Re: PESO - American Fence
As real scientists MIT should be ashamed. SJ wrote: > On 1/22/07, P. J. Alling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>> then why did you bother? >>> >> Because I'm tired of the crap. >> > > you take the words out of my keyboard > > >> I did a bit of real research, Human Rights Watch for the estimate of >> the Kurdish death toll. www.GlobalSecurity.org has a nice set of numbers >> for the Iran Iraq war estimates, they agree in general with several >> other sources. www.kuwait-embassy.or.jp for the Kuwait numbers. There >> were a number of places that had minimum and maximum numbers for total >> dead from the Ba'athist regimes over 30 years, I took two that were >> neither the highest nor lowest figures. >> > > nobody's defending saddam. it's just that in a lot of places the US > isn't perceived as being very different. statistics like the one > provided by JHU often support that perception. > > >> It's very difficult to find data on genocidal regimes such as the Ba'ath >> party under Saddam, they tend to not file reports with the UN about >> their illegitimate activities. By the way, anyone who's done any >> "Social Science", (and I use the word science very loosely in this >> context), research will tell you that survey data is not to be trusted, >> especially if there are actual bodies that can be counted. It seems >> that the JHU never heard that, at least based on the article as I read it. >> > > you can always ask them (and MIT which supported the study) to shut up > and go home > > regards, subash > > >> SJ wrote: >> >>> i got my figures of casualties in iraq after the US invasion >>> (6,50,000 total, 3000 american) from a peer-reviewed findings of the >>> the School of Public Health of the Johns Hopkins University. see here: >>> >>> http://www.jhu.edu/~gazette/2006/16oct06/16iraq.html >>> > > -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
On Jan 22, 2007, at 2:38 AM, SJ wrote: > the US > isn't perceived as being very different Utter nonsense. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
On 1/22/07, David Savage <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Good God man, how did you last that long. > > > On 1/22/07, SJ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > sorry for replying late to this, i have been travelling and staying > > away from the Net for the last ten days. dave, :) it's my once-a-year test of will power so that i can remain blissfully addicted the rest of the year. for desperate situations i did have gprs but am glad to say never felt the need to to use it. in other words i passed my annual test. :) regards, subash -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Good God man, how did you last that long. Dave On 1/22/07, SJ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > sorry for replying late to this, i have been travelling and staying > away from the Net for the last ten days. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
On 1/22/07, P. J. Alling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > then why did you bother? > Because I'm tired of the crap. you take the words out of my keyboard > I did a bit of real research, Human Rights Watch for the estimate of > the Kurdish death toll. www.GlobalSecurity.org has a nice set of numbers > for the Iran Iraq war estimates, they agree in general with several > other sources. www.kuwait-embassy.or.jp for the Kuwait numbers. There > were a number of places that had minimum and maximum numbers for total > dead from the Ba'athist regimes over 30 years, I took two that were > neither the highest nor lowest figures. nobody's defending saddam. it's just that in a lot of places the US isn't perceived as being very different. statistics like the one provided by JHU often support that perception. > It's very difficult to find data on genocidal regimes such as the Ba'ath > party under Saddam, they tend to not file reports with the UN about > their illegitimate activities. By the way, anyone who's done any > "Social Science", (and I use the word science very loosely in this > context), research will tell you that survey data is not to be trusted, > especially if there are actual bodies that can be counted. It seems > that the JHU never heard that, at least based on the article as I read it. you can always ask them (and MIT which supported the study) to shut up and go home regards, subash > SJ wrote: > > i got my figures of casualties in iraq after the US invasion > > (6,50,000 total, 3000 american) from a peer-reviewed findings of the > > the School of Public Health of the Johns Hopkins University. see here: > > > > http://www.jhu.edu/~gazette/2006/16oct06/16iraq.html -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
> > then why did you bother? Because I'm tired of the crap. I did a bit of real research, Human Rights Watch for the estimate of the Kurdish death toll. www.GlobalSecurity.org has a nice set of numbers for the Iran Iraq war estimates, they agree in general with several other sources. www.kuwait-embassy.or.jp for the Kuwait numbers. There were a number of places that had minimum and maximum numbers for total dead from the Ba'athist regimes over 30 years, I took two that were neither the highest nor lowest figures. It's very difficult to find data on genocidal regimes such as the Ba'ath party under Saddam, they tend to not file reports with the UN about their illegitimate activities. By the way, anyone who's done any "Social Science", (and I use the word science very loosely in this context), research will tell you that survey data is not to be trusted, especially if there are actual bodies that can be counted. It seems that the JHU never heard that, at least based on the article as I read it. SJ wrote: > On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 13:41:58 -0500 > "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> You are not even worth arguing with. >> > > then why did you bother? > > [...] > >> The estimates of how many Iraqis this amounts to in total is >> estimated on the low end to 2 hundred thousand, and on the high end 8 >> million, (in a country that has a present day population of about 22 >> million), over the 30 years the Baath >> >> So shut up and go home. >> > > sorry for replying late to this, i have been travelling and staying > away from the Net for the last ten days. > > i got my figures of casualties in iraq after the US invasion > (6,50,000 total, 3000 american) from a peer-reviewed findings of the > the School of Public Health of the Johns Hopkins University. see here: > > http://www.jhu.edu/~gazette/2006/16oct06/16iraq.html > > where did you get yours? > > in case it helps to clarify things, *i* have absolutely no problems > differentiating between the government of a country and its people. > > regards, subash > > -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 13:41:58 -0500 "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You are not even worth arguing with. then why did you bother? [...] > The estimates of how many Iraqis this amounts to in total is > estimated on the low end to 2 hundred thousand, and on the high end 8 > million, (in a country that has a present day population of about 22 > million), over the 30 years the Baath > > So shut up and go home. sorry for replying late to this, i have been travelling and staying away from the Net for the last ten days. i got my figures of casualties in iraq after the US invasion (6,50,000 total, 3000 american) from a peer-reviewed findings of the the School of Public Health of the Johns Hopkins University. see here: http://www.jhu.edu/~gazette/2006/16oct06/16iraq.html where did you get yours? in case it helps to clarify things, *i* have absolutely no problems differentiating between the government of a country and its people. regards, subash -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Hi! > I should have elaborated & stated "I detest their efforts to bring their > country (& customs) with them & enforce them on the rest of us." Could be you're right. > Perhaps if you lived in the U.S. of A you'd feel different if you > experienced things here. I visited USA three times as of now. Of course total of 6 weeks or so does not really count, but that's all I have to offer. I've been to NYC, LA, SF, Boston, Washington DC. Most of the time I liked what I saw. > It's your house & you should be able to do what you want - within reason. If > I find something there offensive I can either keep my mouth shut, tell you > about it or leave. Fair enough. But given the fact that we are both reasonably civilized we should be able to resolve virtually any issue so that the first and the third options will not be necessary, unless we mutually agree that you keep yourself silent or you leave, which anyway I trust should not happen. >> Cheers! And of course I'd be glad to shake your hand in person or >> otherwise on the list ;-). > > I hope I get the opportunity! Likewise! > Now we both should go and take some images. I most definitely concur. Boris-who's-gonna-be-shooting-'cause-weekend-is-coming. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Dag, > Thanks Boris. > > Somehow, but I don´t remember why, that does not surprise me. I > remember him as being controversial. There're different shades of gray (like degrees of controversy). This guy is off my chart. ;-) Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Bob Sullivan wrote: > Thanks Boris, > I had no idea! > Regards, Bob S. Anytime, Bob. Anytime. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
John Poirier wrote: > Encounters between vehicles and bison are commonplace. Now /that's/ a close encounter of the vehicular kind that I'd really prefer to avoid. The fairly small white tails in the US Southeast are more than enough. I'd rather hit a tire wall, for sure ... a quad isn't nearly as likely to get inside the car with me. ;-) -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
> Bob Sullivan wrote: >> I've heard that Boris's Russian countryman, Alexander Solzenitzen, >> thought the gulags would have been a lot emptier in their day if the >> secret police were uncertain which of their middle of the night > raids >> would have been met with a loaded gun. Of course they would have been. The secret police would have bypassed the Gulags and just killed anyone who resisted arrest. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Someone's bad at math. The government can concentrate force against a single law breaker or small group easily. If the whole population is armed and loses faith in the legitimacy of the government's actions the police will be exchanging their uniforms for civilian cloths and taking their guns with them. Bob W wrote: > Bob Sullivan wrote: > >> I've heard that Boris's Russian countryman, Alexander Solzenitzen, >> thought the gulags would have been a lot emptier in their day if the >> secret police were uncertain which of their middle of the night >> > raids > >> would have been met with a loaded gun. >> Regards, Bob S. >> > > why would they have reacted differently to any other police which > expects to meet loaded guns on a dawn raid and sends in a swot team? > The police will always have more guns than the citizenry. They > wouldn't be much cop (intentional pun) otherwise, and it's what we pay > them for. > > -- > Bob > > > > -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: PESO - American Fence
Bob Sullivan wrote: > I've heard that Boris's Russian countryman, Alexander Solzenitzen, > thought the gulags would have been a lot emptier in their day if the > secret police were uncertain which of their middle of the night raids > would have been met with a loaded gun. > Regards, Bob S. why would they have reacted differently to any other police which expects to meet loaded guns on a dawn raid and sends in a swot team? The police will always have more guns than the citizenry. They wouldn't be much cop (intentional pun) otherwise, and it's what we pay them for. -- Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Den 11. jan. 2007 kl. 20.04 skrev Boris Liberman: > Bob, > > Bob Sullivan wrote: >> I've heard that Boris's Russian countryman, Alexander Solzenitzen, >> thought the gulags would have been a lot emptier in their day if the >> secret police were uncertain which of their middle of the night raids >> would have been met with a loaded gun. >> Regards, Bob S. > > Some years ago Solzhenitzin (never mind the spelling) produced a book > called "(Russians and Jews,) Two Hundred Years Together". It was > written > like a historical kind of work. You know with references and all > such. I > read the first volume. I decided to keep away from the second. In > simple > words, this "work" is basis for so called "intellectual anti-semitism" > where the anti-semite does not just say that he or she despises Jews, > but rather gives very thorough, intellectual, logical proof why > this is > the right thing to do. Since then, I have very little sentiment for > the man. > > Just to make sure this little detail is known to the list. > > Boris Thanks Boris. Somehow, but I don´t remember why, that does not surprise me. I remember him as being controversial. DagT -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Thanks Boris, I had no idea! Regards, Bob S. On 1/11/07, Boris Liberman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Bob, > > Bob Sullivan wrote: > > I've heard that Boris's Russian countryman, Alexander Solzenitzen, > > thought the gulags would have been a lot emptier in their day if the > > secret police were uncertain which of their middle of the night raids > > would have been met with a loaded gun. > > Regards, Bob S. > > Some years ago Solzhenitzin (never mind the spelling) produced a book > called "(Russians and Jews,) Two Hundred Years Together". It was written > like a historical kind of work. You know with references and all such. I > read the first volume. I decided to keep away from the second. In simple > words, this "work" is basis for so called "intellectual anti-semitism" > where the anti-semite does not just say that he or she despises Jews, > but rather gives very thorough, intellectual, logical proof why this is > the right thing to do. Since then, I have very little sentiment for the man. > > Just to make sure this little detail is known to the list. > > Boris > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: PESO - American Fence
We have buffalo roaming in Britain too. -- Bob > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Shel Belinkoff > Sent: 11 January 2007 15:00 > To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > > American Bison are far from extinct, although they were > pushed very close > to the edge of extinction. There are numerous herds in North America, > although their numbers are far lower than the were 150 years > ago. Even in > the 1960's one could buy "buffalo" meat in some areas, > Yellowstone National > park has a fair number of the creatures, and even Golden Gate > Park in San > Francisco has a small herd. Buffalo meat is now widely available in > supermarkets in various parts of the US. In the forty years > since I first > tasted the meat the availability has spread widely. > > Buffalo meat is quite tasty, lower in fat than beef, and lower in > cholesterol than some beef and other meat, and is not treated > with hormones > and crap like so much of the beef cattle is. If you're a > meat eater, try > to find some and enjoy a taste. You may find it preferable > to a lot of the > beef that's on the market. > > Interesting note: In the movie "Dances With Wolves" there are scenes > depicting large numbers of buffalo being hunted. Amongst, and perhaps > leading that group, was a small herd owned by Neil Young, the Canadian > musician. > > Shel > > > > > [Original Message] > > From: K.Takeshita > > > While this is wildly OT (usually, title and the contents > part each other > in > > a matter of hours in this list :-), this is interesting history, but > sorry, > > I got lost somewhere. > > Are bison now extinct (or near extinct) or just endangered specie? > > I thought I saw a lot of them in western movies in their hey days. > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
I saw the pic and can tell you that it was very creatively and artistically photographed, but it is not for publication on this forum based on previously posted pics. I'd like to have seen it in B&W and with a tighter crop . Cloning the legs and head back in place would have improved the symmetry, as would removing the coroner's gloved hand. Shel > [Original Message] > From: Kenneth Waller > >> I've got some rather gory pictures here showing what happens when a > >> black bear catches a man. It isn't pretty. > > Yeah, but are they artsy? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
It's true. The wing is the best part of the buffalo. -Brendan --- Tom C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >From: Brendan MacRae <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > >To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > >Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > >Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 10:40:10 -0800 (PST) > > > >I just had some buffalo chilli and it was great! > > > >-Brendan > > Yeah, but you covered up the taste of the buffalo. > BTW, I had Buffalo Wings > recently. > > Tom C. > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
>> I've got some rather gory pictures here showing what happens when a >> black bear catches a man. It isn't pretty. Yeah, but are they artsy? Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: "Shel Belinkoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:30 AM Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > Could you post them? > > Shel > > > >> [Original Message] >> From: David Savage <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> >> I've got some rather gory pictures here showing what happens when a >> black bear catches a man. It isn't pretty. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
I heard you once had a Mohawk. Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: "David Mann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > On Jan 10, 2007, at 10:42 PM, mike wilson wrote: > >> Isn't that what the Apache said? > > My Apache keeps saying 404. > > At least I don't have an Oracle. > > - Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Done right they taste like buffalo chili. Tom C wrote: >> From: Brendan MacRae <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence >> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 10:40:10 -0800 (PST) >> >> I just had some buffalo chilli and it was great! >> >> -Brendan >> > > Yeah, but you covered up the taste of the buffalo. BTW, I had Buffalo Wings > recently. > > Tom C. > > > > -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Bob, Bob Sullivan wrote: > I've heard that Boris's Russian countryman, Alexander Solzenitzen, > thought the gulags would have been a lot emptier in their day if the > secret police were uncertain which of their middle of the night raids > would have been met with a loaded gun. > Regards, Bob S. Some years ago Solzhenitzin (never mind the spelling) produced a book called "(Russians and Jews,) Two Hundred Years Together". It was written like a historical kind of work. You know with references and all such. I read the first volume. I decided to keep away from the second. In simple words, this "work" is basis for so called "intellectual anti-semitism" where the anti-semite does not just say that he or she despises Jews, but rather gives very thorough, intellectual, logical proof why this is the right thing to do. Since then, I have very little sentiment for the man. Just to make sure this little detail is known to the list. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
>From: Brendan MacRae <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence >Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 10:40:10 -0800 (PST) > >I just had some buffalo chilli and it was great! > >-Brendan Yeah, but you covered up the taste of the buffalo. BTW, I had Buffalo Wings recently. Tom C. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Responses (for the last time) are interspersed below - Original Message - From: "Boris Liberman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > Ken, I see what you're saying. Or at least I hope I do. However the > phrase "I don't hate foreigners, but I detest their efforts to bring > their country with them.", I should have elaborated & stated "I detest their efforts to bring their country (& customs) with them & enforce them on the rest of us." > which I guess you remember, evidently can be > understood in more than one way. I am very much willing to accept that > the way I understood it was wrong. > > More below. > >> Enjoy your & celebrate your heritage & cultural values, but I don't want >> (not specifically you Boris) you to impose your cultural values on me. > > I won't. Why would I want to impose on you anything except the laws of > your own country should I find that you break them? Perhaps if you lived in the U.S. of A you'd feel different if you experienced things here. > > But then again, if you come to visit my house expect to see things done > my way which of course is *not* going to be designed to offend you in > any possible way. It's your house & you should be able to do what you want - within reason. If I find something there offensive I can either keep my mouth shut, tell you about it or leave. > >>> I do apologize profoundly, but I am both Jewish and Russian, and neither >>> of which I am going to be willing to abandon in any foreseeable future. >> >> If you thought that I implied that you're wrong. > > Good, then you and I are definitely on the same side of the dispute here. I think if this was a face to face conversation we would have already moved on to other things - in other word we both would have seen the other side's view before now. > >>> I should also say that I am very surprised to see how much mutual >>> intolerance there is among the members of this very friendly community >>> should it touch the national symbols and citizenship. >> >> Is a discussion of viewpoints really intolerance? Have I abused someone >> on >> this list? > > I have had a private off-list conversation with another list member who > also participated in this thread. He seems to agree with my point of > view. Again, it definitely could be that you, Ken, did not express > intolerance, but generally I stand by what I am saying. > >>> Folks, the world is diverse. It is so for the reason. So let us not try >>> to force the same suit on everyone. >> >> Do you really think I was trying to do that. > > America is a "melting pot" or whatever is the name. So everyone who > comes in *is supposed* to melt and transform to something different. I > find it rather poor approach. Whether you find it a poor appproach or not, that is the way it was in the U. S. of A. > > Apart from differences in language it seems that you and I have great > many things in common though. Which is a good thing, I say. Same here. > > Cheers! And of course I'd be glad to shake your hand in person or > otherwise on the list ;-). I hope I get the opportunity! > > Boris Now we both should go and take some images. Kenneth Waller -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
???! -Brendan --- Paul Stenquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Jan 10, 2007, at 8:38 PM, Brendan MacRae wrote: > > > Like I said before, even if some anthropologist > comes > > across evidence of the most brutal tribe in the > > history of man, > > They already have. > > > I won't be swayed on my belief that > > Native Americans were a remarkable people. > Besides, > > looking at such things now with modern eyes ... > > > Or with rose-colored glasses? Yes, it's better to > ignore the > scientific evidence and instead subscribe to the > popular PC myths. > Paul > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
I just had some buffalo chilli and it was great! -Brendan --- Shel Belinkoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > American Bison are far from extinct, although they > were pushed very close > to the edge of extinction. There are numerous herds > in North America, > although their numbers are far lower than the were > 150 years ago. Even in > the 1960's one could buy "buffalo" meat in some > areas, Yellowstone National > park has a fair number of the creatures, and even > Golden Gate Park in San > Francisco has a small herd. Buffalo meat is now > widely available in > supermarkets in various parts of the US. In the > forty years since I first > tasted the meat the availability has spread widely. > > Buffalo meat is quite tasty, lower in fat than beef, > and lower in > cholesterol than some beef and other meat, and is > not treated with hormones > and crap like so much of the beef cattle is. If > you're a meat eater, try > to find some and enjoy a taste. You may find it > preferable to a lot of the > beef that's on the market. > > Interesting note: In the movie "Dances With Wolves" > there are scenes > depicting large numbers of buffalo being hunted. > Amongst, and perhaps > leading that group, was a small herd owned by Neil > Young, the Canadian > musician. > > Shel > > > > > [Original Message] > > From: K.Takeshita > > > While this is wildly OT (usually, title and the > contents part each other > in > > a matter of hours in this list :-), this is > interesting history, but > sorry, > > I got lost somewhere. > > Are bison now extinct (or near extinct) or just > endangered specie? > > I thought I saw a lot of them in western movies in > their hey days. > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: PESO - American Fence
Hi- I'm not sure where this thread is going, thought I'd do a test posting on an account I just set up. Bison are fairly common in the parts of northern Canada. In the Northwest Territories, there are significant free-ranging herds near the communities of Fort Providence and Fort Liard. Encounters between vehicles and bison are commonplace. The critters are also free to roam in the communities themselves. Range of the herds is expanding. Many years ago I went cross-country skiing among herds of bison in a national park quite regularly. They simply ignored me. Anyhow, here's the link to a shot I did a couple of years ago. A common sight along certain NWT highways- a small herd crossing the road. (It's really easy to get close to the critters if you stay in your car and approach slowly.) http://picasaweb.google.com/Gabriolaphoto/JohnPoirierPentaxImages/photo#5018 825172355102226 John Poirier -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: January 11, 2007 8:25 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence I believe that Montana has had to initiate a bison hunting season to thin the herd. As expected, these creatures do quite well in their native habitat. Paul -- Original message -- From: "Shel Belinkoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > American Bison are far from extinct, although they were pushed very close > to the edge of extinction. There are numerous herds in North America, > although their numbers are far lower than the were 150 years ago. Even in > the 1960's one could buy "buffalo" meat in some areas, Yellowstone National > park has a fair number of the creatures, and even Golden Gate Park in San > Francisco has a small herd. Buffalo meat is now widely available in > supermarkets in various parts of the US. In the forty years since I first > tasted the meat the availability has spread widely. > > Buffalo meat is quite tasty, lower in fat than beef, and lower in > cholesterol than some beef and other meat, and is not treated with hormones > and crap like so much of the beef cattle is. If you're a meat eater, try > to find some and enjoy a taste. You may find it preferable to a lot of the > beef that's on the market. > > Interesting note: In the movie "Dances With Wolves" there are scenes > depicting large numbers of buffalo being hunted. Amongst, and perhaps > leading that group, was a small herd owned by Neil Young, the Canadian > musician. > > Shel > > > > > [Original Message] > > From: K.Takeshita > > > While this is wildly OT (usually, title and the contents part each other > in > > a matter of hours in this list :-), this is interesting history, but > sorry, > > I got lost somewhere. > > Are bison now extinct (or near extinct) or just endangered specie? > > I thought I saw a lot of them in western movies in their hey days. > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
I believe that Montana has had to initiate a bison hunting season to thin the herd. As expected, these creatures do quite well in their native habitat. Paul -- Original message -- From: "Shel Belinkoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > American Bison are far from extinct, although they were pushed very close > to the edge of extinction. There are numerous herds in North America, > although their numbers are far lower than the were 150 years ago. Even in > the 1960's one could buy "buffalo" meat in some areas, Yellowstone National > park has a fair number of the creatures, and even Golden Gate Park in San > Francisco has a small herd. Buffalo meat is now widely available in > supermarkets in various parts of the US. In the forty years since I first > tasted the meat the availability has spread widely. > > Buffalo meat is quite tasty, lower in fat than beef, and lower in > cholesterol than some beef and other meat, and is not treated with hormones > and crap like so much of the beef cattle is. If you're a meat eater, try > to find some and enjoy a taste. You may find it preferable to a lot of the > beef that's on the market. > > Interesting note: In the movie "Dances With Wolves" there are scenes > depicting large numbers of buffalo being hunted. Amongst, and perhaps > leading that group, was a small herd owned by Neil Young, the Canadian > musician. > > Shel > > > > > [Original Message] > > From: K.Takeshita > > > While this is wildly OT (usually, title and the contents part each other > in > > a matter of hours in this list :-), this is interesting history, but > sorry, > > I got lost somewhere. > > Are bison now extinct (or near extinct) or just endangered specie? > > I thought I saw a lot of them in western movies in their hey days. > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
You will also find them in healthy numbers in Catalina Island, off the coast of Los Angeles. Hollywood put them there for movies also, now they are a tourist attraction and occasionally attack the wierd buses that take tourists up the road. rg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > American Bison are far from extinct, although they were pushed very close > to the edge of extinction. There are numerous herds in North America, > although their numbers are far lower than the were 150 years ago. Even in > the 1960's one could buy "buffalo" meat in some areas, Yellowstone National > park has a fair number of the creatures, and even Golden Gate Park in San > Francisco has a small herd. Buffalo meat is now widely available in > supermarkets in various parts of the US. In the forty years since I first > tasted the meat the availability has spread widely. > > Buffalo meat is quite tasty, lower in fat than beef, and lower in > cholesterol than some beef and other meat, and is not treated with hormones > and crap like so much of the beef cattle is. If you're a meat eater, try > to find some and enjoy a taste. You may find it preferable to a lot of the > beef that's on the market. > > Interesting note: In the movie "Dances With Wolves" there are scenes > depicting large numbers of buffalo being hunted. Amongst, and perhaps > leading that group, was a small herd owned by Neil Young, the Canadian > musician. > > Shel > > > > >>[Original Message] >>From: K.Takeshita > > >>While this is wildly OT (usually, title and the contents part each other > > in > >>a matter of hours in this list :-), this is interesting history, but > > sorry, > >>I got lost somewhere. >>Are bison now extinct (or near extinct) or just endangered specie? >>I thought I saw a lot of them in western movies in their hey days. > > > > -- Someone handed me a picture and said, "This is a picture of me when I was younger." Every picture of you is when you were younger. "...Here's a picture of me when I'm older." Where'd you get that camera man? - Mitch Hedberg -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
American Bison are far from extinct, although they were pushed very close to the edge of extinction. There are numerous herds in North America, although their numbers are far lower than the were 150 years ago. Even in the 1960's one could buy "buffalo" meat in some areas, Yellowstone National park has a fair number of the creatures, and even Golden Gate Park in San Francisco has a small herd. Buffalo meat is now widely available in supermarkets in various parts of the US. In the forty years since I first tasted the meat the availability has spread widely. Buffalo meat is quite tasty, lower in fat than beef, and lower in cholesterol than some beef and other meat, and is not treated with hormones and crap like so much of the beef cattle is. If you're a meat eater, try to find some and enjoy a taste. You may find it preferable to a lot of the beef that's on the market. Interesting note: In the movie "Dances With Wolves" there are scenes depicting large numbers of buffalo being hunted. Amongst, and perhaps leading that group, was a small herd owned by Neil Young, the Canadian musician. Shel > [Original Message] > From: K.Takeshita > While this is wildly OT (usually, title and the contents part each other in > a matter of hours in this list :-), this is interesting history, but sorry, > I got lost somewhere. > Are bison now extinct (or near extinct) or just endangered specie? > I thought I saw a lot of them in western movies in their hey days. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
David Mann wrote: > On Jan 10, 2007, at 10:42 PM, mike wilson wrote: > >> Isn't that what the Apache said? > > My Apache keeps saying 404. > > At least I don't have an Oracle. I just wear a RedHat. -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Could you post them? Shel > [Original Message] > From: David Savage <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > I've got some rather gory pictures here showing what happens when a > black bear catches a man. It isn't pretty. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
On 1/10/07, P. J. Alling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This is well, just wrong. The methods of how diseases were transmitted > just wasn't well enough understood to run a campaign using such a > weapon. You didn't need to do it on purpose, it seems that moderns have > forgotten just virulent smallpox is and what it does to un-protected > populations. Now killing the buffalo, that was well understood. Just because they didn't have the same knowledge that we do about disease transmission doesn't mean that it wouldn't have been well known that certain diseases were communicable. I'm sure that it wouldn't have been difficult to notice that those in contact with someone with smallpox seem to have a much higher chance of contracting it themselves. They may not have been sophisticated, but they weren't stupid. cheers, frank -- "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
On Jan 10, 2007, at 10:42 PM, mike wilson wrote: > Isn't that what the Apache said? My Apache keeps saying 404. At least I don't have an Oracle. - Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
On Jan 11, 2007, at 3:03 AM, K.Takeshita wrote: > Flip side of this is, depending on the type of care, you may have > to wait > for a long time. For example, several years ago, MRI scan had a long > waiting list up to 6 months etc simply because of insufficient number. Here the government was able to slash the number of people on waiting lists. They wrote to tell them that they're no longer on the list. I have private insurance. - Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: PESO - American Fence
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of P. J. Alling > Sent: 11 January 2007 01:35 > To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > > This is well, just wrong. The methods of how diseases were > transmitted > just wasn't well enough understood to run a campaign using such a > weapon. You didn't need to do it on purpose, it seems that > moderns have > forgotten just virulent smallpox is and what it does to un-protected > populations. Now killing the buffalo, that was well understood. > People have been using diseases as biological weapons as far back as you care to go in history. At least since the plague of Athens and the siege of Caffa, when the bodies of plague victims were thrown over the walls to infect the enemy. Some people think that the ashes that God told Moses to sprinkle on Pharaoh (Exodus 9:8-9) is an example of anthrax used as a weapon. After the initial wave of the Black Death in the 14th century it chuntered on through Europe for 300 years. One of the reasons why it didn't continue to have the devastating consequences it did in the 14th century is that people fairly quickly came to understand the pattern of transmission, so they were able to take countermeasures whenever there was a new outbreak. By the time we arrived in the New World we had used germ warfare many times before, and certainly new enough about it to use it against the people in North America. There are several examples of it cited, including Sir Jeffrey Amherst deliberately giving tribal leaders blankets laced with smallpox crusts at Fort Pitt, Pennsylvania in 1763. http://www.college.ucla.edu/webproject/micro12/webpages/indianssmallpo x.html -- Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Thats where it gets murky. Because of the size of the skeletons, they were considerably larger than modern humans, but still within the range of modern man. The teeth are purported to have been very large also. The cranial capacity does indicate Homo Sapiens. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > They were also fully "modern humans", who we know are adaptable, and in > many ways as hard to kill as a cockroach. > > Gonz wrote: > >>Well, here's the archeological evidence that led the author to that >>conclusion: >> * they had no agricultural technology, i.e. they were hunter gatherers, >>this came from their fossilized remains + the remains of their prey >> * they were huge, large skulls and bones >> * their weapons were huge, designed to take down large game >> * they hardly lived past the age of 20, from the bone record, the >>author guesses this is because of the riskiness of taking down such >>dangerous prey >> * they lived right before the end of the ice age >> * their prey moved north as it got warmer >> * their prey went extinct, probably due to the global warming, which >>caused their food source to go away >> * the nearest arrival of the next wave of immigrants (mongoloid) came >>much much later >> * some evidence of cannibalism is present, which may or may not >>indicate desperate situation, or it could just indicate some type of >>ritual killing >> * their short life span created a small birth rate >> >>So, it might not be so far fetched. We will never know for sure of course. >> >>rg >> >> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> >> >>>Oh, I agree that there were precursors to the current Native Americans, >>>there's a fare amount of evidence, of them, but global warming killing >>>them off, really. That's what's silly. >>> >>>Gonz wrote: >>> >>> >>> What's silly about it. Its not talking about the native americans that were here when the Europeans arrived. Its talking about their predecessors. How do you explain their archeological remains? rg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >That's just silly... > >Gonz wrote: > > > > > >>A book I'm reading right now indicates that the evidence points to these >>first settlers to have been done in by.drum roll please "Global >>Warming". Yup, the melting of the last Ice Age drove all the >>elephant-like creatures and huge jumbo bison further north and >>eventually to extinction. The native humans could not adapt, and they >>died off. Apparently they had no mongoloid features, so they were not >>the same race of people as the later settlers. >> >>rg >> >> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>I think that describes many "Native American's" quite well There is >>>some evidence that those who emigrated from Asia during the last ice age >>>weren't the first, but it doesn't fit the stereotype so this evidence is >>>sometimes suppressed. The current natives may have actually displaced >>>earlier residents of this continent, thus depriving them of ultimate >>>victim hood. Personally I find victim hood to be a crock, you live >>>with the world you're given, but some people make it their carriers. >>> >>>Brendan MacRae wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Well, yes, good point. But I was referring to the point of view of Nativists who claim to be "true Americans," vis-a-vis their fellow immigrants. The idea that it's "those others" that endager "us" rather than the point of view of true Native Americans (to whom all whites were a threat) which is what you describe. Nativism is, paridoxically, a construct that doesn't apply to them since it describes only those who tout a dubious claim of originality. -Brendan --- Shel Belinkoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I think it has been. Once the Europeans came here, >Eden became endangered >... > >Shel > > > > > > > > > > > >>[Original Message] >>From: Brendan MacRae >> >>The idea that America is an "endangered >>Eden." It isn't, of course. It never has been. >> >> >> >> > >-- >PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >PDML@pdml.net >http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > > > > >
Re: PESO - American Fence
> I didn't sense that you were Ken (trying to force the same suit). > > I think your point has been that you are willing to take toleration to about > any extreme. But when those for whom you have a natural tolerance, begin to > infringe on your freedoms then they are overstepping their bounds. > > Case in point in the news recently. Some Muslim cab drivers at airports > that will not carry passengers that are transporting wine or alcohol after > arriving home from a trip. Their personal convictions or religious beliefs > are fine but should not go so far as to stop them providing a fair public > utility to all. Tom, this is excellent example. I am with you here. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
- Original Message - From: "David Savage" Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > The better idea is to stop encroaching on their natural habitat & > separate man & bear. You'll seperate me from my beer when the Riders win the Grey Cup. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
They were also fully "modern humans", who we know are adaptable, and in many ways as hard to kill as a cockroach. Gonz wrote: > Well, here's the archeological evidence that led the author to that > conclusion: > * they had no agricultural technology, i.e. they were hunter gatherers, > this came from their fossilized remains + the remains of their prey > * they were huge, large skulls and bones > * their weapons were huge, designed to take down large game > * they hardly lived past the age of 20, from the bone record, the > author guesses this is because of the riskiness of taking down such > dangerous prey > * they lived right before the end of the ice age > * their prey moved north as it got warmer > * their prey went extinct, probably due to the global warming, which > caused their food source to go away > * the nearest arrival of the next wave of immigrants (mongoloid) came > much much later > * some evidence of cannibalism is present, which may or may not > indicate desperate situation, or it could just indicate some type of > ritual killing > * their short life span created a small birth rate > > So, it might not be so far fetched. We will never know for sure of course. > > rg > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> Oh, I agree that there were precursors to the current Native Americans, >> there's a fare amount of evidence, of them, but global warming killing >> them off, really. That's what's silly. >> >> Gonz wrote: >> >> >>> What's silly about it. Its not talking about the native americans that >>> were here when the Europeans arrived. Its talking about their >>> predecessors. How do you explain their archeological remains? >>> >>> rg >>> >>> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>> >>> >>> That's just silly... Gonz wrote: > A book I'm reading right now indicates that the evidence points to these > first settlers to have been done in by.drum roll please "Global > Warming". Yup, the melting of the last Ice Age drove all the > elephant-like creatures and huge jumbo bison further north and > eventually to extinction. The native humans could not adapt, and they > died off. Apparently they had no mongoloid features, so they were not > the same race of people as the later settlers. > > rg > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > >> I think that describes many "Native American's" quite well There is >> some evidence that those who emigrated from Asia during the last ice age >> weren't the first, but it doesn't fit the stereotype so this evidence is >> sometimes suppressed. The current natives may have actually displaced >> earlier residents of this continent, thus depriving them of ultimate >> victim hood. Personally I find victim hood to be a crock, you live >> with the world you're given, but some people make it their carriers. >> >> Brendan MacRae wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> Well, yes, good point. >>> >>> But I was referring to the point of view of Nativists >>> who claim to be "true Americans," vis-a-vis their >>> fellow immigrants. The idea that it's "those others" >>> that endager "us" rather than the point of view of >>> true Native Americans (to whom all whites were a >>> threat) which is what you describe. Nativism is, >>> paridoxically, a construct that doesn't apply to them >>> since it describes only those who tout a dubious claim >>> of originality. >>> >>> -Brendan >>> >>> --- Shel Belinkoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I think it has been. Once the Europeans came here, Eden became endangered ... Shel > [Original Message] > From: Brendan MacRae > > The idea that America is an "endangered > Eden." It isn't, of course. It never has been. > > > > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >>> __ >>> Do You Yahoo!? >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>> http://mail.yahoo.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > >>> >>> >> >>
Re: PESO - American Fence
Ken, I see what you're saying. Or at least I hope I do. However the phrase "I don't hate foreigners, but I detest their efforts to bring their country with them.", which I guess you remember, evidently can be understood in more than one way. I am very much willing to accept that the way I understood it was wrong. More below. > Enjoy your & celebrate your heritage & cultural values, but I don't want > (not specifically you Boris) you to impose your cultural values on me. I won't. Why would I want to impose on you anything except the laws of your own country should I find that you break them? But then again, if you come to visit my house expect to see things done my way which of course is *not* going to be designed to offend you in any possible way. >> I do apologize profoundly, but I am both Jewish and Russian, and neither >> of which I am going to be willing to abandon in any foreseeable future. > > If you thought that I implied that you're wrong. Good, then you and I are definitely on the same side of the dispute here. >> I should also say that I am very surprised to see how much mutual >> intolerance there is among the members of this very friendly community >> should it touch the national symbols and citizenship. > > Is a discussion of viewpoints really intolerance? Have I abused someone on > this list? I have had a private off-list conversation with another list member who also participated in this thread. He seems to agree with my point of view. Again, it definitely could be that you, Ken, did not express intolerance, but generally I stand by what I am saying. >> Folks, the world is diverse. It is so for the reason. So let us not try >> to force the same suit on everyone. > > Do you really think I was trying to do that. America is a "melting pot" or whatever is the name. So everyone who comes in *is supposed* to melt and transform to something different. I find it rather poor approach. Apart from differences in language it seems that you and I have great many things in common though. Which is a good thing, I say. Cheers! And of course I'd be glad to shake your hand in person or otherwise on the list ;-). Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
- Original Message - From: "Christian" Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence >> Bill, you're the greatest Mark!! HAR William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
The better idea is to stop encroaching on their natural habitat & separate man & bear. I've got some rather gory pictures here showing what happens when a black bear catches a man. It isn't pretty. Cheers, Dave On 1/11/07, Walter Hamler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I personally subscribe to the growing philosophy that we need to arm Bears > rather than bear arms!! That would keep the hunters away and allow the Bears > to live and let live! :-) > > Walt -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Well, here's the archeological evidence that led the author to that conclusion: * they had no agricultural technology, i.e. they were hunter gatherers, this came from their fossilized remains + the remains of their prey * they were huge, large skulls and bones * their weapons were huge, designed to take down large game * they hardly lived past the age of 20, from the bone record, the author guesses this is because of the riskiness of taking down such dangerous prey * they lived right before the end of the ice age * their prey moved north as it got warmer * their prey went extinct, probably due to the global warming, which caused their food source to go away * the nearest arrival of the next wave of immigrants (mongoloid) came much much later * some evidence of cannibalism is present, which may or may not indicate desperate situation, or it could just indicate some type of ritual killing * their short life span created a small birth rate So, it might not be so far fetched. We will never know for sure of course. rg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Oh, I agree that there were precursors to the current Native Americans, > there's a fare amount of evidence, of them, but global warming killing > them off, really. That's what's silly. > > Gonz wrote: > >>What's silly about it. Its not talking about the native americans that >>were here when the Europeans arrived. Its talking about their >>predecessors. How do you explain their archeological remains? >> >>rg >> >> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> >> >>>That's just silly... >>> >>>Gonz wrote: >>> >>> >>> A book I'm reading right now indicates that the evidence points to these first settlers to have been done in by.drum roll please "Global Warming". Yup, the melting of the last Ice Age drove all the elephant-like creatures and huge jumbo bison further north and eventually to extinction. The native humans could not adapt, and they died off. Apparently they had no mongoloid features, so they were not the same race of people as the later settlers. rg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >I think that describes many "Native American's" quite well There is >some evidence that those who emigrated from Asia during the last ice age >weren't the first, but it doesn't fit the stereotype so this evidence is >sometimes suppressed. The current natives may have actually displaced >earlier residents of this continent, thus depriving them of ultimate >victim hood. Personally I find victim hood to be a crock, you live >with the world you're given, but some people make it their carriers. > >Brendan MacRae wrote: > > > > > >>Well, yes, good point. >> >>But I was referring to the point of view of Nativists >>who claim to be "true Americans," vis-a-vis their >>fellow immigrants. The idea that it's "those others" >>that endager "us" rather than the point of view of >>true Native Americans (to whom all whites were a >>threat) which is what you describe. Nativism is, >>paridoxically, a construct that doesn't apply to them >>since it describes only those who tout a dubious claim >>of originality. >> >>-Brendan >> >>--- Shel Belinkoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>I think it has been. Once the Europeans came here, >>>Eden became endangered >>>... >>> >>>Shel >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> [Original Message] From: Brendan MacRae The idea that America is an "endangered Eden." It isn't, of course. It never has been. >>> >>>-- >>>PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>>PDML@pdml.net >>>http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>__ >>Do You Yahoo!? >>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> >> >> > > > >>> >>> >> >> > > > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Well there certainly was a period of global warming following the last ice age. Whether or not it had anything to do with the demise of this ancient civilization is obviously uncertain. Paul On Jan 10, 2007, at 10:43 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: > Oh, I agree that there were precursors to the current Native > Americans, > there's a fare amount of evidence, of them, but global warming killing > them off, really. That's what's silly. > > Gonz wrote: >> What's silly about it. Its not talking about the native americans >> that >> were here when the Europeans arrived. Its talking about their >> predecessors. How do you explain their archeological remains? >> >> rg >> >> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> >>> That's just silly... >>> >>> Gonz wrote: >>> >>> A book I'm reading right now indicates that the evidence points to these first settlers to have been done in by.drum roll please "Global Warming". Yup, the melting of the last Ice Age drove all the elephant-like creatures and huge jumbo bison further north and eventually to extinction. The native humans could not adapt, and they died off. Apparently they had no mongoloid features, so they were not the same race of people as the later settlers. rg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I think that describes many "Native American's" quite well > There is > some evidence that those who emigrated from Asia during the > last ice age > weren't the first, but it doesn't fit the stereotype so this > evidence is > sometimes suppressed. The current natives may have actually > displaced > earlier residents of this continent, thus depriving them of > ultimate > victim hood. Personally I find victim hood to be a crock, you > live > with the world you're given, but some people make it their > carriers. > > Brendan MacRae wrote: > > > > >> Well, yes, good point. >> >> But I was referring to the point of view of Nativists >> who claim to be "true Americans," vis-a-vis their >> fellow immigrants. The idea that it's "those others" >> that endager "us" rather than the point of view of >> true Native Americans (to whom all whites were a >> threat) which is what you describe. Nativism is, >> paridoxically, a construct that doesn't apply to them >> since it describes only those who tout a dubious claim >> of originality. >> >> -Brendan >> >> --- Shel Belinkoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> I think it has been. Once the Europeans came here, >>> Eden became endangered >>> ... >>> >>> Shel >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> [Original Message] From: Brendan MacRae The idea that America is an "endangered Eden." It isn't, of course. It never has been. >>> -- >>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>> PDML@pdml.net >>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >>> >>> >>> >>> >> __ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> >> >> > > >>> >>> >> >> > > > -- > -- > > The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. > -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Oh, I agree that there were precursors to the current Native Americans, there's a fare amount of evidence, of them, but global warming killing them off, really. That's what's silly. Gonz wrote: > What's silly about it. Its not talking about the native americans that > were here when the Europeans arrived. Its talking about their > predecessors. How do you explain their archeological remains? > > rg > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> That's just silly... >> >> Gonz wrote: >> >> >>> A book I'm reading right now indicates that the evidence points to these >>> first settlers to have been done in by.drum roll please "Global >>> Warming". Yup, the melting of the last Ice Age drove all the >>> elephant-like creatures and huge jumbo bison further north and >>> eventually to extinction. The native humans could not adapt, and they >>> died off. Apparently they had no mongoloid features, so they were not >>> the same race of people as the later settlers. >>> >>> rg >>> >>> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>> >>> >>> I think that describes many "Native American's" quite well There is some evidence that those who emigrated from Asia during the last ice age weren't the first, but it doesn't fit the stereotype so this evidence is sometimes suppressed. The current natives may have actually displaced earlier residents of this continent, thus depriving them of ultimate victim hood. Personally I find victim hood to be a crock, you live with the world you're given, but some people make it their carriers. Brendan MacRae wrote: > Well, yes, good point. > > But I was referring to the point of view of Nativists > who claim to be "true Americans," vis-a-vis their > fellow immigrants. The idea that it's "those others" > that endager "us" rather than the point of view of > true Native Americans (to whom all whites were a > threat) which is what you describe. Nativism is, > paridoxically, a construct that doesn't apply to them > since it describes only those who tout a dubious claim > of originality. > > -Brendan > > --- Shel Belinkoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > >> I think it has been. Once the Europeans came here, >> Eden became endangered >> ... >> >> Shel >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> [Original Message] >>> From: Brendan MacRae >>> >>> The idea that America is an "endangered >>> Eden." It isn't, of course. It never has been. >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> >> >> >> > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > >>> >>> >> >> > > -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
What's silly about it. Its not talking about the native americans that were here when the Europeans arrived. Its talking about their predecessors. How do you explain their archeological remains? rg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > That's just silly... > > Gonz wrote: > >>A book I'm reading right now indicates that the evidence points to these >>first settlers to have been done in by.drum roll please "Global >>Warming". Yup, the melting of the last Ice Age drove all the >>elephant-like creatures and huge jumbo bison further north and >>eventually to extinction. The native humans could not adapt, and they >>died off. Apparently they had no mongoloid features, so they were not >>the same race of people as the later settlers. >> >>rg >> >> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> >> >>>I think that describes many "Native American's" quite well There is >>>some evidence that those who emigrated from Asia during the last ice age >>>weren't the first, but it doesn't fit the stereotype so this evidence is >>>sometimes suppressed. The current natives may have actually displaced >>>earlier residents of this continent, thus depriving them of ultimate >>>victim hood. Personally I find victim hood to be a crock, you live >>>with the world you're given, but some people make it their carriers. >>> >>>Brendan MacRae wrote: >>> >>> >>> Well, yes, good point. But I was referring to the point of view of Nativists who claim to be "true Americans," vis-a-vis their fellow immigrants. The idea that it's "those others" that endager "us" rather than the point of view of true Native Americans (to whom all whites were a threat) which is what you describe. Nativism is, paridoxically, a construct that doesn't apply to them since it describes only those who tout a dubious claim of originality. -Brendan --- Shel Belinkoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I think it has been. Once the Europeans came here, >Eden became endangered >... > >Shel > > > > > > > >>[Original Message] >>From: Brendan MacRae >> >>The idea that America is an "endangered >>Eden." It isn't, of course. It never has been. >> >> > >-- >PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >PDML@pdml.net >http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com >>> >>> >> >> > > > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
On Jan 10, 2007, at 8:38 PM, Brendan MacRae wrote: > Like I said before, even if some anthropologist comes > across evidence of the most brutal tribe in the > history of man, They already have. > I won't be swayed on my belief that > Native Americans were a remarkable people. Besides, > looking at such things now with modern eyes ... Or with rose-colored glasses? Yes, it's better to ignore the scientific evidence and instead subscribe to the popular PC myths. Paul -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
On 1/10/07 8:13 PM, "P. J. Alling", <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > There's a theory that Mohawk is derived either from the Narraganset word > for man-eater or the Unami term that translates as cannibal-monsters. > Whether it was due to their warlike nature or actual eating of human > flesh it could account for stories of cannibalism. There were also > stories of ritual cannibalism among the Aztec, however what's known or > suspected of South and Central American Native Civilizations gets > revised, sometimes radically from time to time. Oh my...! PDML really gone wild and insane :-). Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Actually you're incorrect. The smallpox infected blanket trick was most certainly understood and the use thereof against the plains tribes is recorded historical fact. Note this only occured 150 years ago, when people already had a basic understanding of infectious diseases (Didn't now how they worked, but did know that they did and a basic idea of how to prevent it). This is very different from the virgin field epidemics that occured after the initial settlements in the late 15th and early 16th centuries, when there was essentially no medical science known in europe beyond bleeding and leeches. -Adam P. J. Alling wrote: > This is well, just wrong. The methods of how diseases were transmitted > just wasn't well enough understood to run a campaign using such a > weapon. You didn't need to do it on purpose, it seems that moderns have > forgotten just virulent smallpox is and what it does to un-protected > populations. Now killing the buffalo, that was well understood. > > > > Shel Belinkoff wrote: >> Not true ... they were purposely infected with smallpox and possibly other >> diseases, and the plains Indians had there main food source, the buffalo, >> almost completed wiped out. It was genocide, pure and simple. >> >> Shel >> >> >> >> >>> [Original Message] >>> From: Adam Maas >>> >> >>> The primary reason for the massive population drop wasn't wholesale >>> slaughter. It was the unthinking introduction of several virulent and >>> deadly diseases to a population with essentially no resistances to them. >>> And frankly there was no way the Europeans would have had any inkling of >>> how dangerous that was. >>> >>> This isn't to say that the survivors weren't treated extremely badly. >>> But the population crash wasn't caused by wholesale slaughter. >>> >> >> >> > > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Like I said before, even if some anthropologist comes across evidence of the most brutal tribe in the history of man, I won't be swayed on my belief that Native Americans were a remarkable people. Besides, looking at such things now with modern eyes and societal mores does history an injustice. The Coloseum is a terrific feat of engineering but what took place there was barbaric through modern eyes. Remember, modern American society produced Jeffrey Dahmer. Cannibalism and ritual torture still exist. I hope that future historians won't judge all of us on the actions of someone like him. -Brendan --- Paul Stenquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You can easily find reference in regard to the > cannibalism and other > atrocities. The NY Times printed an article in the > science section a > couple of weeks ago. It's probably still online. > Archaeologists working > in the southwest found human DNA in human feces. And > it didn't match. > They also found evidence of infant sacrifice. Among > the latter were > infant skulls with holes drilled in the back of > them. Apparently, a > slow brutal death. > Paul > On Jan 10, 2007, at 6:11 PM, Brendan MacRae wrote: > > > Not sure about incest and cannibalism. I've never > > heard of these things being prevalent. > > > > In any event, my point is that, in this sense, > idyllic > > is relative. I never said that the New World was a > > peaceful paradise prior to the arrival of whites. > My > > view is that they were better off no matter what > was > > going on prior to colonization. And any harping > about > > what WAS going on is an attempt (in my view) to > > denegrate their prehistory. A way leveling the > playing > > field by saying they were no better than anyone > else. > > Why else bring it up? > > > > That their "true" history is not the "stuff of > > storybooks" means nothing to me. I don't believe > in > > storybooks, only what I've studied and read about. > And > > believing that they had a remarkable society is > not > > simply buying into fairytales. It comes from > > understanding history. > > > > -Brendan > > > > > > > > -Brendan > > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > >> Rape, incest, torture, and cannibalism are > nothing? > >> Sorry, but the view of the native American world > as > >> idyllic is the stuff of storybooks. > >> Paul > >> > >> -- Original message > >> -- > >> From: Brendan MacRae > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>> Well, maybe not explicitly, no. But "idyllic" is > >> what > >>> most tribes would consider their existance prior > >> to > >>> arrival of whites. They may have had their > >> internal > >>> struggles but it was nothing compared to the > >> onslaught > >>> of white aggression. > >>> > >>> It just seemed like that was where that notion > was > >>> heading. If not, my bad. > >>> > >>> ;-] > >>> > >>> -Brendan > >>> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >>> > >>>> No one suggested anything of the kind. My > >> original > >>>> post was in response to a suggestion that life > >> in > >>>> North America was idyllic before the arrival of > >>>> Europeans. > >>>> Paul > >>>> -- Original message > >>>> -- > >>>> From: Brendan MacRae > >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>>> > >>>>> --- William Robb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> - Original Message - > >>>>>> From: "Paul Stenquist" Subject: Re: PESO - > >>>> American > >>>>>> Fence > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> But the New York Times is probably the > >> most > >>>>>> liberal daily newspaper in > >>>>>>> the U.S. They always take the side of the > >>>>>> oppressed minority if they > >>>>>>> can. On the other hand, they don't ignore > >>>>>> inconvenient facts. > >>>>>>> Considering the source I wouldn't call > >> this > >>>>>> "histo
Re: PESO - American Fence
Actually Buffalo Bill at one point advocating protection for the Bison, (late in his life that is). Tom C wrote: > And here I thought Buffalo Bill was to blame. > > > > Tom C. > > > >> From: "William Robb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" >> Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence >> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 17:56:36 -0600 >> >> >> - Original Message - >> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence >> >> >> >>> frank theriault wrote: >>> >>>> In addition, the slaughter, almost to extinction, of the American >>>> Bison was a conscientious attempt to eliminate something that, both >>>> physically and spiritually, was necessary to Native survival in the >>>> West. >>>> >>>> >>> The extinction of the bison was largely the result of an attempt to feed >>> the men who built the transcontinental railroad. >>> >> Nope, sorry. You've been fed bad information at a young age. The bison >> hunts >> were a deliberate attempt by the American government to end the Indian wars >> by removing their main source of sustenance, and to make said Indians bow >> to >> the will of the invading army. >> Like I said, my dad was a student of native history. >> >> William Robb >> >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> > > > > -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
This is well, just wrong. The methods of how diseases were transmitted just wasn't well enough understood to run a campaign using such a weapon. You didn't need to do it on purpose, it seems that moderns have forgotten just virulent smallpox is and what it does to un-protected populations. Now killing the buffalo, that was well understood. Shel Belinkoff wrote: > Not true ... they were purposely infected with smallpox and possibly other > diseases, and the plains Indians had there main food source, the buffalo, > almost completed wiped out. It was genocide, pure and simple. > > Shel > > > > >> [Original Message] >> From: Adam Maas >> > > >> The primary reason for the massive population drop wasn't wholesale >> slaughter. It was the unthinking introduction of several virulent and >> deadly diseases to a population with essentially no resistances to them. >> And frankly there was no way the Europeans would have had any inkling of >> how dangerous that was. >> >> This isn't to say that the survivors weren't treated extremely badly. >> But the population crash wasn't caused by wholesale slaughter. >> > > > > -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
William Robb wrote: > - Original Message - > From: "Christian" Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > > >> David Savage wrote: >>> Which raises another question, how expensive is private health insurance? >> As far as I know, it doesn't exist in Canada. > > Sure it does. In my neck of the woods we call it Montana. Bill, you're the greatest ROTFLMAO :-) -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Huh, interesting. I hadn't heard that before. But, as I said, it still doesn't color my overall view of Native American societies. -Brendan --- "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > There's a theory that Mohawk is derived either from > the Narraganset word > for man-eater or the Unami term that translates as > cannibal-monsters. > Whether it was due to their warlike nature or actual > eating of human > flesh it could account for stories of cannibalism. > There were also > stories of ritual cannibalism among the Aztec, > however what's known or > suspected of South and Central American Native > Civilizations gets > revised, sometimes radically from time to time. > > Brendan MacRae wrote: > > Not sure about incest and cannibalism. I've never > > heard of these things being prevalent. > > > > In any event, my point is that, in this sense, > idyllic > > is relative. I never said that the New World was a > > peaceful paradise prior to the arrival of whites. > My > > view is that they were better off no matter what > was > > going on prior to colonization. And any harping > about > > what WAS going on is an attempt (in my view) to > > denegrate their prehistory. A way leveling the > playing > > field by saying they were no better than anyone > else. > > Why else bring it up? > > > > That their "true" history is not the "stuff of > > storybooks" means nothing to me. I don't believe > in > > storybooks, only what I've studied and read about. > And > > believing that they had a remarkable society is > not > > simply buying into fairytales. It comes from > > understanding history. > > > > -Brendan > > > > > > > > -Brendan > > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > >> Rape, incest, torture, and cannibalism are > nothing? > >> Sorry, but the view of the native American world > as > >> idyllic is the stuff of storybooks. > >> Paul > >> > >> -- Original message > >> -- > >> From: Brendan MacRae > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> > >>> Well, maybe not explicitly, no. But "idyllic" is > >>> > >> what > >> > >>> most tribes would consider their existance prior > >>> > >> to > >> > >>> arrival of whites. They may have had their > >>> > >> internal > >> > >>> struggles but it was nothing compared to the > >>> > >> onslaught > >> > >>> of white aggression. > >>> > >>> It just seemed like that was where that notion > was > >>> heading. If not, my bad. > >>> > >>> ;-] > >>> > >>> -Brendan > >>> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> No one suggested anything of the kind. My > >>>> > >> original > >> > >>>> post was in response to a suggestion that life > >>>> > >> in > >> > >>>> North America was idyllic before the arrival of > >>>> Europeans. > >>>> Paul > >>>> -- Original message > >>>> -- > >>>> From: Brendan MacRae > >>>> > >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> > >>>>> --- William Robb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>>> > >> wrote: > >> > >>>>>> - Original Message - > >>>>>> From: "Paul Stenquist" Subject: Re: PESO - > >>>>>> > >>>> American > >>>> > >>>>>> Fence > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> But the New York Times is probably the > >>>>>>> > >> most > >> > >>>>>> liberal daily newspaper in > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> the U.S. They always take the side of the > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> oppressed minority if they > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> can. On the other hand
Re: PESO - American Fence
You can easily find reference in regard to the cannibalism and other atrocities. The NY Times printed an article in the science section a couple of weeks ago. It's probably still online. Archaeologists working in the southwest found human DNA in human feces. And it didn't match. They also found evidence of infant sacrifice. Among the latter were infant skulls with holes drilled in the back of them. Apparently, a slow brutal death. Paul On Jan 10, 2007, at 6:11 PM, Brendan MacRae wrote: > Not sure about incest and cannibalism. I've never > heard of these things being prevalent. > > In any event, my point is that, in this sense, idyllic > is relative. I never said that the New World was a > peaceful paradise prior to the arrival of whites. My > view is that they were better off no matter what was > going on prior to colonization. And any harping about > what WAS going on is an attempt (in my view) to > denegrate their prehistory. A way leveling the playing > field by saying they were no better than anyone else. > Why else bring it up? > > That their "true" history is not the "stuff of > storybooks" means nothing to me. I don't believe in > storybooks, only what I've studied and read about. And > believing that they had a remarkable society is not > simply buying into fairytales. It comes from > understanding history. > > -Brendan > > > > -Brendan > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> Rape, incest, torture, and cannibalism are nothing? >> Sorry, but the view of the native American world as >> idyllic is the stuff of storybooks. >> Paul >> >> -- Original message >> -- >> From: Brendan MacRae <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> Well, maybe not explicitly, no. But "idyllic" is >> what >>> most tribes would consider their existance prior >> to >>> arrival of whites. They may have had their >> internal >>> struggles but it was nothing compared to the >> onslaught >>> of white aggression. >>> >>> It just seemed like that was where that notion was >>> heading. If not, my bad. >>> >>> ;-] >>> >>> -Brendan >>> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>> >>>> No one suggested anything of the kind. My >> original >>>> post was in response to a suggestion that life >> in >>>> North America was idyllic before the arrival of >>>> Europeans. >>>> Paul >>>> -- Original message >>>> -- >>>> From: Brendan MacRae >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>> >>>>> --- William Robb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> - Original Message - >>>>>> From: "Paul Stenquist" Subject: Re: PESO - >>>> American >>>>>> Fence >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> But the New York Times is probably the >> most >>>>>> liberal daily newspaper in >>>>>>> the U.S. They always take the side of the >>>>>> oppressed minority if they >>>>>>> can. On the other hand, they don't ignore >>>>>> inconvenient facts. >>>>>>> Considering the source I wouldn't call >> this >>>>>> "history rewritten by the >>>>>>> victors." The article about the violent >>>> cultures >>>>>> of the native >>>>>>> Americans appeared in the science section. >> In >>>>>> truth, it's history >>>>>>> rewritten by archaeologists. >>>>>> >>>>>> My father was a student of local history. >> His >>>> take >>>>>> on pre-European life in >>>>>> North America pretty much jives with what >> you >>>> are >>>>>> saying. His take on >>>>>> post-European life from the Aboriginal point >> of >>>> view >>>>>> was that the vilence >>>>>> shifted from internal to external and they >>>> really >>>>>> weren't any better off for >>>>>> the European invasion. >>>>>> >>>>>> William Robb >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> While slavery, copious killing, rape and >
Re: PESO - American Fence
Not really, since a drunk being arrested makes a lot of noise as well. But he still gets arrested, it's not usually worthwhile to have a gun battle to avoid a night in the drunk tank. The neighbors will look at it the same way. Blowing up the apartment next door is messy and bureaucrats hate messy. DagT wrote: > Then it would have been enough to make some noise to avoid the > arrest, wouldn´t it? > > Anyway, gas is silent and the Russians used it recently in the > theater hostage affair. Remember? > > DagT > > Den 10. jan. 2007 kl. 23.25 skrev P. J. Alling: > > >> Nothing really, no I take that back. The secret police prefer to work >> in silence, grenades are so publicly noisy, and hard to ignore. >> >> DagT wrote: >> >>> Great idea! What would stop them from throwing in a hand grenade >>> instead, or some gas? Sure, the camps would have been emptier. >>> >>> DagT >>> >>> Den 10. jan. 2007 kl. 21.48 skrev Bob Sullivan: >>> >>> >>> >>>> I've heard that Boris's Russian countryman, Alexander Solzenitzen, >>>> thought the gulags would have been a lot emptier in their day if the >>>> secret police were uncertain which of their middle of the night >>>> raids >>>> would have been met with a loaded gun. >>>> Regards, Bob S. >>>> >>>> On 1/10/07, Tom C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Well my point (even though I'm not anti-gun) is that it's better >>>>> for no one >>>>> to be armed than anybody to be armed. That's what logic dictates >>>>> to me. >>>>> >>>>> Rather than fighting violence with violence, find a way to stop the >>>>> violence. That's also logical. >>>>> >>>>> Tom C. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> From: "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>>>>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>>>>> Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence >>>>>> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 13:34:22 -0500 >>>>>> >>>>>> There is a matter of proportion however nuclear weapons are >>>>>> more the >>>>>> province of governments. A single person with a gun is unlikely >>>>>> to kill >>>>>> a lot of people before they're stopped, (by my definition of a lot >>>>>> anyway). A government with an army and a lot of guns, or a single >>>>>> nuclear weapon can kill a whole lot of people. For that reason >>>>>> alone I >>>>>> believe logic dictates tis better for individuals to be armed and >>>>>> governments to be disarmed. >>>>>> >>>>>> Tom C wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Guns kill just like nuclear weapons kill. In fact guns have >>>>>>> killed more >>>>>>> people than nuclear weapons... so far. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In retrospect, *probably* both inventions were a bad idea. They >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> both >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> led to untold injury, death, and suffering. Their purpose is >>>>>>> largely, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> kill, unlike other inventions which may endanger life. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Am I anti-gun? No. Just making a point. Sure this is >>>>>>> simplistic, but >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> truth often is. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tom C. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>&g
Re: PESO - American Fence
There's a theory that Mohawk is derived either from the Narraganset word for man-eater or the Unami term that translates as cannibal-monsters. Whether it was due to their warlike nature or actual eating of human flesh it could account for stories of cannibalism. There were also stories of ritual cannibalism among the Aztec, however what's known or suspected of South and Central American Native Civilizations gets revised, sometimes radically from time to time. Brendan MacRae wrote: > Not sure about incest and cannibalism. I've never > heard of these things being prevalent. > > In any event, my point is that, in this sense, idyllic > is relative. I never said that the New World was a > peaceful paradise prior to the arrival of whites. My > view is that they were better off no matter what was > going on prior to colonization. And any harping about > what WAS going on is an attempt (in my view) to > denegrate their prehistory. A way leveling the playing > field by saying they were no better than anyone else. > Why else bring it up? > > That their "true" history is not the "stuff of > storybooks" means nothing to me. I don't believe in > storybooks, only what I've studied and read about. And > believing that they had a remarkable society is not > simply buying into fairytales. It comes from > understanding history. > > -Brendan > > > > -Brendan > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > >> Rape, incest, torture, and cannibalism are nothing? >> Sorry, but the view of the native American world as >> idyllic is the stuff of storybooks. >> Paul >> >> -- Original message >> -- >> From: Brendan MacRae <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >>> Well, maybe not explicitly, no. But "idyllic" is >>> >> what >> >>> most tribes would consider their existance prior >>> >> to >> >>> arrival of whites. They may have had their >>> >> internal >> >>> struggles but it was nothing compared to the >>> >> onslaught >> >>> of white aggression. >>> >>> It just seemed like that was where that notion was >>> heading. If not, my bad. >>> >>> ;-] >>> >>> -Brendan >>> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>> >>> >>>> No one suggested anything of the kind. My >>>> >> original >> >>>> post was in response to a suggestion that life >>>> >> in >> >>>> North America was idyllic before the arrival of >>>> Europeans. >>>> Paul >>>> -- Original message >>>> -- >>>> From: Brendan MacRae >>>> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >>>>> --- William Robb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>> >> wrote: >> >>>>>> - Original Message - >>>>>> From: "Paul Stenquist" Subject: Re: PESO - >>>>>> >>>> American >>>> >>>>>> Fence >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> But the New York Times is probably the >>>>>>> >> most >> >>>>>> liberal daily newspaper in >>>>>> >>>>>>> the U.S. They always take the side of the >>>>>>> >>>>>> oppressed minority if they >>>>>> >>>>>>> can. On the other hand, they don't ignore >>>>>>> >>>>>> inconvenient facts. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Considering the source I wouldn't call >>>>>>> >> this >> >>>>>> "history rewritten by the >>>>>> >>>>>>> victors." The article about the violent >>>>>>> >>>> cultures >>>> >>>>>> of the native >>>>>> >>>>>>> Americans appeared in the science section. >>>>>>> >> In >> >>>>>> truth, it's history &
Re: PESO - American Fence
Here in Canada almost all shootings are drug/gang related or accidental. Deaths from suicides, armed robberies and domestic disputes are overwhelmingly via other means. -Adam P. J. Alling wrote: > Most shootings are suicides, followed in no particular order since I > don't know the breakdown, by domestic, armed robbery, drug related, or > gang related and accidental discharge, (which covers a multiple of > sins). I suppose any of them might involve fear, but I don't think it's > a valid statement the people shoot each other out of fear, though I > suppose that if someone was breaking into my house and I shot them that > would be a valid statement that I shot them out of fear, however I > believe that shooting would be wholly justified. Though if someone > wants to kill them selves how could anyone who believes in a right to > die deny them the most efficient tool for the job. > > DagT wrote: >> We have more guns per 1000 persons than you but you have more people >> killed by guns per 1000 persons. >> >> OK, I assumed that people use their guns against people because of >> fear. If that is not correct, then why do they kill? >> >> DagT >> >> Den 10. jan. 2007 kl. 22.26 skrev P. J. Alling: >> >> >>> HUH? >>> >>> DagT wrote: >>> That may be, but a larger percentage use it against other people. DagT Den 10. jan. 2007 kl. 17.46 skrev P. J. Alling: > There are very few people in the US who feel the need to use them > either. > > DagT wrote: > > >>> Fra: Brendan MacRae <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> >>> >>> --- David Savage <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Of course guns don't cause crime, criminals do. Just like guns don't kill people. Cheers, Dave >>> Note to Tom: here I go again... >>> >>> Guns don't kill people; bullets do. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> Guns don't kill people, frightened people with guns do. >> >> We have a lot of guns here, I think we had more per person than >> the US in some survey, but people usually don't feel the need to >> use them. >> >> DagT >> >> >> >>> -- >>> -- >>> >>> The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. >>> -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael >>> >>> >>> -- >>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>> PDML@pdml.net >>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >>> >> DagT >> >> >> >> >> > > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Go to the Custer State Park in S. Dakota & you'll see plenty. As for food, Buffalo meat is reported to be healthier for you than beef. I can get Buffalo meat in Michigan, there are several small herds here & the burgers & steaks I've had were great. Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: "Tom C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 7:05 PM Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > >While this is wildly OT (usually, title and the contents part each other > >in >>a matter of hours in this list :-), this is interesting history, but >>sorry, >>I got lost somewhere. >>Are bison now extinct (or near extinct) or just endangered specie? >>I thought I saw a lot of them in western movies in their hey days. >> >>ken >> > > I can buy it at the local grocery store. Never have, but would if it were > priced right. > > Tom C. > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
>how expensive is private health insurance? >> As far as I know, it doesn't exist in Canada. > > Sure it does. In my neck of the woods we call it Montana. Now there's honesty for ya.! Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: "William Robb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > > - Original Message - > From: "Christian" Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > > >> David Savage wrote: >>> Which raises another question, how expensive is private health >>> insurance? >> >> As far as I know, it doesn't exist in Canada. > > Sure it does. In my neck of the woods we call it Montana. > > William Robb > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Most shootings are suicides, followed in no particular order since I don't know the breakdown, by domestic, armed robbery, drug related, or gang related and accidental discharge, (which covers a multiple of sins). I suppose any of them might involve fear, but I don't think it's a valid statement the people shoot each other out of fear, though I suppose that if someone was breaking into my house and I shot them that would be a valid statement that I shot them out of fear, however I believe that shooting would be wholly justified. Though if someone wants to kill them selves how could anyone who believes in a right to die deny them the most efficient tool for the job. DagT wrote: > We have more guns per 1000 persons than you but you have more people > killed by guns per 1000 persons. > > OK, I assumed that people use their guns against people because of > fear. If that is not correct, then why do they kill? > > DagT > > Den 10. jan. 2007 kl. 22.26 skrev P. J. Alling: > > >> HUH? >> >> DagT wrote: >> >>> That may be, but a larger percentage use it against other people. >>> >>> DagT >>> >>> Den 10. jan. 2007 kl. 17.46 skrev P. J. Alling: >>> >>> >>> There are very few people in the US who feel the need to use them either. DagT wrote: >> Fra: Brendan MacRae <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> >> --- David Savage <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >>> Of course guns don't cause crime, criminals do. >>> >>> Just like guns don't kill people. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> >>> >> Note to Tom: here I go again... >> >> Guns don't kill people; bullets do. >> >> >> >> > Guns don't kill people, frightened people with guns do. > > We have a lot of guns here, I think we had more per person than > the US in some survey, but people usually don't feel the need to > use them. > > DagT > > > >>> >>> >> -- >> -- >> >> The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. >> -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael >> >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> > > DagT > > > > > -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
> Regina had 8 homicides last year, I think half a dozen were gunshots. Hell, New Orleans has had almost that many since the start of 07! Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: "William Robb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > > - Original Message - > From: "frank theriault" Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > > >> >> So much for reports that gun murders are out of control. The media >> was more than happy to scream to the world how violent Toronto and >> Canada are becoming; they seem oddly silent WRT 2006 stats. >> > > Macleans magazine apparently just named Regina's North Central district > the > worst neighbourhood in Canada. > North Central isn't an especially nice place, and there is a fair amount > of > crime generated there. > Regina had 8 homicides last year, I think half a dozen were gunshots. > > William Robb > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Tom C wrote: >> Too many people look at the marginal production cost of the pills and >> say the drug companies are ripping us off, not remembering the billions >> the first production pill costs these companies, and the incredible mass >> of regulations that they work under (which protects us, but >> significantly raises the development cost and timelines for these drugs). >> >> -Adam >> > > Just don't labor under the illusion that the Pharmaceutical companies are > our friends. > > Tom C. > Or that they're our enemies. -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
>Too many people look at the marginal production cost of the pills and >say the drug companies are ripping us off, not remembering the billions >the first production pill costs these companies, and the incredible mass >of regulations that they work under (which protects us, but >significantly raises the development cost and timelines for these drugs). > >-Adam > Just don't labor under the illusion that the Pharmaceutical companies are our friends. Tom C. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
William Robb wrote: > - Original Message - > From: "frank theriault" Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > > >> So much for reports that gun murders are out of control. The media >> was more than happy to scream to the world how violent Toronto and >> Canada are becoming; they seem oddly silent WRT 2006 stats. >> > > Macleans magazine apparently just named Regina's North Central district the > worst neighbourhood in Canada. > North Central isn't an especially nice place, and there is a fair amount of > crime generated there. > Regina had 8 homicides last year, I think half a dozen were gunshots. > > William Robb > > Interesting. I'm pretty sure I had more murders in my area of Toronto alone last year (I live on the eastern edge of Little Jamaica, near the violence-prone Oakwood/Vaughan area). -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Shel, That's true for the plains tribes. It's not for the north american native population of which they were a small fraction. The examples you site occured centuries after the original vigin field epidemics that I'm referring to. In fact those epidemics and that major die-off are how the Europeans learned about the suscebtibility to european diseases of the native population. -Adam Shel Belinkoff wrote: > Not true ... they were purposely infected with smallpox and possibly other > diseases, and the plains Indians had there main food source, the buffalo, > almost completed wiped out. It was genocide, pure and simple. > > Shel > > > >> [Original Message] >> From: Adam Maas > >> The primary reason for the massive population drop wasn't wholesale >> slaughter. It was the unthinking introduction of several virulent and >> deadly diseases to a population with essentially no resistances to them. >> And frankly there was no way the Europeans would have had any inkling of >> how dangerous that was. >> >> This isn't to say that the survivors weren't treated extremely badly. >> But the population crash wasn't caused by wholesale slaughter. > > > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
DagT wrote: > Den 10. jan. 2007 kl. 15.54 skrev Adam Maas: > >> David Savage wrote: >>> On 1/10/07, William Robb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Interestingly, the Americans seem to be flocking to Canadian pharmacies to take advantage of our much lower drug costs. >>> Does the Canadian government subsidise drug's like they do in Oz? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Dave >>> >> Yes, to an extent. More a case of regulated pricing. >> >> -Adam > > I think what happens is that most countries, but not the US, allow > other companies to make patented drugs if the patent owner rises the > price too much. > > DagT The issue is that these drugs cost billions to develop and certify. If it wasn't for the fact that the US has an unregulated market for pricing, and is such a major market most drug companies could not afford to invest in drug development as they cannot recoup their development costs during the patent period. The cost already steers them into concentrating on high-risk/high-payoff development. There's no money in the cure for the common cold, but a cure for cancer?. Too many people look at the marginal production cost of the pills and say the drug companies are ripping us off, not remembering the billions the first production pill costs these companies, and the incredible mass of regulations that they work under (which protects us, but significantly raises the development cost and timelines for these drugs). -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Depends on who you're talking about. That was probably true for most of the east coast tribes, who were fairly civilised agrarian peoples on the cusp of bronze-age civilization and the West Coast tribes, who lived in a virtual paradise. It certainly wasn't for the plains tribes, who were barely sustinence level nomads until the introduction of horses. They had a brief golden age between the european introduction of horses and contact with colonists on a regular basis 150-200 years later, but certainly were worse off before european colonization(when they really couldn't feed themselves). -Adam Brendan MacRae wrote: > Not sure about incest and cannibalism. I've never > heard of these things being prevalent. > > In any event, my point is that, in this sense, idyllic > is relative. I never said that the New World was a > peaceful paradise prior to the arrival of whites. My > view is that they were better off no matter what was > going on prior to colonization. And any harping about > what WAS going on is an attempt (in my view) to > denegrate their prehistory. A way leveling the playing > field by saying they were no better than anyone else. > Why else bring it up? > > That their "true" history is not the "stuff of > storybooks" means nothing to me. I don't believe in > storybooks, only what I've studied and read about. And > believing that they had a remarkable society is not > simply buying into fairytales. It comes from > understanding history. > > -Brendan > > > > -Brendan > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> Rape, incest, torture, and cannibalism are nothing? >> Sorry, but the view of the native American world as >> idyllic is the stuff of storybooks. >> Paul >> >> -- Original message >> -- >> From: Brendan MacRae <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> Well, maybe not explicitly, no. But "idyllic" is >> what >>> most tribes would consider their existance prior >> to >>> arrival of whites. They may have had their >> internal >>> struggles but it was nothing compared to the >> onslaught >>> of white aggression. >>> >>> It just seemed like that was where that notion was >>> heading. If not, my bad. >>> >>> ;-] >>> >>> -Brendan >>> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>> >>>> No one suggested anything of the kind. My >> original >>>> post was in response to a suggestion that life >> in >>>> North America was idyllic before the arrival of >>>> Europeans. >>>> Paul >>>> -- Original message >>>> -- >>>> From: Brendan MacRae >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>> --- William Robb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >>>>>> - Original Message - >>>>>> From: "Paul Stenquist" Subject: Re: PESO - >>>> American >>>>>> Fence >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> But the New York Times is probably the >> most >>>>>> liberal daily newspaper in >>>>>>> the U.S. They always take the side of the >>>>>> oppressed minority if they >>>>>>> can. On the other hand, they don't ignore >>>>>> inconvenient facts. >>>>>>> Considering the source I wouldn't call >> this >>>>>> "history rewritten by the >>>>>>> victors." The article about the violent >>>> cultures >>>>>> of the native >>>>>>> Americans appeared in the science section. >> In >>>>>> truth, it's history >>>>>>> rewritten by archaeologists. >>>>>> My father was a student of local history. >> His >>>> take >>>>>> on pre-European life in >>>>>> North America pretty much jives with what >> you >>>> are >>>>>> saying. His take on >>>>>> post-European life from the Aboriginal point >> of >>>> view >>>>>> was that the vilence >>>>>> shifted from internal to external and they >>>> really >>>>>> weren't any better off for >>>>>> the European invasion. >>>>>> >>>>>> William Robb >>>>>> >>>>> While slavery, copious killing, rape and >>
Re: PESO - American Fence
- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > Rape, incest, torture, and cannibalism are nothing? Sorry, but the view of > the native American world as idyllic is the stuff of storybooks. Sounds like last week in Arkansas. Or Prince Albert. Sorry, couldn't help myself WW -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
- Original Message - From: "frank theriault" Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > > I recall way back in grade 7 or 8, my teacher Mr. Wagner (wherever he > is now) telling us that America is a melting pot, and we're a salad > bowl. Immigrants come to your country to become part of American > culture. In Canada they retain their particular "flavour" yet still > become part of the whole (salad). > > I know that things have changed in the 40-odd years since that analogy > was given to me, but there's still some truth to it. It's probably more true now than it was when we were in elementary school (I got the same analogy). Since then, we have had government funded multiculturalism, and active encouragement of it. Personally, I think the funding could be better spent hiring doctors back from the States, but I'm not in charge of that department. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
>While this is wildly OT (usually, title and the contents part each other in >a matter of hours in this list :-), this is interesting history, but sorry, >I got lost somewhere. >Are bison now extinct (or near extinct) or just endangered specie? >I thought I saw a lot of them in western movies in their hey days. > >ken > I can buy it at the local grocery store. Never have, but would if it were priced right. Tom C. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
And here I thought Buffalo Bill was to blame. Tom C. >From: "William Robb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" >Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence >Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 17:56:36 -0600 > > >- Original Message ----- >From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > > > > > > frank theriault wrote: > >> In addition, the slaughter, almost to extinction, of the American > >> Bison was a conscientious attempt to eliminate something that, both > >> physically and spiritually, was necessary to Native survival in the > >> West. > >> > > The extinction of the bison was largely the result of an attempt to feed > > the men who built the transcontinental railroad. > > >Nope, sorry. You've been fed bad information at a young age. The bison >hunts >were a deliberate attempt by the American government to end the Indian wars >by removing their main source of sustenance, and to make said Indians bow >to >the will of the invading army. >Like I said, my dad was a student of native history. > >William Robb > > >-- >PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >PDML@pdml.net >http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
- Original Message - From: "Christian" Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > David Savage wrote: >> Which raises another question, how expensive is private health insurance? > > As far as I know, it doesn't exist in Canada. Sure it does. In my neck of the woods we call it Montana. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
- Original Message - From: "frank theriault" Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > > So much for reports that gun murders are out of control. The media > was more than happy to scream to the world how violent Toronto and > Canada are becoming; they seem oddly silent WRT 2006 stats. > Macleans magazine apparently just named Regina's North Central district the worst neighbourhood in Canada. North Central isn't an especially nice place, and there is a fair amount of crime generated there. Regina had 8 homicides last year, I think half a dozen were gunshots. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > > frank theriault wrote: >> In addition, the slaughter, almost to extinction, of the American >> Bison was a conscientious attempt to eliminate something that, both >> physically and spiritually, was necessary to Native survival in the >> West. >> > The extinction of the bison was largely the result of an attempt to feed > the men who built the transcontinental railroad. Nope, sorry. You've been fed bad information at a young age. The bison hunts were a deliberate attempt by the American government to end the Indian wars by removing their main source of sustenance, and to make said Indians bow to the will of the invading army. Like I said, my dad was a student of native history. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
On 1/10/07 6:48 PM, "Shel Belinkoff", <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That's only partially correct, but it's also a load bullshit, literally. > Bison were killed for sport and for their skins. There were bounties put > on bison and hunters were encouraged to massacre them. The extermination > of the bison was instigated in large part by the British who wanted to > starve the natives and to convert the plains to land more useful to cattle > production in order to satisfy their need/craving for beef. In fact, it > was the Brits who helped finance the railroads. While this is wildly OT (usually, title and the contents part each other in a matter of hours in this list :-), this is interesting history, but sorry, I got lost somewhere. Are bison now extinct (or near extinct) or just endangered specie? I thought I saw a lot of them in western movies in their hey days. ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
That's only partially correct, but it's also a load bullshit, literally. Bison were killed for sport and for their skins. There were bounties put on bison and hunters were encouraged to massacre them. The extermination of the bison was instigated in large part by the British who wanted to starve the natives and to convert the plains to land more useful to cattle production in order to satisfy their need/craving for beef. In fact, it was the Brits who helped finance the railroads. Shel > [Original Message] > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > The extinction of the bison was largely the result > of an attempt to feed the men who built the > transcontinental railroad. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Not true ... they were purposely infected with smallpox and possibly other diseases, and the plains Indians had there main food source, the buffalo, almost completed wiped out. It was genocide, pure and simple. Shel > [Original Message] > From: Adam Maas > The primary reason for the massive population drop wasn't wholesale > slaughter. It was the unthinking introduction of several virulent and > deadly diseases to a population with essentially no resistances to them. > And frankly there was no way the Europeans would have had any inkling of > how dangerous that was. > > This isn't to say that the survivors weren't treated extremely badly. > But the population crash wasn't caused by wholesale slaughter. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Not sure about incest and cannibalism. I've never heard of these things being prevalent. In any event, my point is that, in this sense, idyllic is relative. I never said that the New World was a peaceful paradise prior to the arrival of whites. My view is that they were better off no matter what was going on prior to colonization. And any harping about what WAS going on is an attempt (in my view) to denegrate their prehistory. A way leveling the playing field by saying they were no better than anyone else. Why else bring it up? That their "true" history is not the "stuff of storybooks" means nothing to me. I don't believe in storybooks, only what I've studied and read about. And believing that they had a remarkable society is not simply buying into fairytales. It comes from understanding history. -Brendan -Brendan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Rape, incest, torture, and cannibalism are nothing? > Sorry, but the view of the native American world as > idyllic is the stuff of storybooks. > Paul > > -- Original message > -- > From: Brendan MacRae <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Well, maybe not explicitly, no. But "idyllic" is > what > > most tribes would consider their existance prior > to > > arrival of whites. They may have had their > internal > > struggles but it was nothing compared to the > onslaught > > of white aggression. > > > > It just seemed like that was where that notion was > > heading. If not, my bad. > > > > ;-] > > > > -Brendan > > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > No one suggested anything of the kind. My > original > > > post was in response to a suggestion that life > in > > > North America was idyllic before the arrival of > > > Europeans. > > > Paul > > > -- Original message > > > -- > > > From: Brendan MacRae > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > --- William Robb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Original Message - > > > > > From: "Paul Stenquist" Subject: Re: PESO - > > > American > > > > > Fence > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But the New York Times is probably the > most > > > > > liberal daily newspaper in > > > > > > the U.S. They always take the side of the > > > > > oppressed minority if they > > > > > > can. On the other hand, they don't ignore > > > > > inconvenient facts. > > > > > > Considering the source I wouldn't call > this > > > > > "history rewritten by the > > > > > > victors." The article about the violent > > > cultures > > > > > of the native > > > > > > Americans appeared in the science section. > In > > > > > truth, it's history > > > > > > rewritten by archaeologists. > > > > > > > > > > My father was a student of local history. > His > > > take > > > > > on pre-European life in > > > > > North America pretty much jives with what > you > > > are > > > > > saying. His take on > > > > > post-European life from the Aboriginal point > of > > > view > > > > > was that the vilence > > > > > shifted from internal to external and they > > > really > > > > > weren't any better off for > > > > > the European invasion. > > > > > > > > > > William Robb > > > > > > > > > > > > > While slavery, copious killing, rape and > virtually > > > > every other form of barbarism was prevelant > among > > > the > > > > tribes of North America, it was still the > > > intrusion of > > > > Europeans which caused their near total > > > extinction. To > > > > suggest that they themselves were at times > brutual > > > > toward one another is no defense for their > > > wholesale > > > > slaughter at the hands of whites. > > > > > > > > -Brendan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any questions? Get answers on any topic at > > > www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > > > > PDML@pdml.net > > > > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > > > > > > > > > -- > > > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > > > PDML@pdml.net > > > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > > > > > > > > > __ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > -- > > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > > PDML@pdml.net > > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Then it would have been enough to make some noise to avoid the arrest, wouldn´t it? Anyway, gas is silent and the Russians used it recently in the theater hostage affair. Remember? DagT Den 10. jan. 2007 kl. 23.25 skrev P. J. Alling: > Nothing really, no I take that back. The secret police prefer to work > in silence, grenades are so publicly noisy, and hard to ignore. > > DagT wrote: >> Great idea! What would stop them from throwing in a hand grenade >> instead, or some gas? Sure, the camps would have been emptier. >> >> DagT >> >> Den 10. jan. 2007 kl. 21.48 skrev Bob Sullivan: >> >> >>> I've heard that Boris's Russian countryman, Alexander Solzenitzen, >>> thought the gulags would have been a lot emptier in their day if the >>> secret police were uncertain which of their middle of the night >>> raids >>> would have been met with a loaded gun. >>> Regards, Bob S. >>> >>> On 1/10/07, Tom C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> >>>> Well my point (even though I'm not anti-gun) is that it's better >>>> for no one >>>> to be armed than anybody to be armed. That's what logic dictates >>>> to me. >>>> >>>> Rather than fighting violence with violence, find a way to stop the >>>> violence. That's also logical. >>>> >>>> Tom C. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> From: "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>>>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>>>> Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence >>>>> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 13:34:22 -0500 >>>>> >>>>> There is a matter of proportion however nuclear weapons are >>>>> more the >>>>> province of governments. A single person with a gun is unlikely >>>>> to kill >>>>> a lot of people before they're stopped, (by my definition of a lot >>>>> anyway). A government with an army and a lot of guns, or a single >>>>> nuclear weapon can kill a whole lot of people. For that reason >>>>> alone I >>>>> believe logic dictates tis better for individuals to be armed and >>>>> governments to be disarmed. >>>>> >>>>> Tom C wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Guns kill just like nuclear weapons kill. In fact guns have >>>>>> killed more >>>>>> people than nuclear weapons... so far. >>>>>> >>>>>> In retrospect, *probably* both inventions were a bad idea. They >>>>>> have >>>>>> >>>>> both >>>>> >>>>>> led to untold injury, death, and suffering. Their purpose is >>>>>> largely, >>>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>>> kill, unlike other inventions which may endanger life. >>>>>> >>>>>> Am I anti-gun? No. Just making a point. Sure this is >>>>>> simplistic, but >>>>>> >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>> truth often is. >>>>>> >>>>>> Tom C. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> From: "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>>>>>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>>>>>> Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence >>>>>>> Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 22:35:12 -0500 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sorry, I must disagree. An armed victim is more likely to >>>>>>> defend >>>>>>> herself than a disarmed victim. To paraphrase a member of the >>>>>>> English >>>>>>> House of Lords in the losing battle against the handgun ban >>>>>>> in GB. >>>>>>> 'Firearms are used to defend the weak against the strong. To >>>>>>> restrict >>>>>>> their use by citizens is to deny them the right to self defense. >>>>>>> Governments may have the power to do that, but should not >>>>&g
Re: PESO - American Fence
DagT, I don't know. Maybe it's a fictional comment attributed to a prize winning author who was dragged off to the gulags. Or maybe it's his personal supposition after having been there and had it done to him. Regards, Bob S. On 1/10/07, DagT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Great idea! What would stop them from throwing in a hand grenade > instead, or some gas? Sure, the camps would have been emptier. > > DagT > > Den 10. jan. 2007 kl. 21.48 skrev Bob Sullivan: > > > I've heard that Boris's Russian countryman, Alexander Solzenitzen, > > thought the gulags would have been a lot emptier in their day if the > > secret police were uncertain which of their middle of the night raids > > would have been met with a loaded gun. > > Regards, Bob S. > > > > On 1/10/07, Tom C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Well my point (even though I'm not anti-gun) is that it's better > >> for no one > >> to be armed than anybody to be armed. That's what logic dictates > >> to me. > >> > >> Rather than fighting violence with violence, find a way to stop the > >> violence. That's also logical. > >> > >> Tom C. > >> > >> > >>> From: "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > >>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > >>> Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > >>> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 13:34:22 -0500 > >>> > >>> There is a matter of proportion however nuclear weapons are more the > >>> province of governments. A single person with a gun is unlikely > >>> to kill > >>> a lot of people before they're stopped, (by my definition of a lot > >>> anyway). A government with an army and a lot of guns, or a single > >>> nuclear weapon can kill a whole lot of people. For that reason > >>> alone I > >>> believe logic dictates tis better for individuals to be armed and > >>> governments to be disarmed. > >>> > >>> Tom C wrote: > >>>> Guns kill just like nuclear weapons kill. In fact guns have > >>>> killed more > >>>> people than nuclear weapons... so far. > >>>> > >>>> In retrospect, *probably* both inventions were a bad idea. They > >>>> have > >>> both > >>>> led to untold injury, death, and suffering. Their purpose is > >>>> largely, > >>> to > >>>> kill, unlike other inventions which may endanger life. > >>>> > >>>> Am I anti-gun? No. Just making a point. Sure this is > >>>> simplistic, but > >>> the > >>>> truth often is. > >>>> > >>>> Tom C. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> From: "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > >>>>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > >>>>> Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > >>>>> Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 22:35:12 -0500 > >>>>> > >>>>> Sorry, I must disagree. An armed victim is more likely to defend > >>>>> herself than a disarmed victim. To paraphrase a member of the > >>>>> English > >>>>> House of Lords in the losing battle against the handgun ban in GB. > >>>>> 'Firearms are used to defend the weak against the strong. To > >>>>> restrict > >>>>> their use by citizens is to deny them the right to self defense. > >>>>> Governments may have the power to do that, but should not have the > >>>>> right.' Apparently the British Government no longer believes > >>>>> in the > >>>>> Citizens right of self defense. Do you? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> William Robb wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> - Original Message - > >>>>>> From: "P. J. Alling" Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hand guns don't cause crime, if that were true once Great > >>>>>>> Britain
Re: PESO - American Fence
Nothing really, no I take that back. The secret police prefer to work in silence, grenades are so publicly noisy, and hard to ignore. DagT wrote: > Great idea! What would stop them from throwing in a hand grenade > instead, or some gas? Sure, the camps would have been emptier. > > DagT > > Den 10. jan. 2007 kl. 21.48 skrev Bob Sullivan: > > >> I've heard that Boris's Russian countryman, Alexander Solzenitzen, >> thought the gulags would have been a lot emptier in their day if the >> secret police were uncertain which of their middle of the night raids >> would have been met with a loaded gun. >> Regards, Bob S. >> >> On 1/10/07, Tom C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> Well my point (even though I'm not anti-gun) is that it's better >>> for no one >>> to be armed than anybody to be armed. That's what logic dictates >>> to me. >>> >>> Rather than fighting violence with violence, find a way to stop the >>> violence. That's also logical. >>> >>> Tom C. >>> >>> >>> >>>> From: "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>>> Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence >>>> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 13:34:22 -0500 >>>> >>>> There is a matter of proportion however nuclear weapons are more the >>>> province of governments. A single person with a gun is unlikely >>>> to kill >>>> a lot of people before they're stopped, (by my definition of a lot >>>> anyway). A government with an army and a lot of guns, or a single >>>> nuclear weapon can kill a whole lot of people. For that reason >>>> alone I >>>> believe logic dictates tis better for individuals to be armed and >>>> governments to be disarmed. >>>> >>>> Tom C wrote: >>>> >>>>> Guns kill just like nuclear weapons kill. In fact guns have >>>>> killed more >>>>> people than nuclear weapons... so far. >>>>> >>>>> In retrospect, *probably* both inventions were a bad idea. They >>>>> have >>>>> >>>> both >>>> >>>>> led to untold injury, death, and suffering. Their purpose is >>>>> largely, >>>>> >>>> to >>>> >>>>> kill, unlike other inventions which may endanger life. >>>>> >>>>> Am I anti-gun? No. Just making a point. Sure this is >>>>> simplistic, but >>>>> >>>> the >>>> >>>>> truth often is. >>>>> >>>>> Tom C. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> From: "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>>>>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>>>>> Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence >>>>>> Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 22:35:12 -0500 >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry, I must disagree. An armed victim is more likely to defend >>>>>> herself than a disarmed victim. To paraphrase a member of the >>>>>> English >>>>>> House of Lords in the losing battle against the handgun ban in GB. >>>>>> 'Firearms are used to defend the weak against the strong. To >>>>>> restrict >>>>>> their use by citizens is to deny them the right to self defense. >>>>>> Governments may have the power to do that, but should not have the >>>>>> right.' Apparently the British Government no longer believes >>>>>> in the >>>>>> Citizens right of self defense. Do you? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> William Robb wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> - Original Message - >>>>>>> From: "P. J. Alling" Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>
Re: PESO - American Fence
Den 10. jan. 2007 kl. 15.54 skrev Adam Maas: > David Savage wrote: >> On 1/10/07, William Robb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> Interestingly, the Americans seem to be flocking to Canadian >>> pharmacies to >>> take advantage of our much lower drug costs. >> >> Does the Canadian government subsidise drug's like they do in Oz? >> >> Cheers, >> >> Dave >> > > Yes, to an extent. More a case of regulated pricing. > > -Adam I think what happens is that most countries, but not the US, allow other companies to make patented drugs if the patent owner rises the price too much. DagT -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
We have more guns per 1000 persons than you but you have more people killed by guns per 1000 persons. OK, I assumed that people use their guns against people because of fear. If that is not correct, then why do they kill? DagT Den 10. jan. 2007 kl. 22.26 skrev P. J. Alling: > HUH? > > DagT wrote: >> That may be, but a larger percentage use it against other people. >> >> DagT >> >> Den 10. jan. 2007 kl. 17.46 skrev P. J. Alling: >> >> >>> There are very few people in the US who feel the need to use them >>> either. >>> >>> DagT wrote: >>> > Fra: Brendan MacRae <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > --- David Savage <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> Of course guns don't cause crime, criminals do. >> >> Just like guns don't kill people. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Dave >> >> >> > Note to Tom: here I go again... > > Guns don't kill people; bullets do. > > > Guns don't kill people, frightened people with guns do. We have a lot of guns here, I think we had more per person than the US in some survey, but people usually don't feel the need to use them. DagT >> >> >> > > > -- > -- > > The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. > -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net DagT -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: PESO - American Fence
> a place so isolated that it would take the police hours to > get there (such places surely exist in Canada, and in the US as well), ...in London, too! Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Great idea! What would stop them from throwing in a hand grenade instead, or some gas? Sure, the camps would have been emptier. DagT Den 10. jan. 2007 kl. 21.48 skrev Bob Sullivan: > I've heard that Boris's Russian countryman, Alexander Solzenitzen, > thought the gulags would have been a lot emptier in their day if the > secret police were uncertain which of their middle of the night raids > would have been met with a loaded gun. > Regards, Bob S. > > On 1/10/07, Tom C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Well my point (even though I'm not anti-gun) is that it's better >> for no one >> to be armed than anybody to be armed. That's what logic dictates >> to me. >> >> Rather than fighting violence with violence, find a way to stop the >> violence. That's also logical. >> >> Tom C. >> >> >>> From: "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>> Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence >>> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 13:34:22 -0500 >>> >>> There is a matter of proportion however nuclear weapons are more the >>> province of governments. A single person with a gun is unlikely >>> to kill >>> a lot of people before they're stopped, (by my definition of a lot >>> anyway). A government with an army and a lot of guns, or a single >>> nuclear weapon can kill a whole lot of people. For that reason >>> alone I >>> believe logic dictates tis better for individuals to be armed and >>> governments to be disarmed. >>> >>> Tom C wrote: >>>> Guns kill just like nuclear weapons kill. In fact guns have >>>> killed more >>>> people than nuclear weapons... so far. >>>> >>>> In retrospect, *probably* both inventions were a bad idea. They >>>> have >>> both >>>> led to untold injury, death, and suffering. Their purpose is >>>> largely, >>> to >>>> kill, unlike other inventions which may endanger life. >>>> >>>> Am I anti-gun? No. Just making a point. Sure this is >>>> simplistic, but >>> the >>>> truth often is. >>>> >>>> Tom C. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> From: "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>>>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>>>> Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence >>>>> Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 22:35:12 -0500 >>>>> >>>>> Sorry, I must disagree. An armed victim is more likely to defend >>>>> herself than a disarmed victim. To paraphrase a member of the >>>>> English >>>>> House of Lords in the losing battle against the handgun ban in GB. >>>>> 'Firearms are used to defend the weak against the strong. To >>>>> restrict >>>>> their use by citizens is to deny them the right to self defense. >>>>> Governments may have the power to do that, but should not have the >>>>> right.' Apparently the British Government no longer believes >>>>> in the >>>>> Citizens right of self defense. Do you? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> William Robb wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> - Original Message - >>>>>> From: "P. J. Alling" Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hand guns don't cause crime, if that were true once Great >>>>>>> Britain >>>>>>> >>>>> banned >>>>> >>>>>>> all hand guns, (and made shotgun ownership much more difficult), >>>>>>> >>>>> violent >>>>> >>>>>>> crime would have been eliminated, in fact it increased, (violent >>> crime >>>>>>> rates in England are now higher than in the US). I doubt that >>>>>>> >>>>> smuggling >>>>> >>>>>>> firearms is the cause of violent crime in Canada, it's a >>>>>>> symptom of >>>>>>> something else. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Straw man argument, Peter. >>>>>> Gun crimes are more likely to end up with the victim being more >>>>>> >>>>> seriously >>>>> >>>>>> hurt or dead than other types of weapons crimes, and can be >>>>>> used at >>>>>> >>>>> range >>>>> >>>>>> where the victim has less chance of self defence. >>>>>> >>>>>> William Robb >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. >>>>>-- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>>>> PDML@pdml.net >>>>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> -- >>> >>> The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. >>> -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael >>> >>> >>> -- >>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>> PDML@pdml.net >>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> >> >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net DagT -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: PESO - American Fence
Could have been with a long range rifle fired from the USA! :o) -- Bob > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Shel Belinkoff > Sent: 10 January 2007 13:51 > To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > > Agreed - when I was last in Canada there was a news story on the radio > about a police officer having been shot. Maybe it was in > Toronto, but I > don't really recall. > > Shel > > > > > [Original Message] > > From: Christian > > > Gun or rifle, whatever > > it's called, they exist in > > Canada contrary to frank's statement. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
The device in question isn't a nuclear bomb. It's a tactical weapon that develops only a tiny fraction of the power unleashed by the bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima. Still, I would prefer that this type of weapon is never used. And I think we can assume that it never will be used unless it becomes absolutely necessary. However, if Iran and its allies continue to insist that Israel has no right to exist, Israel may well consider it necessary to eliminate Iran's nuclear capability. -- Original message -- From: "K.Takeshita" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > On 1/10/07 4:06 PM, "Markus Maurer", <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > In lthe Monday New Zurich newspaper I have read that a nation (which name I > > will not mention here for good reason) has concrete plans to attack 3 atom > > fabric locations in the Iran with nuclear bombs. > > Anyone who even have a passing thought of using nuke bomb should visit a > museum in Hiroshima first, and they will come home with a firm conviction > that it should never be used against any human being (or anything with > life). > It's a devil's gift and the only thing which might be able to wipe out > ourselves in minutes from the face of earth. > It's really terrible > The fact it's in Hiroshima is really inconsequential. It is a human > tragedy. > Whoever is contemplating it, don't do it! > > Ken > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
That's what he thought. But so far in human history the invention of weapons and arming has only resulted in addtional death and destruction. In any small case one can make a point for obtaining and using weapons, but when one looks at the big picture... More likely than not though, it would have only resulted in more death on both sides. Tom C. >From: "Bob Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" >Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence >Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 14:48:24 -0600 > >I've heard that Boris's Russian countryman, Alexander Solzenitzen, >thought the gulags would have been a lot emptier in their day if the >secret police were uncertain which of their middle of the night raids >would have been met with a loaded gun. >Regards, Bob S. > >On 1/10/07, Tom C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Well my point (even though I'm not anti-gun) is that it's better for no >one > > to be armed than anybody to be armed. That's what logic dictates to me. > > > > Rather than fighting violence with violence, find a way to stop the > > violence. That's also logical. > > > > Tom C. > > > > > > >From: "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > > >To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > > >Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > > >Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 13:34:22 -0500 > > > > > >There is a matter of proportion however nuclear weapons are more the > > >province of governments. A single person with a gun is unlikely to >kill > > >a lot of people before they're stopped, (by my definition of a lot > > >anyway). A government with an army and a lot of guns, or a single > > >nuclear weapon can kill a whole lot of people. For that reason alone I > > >believe logic dictates tis better for individuals to be armed and > > >governments to be disarmed. > > > > > >Tom C wrote: > > > > Guns kill just like nuclear weapons kill. In fact guns have killed >more > > > > people than nuclear weapons... so far. > > > > > > > > In retrospect, *probably* both inventions were a bad idea. They >have > > >both > > > > led to untold injury, death, and suffering. Their purpose is >largely, > > >to > > > > kill, unlike other inventions which may endanger life. > > > > > > > > Am I anti-gun? No. Just making a point. Sure this is simplistic, >but > > >the > > > > truth often is. > > > > > > > > Tom C. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> From: "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > > > >> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > > > >> Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > > > >> Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 22:35:12 -0500 > > > >> > > > >> Sorry, I must disagree. An armed victim is more likely to defend > > > >> herself than a disarmed victim. To paraphrase a member of the >English > > > >> House of Lords in the losing battle against the handgun ban in GB. > > > >> 'Firearms are used to defend the weak against the strong. To >restrict > > > >> their use by citizens is to deny them the right to self defense. > > > >> Governments may have the power to do that, but should not have the > > > >> right.' Apparently the British Government no longer believes in >the > > > >> Citizens right of self defense. Do you? > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> William Robb wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> - Original Message - > > > >>> From: "P. J. Alling" Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> Hand guns don't cause crime, if that were true once Great Britain > > > >>>> > > > >> banned > > > >> > > > >>>> all hand guns, (and made shotgun ownership much more difficult), > > > >>>> > > > >> violent > > > >> > > > >>>> crime would have been eliminated, in fact it increased, (violen
Re: PESO - American Fence
That's just silly... Gonz wrote: > A book I'm reading right now indicates that the evidence points to these > first settlers to have been done in by.drum roll please "Global > Warming". Yup, the melting of the last Ice Age drove all the > elephant-like creatures and huge jumbo bison further north and > eventually to extinction. The native humans could not adapt, and they > died off. Apparently they had no mongoloid features, so they were not > the same race of people as the later settlers. > > rg > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> I think that describes many "Native American's" quite well There is >> some evidence that those who emigrated from Asia during the last ice age >> weren't the first, but it doesn't fit the stereotype so this evidence is >> sometimes suppressed. The current natives may have actually displaced >> earlier residents of this continent, thus depriving them of ultimate >> victim hood. Personally I find victim hood to be a crock, you live >> with the world you're given, but some people make it their carriers. >> >> Brendan MacRae wrote: >> >> >>> Well, yes, good point. >>> >>> But I was referring to the point of view of Nativists >>> who claim to be "true Americans," vis-a-vis their >>> fellow immigrants. The idea that it's "those others" >>> that endager "us" rather than the point of view of >>> true Native Americans (to whom all whites were a >>> threat) which is what you describe. Nativism is, >>> paridoxically, a construct that doesn't apply to them >>> since it describes only those who tout a dubious claim >>> of originality. >>> >>> -Brendan >>> >>> --- Shel Belinkoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> I think it has been. Once the Europeans came here, Eden became endangered ... Shel > [Original Message] > From: Brendan MacRae > > The idea that America is an "endangered > Eden." It isn't, of course. It never has been. > > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >>> __ >>> Do You Yahoo!? >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>> http://mail.yahoo.com >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: PESO - American Fence
LOL. The number of humans and bears killed by firearms would surely shrink. Tom C. >From: "Walter Hamler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >To: >Subject: PESO - American Fence >Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 16:22:36 -0500 > >I personally subscribe to the growing philosophy that we need to arm Bears >rather than bear arms!! That would keep the hunters away and allow the >Bears >to live and let live! :-) > >Walt > > >-- >PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >PDML@pdml.net >http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
I would expect that every nuclear power with the ability to project power that far has such concrete plans, simply as an exercise in precaution. I don't expect them to be used. -Adam Markus Maurer wrote: > In lthe Monday New Zurich newspaper I have read that a nation (which name I > will not mention here for good reason) has concrete plans to attack 3 atom > fabric locations in the Iran with nuclear bombs. > > *Some* people can't wait for WW III it seems :-( > Markus > > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > P. J. Alling > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 7:34 PM > To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > > > There is a matter of proportion however nuclear weapons are more the > province of governments. A single person with a gun is unlikely to kill > a lot of people before they're stopped, (by my definition of a lot > anyway). A government with an army and a lot of guns, or a single > nuclear weapon can kill a whole lot of people. For that reason alone I > believe logic dictates tis better for individuals to be armed and > governments to be disarmed. > > Tom C wrote: >> Guns kill just like nuclear weapons kill. In fact guns have killed more >> people than nuclear weapons... so far. >> >> In retrospect, *probably* both inventions were a bad idea. They have both >> led to untold injury, death, and suffering. Their purpose is largely, to >> kill, unlike other inventions which may endanger life. >> >> Am I anti-gun? No. Just making a point. Sure this is simplistic, but > the >> truth often is. >> >> Tom C. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> From: "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>> Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence >>> Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 22:35:12 -0500 >>> >>> Sorry, I must disagree. An armed victim is more likely to defend >>> herself than a disarmed victim. To paraphrase a member of the English >>> House of Lords in the losing battle against the handgun ban in GB. >>> 'Firearms are used to defend the weak against the strong. To restrict >>> their use by citizens is to deny them the right to self defense. >>> Governments may have the power to do that, but should not have the >>> right.' Apparently the British Government no longer believes in the >>> Citizens right of self defense. Do you? >>> >>> >>> William Robb wrote: >>> >>>> - Original Message - >>>> From: "P. J. Alling" Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hand guns don't cause crime, if that were true once Great Britain >>>>> >>> banned >>> >>>>> all hand guns, (and made shotgun ownership much more difficult), >>>>> >>> violent >>> >>>>> crime would have been eliminated, in fact it increased, (violent crime >>>>> rates in England are now higher than in the US). I doubt that >>>>> >>> smuggling >>> >>>>> firearms is the cause of violent crime in Canada, it's a symptom of >>>>> something else. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Straw man argument, Peter. >>>> Gun crimes are more likely to end up with the victim being more >>>> >>> seriously >>> >>>> hurt or dead than other types of weapons crimes, and can be used at >>>> >>> range >>> >>>> where the victim has less chance of self defence. >>>> >>>> William Robb >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> -- >>> >>> The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. >>> -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael >>> >>> >>> -- >>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>> PDML@pdml.net >>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >>> >> >> >> > > > -- > -- > > The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. > -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Hell, I'm surprised they didn't issue you one. Markus Maurer wrote: > I begged for a Pershing II when I served the Swiss army but they did not > believe me that I just wanted to protect myself. > I still hate them. > Markus > > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > frank theriault > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 4:31 PM > To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > > > On 1/9/07, Christian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> I believe knarf wrote "no guns." Long guns IS guns and they kill just >> as good, if not better than, hand guns. I loved "Bowling for >> Columbine." (flame retardant suit: ON). :-) >> > > As I said, I was joking (had no idea it would spark this debate. > > In Canada, handguns are so heavily restricted as to be virtually illegal. > > Yes, long guns are guns, but they don't become involved in inner city > murders (which is where most of the gun deaths occur in Canada). It's > hard to walk the streets inconspicuously with a rifle or shotgun in > hand. > > So, with large rural areas, long guns are rather ubiquitous here, but > they don't become involved in crime very often. > > cheers, > frank > > -- > "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -Henri Cartier-Bresson > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > > > -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
A book I'm reading right now indicates that the evidence points to these first settlers to have been done in by.drum roll please "Global Warming". Yup, the melting of the last Ice Age drove all the elephant-like creatures and huge jumbo bison further north and eventually to extinction. The native humans could not adapt, and they died off. Apparently they had no mongoloid features, so they were not the same race of people as the later settlers. rg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I think that describes many "Native American's" quite well There is > some evidence that those who emigrated from Asia during the last ice age > weren't the first, but it doesn't fit the stereotype so this evidence is > sometimes suppressed. The current natives may have actually displaced > earlier residents of this continent, thus depriving them of ultimate > victim hood. Personally I find victim hood to be a crock, you live > with the world you're given, but some people make it their carriers. > > Brendan MacRae wrote: > >>Well, yes, good point. >> >>But I was referring to the point of view of Nativists >>who claim to be "true Americans," vis-a-vis their >>fellow immigrants. The idea that it's "those others" >>that endager "us" rather than the point of view of >>true Native Americans (to whom all whites were a >>threat) which is what you describe. Nativism is, >>paridoxically, a construct that doesn't apply to them >>since it describes only those who tout a dubious claim >>of originality. >> >>-Brendan >> >>--- Shel Belinkoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >> >>>I think it has been. Once the Europeans came here, >>>Eden became endangered >>>... >>> >>>Shel >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> [Original Message] From: Brendan MacRae The idea that America is an "endangered Eden." It isn't, of course. It never has been. >>> >>>-- >>>PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>>PDML@pdml.net >>>http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >>> >>> >> >> >>__ >>Do You Yahoo!? >>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> > > > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
On 1/10/07 4:06 PM, "Markus Maurer", <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In lthe Monday New Zurich newspaper I have read that a nation (which name I > will not mention here for good reason) has concrete plans to attack 3 atom > fabric locations in the Iran with nuclear bombs. Anyone who even have a passing thought of using nuke bomb should visit a museum in Hiroshima first, and they will come home with a firm conviction that it should never be used against any human being (or anything with life). It's a devil's gift and the only thing which might be able to wipe out ourselves in minutes from the face of earth. It's really terrible The fact it's in Hiroshima is really inconsequential. It is a human tragedy. Whoever is contemplating it, don't do it! Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
HUH? DagT wrote: > That may be, but a larger percentage use it against other people. > > DagT > > Den 10. jan. 2007 kl. 17.46 skrev P. J. Alling: > > >> There are very few people in the US who feel the need to use them >> either. >> >> DagT wrote: >> Fra: Brendan MacRae <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- David Savage <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Of course guns don't cause crime, criminals do. > > Just like guns don't kill people. > > Cheers, > > Dave > > > Note to Tom: here I go again... Guns don't kill people; bullets do. >>> Guns don't kill people, frightened people with guns do. >>> >>> We have a lot of guns here, I think we had more per person than >>> the US in some survey, but people usually don't feel the need to >>> use them. >>> >>> DagT >>> >>> > > > -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: PESO - American Fence
This report, which was made public all over the world several days ago, was denied by the subject country (not the US). The report said that the subject country was planning to attack nuclear-weapons-production sites with tactical nuclear weapons. As nujclear weapons go, tactical nukes are relatively low-powered devices, but they are capable of destroying well-fortified underground sites. Again, the alleged planner of the attacks has denied that any such strategy exists. That of course doesn't guarantee anything. Paul -- Original message -- From: "Markus Maurer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > In lthe Monday New Zurich newspaper I have read that a nation (which name I > will not mention here for good reason) has concrete plans to attack 3 atom > fabric locations in the Iran with nuclear bombs. > > *Some* people can't wait for WW III it seems :-( > Markus > > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > P. J. Alling > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 7:34 PM > To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > > > There is a matter of proportion however nuclear weapons are more the > province of governments. A single person with a gun is unlikely to kill > a lot of people before they're stopped, (by my definition of a lot > anyway). A government with an army and a lot of guns, or a single > nuclear weapon can kill a whole lot of people. For that reason alone I > believe logic dictates tis better for individuals to be armed and > governments to be disarmed. > > Tom C wrote: > > Guns kill just like nuclear weapons kill. In fact guns have killed more > > people than nuclear weapons... so far. > > > > In retrospect, *probably* both inventions were a bad idea. They have both > > led to untold injury, death, and suffering. Their purpose is largely, to > > kill, unlike other inventions which may endanger life. > > > > Am I anti-gun? No. Just making a point. Sure this is simplistic, but > the > > truth often is. > > > > Tom C. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> From: "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > >> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > >> Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > >> Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 22:35:12 -0500 > >> > >> Sorry, I must disagree. An armed victim is more likely to defend > >> herself than a disarmed victim. To paraphrase a member of the English > >> House of Lords in the losing battle against the handgun ban in GB. > >> 'Firearms are used to defend the weak against the strong. To restrict > >> their use by citizens is to deny them the right to self defense. > >> Governments may have the power to do that, but should not have the > >> right.' Apparently the British Government no longer believes in the > >> Citizens right of self defense. Do you? > >> > >> > >> William Robb wrote: > >> > >>> - Original Message - > >>> From: "P. J. Alling" Subject: Re: PESO - American Fence > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> Hand guns don't cause crime, if that were true once Great Britain > >>>> > >> banned > >> > >>>> all hand guns, (and made shotgun ownership much more difficult), > >>>> > >> violent > >> > >>>> crime would have been eliminated, in fact it increased, (violent crime > >>>> rates in England are now higher than in the US). I doubt that > >>>> > >> smuggling > >> > >>>> firearms is the cause of violent crime in Canada, it's a symptom of > >>>> something else. > >>>> > >>>> > >>> Straw man argument, Peter. > >>> Gun crimes are more likely to end up with the victim being more > >>> > >> seriously > >> > >>> hurt or dead than other types of weapons crimes, and can be used at > >>> > >> range > >> > >>> where the victim has less chance of self defence. > >>> > >>> William Robb > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> -- > >> -- > >> > >> The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. > >>-- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael > >> > >> > >> -- > >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > >> PDML@pdml.net > >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > >> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > -- > > The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. > -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - American Fence
Actually it was a little of both. But even after the pacification of the natives the slaughter continued to supply the delicacy of Buffalo tongue, and because the Bison were a nuisance delaying trains by taking shelter from storms in railroad cuts which kept trains from using them, and damaging locomotives that failed to stop in time. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > frank theriault wrote: > >> In addition, the slaughter, almost to extinction, of the American >> Bison was a conscientious attempt to eliminate something that, both >> physically and spiritually, was necessary to Native survival in the >> West. >> >> > The extinction of the bison was largely the result of an attempt to feed the > men who built the transcontinental railroad. > > -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
