[Mpls] School discussion
Once again, when anyone disagrees with him, Michael A decides to call that person a racist, and a segregationist. He doesn't seem to feel any desire to engage in answering my question which was to ask how do we get teachers to WANT to take on the challenge of high-poverty schools? Name-calling meets his needs more. Nevertheless, I would still like to see some discussion of how teachers could be made to want to take on this challenge. And I'd like to see the school system do this by leveling UP, not leveling down. For what it's worth, our family uses a high-poverty school (Jefferson) that does have a cadre of teachers with a lot of team spirit, who seem to work together admirably well. Saying this may lead to another outburst of name-calling from Michael A., but: it is this cohesive team of experienced teachers that I would fight to resist having be smashed and scattered to the winds. I see that Jefferson was omitted from Michael's statistics: total hispaf-am white 575 296 180 70 51% 31% 12% Average teacher years of experience, 11.9 Although in the Uptown area, Jefferson has more than the average of students eligible for free/reduced lunch, which makes it a high-poverty school. This seems to suggest to me that it IS possible to have a school where teachers will want to stay, even when it's a high-poverty school. -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Council committee turns down Lagoon Project
EK == Ed Kohler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: EK I'm still trying to understand the resistance to the Lagoon EK Project. Here are four reasons why I resist the project: 1. It seems to reflect a capricious flouting of the existing zoning ordinances and planning. I don't want to see every project considered in isolation; if the zoning rules are busted, let's fix them. If not, let's apply them. But let's not just ignore them this way. 2. Height/skyline. I don't have any huge objections to this height *in this location*. But I see the height restrictions being blown away on the shores of Lake Calhoun, and I sure as heck object to *that*. Given the choice, I'd rather hold the line everywhere, even where it doesn't matter so much, than cave in everywhere and let us turn Lake Calhoun into a cavern. The Edgewater development's successful variance shows that this is a real threat. I don't see the downside of changing this development as anywhere near the downside to losing height restrictions in a piecemeal way. 3. Transit. You wrote: EK Another concern is transit implications. The building be at EK the intersection of the 21, 12, 17, 6, 861, 114, 115, 23, and EK 53 bus services, and within walking distance of the 4. It's EK also Midtown Greenway. There can't be many more already EK transit friendly spots available in the Metro than this. Bus transit is fine and dandy. *IF* people use it. I'm not convinced they will. I think it's a lot more likely that this development is going to cause the area to be flooded with yet more cars, and I haven't read any argument that convinces me that people living here will, in fact, use buses and not own cars. 4. Other infrastructure EK As far as I can tell, the neighborhood can sustain the growth, I live in this area, and I experience incredibly frequent power outages in the summer. At times we have *daily* micro-blackouts (lose power for not more than 1 minute). What's it going to do to put a big building like this in the area. EK I'm having a hard time understanding the argument against this EK project. Notice that ## 1 2 above are slippery slope arguments, and pertain to the process rather than simply this project on its own merits. BTW, David Greene has been suggesting that tons of people are going to be moving in in the near future. Is this really true? My impression is that, with exceptions in favored neighborhoods, the central cities are going to continue to go *DOWN* in population, while the further out suburbs are going to continue to grow. I'm not saying that's a great thing, mind you, but I don't see that getting more people into the cities is going to be a big issue. Just keeping the city population from slumping too badly is the big challenge, as withness the public schools cratering... And building up in-city density isn't going to help hugely as more jobs go out of the city to big office boxes, for which we can't provide public transit (because they're too scattered). Another Uptown aside: I've wondered was whether we could dig Paris-style underpasses (through traffic goes under, local traffic stays up) into Uptown, so that people just driving to points East or West could be removed from our traffic flow. Most importantly from my point of view, such structures would remove we pedestrians from threat that comes with drivers who are exploding with stress because they aren't moving fast enough through the neighborhood. -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Council committee turns down Lagoon Project
Terrell == Terrell Brown Terrell writes: Terrell - Original Message - Terrell From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Terrell To: Ed Kohler [EMAIL PROTECTED] BTW, David Greene has been suggesting that tons of people are going to be moving in in the near future. Is this really true? My impression is that, with exceptions in favored neighborhoods, the central cities are going to continue to go *DOWN* in population, while the further out suburbs are going to continue to grow. Terrell Rovian slip? [...snip...] Terrell Does this typify the accuracy of the information that Terrell project opponents presented to the Council committee? Could you rephrase that in some way that is not intended to impute to me evil, demagogic tendencies? For goodness' sake, what the HELL is wrong with this list that the level of civility is so INSANELY LOW? Why do no posters even CONSIDER THE POSSIBILITY that a person with different opinions might be missing horns, a forked tongue and a trident? In the 2002 data from the city's web site we see: * Minneapolis saw a 4% growth in population AFTER DECADES OF LOSS. [capitalization added] See http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/legislativeaffairs/2002PopulationFactsJan03.asp Is it just BARELY POSSIBLE that a person of reasonable goodwill, WITHOUT INTENDING TO COMMIT SOME HEINOUS CRIME, might have POSSIBLY MISTAKENLY extrapolated from the DECADES OF LOSS that the population of Minneapolis was NOT INCREASING? Or, dare I say it, is it even possible that the recent bump in population might be a transient that does not reverse a general trend of Minneapolis population decline? Again, you might want to consider that a reasonable person MIGHT have drawn the conclusion that the population of the city proper was declining, WITHOUT INTENDING TO TRICK THE WORLD into fluoridating the water, banning abortion, driving religion out of the schools or insert your own evil thing here. -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Teacher experience; student poverty
SB == Steve Brandt [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: SB I have to agree with Michael Atherton on this one. Buzzy Bohn SB is correct that some very dedicated senior teachers choose to SB remain in high-poverty schools. North Star school in the SB Jordan neighborhood is an excellent example, although it will SB close in a year. However, overall there's a clear pattern SB that high-poverty schools have less-experienced teachers, and SB there's a correlation between that and test scores. The question is, what should we do about this? I've heard a bunch of suggestions that boil down to force more experienced teachers into high-poverty schools. I would prefer not to do this, because it damages the other schools, and may just drive yet more teachers out of the system. Is there a way to do this with the carrot instead of the stick? What sort of actions could we take to make some of our more gifted and experienced teachers *want* to work in these high-poverty schools? It seems like we've already got plenty of sticks to beat teachers with; we don't need any more. There's an interesting OpEd piece in today's NY Times on the subject: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/27/opinion/27eggers.html? I don't have statistics, but I'm inclined to believe that there is not a true shortage of experienced teachers, because there are so many of them being laid off in the region. If that is true, then we should be able to offer such teachers something that would make them want to go to such places. By analogy with experience in my profession, I'm inclined to think we should go out and ask to try to learn what would make such teachers motivated, rather than just assuming it's higher salary or some other (at least conceptually) easy answer. One possible counter-argument is that the system may be driving teachers out of the profession. I.e., the people being laid off may not still be out there to take up such positions. This is something that happens with nurses, and accounts for the endemic shortage in that field. OTOH, if this *is* true, forcibly reassigning teachers is hardly going to make things any better. A second possible counter-argument is that we are barely able to keep the schools functioning at the current, not entirely satisfactory, level, much less actually improve them. I wish I had a better answer to this one... -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Council committee turns down Lagoon Project
TB == Terrell Brown Terrell writes: [...snip...] TB The Lake Calhoun area has many taller buildings. Lake Point TB is 20 stories (242 feet), Calhoun Towers is 21 stories (191 TB feet), Calhoun Beach Club 9 stories (118 feet), the new TB Calhoun Beach apartments come in at 12 stories as does 3141 TB Dean Court. The Council committee appears to be acting TB arbirarily in voting down this project. Perhaps the whole TB Council will not be so arbitrary. Actually, those buildings are all in a different neighborhood, on the North and West of the lake and don't put stresses on the CARAG neighborhood (my old neighborhood). I can't speak to the issues of the neighborhood where those buildings are, but it just isn't the same one as the new development. As an aside, there's a lot of what I think is well-justified concern about having Lake Calhoun lose its shoreline to urban build-up. I don't mind the city, but I still like to have a lake that has a park on its shoreline, instead of a downtown. TB NIMBY has lived again, too bad NIMBY isn't a cat, they only TB have 9 lives. I'd like to raise this to the level of discussing the discussion. Why is it that on this list it seems impossible for people to disagree about the issues without stooping to thinly-disguised name-calling? In the discussion about the aesthetics and practicality of this development, an issue about which surely people of goodwill can disagree, we have seen, first, an attack that said that all the people who objected (but one) were outside-the-neighborhood troublemakers, and now this NIMBY name-calling. What gives? How about a little more respect for people's different opinions and less rushing to impute sinister motives to everyone who disagrees? -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Council committee turns down Lagoon Project
DG == David Greene [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DG Andy Driscoll wrote: Cause it ain't about the money, but about a quality of life that was threatened by overbuilding, overdeveloping. Why don't people get this stuff: that it cannot always be about the potential money. The project might gain a few bucks in the short term, but the loss of Uptown ambience would drive many denizens back to other lairs. And there goes the neighborhood. This is a great decision. DG I find it interesting that in all our discussion on this topic, a total DG of one person who actually lives or has a business near the development DG objected to it. All of the talk about destroying the character of DG Uptown came from parties less familiar with the actual character and DG needs of the surrounding neighborhoods. OK, I felt the spear-carriers were doing a great job so I didn't say anything. But given the above (which seems to me to be close to an argument ad hominem), I want to stand up and be counted. I was NOT for this, and I DO live in the area, and have lived in Uptown for the entire time I've lived in Minnapolis. DG Nathan is right on in his analysis of the need for density in the DG area to leverage existing pedestrian, bike and public transportation DG infrastructure. Density may be necessary, but it is not sufficient. What happens if you get density and it's density of a 13-storey development full of people who all have cars? What then? No leverage of the alternate transport, and further stress on the car-based transit system. How is that to be avoided. Also, I'm not in favor of having huge buildings loom over my head all the time. If I liked that, I could live in downtown. For that matter, if I wanted to live in a dark urban canyon that is shadowed all day long, I could go back to New York. I *like* being able to see the sky most of the time. DG The site is now a parking lot. I don't see how keeping it that way DG helps the neighborhood at all. A 2- or 4-story development does DG little to improve the situation. One way it might help the neighborhood would be letting my neighbors who don't have garages be able to park, instead of having their blocks filled with the cars of people coming in to savor the character of the neighborhood without any intention of using pedestrian or bus transit. DG I talked to CM Schiff about the decision last night. Apparently DG the city is happy to approve a 10-story project and the developer DG has some time (60 days?) to agree to that plan. Hopefully an DG agreement can be reached and my neighborhood can start filling DG in underused areas. The other point is that we have a zoning ordinance for a reason. OK, maybe we don't like parts of it. In that case, let's fix it. But I don't see why it's a huge win to just chip away at it here and there, and end up with unplanned, incoherent development. If you want to see the zoning loosened up to make this kind of development possible, I'd rather see that be made the focus of the debate, rather than having to have these spasmodic battles over ad hoc, one-off decisions. -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Council committee turns down Lagoon Project
DB == David Brauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DB My pithy view: DB The difference between 10 stories and 13 is trivial. I favor density. DB Traffic/environmental is the bigger problem. Fact is, we don't have a DB reliably funded transit system to make people believe we can be DB denser without the attendant auto pollution and congestion spilling DB into neighborhoods that don't deserve it. DB Sadly, it's a chicken-and-egg thing...density boosts transit, but DB without transit people can believe in, they can legitimately, IMHO, DB oppose that density that may, someday, cause transit to flourish. DB I think we need to control car use somehow with carrots, not DB sticks, hopefully BEFORE we can ask neighbors to accept denser DB projects in areas that, despite the presence of Uptown businesses, DB are still quite residential. If it's leverage you want, how about requiring renters in a big development like this to commit to not having cars? I dunno if that's enforceable, though... -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Minneapolis Public Libraries
WM == wmmarks [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: WM Listers, WM In this broiling weather, remember that all MPL branches are WM air-conditioned and you can stay till closing. And the Hennepin County libraries offer free wireless internet access on top of air-conditioning Now if only I could get coffee there like in Ramsay County... -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Motorcycles
I don't know whether this was just meant as a stick to beat the smoking ban with, or whether it was serious. If it was serious, then those motorcycles were modified to make them noisier. They should be just as citable as people with boom-cars. Unfortunately, they are probably just as likely to be cited as people with boom-cars R -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Carl Pohlad's Contribution
JH == John Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The biggest downside to me of this investment is that I don't see firm commitments from the team to provide affordable seats, and I don't see any way our investment can be protected against major league baseball going on a contraction binge. I understand the Twins are supposed to be committed to fighting contraction, but that isn't like having a nice fat penalty clause to cash out if the team goes away, is it? JH read david's article. it says that the twins are comitted to family JH seating and something like student night. they also said prices would JH be inline with other midwest cities, which, the dome is right now. JH also noted was the contraction issue. the ballpark comission gets 50% JH or the contraction money and any costs incurred by losing the tenant. The problem to me is that the Twins are committed isn't the kind of commitment we can take to court. Or am I wrong about that? The Twins are a business. When you do business, you have to count on contracts, and what you can demand as your right. You can't count on simple pronouncements of good intention, because those are liable to go overboard when things change. Look at what's happened with NWA: we spend a ton of dough on them in exchange for an intention to hire, things change, the intention goes away, and we don't have any way to get back our investment. Note also that there WAS a referendum about the new Library. And the Guthrie provides service to the entire state, traveling around, offering presentations for school kids, etc. It's not a for-profit deal the way the Twins are, much less an organization that pretty much one person's property. JH the twins do clinics for kids around the state all summer long. their JH games can be seen and heard all across the state. the guthrie makes JH you pay for a seat to all performances. it may not be for profit but, JH the people running the show certainly make money and i bet it isn't a JH pittance. I'm sorry, but I'm missing something in the above: it's not for profit, but the people running it are making money The not for profit part means that there are no investors who are pulling a profit off the top. If you mean the employees are making money, I think you should stop and ask yourself what you think the people you see on stage at the Guthrie make versus the ballplayers Your assertions above about the economics of theater are simply not true. Drama (and classical music, Opera, etc.) is overall a losing proposition economically, that must be sponsored by the state or philanthropy. To the extent these art forms were ever profitable, that was in a time with radically different labor economics. The Minnesota Opera charges about $60 a ticket, and must get a lot of its costs covered by philanthropy. Think of all the people that must be on stage: the orchestra, the chorus, etc., etc. I'm looking at what's happening to our schools, and I think there's a real question to be asked here OK, baseball is a real asset. Is it worth more than a generation of well-educated kids? *All* spending decisions have to be evaluated in context, because whatever you spend on one thing you can't spend on something else. We don't just have to ask whether baseball is a real asset, but what we are willing to sacrifice to it. JH we are not sacrificing education for baseball if this deal goes JH through. education doesn't lose a penny in this deal. Why not? The tax money that's going to the stadium is not going to education. And it's not an investment like building a factory, that will produce wealth that can be spent on education. At best, this money will create a small increment to taxes that could eventually trickle down to education, but up front it's money that's not available for education, health care, bombs, or whatever other cause is close to your heart. Furthermore, this is not a good investment from the standpoint of return on the dollar alone (as I've said, I think that baseball is, in general, a good thing, but I don't think we should pretend it's a good thing in ways that it is not). When you spend money on one thing, you don't have that money, so you can't spend it on something else. If we take this money and spend it on the stadium, it's not there to spend on education. No, because people will drive to downtown, park their cars, go to the games, and then drive home. This won't anchor the downtown. Block E type stuff will do a lot more to anchor the downtown. JH the only thing block e has that is better is the businesses inside are JH open 365 where the ball park will sit unused many days of the JH year. That's not at all true. The thing that Block E has better from the standpoint of Minneapolis taxpayers is that it is not a walled-off location
[Mpls] some thoughts on the storm water fee
Thanks to Mark for a very thoughtful, interesting and persuasive posting. As an aside, seems like a lot of the complaints have come from Duplex owners. I don't mean to be too unsympathetic, but really, duplex owners get a pretty sweet deal from the city in terms of taxes, etc. I think it's a great thing, personally, because it helps overcome the problem of people being taxed out of their houses, and can help get into a house to begin with. But in general the city is not picking on duplex owners -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Stadium deal
JH == John Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 2. I would be a lot more in favor of this deal if there was some commitment to providing some cheap bleacher seats for the people whose tax dollars went into the stadium. I'm afraid that we might end up with one of those new boutiquey stadiums that's small, and full of expensive seats and boxes, a la Camden Yard. That's great for the owner (each seat yields more revenue), but crummy for the ordinary fans. JH Twins tickets run from $38 at the high end to $6 at the low end. the JH low end tickets are the upper deck outfield seats that aren't worth JH $6. JH camden yards prices are $45 at the high end and $9 at the low end with JH some $8 standing room seats. JH Prices will go up but not by much at the low end. If that's the case, I'm not sure why the Twins organization has missed the opportunity to sell this story. If they had made the point that they were providing affordable family entertainment, it would certainly have swayed my position (I've always been a stadium opponent). The fact that they have NOT been willing to make such a case has always made me suspicious. I have been envisaging something where it will cost a family of four more than $100 to go to a ball game. Question: will there be a reasonable number of such bleacher seats? Anyone know how many? I hope they WON'T do standing room --- that's entirely too much Lords and groundlings for me. It has a very un-American feel to it (in my opinion). Or, now that I think about it -- a very Northwest Airlines feel to it! :-) In general, the Twins could have done a MUCH better job selling this. They have tried repeatedly to ram this through, rather than selling it; they have threatened, instead of cajoled; and when they have done outreach, they have only tried to rally their fans, rather than making an effort to persuade the swing voters and opponents. They didn't make any real effort to persuade us that a new stadium would be a social good. The economic arguments are VERY flimsy, and they never convinced me it would be a total catastrophe if we were to lose major league baseball. I, for one, needed to be convinced that they were willnig to provide the community, my community, a family experience that would be enjoyable and affordable. I haven't heard them make that case. Best, R -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Stadium deal
I had one question and one comment about this deal: 1. What happens if the league contracts? Do we get left holding the bag for this stadium? Can we do anything to keep major league baseball from closing the Twins franchise? 2. I would be a lot more in favor of this deal if there was some commitment to providing some cheap bleacher seats for the people whose tax dollars went into the stadium. I'm afraid that we might end up with one of those new boutiquey stadiums that's small, and full of expensive seats and boxes, a la Camden Yard. That's great for the owner (each seat yields more revenue), but crummy for the ordinary fans. Anyone know about either of these aspects? Thanks, R -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Rebecca Otto at 10th Ward Convention
EY == Eva Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: AD Andy Driscoll writes: AD The DFL is long overdue for instituting multiple endorsements AD when a single endorsement would be divisive, and relying on AD the primary to sort out which candidate DFL voters and not AD just delegates prefer to see win. AD The party has lost so many elections over its stubborn refusal AD to move to multiple endorsements of qualified contenders, AD especially in partisan races, but at all levels, as well as AD its insistence that candidates pledge to abide by the AD convention's single and divisive endorsement, it's become AD ridiculous. It's masochistic in its result. And sad. EY EY: This would make sense especially for city races. The City EY DFL for Minneapolis and St Paul will end up doing in much of EY the good will built up about Democrats from the elections last EY year. OK, I can see why not managing to come up with an endorsement would be a bad thing, but if you're going to endorse more than one candidate, why bother? Is party discipline worth nothing? Compare the success at the federal level of the Republican party. They've gotten to the top and stayed there by party discipline. If you buck the party, they kick your butt. Why would becoming less disciplined be a good thing for a poitical party to do? -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Two recent New York Times stories about the Walker Art Center
Architecture Review | Walker Art Center: An Expansion Gives New Life to an Old Box By NICOLAI OUROUSSOFF http://tinyurl.com/al9l3 and Art Review: Probing Fringes, Finding Stars By HOLLAND COTTER http://tinyurl.com/7lquc -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Restructuring Mpls School Board
DRG == Dorie Rae Gallagher [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DRG - Original Message - DRG From: Derek Burrows Reise [EMAIL PROTECTED] DRG To: mpls@mnforum.org DRG Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 1:59 PM DRG Subject: [Mpls] Restructuring Mpls School Board Posted at http://www.mplsobserver.com/news.php?action=fullnewsid=108 , the Mpls Observer says that Rep. Davnie is pushing a bill to restructure the Minneapolis Public School Board. According to the news story, the bill would increase the number of School Board members from six to nine. Six of those would be elected by district and three at-large--just as the Park Board is structured. DRG Is there any way to compel the Park and School board to maintain the same districts? Derek Burrows Reise DRG About time there is a change in the School Board and there DRG should be members taking ownership for a district or DRG two. Otherwise, some areas have no voice, no recourse, no DRG power. Such as what was happening in our area the past couple DRG of years. Let someone be elected who will represent the area, DRG be accountable for what is happening, and keep us informed. I simply don't see why this is desirable. In the current arrangement, it's one person, one vote. In the proposed new arrangement, the votes of citizens in parts of town where no one turns out will have a disproportionate weight. The reason that some areas have no voice, no recourse, no power, is that the people in those areas don't show up at the ballot box. You can give them a district of their own, but if they don't bother to show up at the polls, they still won't have any voice. All you will have done is create some rotten boroughs, where the few who do bother to vote will own a seat. That's a recipe for corruption, not representation. -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Restructuring Mpls School Board
Thanks to Derek for a very thoughtful response to my email and, even better, one that brought some new facts to the discussion. He's gone a long way to convincing me... DBR == Derek Burrows Reise [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [...snip...] Derek points out that it would be hard to get the bad outcome that worried me: DBR With the restructuring proposal for the school board, DBR we're talking about Minneapolis being carved into 6 DBR districts. That's over 60,000 people per district. DBR Compare that to the 13 city wards, 10.5 state house DBR districts, and 6 park board districts. That's a DBR pretty sizeable plot of land for a single interest to DBR control due to political non-participation. DBR While there is a disparity in voter turnout in DBR Minneapolis (in 2004 Ward 6 had a 58% turnout (the DBR lowest) and Ward 13 had an 81% turnout (the highest)), DBR I don't think that's at the level that gives a citizen DBR in one district a significant amount of more power DBR than in another district. [...snip...] DBR One of the current board members responded to me that DBR the board exists for all Minneapolis school children DBR and therefore it is important to be elected citywide, DBR versus a neighborhood. But I think in practice that DBR means we elect folks to 4 year terms, and the office DBR is far enough down-ballot, and the power of party DBR endorsement and incumbancy is strong enough, that they DBR are accountable to no one. This is a very good point, that the terms might be too long to keep the board members accountable. I'm not so convinced that endorsement is huge, but incumbency would be a big one. Does anyone know the typical number of terms school board members serve, historically? Best, R -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Better Bridges for Homeless? We need some public restrooms
gg == gemgram [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: gg The laws against sleeping outside are aimed only at the gg homeless who have no where else to sleep. When was the last gg time a Homed someone was arrested for sleeping while sitting gg on a park bench? When was the last time a homed someone was gg arrested for sleeping while laying on a blanket by Lake gg Calhoun or Lake of the Isles? [...snip...] gg Those who allow laws against being poor or who do nothing gg about such conditions sort of come to mind when contemplating gg that law. The only time some people are not hypocrites is in gg their sleep. I try to remember this when I see a politician gg who is awake. Actually, couldn't there be unintended consequences to making it legal to sleep outdoors? If it's illegal to sleep outdoors, you can pick up someone when it's 20 below, and take them somewhere to sleep. If it's ok, what do you do? Just let them freeze to death? Or is there something in the law that would allow you to remove people on the grounds that they pose a risk to themselves (the same way you can sometimes temporarily imprison someone who is psychotic)? [...snip...] gg I actually have been told by more than one public official gg that the reason we don't use the buildings is that it would gg cost too much to bring them up to code to allow someone too gg sleep there. Actually, there are lots of things like this. Under most circumstances, you can't just give unused prepared food to the homeless. Sounds heartless, but what happens the first time someone gets some hideous disease from eating food off someone else's plate? Likewise, what happens if you let people sleep in any old not-up-to-code building, and they get killed when a floor collapses? I think your outrage is getting you carried away here. Sometimes things are less crazy than they seem... -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Missing in Minneapolis - Kids Activites
By and large, I think that Mineapolis offers a wealth of opportunities for kids, including young children. However, there is one area where I think we're lacking: indoor areas that offer children exercise opportunities. Especially with smaller, younger children, who don't yet have a lot of body mass, this is a real need in the winter. This is a place where the suburbs are ahead of us. I think it would be great if the Park Board would look into providing some such facilities. One might argue that we should be doing more of those Minnesota-style outdoor winter sports. I don't know whether it's global warming or what, but the past few years have been just ROTTEN for sledding and ice skating --- too many burps of warm weather and too little snow[1]. I don't see any reason to believe that this trend won't continue... Footnotes: [1] My son said winter vacation is over and we've had NO snow! -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Transportation Choices 2020
I'm inclined to favor mass-transit, but there's some disturbing research on why Americans tend not to use it. I grew up in a New York suburb, and the train was a fabulous means of transit. For all those Dads who went in to work and came home. But now we have lots of two-earner homes, where *both* adults work. You can get on a train or a bus if you need to go to work and go home. If you need to drop your kids off and go to work, then leave work, pick up your kids, and go to a grocery store, you need a car. Public transit works well in ultra-dense places, where you can pick up your kids, drop into a shop, and get on a bus. But that's New York City, Paris, London, etc. There are perilous few U.S. cities that are constructed in this way. I live in a very dense part of the city, but even I can't use the bus to deliver kids to school and do shopping simultaneously. Note that the decline of neighborhood schools (or the redefinition of neighborhood to cover very large areas) is part of the problem, but not all of it. -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Hiawatha Stoplights (was Re: [Mpls] Personal Rapid Transit)
Dan == Dan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: AG: This is pure speculation on my part. I figured the real problem with the traffic lights on 55 is that they haven't dug up the streets to install proper traffic sensing equipment so the signals can function according to cars that are present. They seem to be on timers at the moment which just doesn't work for a route that busy with a pesky train thrown into the mix. Dan Whatever the problem is, I pray someone will figure it out, Dan and fix it. When Hiawatha was rebuilt, it was a very nice Dan route from the airport to downtown, and just a nice quick Dan path through South Minneapolis. Now, everything about it is Dan terrible. Trying to cross, or turn onto Hiawatha is a cruel Dan experiment in human tolerance, and travelling either Dan direction down it depletes brake pads more than gas. The more Dan they tinker with the lights, the worse it gets. I've had a Dan deepening suspicion the engineers want travel by car on Dan Hiawatha to be torturous to try to coerce us onto the train. I'm afraid I can't point to a source, but I recall reading in the Star-Tribune that there was some key component to synchronizing the signals with the trains that was left out of the system as a cost-saving measure. Perhaps someone else on the list can find a citation to the article or another source of information. I believe that there is actually some inadequacy with either the signal actuation, or sensing that makes effective coordination of train and auto traffic impossible without substantial additional investment. -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Automobile Insurance Reform
WLDJ == WLDJ [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: WLDJ To again keep this local, we need to WLDJ discuss ways to reduce Minneapolis premiums such as, WLDJ discouraging speeding and red light running, encouraging WLDJ police investigations of hit and run vehicle damage WLDJ accidents, encouraging folks to secure their cars with The WLDJ Club or other such locking devices or taking the time to WLDJ park the car in the garage, Are you sure that our premiums are high because of auto damage (the locking devices and garaging points above)? I ask because of the almost nil effect on my premiums when I was looking into dropping comprehensive and collision. Seems like liability (and perhaps covering my personal medical expenses) are where the $$ go. So theft may be a red herring in this issue. Anyone know for sure? -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Wireless Minneapolis - one more thing, quick speed discussion
A.J. is, of course, right, and I was wrong. Typed too soon. I think it's pretty odd that Minneapolis would be offering better service than the commercial alternative, for less. I had just (wrongly) assumed it would be likely to be a little worse, but cheaper. No wonder Qwest and the cable companies are mad! -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Doug Grow's Mythology
Mr. Atherton's use of name-calling (racist, segregation) in this message, in my opinion, crosses the boundaries of polite discourse and, possibly, the rules of conduct for this list. It's hard for me to see how we will ever form a coalition of concerned citizens to build a better school system for all, if any honest difference of opinion is to be met with this kind of abuse. I invite the rest of the list to read my comments: I agree with Mr. Atherton that the schools need fixing. I don't recall EVER implying or stating that poor children could not be educated. All I have said was that we should try to level the school system UPWARD, not DOWNWARD, and attempt not to harm the parts of the system that function well, in fixing those that don't function. For that, I get branded as some kind of Klan member. Thanks a lot. I put it to you that it is counterproductive to abuse the people who are willing to stay in the city and slug it out to make the schools work well for all. There are plenty of people who have voted with their feet and left the school system altogether. I suppose if one wishes to swell their numbers, this is a fine way to do it. I don't see how that will help anyone. -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Doug Grow's Mythology
Dan == Dan McGuire [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: David On Feb 14, 2005, at 7:33 AM, Michael Atherton wrote: a) Nothing has been done about the problem of there being a disproportionate number of inexperienced teachers in minority schools. A problem that everyone acknowledges is a contributing factor to the poor performance of minority students. David I agree with this. It would be good to see a district David official and/or School Board member tell the list what's up David with this. The obvious question is: how do we fix this problem without destroying the successful functioning of schools that have teams that have worked together well for years? [...snip...] Is there any way to use incentives to get more experienced teachers to want to choose some of these schools?' Dan It's probably going to take more than just money to get Dan teachers to want to move to the toughest schools. After Dan 18 years in the business world where a lot of what I did Dan had to do with compensation incentives for sales people Dan and strategies for structuring sales organizations, I can Dan tell you that the incentives that work in the business Dan world aren't going to work the same way in schools. Money Dan and power are not high on the list of motivators for Dan teachers and all the others that work in schools. Dan Teachers want to be successful teachers and part of a Dan successful team of teachers and parents in a supportive Dan community. Most teachers are not entrepenuers in the way Dan that entrepenuers operate in the business world. There Dan are plenty of skills that can be transfered (I've found Dan that ATT V.P. scams aren't all that different from 3rd Dan grade playground issues.) Good teaching, necessarily has Dan a much longer 'sales cycle.' It's a multi-year process Dan and is dependent on the efforts of many besides just the Dan classroom teacher, which is why the pay for performance Dan schemes that are modeled after business incentives don't Dan work well. Dan One idea that I've heard is for the district to incent a Dan whole team of successful teachers from one school to move Dan to a school that is struggling. It won't be cheap, but Dan educating our children on the cheap is not what most Dan people want anyway. The problem is finding not only the Dan money but the experience to put a turn around team in Dan place. Really good points by Dan, I think, about how to incentivize teachers. Teachers, like others, like to be parts of teams that function well, and are demoralized when they're not. The only problem I see with Dan's point about moving a team of successful teachers, is what the School Board is going to tell the parents of the students at the functioning school who are having their teaching team ripped away. [I'm proposing that any solution to this problem should satisfy the Hippocratic rule do no harm.] How about this for an alternative: recruit a group of teachers to move into the troubled school in school year 1. That summer, pay the teachers (and Principal) to work together to prepare for the next school year, and in the process, build them into a team that work well together. That way one would have a chance at getting a functioning team without destroying an existing functioning school. Of course, in today's climate, the word pay in the above might sink it, but perhaps some foundation funding or other external source might be tapped. A second problem is that there are presumably teachers already in the disfunctioning school. What happens to them? What happens to their contracts? What happens when the school board gets sued? DJT == Dorothy Titus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DJT Allen Graetz wrote: DJT I wish this were the case. BUt even this is based upon the DJT assumption that any of these children that move to a better DJT school have parents that are involved enough in their lives DJT to make that happen. And unfortunately in some of the DJT neighborhoods where this occurs, there are too many parents DJT who do not do this. We need to keep this in mind and make DJT sure that no matter how much more public or private the DJT education system becomes that there is a need for programs to DJT help children who do not have parents who are capable of DJT helping or simply do not care. That doesn't necessarily mean DJT that the government has to provide this service, but it's DJT needed. There are a few bad parents in this world. So it DJT goes DJT Ahhh, but that is the beauty of keeping kids in their DJT neighborhood schools. Those parents who ARE willing to do DJT something (like move their
Re: [Mpls] Doug Grow's Mythology
David == David Brauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: David On Feb 14, 2005, at 7:33 AM, Michael Atherton wrote: a) Nothing has been done about the problem of there being a disproportionate number of inexperienced teachers in minority schools. A problem that everyone acknowledges is a contributing factor to the poor performance of minority students. David I agree with this. It would be good to see a district David official and/or School Board member tell the list what's up David with this. The obvious question is: how do we fix this problem without destroying the successful functioning of schools that have teams that have worked together well for years? I'm all for seeing this problem addressed, but I'm worried that the obvious solution will be a ham-fisted scattering of the existing body of experienced teachers across the whole system. That would just create a system-side disfunction in place of a localized one. I've worked with the government (and large businesses) long enough to know that easy solutions to fairness issues often involve leveling down, instead of leveling up. Leveling down just leaves everybody worse off. Remember, if you're inclined to be ok with leveling down, that you can easily just move your accomplishment gap into a public school/private school gap, and THAT one is a heck of a lot less amenable of solution, since you aren't going to be able to level up OR down across that one, and it's likely to rip away a big hunk of the tax base needed to do any improvements to the MPS. So Is there any way to use incentives to get more experienced teachers to want to choose some of these schools? Has anybody explained why this skill level difference happens, anyway? I mean what is the MECHANISM? We seem to have had years and years of teacher layoffs. Where do all of these inexperienced teachers come from? Seems like we should have plenty of good, experienced teachers who aren't being used. Also, does this happen because when you put someone in one of these schools, they tend to quit, so that no body of experience ever gets built up there? If so, then any solution must involve making these places more attractive to teachers. [...snip...] David This is not to suggest Michael is wrong - we shouldn't David tolerate failure but it perhaps also proves Steve Cross's David larger point that there are larger societal pressures that David shouldn't be ignored when evaluating schools. I agree. Michael's point was that we're not going to eliminate poverty, so we've just got to fix (and blame) the schools. But that's like saying I'm never going to be able to afford a wrench, so I'll just have to hit this bolt harder with my hammer. If public schools have to spend all their time teaching kids not to wallop each other; feeding them, because they don't get good nutrition at home; and providing the major locus of social services, how are they going to have the time in the day to teach reading, writing, and arithmetic? If you've got kids who are lost in the mess of foster care and homelessness, there's a limit to what you can fix in the schools, unless you open a public boarding school (hmmm... maybe that wouldn't be a totally bad idea). Best, R -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] City sales tax
MH == Michael Hohmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: MH You heard my take on the issue prior to the vote (my [Mpls] MH Tax Increment Financing (TIF) policy in Mpls. post of 2/10). MH There are alternatives to a regressive sales tax increase. MH It's a matter of spending priorities. It would be nice if the MH legislature informs Mpls. voters whether this will simply be a MH trade out for LGA funds next session, prior to the fall MH referendum and city elections... such knowledge might MH influence votes. Seems like the state gov't. has been taking away some of these alternatives. What alternatives are we left with, and which have been pulled away from us? Also, what form of voter assent is required for each (do any require referenda)? Thanks! Robert -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Council Member Schiff on idling and industrial jobs
MT == Michael Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: MT Just because the industry may be engaging in typical MT arguments and overwrought warnings of terrible consequences MT that come from any industry when legislation is proposed to MT curb that industry's pollution doesn't invalidate Dyna's MT points, nor mean that any substantive remedies will result MT from the trucks not idling. They are an extremely small MT problem compared to the buses (they spew a buttload of fumes, MT idling or not, and if you think I'm kidding, be in the car MT next to the exhaust pipe of one of those beasts), firetrucks, MT city vehicles, and utility trucks and all the other vehicles MT that will be exempted whose engines will be required to idle MT so those vehicles can get their jobs done. (I love exemptions MT to pollution ordinances. It's as if only certain vehicles, MT the ones that are bad like commericial vehicles, pollute, MT and buses, which are good vehicles, don't.) The obvious difference is that buses and school buses don't idle outside your window in the middle of the night while you're trying to sleep. MT But I don't think the ordinance was proposed to curb that MT industry's pollution. That's a nice, pretty, trendy way to MT label it for sale to whoever will buy it. I think the MT ordinance as proposed is not about pollution at all..it MT is, quite simply, because the neighbors don't like the trucks, MT and had them banned. (Not unlike the smoking ban... that MT wasn't about the health of workers, it was about a subset of MT people that don't like smoke and imposition of will, but MT that's a different thread). I think you may be underestimating the inconvenience imposed on a few people who are habitually subjected to having trucks idle overnight near their houses. Your argument above, which seems unnecessarily aggressive, is that these are people who are just fussy. What grounds do you have to make this accusation? MT Anyway, as a consequence, trucks will probably still be able MT to come into the city to unload their goods, but it will make MT it a heck of a lot less convenient for them to do so. Prices MT may go up. I hope they do. I hope truckers charge more, or MT they charge some sort of Delivery to Minneapolis fee. It MT certainly shouldn't be a problem for those people who are MT Happy to Pay for a Better Minnesota. This is a case where we suffer from not having more centralization in government regulation (note that I'm not arguing for more centralization --- there are pro's as well as cons to decentralization). If we had more centralized regulation, we could establish a discipline of using the electrical plug-ins, that would level the playing field, both between Minneapolis and surrounds, and between truckers, since the cost of the plug-ins would just be rolled into the cost of products for everyone. The current arrangement is one of those cases where we have a race to the bottom --- nobody should pay to use the electrical plug-ins, because that just penalizes them vis a vis their competitors. An alternative approach to regulation for those who prefer market solutions, would be to make people pay for the idling in some way, so that individuals would be motivated to solve the problem. In the current case, though, nobody in the trucking industry or the regulators thereof is motivated to solve the idling problem, which leaves us with the city council trying its own solution. About that solution, you think the cost to the truckers is more important than that of people living near idling trucks, and others think the exact opposite. My guess is that we're not going to come to a consensus about that issue, and probably we ought to stop talking about it, because we're just going to get more and more hot under the collar to no great purpose. Best, R -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Re: Should Minneapolis DFL Delay Endorsements?
Dorian == Dorian Eder [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dorian I share some of your concerns about PR. Especially as a Dorian resident of Northeast, which is already seriously Dorian under-represented in local government at-large bodies, I Dorian fear the Southwest would simply dominate the council Dorian because they have higher turnout. The areas of our city Dorian with the lowest voter turnout (Near North, Dinkytown), Dorian could become the next 'flyover country'. Those seeking Dorian election wouldn't have to spend their time or resources Dorian trying to gain their (relatively) small number of votes. Dorian Ask anyone who's run for an at-large office lately where Dorian they put their time and money. Well, the counter-argument to this is that you don't WANT a lot of representatives from places where people don't vote. This is NOT because you don't want those people represented. The reason you don't want representatives from low-turnout areas is that that is a recipe for corruption. When you have districts with low-turnout that have representation, it is all too easy to steal[1] the election, because all you have to do is get some buddies to turn out for you (or pay a few people who aren't your buddies). Not only does this give rotten government (and having lived in New Orleans and Providence, RI for many years, I can tell you, Minneapolis is strictly bush league for bad government!), it also sets up a situation where it is in the interests of the area's representative to DISCOURAGE turnout, to keep their safe seat in a rotten borough. If you don't like what's happening to Near North and Dinkytown, with respect, I think you should spend your time getting more people to the polling place, and less time making sure that the few people who do get to have disproportionate influence on city decision-making. Cheers, R Footnotes: [1] Scare quotes because this isn't really stealing. -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Council committee passes anti-idling ordinance
Dan == Dan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dan (8) Operation of a mobile refrigeration unit while stopped, Dan standing or parked outside of an insulated building in a Dan residentially used area between the hours of 10:00 Dan p.m. and 6:00 a.m. Dan WOW! The ordinance actually prohibits refrigeration Dan overnight??! All I can say is WOW! WO! WOW!! Is this really what the ordinance says? To me the outside of an insulated building reads more like you can't do this if you're doing it outside a building that could do the refrigeration without idling. But I can't say for sure, since I don't know what insulated building means and why they specifically put in insulated. Can anyone explain this to me? -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] T-H-E W-I-N-G
GL == Gregory Luce [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: GL In the middle of this discussion, I happened to pick up an GL excellent feature article in The Rake about public libraries GL in general and local libraries specifically, with discussion GL about the Minneapolis Central Library: GL http://www.rakemag.com/features/detail.asp?catID=61itemID=20442 From the article: GL It makes sense, then, that Minneapolis' main library should GL be widely cherished, that it should be the loveliest and most GL generously funded in Minnesota. Indeed, the new building going GL up on Hennepin Avenue has raised eyebrows because, to some, GL the expenditure feels extravagant, what with recent budget GL tightening and, especially, reduced operating hours at many GL library branches. The central library itself typically GL operates just seven hours per day and is closed on Sundays; GL considering Minneapolis' across-the-board financial troubles, GL there is no telling how often the new building will be open. A GL frugal person might wonder: Why not just leave the main branch GL in the Federal Reserve Bank, or retrofit some other existing GL structure, maybe in the warehouse district? After all, GL St. Paul makes do with a building that's almost a century GL old. (The city just spent $15.9 million to renovate it.) GL The answer to that query is this: In 2000, the citizens of GL Minneapolis voted to build a new library. Now well under way, GL the structure is largely funded by a $140 million city GL referendum that passed by a two-to-one margin. Times were GL still flush back then, and the state was footing a significant GL portion of the system's operating budget. So generous, GL educated, liberal Minneapolis specified that the referendum GL money could only be spent on a showpiece central library, and GL to improve various community branches, such as the north GL side's newly renovated Sumner Library. If people want to gripe GL about poor decision-making, they should point the finger at GL the geniuses who moved the main library out of its original GL location on Tenth and Hennepin, a castle-like structure that GL strongly resembled the Lumber Exchange Building. They plunked GL it down in a 1960s-era box that was difficult to expand or GL update and constructed in such a way as to hold together for GL only forty years. OK, I'm not sure of my facts here, but here's a reason why the move out of the old library building into the square one might not have been so stupid, and why it's unlikely we can just stay in the new temporary space. Libraries are HEAVY. It is very difficult to build a library that can hold a lot of books. I remember being in Providence, RI and hearing how difficult it was for Brown University to keep its Science Library standing because its collection was getting too heavy for its foundation. I am a big supporter of keeping old buildings, and I regret the losses of historic buildings that downtown has suffered. But in general it's simply not possible to take over a normal building and make it into your central library. Yes, the central branch is functioning in temporary space, but it's NOT functioning well, and a large chunk of the collection is locked up in deep storage and unreachable. I have repeatedly looked up things in the catalog and found that they were unavailable until 2006. Library buildings, at least for institutions with large collections, are very specialized, and you just can't take any old building and put a huge collection of books in them. Books are dense in a way that office workers are not. So that would be `A frugal person *who hasn't thought very hard about the problem* might wonder: why not just leave the main branch in the Federal Reserve Bank, or retrofit some other existing structure, maybe in the warehouse district?' The answer may well be that you can't retrofit without digging yourself a new foundation. -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Priorities
MT == Michael Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: MT Like it or not, the police do make split-second decisions on MT the street when working with the mentally ill. [...] MT To make this a MPLS issue, look at the case of the Somali man MT a couple of years ago. Completely justified in every way, the MT police in that matter couldn't win for losing (no thanks to MT Mr. Jamal, but he'll be making less of a ruckus in MPLS from MT here on out, I suspect). Anyway, the machete the young Somali MT man was carrying was no less lethal and menacing just because MT it was carried by a mentally ill man. They were forced to act MT and use lethal force. It's too bad, but what else are the MT cops to do? Actually, even Michael doesn't do the MPD full justice here. I was amazed to hear that there was any protest in this case, since the Star-Tribune story reported that man who was killed had been tasered at least twice (either twice or three times), to no effect, before he was shot. And I saw the photograph of the machete (2' long) in the paper, which made me sympathize with the officers in question even more. Maybe society should have served this person better in terms of mental health care, but it sure seemed to me on the basis of newspaper coverage, that the MPD tried hard to avoid lethal force in this case. This was a no-win case for the MPD. -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] School Choice: Minneapolis
DW == David Weinlick [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DW On Saturday, January 29, 2005, at 04:17 PM, Michael Atherton wrote: about the school or its curriculum. What strikes me as important is that this Math/Science Magnet has only 42% of third graders rated as proficient in Math. The percentage raises to 59% in fifth grade (a good sign), but still far below the level I would accept before sending my child to school there. DW I find it interesting that your earlier was that Hale was very DW different than the rest of the district in terms of racial DW diversity. However, your comment about test scores seems odd DW in that context, as 59% in math is close to the district DW average. In fact, I'm not sure what school choices one would DW make if you require high test scores and a low percentage of DW white students. If everyone looked for schools using that DW standard, we would have an exodus from most of the school DW district into just a few schools. Not very many Minneapolis DW schools do have significantly higher scores in math. Can you expand on this a little? I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take home from this. Am I supposed to feel that a 59% on the test scores is a good thing? Or simply that one can't choose between schools based on math achievement scores? I'm happy with our experience with the Minneapolis schools, and a booster, but that doesn't mean I'm just rah-rah all the time. A 59% score on math being isn't one of the things I'd be happy about... By the way, can anyone supply an easy-to-use link to reach the testing scores? Another one of the things that I'm not rah-rah about about the Minneapolis schools is the design of their web site. It's difficult to navigate, information is buried, and the designers definitely don't have the same idea as I do about what material goes with what topic items... The best I could find in about 5 minutes was to go to the Hale (since that's what got us started) info sheet, where I find that 03-04 3rd grade math proficiency District-wide was only 50% Best, R -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Minneapolis Public Schools food program
I was wondering if anyone on the list has been reviewing the MPS food offerings. In particular, I have on occasion looked over the school breakfast program, and the menus seem to me appalling. I know that one wants the kids to actually EAT the food, and I know that we are worried about kids who just don't get food in the morning at all, but couldn't we do a little better? We don't actually serve chocolate frosted sugar bombs, since those were an invention from the Calvin and Hobbes comic strip, but the school breakfast seems pretty close to that. I don't see any reason to believe that kids in Minneapolis are exempt from the nationwide epidemic of obesity, early-onset diabetes, etc. Should we be pushing to reform this program? I'm not asking for free-range organic tofu entrees, but isn't there some reasonable middle ground other than what we've got? Here are a couple of example menus: 3 Jan: Cocoa Krispies Apple Danish Hot Pocket Jelly Biscuit Graham Crackers O.J. Milk 10 Jan: Smart Start [?] PB J Bar French Toast Shoogies [Shoogies???] Graham Crackers O.J. Milk I'd love to hear reactions from anyone who knows more than me about nutrition (this won't narrow the field much!), etc. Thanks, -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] School Choice: Minneapolis
Barbara == Barbara Lickness [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Barbara The introduction of the IB/PYP program at Whittier now Barbara offers parents an opportunity to give their children a Barbara seamless education in IB throughout grade Barbara school. Currently, the middle school IB program for south Barbara Mpls is offered at Anwatin and the High School IB program Barbara is offered through Southwest High School. We are hoping Barbara parents will consider requesting the district to expand Barbara Whittier School from a K-5 program to a K-8 program in Barbara the future. For now, Whittier will remain K-5. I'd be interested to hear more about this, since we live in the area. At the time of the school closings a number of parents and educators expressed concerns about the ability of Whittier to absorb additional students (there was talk about consuming Jefferson). Problems mentioned were the lack of dedicated gym space, auditoriums and limited bathroom facilities. Also, how has the whole accreditation issue been progressing? My understanding was that there was some IB accrediting body that would have to be involved. Thanks, Barbara! Robert -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Airport Redux: Shrinking Airline Industry
GH == Gary Hoover [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: GH I submit that the expansion of the Mpls/St. Paul airport is a GH terrible waste of resources. I also submit that we must spend GH our transportation dollars on energy-efficient urban design GH and transportation modes. Consider this: The airline industry GH burns some 18 billion gallons of jet fuel each year. Even if you don't accept all of Gary's arguments related to oil scarcity, this still seems like a goofy investment. We are talking about sinking more of our resources into an all-or-nothing bet on one of the major airlines, at precisely the time when the business model of these airlines is in serious question. The small and short-haul airlines seem to be on the rise, and all the biggies seem to be in serious trouble. Why should we be doubling up our bet on NWA instead of diversifying? For that matter, why the heck should I have to be shunted to the Humphrey Terminal for the sin of wanting to fly on some airline other than NWA? This really burns me up... Cheers, R -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] traffic violations
DJR == David J Rust David writes: DJR On Jan 20, 2005, at 3:44 PM, Leurquin, Ronald wrote: Does anyone know the status of the much discussed camera cops for ticketing persons running red lights? I personally am hoping we get them sooner rather than later. I was privileged to watch two different semi run the light at 50th and Hiawatha this morning. DJRThis is an interesting issue to me. DJROn one hand, I have a fundamental discomfort with surveillance systems DJR being used by the state or state-sanctioned offices to spy on citizens. DJROn the other hand, enforcement of traffic laws is always criticized as DJR either not sufficient to force good behavior on the road or taking away DJR police officers from more pressing concerns. DJRIn the end, I'm not sure that I'm fond of the cameras. I obey the DJR laws -we ALL obey the laws, don't we? insert cynical smile, DJR here- but even if it means fining another bad driver $100, I DJR feel that the cold, impartial eye of a camera is something DJR that I don't want watching me. Personally, I may be willing DJR to live with the status quo or paying for more traffic patrol DJR officers as visible deterrent rather than relying upon a DJR somewhat Orwellian approach. Actually, I think your impression of this as Orwellian is not justified by the actual technology (unless the city plans to use a VERY inappropriate method), and I'm inclined to challenge you on the tradeoff (although everyone's perception of risk is their own). RISK: For all the talk about the war on terror, and a zillion other threats I can't be bothered to remember right now, the biggest threat to my life, and the lives of my family members is being squashed by some jerk who can't be bothered to drive carefully and in a law-abiding way. Sadly, the number of such jerks seems to be skyrocketing. To me, the price of the status quo is too high, and despite the very real threat of automotive death, no police department that I've ever seen (so no denigration to the Minneapolis Police is intended), has given traffic enforcement, particularly for moving violations, anything near the priority it should have, judging from mortality rates. At best, we see fitful pushes to crack down, restricted in area and duration. Even when we do see more enforcement, I think you'll find that the rate of conviction can be low. If you fight a ticket, the chance is very, very, high that you will win, because it's too expensive to throw away an officer's time to go to traffic court. DJRI trust the police; I trust the real, human officers DJRwho can walk up DJR to my window if I've broken a law. I can talk to that person DJR and I appreciate the human quality of it. The cameras are DJR another issue altogether. The analogy that springs to mind DJR is the automated voice mail systems that have made talking to DJR your doctor such a chore. I feel that a dispassionate, DJR computer-controlled system is something that is intimidating. I'd be interested to see whether members of various minority communities feel the same way. As I've said above, I think there's essentially a 0% probability that we will see any human-based enforcement. But let's pretend for a moment that there were: even in that case these cameras would be a nice alternative to the arguments, and lawsuits, over racial profiling I can easily imagine following hot on the heels of stepped up enforcement. I think members of minority groups should support the cameras, and the MPD should feel that this gives them the opportunity to dodge unpleasant controversy. DJRI'm not sure I want to feel as if Minneapolis is now DJRunder the protective eye of something that I can't DJRaccept as human. Even if live police are monitoring DJRthe cameras on the other end, I would still feel this DJRway ... as if I was, to an extent, under lockdown in DJRmy own home. PRIVACY RISK: You will have more of your privacy preserved under a camera system that just take snapshots of your car and license plate, if you run a light, than under human surveillance. This is what European countries have: systems that photograph you ONLY IF YOU RUN THE LIGHT. Such a system only invades your privacy when you have sacrificed it by breaking the law. A police officer at the intersection is going to be staring into your car and seeing you make goofy gestures, sing along to the radio, argue with your spouse, pick your nose, etc., etc. no matter whether you break the law or not. DJRI hope these feelings make sense to you; I want to bring my view as DJR clearly as possible without sounding nuts. I understand your feelings, but I don't think they are justified by this situation. This is not surveillance camera technology (or
Re: [Mpls] traffic violations
OK, I think my scatter-shot ramblings obscured my central point in a lot of drivel. Let me restate it, because I think it was missed in your response to me (which had a bunch of good points). Cameras that ONLY TAKE PICTURES OF TRAFFIC OFFENDERS are a feasible and widely-used (elsewhere) technology and such cameras are LESS INTRUSIVE INTO DRIVERS' PRIVACY THAN OTHER MEANS OF RED-LIGHT VIOLATION ENFORCEMENT. These cameras don't take pictures of people going about their normal, law-abiding actions, so they are less intrusive than police officers staring at you, or always-on surveillance cameras, or any other means of red light enforcement that I can imagine. Unless one just objects to automated systems on some grounds other than privacy (e.g., they just give you the creeps), I think we ought to welcome this technology for its enforcement potential, because it is uncontaminated by human biases, etc. If you just don't like camera-based systems, that's your prerogative; or feel that there necessarily should be some human input into the detection process, I think you should welcome this method. Cheers, R -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Wenonah closing article in the Strib
Dan == Dan McGuire [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dan List Manager wrote: Appropros the recent list debate...and the story also covers the Northeast-Waite Park situation and North Star-Jordan Park. http://www.startribune.com/stories/1592/5191359.html David Brauer List manager Dan Dr. Erickson might benefit from a tour of the Keewaydin - Wenonah Dan neighborhood so that he could see just how many of those starter homes Dan are being expanded. It's not likely the census data he's reading Dan reflects the current reality. I could show him about fifty in the last Dan year alone within 12 blocks of Keewaydin - when we expanded our house Dan this year I needed to do some surveying of the neighborhood regarding Dan the variance issues involved. Dan And why do we need to have school board members challenging parents Dan who are just trying to get the best education possible for their kids? Just to give Dr. Erickson the benefit of the doubt, this challenge term has become a management cliche, with all kinds of leaders challenging their teams to excel or stuff like that. He may just have been trying to say, meet me halfway with a proposed solution to the problem here, or I have data that purports to show a shrinking enrollment here, show me something that contradicts it, and we can talk. I agree, though, the choice of words is unfortunate. Best, R -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Closures
I'd like to thank Annie Young and John Erwin for weighing in on this discussion, and explaining some of the decision factors. And for having the forthrightness to admit that the decision might have been a mistake. -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] wenonah/keewaydin and city schools (long)
Thanks to Dennis for weighing in with an insider's view about the school closings issue. I understand his frustration with the level of rumor- and conspiracy-mongering that's come along with this issue. But having been on the other side of the issue, I'd have to say that members of the Board simply can't expect people who are confronting an impending school closure to somehow assimilate all the institutional memory of the School Board (to take an example from the current controversy, the history of the East Area River Schools Task Force and the role therein of particular staffers). To the extent that such history is important, the Board must find some way to pass it on to their constituents (and we must try to avoid leaping to conclusions). Again, from the other side of the issue, I'd have to say that the Board (or perhaps its hired consultants) have been their own worst enemies. (I say this in the hopes of offering CONSTRUCTIVE criticism --- I hope I'm not just name-calling). I was involved in the last round of closing discussions, and the way they were conducted certainly helped foster conspiracy-mongering. First of all, there was an enormous rush to judgment. The first we heard about the proposed closing of our school was in late September, and that right on the heels of a story in the Southwest Journal that indicated that we were off the table. Then we were told that the entire discussion would be done in less than a month! I understand that there are statutory requirements about when such decisions must be finalized, but in this case, the time frame was just too short. If these decisions must be revisited, I would recommend giving them fourteen months, rather than two! Not ideal, I know, but it would be hard to say that the current arrangement was better. Especially considering that most people aren't seriously monitoring the school system over the summer. Then, after the initial rush, the consultants seemed to start flailing around, swapping in one new candidate after another (Emerson, Kenwood, etc.), all trying to get in under the finish line. That kind of thing creates an impression among the constituents that at best someone is rushing to an ill-considered decision, at worst that there is some hidden agenda. The consultants themselves were not confidence inspiring. E.g., they seemed to be proposing to close large locations and shove them into smaller locations in ill-considered ways. Having been at some public meetings, I was quite concerned that the consultants didn't seem familiar with the details of some of the physical plants that they were considering (e.g., Whittier school seemed far from adequate for some of their plans), and didn't have much educational savvy. On the other hand, I would say on their behalf that they were open to input from constituents, and gave the impression of conscientiously trying to do their best to come to a good outcome. In the future, though, I would suggest hiring consultants who are expert in facilitating community decision-making, instead of technical experts. Finally, there were some decision parameters that were not well-understood by the constituents (and possibly the consultants as well). E.g., quite late in the discussions, it seemed that the decisions were under quick revision, because they had been taken in ignorance of limitations imposed by teacher contract terms. In summary --- the Board must learn to build a much fatter pipe of information from Board members to constituents. For high-stakes decisions like the school closings, more community meetings are essential, and having consultants as cut-outs between the Board and constituents is a poor idea. The Board must also have realistic expectations of its constituents: most of us will NOT be tracking Board function on a day-to-day basis, and will not know history. We will be dipping in at key points when we become most concerned about some particular issue. At that point, the Board will be vulnerable to misrepresentations unless they preemptively engage. The Board should remember that there will be people unhappy with proposed decisions, and that the Board will not be happy with the outcome if they leave it to those people to frame the discussion in a vacuum of statements from the Board itself. -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Duplication / Inefficiency
Aaron == Aaron Klemz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Aaron I won't even address #4 (a la David Shove's post) Aaron since it is so clearly a poor argument. Practically Aaron every city except for Minneapolis in the nation does Aaron just fine with one police department. Suggesting the Aaron same for Minneapolis is not the same as advocating the Aaron centralization of all police functions in the state or Aaron federal government Actually, I think New York City has at least 3: Police, Traffic and Transit. At least they did the last time I checked. Don't even get me started on Washington, DC, which has Metro cops, capital police, secret service, etc., etc.! Aaron Uniquely suited Aaron Is crime lower in the Parks? Sure, but I can come up Aaron with a number of more parsimonious explanations for Aaron that than the inherent superiority of the Park Police. Aaron Such as: Aaron 1) There are no (or few) permanent residents of the Aaron Parks. Yes, but there are also tons of places where there is a lot less visibility into the park territory than there is on a normal city street. Every so often we get to hear a horrific story about someone being raped on one of the jogging paths, because they can't be seen. I don't even know how you would beging to assess the claim of different crime rates since, as Aaron points out, people don't live there, so there's bound to be less property crime, etc. Is it possible to frame this lower crime question in some way that would be clearly answerable? I'm not sure how one would do this. Aaron 2) Areas surrounding parks tend to be higher income Aaron and lower crime areas. Is claim #2 actually true? Sure, maybe around the three lakes in the SW, but in general? Aaron I can't really say with certainty that Scott Vreeland Aaron is wrong when he claims that the MPD has a Aaron paramilitary organization in contrast to the kinder, Aaron gentler proactive policing of the Park Police, but I Aaron think that smacks of overgeneralization. Like all Aaron police forces, the MPD has a variety of approaches and Aaron functions. The CCP/SAFE program is very different in Aaron function and purpose than the SWAT team, for example. Aaron There's nothing essential in the organization of the Aaron MPD that prevents a park unit or beat that doesn't Aaron adopt similar or identical approaches to what already Aaron exists. Such an enforcement approach could be Aaron preserved in a merged department. Aaron Dual Role Aaron A number of claims have been made, such as by Bob Fine Aaron in the 1/12/05 Southwest Journal, where he claims that Aaron the Park Police were the only agency capable of Aaron dealing with a gang problem at Armatage Park, since Aaron they ...went to homes in the area to investigate and Aaron handled it well. He then poses the following Aaron question: How can a merger with the city's Police Aaron Department keep our children as safe as the present Aaron Park Police system? Aaron I don't have definitive answers to this question, but Aaron the logic that underlies this implies that MPD is Aaron incapable of investigating crimes well, and in Aaron particular, that the unique dual role of the Park Aaron Police as school liaisons makes them uniquely suited Aaron to park enforcement. However, this arrangement is Aaron recent (2003); does this mean that the Park Police Aaron have only recently become well suited to address Aaron this problem through the dual role? Does that mean Aaron that previously the MPD was uniquely suited to Aaron conduct such an investigation? And am I wrong in Aaron assuming that the Armatage Park investigation that Mr. Aaron Fine speaks of predates the school liaison program? Aaron I have asserted earlier that many of the officers Aaron currently serving as school liaisons transferred from Aaron the MPD to continue as school liaisons after the Park Aaron Police assumed that role. I've been trying to track Aaron down a source on that claim, and have been unable to. Aaron Can anyone tell me if that is correct? If it is, it Aaron seems to undercut the logic of both the artificial Aaron division between the police forces (both of whom are Aaron represented by the same union) and the unique role of Aaron the Park Police created by their dual role. Aaron Resource siphoning Aaron This seems to me to be the most important argument Aaron made by advocates of preserving the Park Police as an Aaron independent entity. Aaron Certainly the independence of the Park Police Aaron preserves the MPRB's ability to direct enforcement Aaron resources to maximize park safety. But other cities Aaron without independent Park Police, such as St. Paul, Aaron preserve park safety while maintaining a
[Mpls] Minnegasco rate increase?
MS == Mark Snyder [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: MS Hi all, MS I've seen a few people make comments about the forthcoming MS rate increase that has been proposed by Minnegasco. MS While I understand that this will result in higher gas bills for some MS residential folks, I think the impact has been overstated a bit. MS Here's a summary of what's being proposed, courtesy of MS Minnegasco's web site: MS http://mn.centerpointenergy.com/ratecase/factsheet.asp [...snip...] MS Now, in the comments I've seen about this, it seems there is a MS lot of focus on the increase in the Basic Charge with little MS notice of the decrease in the Delivery Charge. [...snip...] One concern I have with the new rate structure is that it will tend to discourage natural gas conservation. Essentially, moving costs to the delivery charge means turning more of the natural gas bill into a fixed cost. If this is done enough, then it's going to tend to encourage consumers to abuse the resource, for which they are going to pay, whether they use it or not. E.g., if you're going to be paying for a hunk of natural gas in the summer *anyway*, why not take a bunch of nice long, hot baths. The problem with this is that natural gas demand is continuing to rise, as we try to clean up the air by replacing coal-fired plants with gas-fired. So why not a price structure that encourages conservation? Also, there's simple self-interest. I'm sure that this will get squawks from the pro-business crew, but why the heck shouldn't consumers try to fight attempts to shift costs from businesses to consumers? We've heard a lot of complaints about that from the pro-business crew, but I haven't heard of any cases, where they just said, yeah, it's fair for us to bear a higher percentage of the your choice here cost burden. Why is it somehow evil for individual citizens to fight for their own interests in the political realm, but laudable when business owners do? -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Duplication of Services: (was Independent Park Board)
It's perhaps worth pointing out around now that this entire country's governmental system is based on criteria other than avoid duplicating services. The whole notion of checks and balances inherently forces us to duplicate services. After all, to pick a real strawman, we could just have the executive branch arrest you, sentence you, and throw you in jail. Similarly, the founders of our country specifically chose to create an inefficient duplication in our representative body. The inefficiency of adding the Senate to the House was considered to be a *feature* of the system, not a bug. The founders WANTED the system to be inefficient, to avoid having an overly efficient system that could rush to a dumb decision. So I'm with the people who are saying that a FEATURE of the independent park board is that it makes it hard for the city to rush to a short-term expedient decision to toss away our lovely parks, just to pay off our pension obligations or what-have-you. Now, this doesn't mean that we mightn't want to consolidate some of the organizations that perform Park Board work (Park police, public works department, etc.), as Aaron Klemz has suggested. But for decision-making, let's keep the inefficiency, thank you very much! Best, R -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud
ms == mike skoglund [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ms I am really confused about this. ms See, this is what I don't get -- he had already been granted ms asylum by CANADA in 1991, so apparently he'd already been out ms of danger for seven years when he made these misstatements on ms his U.S. Immigration papers. If he'd already been granted ms asylum in a safe place, why would he lie? So he could attend ms college in Memphis? Or was something threatening his Canadian ms status? I'm having a hard time connecting the dots. OK, the following is from Omar's lawyer, so take it with a grain of salt. He alleges that the form that is given out by the Immigration Service is VERY confusing and hard to fill out correctly. Having tried to fill out a 1040 once myself, I find this easy to believe. Even with the best of intentions, I was left with a queasy feeling that I might be answering wrong so I tossed in the towel, and paid someone else to do it for me, since I didn't want to be looking at jail time! There are certainly government forms that I find hard to understand and fill out, and I was born here! The lawyer also claimed that asylum is not a word that is used by the Canadian government: Erlinder pointed to terminology confusion: In 1991, when Jamal was 16, he was granted 'convention refugee' status in Canada, and the 1998 questions asked about `asylum,' which Canada doesn't grant. http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5176421.html I don't claim to understand the issues well, myself, nor do I even know the details of the charges, so I may be talking through my hat. Best, R -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Leaf Blowers
I don't think that this proposed ordinance is as dumb as Jason claims. If I understand his argument correctly, the ordinance is dumb because it should REALLY be addressing either 1. noise pollution or 2. air pollution or 3. both He proposes as a reductio ad absurdum for #2 that we have an ordinance banning petroleum fueled internal combustion engines. This is rhetorical overkill and just plain silly; it's like saying we should either ban all boats on Lake Calhoun, or allow supertankers. The fact is that internal combustion engines differ wildly on how they pollute. Small hand-held devices like leaf blowers almost universally use two-stroke engines, which spew a lot of uncombusted and partially combused gasoline and oil smoke into the air, especially if they're not kept well-tuned. These small devices simply can't afford the power and weight overhead to clean their exhaust the way, for example, a car can. The more of these we can get rid of, the happier we'll be. As for why we should ban leaf blowers and not gas lawn mowers, well, politics is the art of the possible. Once one of these devices gets its foot in the door, you can never get rid of it. Let's try to stop this one now. A little raking won't kill us. Now, as for #1, noise pollution, I can think of an easy, strong, feasibility argument for the ordinance. We simply cannot afford to start sending out squad cars with their own decibel meters, much less keep them all adjusted and calibrated (along the lines of radar guns), much less have them cross-examined in court. The question is this person using a leaf-blower? or is this person using a leaf blower outside permitted hours of operation? is a slam-dunk to answer. is this person producing more than X decibels, measured at a distance of not less than Y feet is a LOT harder to answer, and to deal with in the courts. The question of enforcement feasibility makes this ordinance sound a lot less dumb to me than others have claimed. Best, Robert -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Occam's Razor
MA == Michael Atherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: MA Jason Goray wrote: Occam's Razor - the simplest explanation is mostly likely the correct one. Not! Occam's Razor suggests that an equally accurate, but simpler explanation is preferable to a more verbose one. Occam's Razor infers both statements: http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/OCCAMRAZ.html MA I think that you've misread the definition. There's MA nothing in formal logic (which the definition is based on) MA that implies that a shorter definition is more likely MA to be correct than a longer one. Perhaps you can MA quote the particular part of the reference that supports MA your conclusion? Ockham's razor is really a heuristic. The closest I could find to an exact citation is the following: Ockham's Razor is the principle proposed by William of Ockham in the fourteenth century: ``Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate'', which translates as ``entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily''. It's not exactly right to say that this is based on formal logic in any sense that we would understand that term today. Today formal logic is a branch of mathematics, and mostly concerned with the syntax of deductively correct arguments (i.e., arguments that can be determined to be correct on the basis of form, without attending to their meaning). Formal logic in the fourteenth century was a very different affair! Actually, I say this is a heuristic because it has been generally found that the simpler argument IS more likely to be correct. You would have to ask a philosopher of science to explain why (and I'm sure you'd only get MORE questions than you started with, and no new answers if you did). I think a canonical example of Ockham's razor would be the preference for sun-centered models of the solar system over the earth-centered one. A sign of difficulty in the earth-centered model, by the time it tried to assimilate telescopic observations, is that it required the theory to be inelegant, and feature all kinds of excess entities such as retrograde motion, and epicycles, to explain things that were much more simply explained by elliptical movement around the sun. My handy web source (http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node10.html) offers the following additional example: Consider form example the following two theories aimed at describing the motions of the planets around the sun * The planets move around the sun in ellipses because there is a force between any of them and the sun which decreases as the square of the distance. * The planets move around the sun in ellipses because there is a force between any of them and the sun which decreases as the square of the distance. This force is generated by the will of some powerful aliens. Since the force between the planets and the sun determines the motion of the former and both theories posit the same type of force, the predicted motion of the planets will be identical for both theories. the second theory, however, has additional baggage (the will of the aliens) which is unnecessary for the description of the system. Note that my presentation of Occam's razor differs some from his (mine's a little stronger). Sorry to take us so far off topic, but I majored in philosophy and now work with logic, so you tripped my switch with that query -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] two unconventional transportation ideas
These are interesting proposals by Mike. Here are a couple of potential snags, though, that would have to be worked out: MJ == Mike Jensvold [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: MJ Deregulate Taxis (at least partially). People shouldn't have MJ to pay $4 to go half a mile to the grocery store. I think you would find that taxi regulation is responsible for coverage as well as price support. In exchange for the city allowing taxi companies to operate, the city forces the taxi companies to cover neighborhoods that they would otherwise shun because they are dangerous, and because they experience a lot of passengers skipping out on the fare. As anyone who's read the Star-Tribune over the past years will know, it can be very dangerous driving a cab in Minneapolis. One snag with deregulation is that it is very likely to strip these neighborhoods of their cab service. OTOH, it might bring in gypsy cabs that would be willing to take the risks attendant on serving those regions. The other snag is that a lot of the cabs I've ridden in ALREADY seem plenty ill-maintained and dangerous (I have often felt the tell tale vibrations of failing brake pads on rides home from the airport)! I can't imagine this not getting worse with deregulation. Unfortunately, buying cab service is not a place where the free market will operate well: as a consumer, I just have no way of discriminating betweeen cab service providers based on safety or service. I can't build up enough information. I'd rather have them regulated for safety and driver qualifications. The market also operates poorly in the case of airport cabs, where out-of-towners have no way to determine what is a reasonable fare for a particular journey, nor can they solicit bids from multiple suppliers. In a deregulated taxi system they would be likely to experience erratic service, outrageously high fares, and possibly assault and robbery. My suggestion would be to try to fine-tune the current regulatory scheme to get a better trade-off between consumer and supplier interests, instead of junking it altogether. MJ Do away with school buses and integrate school transportation MJ into metro transit. I think that Mike may well have identified a real problem here. School bus operations must be hideously expensive for the schools, and I'd be interested to know whether the Minneapolis Schools are able to operate them efficiently. Anyone know how to find out what's the average load on a Minneapolis school bus? I'd be inclined to suggest reducing school choice and emphasizing neighborhood schools over integration with Metro Transit, though. I wait for small children on school buses (or used to, anyway, topic for another message). The school bus driver must do things a normal bus driver need not. For example, my daughter was 50 minutes late one day when the school held all the buses to address a disciplinary issue[1]. Something like this could wreak absolute havoc with the city bus system. Another example: the bus driver should make sure that kids cross the streets safely, and ideally, that very small kids (high 5 program kids are only 4-5 years old) are met at the bus stop. This can mean that getting through a bus stop takes a very long time. Again, probably not acceptable for commuters. Finally, the bus driver must handle disciplinary issues that could cause delay and annoyance for commuters. This idea might work better for high school kids than elementary school ones, although my final point still applies... Footnotes: [1] This was actually the right thing for the school to do --- the school has very good discipline, and I think that this is at least partly because they react immediately, rather than waiting until problems get out of hand. -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Minneapolis pensions
I want to come to Rep. Kahn's defense a little bit here. To the best of my understanding, what she has said is that the MPRA has this city over a barrel, and that the city is going to have to offer them something in exchange for changes in the pension agreement that would help us get out from under this mountain of debt. If I understand her remarks, she is criticizing Mayor Rybak and the city council for not holding their noses and making the agreement with the MPRA. Honestly, I have a lot of sympathy both for people being angry that the MPRA is going to have to be bought out, and for people not wanting to have to explain to their constituents why they gave yet more money to MPRA plan participants, so that they profited with bonuses during a market uptick and also had to be bought out when the plan did badly. I can see why the Mayor would think that the plan participants might not be exactly being team players, but if they have us in a headlock, there may not be much we can do... On the other hand, I think we can also understand Rep. Kahn's position. I don't think it's entirely fair to say that she wants to take away a City Council tool just because she disagrees with it. What she is saying is that it's a desperate measure to pay pension obligations with bonds, since that is paying recurring expenses with non-recurring revenue. Since this is such a fiscally risky maneuver, she is arguing not that the city council should be forbidden from doing it, just that it should be able to do it only with the explicit consent of the voters. There have been a lot of hot words about this on all sides. To the (perhaps limited) extent that we on the list can help, maybe we can talk things through with an eye to a compromise solution and provide citizen cover if the only solution involves doing something unpalatable. -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Smoking Ban fallout
[I was going to let this obvious flame-bait go, but couldn't help myself...] Victoria == Victoria Heller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Victoria I hope several lawsuits are filed against the City on Victoria the basis of an illegal taking. This is a private Victoria property rights issue, and if the government prevents Victoria the use of one's property, the owner is entitled to Victoria just compensation. See Article V, U. S. Constitution. Victoria There is also a good equal protection argument to be Victoria made in Court. No, this is not an illegal taking, any more than any other health regulation. Consider the following hypothetical: imagine a city where there have been no health regulations. There are many local restaurants, run by small business people that do not contain sinks or toilets. Employees in those restaurants prepare food with dirty hands; cholera rages. Now we pass a health ordinance. Is this an illegal taking? No, because the city has a pressing interest (I forget the exact legal jargon term here) in protecting the health of its population, and that interest trumps the property rights of the owner. For a second example, consider another establishment in this plumbing-challenged city, which would like to offer a trench in its backyard into which its clients can dump their fecal matter, and dead relatives. Again, the property rights are trumped by public health interest. Ms. Heller's position here is one of a very, very radical property rights person, and is well outside the mainstream of US jurisprudence, or those in most of the developed world. If you agree with Ms. Heller and are looking for a location where people actually understand [Ms. Heller's idea of] America's founding principles I'd suggest El Salvador vintage 1985... There are many restrictions on how we engage in business in society, and these do not constitute illegal takings. For that matter, the second example I offered above also extends to your homestead property. Again, the property right is not all-powerful, and on occasion must defer to the rights of neighbors (or, in the case of the smoking ban, the rights of employees). -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Forgotten Municipal Diamonds in the Rough: Re: [Mpls] RE: Should the Mpls Schools be operating a radio station at all?
dyna == dyna [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: dyna Our School Board seems afflicted with this municipal dyna myopia too- are they even aware that they own a radio dyna station that blankets the metro area and beyond with dyna it's signal? Do they realize that they have the dyna perfect PR tool to improve Minneapolis' schools dyna troubled image? From there bunker on Broadway, does dyna our school board realize they have the perfect adult dyna education delivery device? Have they even considered dyna the synergies of using KBEM's stronger signal to carry dyna KFAI's programming to a wider audience? dyna I doubt it. dyna In their scramble for solvency our School Board will dyna probably put KBEM up for auction. The high bidder will dyna probably not be KFAI or even MPR, but a fundamentalist dyna religious broadcaster spewing hate from a transmitter dyna we citizens paid for... somehow that's not the values dyna Minneapolis citizens voted for. Don't give up hope! The end of the year is a perfect time to send Jazz 88 a check to help them overcome the loss of their state funding! Best to all, Robert -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] RE: Should the Mpls Schools be operating a radio station at all
RM == Ray Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: RM What benefit does a jazz station have for the vast majority of RM Minneapolis students. I would guess extremely few listen to RM jazz. One problem with this argument is that it can easily be extended to paintings, theater, or even books. Most students prefer to watch TV, after all... We could have them read John Grisham, instead of Shakespeare, too... A second problem is that we could extend it to remove ALL areas of excellence in our schools. I recall seeing this in a company I once worked for --- they decided to do a bunch of benchmarking, and then carefully removed every area of excellence they could find, reducing themselves to best practices that they had defined as synonymous with mediocrity. Yes, the schools might be able to sell the radio station spectrum space. The Park Board could certainly easily sell our city lakefront to developers, too. Where does this stop? -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Sales Tax Increase for Police
A bunch of people have said that they don't like the additional sales tax for two reasons: 1. It will drive more shopping out of the city and 2. It's another regressive tax. #2 seems like a real concern, but the city may have been boxed into this --- hasn't the state taken away a lot of our taxation powers? We're going to have to go begging to the legislature for the right to do even this, and they're almost certainly NOT going to let us do this on property tax, which is the only halfway progressive (in the sense of you have more, you pay more) alternative. I wonder if #1 is a real concern. I'm a big city booster, but I already do all of my big box and department store shopping outside the city. I'm sorry, I want to boost the city's revenue, but I *don't* particularly want to pay a pound of flesh to some parking lot owner. Is it just me, or doesn't Mpls seem to have a lot less public, city-owned parking than comparable-sized cities? This means that the extra tax burden will be borne mostly by people who are working downtown (e.g., at the Target office bldg), and for whom the added convenience will overwhelm the added cost; or by people who have no alternatives, bringing us back to point #1... -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
re:[mpls] The Independent Park Board protects the urban nirvana
EW == Elizabeth Wielinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: EW Joan Berthiaume and Ted Wirth wrote... The independence of the Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board is the reason they can protect these beautiful public spaces from the priorities of city business. It is our apathy for our legacy of open space and our lack of understanding for the governance necessary to protect it, that puts our park system at risk. EW Minneapolis is lucky to have an independent board. It keeps our EW parks from becoming just a small easily cut item in a mayors budget. EW It is why our parks are rated so highly. But an independent board is EW only as good as the people serving on it. EWI was recently at a meeting where the park district endorsement was EW almost pooh-poohed as being unimportant and that no one really cares EW who runs for those seats. EW I think this is the type of apathy that leads to park EW leadership that can play the role of developer instead of EW protecting our parks and green spaces. It could also lead to EW the board being dissolved and the parks becoming just a low EW priority in a city budget straining to meet police and fire EW needs. If we elect people who will shepherd our parks in the EW correct direction for the long term, involve the citizens in EW the process and do it in a financially prudent manner we will EW retain not only our high national standing but will keep the EW parks accessible to all. I agree: We have met the enemy and he (or she) is us. If we watch the Park Board and hold them accountable, then we will be far better off than if we dissolve it and let the money be sapped away into the usual desperate struggle to pay the bills. But if the city electorate doesn't pay attention... -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: Fwd: Re: [Mpls] Green Party vs DFL, or fusion, and Proportional Rep.
Aaron == Aaron Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Aaron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think thatthere are at least three more reasons to be opposed to PR: 1. In Minneapolis, people who live together tend to have the same concerns, so representing them regionally makes sense. People who live near Calhoun Square care about parking; people who live near the lakes want them to stay nice. Other people have different issues. People in some parts of the city are going to be front-and-center worried about crime. Others are more likely to be harmed by automobiles and think traffic enforcement is more important, etc. Aaron Sure, a lot of my neighbors share the same concerns, and Aaron those concerns vary from NEIGHBORHOOD to neighborhood. But Aaron just because folks share concerns does NOT mean that they Aaron share the same SOLUTIONS to those concerns. Well, but some solutions have to win, and some have to lose, having a big stew of deadlocked solution candidates is one of my primary reasons for not wanting to see PR. That's Aaron determined by ideology, education, life experience and Aaron often, political parties. Again, I want to state that NOT Aaron ONE of my elected officials, with the exception of my Aaron neighborhood organization representatives, actually live in Aaron my neighborhood (that we all so diligently sign with our Aaron names with at the end of every posting). That being said, Aaron I feel Samuels, my current CM as of now, does represent Aaron more of my values than the other choice I had after the Aaron primaries. The nice Republicans who live right next door Aaron to me feel that Valdis Rosenthal, who ran for that very CM Aaron seat, would have represented their values better. They Aaron became dis-engaged after the primaries, when we (Ward 3) Aaron were left to choose from two DFL-ers. PR allows SOLUTIONS Aaron to SHARED concerns to seriously be brought forward due to Aaron MORE representation. How is this a bad thing? It's a bad thing if more representation leads to gridlock, or more representation leads to candidates who answer only to very small groups, and just sell their votes (viz the example of small religious parties in Israel that I cited in my email). At the end of the day PR doesn't change the fact that some people are going to see their solutions adopted, and some will see them not adopted. 2. [I'm not so sure I know how I feel about this one] Proportional representation, like at-large elections, favors people who turn out for elections, over those who sit at home. Some people have fussed about this in connection with at-large elections. On the one hand, I think that this leaves some people unrepresented. On the other hand, if you're just sitting home and watching TV, you're gonna be unrepresented anyway --- you'll just have someone who is labeled as your representative, but since they have no way of knowing what you want them to do, how does this benefit you? Aaron Yes, PR favors those who turn out for elections (a good Aaron thing). I'm inclined to agree with you, but since I'm always a skeptic, let's consider some reasons why this might not be a good thing: 1. I've read a lot of complaining on this list about how the at-large elections in this city, for example for school board, favor those evil people in Southwest (which I suppose includes me). The people who are expressing those complaints presumably don't feel that favoring those who turn out for elections. Similarly, we've heard some complaints about tax inequity, and the claim has been made that renters carry too much of the city's tax burden. Why does this happen? They don't vote as much as homeowners! Or, possibly, they vote, but aren't sophisticated enough to realize that their landlords are being taxed at a very high rate and this translates to higher rents 2. At the expense of bending the rules of the list a little, consider how this plays out on a national scale. A good thing about this country is that our elderly are no longer so likely to die in poverty. A bad thing is that no one even seems to seriously consider that young families might be having a health-care crisis --- all we hear is about how the elderly ought to have prescription drug coverage. Well, what about the drug needs of a working poor family's children? The elderly vote, and they vote their self-interest. The working poor? Not so much... I'm inclined to think that no democracy can fix the problem of people not voting that well. But geographically-based voting does provide a limited counterweight. Aaron But even better than this, PR leads to MORE voter Aaron participation. This is an empirical claim that you're
Fwd: Re: [Mpls] Green Party vs DFL, or fusion, and Proportional Rep.
Tamir makes some excellent points about the problem of proportional representation driving out non-party-aligned candidates. I think that there are at least three more reasons to be opposed to PR: 1. In Minneapolis, people who live together tend to have the same concerns, so representing them regionally makes sense. People who live near Calhoun Square care about parking; people who live near the lakes want them to stay nice. Other people have different issues. People in some parts of the city are going to be front-and-center worried about crime. Others are more likely to be harmed by automobiles and think traffic enforcement is more important, etc. 2. [I'm not so sure I know how I feel about this one] Proportional representation, like at-large elections, favors people who turn out for elections, over those who sit at home. Some people have fussed about this in connection with at-large elections. On the one hand, I think that this leaves some people unrepresented. On the other hand, if you're just sitting home and watching TV, you're gonna be unrepresented anyway --- you'll just have someone who is labeled as your representative, but since they have no way of knowing what you want them to do, how does this benefit you? 3. Proportional representation leads to gridlock, grotesque allocations of pork, etc. No doubt this will be controversial. However, I encourage you to consider, for example, politics in Israel, where religious nutters get vast quantities of national dollars, and paralyze vital policy issues, because they can make or break coalitions. No thank you! The more I see of many-party democracy, the more I think two-party isn't so bad... I wouldn't mind seeing a couple of additional parties pop up with some representation, but if we're going to end up with 10 or 12, I'd rather have 2. Cheers, R -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] MnDOT to end KBEM partnership - 88.5 traffic radio ending next March
Liz == Elizabeth Wielinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: LizThis is a darn shame. KBEM is the only source of local bluegrass Liz programming (Sat am 8-noon). It is a small market to be sure, but Liz still a market. I guess it is time to buy that satellite radio. NOOO! Don't do that! KBEM is listener-supported. Please, send them a little bit of the cost of a satellite radio, and keep them on the air. I know I'm going to! Their jazz and bluegrass is great! Robert -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] school finance Edmonton style
Dan == Dan McGuire [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dan http://www.startribune.com/stories/1405/5131594.html I am Dan skeptical of Pawlenty's plan to copy Edmonton. They have a Dan very different system and population - parochial schools get Dan public funding in Canada. He mentioned thinking sports Dan based, all girls schools and Christian principled schools Dan were fabulous. How would that work in MPLS? Dan I suppose we could have avoided a lot of the hand wringing of the Dan last year if schools had control of 92% of their budgets, Dan that is assuming they also had control over enrollments. Dan Dan McGuire Dan Ericsson I'm inclined to agree with Dan on this one. I read over the Star-Tribune article, and a couple of points leaped out at me. The first is that Edmonton has a very homogenous school-age population. The second was the mixture of church and state that Dan pointed out. The third was a little sentence dropped in there to the effect that Edmonton hasn't seen that much of a testable effect from these changes. Given that Edmonton may be seized upon as a paradigm for Minnesota schools, I'd love to see a feature-length story about the school system, especially one that's informed by an interest in promising new techniques, but that has a healthy dose of skepticism about the latest Big Thing, too. Steve Brandt --- any chance of this? On the one hand, I've been very impressed with the people I see doing the educating in our local school (and, actually, in the other 6 or 7 that I toured before our oldest went in), and I think anything that we can do to empower them to follow their best judgment will be good. I know that testing isn't perfect, but I'm also interested in having some outcome measures to help us evaluate our schools. It's almost a cliche now to belly-ache about the fact that students have to learn to the tests and teachers have to teach to them. But that really doesn't seem so poisonous to me. Taking tests is a pretty darn valuable skill in our society, and I can't imagine it getting to be less valuable in the foreseeable future. [OK, it's not perfect, but it doesn't seem like a disaster when stacked up against AIDS, homelessness, or any of the things we might get really exercised about, including the way our schools are failing many of our children.] That's good. Here are some reasons why we might be skeptical: 1. this sounds like another example of someone (in this case Pawlenty) grabbing after yet another silver bullet to stop the education crisis. I suspect if there were a silver bullet out there, it would have been found by now. My guess is that there isn't going to be any magical solution, just hard work, and a constant struggle to make schools work. 2. I further suspect that Pawlenty is grabbing up this silver bullet as a substitute for spending the money that needs to be spent. At best it's a well-meaning distraction from our ongoing fiscal crisis. At worst, it's a deceitful distraction. When someone tells you they have a magical solution to the education crisis, I think you should react the same way as you would if someone told you that they had a sure-fire way to beat the stock market... 3. I'm worried about these approaches that penalize schools that are failing. OK, penalize the principal, boot the management. But if you penalize the school, you penalize its community, just adding to its victimization. Don't break it further! Fix it! 4. We're not good at measuring the performance of schools serving radically different populations. Consider, by analogy, trying to measure the performance of a hospital. Would you expect the Mayo clinic to have a low death rate? Well, no. They would be taking on the most challenging cases, and they wouldn't be doing as well as a hospital that just does a zillion minor surgeries and childbirths (although you might want to go to that second hospital, instead of Mayo, for your delivery). Our measuring instruments for education just aren't good enough to correct for these external factors. Now, I'm not saying that's an argument for not testing --- you do want to know how well the kids are doing. But you ought to think hard before you beat a school in Phillips for getting worse test scores than one in Eagen... 5. Tight local control of schools is a mantra of both left and right in this country (on the left it's communitarianism, and on the right, there's a lot of talk about market-based approaches). Is this maybe nutty? Where are there schools that work well? Europe and Asia. There schools are run nationally, there's no emphasis at all on market-based forces, and they tend to be run in standardized ways in accordance with national bureaucracies. [But, in favor of the Edmonton method, elsewhere in the world,
[Mpls] Property taxes, the poor and the rich
Gary == Gary Hoover [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gary Can city government effectively address these issues without Gary careful partnership with other metro suburbs, counties, and Gary the state? If we compete and try to externalize the costs Gary onto each other, who benefits, and who suffers? Gary I think we can do better than to pin all of our economic Gary problems on the city or on the property tax. I just wanted to say hear, hear! to this. I think the answer to Gary's first question is no. The immediate follow-up question is, how do we create this careful partnership in a time when the city and inner-ring suburbs are so different in values from the outer-ring/exurbs, and the state legislature is so riven with faction? Have a good weekend, everyone! R -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Property taxes, the poor and the rich in Minneapolis
WM == wizardmarks [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: WM Jeff Rosenberg wrote: What I find most interesting about this, and what I'd like to question, is the underlying assumption behind these statements. Specifically, that Minneapolis has an obligation to the poor and to create affordable housing. [...snip...] WM However, it is greatly to the city's advantage to have a WM stable house with people who are not into causing mischief or WM committing crimes against either people or things, who will do WM a lot of the work a city needs doing--driving buses, being WM janitors, secretaries, nurses aides, factory workers. I bought WM an old house, built 1912, deserted by all and sundry, but one WM which could easily work well for another 75 years, making it WM affordable housing. Granted, but what you don't address is the point that Jeff and I were both trying to make: why should Minneapolis pay all the cost to gain these advantages, with no share being assessed to the people who buy McMansions way out in the exurbs? More to the point, how can Minneapolis afford to pay all the social costs as the high end of its tax base moves out to said McMansions? One way, of course, is to spend money to try to lure people who would pay lots of property taxes OUT of McMansions and into expensive city properties. We've heard a lot of people slagging this on the list, but it seems entirely reasonable. Without people who can afford to pay high taxes, how can Minneapolis continue to provide services? WM When Lake St. is back together and operating well (this could WM take another 10 years or so), maybe it will be time to WM possibly knock down these 10 or so homes and build something WM else. (I wish them luck pulling this puppy down--it's built of WM concrete and the basement walls are 18 thick. If there is WM ever an earthquake of the magnitude of the 1806 San Francisco WM quake along this end of the New Madrid Fault Line, we are WM ready to withstand it!) I don't mean to be a Party Pooper, but if you read the 1930s vintage WPA guide to Minneapolis, the picture it paints of Lake Street isn't all that different from the one you've painted in your emails. WM While I do not think the city owes it to me to build WM affordable housing, I do think they owe it to me to at least WM keep old housing affordable through the tax structure and WM assessment structure. I agree! I don't want to see low income people booted out, I don't want to see the elderly taxed out of their homes, etc. Peter Vervang raises some similar issues: PV D. Some people may say that what goes around, comes around and PVthat these suburbs are just getting theirs for what they PVdid to us over the past 40-50 years. That isn't how it PVworks, we are a regional economy and our quality of life is PVlinked to each other, if they suffer, we suffer and vice a PVversa. This isn't to say that suburbs shouldn't have PVaffordable housing, they should. But we shouldn't be PVforcing people to leave Minneapolis, we should be placing PVmore value on our current residents. This should be a PVlocal, state and federal priority, to provide a decent PVhousing structure for all people, and giving people a PVchoice about how and where they want to live, whether that PVbe a city, suburb or rural area. Right now there is only PVone real option for the working poor, they have to move to PVthe suburbs, this limitis both employers and employees in PVtheir economic options, it limits our ability to make PVcreative and vibrant communites of varied cultures. If we PVignore the issue of poverty and development, and restrict PVtheir economic and lifestyle choices, we will pay for it in PVbroken nieghborhoods and urban blight and the generic PVsameness of mini-storage and cheap strip malls. We are the PVrichest nation on earth, we are in one of the richer cities PVin a richer state in the richest nation. Lack of resources PVis a poor excuse for this situation. I believe this is a PVproblem because the poor, minorities and immigrants aren't PVa priority. Everyone is focused on tax base, and generic PVeconomic development and they don't think much about PVsupporting our basic culture and our fundamental values PVwith our tax dollars. I believe our culture and values are PVwhat make our tax base possible in the first place, it is PVwhat makes living in a city and our country worthwhile. This is a great statement of the problem, but it doesn't provide any steps towards a solution. I'd argue that your implicitly proposed solution, which seems to be to have the city spend a ton of money subsidizing housing, will simply
Re: [Mpls] Property taxes for homestead property
Rick == Rick Mons [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Rick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem is that the suburbs and exurbs are already dumping their social problems into the cities for us to pay for. Rick It's not clear to me how suburbs dump their social problems Rick into the cities for (city taxpayers) to pay for. Can you Rick provide some examples? Rick I wholly support the fact that the vast majority of social Rick services are funded via state and county funds rather than Rick municipal funds since it amortizes those societal costs Rick across a broader spectrum og population. I would also agree Rick that there are disproportionately more impoverished who live Rick in the cities than the suburbs (but disagree when others Rick attribute this to a conscious conspiratorial set of Rick actions). Rick This is the first I've read that the suburbs have social Rick problems that are somehow transferred to the cities ... or Rick p'haps you misspoke (er, mistyped). I can see that my rhetoric ran out ahead of me. No, I did not mean to imply a conscious conspiratorial set of actions! But the suburbs, and even more the exurbs, are places where there is little or no affordable housing, little or no public transit, and (to a somewhat lesser extent) few resources to support people with severe chronic illnesses (both physical and psychological). Poor people simply can't live in the suburbs (with rare exceptions)! Without cars it's impossible to get around (a large proportion of recent developments don't even include sidewalks, much less bus access). This isn't really debatable --- all you have to do to confirm this is to read business section articles about the hiring problems of big-box retailers. Indeed, getting away from the poor is a lot of the reason why people move out (taxation, schooling, and affordable housing for the middle class being others). But, it's clear that this leaves the cities as concentrating points for poverty, illness, and immigration. To the extent that there's a base rate of, just to take one example, severe chronic schizophrenia, over the population as a whole, that burden is shifted from the suburbs and exurbs onto the cities. Likewise, to the extent that our society benefits from the absorption of immigrants (and I don't know who the heck else is going to foot the bill for the upcoming bulge of retirements), that cost is being borne by the cities. Now, honestly, I think that's probably a good thing. A lot of these problems couldn't be addressed well in rural, exurban, or even suburban communities. They don't have the facilities, and it probably wouldn't take the entitlements of many severely disabled students to wipe out the budget of a rural school system. How would small communities deal with each having, say, two Hmong-speaking children, two Somali-speaking children, and five Spanish-speaking children? But our governmental structures don't actually encourage a sharing of revenue to offset the sharing of burdens. As a city-dweller, I am, of course, partial. But I don't think suburban- or exurbanites would benefit much, either, if we manage to turn Minneapolis-St. Paul into another Detroit. No offense to suburbanites intended! Robert -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Property taxes for homestead property must INCREASE [Really CenterPoint price increase]
MN == Michael Hohmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: MN Dorothy J. TItus states, in part... ...And now Center Point Energy proposes a gas rate hike that will raise residential gas costs by 4% while raising business costs by only 1%. And this comes on top of gas prices that are reported to be between 30-50% higher than last year. MN The lower industrial rates for gas are for 'interruptible MN service' customers that have dual-fuel capability. They get a MN low rate when plenty of gas and pipe capacity is available, MN and get shut-off when residential customers require all they MN can get, in really cold weather. The industrial customers MN have oil-burning and/or coal capability, for when the gas MN supplier curtails their 'interruptible' gas supplies. Some MN industrial customers may have a high-priority gas need and MN purchase 'firm' supplies, paying a much higher price. And the MN residential 'firm' customers pay for that level of service MN too-- they aren't ever curtailed. MN The natural gas itself is a commodity and the cost flows MN through directly to the customers... its the MN fixed-distribution costs that vary by customer class, and MN according to the level of service provided (firm or MN interruptible). It's the distribution costs that would be MN increased by Center Point-- their operating costs. The MN commodity cost of natural gas has been rising in recent years MN due to increased demand and tighter supplies... just like oil MN costs, gasoline and diesel. From reading the stuff CenterPoint has sent out, I wasn't so sure about this. They recoup their costs through a mixture of fixed price + per-therm charges. I don't think that it's entirely obvious to decide which is which. It may seem that way, but accounting is at least as complex as statistics, and we all know what they say about THAT branch of mathematics! Also, note that curtailable services aren't goign to be cheaper PER SE than firm --- indeed they must involve some logic that is not going to be free, and so must be at least as expensive as the kind of simple flow-through that's all you need for firm delivery. The savings on curtailable supply is NOT in the delivery cost, it's in being able to manage the commodity cost. Another concern I have about this is that the revision in pricing will tend to deter conservation (since a higher proportion of the price will be paid whether one uses the commodity or not). Is that really a policy we want right now? Especially when the nation as a whole is trying to clean up the atmosphere by substituting more and more natural gas for coal? Also, I fear that we'll all REALLY take it in the neck after CenterPoint has moved more of its charges into fixed fees, and then the per-therm rate skyrockets again -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Property taxes for homestead property
Seems like we've got two strands of outrage going on simultaneously: taxpayers, particularly business owners, complaining about how much city waste there is; and others complaining that the city is not doing enough to get services to the poor. Maybe the fact that there's outrage from both sides reveals an attempt to find a middle path. One issue that we should tease out from the outrage is how much of what people see as waste is actually money that could be used for some other purpose. Dan is outraged by the car-sharing experiment. But does the money going into this project take away from something else? Or does it come from some special source, that either doesn't cost city $$$ or radically leverages city $$$ with outside $$$. In the latter case, even if it costs city dollars, it may be a net win (even if you don't like it), because the net inflow gets spent here. And some of the issue is that we have to combine our concerns with those of others. Dan's angry because of the libraries, which he doesn't use, because he buys books. I hardly ever drive, so I could be seething about the money we pay to take care of the roads. And everyone who no longer has kids in school should object to that... If you take this to its logical conclusion, we should all go off and live in the outback and do everything for ourselves. What's the criterion for distinguishing between a reasonable public expenditure and an unreasonable one? My guess is that most of us think schools and libraries are ok. Not that I'm unsympathetic to Dan --- I'm appalled by the rise in my property taxes. But a lot of it is a shift in columns, as far as I can tell. The state's cut my taxes, and stopped giving money to the city, so the city raises my taxes. As for services for the poor (particularly housing), this seems like a tough tightrope to walk. The problem is that the suburbs and exurbs are already dumping their social problems into the cities for us to pay for. If we invite more and more of this, we could find ourselves just ending up as a new Detroit --- another island of poverty in the middle of a sea of affluence. That's not even good for the poor; as the tax base goes down the services get worse and worse. There's no easy solution to this --- certainly not outrage at the city's attempt to draw in more affluent taxpayers. It's perfectly rational to concentrate services in the cities, where they can be more effectively delivered (would you really want to try to replicate HCMC up at Lake of the Woods?). The problem is that our governmental system (despite the laudable idea of the Metropolitan Council), doesn't take this into account, and throughout the country the suburbs and exurbs have been on the rise, while the cities are saddled with a combination of increasing social burdens and collapsing revenue. -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] designer voting schemes
RH == rhalfhill [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: RHAs Tim Bonham should know, the touch screen voting machines in the RH2004 election did not provide a paper trail that could be audited. RHThe United States was a laughing stock in an underdeveloped country RHlike Venezuela whose touch screen voting machines kept not only a RHpaper record of the vote in the referendum on Hugo Chavez but RHallowed the viewer to view his ballot through a transparent screen RHbefore it dropped into the ballot box. In the United States, no RHone will really know who won the 2004 elections until the touch RHscreen voting machines have been seized under court order and RHexamined by computer professionals to determine if there has been RHhacking or the insertion of vote altering algorhythms, etc. The RHincredible stupidity of installing touch screen computer voting RHmachines that did not leave an auditable paper trail can be RHexplained only by an intent to steal the election. I wish I could recall the exact quote, but I think it's something to the effect of never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by simple stupidity.[1] It's easier and cheaper to have voting machines that don't keep paper audit trails. If you are trying to save money, and (as customer) you have a naive estimate of how reliable computers are, and (as supplier) you want to please your customer (and win a competitively-bid contract) by providing a cheaper solution. This is off-topic, so I promise not to say more about this, but the above also substantially mis-represents the state of affairs. The United States doesn't either have touch-screen voting machines with or without paper trails, or not have them. Voting implementation is mostly left to the state level and below. As far as I can tell, from reading the standards from the Secretary of State's office, Minnesota DOES require that all voting machines provide a paper audit trail. Maybe this is a national disgrace, but this seems like a place where we, locally, BENEFIT from Federalism. I'd rather have a good Minnesota standard locally, than the kind of busted standard we would get if the Federal government stepped in and overrode ours. If you are interested in more details about this, you could look at the web sites of the Electronic Frontier Foundation (www.eff.org) or Verified Voting (www.verifiedvoting.org). In general, whenever anyone says Diebold, be afraid, be very, very afraid... One of my reasons for not being in favor of IRV is that I don't want to see us open the can of worms of modifying our voting equipment. I *like* the optical scanners, and most alternatives seem bad to me. And even a software update to the existing machines makes me nervous. Footnotes: [1] Ah! I see. It's Hanlon's Razor http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/h/HanlonsRazor.html -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] designer voting schemes
I felt like someone ought to weigh in as a skeptic about these new voting schemes. There are a bunch of reasons why I'm not enthralled with the idea of IRV (and even less by proportional representation): 1. It seems to me that a lot of people want IRV because they feel like voting should be some kind of act of self-expression, rather than a political decision-making process. I used to be more gung-ho for extreme positions, and even voted for some third party candidates in the past. But these days I'm more appreciative of the fact that voting is meant to be part of political decision-making and that even voting requires compromises. Seems like compromise is becoming a dirty word in our political discourse these days, but I don't think that's a good thing. 2. I'm skeptical of the claims that this is somehow going to provide a magical solution to voting problems. Somewhat akin to point number 1, are we asking too much of voting systems? For a while now, there have been results in the economics literature that show that voting schemes are ALL going to have some problem somewhere. This isn't a problem that you can work around --- it's a mathematical fact (Arrow's theorem). Yet still we see people suggesting that some new voting fix is going to make everything great (I'm thinking of Lani Guinear, if anyone still remembers her...). Not to say that you can't have better and worse voting schemes; but you'll never have a perfect one. 3. I'm worried about the outcome on bottom-of-the-ballot issues. These are issues where there are often very, very few voters, and we ALREADY have the possibility of bad outcomes when apathy is combined with a strong-willed minority. What happens when we add to this the problem of people voting in a self-expression style, implicitly expecting that their votes will be moderated in a run-off, but there is no run-off, because the turnout is so low? 4. How much is this going to cost, anyway? Don't we have bigger problems, with another staggering budget deficit in the offing? Best, Robert -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Strib calls school closing plan good
MH == Michael Hohmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: MH It would be interesting to compare the initial recommendations MH of David Jennings regarding the proposed school closings with MH the results now recommended by the consultants and likely to MH be approved by the Board. What was achieved given the extra MH time and expense? What are the net differences? Maybe this MH comparison has already been made and I just missed it. MH Now the question becomes one of assessing each closed site for MH future use. I'd imagine some will be demolished, while others MH will be recycled in one fashion or another. Future use will MH also impact MPS finances-- both immediately and over the MH longer term. What's the process to determine the future of MH these sites as they are closed? The thing I would most like to see is some information about how these school closings are going to HELP. How are they going to free up resources (primarily, I assume, money) to make education work better. Honestly, I think the process was very flawed, because they hired an architectural firm to decide how to allocate space, but seem to have charged them not to think about either the financials (will this closing allow us to save money to provide better education at the remaining schools?) or the educational objectives (will this school closing interfere with teaching children, and if so, how, and how will we remedy this?). -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] What do Plastic Bags Cost Minneapolis in Disposal Costs?
DS == David Strand [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DS I'm curious if 17 cents would be similiar to the DS expense to Minneapolis. Can our resident waste DS specialist on the list find out this information for DS us? DS I've heard the argument that plastic bags take less DS energy to manufacture than paper ones but paper ones DS biodegrade faster and are less difficult to dispose. DS Given these competing ideas is one really DS environmentally prefereable to the other in all DS situations? DS David Strand DS Loring Park DS Fun fact to know and tell: DS San Francisco is deciding if stores should charge DS customers $.17 for each plastic bag. The city has DS calculated that $.17 is what it costs them to process DS the bag. It is hoped that this will encourage DS primarily cloth bags, sugar based compostable DS *plastic* replacement bags, or paper. I didn't get around to answering this before. I would also like to hear an answer. My understanding is that 1. the city REQUIRES me to use plastic bags for garbage. So I'm not sure why I'd want to get less plastic bags from supermarkets. It'd just mean I'd buy more to turn into landfill! [actually, right now, I take paper bags, because the city requires me to use paper for recycling, but the point stands.] 2. If we have monster landfills, does ANYTHING biodegrade in them? I thought that big landfills, because they are anaerobic and under high pressure (from the weight of accumulated garbage), don't allow anything to decompose. I'd be delighted to be wrong about this! Thanks, Robert -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] SW schools escape closure - reaction?
Since I've been asked, I am pleased that Jefferson has survived the axe. We have already heard from people who feel that it would be a very good thing if some schools were closed. Based on my experience watching this process (I was, unfortunately, out of town on the day of the most recent meeting, so I missed some of the tail end), here are some remarks/suggestions: 1. If the board feels that it's essential to close schools, it will be important to make the case to the community at large. This will require much more active outreach --- simply having board meetings and getting stories into the Star-Tribune will not be enough. The board will need to aggressively go out to the community (e.g., have community meetings, in neighborhood schools), to make this case. 2. School closings are not decisions that can be taken quickly. If the process involves coming up with recommendations in October, and getting the decision taken in November, that's not going to be enough time. The recommendations will have to be in place much earlier. 3. The recommendations will have to percolate around a bit and be sold to the communities. 4. As always, the people who are most involved are most likely to get their own way. I'm sure we'll hear a chorus about how this means all the middle-class white folks from Southwest get what they want. I'm here to tell you that ain't so. There was a HUGE outpouring of concern and action from the Hispanic community around Jefferson. It was very effective. 5. Maybe #4 isn't such a bad thing. If people are willing to kick and scream to save a school, it must be doing at least some things right. Maybe that doesn't tell you all you need to know about the school, but it does tell you something. 6. The current process had the appearance of thrashing some. First we were going to close Kenny and Kenwood. That caused a storm. Then Jefferson. That caused a storm. Then we moved on to Emerson, and possibly put Kenwood back on the table. This kind of action is very harmful to community trust. For one thing, you can't tell people that their community school is off the table, and then bring it back into play. That erodes trust. Second, the flip-flopping erodes trust that the decision-makers and consultants are taking the time to make a good decision. The impression it leaves is that the time consideration has become paramount, and decision quality is being sacrificed to a deadline. Also, people find out very late that their school is suddenly being considered for closing, and the very abruptness erodes trust. I'm afraid I haven't had time to formulate these very well, or review the experience in a considered way. So take these ramblings with a grain of salt. Happy thanksgiving, Robert -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Response to Commissioner Mason
TONY == TONY SCALLON [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: TONY I am fascinated by the responses by Robert Goldman and Liz TONY Wielinski. First, I have read the resumes. I do not see TONY that either candidate has a Masters Degree in the public TONY resumes. Maybe I missed something. Please recall that I stated that I had not investigated this matter deeply; only that I was interested to hear the opinions of others on the process. I took your earlier email as a motion to table the topic until the process was over. I apologize if I misinterpreted. I have never claimed to be an expert on this subject! [...snip...] TONY I am surprised by the number of candidates that have TONY withdrawn. Liz, one of the problems to attracting good TONY candidates is the continued rancor both by the Commissioners TONY and by interested citizens. I do not think having a TONY Commissioner vote against the three finalists is productive. TONY The differences between Commissioner Dziedzic and Mason TONY should not be a part of this Park Superintendent selection TONY process. Yes I believe the process can work to a reasonable TONY conclusion. I believe most of the rancor is actually TONY counterproductive. I agree that rancor is likely to be counterproductive. I am afraid that there is another explanation for the large number of candidate withdrawals. This is not directly from experience with public official hiring, but from experience with hiring in universities. There may be adverse consequences to a candidate who is in already a senior position in some other administration (e.g., a parks superintendent in another city). So they won't want to take the risk of applying for a position if they think there isn't a good chance of getting the position. If there's a favorite son candidate like Gurban in a process, it can be very discouraging to outsiders, and they may pull their applications for that reason. It's a rational thing to do in the circumstances. You may fear that you don't have a chance against the internal candidate, or you may fear that your candidacy is not really being considered: that the outside candidates are just window-dressing, and the result is a foregone conclusion. The number of drop-outs is a sign that the external candidates, at least, don't have faith in our process. Maybe this should be a wake-up call. -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Response to Commissioner Mason
TS == TONY SCALLON [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: TS If it is not the lack of a Masters degree, what makes Jon TS Gurban not as qualified? I have reviewed the resumes of both TS candidates. I do not find the kind of differences that calls TS for Gurban to be described as not as qualified. Both TS candidates left standing have managed suburban park systems. TS Gurban has spent more time in Associations and Private Sector. TS Gears, the other candidate has more experience being a line TS staff person. Two points: 1. The people who have objected to Gurban's lack of a Master's degree have pointed out that this means that Gurban is not officially qualified to run a park. So it seems like we're requiring *less* qualifications of the superintendent than of a park manager. [1] 2. Saying that Gurban seems as good as the other person seems at least to this reader to be a very weak claim. How do Gurban's qualifications compare to those of superintendents of other, similar Park systems. [2] TS The accusations against Gurban have inflamed the discussion of TS Park Superintendent. We need a reasonable interview process TS not a rhetorical discussion. TS I agree with Commissioners Young and Erwin. We should allow TS the interview process to continue. After the selection, there TS will be an opportunity to review how well the Commissioners TS did their process. I am not an expert on this, but isn't it reason for concern that we have only TWO candidates for such a high-stakes post? Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by saying we should allow the interview process to continue. Why would concerned citizens want to just pipe down and wait until the process terminates? By then we'll have a Parks Superintendent, won't we? And then if we're unhappy it will be too late, or at least very difficult to fix the problem. Also, if we get a bad superintendent and want to get rid of him/her later, my guess is that we'll have the privilege of paying some contractual penalty to do so. Under the circumstances, seems like now IS the right time to air concerns. I'm not judging Mr. Gurban; I don't know enough to do so. But I'm grateful to those who care enough to concern themselves about his candidacy, and I for one would like to hear what they have to say. Footnotes: [3] Full disclosure --- I have not independently verified this claim, but no one has objected to it. [2] Again, I'm not prejudging the answer to this question. Maybe his are just as good. I'd just like to know, and if we are paying a consulting firm to manage this search, we should get from them an answer to this question. -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] On the tagline thread; www.smokeoutgary.com
Dan == Dan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dan Trying to force ones view on everyone else is fascism. Dan Dan McGrath Dan Longfellow Dan http://www.smokeoutgary.org OK, I'd like to invoke Godwin's law on this posting. Viz [from the Wikipedia]: Godwin's Law (also Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies) is an adage in Internet culture that was originated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states that: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. There is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. In addition, whoever points out that Godwin's Law applies to the thread is also considered to have lost the battle, as it is considered poor form to invoke the law explicitly. [Note that I'm willing to accept the latter consequence.] Fascism killed tens of millions in death camps, on battlefields, under bombs, and in cities under siege, throughout the world. It's a hell of a lot more serious than making you take your cig outside. It's out of line to toss this accusation around in such a monumentally trivial context as restaurant smoking bans. There are still those of us who remember family members who were murdered by fascism. That's MURDERED, as in killed horribly, not asked to put out their smoke or step outside. This kind of accusation is baseless and on the far side of courtesy, civility, and good taste. -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] RE: Superintendent's Search
JE == John Erwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: JE There has been quite a bit of discussion on this list about JE the current search and I just wanted to weigh in on a couple JE of issues. JE First, There was recent a criticism of the Oldani Group and JE the job they have done with the Park Superintendent search. I JE would inform the list that we had approx. 23 candidates for JE the Superintendent position. Of those 23, 5 were found to be JE acceptable by the Oldani group as noted in a recent public JE meeting. After reading the background information, I JE supported the 5 that Oldani recommended and agreed with their JE choices. Unfortunately, 3 of the 5 candidates have withdrawn. JE This leaves us with two candidates. I very much look forward JE to hearing from these 2. JE It is also not unusual that there are withdrawals in such a JE search for an upper level management position as existing JE employers may make counter offers. We are especially JE vulnerable to this as our pay for the Superintendent position JE is considerably below most other Park systems of similar size JE (often $20,000-40,000 per year less) because of state salary JE caps. JE Second, I remind the group/list that we have not heard either JE candidate interview yet! I very much look forward to hearing JE from both candidates. To suggest that any commissioner will JE absolutely vote one way or another is premature. I am very grateful to Mr. Erwin for sharing his thoughts about the process with this list. I was left with one question: why have Oldani restrict the pool to five if that could be whittled down to two (or potentially even one)? Wouldn't it be better to have the firm find a larger pool of candidates (23 applications actually seems fairly low in today's job market)? And then ask the consultants to leave you with a larger group to choose from, or rank-order the candidates so that you could replace choices that dropped out? I'm not sure I understand the process: Did the board ask Oldani to filter the full set of candidates down to five? Or did Oldani just remove unsuitable candidates and find that that process left the Board with only five candidates who met some minimum standards? If the latter, did Oldani provide a list of criteria and scoring to justify the choice of this group of five? I would suggest that, in a very troubled process like this, providing lists of criteria and an audit trail of numerical rankings would be a valuable tool for securing public trust in the outcome. Also, did Oldani make any effort to solicit applications, or did they simply take some set of existing applications (presumably responses to an advertisement or set of advertisements) as what they had to work with? Thanks again for taking the time! -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Walker Library Task Force Meeting 11/18/2004 1pm
OK, I'd just like to say some words in defense of MPL, because I think WM's remarks are not entirely fair. I'm not saying malicious, but I don't think that they take into account the way the library functions or Niziolek's intentions in the dual-use plan. See below: WM == wizardmarks [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: WM Dorie Rae Gallagher wrote: Well said MD! We want our library doors open! WM WM: If you want library doors open, then you are going to have WM to persuade the board of MPL and it's staff that the way they WM have deployed staff has been screwy for the last 10 years or WM better. Look particularly at circulation statistics for ALL WM libraries and the staff count for those community libraries WM with the highest stats. Then compare that with Central WM stats. and Central staff count. I believe that you will WM discover that Central has far more staff members (just in the WM library itself, not in the admin. depts.) than its circulation WM warrants. Granted, some people who use Central come there for WM reference documents which cannot circulate, but then people WM come to community libraries for reference work as well. The WM over-staffing of Central predates the recent extreme budget WM cuts by years. Circulation figures cannot be the only criterion. Central provides many services that the branches don't. For one thing, Central holds a large number of resources and distributes them out to the branches (e.g., I hardly ever bother to go direct to a branch these days, because each branch has spotty holdings; I just order the books I want through the web and go pick them up). Also, the central library provides repository services such as reference services, federal documents, etc., that simply can't be done remotely. Central also provides the invaluable inter-library loan service. In general, staffing up Central can be justified as providing services that are used by all the branches. WM Vis-a-vis Walker, I have no idea why the board is even WM discussing sharing space with private entities. Walker is WM extremely busy, it's on at least six bus lines, it's WM incredibly convenient and, as such, it's in a primo position WM to build patronage of the library. In a nation which is WM becoming more illiterate by the year, this is an important WM function for libraries. I apologize for speaking for Dan Niziolek, since I might be garbling his essential idea. Here's my understanding of his proposal. You may not agree with it, but it was prompted by a love for our libraries and our neighborhoods: 1. This building is a mess. It's built like a bunker, and it has been plagued with repeated leak problems and now this roofing issue. The building was designed in a brief fad for underground construction for energy-efficiency. Now we can build much more energy-efficient solutions without building bunkers. 2. The underground location has other adverse impacts. One of the most notable is that the garden area around the library must be closed, because of the danger of people in it being hit by garbage and other objects thrown down by passers-by and people waiting for the bus. Look down at the garden someday as you pass by. You will find that it is always filled with rubbish. 3. My personal take: being underground is yucky. If you buy ##1-3, or any substantial part thereof, you might like to see the library get out of the present building. This is especially true of #1, because it holds out the promise of a steady flow of expenses to repair the building. Unfortunately, notwithstanding ##1-3, there is no way that the library board, by its lonesome, could afford to replace this building. They can barely afford to fix its roof alone! Given that, it seems entirely reasonable to try to take advantage of the fact that the Walker is on some primo real estate to try to get developer dollars to add to the library's money and make a nice building. I think that we are right to be concerned about some of the details: 1. Would enough $$$ would come in to make this worthwhile? I seem to recall some of these projects not working out that well for the non-profit. I think the Museum of Modern Art tried to do this in Manhattan, and it didn't work too well because the multi-million dollar condos came on the market during a NY real estate slump. 2. Would we be paying too high a price in terms of library downtime? I don't know whether the library would be closed much longer under the mixed-use plan than under the plan that just fixes the roof. If this falls through, making some deal with the YWCA seems like it might be nice. But the cost of finding some way to bridge over the Greenway might make that a non-starter At any rate, I don't know enough about the pro's and con's yet to either endorse the dual-use plan or reject it. But I do know enough about
[Mpls] Bicycle Protocol
Steven == Steven Houdek [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Steven I think it's totally senseless for bikers to use a parkway Steven when a bike path is next to them. Isn't that what it's Steven for? Bicycles? The bikes paths around lakes such as Steven Nokomis are just that: Bike paths. I don't drive my car on Steven the bike paths, bikers should stay off the parkway until Steven they need to turn. I know it's a few people that do this, Steven but it is very annoying, especially at rush hour time. Steven Cars then get backed up because everyone is trying to be Steven careful around the biker. To follow up with what others have said, this seems like a common misconception of drivers in this area. Bikers are not obligated to use bike paths; they are entitled to use the roads. Others have pointed out that the bike paths have a 10 mph speed limit, which is quite slow for a real bicyclist. All parties are happier when the nylon team jersey gonzo stays off the bike path, and doesn't try to ram his way through a flock of slow leisure bikers, kids on extender bikes, roller bladers, etc. I have also found that many of these bike paths were quite treacherous when wet, because of paving sealant that was sometimes used, and unsuitable for bike commuting. This sealant sweats oil in the rain. I recall going around a corner on a bike path near Wirth Park, and wiping out right behind three other bikers who had wiped out in the same place. On a patched strip, my tires suddenly had no traction at all, and the bike just flew out from under me. That was the last time I used bike paths for commuting. From then on, I rode the parkways, and now I reserve bike paths for family leisure riding on clear, sunny days. I understand that people can get impatient at rush hour, but remember, the parkways are PARK ways. They are 25 mph roads, and were designed for people to at least slow down and smell the roses; they were not built to be commuter arteries. If you get that angry at being behind a bicyclist, maybe you should not be on a park way. I understand that traffic patterns may have changed, and you may not be able to find an artery where you want one. But that's the fault of changed traffic patterns, not of bicyclists, slow convertible drivers, and other people who want to use the parkways for the purpose for which they were built. -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] facilities planning
I'm afraid I don't have time to give this the full attention that it deserves today, but here are some preliminary comments: Eli == Eli [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Eli Didn't anybody catch the article in Star Tribune on the Eli Saturday that the district was considering or plan to keep Eli Jefferson open and merging the Emerson Dual Emersion Program Eli with the one at Jefferson. Yes, I saw this, and I'm relatively pleased. On the face of it, it looks like a much more sensible decisionI think it makes more Eli The facilities planning group was not charged with dealing Eli with programs, options, choices, but with working with the Eli best facilities for the entire district. I agree. But I additionally feel that this shows how pathological the process was. We have a planning group that is supposed to decide how space should be allocated FOR EDUCATION, and the board has for some reason gone out of its way to avoid having educators participate (giving it instead to an architectural firm), and to rule out of bounds concerns about the programs that will be moved, destroyed, etc. That just seems like a kooky way to plan operations for a Board of Education. Education being the purpose of this organization, should drive other concerns (although admittedly, there are other constraints, including population trends and money that must be taken into account). Driving your decisions from buildings and then making the education fit is topsy-turvy. Eli However I think that MPS can get back on the path, but we Eli need to be constructive critics, and not just negative Eli critics. Amen. I believe I have done this. I have tried to suggest that the Board should have gone out of its way to involve the community in this decision-making process, and have consultants that would act to promote this process, instead of just having a band of technocrats. I don't wish to slam Kevin Hallbeck and his group --- they seem sincere people, and I do think they want to provide the best decision. But I don't believe that this overall process has been conducted in the best way: the Board didn't act to convince the citizens of the need for school closings, the Board hasn't gotten buy-in for the plans, and (as I said earlier) no one has given us detailed enough suggestions to convince us that they have even thought about how to handle the mergers and closings, much less that they have a good plan. I don't care if parents' objections to buying a pig in a poke are stigmatized as negative. Stopping people from doing something dumb is a positive act. Maybe it would be better if we could provide suggestions to overcome problems, but we need to be informed about what the problems are before we can do this. In the meantime, it's important to avoid having things get worse. Eli This type of attitude drives the school board crazy. People are attached to Eli bricks and mortar. When you have GOOD bricks and mortar, you SHOULD BE attached to it. There are older buildings that are simply irreplaceable now in this day and age of shoddy building practices. But I'm NOT that attached to bricks and mortar. I am attached to an institution that is a TEAM of educators that functions well, and I don't want to see that scattered to the winds on the say-so of a committee that freely admits that they are not experts on education. Eli When my daughter was at Lake Harriet Open school and it was Eli slated for closing that was fine with my family. However Eli some people who wanted to keep the school program at Lake Eli Harriet and keep the building open started to make Eli anti-semetic remarks about our family as well as against our Eli profession. This is the tone of some of these discussions, Eli we should be focused on what is best for kids and next Eli generation of kids that are coming behind us. Talk about how Eli best to work with the system, because it is here and not all Eli the kids have choices about where they can go. I would like Eli to see a busload of kids from the Southwest go as a school to Eli another school with the same learning style and spend several Eli weeks there sharing life experiences with kids from a Eli completely different neighborhood. Too many people talk about Eli diversity but they are completely unwilling to do anything Eli about it. The refrain is I want diversity but I want my Eli neighborhood more. Life is full of changes and subjecting Eli our kids to life experiences may be the best thing for them. Look, Lake Harriet may not be, but Jefferson is a VERY diverse school. It has a very high proportion of hispanic and African-American students. I don't know what experience you had with Lake Harriet, but as a person active in this discussion about Jefferson, I find your tone very offensive. I am NOT interested in sheltering my children from diversity. I am NOT interested
[Mpls] Hennepin bike lanes
Steve == Steve Brandt [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Steve Are there any other bikers out there who would like to see Steve some enforcement of the one-way direction of downtown bike Steve lanes? I'm tired of having bikers disregard the Steve directions. It gives me a choice between insisting on my Steve right-of-way as someone biking in the proper direction and Steve risking a collision, or swerving into a traffic lane to Steve avoid someone who apparently can't read the directional Steve arrows. Another place where I would love to see one-way enforcement for bikes is around the park bike paths. There's always some people who are too lazy to go around in the proper direction if it means going another hundred yards or so. I used to cross the paths pushing a stroller, and now ride the paths with kids who aren't the most steady, and this behavior annoys the heck out of me. Not only does it endanger the rest of us, it's one of those community-eroding behaviors that says I'm too important to have to follow the rules you follow. If too many people do this and get away with it, then pretty soon the rules just wither away completely. On the main topic at hand, I'm one of the people who has given up on biking that involves riding into or across downtown. Bike lanes wedged between two directions of traffic, and crossed by left-turners are just a goofy idea and, I don't see that it's worth my time worrying about bad behavior or bad signage on them. The existing bike lanes should just be ripped out and replaced by something that isn't so darn stupid. Personally, I'd love to see some pedestrian/bike streets closed to cars, but I'm not sure this addresses the problem: bikes need corridors that can carry them over pretty long distances, not just a mall, and the entry corridors into downtown (at least from the Uptown direction, where I lie) are very badly pinched already. Some imaginative construction like bike overpasses or tunnels would be needed... Given the city's budget pinch, I figure I'll stick to biking where it's safer... :-( -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Facilities Planning (school closing) meetings
Michael == Michael Atherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Michael Robert P. Goldman wrote: The result of these two processes, in my opinion, is that no one is trying to present the details of the plan to the community or to engage the community and convince us that they are making decisions in the best interests of the population of the city. This seems like a badly mis-functioning democracy. Michael When school board members are elected via blind party Michael loyalty rather than an evaluation of the candidates' Michael potential to improve educational quality, then democracy Michael is not functioning as well as it might. I think it will Michael be a long time coming before we see any real improvements Michael in the Minneapolis Public Schools. I think that party-line voting is a symptom of an underlying problem, not a problem in and of itself. The problem is that the School Board is a bottom-of-the-ballot race, and people don't get enough information to make decisions about it. Possibly many people don't bother to collect the information that's available. Given that, party-line voting is a completely rational thing to do. At worst, you'll get a party hack, but at least you won't accidentally vote for someone who thinks that teaching evolution should be made illegal, or that everyone should be taught the wonders of Cuba's socialist paradise. Time to cut the voters some slack! We don't rail at people for making a Consumer Reports-endorsed choice instead of exhaustively testing 20 microwave ovens, do we? People aren't perfectly rational decision makers who can devote years to evaluating all the choices for every vote. We have lives, and must take shortcuts. The voters' decision-making is further hampered by the odd structure of the School Board election (where all the board members are at-large). It's all but impossible for the candidates to cover the whole voting area in such a low-stakes contest, so they don't even try. This makes it even harder to get the information you need to make a good decision. -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Facilities Planning (school closing) meetings
Dan == Dan McGuire [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dan I attended the meeting last Tuesday at Edison. Both Dan Webster and Dan Waite Park were well represented with compelling advocacy for Dan their programs. There was no response to my one question, Dan 'what will this cost /save in dollars other than to say that Dan there will be more later. Dan Privately, Judy Farmer told me after I had asked my question Dan that they Dan purposely didn't want to talk about money yet so as not to Dan give the impression that this was just about the money. I attended the meeting in Southwest last Thursday evening. I haven't had time to thoroughly write up my impressions (and given the way this decision is being rammed through, am unlikely to have the time to do a good job). But I had the same overall impression of the consultants and other official participants ducking crucial questions. Most of the attendees at our meeting were concerned about the proposed Jefferson closing. For those who don't know about the plan, the proposal is to take Jefferson Community School, repurpose it (in some way that has yet to be specified), and merge its programs into Whittier school. There were many fears expressed, but the two primary ones were: 1. Whittier is a K-5 school that is smaller than Jefferson. Jefferson is a fully-utilized K-8. How is Jefferson to be merged into Whittier? Related concerns had to do with the fact that Jefferson has a large auditorium, whereas Whittier has only a small multi-purpose room, and Whittier can't have after-school sports, because its gym is shared with the city park there. There were many related concerns that I don't have time to go into (e.g., Whittier wasn't built for the physically larger middle school kids, Whittier's classrooms are smaller, etc.). At no time did the consultants engage with this question; they simply took notes on these concerns. 2. There was a large representation of Spanish-speaking parents at the meeting. Jefferson has a large ELL program, and is a center for bilingual and English language learning for Spanish-speaking students. The large number of parents at the meeting were happy with the program at Jefferson and deeply concerned about its fate upon merger into Whittier. The only response they were given was that they were entitled to Spanish-sensitive instruction for their children under the law, so they would get it from the School district. In my opinion, what these parents were being asked to do was to trade their children's functioning ELL program for a lottery ticket on a new ELL program. There is a vanishingly small probability that the new ELL program at Whittier would be better than the one they have now, and an extremely high probability that it will be worse, once the students are dislocated and the teaching team is smashed. Beyond these two points, I was left with a very unpleasant impression of the facilities planning process. Dan has already talked about the fact that educators seem to have been purposely excluded from the planning process, which seems akin to leaving pilots, air traffic controllers, and airlines out of airport design. But I was also left feeling that in this process representative democracy has come off the rais. My impression was that the consultants felt that their job was simply to design some plans --- and I think they are trying to design the best plans they can --- and present them to the School Board. Interacting with the community at large, and convincing us of the reasonableness of their plans was not part of the job description. At the same time, the Board of Education is not engaging the community. I feel that the Board would like the consultants to come up with the plan, and push the decision-making responsibility onto them, since the Board had troubles with this last time around. The result of these two processes, in my opinion, is that no one is trying to present the details of the plan to the community or to engage the community and convince us that they are making decisions in the best interests of the population of the city. This seems like a badly mis-functioning democracy. -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Bullying --- are we losing focus here?
As the parent of a couple of MPS students, I'd encourage us to focus on what the school district could or should be doing about this bullying issue. It's tempting to fall into arguments about whether it is the fault of liberals and the 1960s, or capitalism and violent television, but it's not clear how productive that is, since all of these are beyond the control of the Board of Education and Supt. Peebles. Focusing locally, what is the list's feeling about how this issue is being addressed here? I was pretty shocked about Coleman's evasive attitude, to the point where dismissal seemed like an appropriate sanction. What should we ask of the school board and administration, given that we aren't going to turn Minneapolis into a the land of the Book of Virtues or the Communist Manifesto? Is this issue going to drop off the table? Unless something intervenes at the last minute, I'm going to attend the Board meeting this evening, and I'll be interested to see if this is a topic of discussion (although the facilities plan will be the focus). -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] School Yard Bullying
Michael == Michael Atherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Michael To me the most horrific part of this story is Eleanor Michael Coleman's interview. Bureaucratic indifference can Michael be a pretty scary thing at times and it amounts to it's Michael own kind of bullying with pretty much the same type of Michael intrapersonal dynamics. I have to second Michael on this one. I'm a little concerned that quotes might have been ripped out of context (and I haven't been able to see the original bullying video), but I was absolutely appalled at Superintendent Coleman's responses. To quote from the web site: Our reporter asked, That child was thrown to the ground 20 times. That's okay? Coleman replied, By your count. 20 times. 20 times, our reporter said. Coleman replied, By your count. 20 times. We could go sit and I'll point them all out to you, our reporter said. Well, I don't know that the count is necessary, Coleman said. So if the kid gets knocked down only 18 times, it's OK? It's easy to rip quotes out of context, so I'm not rushing to judgment. But if this is an accurate reflection of Coleman's attitude towards bullying and staff indifference --- deny and minimize --- I'd say she should be fired immediately. I'd also like to say that I have been very impressed with what I've seen at Jefferson, my community school, where the zero tolerance for violence policy is taken very seriously. Principal Aponte has been all over this issue, and all the teachers and staff seem on-board. It's something I really liked to see, there having been a lot of bullying and teasing at the school where I grew up (which was actually in an upper-middle-class suburb, with one of the nation's best school systems, not a city; people didn't take this issue at all seriously then). -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] School Closings
I am planning to write a letter to the Star-Tribune about the school closing decision process. I am very much concerned not to be unfair to the board, so here is my perspective on the process. If you see anything obviously inaccurate or unfair, please beat me up here or in private email response. Thanks! 1. Last year the Board of Education had two problems in community relations: the hiring of the (first) new Superintendent, and the attempt to close Kenny school. Both of these ended with the Board's plans overturned by public acclaim. 2. The Board has determined to its satisfaction that it must close schools. I do not feel that it has successfully made this case to the community. I'm not saying there isn't a case, however, it hasn't been clearly articulated. The argument is that enrollments are declining, and will continue to do so, and we cannot maintain the schools with that base of students. My biggest question here is: what alternatives have been explored? For example, from my experience, it would seem that the Minneapolis Public Schools make very wasteful use of buses --- large buses seem to run carrying very few pupils. What attempts have been made to transform under utilized spaces into sources of revenue? What attempts have been made to compete head-on with charter schools, home schooling, transfers to the suburbs, etc. to win back students by providing a good education? Or does the Board plan to just give up the fight to enroll Minneapolis students, and allow our public schools to become schools of last resort for those who can't find a better option? 3. The decision making process here seems aimed at excluding the community, rather than inviting its participation. For example, there will be only two public hearings, one November 17 and 18, and only 12 days from that time until the decision is finalized. This can hardly be seen as an attempt to explain the decision and win the community's endorsement. This is especially true since the consultants' report is not available on the Board of Education's web site in a readable form: it is only available as a PowerPoint presentation with multiple colors, on a dark background, with key pieces of information hidden in Excel spreadsheets that are unreadably small (and swamped by multiple colors). The document cannot be printed, either, unless you have a high-end color printer. Where is the normal, black and white copy of the consultants' report? I'm not implying any kind of malice or conspiracy, just that this is symptomatic of a complete lack of interest in communicating anything to the community outside the School Board. It's certainly far too complex a document to even review adequately in the number of meetings that we are offered, much less win people over. To me the process looks more like an attempt to ram a decision through before any opposition can be mounted, than a way to bring the community together to take a difficult decision. I conjecture that the past failure (see #1) has not taught the board to engage with the community, but rather to quash all opportunity for dissent. Even if the decision turns out to be a good one, the decision-making process was a bad one. This does not augur well for the future of our school system: the less the School Board engages with the population, the more that population will send its children elsewhere. I have already lived in one city (New Orleans), where the public school systems had cratered completely (in 1991 they had science textbooks saying maybe someday an American will walk on the Moon). We don't have to look far to find other cities where this has happened. Is this what the Board sees happening to our schools? If not, what are they doing to fight to provide the best education, an education that parents will choose over charter schools, home schooling, and private education? -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] School Closings
I am new to this process, so I wonder if anyone on the list could enlighten me about the process. If I understand the proposed process correctly, the intention is to have the consultants present their school closing recommendations on the 5th or so, followed by a preliminary decision from the board on the 9th or so, followed by public meetings around the 17th. This seems to me to be a very rushed process, and one that doesn't seem to fit the avowed intention of get[ting] public opinion on the direction of schools. [quote from a story of Steve Brandt's] Why the rush? As a parent, my first impression is that this is an attempt to get a decision, ram it through quickly before the community can react, and be able to blame any outcome on the consultants. Pushing through the decision at a time when the community will be distracted by a tight Presidential race, taking their kids trick-or-treating, and trying to get to grips with the school board election, seems aimed at presenting the community with a fait accompli. Board accountability will be minimized by putting this decision as far from an election as possible, by having the decision made by a board containing lame ducks, and by allowing them to claim that they were simply deferring to the consultants' recommendation. I confess that this is only a first impression, and perhaps unjust. I'm quite prepared to be corrected by people more familiar with the facts. Let me editorialize a little, though. I am somewhat familiar with other situations like this, and my impression is that successful handling of such situations with consultants comes when the consultants can present a recommendation, explain clearly to the stakeholders the rationale for the decision, and help bring them all together around the decision. Sure, some unhappiness may remain, but the rationale helps mollify discontented parties. This process, on the other hand, seems to be crafted to minimize meaningful citizen participation. I can't imagine that community/Board relations are going to be improved by this, rather the contrary. Thanks, Robert -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Hennepin County Commissioner races
I was just wondering as I looked over the candidates for HCC; is there some reason there are no DFL candidates for these posts? Each position open for election has a Republican candidate and no DFL candidate. Would someone with some insight be so kind as to explain why? Thanks! R -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Race and edndorsements
AM == Alberto Monserrate [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: AM I've been following with great disappointment the previous AM posts on whether Peggy Flanagan was endorsed by the DFL only AM because she is Native American. It's amazing that we're having AM this discussion in 2004. Gente de Minnesota endorsed Peggy, AM David Dayhoff and Sandra Miller, because of their willingness AM to reform a school district with a lot of need to reform. We AM also endorsed them, because we felt the board needed a change AM from the current incumbents. We endorsed because of their AM passion for education. We also endorsed them because of their AM previous experience, and their knowledge or willingness to AM learn about the issues that Latino students, teachers and AM district employees face. Race or ethnicity was not the main AM reason for endorsing (David is anglo), but it played a role AM and it should play a role. OK, I was one of those who said this, and I stand by it. It was not meant to be insulting, and it was based on reading (1) the Southwest Journal profile of Peggy as a candidate and (2) the literature I was handed. Note that I am a DFL voter, and I am inclined to be sympathetic. If *I* couldn't find her positions on the issues in her own literature, there's a problem. Attacking the messenger is not going to solve that problem. Also note that I did NOT say that she was endorsed only because she was an aboriginal American. I don't have any insight whatsoever into the endorsement process. But our school system is facing serious challenges, and it needs school board members who will address those challenges. I have since followed up on her web site and I don't see any discussion of those challenges, nor do the four planks in her platform seem to me to be other than motherhood and apple pie. I never said that Peggy was a bad person, or even that she shouldn't be a school board member. I *did* say that she did not make a good case for why she should be elected, and I stand by that. If you are for Peggy, you can either get defensive about this; or just decide I'm wrong (but I urge you to look at her campaign materials before you dismiss me); or I think you could spend your time more productively helping her make a clearer statement of why we should vote for her, and how she thinks we can work together to make the public schools a more stable environment organizationally, and one that will serve its students as well as possible. Remember, it's the candidate's job to convince us to vote for her; it's not our job to convince ourselves. Just to keep an open mind and inform ourselves. Beating us up because she didn't do a good job convincing us is not the way to to change our minds. -- Robert Goldman ECCO REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Peebles City Pages (The Grinch who stole recess)
With all due respect to Mr. Atherton, As a parent of public school children, I haven't seen a lot of evidence of public school employees being obstacles to my children's education. My experience is pretty limited to Jefferson Community school, but I have been very, very impressed with the teachers, principal, vice principal, and even the much-maligned office staff. I am not happy with everything, but my impression of the employees I see in day-to-day contact with students and parents is very favorable. -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Strib endorses Henry-Blythe, Lee, Miller
DB == David Brauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DB Having edited six stories on School Board candidates, I'm not DB sure I find any basket of issue positions to be especially DB distinctive. DB David Dayhoff is a more distinctly independent from the DB unions, but aside from his party ID his positions are mirrored DB by at least one of the other candidates; Sharon Henry-Blythe DB is the only one who said the district was right not to close DB schools last spring; Sandra Miller is more distinctly DB pro-neighborhood school and reading-focused. DB The differences seem to come down to character, decisiveness, DB experience - a lot of personal qualities, and ones quite open DB to interpretation. I thought the Strib's endorsement DB dismissing Flanagan and Dayhoff was dumb because it was ageist DB (especially Dayoff; the man is in his 30s for heaven's sake!). DB While I can't deny Flanagan's Ojibwe heritage is a plus in the DB DFL, dismissing her merely BECAUSE she is Native and talks a DB good game (like that isn't a prereq for most candidates) DB seems as superficial as what it's mean to criticize. DB I am a genuinely undecided voter; I have no axe to grind for DB or against Flanagan. I just think she's being dismissed here DB for unconvincing - or at least un-unique - reasons. I actually came in inclined to vote for Peggy, but was really turned off by the interview in the SW Journal and her campaign literature. Even these fora, which gave her a chance to explain why she was running, seemed to say only that she was running because of her ethnicity. She has no participation in the school system, she doesn't have any experience in education, and she says clearly in the article that she is running only because she couldn't find an aboriginal American with a stake in the system who was willing to run. The original poster didn't dismiss her BECAUSE she was an aboriginal American, only because that seemed to be her entire platform. That's not a superficial argument. -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Question about school closings
Can anyone explain to me in the most clear and simple terms the rationale for the school closings. I *thought* I understood. But now I read the following in the Southwest Journal ( see http://www.swjournal.com/articles/2004/10/21/news/news01.txt ) : [Board member Joseph Erickson] adds that taxpayers shouldn't expect instant savings when the closing plan is finalized. There was this criticism in the community that because the district didn't close schools [last spring], kids had to hold bake sales to keep programs going. But the estimate was that we would save one-half of 1 percent of our budget this year if we did that closing plan, Erickson said. It's true that in 10 years, if we really get great bids for certain buildings or are able to defer a lot of maintenance, we'll save money -- but it will take a long time to wring these savings out. Wow! If that's true, isn't this a lot of pain for relatively small gain? Thanks, Robert -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Peebles City Pages (The Grinch who stole recess)
MA == Michael Atherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: MA Robert P. Goldman wrote: With all due respect to Mr. Atherton, As a parent of public school children, I haven't seen a lot of evidence of public school employees being obstacles to my children's education. My experience is pretty limited to Jefferson Community school, but I have been very, very impressed with the teachers, principal, vice principal, and even the much-maligned office staff. I am not happy with everything, but my impression of the employees I see in day-to-day contact with students and parents is very favorable. MA Jefferson Community School MA Minnesota Basic Skills Test Percent Passing MA Grade 8 MA Reading 51% MA Math 33% MA Minnesota Comprehensive Assessment Percent Proficient MA Grade 3 MA Reading 39% MA Math 58% MA Grade 5 MA Reading 51% MA Math 55% MA Percent of Students Making A Year's Growth MA Reading 53% MA Math 59% MA Tests scores are not everything, but they are general indicators MA of typical performance. My personal opinion is that the performance MA level at Jefferson Community School is unacceptable, but I'm sure MA there might be a lot of nice people who work there. Nice and MA student achievement don't always correlate, neither do management MA style and organizational success. Mr. Goldman's disconnect with MA the overall performance for students at Jefferson illustrates why MA testing is so critical for educational reform, without it we could MA go on for years believing that everything is just fine and dandy. It's worth pointing out that Jefferson is a location that takes a large proportion of students who do not speak English as their first language, and so they have a real uphill push. The question we should be asking is how are these numbers trending? If they are trending down, then Michael has a good point, and my partial view is probably wrong. If they are trending up, then maybe my perception is the more accurate one. Anyone know how to find this information? I did a little preliminary googling, but could find only the single data point. If we have only a one-year snapshot, then it is impossible to say which of us is more correct. -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Question about school closings
sb == Steve Brandt [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: sb But the estimate was that we would save one-half sb of 1 percent of our budget this year if we did that closing plan, sb Your conclusion depends on whether you consider $3 million significant sb or not. Thanks for the quick response. I guess I'm not sure how to evaluate the significance of a savings of $3 million against the disruption imposed on the children in question. How many children will have to be relocated? What's the cost divided over that many children? Note that this isn't intended to be a snotty response --- I *really* don't know how to evaluate the dollars here, because I don't know how much that is on a per-child basis. Even worse, I don't know how to project indirect costs --- does this mean that yet more families will choose to withdraw their children from the school system? Or does it mean that education will be delivered more efficiently, so that more children will see better results? My guess is that the disruption will motivate parents to pull their children, and that may help a bad feedback loop. My biggest concern is that a constant cycle of bad news will turn our public school system into an educator of last resort. I once lived in New Orleans, where the public schools were just a poverty dumping ground (in 1991 they were using science textbooks that said maybe someday an American will walk on the moon, they were teaching in decades-old temporary buildings, and their plumbing systems were malfunctioning frequently). I'd hate to see that happen here. Best, Robert -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
