Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Robert Osfield wrote: > W.r.t beginer section, I don't think this is something we need just > yet. It's actually a topic that has been discussed over the years > w.r.t split the osg-users list into beginner and advanced/scene graph > developers, but I've always resisted this as I'd like to see us all as > user/developers. I personally don't have time and intellectual > capacity to be on several lists, so if one does split things I'd have > to go where my time is most critical and drop other parts. While I > and other advanced users have time and energy to help out with newbies > it's good for us to dive in and answer questions. I believe it's a > important part of middle-ware development - you have to listen to all > the problems that all users come across to understand how the software > needs to be tweaked/evolve. For instance osgViewer exists in the form > it does largely to address problems lots of end users including > newbies had. I just wanted to add that I think this, adding a beginner section, is inevitable, and I've been expecting it for a while. My experience with OSG all along has been that there is a limited quantity of a resource called Robert Osfield, and we need to do whatever is possible to employ that scarce resource best. If it means hiding him away to some extent, and having others take on some of the roles he has traditionally held, then so be it. An advanced OSG-dev list/forum could perhaps be something less easy to join immediately, allowing the osg-users zone to take up the impact of those just looking for the quickest place to ask their question. I know it doesn't solve everything, and isn't pleasant, but think of where Linux would be if we still made Linus answer every new user's questions. -- Chris 'Xenon' Hanson, omo sanza lettere Xenon AlphaPixel.com PixelSense Landsat processing now available! http://www.alphapixel.com/demos/ "There is no Truth. There is only Perception. To Perceive is to Exist." - Xen ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Martin Beckett wrote: > Tomlinson, Gordon wrote: >> Err we have a wiki do we not ? > Except you can't edit it or create an account on it. > And the wiki link takes you to the front page of the site If the wiki is broken, we should see about fixing it. I have recently been using it and updating and correcting pages, and it was working for me. -- Chris 'Xenon' Hanson, omo sanza lettere Xenon AlphaPixel.com PixelSense Landsat processing now available! http://www.alphapixel.com/demos/ "There is no Truth. There is only Perception. To Perceive is to Exist." - Xen ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 12:34 PM, Art Tevs wrote: > Yes, I think in this case, as Roland has already stated out in the thread, > user posted this emoticon [Shocked] (here link to the picture > http://forum.openscenegraph.org/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif) has misunderstood > the meening of this icon. Hmm, I am wonder how to solve that issue, that > nobody misunderstand anybody. Even me, if I read the post by looking on the > pictures, can not understand what really this emoticon is good in this > context for. I think, I could correct it to use the :-) symbols instead of > bbcode, i.e. shocked will then be :O instead of [Shocked] . > Ok, I'll take a look into it. :O would much more appropriate than the written [Shocked], as it's meaning is far less unambiguous than the actual text. Ooch too many double negatives... What I'm trying to say is the graphical and :O representations are a bit ambiguous so people won't read too much in to it as it could be read in several different ways so human nature would typically to give author the benefit of doubt. Whereas text [Shocked] is very specific in what it means, there really isn't any doubt about what it means. Given the selection of emoticon is done graphically where the actual text meaning is not conveyed one can easily select an emiticon that might be wholly appropriate or with the intended meaning, we'd want to maintain that level of ambiguity into the final form in an email or forum post. Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Hi Robert, > > Finally tracked down the thread: > > http://forum.openscenegraph.org/viewtopic.php?p=10619#10619 > > The second message in the thread through me as it came through as : > > "please.. [Shocked]" > > Which suggests a rather impertinent level of impatience, but this > wasn't at all meant. Misunderstanding that can easily sour things > all-round, both for the reader and the original poster. It's silly > once you know what has happened, but knowing this type of thing can > happen is not something obvious until you've seen it once. > Yes, I think in this case, as Roland has already stated out in the thread, user posted this emoticon [Shocked] (here link to the picture http://forum.openscenegraph.org/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif) has misunderstood the meening of this icon. Hmm, I am wonder how to solve that issue, that nobody misunderstand anybody. Even me, if I read the post by looking on the pictures, can not understand what really this emoticon is good in this context for. I think, I could correct it to use the :-) symbols instead of bbcode, i.e. shocked will then be :O instead of [Shocked] . Ok, I'll take a look into it. cheers, art -- Read this topic online here: http://forum.openscenegraph.org/viewtopic.php?p=11693#11693 ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
HI Art, On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 10:09 AM, Robert Osfield wrote: > On the emoticon front, I'll go and search for which email highlighted > this issue. Finally tracked down the thread: http://forum.openscenegraph.org/viewtopic.php?p=10619#10619 The second message in the thread through me as it came through as : "please.. [Shocked]" Which suggests a rather impertinent level of impatience, but this wasn't at all meant. Misunderstanding that can easily sour things all-round, both for the reader and the original poster. It's silly once you know what has happened, but knowing this type of thing can happen is not something obvious until you've seen it once. Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Julia Guo wrote: Paul Speed: We could probably short-circuit a lot just be splitting into two groups and calling one "experts" and the other "beginners"... and no one would have to bother joining the second one. ;) g I hope not. I would have given up on OSG if noobs like me were assigned to a ghetto forum. :) Yeah, I was being facetious. The logical progression on breaking the list into multiple lists is that everyone would join the list that Robert is watching and probably ignore the others. And if Robert is watching all of the lists then it defeats the purpose... Hmmm... unless we named the other list "Don't join this list"... in my experience we'd get lots of subscribers. -Paul ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Hi Art, On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 9:16 PM, Art Tevs wrote: > So again a sum up in the order of their importance: > - force users to use first and lastname in their profiles (moderate user if > he/she don't follow the rules) > - look for one or two additional forum moderators > - correct the smiley/emoticon if needed at all (however I need your feedback > which one do you means) > - automatic quotiation of previous message (need some extra programming > effort to filter out deep quotes to not to pollute the messages) > - automatic message preview system based on AJAX technology (hard task, so > this will be done as soon as I have more time for it) > - maybe we could really add a "Beginner" section in the forum which will > have a prefix [beginner], so that other experts could decide if they want to > take a look or not? What do you think? Wow, yep this mostly looks like it'll make the whole mailing list/forum far more seamless and encourage good net etiquette is not too an intrusive. Thankyou for engaging so thoroughly on this, it is appreciated. At the end of this you're skills will be marketable worldwide :-) W.r.t beginer section, I don't think this is something we need just yet. It's actually a topic that has been discussed over the years w.r.t split the osg-users list into beginner and advanced/scene graph developers, but I've always resisted this as I'd like to see us all as user/developers. I personally don't have time and intellectual capacity to be on several lists, so if one does split things I'd have to go where my time is most critical and drop other parts. While I and other advanced users have time and energy to help out with newbies it's good for us to dive in and answer questions. I believe it's a important part of middle-ware development - you have to listen to all the problems that all users come across to understand how the software needs to be tweaked/evolve. For instance osgViewer exists in the form it does largely to address problems lots of end users including newbies had. On the emoticon front, I'll go and search for which email highlighted this issue. > I think this are the points, we have pointed out in order to improve the > etiquette in our community. All other aspects are more social like and can > not be solved in a "programmer" way, I think. We can write up text on good etiquette, but I do wonder if more text based documentation isn't the answer. Perhaps we need to record videos/provide more pictures on line for various people in the community so that new users can get in touch with the human side of the project in a way that is easy to review and more enticing than just another page of text. For instance explaining why different aspects of etiquette makes things run more smoothly would probably come across better in person rather than a text based list of rules. I'm kinda setting myself up to make such a contribution I've never tried doing audio or video podcasts, but perhaps it's time I did start thinking about it. Does anyone have suggestions of good linux based software that I could use for the task? As well as technical stuff there is also the human skills of presenting information in a compelling way, being a computer geek this really isn't my strong point. So suggestions on sites that give tips on this would be useful too. Cheers, Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Hi, > Robert Osfield: > Sorry but this statement about "old school" is just plain obnoxious. > Please refrain from using such bigoted none-sense on either the list > or forum. > You might find it offensive but its reality - people of younger generation grew up with forums and not mailing lists. That doesnt mean one medium is better than the other, just that peoples usage patterns have changed. > Paul Speed: > We could probably short-circuit a lot just be splitting into two groups and > calling one "experts" and the other "beginners"... and no one would have to > bother joining the second one. ;) g I hope not. I would have given up on OSG if noobs like me were assigned to a ghetto forum. Regards, Julia -- Read this topic online here: http://forum.openscenegraph.org/viewtopic.php?p=11675#11675 ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Hi Robert, all So, I just want to sum up, which next steps are needed in order to create a system which should/might improve the etiquette quality in our community: > > Having both a first name signature and the full name elsewhere > displayed on the post is the best of both of worlds. On the email > front right now the full name can typically be seen in From field, and > with a well composed text the personal will manually sign there name > with an appropriate salutation for the context. > I agree with that point and will force the users use both (first and last) names in their profiles. In order to do so, I have to implement something, which allows easy moderation of messages (on the moderator/admin side) before they are sent to the mailing list. So, this will take couple of days to do so. After this is implemented every user, which name isn't appropriate will be added to the list of moderated users. They will recieve an email that the rules of the forum (i.e. valid names) has to be followed, otherwise their message could not be publicated. > > In the end one will have to have moderators that can make a good > judgement call about how well suited a name is, and if it's not then > have a standard mechanism and documentation on what names are > appropriate so that those who get rejected will know that it's not > person and that there is a simply remedy. > Currently only me and Roland are doing moderation on the forum. However we need maybe somebody from the US time zone, so that we could respond faster and not stall the community communication. I think, I will post some kind of "looking for moderators" message on the list soon. Maybe somebody of you, who are reading this thread, would like to join our moderator team, then contact me :) ? > > Any ideal what percentage of forum users use this template? > No, I have no percentage value of how much users are using this template. However, if I take a look into sent messages, then I would say, that almost 90% use it. However some people do just not understand, that "..." has to be replaced by their text and not ment to be sent with the message too :) > > Where you want to include the contents of the previous post in your > reply depends upon how what you are trying to convey/answer. For > instance with a bulleted post like this one I'm replying to it makes > sense to use the original contents. > > As long as you can delete the reply contents easily I don't see a > problem with it being there by default. I presume the forum will have > both options anyway. > What I would like to have is some kind of "AJAX" based editing system. So that users, whenever they are typing a new message, could directly see, how this will looks like without clicking extra on the "preview" button. However, this is a long-term feature, for which I would need much more time, because it seems there is no such mod for the forum available, at least I wasn't able to find it. So to fix some solution, I wouldn't change the message typing system for now, because I would even need some special treatment if I would like to include the previous messages as quotes automatically. Because I would like to have the quotes which has a deep level of quotiation be cleaned u automatically. This need some brain power to think, how to do so... > > Signatures are very useful though, I almost always sign my posts, I > believe it's an important part of net etiquette, a little bit of oil > in the cogs of an otherwise very try communication medium. > Currently the template is providing already some kind of automatic signature. It adds "Thank you! Cheers, First Last name". So I think this is enough as a signature, because users should be able to see, that something like that has to be used. I wouldn't like to force forum users to specify an extra signature in their profile, because this would discriminate them over the mailing list users, which often don't use any signature. > > The system solutions are probably be down to refinement of > signatures/templates. Perhaps being able to see what others will see > of your posts would be useful as well. I haven't used the > blog.openscenegraph.org to post anything yet, but I presume you get to > review you post being it's submitted. Would it be helpful to provide > what forum users will see of the post as well what text mailing lists > users will see? > As stated before, this already exists, if user hit the "preview" button. Then he/she is able to see, how their message will look like. However, since many of users don't even do so, I would like to have some kind of automatic message preview, which requires time to implement. > > On the system side as well one friction point that came up recently > was the a smilely used in forum came through as a unintended sarcastic > remark when it came through in email. See the text sent to the > mailing list would help with this. Just nixing this smileys
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Hi All, Wow lots of a traffic, I'll not reply to all as I'll get over my 10 public posts of day sanity quote :-) I will reply to Art though, as he's on the front line working to do the actual work to improve things and specific decisions need to be made. On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 6:58 PM, Art Tevs wrote: > What we need is a solution for that problem. I wouldn't like to cutoff forum, > and I think also no of the ~300 users of the forum would also like to make > so. Yes, signal to noise ratio on forums is more then on pure ML only. > However, as some of you has already stated out, this is more or less a social > problem then the engineering one. However, in order to make it better, we > require some strict rules/filters etc for a proper etiquette. I'm optimistic that the single to noise ratio can be improved, this is both in general content and the friendliness of the communication itself. The later is what I'm particular concerned about right now. Sure there are lots of newbies questions being asked by people who really should have done a bit more background reading, but that life we all come in difference shapes, sizes and preferences, as long as they are polite and patient it's actually kinda irresistible to help them out. The challenge is in having systems that coax people into communicating in friendly ways, and avoiding the pitfalls of mixed mediums. > So, what forum moderators could do is to > 1. filter out users, with non-appropriate real names - what do we meen by non > appropriate names? Is only a first name already appropriate? How about users > who would like to keep some kind of anonymization, by using only the first > name. Are names with two letters ok, as used by our asian friends, i.e. Li, > Xi, ... ? There was already a thread about that, but at the end there was no > real, concrete answer to this! There is a balance between individuals preference for short names and psuedo names and the ability of a mass model of communication, you simply can't have a community of several thousand and have people use just first names. Once you are in thread there is a reasonable chance that single names will be sufficient, but even then it's still quite common to see multiple Paul's to be writing in one thread. Having both a first name signature and the full name elsewhere displayed on the post is the best of both of worlds. On the email front right now the full name can typically be seen in From field, and with a well composed text the personal will manually sign there name with an appropriate salutation for the context. W.r.t what names are acceptable and what's not, this is a hard one. The bottom line is that it should possible to uniquely identify someone, there might not use there real name, but there have to identifiable as a particular person as it's a pretty fundamental part of human communication. Names also need to be readable and non offensive not some collection of letters or a silly phrase. One has to be mindful of language and cultural differences too, so hard and fast rules based on one cultures standards won't be viable. In the end one will have to have moderators that can make a good judgement call about how well suited a name is, and if it's not then have a standard mechanism and documentation on what names are appropriate so that those who get rejected will know that it's not person and that there is a simply remedy. > 2. Force to use some kind of template, when posting a reply or new topic. > This is already in use and is sometimes used by the users. Template is set as > default message, when posting something. So any user, who see this, should > understand what is this good for. I believe this is a good facility. Even if someone doesn't use the template there should at least get an idea of what basic structure is appropriate. Any ideal what percentage of forum users use this template? > 3. Should user's reply always include a quote of the previous message? I do > not really like such things, because they unnecessary pollute the threads. > Yeah, there is even a pollution from some of the email clients there, which > do quote the message in very strange manner. Which makes the reading very > hard. So this is not only a problem of forum users. Where you want to include the contents of the previous post in your reply depends upon how what you are trying to convey/answer. For instance with a bulleted post like this one I'm replying to it makes sense to use the original contents. As long as you can delete the reply contents easily I don't see a problem with it being there by default. I presume the forum will have both options anyway. > 4. Should users be forced to have a signature, which describes him/her > somehow or just have some appropriate name in the signature. What about users > which are using ML only and do not have signatures? Do we also exclude them > from the community? We should only exclude people who are abusive of the communi
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Hi, On Wednesday 06 May 2009, Tomlinson, Gordon wrote: > I Have a slightly different view :) > > I don't care too much about names and stuff, but I understand why Robert > and others do, I prefer forums for something's but also find that email > list are generally better on other things ( were all Different ) > > I get more annoyed at what seems to be just outright RUDENESS, ignorance > and laziness, it seems more and more people cannot even read the readme, > look FAQ's, look through the examples, god forsake they run the examples. > People cannot even look into headers to find a function they may need , > cannot do a simple search of the source code, or even look at it , most do > not even understand what something like Google is and how it helps etc.. > And then we get to the demanders that demand answers now!, demand you write > code for them, you would be amazed at the emails on this I have had over > the years... > > Even when you point many to solutions or and code they then moan why can > you not just give me the code to solve my problem aarrgh > > Sorry I digressed a little but it is all in part the same sort of problem > , All this makes me even crankier than I normally am :) > > But it also makes me appreciate more all the folks that do contribute to > the projects (even if I cannot use some if :)) > > > So a big THANK YOU to all that do contribute Well, I don't think that this is too different from my observations. I do also believe that this is a huge part of that problem. But there are other projects which have a different mood on the lists. So the question remains, what could be done to get there? Not willing to be crude, but one might need to paint a clear line what is apropriate for this kind of support list and what is not. Note that this could be done in a polite way! Being consequent helps a lot in many situations. Just my half of a cent ... Greetings and also a big and impressed thank you for all working here!!! Mathias -- Dr. Mathias Fröhlich, science + computing ag, Software Solutions Hagellocher Weg 71-75, D-72070 Tuebingen, Germany Phone: +49 7071 9457-268, Fax: +49 7071 9457-511 -- Vorstand/Board of Management: Dr. Bernd Finkbeiner, Dr. Roland Niemeier, Dr. Arno Steitz, Dr. Ingrid Zech Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats/ Chairman of the Supervisory Board: Michel Lepert Sitz/Registered Office: Tuebingen Registergericht/Registration Court: Stuttgart Registernummer/Commercial Register No.: HRB 382196 ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Martin Beckett wrote: rosme wrote: If so, how to organize things better to be prepared for a much larger user community? One option is to split general up into more sub-topics (Beginners, c++, OpenGL, Geometry, Files etc) then people can direct their interest/expertise to answering those questions. Of course it doesn't guarantee people will post in the appropriate forum (and not cross post) but it's a possibility. Martin The problem I see with this is that it doesn't really work unless Robert and the other experts are ignoring certain groups. Otherwise, reading e-mail in five lists all the time is slightly more painful than reading from one but basically no different. And if that's the case, it only takes a little while before people sort out the expert lists from the non-expert and start posting every question there instead. The people who don't figure that out aren't going to notice which list they should be posting to anyway and will just pick a random one. We've all seen it happen. "Oh, I thought since I was using OpenGL in C++ that I should post to the C++ group..." Or "I didn't post to the beginner group because I wanted experts to answer it." We could probably short-circuit a lot just be splitting into two groups and calling one "experts" and the other "beginners"... and no one would have to bother joining the second one. ;) The forums and mailing lists that have lots of users and low noise are heavily moderated. -Paul ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
rosme wrote: > > If so, how to organize things better to be prepared for a much larger user > community? One option is to split general up into more sub-topics (Beginners, c++, OpenGL, Geometry, Files etc) then people can direct their interest/expertise to answering those questions. Of course it doesn't guarantee people will post in the appropriate forum (and not cross post) but it's a possibility. Martin -- Read this topic online here: http://forum.openscenegraph.org/viewtopic.php?p=11564#11564 ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Hello all, to get things back on topic again; I believe that the different attitude in posts we see these last months is not only due to a different mentality on the forum, but something that also happens due to growth of the active community. The amount of members on the ML has more or less stabilized and the forum now brings in new and possibly more inexperienced osg users. True, forums seem to be more chat-like and people hide behind usernames and fancy avatar images. The real question however is how to setup the user/support community for future growth of the active community. Surely there will be a point (or there already is) where we can't expect Robert to process all posts even if they all were written in a polite way and with proper names to address. The same can be said for submission processing or maintenance of nodekits and plugins. The user community of Ogre has more than 18000 forum members and a large group of forum moderators, mvps, expert users etc. that respond to the majority (at least the FAQs) of posts. Simply looking at the forum statistics for the lead engineers of both projects reveals this: -Sinbad aka Steve Streeting (Ogre lead) 9.79 posts per day -Robert Osfield 10.78 posts per day I may be taking turns on two wheels, but I suspect that 10 posts per day is the limit of what a person can handle next to the normal work that he has to do. So if the community grows the number of supporting members must grow accordingly. Do you agree with this analysis? If so, how to organize things better to be prepared for a much larger user community? kind regards, Roland Smeenk -- Read this topic online here: http://forum.openscenegraph.org/viewtopic.php?p=11561#11561 ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Martin Beckett wrote on Wednesday, May 06, 2009 3:23 PM: > I didn't know about the user:osg password:05G > I had tried the same username and passwd as here but it failed You have to register a wiki login; it doesn't use the same username and password as the mailing list (though that might be a nifty thing to have at some point in the future) > ps. it's now giving a database error page? Can you be more specific? I've gotten "database is locked" messages, which I assume mean that it temporarily locks you out if you try to log in with the wrong password too many times, but after a little while (5 minutes maybe) you can try again. -- Bryan Thrall FlightSafety International bryan.thr...@flightsafety.com ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
I didn't know about the user:osg password:05G I had tried the same username and passwd as here but it failed Cheers, Martin Beckett ps. it's now giving a database error page? -- Read this topic online here: http://forum.openscenegraph.org/viewtopic.php?p=11555#11555 ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Hi Martin, Err we have a wiki do we not ? Except you can't edit it or create an account on it. And the wiki link takes you to the front page of the site a) you could always edit it, you just (in the past) needed to log in with the username and password that were given (user:osg password:05G). Some pages were locked of course (Downloads, etc.) and still are. b) Have you been to the wiki recently? You can register for your own user name - see the register button at the top right of the page. This came about because Jose Luis upgraded the version of Trac that the site was using. With that username you can modify any page that's not locked administrator-only (as before). c) I don't get what you mean by "And the wiki link takes you to the front page of the site". Go to http://www.openscenegraph.org/projects/osg/wiki/ and you're on the wiki. There's a search, and a table of contents on the right side. J-S -- __ Jean-Sebastien Guayjean-sebastien.g...@cm-labs.com http://www.cm-labs.com/ http://whitestar02.webhop.org/ ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Art Tevs wrote: > mgb_osg wrote: >> Except you can't edit it or create an account on it. And the wiki >> link takes you to the front page of the site > > > Guys, please, don't go offtopic :) Well, that was only a reaction to the incorrect claim that there is no wiki. > Yes, there is a wiki page, however > a lot of new users, which are active on the ML or forum, doesn't read > the wikis well as Gordon wrote already. I do not think you can solve the problem of people preferring to ask for solution for something instead of actually spending time and reading documentation, list archive, wiki or even books ... > however, Robert, you > should also understand, that some of the things just cannot be solved > in a programmer way. There are people who just not able to follow > very simple rules and we shouldn't close our community also to them, > I think ;) Honestly, I think that if someone expects me to spend time on their problem, I do expect them to follow those simple rules. It is not like they are asked to write the posts while standing on their heads and using their left foot only. Regards, Jan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mandriva - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFKAdkwn11XseNj94gRAidsAJ9vGX9S42SYO2VLSR3L/j92k7FCQgCgvLNr ZiQC0+RkUrJq043DYqwyPN0= =lHt1 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Martin Beckett wrote: > Tomlinson, Gordon wrote: >> Err we have a wiki do we not ? > > Except you can't edit it or create an account on it. That's incorrect - use the 'osg' password to log in and you can edit at will. Many people do. All this is documented in the mailing list archives. > And the wiki link takes you to the front page of the site That is because the web site is *the wiki* :) The web site is pretty much community maintained. Regards, Jan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mandriva - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFKAdgGn11XseNj94gRAjJQAJ4pMUI8//M1U/1cm0YEvgIddZnmRwCeIqBR fVYvaDHVQ1qGAHEzPLW/Da4= =UHio -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Art Tevs wrote: mgb_osg wrote: Except you can't edit it or create an account on it. And the wiki link takes you to the front page of the site Guys, please, don't go offtopic :) Yes, there is a wiki page, however a lot of new users, which are active on the ML or forum, doesn't read the wikis well as Gordon wrote already. What we need is a solution for that problem. I wouldn't like to cutoff forum, and I think also no of the ~300 users of the forum would also like to make so. Yes, signal to noise ratio on forums is more then on pure ML only. However, as some of you has already stated out, this is more or less a social problem then the engineering one. However, in order to make it better, we require some strict rules/filters etc for a proper etiquette. So, what forum moderators could do is to 1. filter out users, with non-appropriate real names - what do we meen by non appropriate names? Is only a first name already appropriate? How about users who would like to keep some kind of anonymization, by using only the first name. Are names with two letters ok, as used by our asian friends, i.e. Li, Xi, ... ? There was already a thread about that, but at the end there was no real, concrete answer to this! 2. Force to use some kind of template, when posting a reply or new topic. This is already in use and is sometimes used by the users. Template is set as default message, when posting something. So any user, who see this, should understand what is this good for. 3. Should user's reply always include a quote of the previous message? I do not really like such things, because they unnecessary pollute the threads. Yeah, there is even a pollution from some of the email clients there, which do quote the message in very strange manner. Which makes the reading very hard. So this is not only a problem of forum users. 4. Should users be forced to have a signature, which describes him/her somehow or just have some appropriate name in the signature. What about users which are using ML only and do not have signatures? Do we also exclude them from the community? And please guys, do also think about that not only forum users are responsible for bad etiquette in our community. What to do with such ML users? I agree with and understand Robert, however, Robert, you should also understand, that some of the things just cannot be solved in a programmer way. There are people who just not able to follow very simple rules and we shouldn't close our community also to them, I think ;) One thing keeps coming up... technology will not solve this problem. On other mailing lists/forums this has been dealt with by aggressive moderation. In those cases, my first four or five posts always went into the moderation queue until a moderator let them through. After the moderators see enough posts from someone to figure out they aren't a chuckle-head then they get unmoderated access. It can be expensive in terms of human expense but it definitely keeps the noise down. Perhaps some group of volunteers who care about Robert's sanity and keeping the mailing list and forum linked can volunteer as noob monitors. I suppose an alternative is to let the readers be selective by marking clearly in the subject if the message is from the forum. If a thread gets a lot of posts then it will become more interesting to those who might otherwise ignore a "[forum]" message. Noob content moderation is still the only truly effective way if the other issues can be worked out. -Paul ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
mgb_osg wrote: > > Except you can't edit it or create an account on it. > And the wiki link takes you to the front page of the site Guys, please, don't go offtopic :) Yes, there is a wiki page, however a lot of new users, which are active on the ML or forum, doesn't read the wikis well as Gordon wrote already. What we need is a solution for that problem. I wouldn't like to cutoff forum, and I think also no of the ~300 users of the forum would also like to make so. Yes, signal to noise ratio on forums is more then on pure ML only. However, as some of you has already stated out, this is more or less a social problem then the engineering one. However, in order to make it better, we require some strict rules/filters etc for a proper etiquette. So, what forum moderators could do is to 1. filter out users, with non-appropriate real names - what do we meen by non appropriate names? Is only a first name already appropriate? How about users who would like to keep some kind of anonymization, by using only the first name. Are names with two letters ok, as used by our asian friends, i.e. Li, Xi, ... ? There was already a thread about that, but at the end there was no real, concrete answer to this! 2. Force to use some kind of template, when posting a reply or new topic. This is already in use and is sometimes used by the users. Template is set as default message, when posting something. So any user, who see this, should understand what is this good for. 3. Should user's reply always include a quote of the previous message? I do not really like such things, because they unnecessary pollute the threads. Yeah, there is even a pollution from some of the email clients there, which do quote the message in very strange manner. Which makes the reading very hard. So this is not only a problem of forum users. 4. Should users be forced to have a signature, which describes him/her somehow or just have some appropriate name in the signature. What about users which are using ML only and do not have signatures? Do we also exclude them from the community? And please guys, do also think about that not only forum users are responsible for bad etiquette in our community. What to do with such ML users? I agree with and understand Robert, however, Robert, you should also understand, that some of the things just cannot be solved in a programmer way. There are people who just not able to follow very simple rules and we shouldn't close our community also to them, I think ;) Cheers, art -- Read this topic online here: http://forum.openscenegraph.org/viewtopic.php?p=11542#11542 ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Art Tevs wrote: 3. I still do not understand whats wrong with having only the first name in the profile. I understand that we need to be able to track message sent by the users before, but this is done by the forum's software automatically. You can get the history of message. If I have a discussion with somebody, I do not care, if his name is "John Clooney" or "John Montgomery". Yeah, even google-mail client, do remove the last part of the name, so that only first name is visible ;) I think that is because you are the only Art on the list. :) When I see a message from a "-Paul", I like to be able to glance up and know whether it's Melis or Martz... without having to click a link or remember which potentially cryptic e-mail address belongs to them. I think this is also the reason, why almost half of the forum users, do put only their first names in their profile. I mean people still want to stay somehow "anonymized" and I think this are their rights. Fine to be anonymous as long as it is a consistent pseudonym that the rest of us can treat as a real name. Someone on the mailing lists used to post for years that way (don't remember who but it was related to their job or something). -Paul (Speed, !Martz, !Melis) ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Much of the noise appears to come from people who don't know the first thing about 3D graphics. Some of the posts even indicate they don't know how to use a debugger. I see this as a much more irritating issue than use of pseudonyms. When I first noticed this uptick in noise, I didn't really see a strong correlation with forum posters. Certainly it's true that thee has always been noise of this nature in osg-users. My personal preference is that osg-users be a resource for information on OSG and scene graphs. I consider basic questions about 3D graphics to be off topic and somewhat of an irritation. When I was starting in the field, I actually sat down and read Foley and Van Dam cover to cover, and used it as a reference for years to follow. I still recommend this. It's a faster and more reliable resource than osg-users for this type of info. You can spend time adding information of this nature to the wiki, but the finished product will probably be lower quality than already available in several 3D graphics texts. Many newbies won't know the info exists and won't read it; the noise in osg-users will continue. I'm not trying to be a defeatist, I'm just being realistic. Paul Martz Skew Matrix Software LLC http://www.skew-matrix.com +1 303 859 9466 ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Tomlinson, Gordon wrote: > Err we have a wiki do we not ? Except you can't edit it or create an account on it. And the wiki link takes you to the front page of the site -- Read this topic online here: http://forum.openscenegraph.org/viewtopic.php?p=11540#11540 ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Martin Beckett wrote: > Can I raise the proposal for a wiki again? Do you mean: http://www.openscenegraph.org/projects/osg ? That is a wiki already. Regards, Jan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mandriva - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFKAccln11XseNj94gRAho1AKCZG6ypaZL1I8e4NsvsfzdYlxWeJQCfR4io 8inYvMHvmVpN9mZrmuELPe4= =Xxnl -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Err we have a wiki do we not ? Gordon Product Manager 3d __ Gordon Tomlinson Email : gtomlinson @ overwatch.textron.com __ -Original Message- From: osg-users-boun...@lists.openscenegraph.org [mailto:osg-users-boun...@lists.openscenegraph.org] On Behalf Of Martin Beckett Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 1:11 PM To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org Subject: Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal Can I raise the proposal for a wiki again? Openscenegraph is a complex piece of infrastructure. It involves maths topics like matrices and quaternions (that many of us forgot 20years ago), advanced C++ concepts (ref ptr and heavily templated code), OpenGL interoperation and a fairly complex problem domain. The resources are the examples, Paul Martz's excellent introduction and the source. There are FAQs and tutorials on other sites but how up-to-date or correct are they? The forums are a great help because it is easier to track a thread than in the mailing list. But I am wary about posting solutions in case they are not quite correct. A wiki would make it easier to post FAQs and samples which can then be corrected by more knowledgeable users without a long thread war. It would also be a good place to publish code snippets which aren't necessarily submissions to the core code. Martin Beckett -- Read this topic online here: http://forum.openscenegraph.org/viewtopic.php?p=11535#11535 ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.or g ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Hi all, On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Martin Beckett wrote: > Can I raise the proposal for a wiki again? > Hum... I may be wrong be the current site already allows editing, no ? I think that anyone can contribute on the tutorials or documentations pages. Cheers, -- Serge Lages http://www.tharsis-software.com ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Can I raise the proposal for a wiki again? Openscenegraph is a complex piece of infrastructure. It involves maths topics like matrices and quaternions (that many of us forgot 20years ago), advanced C++ concepts (ref ptr and heavily templated code), OpenGL interoperation and a fairly complex problem domain. The resources are the examples, Paul Martz's excellent introduction and the source. There are FAQs and tutorials on other sites but how up-to-date or correct are they? The forums are a great help because it is easier to track a thread than in the mailing list. But I am wary about posting solutions in case they are not quite correct. A wiki would make it easier to post FAQs and samples which can then be corrected by more knowledgeable users without a long thread war. It would also be a good place to publish code snippets which aren't necessarily submissions to the core code. Martin Beckett -- Read this topic online here: http://forum.openscenegraph.org/viewtopic.php?p=11535#11535 ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
I Have a slightly different view :) I don't care too much about names and stuff, but I understand why Robert and others do, I prefer forums for something's but also find that email list are generally better on other things ( were all Different ) I get more annoyed at what seems to be just outright RUDENESS, ignorance and laziness, it seems more and more people cannot even read the readme, look FAQ's, look through the examples, god forsake they run the examples. People cannot even look into headers to find a function they may need , cannot do a simple search of the source code, or even look at it , most do not even understand what something like Google is and how it helps etc.. And then we get to the demanders that demand answers now!, demand you write code for them, you would be amazed at the emails on this I have had over the years... Even when you point many to solutions or and code they then moan why can you not just give me the code to solve my problem aarrgh Sorry I digressed a little but it is all in part the same sort of problem , All this makes me even crankier than I normally am :) But it also makes me appreciate more all the folks that do contribute to the projects (even if I cannot use some if :)) So a big THANK YOU to all that do contribute Gordon Product Manager 3d __ Gordon Tomlinson Email : gtomlinson @ overwatch.textron.com __ -Original Message- From: osg-users-boun...@lists.openscenegraph.org [mailto:osg-users-boun...@lists.openscenegraph.org] On Behalf Of Mathias Fröhlich Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 11:45 AM To: OpenSceneGraph Users Subject: Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal Hi, On Wednesday 06 May 2009, Brian R Hill wrote: > I agree with Rick. > > It's a much larger on-line cultural/social issue. I also understand > Robert's feelings. It's hard to put your heart into something when you > can't make the human connection with the person you're trying to help. > > Support is all about reaching out and helping someone, not just > throwing information out into a void. > > I don't know the solution. Yep, I started three times today a comment on this thread, but canceled that because I did not provide a solution ... But yes, my impression is the same. And my impression is that forums attract more of those people. And on average my impression on the average forums is that I do not get that kind of help I hope to get. So all in all I try to avoid the need for a forum for this and the usual and well known scalability reasons ... The only thing I see is to point people with too basic questions to a faq. Or tell peope who are too unpolite that they are too unpolite. So, nothing non obvious from me ... Greetings Mathias -- Dr. Mathias Fröhlich, science + computing ag, Software Solutions Hagellocher Weg 71-75, D-72070 Tuebingen, Germany Phone: +49 7071 9457-268, Fax: +49 7071 9457-511 -- Vorstand/Board of Management: Dr. Bernd Finkbeiner, Dr. Roland Niemeier, Dr. Arno Steitz, Dr. Ingrid Zech Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats/ Chairman of the Supervisory Board: Michel Lepert Sitz/Registered Office: Tuebingen Registergericht/Registration Court: Stuttgart Registernummer/Commercial Register No.: HRB 382196 ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Hi, On Wednesday 06 May 2009, Brian R Hill wrote: > I agree with Rick. > > It's a much larger on-line cultural/social issue. I also understand > Robert's feelings. It's hard to put your heart into something when you > can't make the human connection with the person you're trying to help. > > Support is all about reaching out and helping someone, not just throwing > information out into a void. > > I don't know the solution. Yep, I started three times today a comment on this thread, but canceled that because I did not provide a solution ... But yes, my impression is the same. And my impression is that forums attract more of those people. And on average my impression on the average forums is that I do not get that kind of help I hope to get. So all in all I try to avoid the need for a forum for this and the usual and well known scalability reasons ... The only thing I see is to point people with too basic questions to a faq. Or tell peope who are too unpolite that they are too unpolite. So, nothing non obvious from me ... Greetings Mathias -- Dr. Mathias Fröhlich, science + computing ag, Software Solutions Hagellocher Weg 71-75, D-72070 Tuebingen, Germany Phone: +49 7071 9457-268, Fax: +49 7071 9457-511 -- Vorstand/Board of Management: Dr. Bernd Finkbeiner, Dr. Roland Niemeier, Dr. Arno Steitz, Dr. Ingrid Zech Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats/ Chairman of the Supervisory Board: Michel Lepert Sitz/Registered Office: Tuebingen Registergericht/Registration Court: Stuttgart Registernummer/Commercial Register No.: HRB 382196 ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Hi folks, @Cory, @Robert: Disabling the forum isn't an option, I think. After the forum get online, I recieved so much positive feedbacks, that users are happy to have the forum instead of mailig list. There were also people who were using the ML for a long time, but they were happy finally move to the forum. So, as Robert said, we should try to solve our problems, before just creating a gap between forum and ML users! And if we now think about, what we are discussing here, it sounds somehow (sorry for my poor english, but I do not know how I could say this more politically correct) "childish"! 1. I've changed the template now, so that it looks like: --- Hi, ... Thank you! Cheers, user_realname --- (user_name) is replaced by user's real name. However, if users do not like to follow that etiquette, what should I do then? 2. Before i will suspend user accounts, I have to implement the possibility of giving users the possibility to change their messages before it get sent to the ML, as I said before. So this will take time. 3. I still do not understand whats wrong with having only the first name in the profile. I understand that we need to be able to track message sent by the users before, but this is done by the forum's software automatically. You can get the history of message. If I have a discussion with somebody, I do not care, if his name is "John Clooney" or "John Montgomery". Yeah, even google-mail client, do remove the last part of the name, so that only first name is visible ;) I think this is also the reason, why almost half of the forum users, do put only their first names in their profile. I mean people still want to stay somehow "anonymized" and I think this are their rights. Cheers, Art Tevs -- Read this topic online here: http://forum.openscenegraph.org/viewtopic.php?p=11509#11509 ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Folks, I agree with Rick. It's a much larger on-line cultural/social issue. I also understand Robert's feelings. It's hard to put your heart into something when you can't make the human connection with the person you're trying to help. Support is all about reaching out and helping someone, not just throwing information out into a void. I don't know the solution. Brian This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in delivery. NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such purpose. -osg-users-boun...@lists.openscenegraph.org wrote: - To: osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org From: R Schwantes Sent by: osg-users-boun...@lists.openscenegraph.org Date: 05/06/2009 10:52AM Subject: Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal Hi guys, Just thought I'd chime in with my .02c. More and more of the emails I receive do not have a greeting, or even a signature. There seems to be a culture shift In the way 'newschoolers'? send email. Almost as if email is heading towards the same format as sms. I agree that it is impolite and almost rude (apparently spell check has also gone out of style), but in my opinion it has become a social problem, bigger than some code on the forum can fix. I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't think severing ties with the forum, or inserting the posters name with code is going to make this problem go away. I think this is a problem that is here to stay, and will probably get worse. I usually flat out ignore emails without a signature, or reply telling them to tell me who they are before I send a useful response. Again just the thoughts of an over caffeinated programmer, Rick On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:18 AM, Art Tevs wrote: > Hi Jean-Sebastian, > > > Skylark wrote: >> >> My suggestions: >> >> 1. When the user clicks "reply" on an existing post, when the template >> is generated, I guess the forum software could insert the name of the >> user whose post is being replied to automatically, and at the end the >> name of the user replying? That would give: >> >> --- >> Hi , >> >> ... >> >> Thank you! >> >> --- >> >> I don't think that would be too hard. >> > > > Ok, I am working now on this possibility. However, I am not sure if we need to add the , because somebody will definitily loose the track, when replying to the post. For example in the thread XMen posted something. The last answer will be from Chewbacca. Then the Luke want to answer to XMen's post, however the template will looks like: > > Hi Chewbacca, > ... > Cheers, > Luke > > So the XMen will be not happy about that because the post seems to go to him, but Chewbacca was who was greet by Luke. So, I think just hte neutral "Hi, " is already enough. I bet, that some of the users wouldn't be able even to fill out the template well, this is my experience. > > > >> >> 2. Perhaps you could remove the "post reply" button at the bottom of the >> thread page, so that users are forced to reply *to* a previous post, >> quoting the previous post (which is something that's sorely missing from >> forum posts as well - most of them have no context at all!). >> > > Ok, I agree, this would be a nice feature. However, this will take some time to implement. Because I would like to remove the double quoted messages out of the reply message. So that we have only one level of depth in the quoted messages. This is still enough, I think. Otherwise the thread get polluted by quotes, which isn't really helping a lot. > > > As to the use of names. I have first to implement something, that users can be suspended well. The current roblem is, if I suspend a user and he post something. Then the message for the mailing list is also generated and is just waiting to be sent. So if user have a name "Coca Cola" and has written something. Even if he change then the name when we inform him, the email will still contain the "Coca Cola" as authors name. This require also some time to be work well, hence be patient. > > Cheers, > art > > -- > Read this topic online here: > http://forum.openscenegraph.org/viewtopic.php?p=11486#11486 > > > > > > ___ > osg-users mailing list > osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org > http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org > ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Hi guys, Just thought I'd chime in with my .02c. More and more of the emails I receive do not have a greeting, or even a signature. There seems to be a culture shift In the way 'newschoolers'? send email. Almost as if email is heading towards the same format as sms. I agree that it is impolite and almost rude (apparently spell check has also gone out of style), but in my opinion it has become a social problem, bigger than some code on the forum can fix. I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't think severing ties with the forum, or inserting the posters name with code is going to make this problem go away. I think this is a problem that is here to stay, and will probably get worse. I usually flat out ignore emails without a signature, or reply telling them to tell me who they are before I send a useful response. Again just the thoughts of an over caffeinated programmer, Rick On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:18 AM, Art Tevs wrote: > Hi Jean-Sebastian, > > > Skylark wrote: >> >> My suggestions: >> >> 1. When the user clicks "reply" on an existing post, when the template >> is generated, I guess the forum software could insert the name of the >> user whose post is being replied to automatically, and at the end the >> name of the user replying? That would give: >> >> --- >> Hi , >> >> ... >> >> Thank you! >> >> --- >> >> I don't think that would be too hard. >> > > > Ok, I am working now on this possibility. However, I am not sure if we need > to add the , because somebody will definitily loose > the track, when replying to the post. For example in the thread XMen posted > something. The last answer will be from Chewbacca. Then the Luke want to > answer to XMen's post, however the template will looks like: > > Hi Chewbacca, > ... > Cheers, > Luke > > So the XMen will be not happy about that because the post seems to go to him, > but Chewbacca was who was greet by Luke. So, I think just hte neutral "Hi, " > is already enough. I bet, that some of the users wouldn't be able even to > fill out the template well, this is my experience. > > > >> >> 2. Perhaps you could remove the "post reply" button at the bottom of the >> thread page, so that users are forced to reply *to* a previous post, >> quoting the previous post (which is something that's sorely missing from >> forum posts as well - most of them have no context at all!). >> > > Ok, I agree, this would be a nice feature. However, this will take some time > to implement. Because I would like to remove the double quoted messages out > of the reply message. So that we have only one level of depth in the quoted > messages. This is still enough, I think. Otherwise the thread get polluted by > quotes, which isn't really helping a lot. > > > As to the use of names. I have first to implement something, that users can > be suspended well. The current roblem is, if I suspend a user and he post > something. Then the message for the mailing list is also generated and is > just waiting to be sent. So if user have a name "Coca Cola" and has written > something. Even if he change then the name when we inform him, the email will > still contain the "Coca Cola" as authors name. This require also some time to > be work well, hence be patient. > > Cheers, > art > > -- > Read this topic online here: > http://forum.openscenegraph.org/viewtopic.php?p=11486#11486 > > > > > > ___ > osg-users mailing list > osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org > http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org > ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Hi Cory, On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Cory Riddell wrote: > This thread is more than a little worrisome for me. I'm one of the newbies > here (been here 5 or 6 months). I looked at OSG and a few other scene graph > packages (one of which is not open source). I settled on OSG because the > support I received here was by far the most helpful as I started scaling the > learning curve. Your voice is one of a handful that have consistently been > there answering my (often inane) questions. I truly appreciate it. > > Nobody has mentioned the big elephant over there, so I will. Why don't you > sever the link between the forum and the mailing list? I did suggest earlier in the thread that we might need to sever the dual mailing list/forum we can't sought out the problems we are seeing. It's a last resort though. We should try and fix things, either by tweaking the software systems or addressing the human side. Having a dual list/forum where there is little distinction is my ideal, let users decided what medium of support works best for them be it mailing list or forum. This ideal is not straight forward though to achieve technically or culturally, which is why we are seeing this pains. The first step to solving them is talking about the problem and possible solutions, which is what this thread is about ;-) Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Hi Jean-Sebastian, Skylark wrote: > > My suggestions: > > 1. When the user clicks "reply" on an existing post, when the template > is generated, I guess the forum software could insert the name of the > user whose post is being replied to automatically, and at the end the > name of the user replying? That would give: > > --- > Hi , > > ... > > Thank you! > > --- > > I don't think that would be too hard. > Ok, I am working now on this possibility. However, I am not sure if we need to add the , because somebody will definitily loose the track, when replying to the post. For example in the thread XMen posted something. The last answer will be from Chewbacca. Then the Luke want to answer to XMen's post, however the template will looks like: Hi Chewbacca, ... Cheers, Luke So the XMen will be not happy about that because the post seems to go to him, but Chewbacca was who was greet by Luke. So, I think just hte neutral "Hi, " is already enough. I bet, that some of the users wouldn't be able even to fill out the template well, this is my experience. > > 2. Perhaps you could remove the "post reply" button at the bottom of the > thread page, so that users are forced to reply *to* a previous post, > quoting the previous post (which is something that's sorely missing from > forum posts as well - most of them have no context at all!). > Ok, I agree, this would be a nice feature. However, this will take some time to implement. Because I would like to remove the double quoted messages out of the reply message. So that we have only one level of depth in the quoted messages. This is still enough, I think. Otherwise the thread get polluted by quotes, which isn't really helping a lot. As to the use of names. I have first to implement something, that users can be suspended well. The current roblem is, if I suspend a user and he post something. Then the message for the mailing list is also generated and is just waiting to be sent. So if user have a name "Coca Cola" and has written something. Even if he change then the name when we inform him, the email will still contain the "Coca Cola" as authors name. This require also some time to be work well, hence be patient. Cheers, art -- Read this topic online here: http://forum.openscenegraph.org/viewtopic.php?p=11486#11486 ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Hi Robert, This thread is more than a little worrisome for me. I'm one of the newbies here (been here 5 or 6 months). I looked at OSG and a few other scene graph packages (one of which is not open source). I settled on OSG because the support I received here was by far the most helpful as I started scaling the learning curve. Your voice is one of a handful that have consistently been there answering my (often inane) questions. I truly appreciate it. Nobody has mentioned the big elephant over there, so I will. Why don't you sever the link between the forum and the mailing list? I understand that some people prefer the forum, but we all lose if forum noise kills your enthusiasm for OSG support. The forum could continue independently and if there are enough people who prefer that format, it will thrive. As for the "old school" comment- I think that is probably how a lot of people feel about mailing lists. I wouldn't consider it an insult though. You could always threaten to move everything to an nntp server :). Cory Riddell Robert Osfield wrote: Hi Art, On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 1:07 PM, Art Tevs wrote: So you think using only one name (first or last name, whatever) is already enough for us? I just do want to have some concrete knowledge of what do you want to have. We need some rules, however, in order to implement filtering systems, I need concrete wishes. Ideally you'd have both, the full name so you know which John or Jose you are talking to, and the personal name used in 1 to 1 conversation. Believe me or not, but this possibility is already there. There is some kind of template message appearing whenever you want to write a post through the forum. So users don't even need to type something extra, it is already there. The template looks like: --- Hi, ... Thank you! --- Maybe you have seen the "..." in the posted messages in the last days ;) So, what should I do more? If a user isn't able to even follow that template, what should we then do??? I have no answer for this. The template is useful for sure and may well be a the route to making things map better between forums and mailing list. J.P's suggest of putting the posters name after the Thank you!/Cheers would be probably be good. Forum users seeing something similar to what mailing list users see would certainly be a good sanity check before posting. I was wondering about the signature itself being customizable/tailored to each user. The fullname is already typically displayed as the From address. Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Hi Art, Believe me or not, but this possibility is already there. There is some kind of template message appearing whenever you want to write a post through the forum. So users don't even need to type something extra, it is already there. The template looks like: --- Hi, ... Thank you! --- My suggestions: 1. When the user clicks "reply" on an existing post, when the template is generated, I guess the forum software could insert the name of the user whose post is being replied to automatically, and at the end the name of the user replying? That would give: --- Hi , ... Thank you! --- I don't think that would be too hard. 2. Perhaps you could remove the "post reply" button at the bottom of the thread page, so that users are forced to reply *to* a previous post, quoting the previous post (which is something that's sorely missing from forum posts as well - most of them have no context at all!). On a related note, I always read the mailing list and resent your "old-school" comment, I just prefer messages to come to me so that I don't miss anything. Plus, all forums I've ever been a member of suffered from the problems Robert mentions, communication is very unpersonal, users hide behind the anonimity and flame wars erupt because of miscommunications. For the record, you say that in the past weeks there haven't been any posters without a real name, but there was one called "Real Name" which slipped through. It's hard to take such posters seriously. J-S -- __ Jean-Sebastien Guayjean-sebastien.g...@cm-labs.com http://www.cm-labs.com/ http://whitestar02.webhop.org/ ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Hi Art, On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 1:07 PM, Art Tevs wrote: > So you think using only one name (first or last name, whatever) is already > enough for us? I just do want to have some concrete knowledge of what do you > want to have. We need some rules, however, in order to implement filtering > systems, I need concrete wishes. Ideally you'd have both, the full name so you know which John or Jose you are talking to, and the personal name used in 1 to 1 conversation. > Believe me or not, but this possibility is already there. There is some kind > of template message appearing whenever you want to write a post through the > forum. So users don't even need to type something extra, it is already there. > The template looks like: > --- > Hi, > > ... > > Thank you! > --- > > Maybe you have seen the "..." in the posted messages in the last days ;) > > So, what should I do more? If a user isn't able to even follow that template, > what should we then do??? I have no answer for this. The template is useful for sure and may well be a the route to making things map better between forums and mailing list. J.P's suggest of putting the posters name after the Thank you!/Cheers would be probably be good. Forum users seeing something similar to what mailing list users see would certainly be a good sanity check before posting. I was wondering about the signature itself being customizable/tailored to each user. The fullname is already typically displayed as the From address. Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Hi, Art Tevs wrote: Hi Robert, robertosfield wrote: In the real world almost all of us will have a family name and a personal name and typically the personal name is used in conversation. Different cultures or even different companies will have different conventions on which names are put first. In the context of local communications you can guess which is the personal and family names quite easily, for instance if I got an post from Robert Burns I'd guess that I could say Hi Robert in a response to them, even if the post came through as Burns Robert. However, if we starting looking at users from different countries then one simply can't guess reliably which name is which. So you think using only one name (first or last name, whatever) is already enough for us? I just do want to have some concrete knowledge of what do you want to have. We need some rules, however, in order to implement filtering systems, I need concrete wishes. The easist way to fix this is in communications follow the convention: Hi FirstName, Text of message Thanks/Cheers/Regards MyFirstNameThatIsAppropriateoAddressMeAs This does require extra typing, and hence slightly more effort to write in this form, but if you read the various threads it's far easier to see who's saying what, and it's also far more personable. Believe me or not, but this possibility is already there. There is some kind of template message appearing whenever you want to write a post through the forum. So users don't even need to type something extra, it is already there. The template looks like: --- Hi, ... Thank you! --- Maybe you have seen the "..." in the posted messages in the last days ;) So, what should I do more? If a user isn't able to even follow that template, what should we then do??? I have no answer for this. Maybe it can still help to automatically insert the user's name after the "Thank you!". Then the user will see his forum name in the message and leave it there, or if it looks silly like: Thank you! Real Name maybe change it. jp cheers, art P.S. Please jsut give me concrete wishes, what you would like to have and I will try to implement them. -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright terms and conditions, e-mail legal notice, and implemented Open Document Format (ODF) standard. The full disclaimer details can be found at http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html. This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Hi Robert, robertosfield wrote: > > In the real world almost all of us will have a family name and a > personal name and typically the personal name is used in conversation. > Different cultures or even different companies will have different > conventions on which names are put first. In the context of local > communications you can guess which is the personal and family names > quite easily, for instance if I got an post from Robert Burns I'd > guess that I could say Hi Robert in a response to them, even if the > post came through as Burns Robert. However, if we starting looking > at users from different countries then one simply can't guess reliably > which name is which. > So you think using only one name (first or last name, whatever) is already enough for us? I just do want to have some concrete knowledge of what do you want to have. We need some rules, however, in order to implement filtering systems, I need concrete wishes. > > The easist way to fix this is in communications follow the convention: > > Hi FirstName, > > Text of message > > Thanks/Cheers/Regards > MyFirstNameThatIsAppropriateoAddressMeAs > > This does require extra typing, and hence slightly more effort to > write in this form, but if you read the various threads it's far > easier to see who's saying what, and it's also far more personable. > > Believe me or not, but this possibility is already there. There is some kind of template message appearing whenever you want to write a post through the forum. So users don't even need to type something extra, it is already there. The template looks like: --- Hi, ... Thank you! --- Maybe you have seen the "..." in the posted messages in the last days ;) So, what should I do more? If a user isn't able to even follow that template, what should we then do??? I have no answer for this. cheers, art P.S. Please jsut give me concrete wishes, what you would like to have and I will try to implement them. -- Read this topic online here: http://forum.openscenegraph.org/viewtopic.php?p=11464#11464 ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Hi Art, On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 12:19 PM, Art Tevs wrote: > I do not know, what I should extra put in the mail sent from the forum. Most > of the users has just only a username and a realname, nothing else. > Usernames, are more or less useless. Realnames are used in the mail headers > to specify the author name. So there is no extra information we can send from > the forum to the mailing list. The names assigned to forum post sent through to the mailing list often are useful, but it doesn't solve the problem completely. I don't think systems will solve the problem completely either. In the real world almost all of us will have a family name and a personal name and typically the personal name is used in conversation. Different cultures or even different companies will have different conventions on which names are put first. In the context of local communications you can guess which is the personal and family names quite easily, for instance if I got an post from Robert Burns I'd guess that I could say Hi Robert in a response to them, even if the post came through as Burns Robert. However, if we starting looking at users from different countries then one simply can't guess reliably which name is which. The easist way to fix this is in communications follow the convention: Hi FirstName, Text of message Thanks/Cheers/Regards MyFirstNameThatIsAppropriateoAddressMeAs This does require extra typing, and hence slightly more effort to write in this form, but if you read the various threads it's far easier to see who's saying what, and it's also far more personable. You're a good example of a forum user who makes this extra effort. > @Robert: > I wonder how you would like to reduce the "signal to noise" ratio? Through > the forum we get a lot of new users into the community. Hence in the last > couple of months there were much more "real beginner" questions then before. > There is almost nothing you can do about this. Pointing users everytime to > read the tutorials before they post something, doesn't work! Excluding > beginners from the community isn't that friendly! Hence I do not see any > solution here, maybe you? I don't think there is necessarily a huge influx going on relative to what we've seen in the past. New members of the community has always been a part of the community. It's how they go about communicating is the issue. I need to go right now, will write more later. Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Hi both, J.P. Delport wrote: > > Maybe Art can make the forum to mailing list converter add the details > (that are normally displayed in the forum) to the bottom of the emails? > Would this have any benefit? > I do not know, what I should extra put in the mail sent from the forum. Most of the users has just only a username and a realname, nothing else. Usernames, are more or less useless. Realnames are used in the mail headers to specify the author name. So there is no extra information we can send from the forum to the mailing list. @Robert: I wonder how you would like to reduce the "signal to noise" ratio? Through the forum we get a lot of new users into the community. Hence in the last couple of months there were much more "real beginner" questions then before. There is almost nothing you can do about this. Pointing users everytime to read the tutorials before they post something, doesn't work! Excluding beginners from the community isn't that friendly! Hence I do not see any solution here, maybe you? OK, let us come down and think about solving that issue... I think, I could make our threats about breaking the rules comes to life and just suspend user accounts, that, where we think, their names are not appropriate for our community. If they change it, we (moderators/admins) could reenable them. They still will be able to read messages, however posting will be not permitted. Here I have a question: "Are just first names already appropriate for the community? Or should every user have first and last name specified?" However, you should understand, that it happens sometimes, that users change their names back to something cryptic, after they asked their questions. I have observed such behaviour couple of times. Hence if they post again something, the cryptic name will be used again. Here our filtering system wouldn't work. I could prevent users to change their realnames, so that they still fix. Every user will have to ask us (moderators/admins) to allow to change his/her name. Would this approach also be appropriate for us? cheers, art -- Read this topic online here: http://forum.openscenegraph.org/viewtopic.php?p=11455#11455 ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Hi, Robert Osfield wrote: HI Art, On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Art Tevs wrote: Couple of months ago as you told about cryptic names of the forum users, we have introduced rules in our forum. I have also then informed users, that they have to change there name first. Users has changed their names. Even more I then took a look into almost every user's post to see, if he/she is using a "valid" name. Almost everybody, no I think even every forum user, which has send in the last months a post has used a non-cryptic, perfectly valid name. This effort is appreciated, but still forum posts are often distinctively impersonal. It's how we bridge that gap. OK, part of this users do use only the first name, but wht is wrong with that? Do you want to force users to use their frist and last name? Why if somebody do just want to stay anonymous, for whatever reasons? I think we should allow users to have some kind of free space. If they like to be anonymous and hide them self behind the name e.g. "Lilli" why not? Or do you want that they use "Lilli Li" (i.e. "Li" as last name)? The key is not about rights of forums users to remain "anonymous", the key is being able to track who's who in a big community. One might assume a online name that is a nick name or different from your real name, but it has to be something that is human enough that others can remember who said what and when. No post is in isolation, to be successful at support one has to me mindful of what peoples backgrounds are w.r.t OSG usage. I.e. what platform they are on, what compilers they are using, what previous problems that they've reported, what solution's they've put forward. You can't do support without this ability to match up different threads. disclaimer: I don't use the forums... What I've seen from most forums is that people do not sign their messages because next to the message all their details are displayed anyways. The details might be bogus/nicknames, but one can enforce some rules on that (which I think is being done). Maybe Art can make the forum to mailing list converter add the details (that are normally displayed in the forum) to the bottom of the emails? Would this have any benefit? jp -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright terms and conditions, e-mail legal notice, and implemented Open Document Format (ODF) standard. The full disclaimer details can be found at http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html. This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
HI Art, On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Art Tevs wrote: > Couple of months ago as you told about cryptic names of the forum users, we > have introduced rules in our forum. I have also then informed users, that > they have to change there name first. Users has changed their names. > Even more I then took a look into almost every user's post to see, if he/she > is using a "valid" name. Almost everybody, no I think even every forum user, > which has send in the last months a post has used a non-cryptic, perfectly > valid name. This effort is appreciated, but still forum posts are often distinctively impersonal. It's how we bridge that gap. > OK, part of this users do use only the first name, but wht is wrong with > that? Do you want to force users to use their frist and last name? Why if > somebody do just want to stay anonymous, for whatever reasons? I think we > should allow users to have some kind of free space. If they like to be > anonymous and hide them self behind the name e.g. "Lilli" why not? Or do you > want that they use "Lilli Li" (i.e. "Li" as last name)? The key is not about rights of forums users to remain "anonymous", the key is being able to track who's who in a big community. One might assume a online name that is a nick name or different from your real name, but it has to be something that is human enough that others can remember who said what and when. No post is in isolation, to be successful at support one has to me mindful of what peoples backgrounds are w.r.t OSG usage. I.e. what platform they are on, what compilers they are using, what previous problems that they've reported, what solution's they've put forward. You can't do support without this ability to match up different threads. > I admit, that the "signal to noise" ration on the quality of the posts from > the forum is just different then from the mailing list. As I stated before, > mailing lists is for "old school" developers/users. Sorry but this statement about "old school" is just plain obnoxious. Please refrain from using such bigoted none-sense on either the list or forum. The lower "signal to noise" ratio we are experiencing is with forum posts is not a good thing and it not acceptable long term. The bigger the community we have the more we have to strive to increase the "signal to noise" ratio to keep the noise to a tolerable level. Increasing community size and increasing noise at the same time is a huge step backwards and it simply not viable long term. We have to reverse the trend to lower single to noise ratio. This is not about new users requiring more support. This is a normal part of the community, throughout the history of the OSG it's been growing and introducing new users. What has made this possible is that we've able to condition the communication style so that it really about people interfacing with people at a personable level. I would like suggestions on how to turn things around, and start fixing things otherwise we'll need to cut the ties between the mailing list and forum. Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Support becoming less and less personal
Hi Robert, Couple of months ago as you told about cryptic names of the forum users, we have introduced rules in our forum. I have also then informed users, that they have to change there name first. Users has changed their names. Even more I then took a look into almost every user's post to see, if he/she is using a "valid" name. Almost everybody, no I think even every forum user, which has send in the last months a post has used a non-cryptic, perfectly valid name. OK, part of this users do use only the first name, but wht is wrong with that? Do you want to force users to use their frist and last name? Why if somebody do just want to stay anonymous, for whatever reasons? I think we should allow users to have some kind of free space. If they like to be anonymous and hide them self behind the name e.g. "Lilli" why not? Or do you want that they use "Lilli Li" (i.e. "Li" as last name)? I admit, that the "signal to noise" ration on the quality of the posts from the forum is just different then from the mailing list. As I stated before, mailing lists is for "old school" developers/users. Cheers, art -- Read this topic online here: http://forum.openscenegraph.org/viewtopic.php?p=11433#11433 ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
