Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Scott Barnes]

It's also important to point out that inside Microsoft it's a corporate policy 
that all front facing sites use Silverlight instead of Flash so this does often 
drive some solutions to be used in favor of Silverlight. The downside is often 
teams aren't happy with this policy and seek alternative ways to game the 
policy ... In using html5 internally from hence forth could also help you avoid 
this policy and gain favor with the windows org (owners of ie team) so I think 
what Paul is probably eluding to is that a Titan like live / bing team helped 
the cause.. Now it's probably office or windows titans to back or reject 
silverlight and wpf from here on out.

Past successes around bets on silverlight are as useful in today's discussion 
as past bets on wpf or Winforms.. A team can will drop a tech as fast as it 
took to use it should the winds of political change and budgets hold true..

my point is - be faithful to the mistress silverlight and/or wpf but don't fall 
blindly in luv with either to the point where you reject any hint of change for 
fear it disrupts your belief systems .. The timing is just bad atm

--
Sent from my mini iPad nano
(excuse my spilling and grammar as I have giant man like fingers and this 
device as small keys)

On 01/11/2010, at 4:48 PM, Jose Fajardo  wrote:

> With all respect Paul Stovell I can't make sense of what your diagrams are 
> saying. I apologize if I'm reading them incorrectly BUT the way I read that 
> diagram your suggesting that with Rays' exodus Silverlight has no champion 
> within MS and it will literally cease to exist?!
> 
> I guess if you only read blog & news articles, which pretty much relay that 
> message, you'd be forgiven for thinking that way. 
> 
> But if you look at the facts MS are doing everything but neglecting 
> Silverlight...
> 
> Just look at Microsoft's use of Silverlight & Penetration Numbers...
> 
> 1. New Products
> a) the new Azure portal , 
> b) Windows InTune , 
> c) Lync client are all Silverlight apps
> d) Silverlight profiling tool in VS - massive investment by MS for 
> Silverlight development 
> d) Lightswitch
> e) PivotControl - this has massive potential to change the data 
> visualization and mining industry
> f) etc many others that I'm sure will be announced in the near 
> and far future
> 
> 
> 2. Deep integration of Silverlight into existing core products - deep 
> Silverlight integration across the business, Live and server products (eg. 
> Sharepoint/ MSCRM / Live Portal / Bing all have strong Silverlight 
> integration)
> 
> 3. Penetration numbers
> 
> ~ 96% Flash
> ~ 69% Silverlight (that’s up from 64%)
> ~ 10% (once you add up all the numbers)
> 
> 
> http://www.statowl.com/web_browser_usage_by_version.php?limit%5B%5D=ie&limit%5B%5D=firefox&limit%5B%5D=safari&limit%5B%5D=chrome&limit%5B%5D=opera&limit%5B%5D=netscape
> 
> 
> Again I apologize if I've miss-read your graphs BUT the way I see it based on 
> the facts in front of me (from Microsoft's announcements and public data)  
> Silverlight is alive and kicking and most importantly has healthy investment 
> from Microsoft!
> 
> Regards 
> Jose Fajardo
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com 
> [mailto:ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of 
> ozsilverlight-requ...@ozsilverlight.com
> Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 6:22 PM
> To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> Subject: ozsilverlight Digest, Vol 15, Issue 8
> 
> Send ozsilverlight mailing list submissions to
> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         ozsilverlight-requ...@ozsilverlight.com
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>     ozsilverlight-ow...@ozsilverlight.com
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: 
> Contents of ozsilverlight digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>1. Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet? (Miguel Madero)
>2. RE: So, is Silverlight dead yet? (Darren Neimke)
>3. Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet? (Paul Stovell)
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 15:34:52 +1100
> From: Miguel Madero 
> Subject: Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?
> To: ozSilverlight 
> Message-ID:
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

RE: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Steven Nagy]

He meant to post this image for his own perspective:

http://tinypic.com/r/2hekmlc/7

 

I say let's stop speculating and get on with the show. Worst case we can
rename this list 'ozHTML5'

 

 

From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com
[mailto:ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of Paul Stovell
Sent: Monday, 1 November 2010 5:57 PM
To: ozSilverlight
Subject: Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

 

Jose,

 

There was a lot of sarcasm in those images. Don't take them literally. 

 

The second two charts are my impression of the technologies Microsoft tend
to choose. I've actually managed to avoid all of #1 and #2 in your
suggestions, so the only Silverlight application I'd ever used from
Microsoft was Live Mesh. 

 

Paul

 

 

 

On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 4:48 PM, Jose Fajardo
 wrote:

With all respect Paul Stovell I can't make sense of what your diagrams are
saying. I apologize if I'm reading them incorrectly BUT the way I read that
diagram your suggesting that with Rays' exodus Silverlight has no champion
within MS and it will literally cease to exist?!

I guess if you only read blog & news articles, which pretty much relay that
message, you'd be forgiven for thinking that way. 

But if you look at the facts MS are doing everything but neglecting
Silverlight...

Just look at Microsoft's use of Silverlight & Penetration Numbers...

1. New Products
a) the new Azure portal , 
b) Windows InTune , 
c) Lync client are all Silverlight apps
d) Silverlight profiling tool in VS - massive investment by MS for
Silverlight development 
d) Lightswitch
e) PivotControl - this has massive potential to change the data
visualization and mining industry
f) etc many others that I'm sure will be announced in the near
and far future


2. Deep integration of Silverlight into existing core products - deep
Silverlight integration across the business, Live and server products (eg.
Sharepoint/ MSCRM / Live Portal / Bing all have strong Silverlight
integration)

3. Penetration numbers

~ 96% Flash
~ 69% Silverlight (that's up from 64%)
~ 10% (once you add up all the numbers)


http://www.statowl.com/web_browser_usage_by_version.php?limit%5B%5D=ie
<http://www.statowl.com/web_browser_usage_by_version.php?limit%5B%5D=ie&limi
t%5B%5D=firefox&limit%5B%5D=safari&limit%5B%5D=chrome&limit%5B%5D=opera&limi
t%5B%5D=netscape>
&limit%5B%5D=firefox&limit%5B%5D=safari&limit%5B%5D=chrome&limit%5B%5D=opera
&limit%5B%5D=netscape


Again I apologize if I've miss-read your graphs BUT the way I see it based
on the facts in front of me (from Microsoft's announcements and public data)
Silverlight is alive and kicking and most importantly has healthy investment
from Microsoft!

Regards 
Jose Fajardo





-Original Message-
From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com
[mailto:ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of
ozsilverlight-requ...@ozsilverlight.com
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 6:22 PM
To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com

Subject: ozsilverlight Digest, Vol 15, Issue 8

Send ozsilverlight mailing list submissions to
ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight

or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
ozsilverlight-requ...@ozsilverlight.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
ozsilverlight-ow...@ozsilverlight.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
"Re: Contents of ozsilverlight digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet? (Miguel Madero)
   2. RE: So, is Silverlight dead yet? (Darren Neimke)
   3. Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet? (Paul Stovell)


----------------------

Message: 1


Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 15:34:52 +1100

From: Miguel Madero 


Subject: Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

To: ozSilverlight 
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"



Nice post. But I'm not sure MS is pushing that much (or even that little)
for WPF internally or externally.



On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Paul Stovell  wrote:

> I took the liberty of graphing this:
>
> http://www.paulstovell.com/tool-for-the-job
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Stephen Price
wrote:
>
>> Wow. You mean, "the right tool for the right job" still applies?
>> *feigned shocked look*
>>
>> I've been saying Silverlight is for Apps and HTML is for sites for 
>> ages. Nothing changed here.
>>
>> Should be interesting how they clarify the statement. :)
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Miguel Madero 
>&g

RE: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Carl . Scarlett]

You mean you used Lightswitch?  How did you wash of the smell?  *grin*

 

From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com
[mailto:ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Stovell 
Sent: Monday, 1 November 2010 3:57 PM
To: ozSilverlight 
Subject: Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

 

Jose,

 

There was a lot of sarcasm in those images. Don't take them literally. 

 

The second two charts are my impression of the technologies Microsoft
tend to choose. I've actually managed to avoid all of #1 and #2 in your
suggestions, so the only Silverlight application I'd ever used from
Microsoft was Live Mesh. 

 

Paul

 

 

 

On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 4:48 PM, Jose Fajardo
 wrote:

With all respect Paul Stovell I can't make sense of what your diagrams
are saying. I apologize if I'm reading them incorrectly BUT the way I
read that diagram your suggesting that with Rays' exodus Silverlight has
no champion within MS and it will literally cease to exist?!

I guess if you only read blog & news articles, which pretty much relay
that message, you'd be forgiven for thinking that way. 

But if you look at the facts MS are doing everything but neglecting
Silverlight...

Just look at Microsoft's use of Silverlight & Penetration Numbers...

1. New Products
a) the new Azure portal , 
b) Windows InTune , 
c) Lync client are all Silverlight apps
d) Silverlight profiling tool in VS - massive investment by MS
for Silverlight development 
d) Lightswitch
e) PivotControl - this has massive potential to change the data
visualization and mining industry
f) etc many others that I'm sure will be announced in the
near and far future


2. Deep integration of Silverlight into existing core products - deep
Silverlight integration across the business, Live and server products
(eg. Sharepoint/ MSCRM / Live Portal / Bing all have strong Silverlight
integration)

3. Penetration numbers

~ 96% Flash
~ 69% Silverlight (that's up from 64%)
~ 10% (once you add up all the numbers)


http://www.statowl.com/web_browser_usage_by_version.php?limit%5B%5D=ie&l
imit%5B%5D=firefox&limit%5B%5D=safari&limit%5B%5D=chrome&limit%5B%5D=ope
ra&limit%5B%5D=netscape


Again I apologize if I've miss-read your graphs BUT the way I see it
based on the facts in front of me (from Microsoft's announcements and
public data)  Silverlight is alive and kicking and most importantly has
healthy investment from Microsoft!

Regards 
Jose Fajardo





-Original Message-
From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com
[mailto:ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of
ozsilverlight-requ...@ozsilverlight.com
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 6:22 PM
To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com

Subject: ozsilverlight Digest, Vol 15, Issue 8

Send ozsilverlight mailing list submissions to
ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight

or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
ozsilverlight-requ...@ozsilverlight.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
ozsilverlight-ow...@ozsilverlight.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
"Re: Contents of ozsilverlight digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet? (Miguel Madero)
   2. RE: So, is Silverlight dead yet? (Darren Neimke)
   3. Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet? (Paul Stovell)


------------------

Message: 1


Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 15:34:52 +1100

From: Miguel Madero 


Subject: Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

To: ozSilverlight 
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"



Nice post. But I'm not sure MS is pushing that much (or even that
little) for WPF internally or externally.



On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Paul Stovell 
wrote:

> I took the liberty of graphing this:
>
> http://www.paulstovell.com/tool-for-the-job
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Stephen Price
wrote:
>
>> Wow. You mean, "the right tool for the right job" still applies?
>> *feigned shocked look*
>>
>> I've been saying Silverlight is for Apps and HTML is for sites for 
>> ages. Nothing changed here.
>>
>> Should be interesting how they clarify the statement. :)
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Miguel Madero 
>> wrote:
>> > I like how Shawn puts it,
>> >>
>> >> Silverlight is good for Apps; HTML is good for sites.
>> >
>> > That said, WPF is better for apps. So that leaves a handful of use 
>> > cases
>> for
>> > Silverlight, e.g. Web Apps, need of Mac support,

Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Paul Stovell]

Jose,

There was a lot of sarcasm in those images. Don't take them literally.

The second two charts are my impression of the technologies Microsoft tend
to choose. I've actually managed to avoid all of #1 and #2 in your
suggestions, so the only Silverlight application I'd ever used from
Microsoft was Live Mesh.

Paul




On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 4:48 PM, Jose Fajardo <
jose.faja...@cynergysystems.com> wrote:

>  With all respect Paul Stovell I can't make sense of what your diagrams
> are saying. I apologize if I'm reading them incorrectly BUT the way I read
> that diagram your suggesting that with Rays' exodus Silverlight has no
> champion within MS and it will literally cease to exist?!
>
> I guess if you only read blog & news articles, which pretty much relay that
> message, you'd be forgiven for thinking that way.
>
> But if you look at the facts MS are doing everything but neglecting
> Silverlight...
>
> Just look at Microsoft's use of Silverlight & Penetration Numbers...
>
> 1. New Products
> a) the new Azure portal ,
> b) Windows InTune ,
> c) Lync client are all Silverlight apps
> d) Silverlight profiling tool in VS - massive investment by MS for
> Silverlight development
> d) Lightswitch
> e) PivotControl - this has massive potential to change the data
> visualization and mining industry
> f) etc many others that I'm sure will be announced in the near
> and far future
>
>
> 2. Deep integration of Silverlight into existing core products - deep
> Silverlight integration across the business, Live and server products (eg.
> Sharepoint/ MSCRM / Live Portal / Bing all have strong Silverlight
> integration)
>
> 3. Penetration numbers
>
> ~ 96% Flash
> ~ 69% Silverlight (that’s up from 64%)
> ~ 10% (once you add up all the numbers)
>
>
>
> http://www.statowl.com/web_browser_usage_by_version.php?limit%5B%5D=ie&limit%5B%5D=firefox&limit%5B%5D=safari&limit%5B%5D=chrome&limit%5B%5D=opera&limit%5B%5D=netscape
>
>
> Again I apologize if I've miss-read your graphs BUT the way I see it based
> on the facts in front of me (from Microsoft's announcements and public
> data)  Silverlight is alive and kicking and most importantly has healthy
> investment from Microsoft!
>
> Regards
> Jose Fajardo
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com [
> mailto:ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com]
> On Behalf Of ozsilverlight-requ...@ozsilverlight.com
> Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 6:22 PM
> To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> Subject: ozsilverlight Digest, Vol 15, Issue 8
>
> Send ozsilverlight mailing list submissions to
> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         ozsilverlight-requ...@ozsilverlight.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         ozsilverlight-ow...@ozsilverlight.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
> "Re: Contents of ozsilverlight digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>1. Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet? (Miguel Madero)
>2. RE: So, is Silverlight dead yet? (Darren Neimke)
>3. Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet? (Paul Stovell)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
>
> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 15:34:52 +1100
> From: Miguel Madero 
>
> Subject: Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?
> To: ozSilverlight 
> Message-ID:
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> Nice post. But I'm not sure MS is pushing that much (or even that little)
> for WPF internally or externally.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Paul Stovell  wrote:
>
> > I took the liberty of graphing this:
> >
> > http://www.paulstovell.com/tool-for-the-job
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Stephen Price  >wrote:
> >
> >> Wow. You mean, "the right tool for the right job" still applies?
> >> *feigned shocked look*
> >>
> >> I've been saying Silverlight is for Apps and HTML is for sites for
> >> ages. Nothing changed here.
> >>
> >> Should be interesting how they clarify the statement. :)
> >>
> >> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Miguel Madero 
> >> wrote:
> >> > I like how Shawn

Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Jose Fajardo]

With all respect Paul Stovell I can't make sense of what your diagrams are 
saying. I apologize if I'm reading them incorrectly BUT the way I read that 
diagram your suggesting that with Rays' exodus Silverlight has no champion 
within MS and it will literally cease to exist?!

I guess if you only read blog & news articles, which pretty much relay that 
message, you'd be forgiven for thinking that way.

But if you look at the facts MS are doing everything but neglecting 
Silverlight...

Just look at Microsoft's use of Silverlight & Penetration Numbers...

1. New Products
a) the new Azure portal ,
b) Windows InTune ,
c) Lync client are all Silverlight apps
d) Silverlight profiling tool in VS - massive investment by MS for 
Silverlight development
d) Lightswitch
e) PivotControl - this has massive potential to change the data 
visualization and mining industry
f) etc many others that I'm sure will be announced in the near and 
far future


2. Deep integration of Silverlight into existing core products - deep 
Silverlight integration across the business, Live and server products (eg. 
Sharepoint/ MSCRM / Live Portal / Bing all have strong Silverlight integration)

3. Penetration numbers

~ 96% Flash
~ 69% Silverlight (that's up from 64%)
~ 10% (once you add up all the numbers)


http://www.statowl.com/web_browser_usage_by_version.php?limit%5B%5D=ie&limit%5B%5D=firefox&limit%5B%5D=safari&limit%5B%5D=chrome&limit%5B%5D=opera&limit%5B%5D=netscape


Again I apologize if I've miss-read your graphs BUT the way I see it based on 
the facts in front of me (from Microsoft's announcements and public data)  
Silverlight is alive and kicking and most importantly has healthy investment 
from Microsoft!

Regards
Jose Fajardo



-Original Message-
From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com 
[mailto:ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of 
ozsilverlight-requ...@ozsilverlight.com
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 6:22 PM
To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
Subject: ozsilverlight Digest, Vol 15, Issue 8

Send ozsilverlight mailing list submissions to
ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
ozsilverlight-requ...@ozsilverlight.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
ozsilverlight-ow...@ozsilverlight.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: 
Contents of ozsilverlight digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet? (Miguel Madero)
   2. RE: So, is Silverlight dead yet? (Darren Neimke)
   3. Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet? (Paul Stovell)


--------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 15:34:52 +1100
From: Miguel Madero 
Subject: Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?
To: ozSilverlight 
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Nice post. But I'm not sure MS is pushing that much (or even that little) for 
WPF internally or externally.



On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Paul Stovell  wrote:

> I took the liberty of graphing this:
>
> http://www.paulstovell.com/tool-for-the-job
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Stephen Price 
> wrote:
>
>> Wow. You mean, "the right tool for the right job" still applies?
>> *feigned shocked look*
>>
>> I've been saying Silverlight is for Apps and HTML is for sites for
>> ages. Nothing changed here.
>>
>> Should be interesting how they clarify the statement. :)
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Miguel Madero 
>> wrote:
>> > I like how Shawn puts it,
>> >>
>> >> Silverlight is good for Apps; HTML is good for sites.
>> >
>> > That said, WPF is better for apps. So that leaves a handful of use
>> > cases
>> for
>> > Silverlight, e.g. Web Apps, need of Mac support, easier deployment
>> > (not
>> much
>> > different really), WP7 (which could've been just WPF for Phone),
>> > other devices (maybe?).
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Paul Stovell
>> > 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> ...at least for non-phones:
>> >> http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/30/rip-silverlight-on-the-web/
>> >>
>> >>
>> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silve
>> rlight-has-shifted/7834
>> >> http://wildermuth.com/2010/10/30/Post-PDC_HTML5_v_Silverlight_Deba
>> >> te

RE: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Darren Neimke]

Hah!  Yes, I should have put Mobile there.  Please don't take that graph as 
being anything more than my way of informing this discussion that there are 
many different dimensions to view things through.
I also left regular expressions off of that graph, which I apologize to the 
gods of System.Text for. 


Darren neimkedarren.nei...@live.com 




Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 16:04:00 +1000
Subject: Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?
From: p...@paulstovell.com
To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com

I notice "Mobile" is missing from your graph. What are you telling us Darren? 
:) 


On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Darren Neimke  wrote:






As I just posted on Paul's blog, maybe it's all a matter of perspective?   
Seems logical that within a Silverlight technical group like this that you'd 
focus on things down at that level of detail.  From a different perspective you 
could easily see a lack of focus on any of these technologies?  Here's the type 
of view I mean:

 http://twitpic.com/32us7s


Darren neimkedarren.nei...@live.com 





From: m...@miguelmadero.com
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 15:34:52 +1100
Subject: Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?
To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com


Nice post. But I'm not sure MS is pushing that much (or even that little) for 
WPF internally or externally. 



On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Paul Stovell  wrote:



I took the liberty of graphing this:
http://www.paulstovell.com/tool-for-the-job








On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Stephen Price  wrote:




Wow. You mean, "the right tool for the right job" still applies?

*feigned shocked look*



I've been saying Silverlight is for Apps and HTML is for sites for

ages. Nothing changed here.



Should be interesting how they clarify the statement. :)



On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Miguel Madero  wrote:

> I like how Shawn puts it,

>>

>> Silverlight is good for Apps; HTML is good for sites.

>

> That said, WPF is better for apps. So that leaves a handful of use cases for

> Silverlight, e.g. Web Apps, need of Mac support, easier deployment (not much

> different really), WP7 (which could've been just WPF for Phone), other

> devices (maybe?).

>

>

>

>

> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Paul Stovell  wrote:

>>

>> ...at least for non-phones:

>> http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/30/rip-silverlight-on-the-web/

>>

>> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834





>> http://wildermuth.com/2010/10/30/Post-PDC_HTML5_v_Silverlight_Debate

>> Paul

>> ___

>> ozsilverlight mailing list

>> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com

>> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight

>>

>

>

>

> --

> Miguel A. Madero Reyes

> www.miguelmadero.com (blog)

> m...@miguelmadero.com

>

> ___

> ozsilverlight mailing list

> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com

> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight

>

>

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m...@miguelmadero.com




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Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Paul Stovell]

I notice "Mobile" is missing from your graph. What are you telling us
Darren? :)



On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Darren Neimke wrote:

>  As I just posted on Paul's blog, maybe it's all a matter of perspective? 
> [image:
> Smile]  Seems logical that within a Silverlight technical group like this
> that you'd focus on things down at that level of detail.  From a different
> perspective you could easily see a lack of focus on any of these
> technologies?  Here's the type of view I mean:
>
>  http://twitpic.com/32us7s
>
>
>
> Darren Neimke
> darren.nei...@live.com
>
>
>
>
> --
> From: m...@miguelmadero.com
> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 15:34:52 +1100
>
> Subject: Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?
> To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
>
> Nice post. But I'm not sure MS is pushing that much (or even that little)
> for WPF internally or externally.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Paul Stovell  wrote:
>
> I took the liberty of graphing this:
>
> http://www.paulstovell.com/tool-for-the-job
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Stephen Price 
> wrote:
>
> Wow. You mean, "the right tool for the right job" still applies?
> *feigned shocked look*
>
> I've been saying Silverlight is for Apps and HTML is for sites for
> ages. Nothing changed here.
>
> Should be interesting how they clarify the statement. :)
>
> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Miguel Madero  wrote:
> > I like how Shawn puts it,
> >>
> >> Silverlight is good for Apps; HTML is good for sites.
> >
> > That said, WPF is better for apps. So that leaves a handful of use cases
> for
> > Silverlight, e.g. Web Apps, need of Mac support, easier deployment (not
> much
> > different really), WP7 (which could've been just WPF for Phone), other
> > devices (maybe?).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Paul Stovell 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> ...at least for non-phones:
> >> http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/30/rip-silverlight-on-the-web/
> >>
> >>
> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834
> >> http://wildermuth.com/2010/10/30/Post-PDC_HTML5_v_Silverlight_Debate
> >> Paul
> >> ___
> >> ozsilverlight mailing list
> >> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> >> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Miguel A. Madero Reyes
> > www.miguelmadero.com (blog)
> > m...@miguelmadero.com
> >
> > ___
> > ozsilverlight mailing list
> > ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> > http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
> >
> >
> ___
> ozsilverlight mailing list
> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>
>
>
>
> --
> Paul Stovell
>
> ___
> ozsilverlight mailing list
> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>
>
>
>
> --
> Miguel A. Madero Reyes
> www.miguelmadero.com (blog)
> m...@miguelmadero.com
>
> ___ ozsilverlight mailing list
> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
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>
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>


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RE: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Darren Neimke]

As I just posted on Paul's blog, maybe it's all a matter of perspective?   
Seems logical that within a Silverlight technical group like this that you'd 
focus on things down at that level of detail.  From a different perspective you 
could easily see a lack of focus on any of these technologies?  Here's the type 
of view I mean:
 http://twitpic.com/32us7s


Darren neimkedarren.nei...@live.com 




From: m...@miguelmadero.com
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 15:34:52 +1100
Subject: Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?
To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com

Nice post. But I'm not sure MS is pushing that much (or even that little) for 
WPF internally or externally. 



On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Paul Stovell  wrote:


I took the liberty of graphing this:
http://www.paulstovell.com/tool-for-the-job







On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Stephen Price  wrote:



Wow. You mean, "the right tool for the right job" still applies?

*feigned shocked look*



I've been saying Silverlight is for Apps and HTML is for sites for

ages. Nothing changed here.



Should be interesting how they clarify the statement. :)



On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Miguel Madero  wrote:

> I like how Shawn puts it,

>>

>> Silverlight is good for Apps; HTML is good for sites.

>

> That said, WPF is better for apps. So that leaves a handful of use cases for

> Silverlight, e.g. Web Apps, need of Mac support, easier deployment (not much

> different really), WP7 (which could've been just WPF for Phone), other

> devices (maybe?).

>

>

>

>

> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Paul Stovell  wrote:

>>

>> ...at least for non-phones:

>> http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/30/rip-silverlight-on-the-web/

>>

>> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834




>> http://wildermuth.com/2010/10/30/Post-PDC_HTML5_v_Silverlight_Debate

>> Paul

>> ___

>> ozsilverlight mailing list

>> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com

>> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight

>>

>

>

>

> --

> Miguel A. Madero Reyes

> www.miguelmadero.com (blog)

> m...@miguelmadero.com

>

> ___

> ozsilverlight mailing list

> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com

> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight

>

>

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m...@miguelmadero.com



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Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Miguel Madero]

Nice post. But I'm not sure MS is pushing that much (or even that little)
for WPF internally or externally.



On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Paul Stovell  wrote:

> I took the liberty of graphing this:
>
> http://www.paulstovell.com/tool-for-the-job
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Stephen Price 
> wrote:
>
>> Wow. You mean, "the right tool for the right job" still applies?
>> *feigned shocked look*
>>
>> I've been saying Silverlight is for Apps and HTML is for sites for
>> ages. Nothing changed here.
>>
>> Should be interesting how they clarify the statement. :)
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Miguel Madero 
>> wrote:
>> > I like how Shawn puts it,
>> >>
>> >> Silverlight is good for Apps; HTML is good for sites.
>> >
>> > That said, WPF is better for apps. So that leaves a handful of use cases
>> for
>> > Silverlight, e.g. Web Apps, need of Mac support, easier deployment (not
>> much
>> > different really), WP7 (which could've been just WPF for Phone), other
>> > devices (maybe?).
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Paul Stovell 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> ...at least for non-phones:
>> >> http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/30/rip-silverlight-on-the-web/
>> >>
>> >>
>> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834
>> >> http://wildermuth.com/2010/10/30/Post-PDC_HTML5_v_Silverlight_Debate
>> >> Paul
>> >> ___
>> >> ozsilverlight mailing list
>> >> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
>> >> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Miguel A. Madero Reyes
>> > www.miguelmadero.com (blog)
>> > m...@miguelmadero.com
>> >
>> > ___
>> > ozsilverlight mailing list
>> > ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
>> > http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>> >
>> >
>> ___
>> ozsilverlight mailing list
>> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
>> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Paul Stovell
>
> ___
> ozsilverlight mailing list
> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>
>


-- 
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Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Scott Barnes]

DevConnections in Las Vegas this week, my old boss right now is no
doubt headphones in, staring at Microsoft Word agonizing over which
adjective to use in the 2nd paragraph meanwhile his boss is probably
having a few pre-Scott Guthrie drinks with The Gu himself working out
the finer reactive points to what is going to be said around
commitment in the future of Silverlight.

Scott Gu will get up on stage, do his Windows Phone 7 or bust spiel,
followed by a commitment speech that then rolls out a few partners
here and there to illustrate success or give all a baseline "we're
still in this for the long haul" (eBay app you - jose - guys wrote
will no doubt make a strong appearance - if not, it should). The crowd
will cheer, tech journos will respond with their thought piece or two,
as well its news atm, so its got a heartbeat and you run with it. More
blog posts / tweets will follow and then everything may or may not
simmer down hopefully if nobody else says anything too stupid.

After that you've got the added blessing of Christmas Break, so the
slate can be wiped clean for a bit and the pressure will be off.
Pretty soon you'll see this thing rear its ugly head around MIX2011,
and again, there will be more questions than answers and probably will
be a good time to rehash or dust off the "Silverlight is dead" speech
again. Then you'll probably see the preview to windows phone 7 vNext
(copy paste etc), followed by Silverlight 5 and where that bus is
heading followed with a big mighty IF some hints about how WPF isn't
dead with some commentary or two about how Pete Brown's recent blog
post is still a reality and blah blah.

Problem with all this is that its not a question of who's right or
wrong, its a question of how well Microsoft can retain focus on
Silverlight beyond a next release. How well it can put distance
between it and HTML5 as this conversation is only just at the tip of
beginning. Adobe have made strong plays with HTML5 being a tool ready
company, Microsoft HAS to respond soon, so you'll see some talk about
how Expression Blend / Visual Studio + ASP.NET  etc is likely to play
a role and so on...

Loyalty to Microsoft is ok, but to assume everyone isn't doing their
research isn't fair - the problem with it all is we have far to much
conflicting data to do any accurate research and whilst I get internal
emails with "I hate this guy" attached to it followed by some long
thread about the futures of WPF/SL/HTML5 etc even then i find
separating fact from fiction a struggle. I pitty any who have to do
this via public means only as god help them.

I told a team member early today "You guys in Las Vegas this week is
like watching a solider being handed a rape whistle and told to march
straight into the front lines of a heavily armored tank division...
good luck, and i'll be thinking of you" :)

On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:19 PM, Jose Fajardo
 wrote:
>
> I personally am keeping quiet on the public front because
>
> 1. I'm smart enough to know that questionable people will try to spin
> whatever I say into a HTML versus Silverlight argument.
> 2. I know that MS will respond with more solid messaging that reaffirms
> their commitment to Silverlight into the future. It's not going anywhere
>
> People have taken some of Bob Muglias statements and completely ignored
> others.
>
> Journalists I can understand why they'd do it, to get sensationalist stories
> and page clicks.
>
> BUT tech people whom I will not mention, who pride themselves as
> knowledgeable people that do due diligence as part of their day jobs, why
> they have skipped some of these quotes is beyond me. To come to "Silverlight
> is dead" conclusions based on 1 or two choice quotes, poor form (especially
> if you do the research)!!
>
> And to even think that a change in direction for Silverlight signifies it's
> death, again its beyond me how you can conclude that. Companies all the time
> re-jig there vision and mission as there companies mature. Silverlight is
> maturing it’s a good thing!
>
> Microsoft's response will set the messaging straight, then you will get the
> people that will either believe MS's message or not. Those that don't
> believe are probably those that have never believed in the power of
> Silverlight, and there's not much we can do about them.
>
> Me I continue to base my career on this technology and I am still 110%
> confident on it being a dominant and rich technology for many, many years to
> come!
>
> Note: This is the one and only email from me on this, don't expect me to
> reply to anyone until MS comes out with their response!
>
> Jose Fajardo
>
>
> Note:  The information contained in this message and any attachment to it is
> privileged, confidential and protected from disclosure.  If the reader of
> this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent
> responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are
> hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this
> co

RE: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Darren Neimke]

>> How do you form those opinions?

I start by learning what not to listen to.


Darren neimkedarren.nei...@live.com 




Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 13:06:24 +1000
Subject: Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?
From: p...@paulstovell.com
To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com

Hi Darren,
How do you form those opinions? Do you ignore the quote from Bob Muglia 
completely ("what does a Microsoft VP know about anything Microsoft makes 
anyway?"), or do you just ignore the opinion pieces over the top of it?

We're in such a vendor-dominated ecosystem, I worry that regardless of what we 
think about the technology, it's the opinions in the market that matter most 
when deciding whether something is a good long-term bet.  

Paul



On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Darren Neimke  wrote:






Thanks Scott, I haven't read all of your reply yet, but I did skim through it 
quickly.  By the way, I knew that you'd win the award for the longest answer :-)

My judgement is that, regardless of what the Win8, 9, or 10 team thinks.  
Regardless of what Mary, Peter and Paul think.  At the end of the day, it's 
only my opinion that really matters to me - and I feel perfectly capable of 
having a clear view based on what I've seen and heard for myself.  However, I 
do accept that there will be people - both inside and outside of Microsoft - 
who do feel the need to be given their opinions by the aforementioned crowd.


Darren neimkedarren.nei...@live.com 





CC: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
From: scott.bar...@gmail.com

Subject: Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 12:52:46 +1000
To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com


I guess you can believe the below, clench your fists and sing in a righteous 
voice "viva la silverlight" walk away thinking all this PR and community 
aggravation is misguided and that the highest ranked executive aside from 
ballmer himself got it wrong despite being briefed on silverlight every 3 
months ranging on topics from ubiquity to roadmap selection criteria. Sure I 
can buy that but to sit and swallow that this is all just a misguided youth 
getting all sugary high from some bad journalists and how blind loyalty to the 
Microsoft ux strategy that has yet to really be shown despite constant signs of 
abandonment throughout the last 2 years is now a taboo topic of choice... Yeah 
that I can't buy just yet.

Win8 team don't want silverlight. I want it, we all on this list want it. Wpf 
is dead, I love working with wpf and I do so very day and think myself lucky .. 
But it's dead in terms of marketing and future investment..

The reality is this, right now the eyeball economy is bring used by factions 
internally as a beating stick on "why se should or shouldn't continue to 
invest" - I've personally seen 3 separate threads leaked with that pulse in 
place.

Inside the teams we don't get to see data about how you all adopted it etc and 
so public opinion would often sway decisions ... As pathetic as that sounds.
I sang loud and clear wpf is dead, journos picked up on it and ran with it. A 
month later the wpf team are working hard to proove my theories wrong. It's not 
like it's the first hey heard about it... It just finally got public momentum.

As for Microsoft learning that the public can't be trusted with honesty? Hate 
to be the one that breaks this to all but that's the default posture held by 
majority of Microsoft teams.. Hence why MVP summits are often just a mix/pdc 
circle jerk with a different name..

Hate this all u like but this is doing a lot of good internally on silverlight 
vs HTML5 budget forecasts and resource allocations for the future.. Which means 
more toys for you all to play with if it sways to silverlights favor.

There isn't an unlimited supply of engineers / marketing inside Microsoft .. 
Internally it cab become a zero sum game ;)
--Sent from my mini iPad nano(excuse my spilling and grammar as I have giant 
man like fingers and this device as small keys)

On 01/11/2010, at 12:27 PM, Darren Neimke  wrote:


It's worse than that.  If anything, think about what *we've* effectively just 
told Microsoft:
If you ever dare to try to tell us the truth, or give us information which is 
in the least bit honest, we will beat you up with a fu#$ing great big stick! 


Darren neimkedarren.nei...@live.com 





From: crai...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 13:24:34 +1100
Subject: Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com

I agree. This whole Silverlight debate is a beat up over nothing.


On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Darren Neimke  wrote:








There's a couple of things here that I think are really, really sad.  
Firstly, a department within Microsoft comes out at an event, and they use 
plain English to show that they are supporting an exciting new technology.  
Next, a couple of groups - who make money from ey

RE: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Paul Du Bois]

Yes some of the SL articles and blogs out there are inflammatory and miss the 
point.

However it is disturbing when one year PDC is all about Silverlight and the 
following year the technology becomes a footnote and now HTML5 is all the rage.
It just makes MS look erratic and reactive - it's hard to feel comfortable 
about their vision when great technologies like Silverlight fall out of focus 
so fast.
Why the hell does PDC have to be so single minded?
Why not spread the love across HTML5, Silverlight and even WPF?
Seems all MS does these days is cheerlead the next big thing while disregarding 
the here and now.

If PDC had given a little more love (i.e. sessions) to Silverlight and put out 
a clear message that Silverlight still has a place on PC/browser (e.g. 
Enterprise LOB apps), then there wouldn't be all this fuss.


- Paul Du Bois

From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com 
[mailto:ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of Darren Neimke
Sent: Monday, 1 November 2010 12:27 PM
To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
Subject: RE: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

It's worse than that.  If anything, think about what *we've* effectively just 
told Microsoft:

If you ever dare to try to tell us the truth, or give us information which is 
in the least bit honest, we will beat you up with a fu#$ing great big stick!


Darren Neimke
darren.nei...@live.com<mailto:darren.nei...@live.com>



From: crai...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 13:24:34 +1100
Subject: Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?
To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com

I agree. This whole Silverlight debate is a beat up over nothing.
On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Darren Neimke 
mailto:darren.nei...@live.com>> wrote:
There's a couple of things here that I think are really, really sad.

Firstly, a department within Microsoft comes out at an event, and they use 
plain English to show that they are supporting an exciting new technology.  
Next, a couple of groups - who make money from eyeballs - come out with 
inflammatory comments about what has been said.  Finally, people like *you* 
(whomever is reading this right now) give justification to the comments made by 
those groups by going on about it.

So in short,


 1.  I don't really care who Mary Foley or TechCrunch are, or what qualifies 
them to publish stories with such an audacious and misleading title as: 
"Microsoft: Our strategy with Silverlight has shifted"
 2.  Every minute and therefore money (via our eyeballs) we give to Mary and 
TechCrunch, is a minute that is not spent working out how to get the best out 
of these 2 technologies
 3.  Think about the people who are writing about this "debate" (debate?  
really?) and ask yourself what their motive is for writing in the first place



Darren Neimke
darren.nei...@live.com<mailto:darren.nei...@live.com>



Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 10:51:38 +1000
Subject: So, is Silverlight dead yet?
From: p...@paulstovell.com<mailto:p...@paulstovell.com>
To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com<mailto:ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com>

...at least for non-phones:

http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/30/rip-silverlight-on-the-web/
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834
http://wildermuth.com/2010/10/30/Post-PDC_HTML5_v_Silverlight_Debate

Paul

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RE: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Jose Fajardo]

I personally am keeping quiet on the public front because

1. I'm smart enough to know that questionable people will try to spin whatever 
I say into a HTML versus Silverlight argument.
2. I know that MS will respond with more solid messaging that reaffirms their 
commitment to Silverlight into the future. It's not going anywhere

People have taken some of Bob Muglias statements and completely ignored others.

Journalists I can understand why they'd do it, to get sensationalist stories 
and page clicks.

BUT tech people whom I will not mention, who pride themselves as knowledgeable 
people that do due diligence as part of their day jobs, why they have skipped 
some of these quotes is beyond me. To come to "Silverlight is dead" conclusions 
based on 1 or two choice quotes, poor form (especially if you do the research)!!

And to even think that a change in direction for Silverlight signifies it's 
death, again its beyond me how you can conclude that. Companies all the time 
re-jig there vision and mission as there companies mature. Silverlight is 
maturing it's a good thing!

Microsoft's response will set the messaging straight, then you will get the 
people that will either believe MS's message or not. Those that don't believe 
are probably those that have never believed in the power of Silverlight, and 
there's not much we can do about them.

Me I continue to base my career on this technology and I am still 110% 
confident on it being a dominant and rich technology for many, many years to 
come!

Note: This is the one and only email from me on this, don't expect me to reply 
to anyone until MS comes out with their response!

Jose Fajardo




Note:  The information contained in this message and any attachment to it is 
privileged, confidential and protected from disclosure.  If the reader of this 
message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for 
delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that 
any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly 
prohibited.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify 
the sender immediately by replying to the message, and please delete it from 
your system.  Thank you.  Cynergy Systems.

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Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Scott Barnes]

+1 agreed with your response :)



On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:11 PM, Paul Stovell  wrote:
>>> Ruby on Rails did more with less tech and less marketing budget, wtf
>>> can't these two products get some healthy wins
> I suspect it is because DHH doesn't run from news report to news report
> telling people "Ruby on Rails is the future, no, Erlang, no, Ruby on Rails,
> no, Django". It's all about confidence in the market.
> Perhaps you should change that sentence to "Ruby on Rails did
> more precisely because it has less marketing budget". Less hype, less spin,
> less uncertainty if/when they change their mind on important matters.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:04 PM, Scott Barnes  wrote:
>>
>> sorry :) i do feel a bit way to passionate about this topic lately..
>> bottom line is, i just dont like the idea SL/WPF should be parked in
>> the "we may come back to this later" bay, all because of a bad
>> marketing / expectation calibration set of issues..
>>
>> Good tech should prevail. Ruby on Rails did more with less tech and
>> less marketing budget, wtf can't these two products get some healthy
>> wins :D ...
>>
>> Anyway :D
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Darren Neimke 
>> wrote:
>> > Thanks Scott, I haven't read all of your reply yet, but I did skim
>> > through
>> > it quickly.  By the way, I knew that you'd win the award for the longest
>> > answer :-)
>> >
>> > My judgement is that, regardless of what the Win8, 9, or 10 team thinks.
>> >  Regardless of what Mary, Peter and Paul think.  At the end of the day,
>> > it's
>> > only my opinion that really matters to me - and I feel perfectly capable
>> > of
>> > having a clear view based on what I've seen and heard for myself.
>> >  However,
>> > I do accept that there will be people - both inside and outside of
>> > Microsoft
>> > - who do feel the need to be given their opinions by the aforementioned
>> > crowd.
>> >
>> > Darren Neimke
>> > darren.nei...@live.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 
>> > CC: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
>> > From: scott.bar...@gmail.com
>> > Subject: Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?
>> > Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 12:52:46 +1000
>> > To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
>> >
>> > I guess you can believe the below, clench your fists and sing in a
>> > righteous
>> > voice "viva la silverlight" walk away thinking all this PR and community
>> > aggravation is misguided and that the highest ranked executive aside
>> > from
>> > ballmer himself got it wrong despite being briefed on silverlight every
>> > 3
>> > months ranging on topics from ubiquity to roadmap selection criteria.
>> > Sure I
>> > can buy that but to sit and swallow that this is all just a misguided
>> > youth
>> > getting all sugary high from some bad journalists and how blind loyalty
>> > to
>> > the Microsoft ux strategy that has yet to really be shown despite
>> > constant
>> > signs of abandonment throughout the last 2 years is now a taboo topic of
>> > choice... Yeah that I can't buy just yet.
>> > Win8 team don't want silverlight. I want it, we all on this list want
>> > it.
>> > Wpf is dead, I love working with wpf and I do so very day and think
>> > myself
>> > lucky .. But it's dead in terms of marketing and future investment..
>> > The reality is this, right now the eyeball economy is bring used by
>> > factions
>> > internally as a beating stick on "why se should or shouldn't continue to
>> > invest" - I've personally seen 3 separate threads leaked with that pulse
>> > in
>> > place.
>> > Inside the teams we don't get to see data about how you all adopted it
>> > etc
>> > and so public opinion would often sway decisions ... As pathetic as that
>> > sounds.
>> > I sang loud and clear wpf is dead, journos picked up on it and ran with
>> > it.
>> > A month later the wpf team are working hard to proove my theories wrong.
>> > It's not like it's the first hey heard about it... It just finally got
>> > public momentum.
>> > As for Microsoft learning that the public can't be trusted with honesty?
>> > Hate to be the one that breaks this to all but that&#

Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Paul Stovell]

>> Ruby on Rails did more with less tech and less marketing budget, wtf
can't these two products get some healthy wins

I suspect it is because DHH doesn't run from news report to news report
telling people "Ruby on Rails is the future, no, Erlang, no, Ruby on Rails,
no, Django". It's all about confidence in the market.

Perhaps you should change that sentence to "Ruby on Rails did more *
precisely because* it has less marketing budget". Less hype, less spin, less
uncertainty if/when they change their mind on important matters.




On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:04 PM, Scott Barnes  wrote:

> sorry :) i do feel a bit way to passionate about this topic lately..
> bottom line is, i just dont like the idea SL/WPF should be parked in
> the "we may come back to this later" bay, all because of a bad
> marketing / expectation calibration set of issues..
>
> Good tech should prevail. Ruby on Rails did more with less tech and
> less marketing budget, wtf can't these two products get some healthy
> wins :D ...
>
> Anyway :D
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Darren Neimke 
> wrote:
> > Thanks Scott, I haven't read all of your reply yet, but I did skim
> through
> > it quickly.  By the way, I knew that you'd win the award for the longest
> > answer :-)
> >
> > My judgement is that, regardless of what the Win8, 9, or 10 team thinks.
> >  Regardless of what Mary, Peter and Paul think.  At the end of the day,
> it's
> > only my opinion that really matters to me - and I feel perfectly capable
> of
> > having a clear view based on what I've seen and heard for myself.
>  However,
> > I do accept that there will be people - both inside and outside of
> Microsoft
> > - who do feel the need to be given their opinions by the aforementioned
> > crowd.
> >
> > Darren Neimke
> > darren.nei...@live.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> > CC: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> > From: scott.bar...@gmail.com
> > Subject: Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?
> > Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 12:52:46 +1000
> > To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> >
> > I guess you can believe the below, clench your fists and sing in a
> righteous
> > voice "viva la silverlight" walk away thinking all this PR and community
> > aggravation is misguided and that the highest ranked executive aside from
> > ballmer himself got it wrong despite being briefed on silverlight every 3
> > months ranging on topics from ubiquity to roadmap selection criteria.
> Sure I
> > can buy that but to sit and swallow that this is all just a misguided
> youth
> > getting all sugary high from some bad journalists and how blind loyalty
> to
> > the Microsoft ux strategy that has yet to really be shown despite
> constant
> > signs of abandonment throughout the last 2 years is now a taboo topic of
> > choice... Yeah that I can't buy just yet.
> > Win8 team don't want silverlight. I want it, we all on this list want it.
> > Wpf is dead, I love working with wpf and I do so very day and think
> myself
> > lucky .. But it's dead in terms of marketing and future investment..
> > The reality is this, right now the eyeball economy is bring used by
> factions
> > internally as a beating stick on "why se should or shouldn't continue to
> > invest" - I've personally seen 3 separate threads leaked with that pulse
> in
> > place.
> > Inside the teams we don't get to see data about how you all adopted it
> etc
> > and so public opinion would often sway decisions ... As pathetic as that
> > sounds.
> > I sang loud and clear wpf is dead, journos picked up on it and ran with
> it.
> > A month later the wpf team are working hard to proove my theories wrong.
> > It's not like it's the first hey heard about it... It just finally got
> > public momentum.
> > As for Microsoft learning that the public can't be trusted with honesty?
> > Hate to be the one that breaks this to all but that's the default posture
> > held by majority of Microsoft teams.. Hence why MVP summits are often
> just a
> > mix/pdc circle jerk with a different name..
> > Hate this all u like but this is doing a lot of good internally on
> > silverlight vs HTML5 budget forecasts and resource allocations for the
> > future.. Which means more toys for you all to play with if it sways to
> > silverlights favor.
> > There isn't an unlimited supply of engineers / marketing inside Microsoft
> ..
> > Internally it cab become a zero sum game

Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[David Connors]

On 1 November 2010 11:42, Joseph  wrote:

> Yeah - it will be interesting to see how the spindoctors work this without
> the president of devdiv losing face.
>

Did you watch the keynote:
http://bit.ly/akeK7Q

SFA about SL in it. They pushed the hell out of IE9 (particularly GPU
acceleration) and HTML 5.

-- 
*David Connors* | da...@codify.com | www.codify.com
Software Engineer
Codify Pty Ltd
Phone: +61 (7) 3210 6268 | Facsimile: +61 (7) 3210 6269 | Mobile: +61 417
189 363
V-Card: https://www.codify.com/cards/davidconnors
Address Info: https://www.codify.com/contact
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Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Paul Stovell]

Hi Darren,

How do you form those opinions? Do you ignore the quote from Bob Muglia
completely ("what does a Microsoft VP know about anything Microsoft makes
anyway?"), or do you just ignore the opinion pieces over the top of it?

We're in such a vendor-dominated ecosystem, I worry that regardless of what
we think about the technology, it's the opinions in the market that matter
most when deciding whether something is a good long-term bet.

Paul




On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Darren Neimke wrote:

>  Thanks Scott, I haven't read all of your reply yet, but I did skim through
> it quickly.  By the way, I knew that you'd win the award for the longest
> answer :-)
>
> My judgement is that, regardless of what the Win8, 9, or 10 team thinks.
>  Regardless of what Mary, Peter and Paul think.  At the end of the day, it's
> only my opinion that really matters to me - and I feel perfectly capable of
> having a clear view based on what I've seen and heard for myself.  However,
> I do accept that there will be people - both inside and outside of Microsoft
> - who do feel the need to be given their opinions by the aforementioned
> crowd.
>
>
> Darren Neimke
> darren.nei...@live.com
>
>
>
>
> --------------
> CC: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> From: scott.bar...@gmail.com
>
> Subject: Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?
> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 12:52:46 +1000
>
> To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
>
> I guess you can believe the below, clench your fists and sing in a
> righteous voice "viva la silverlight" walk away thinking all this PR and
> community aggravation is misguided and that the highest ranked executive
> aside from ballmer himself got it wrong despite being briefed on silverlight
> every 3 months ranging on topics from ubiquity to roadmap selection
> criteria. Sure I can buy that but to sit and swallow that this is all just a
> misguided youth getting all sugary high from some bad journalists and how
> blind loyalty to the Microsoft ux strategy that has yet to really be shown
> despite constant signs of abandonment throughout the last 2 years is now a
> taboo topic of choice... Yeah that I can't buy just yet.
>
> Win8 team don't want silverlight. I want it, we all on this list want it.
> Wpf is dead, I love working with wpf and I do so very day and think myself
> lucky .. But it's dead in terms of marketing and future investment..
>
> The reality is this, right now the eyeball economy is bring used by
> factions internally as a beating stick on "why se should or shouldn't
> continue to invest" - I've personally seen 3 separate threads leaked with
> that pulse in place.
>
> Inside the teams we don't get to see data about how you all adopted it etc
> and so public opinion would often sway decisions ... As pathetic as that
> sounds.
>
> I sang loud and clear wpf is dead, journos picked up on it and ran with it.
> A month later the wpf team are working hard to proove my theories wrong.
> It's not like it's the first hey heard about it... It just finally got
> public momentum.
>
> As for Microsoft learning that the public can't be trusted with honesty?
> Hate to be the one that breaks this to all but that's the default posture
> held by majority of Microsoft teams.. Hence why MVP summits are often just a
> mix/pdc circle jerk with a different name..
>
> Hate this all u like but this is doing a lot of good internally on
> silverlight vs HTML5 budget forecasts and resource allocations for the
> future.. Which means more toys for you all to play with if it sways to
> silverlights favor.
>
> There isn't an unlimited supply of engineers / marketing inside Microsoft
> .. Internally it cab become a zero sum game ;)
>
> --
> Sent from my mini iPad nano
> (excuse my spilling and grammar as I have giant man like fingers and this
> device as small keys)
>
> On 01/11/2010, at 12:27 PM, Darren Neimke  wrote:
>
> It's worse than that.  If anything, think about what *we've* effectively
> just told Microsoft:
>
> *If you ever dare to try to tell us the truth, or give us information
> which is in the least bit honest, we will beat you up with a fu#$ing great
> big stick! *
>
>
>
> Darren Neimke
> darren.nei...@live.com
>
>
>
>
> --
> From: crai...@gmail.com
> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 13:24:34 +1100
> Subject: Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?
> To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
>
> I agree. This whole Silverlight debate is a beat up over nothing.
>
> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Darren Neimke < 
> darren.nei...@live.com> wrote:
>
>  There&#x

Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Scott Barnes]

sorry :) i do feel a bit way to passionate about this topic lately..
bottom line is, i just dont like the idea SL/WPF should be parked in
the "we may come back to this later" bay, all because of a bad
marketing / expectation calibration set of issues..

Good tech should prevail. Ruby on Rails did more with less tech and
less marketing budget, wtf can't these two products get some healthy
wins :D ...

Anyway :D


On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Darren Neimke  wrote:
> Thanks Scott, I haven't read all of your reply yet, but I did skim through
> it quickly.  By the way, I knew that you'd win the award for the longest
> answer :-)
>
> My judgement is that, regardless of what the Win8, 9, or 10 team thinks.
>  Regardless of what Mary, Peter and Paul think.  At the end of the day, it's
> only my opinion that really matters to me - and I feel perfectly capable of
> having a clear view based on what I've seen and heard for myself.  However,
> I do accept that there will be people - both inside and outside of Microsoft
> - who do feel the need to be given their opinions by the aforementioned
> crowd.
>
> Darren Neimke
> darren.nei...@live.com
>
>
>
>
> ____________
> CC: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> From: scott.bar...@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?
> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 12:52:46 +1000
> To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
>
> I guess you can believe the below, clench your fists and sing in a righteous
> voice "viva la silverlight" walk away thinking all this PR and community
> aggravation is misguided and that the highest ranked executive aside from
> ballmer himself got it wrong despite being briefed on silverlight every 3
> months ranging on topics from ubiquity to roadmap selection criteria. Sure I
> can buy that but to sit and swallow that this is all just a misguided youth
> getting all sugary high from some bad journalists and how blind loyalty to
> the Microsoft ux strategy that has yet to really be shown despite constant
> signs of abandonment throughout the last 2 years is now a taboo topic of
> choice... Yeah that I can't buy just yet.
> Win8 team don't want silverlight. I want it, we all on this list want it.
> Wpf is dead, I love working with wpf and I do so very day and think myself
> lucky .. But it's dead in terms of marketing and future investment..
> The reality is this, right now the eyeball economy is bring used by factions
> internally as a beating stick on "why se should or shouldn't continue to
> invest" - I've personally seen 3 separate threads leaked with that pulse in
> place.
> Inside the teams we don't get to see data about how you all adopted it etc
> and so public opinion would often sway decisions ... As pathetic as that
> sounds.
> I sang loud and clear wpf is dead, journos picked up on it and ran with it.
> A month later the wpf team are working hard to proove my theories wrong.
> It's not like it's the first hey heard about it... It just finally got
> public momentum.
> As for Microsoft learning that the public can't be trusted with honesty?
> Hate to be the one that breaks this to all but that's the default posture
> held by majority of Microsoft teams.. Hence why MVP summits are often just a
> mix/pdc circle jerk with a different name..
> Hate this all u like but this is doing a lot of good internally on
> silverlight vs HTML5 budget forecasts and resource allocations for the
> future.. Which means more toys for you all to play with if it sways to
> silverlights favor.
> There isn't an unlimited supply of engineers / marketing inside Microsoft ..
> Internally it cab become a zero sum game ;)
> --
> Sent from my mini iPad nano
> (excuse my spilling and grammar as I have giant man like fingers and this
> device as small keys)
> On 01/11/2010, at 12:27 PM, Darren Neimke  wrote:
>
> It's worse than that.  If anything, think about what *we've* effectively
> just told Microsoft:
>
> If you ever dare to try to tell us the truth, or give us information which
> is in the least bit honest, we will beat you up with a fu#$ing great big
> stick!
>
> Darren Neimke
> darren.nei...@live.com
>
>
>
>
> 
> From: crai...@gmail.com
> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 13:24:34 +1100
> Subject: Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?
> To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
>
> I agree. This whole Silverlight debate is a beat up over nothing.
>
> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Darren Neimke 
> wrote:
>
> There's a couple of things here that I think are really, really sad.
> Firstly, a department within Microsoft comes out at an event, and they use
>

RE: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Darren Neimke]

Thanks Scott, I haven't read all of your reply yet, but I did skim through it 
quickly.  By the way, I knew that you'd win the award for the longest answer :-)

My judgement is that, regardless of what the Win8, 9, or 10 team thinks.  
Regardless of what Mary, Peter and Paul think.  At the end of the day, it's 
only my opinion that really matters to me - and I feel perfectly capable of 
having a clear view based on what I've seen and heard for myself.  However, I 
do accept that there will be people - both inside and outside of Microsoft - 
who do feel the need to be given their opinions by the aforementioned crowd.

Darren neimkedarren.nei...@live.com 




CC: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
From: scott.bar...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 12:52:46 +1000
To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com

I guess you can believe the below, clench your fists and sing in a righteous 
voice "viva la silverlight" walk away thinking all this PR and community 
aggravation is misguided and that the highest ranked executive aside from 
ballmer himself got it wrong despite being briefed on silverlight every 3 
months ranging on topics from ubiquity to roadmap selection criteria. Sure I 
can buy that but to sit and swallow that this is all just a misguided youth 
getting all sugary high from some bad journalists and how blind loyalty to the 
Microsoft ux strategy that has yet to really be shown despite constant signs of 
abandonment throughout the last 2 years is now a taboo topic of choice... Yeah 
that I can't buy just yet.
Win8 team don't want silverlight. I want it, we all on this list want it. Wpf 
is dead, I love working with wpf and I do so very day and think myself lucky .. 
But it's dead in terms of marketing and future investment..
The reality is this, right now the eyeball economy is bring used by factions 
internally as a beating stick on "why se should or shouldn't continue to 
invest" - I've personally seen 3 separate threads leaked with that pulse in 
place.
Inside the teams we don't get to see data about how you all adopted it etc and 
so public opinion would often sway decisions ... As pathetic as that sounds.
I sang loud and clear wpf is dead, journos picked up on it and ran with it. A 
month later the wpf team are working hard to proove my theories wrong. It's not 
like it's the first hey heard about it... It just finally got public momentum.
As for Microsoft learning that the public can't be trusted with honesty? Hate 
to be the one that breaks this to all but that's the default posture held by 
majority of Microsoft teams.. Hence why MVP summits are often just a mix/pdc 
circle jerk with a different name..
Hate this all u like but this is doing a lot of good internally on silverlight 
vs HTML5 budget forecasts and resource allocations for the future.. Which means 
more toys for you all to play with if it sways to silverlights favor.
There isn't an unlimited supply of engineers / marketing inside Microsoft .. 
Internally it cab become a zero sum game ;)
--Sent from my mini iPad nano(excuse my spilling and grammar as I have giant 
man like fingers and this device as small keys)
On 01/11/2010, at 12:27 PM, Darren Neimke  wrote:


It's worse than that.  If anything, think about what *we've* effectively just 
told Microsoft:
If you ever dare to try to tell us the truth, or give us information which is 
in the least bit honest, we will beat you up with a fu#$ing great big stick! 

Darren neimkedarren.nei...@live.com 




From: crai...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 13:24:34 +1100
Subject: Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?
To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com

I agree. This whole Silverlight debate is a beat up over nothing.

On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Darren Neimke  wrote:







There's a couple of things here that I think are really, really sad.  
Firstly, a department within Microsoft comes out at an event, and they use 
plain English to show that they are supporting an exciting new technology.  
Next, a couple of groups - who make money from eyeballs - come out with 
inflammatory comments about what has been said.  Finally, people like *you* 
(whomever is reading this right now) give justification to the comments made by 
those groups by going on about it.


So in short, 
I don't really care who Mary Foley or TechCrunch are, or what qualifies them to 
publish stories with such an audacious and misleading title as: "Microsoft: Our 
strategy with Silverlight has shifted"

Every minute and therefore money (via our eyeballs) we give to Mary and 
TechCrunch, is a minute that is not spent working out how to get the best out 
of these 2 technologiesThink about the people who are writing about this 
"debate" (debate?  really?) and ask yourself what their motive is for writing 
in the first place




Darren neimkedarren.nei...@

Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Scott Barnes]

I guess you can believe the below, clench your fists and sing in a righteous 
voice "viva la silverlight" walk away thinking all this PR and community 
aggravation is misguided and that the highest ranked executive aside from 
ballmer himself got it wrong despite being briefed on silverlight every 3 
months ranging on topics from ubiquity to roadmap selection criteria. Sure I 
can buy that but to sit and swallow that this is all just a misguided youth 
getting all sugary high from some bad journalists and how blind loyalty to the 
Microsoft ux strategy that has yet to really be shown despite constant signs of 
abandonment throughout the last 2 years is now a taboo topic of choice... Yeah 
that I can't buy just yet.

Win8 team don't want silverlight. I want it, we all on this list want it. Wpf 
is dead, I love working with wpf and I do so very day and think myself lucky .. 
But it's dead in terms of marketing and future investment..

The reality is this, right now the eyeball economy is bring used by factions 
internally as a beating stick on "why se should or shouldn't continue to 
invest" - I've personally seen 3 separate threads leaked with that pulse in 
place.

Inside the teams we don't get to see data about how you all adopted it etc and 
so public opinion would often sway decisions ... As pathetic as that sounds.

I sang loud and clear wpf is dead, journos picked up on it and ran with it. A 
month later the wpf team are working hard to proove my theories wrong. It's not 
like it's the first hey heard about it... It just finally got public momentum.

As for Microsoft learning that the public can't be trusted with honesty? Hate 
to be the one that breaks this to all but that's the default posture held by 
majority of Microsoft teams.. Hence why MVP summits are often just a mix/pdc 
circle jerk with a different name..

Hate this all u like but this is doing a lot of good internally on silverlight 
vs HTML5 budget forecasts and resource allocations for the future.. Which means 
more toys for you all to play with if it sways to silverlights favor.

There isn't an unlimited supply of engineers / marketing inside Microsoft .. 
Internally it cab become a zero sum game ;)

--
Sent from my mini iPad nano
(excuse my spilling and grammar as I have giant man like fingers and this 
device as small keys)

On 01/11/2010, at 12:27 PM, Darren Neimke  wrote:

> It's worse than that.  If anything, think about what *we've* effectively just 
> told Microsoft:
> 
> If you ever dare to try to tell us the truth, or give us information which is 
> in the least bit honest, we will beat you up with a fu#$ing great big stick! 
> 
> 
> Darren Neimke
> darren.nei...@live.com 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: crai...@gmail.com
> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 13:24:34 +1100
> Subject: Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?
> To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> 
> I agree. This whole Silverlight debate is a beat up over nothing.
> 
> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Darren Neimke  wrote:
> There's a couple of things here that I think are really, really sad.  
> 
> Firstly, a department within Microsoft comes out at an event, and they use 
> plain English to show that they are supporting an exciting new technology.  
> Next, a couple of groups - who make money from eyeballs - come out with 
> inflammatory comments about what has been said.  Finally, people like *you* 
> (whomever is reading this right now) give justification to the comments made 
> by those groups by going on about it.
> 
> So in short, 
> 
> I don't really care who Mary Foley or TechCrunch are, or what qualifies them 
> to publish stories with such an audacious and misleading title as: 
> "Microsoft: Our strategy with Silverlight has shifted"
> Every minute and therefore money (via our eyeballs) we give to Mary and 
> TechCrunch, is a minute that is not spent working out how to get the best out 
> of these 2 technologies
> Think about the people who are writing about this "debate" (debate?  really?) 
> and ask yourself what their motive is for writing in the first place
> 
> 
> 
> Darren Neimke
> darren.nei...@live.com 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 10:51:38 +1000
> Subject: So, is Silverlight dead yet?
> From: p...@paulstovell.com
> To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> 
> 
> ...at least for non-phones:
> 
> http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/30/rip-silverlight-on-the-web/
> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834
> http://wildermuth.com/2010/10/30/Post-PDC_HTML5_v_Silverlight_Debate
> 
> Paul
> 
> ___ ozsilverlight mailing list 
> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com 
> http://prdlx

Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Stephen Price]

Nice :)

Just remember, when you have a hammer everything looks like a nail!

On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 10:43 AM, Paul Stovell  wrote:
> I took the liberty of graphing this:
> http://www.paulstovell.com/tool-for-the-job
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Stephen Price 
> wrote:
>>
>> Wow. You mean, "the right tool for the right job" still applies?
>> *feigned shocked look*
>>
>> I've been saying Silverlight is for Apps and HTML is for sites for
>> ages. Nothing changed here.
>>
>> Should be interesting how they clarify the statement. :)
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Miguel Madero  wrote:
>> > I like how Shawn puts it,
>> >>
>> >> Silverlight is good for Apps; HTML is good for sites.
>> >
>> > That said, WPF is better for apps. So that leaves a handful of use cases
>> > for
>> > Silverlight, e.g. Web Apps, need of Mac support, easier deployment (not
>> > much
>> > different really), WP7 (which could've been just WPF for Phone), other
>> > devices (maybe?).
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Paul Stovell 
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> ...at least for non-phones:
>> >> http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/30/rip-silverlight-on-the-web/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834
>> >> http://wildermuth.com/2010/10/30/Post-PDC_HTML5_v_Silverlight_Debate
>> >> Paul
>> >> ___
>> >> ozsilverlight mailing list
>> >> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
>> >> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Miguel A. Madero Reyes
>> > www.miguelmadero.com (blog)
>> > m...@miguelmadero.com
>> >
>> > ___
>> > ozsilverlight mailing list
>> > ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
>> > http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>> >
>> >
>> ___
>> ozsilverlight mailing list
>> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
>> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>
>
>
> --
> Paul Stovell
>
> ___
> ozsilverlight mailing list
> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>
>
___
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http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight

Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Paul Stovell]

I took the liberty of graphing this:

http://www.paulstovell.com/tool-for-the-job





On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Stephen Price wrote:

> Wow. You mean, "the right tool for the right job" still applies?
> *feigned shocked look*
>
> I've been saying Silverlight is for Apps and HTML is for sites for
> ages. Nothing changed here.
>
> Should be interesting how they clarify the statement. :)
>
> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Miguel Madero  wrote:
> > I like how Shawn puts it,
> >>
> >> Silverlight is good for Apps; HTML is good for sites.
> >
> > That said, WPF is better for apps. So that leaves a handful of use cases
> for
> > Silverlight, e.g. Web Apps, need of Mac support, easier deployment (not
> much
> > different really), WP7 (which could've been just WPF for Phone), other
> > devices (maybe?).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Paul Stovell 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> ...at least for non-phones:
> >> http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/30/rip-silverlight-on-the-web/
> >>
> >>
> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834
> >> http://wildermuth.com/2010/10/30/Post-PDC_HTML5_v_Silverlight_Debate
> >> Paul
> >> ___
> >> ozsilverlight mailing list
> >> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> >> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Miguel A. Madero Reyes
> > www.miguelmadero.com (blog)
> > m...@miguelmadero.com
> >
> > ___
> > ozsilverlight mailing list
> > ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> > http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
> >
> >
> ___
> ozsilverlight mailing list
> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>



-- 
Paul Stovell
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RE: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Darren Neimke]

It's worse than that.  If anything, think about what *we've* effectively just 
told Microsoft:
If you ever dare to try to tell us the truth, or give us information which is 
in the least bit honest, we will beat you up with a fu#$ing great big stick! 

Darren neimkedarren.nei...@live.com 




From: crai...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 13:24:34 +1100
Subject: Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?
To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com

I agree. This whole Silverlight debate is a beat up over nothing.

On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Darren Neimke  wrote:







There's a couple of things here that I think are really, really sad.  
Firstly, a department within Microsoft comes out at an event, and they use 
plain English to show that they are supporting an exciting new technology.  
Next, a couple of groups - who make money from eyeballs - come out with 
inflammatory comments about what has been said.  Finally, people like *you* 
(whomever is reading this right now) give justification to the comments made by 
those groups by going on about it.


So in short, 
I don't really care who Mary Foley or TechCrunch are, or what qualifies them to 
publish stories with such an audacious and misleading title as: "Microsoft: Our 
strategy with Silverlight has shifted"

Every minute and therefore money (via our eyeballs) we give to Mary and 
TechCrunch, is a minute that is not spent working out how to get the best out 
of these 2 technologiesThink about the people who are writing about this 
"debate" (debate?  really?) and ask yourself what their motive is for writing 
in the first place




Darren neimkedarren.nei...@live.com 






Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 10:51:38 +1000
Subject: So, is Silverlight dead yet?
From: p...@paulstovell.com
To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com



...at least for non-phones:
http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/30/rip-silverlight-on-the-web/

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834


http://wildermuth.com/2010/10/30/Post-PDC_HTML5_v_Silverlight_Debate



Paul


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Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Craig van Nieuwkerk]

I agree. This whole Silverlight debate is a beat up over nothing.

On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Darren Neimke wrote:

>  There's a couple of things here that I think are really, really sad.
>
> Firstly, a department within Microsoft comes out at an event, and they use
> plain English to show that they are supporting an exciting new technology.
>  Next, a couple of groups - who make money from eyeballs - come out with
> inflammatory comments about what has been said.  Finally, people like *you*
> (whomever is reading this right now) give justification to the comments made
> by those groups by going on about it.
>
> So in short,
>
>
>1. I don't really care who Mary Foley or TechCrunch are, or what
>qualifies them to publish stories with such an audacious and misleading
>title as: "Microsoft: Our strategy with Silverlight has shifted"
>2. Every minute and therefore money (via our eyeballs) we give to Mary
>and TechCrunch, is a minute that is not spent working out how to get the
>best out of these 2 technologies
>3. Think about the people who are writing about this "debate" (debate?
> really?) and ask yourself what their motive is for writing in the first
>place
>
>
>
>
> Darren Neimke
> darren.nei...@live.com
>
>
>
>
> --
> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 10:51:38 +1000
> Subject: So, is Silverlight dead yet?
> From: p...@paulstovell.com
> To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
>
>
> ...at least for non-phones:
>
> http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/30/rip-silverlight-on-the-web/
>  
> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834
>  
> http://wildermuth.com/2010/10/30/Post-PDC_HTML5_v_Silverlight_Debate
>
> Paul
>
>
> ___ ozsilverlight mailing list
> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>
> ___
> ozsilverlight mailing list
> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>
>
___
ozsilverlight mailing list
ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight

RE: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Darren Neimke]

There's a couple of things here that I think are really, really sad.  
Firstly, a department within Microsoft comes out at an event, and they use 
plain English to show that they are supporting an exciting new technology.  
Next, a couple of groups - who make money from eyeballs - come out with 
inflammatory comments about what has been said.  Finally, people like *you* 
(whomever is reading this right now) give justification to the comments made by 
those groups by going on about it.
So in short, 
I don't really care who Mary Foley or TechCrunch are, or what qualifies them to 
publish stories with such an audacious and misleading title as: "Microsoft: Our 
strategy with Silverlight has shifted"Every minute and therefore money (via our 
eyeballs) we give to Mary and TechCrunch, is a minute that is not spent working 
out how to get the best out of these 2 technologiesThink about the people who 
are writing about this "debate" (debate?  really?) and ask yourself what their 
motive is for writing in the first place


Darren neimkedarren.nei...@live.com 




Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 10:51:38 +1000
Subject: So, is Silverlight dead yet?
From: p...@paulstovell.com
To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com

...at least for non-phones:
http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/30/rip-silverlight-on-the-web/http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834
http://wildermuth.com/2010/10/30/Post-PDC_HTML5_v_Silverlight_Debate

Paul


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Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Craig van Nieuwkerk]

What has changed? I keep reading that their plan for Silverlight was world
domination but they have now toned that down to a few niche areas. I never
was under the impression that MS planned for Silverlight to be the be all
and end all of web development.

Craig.

On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Deepak Kapoor wrote:

> Or we could take it at its face value and accept that strategy around
> Silverlight has indeed changed.
>
> My 2 cents.
>
> Deepak
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 12:42 PM, Joseph  wrote:
>
>> Yeah - it will be interesting to see how the spindoctors work this without
>> the president of devdiv losing face.
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>> On 01/11/2010, at 11:09 AM, Craig van Nieuwkerk 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I think Muglia wishes he had kept his mouth shut. There will be a
>> statement coming out in the next couple of days to clarify.
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Paul Stovell < 
>> p...@paulstovell.com> wrote:
>>
>>> ...at least for non-phones:
>>>
>>> 
>>> http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/30/rip-silverlight-on-the-web/
>>>  
>>> 
>>> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834
>>>  
>>> 
>>> http://wildermuth.com/2010/10/30/Post-PDC_HTML5_v_Silverlight_Debate
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> ozsilverlight mailing list
>>>  ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
>>>  
>>> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>>>
>>>
>> ___
>> ozsilverlight mailing list
>> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
>> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>>
>>
>> ___
>> ozsilverlight mailing list
>> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
>> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>>
>>
>
> ___
> ozsilverlight mailing list
> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>
>
___
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Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Deepak Kapoor]

Or we could take it at its face value and accept that strategy around
Silverlight has indeed changed.

My 2 cents.

Deepak

On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 12:42 PM, Joseph  wrote:

> Yeah - it will be interesting to see how the spindoctors work this without
> the president of devdiv losing face.
>
> Joseph
>
> On 01/11/2010, at 11:09 AM, Craig van Nieuwkerk  wrote:
>
> I think Muglia wishes he had kept his mouth shut. There will be a statement
> coming out in the next couple of days to clarify.
>
> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Paul Stovell < 
> p...@paulstovell.com> wrote:
>
>> ...at least for non-phones:
>>
>> 
>> http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/30/rip-silverlight-on-the-web/
>>  
>> 
>> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834
>>  
>> 
>> http://wildermuth.com/2010/10/30/Post-PDC_HTML5_v_Silverlight_Debate
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>> ___
>> ozsilverlight mailing list
>>  ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
>>  
>> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>>
>>
> ___
> ozsilverlight mailing list
> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>
>
> ___
> ozsilverlight mailing list
> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>
>
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Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Stephen Price]

Wow. You mean, "the right tool for the right job" still applies?
*feigned shocked look*

I've been saying Silverlight is for Apps and HTML is for sites for
ages. Nothing changed here.

Should be interesting how they clarify the statement. :)

On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Miguel Madero  wrote:
> I like how Shawn puts it,
>>
>> Silverlight is good for Apps; HTML is good for sites.
>
> That said, WPF is better for apps. So that leaves a handful of use cases for
> Silverlight, e.g. Web Apps, need of Mac support, easier deployment (not much
> different really), WP7 (which could've been just WPF for Phone), other
> devices (maybe?).
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Paul Stovell  wrote:
>>
>> ...at least for non-phones:
>> http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/30/rip-silverlight-on-the-web/
>>
>> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834
>> http://wildermuth.com/2010/10/30/Post-PDC_HTML5_v_Silverlight_Debate
>> Paul
>> ___
>> ozsilverlight mailing list
>> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
>> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Miguel A. Madero Reyes
> www.miguelmadero.com (blog)
> m...@miguelmadero.com
>
> ___
> ozsilverlight mailing list
> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>
>
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Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Joseph]

Yeah - it will be interesting to see how the spindoctors work this without the 
president of devdiv losing face.

Joseph

On 01/11/2010, at 11:09 AM, Craig van Nieuwkerk  wrote:

> I think Muglia wishes he had kept his mouth shut. There will be a statement 
> coming out in the next couple of days to clarify.
> 
> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Paul Stovell  wrote:
> ...at least for non-phones:
> 
> http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/30/rip-silverlight-on-the-web/
> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834
> http://wildermuth.com/2010/10/30/Post-PDC_HTML5_v_Silverlight_Debate
> 
> Paul
> 
> ___
> ozsilverlight mailing list
> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Scott Barnes]

This whole saga reminds me of the movie Black Hawk down... the part
where the chopper goes down and the General just goes "Gentleman We've
lost the initiative" .. its not a question of which part of this story
is right or wrong, it's just blind chaos. When i start making sense
via twitter/blog posts all of you need to worry ;) hehehehe





On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:25 AM, Miguel Madero  wrote:
> I like how Shawn puts it,
>>
>> Silverlight is good for Apps; HTML is good for sites.
>
> That said, WPF is better for apps. So that leaves a handful of use cases for
> Silverlight, e.g. Web Apps, need of Mac support, easier deployment (not much
> different really), WP7 (which could've been just WPF for Phone), other
> devices (maybe?).
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Paul Stovell  wrote:
>>
>> ...at least for non-phones:
>> http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/30/rip-silverlight-on-the-web/
>>
>> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834
>> http://wildermuth.com/2010/10/30/Post-PDC_HTML5_v_Silverlight_Debate
>> Paul
>> ___
>> ozsilverlight mailing list
>> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
>> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Miguel A. Madero Reyes
> www.miguelmadero.com (blog)
> m...@miguelmadero.com
>
> ___
> ozsilverlight mailing list
> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>
>
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Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Miguel Madero]

I like how Shawn puts it,

Silverlight  is good for Apps; HTML is
> good for sites.


That said, WPF is better for apps. So that leaves a handful of use cases for
Silverlight, e.g. Web Apps, need of Mac support, easier deployment (not much
different really), WP7 (which could've been just WPF for Phone), other
devices (maybe?).





On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Paul Stovell  wrote:

> ...at least for non-phones:
>
> http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/30/rip-silverlight-on-the-web/
>  
> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834
>  
> http://wildermuth.com/2010/10/30/Post-PDC_HTML5_v_Silverlight_Debate
>
> Paul
>
>
> ___
> ozsilverlight mailing list
> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>
>


-- 
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www.miguelmadero.com (blog)
m...@miguelmadero.com
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Re: So, is Silverlight dead yet?

[Craig van Nieuwkerk]

I think Muglia wishes he had kept his mouth shut. There will be a statement
coming out in the next couple of days to clarify.

On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Paul Stovell  wrote:

> ...at least for non-phones:
>
> http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/30/rip-silverlight-on-the-web/
>  
> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-our-strategy-with-silverlight-has-shifted/7834
>  
> http://wildermuth.com/2010/10/30/Post-PDC_HTML5_v_Silverlight_Debate
>
> Paul
>
>
> ___
> ozsilverlight mailing list
> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com
> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
>
>
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