bulk senders routinely detect when a user opens messages, that user is not
> following basic email safety principles.

Correct.  It also means that the sender is abusive: even *attempting* to discern
when users open/read messages is clearly unethical and wholly unprofessional.

---rsk

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Re: [mailop] Anyone from Gmail ?

[Laura Atkins]

> On Mar 6, 2018, at 3:48 AM, Vaibhav  wrote:
> 
> Currently we are sending emails with same setup with avg. 5% OR ( might few 
> users are getting email in inbox ) where domain still carries low reputation 
> & IP's are in HIGH reputation. Its been 15 days where we don't see any 
> improvement here.
> 
> Can anyone help me over here in terms of what is going wrong here ?


If the IPs are high and the domain is low, then you need to look at mail from 
different IPs also pointing to / using / signing with / authenticating that 
domain.

laura 

-- 
Having an Email Crisis?  We can help! 800 823-9674 

Laura Atkins
Word to the Wise
la...@wordtothewise.com
(650) 437-0741  

Email Delivery Blog: https://wordtothewise.com/blog 







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Re: [mailop] Anyone from Gmail ?

[David Hofstee]

> Do you believe "open rate" metrics are that accurate?
That depends on the domain and the user-agent in question. Some load images
automatically when viewing the message.

>  If bulk senders routinely detect when a user opens messages, that user
is not following basic email safety principles
I am not sure how much tin-foil I can advise you to use. Tracking is
everywhere, in many forms. Not just in email newsletters. So I think this
discussion belongs somewhere else.

Yours,


David

On 6 March 2018 at 18:02, Bill Cole 
wrote:

> On 6 Mar 2018, at 9:09, David Hofstee wrote:
>
> Hi Vaibhav,
>>
>> So if you have 12% open rate.. It means that for  every (100/12 =) 8.3
>> emails you send, one is relevant. It is my expectation, maybe Brandon
>> knows
>> more, that your emails are not relevant enough. Is this really something
>> the subscribers asked for? Because they lack real engagement.
>>
>
> Do you believe "open rate" metrics are that accurate?
>
> As someone working mostly with non-broadcast B2B email, I have done a fair
> bit of user training and documentation focused on safe email practices. If
> bulk senders routinely detect when a user opens messages, that user is not
> following basic email safety principles.
>
>
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>



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Re: [mailop] Anyone from Gmail ?

[Grant Taylor via mailop]

On 03/06/2018 06:56 PM, Dave Lugo wrote:
I completely agree.  So, unsure how gmail should handle that.  Be more 
lenient on open rates?


I think Dave may be onto something about the absence of negative 
information.


Could the bank transition some or all of that traffic to SMS, where it 
might be less susceptible to spam blocking?


I would not want that type of information coming to me via SMS.  I (want 
to) trust email more than I trust SMS.  At least when sending servers 
connect directly to Gmail (in this case) and actually initiate a 
STARTTLS transaction.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die



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Re: [mailop] Anyone from Gmail ?

[Ted Cooper]

On 07/03/18 11:56, Dave Lugo wrote:
> I completely agree.  So, unsure how gmail should handle that.  Be more
> lenient on open rates?
> 
> Could the bank transition some or all of that traffic to SMS, where it
> might be less susceptible to spam blocking?


Most of the banks here in Australia now have an App for your phone which
gets push notifications of all messages. Email in that role is now
playing second fiddle.

Would Gmail take the time to monitor open rates for given senders? Given
it'll be an AI spam filter, it could be used as an input, but I'm just
guessing. Not something I have as a possible input, not even occurred to
me. I'm still struggling to figure out if it would be a reliable
indicator at all.




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Re: [mailop] Anyone from Gmail ?

[Luis E. Muñoz via mailop]

On 6 Mar 2018, at 17:54, Michael Wise via mailop wrote:

... which if the Subject line conveys all the info you need, is a GOOD 
thing.


True. However, there's little signal there for the ISP to know that you 
looked at the subject. The user won't even interact with the email and 
likely, will delete it without even glancing at the body.


-lem

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Re: [mailop] Anyone from Gmail ?

[Dave Lugo]

On Tue, 6 Mar 2018, Michael Wise via mailop wrote:


Do the recipients actually WANT the email?

Perhaps you?re sending too much of it.

Can the recipients control the volume, or at the very least opt out?



Well.. it's a little more complicated (and I suppose simple at the same
time than that.

For instance... I get wanted mail from my bank.  It's not marketing, and
it's largely transactional.  But to put it into context... these are the
subject lines.  Guess how many I open?  (answer - none at all, since the
subject line displayed in the client is enough).  I want all this mail,
but I don't need to see more than the subject to know what it's about,
and what that means for my bank account.

  $PAYEE added to $MYBANK Billpay
  Reminder to pay $PAYEE
  $PAYEE detals changed in $MYBANK Billpay
  $MYBANK - Your Online Banking Statement Is Available


For almost _all_ the double-opt in mail my bank sends me, there's no 
compelling reason to actually read the body of the message.



--

Dave Lugo   dl...@etherboy.comLC Unit #260   TINLC
Have you hugged your firewall today?   No spam, thanks.

Are you the police?  . . . .  No ma'am, we're sysadmins.

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Re: [mailop] Anyone from Gmail ?

[Hal Murray]

> In my experience with the banking industry, they think of their email as
> something that their customers always want to read for sure.

I remember a story from many years ago.  A bank had spammed somebody after 
they had opted out.  The story from the bank was that they had  opted out of 
marketing material but this was something else.  I forget the name.  It was 
something like customer information.

Ever since then, I've put banks in the clueless bin.  I'm sure that doesn't 
apply to some banks, but it would be interesting to see a survey of banks 
clue level compared to other industries and/or see if it has changed over 
time.



-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




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Re: [mailop] Anyone from Gmail ?

[Michael Wise via mailop]

Do the recipients actually WANT the email?
Perhaps you’re sending too much of it.
Can the recipients control the volume, or at the very least opt out?

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ?

From: mailop <mailop-boun...@mailop.org> On Behalf Of Vaibhav
Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2018 3:49 AM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: [mailop] Anyone from Gmail ?

Hi,
Recently I started working with one of the top Bank where we have setup 
dedicated infrastructure to send out emails.
As per Gmail postmaster initially Delivery IP, sending domain used to carries 
high reputation with avg. 12% OR with no bounces & less unsubscribe. After few 
days Gmail suddenly started filtering emails as spam & reputation at Gmail 
Postmaster went down.
We look at the historical dataset where we don't see any data point which might 
causes reputation to go down. We are sending emails to double opt in dataset, 
with avg. 10 to 15% user engagement on sent with less bounces & unsubscribes. 
Gmail postmaster show 0% spam rate / feedback loop.
What could be the reason to filter emails as spam ? We tried to reach out Gmail 
postmaster team but could find any help.
Currently we are sending emails with same setup with avg. 5% OR ( might few 
users are getting email in inbox ) where domain still carries low reputation & 
IP's are in HIGH reputation. Its been 15 days where we don't see any 
improvement here.
Can anyone help me over here in terms of what is going wrong here ?
--Vaibhav


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Re: [mailop] Anyone from Gmail ?

[Anne P. Mitchell Esq.]

 
> 
> 
> In my experience with the banking industry, they think of their email as 
> something that their customers always want to read for sure. Unless you've 
> handled the "double opt-in" yourself, I would be skeptical about that. Look 
> for typoed email addresses as those are a telltale sign of hand-entered 
> registrations.
> 
> Given your description, I think that these subscribers aren't really that 
> interested in the bank's messages.
> 
> Never an easy speech to give to your customer.

It's just become a whole lot easier though - wave GDPR at them.

Anne

Anne P. Mitchell, 
Attorney at Law
Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
Legislative Consultant
CEO/President, Institute for Social Internet Public Policy
Legal Counsel: The CyberGreen Institute
Legal Counsel: The Earth Law Center
Member, California Bar Association
Member, Cal. Bar Cyberspace Law Committee
Member, Colorado Cyber Committee
Member, Board of Directors, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
Ret. Professor of Law, Lincoln Law School of San Jose
Ret. Chair, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop


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Re: [mailop] Anyone from Gmail ?

[Bill Cole]

On 6 Mar 2018, at 9:09, David Hofstee wrote:


Hi Vaibhav,

So if you have 12% open rate.. It means that for  every (100/12 =) 8.3
emails you send, one is relevant. It is my expectation, maybe Brandon 
knows
more, that your emails are not relevant enough. Is this really 
something

the subscribers asked for? Because they lack real engagement.


Do you believe "open rate" metrics are that accurate?

As someone working mostly with non-broadcast B2B email, I have done a 
fair bit of user training and documentation focused on safe email 
practices. If bulk senders routinely detect when a user opens messages, 
that user is not following basic email safety principles.


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Re: [mailop] Anyone from Gmail ?

[Luis E. Muñoz via mailop]

On 6 Mar 2018, at 3:48, Vaibhav wrote:


Hi,

Recently I started working with one of the top Bank where we have 
setup

dedicated infrastructure to send out emails.

As per Gmail postmaster initially Delivery IP, sending domain used to
carries high reputation with avg. 12% OR with no bounces & less
unsubscribe. After few days Gmail suddenly started filtering emails as 
spam

& reputation at Gmail Postmaster went down.

We look at the historical dataset where we don't see any data point 
which
might causes reputation to go down. We are sending emails to double 
opt in
dataset, with avg. 10 to 15% user engagement on sent with less bounces 
&

unsubscribes. Gmail postmaster show 0% spam rate / feedback loop.


In my experience with the banking industry, they think of their email as 
something that their customers always want to read for sure. Unless 
you've handled the "double opt-in" yourself, I would be skeptical about 
that. Look for typoed email addresses as those are a telltale sign of 
hand-entered registrations.


Given your description, I think that these subscribers aren't really 
that interested in the bank's messages.


Never an easy speech to give to your customer.

Best regards

-lem

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Re: [mailop] Anyone from Gmail ?

[David Hofstee]

Hi Vaibhav,

So if you have 12% open rate.. It means that for  every (100/12 =) 8.3
emails you send, one is relevant. It is my expectation, maybe Brandon knows
more, that your emails are not relevant enough. Is this really something
the subscribers asked for? Because they lack real engagement.

We all have "important" customers. That doesn't make it magically work.
They too should send out emails that people want to read. I think your 12%
openrate is pretty low (on the low end of what to accept). Good luck trying
to explain this to your customer.

Yours,


David

P.S. Some metrics:
https://www.marketingcharts.com/digital/email-online-and-mobile-82552/attachment/returnpath-email-deliverability-metric-benchmarks-by-industry-in-2017-mar2018
(and think of "what it can be" rather than "we are just a tad lower").

On 6 March 2018 at 12:48, Vaibhav  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Recently I started working with one of the top Bank where we have setup
> dedicated infrastructure to send out emails.
>
> As per Gmail postmaster initially Delivery IP, sending domain used to
> carries high reputation with avg. 12% OR with no bounces & less
> unsubscribe. After few days Gmail suddenly started filtering emails as spam
> & reputation at Gmail Postmaster went down.
>
> We look at the historical dataset where we don't see any data point which
> might causes reputation to go down. We are sending emails to double opt in
> dataset, with avg. 10 to 15% user engagement on sent with less bounces &
> unsubscribes. Gmail postmaster show 0% spam rate / feedback loop.
>
> What could be the reason to filter emails as spam ? We tried to reach out
> Gmail postmaster team but could find any help.
>
> Currently we are sending emails with same setup with avg. 5% OR ( might
> few users are getting email in inbox ) where domain still carries low
> reputation & IP's are in HIGH reputation. Its been 15 days where we don't
> see any improvement here.
>
> Can anyone help me over here in terms of what is going wrong here ?
>
> --Vaibhav
>
>
>
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>


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[mailop] Anyone from Gmail ?

[Vaibhav]

Hi,

Recently I started working with one of the top Bank where we have setup
dedicated infrastructure to send out emails.

As per Gmail postmaster initially Delivery IP, sending domain used to
carries high reputation with avg. 12% OR with no bounces & less
unsubscribe. After few days Gmail suddenly started filtering emails as spam
& reputation at Gmail Postmaster went down.

We look at the historical dataset where we don't see any data point which
might causes reputation to go down. We are sending emails to double opt in
dataset, with avg. 10 to 15% user engagement on sent with less bounces &
unsubscribes. Gmail postmaster show 0% spam rate / feedback loop.

What could be the reason to filter emails as spam ? We tried to reach out
Gmail postmaster team but could find any help.

Currently we are sending emails with same setup with avg. 5% OR ( might few
users are getting email in inbox ) where domain still carries low
reputation & IP's are in HIGH reputation. Its been 15 days where we don't
see any improvement here.

Can anyone help me over here in terms of what is going wrong here ?

--Vaibhav
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