Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Stig S. Bakken]

Did php-dev get a collective male version of PMS all of a sudden? :-)

For the record, I agree that PEAR DB is a bit on the heavy side today. 
A "lean and mean" redesign is planned for when aggregation and
overloading stabilizes.  And maybe even rewriting some parts in C. 
Ideally using PEAR DB should not be significantly slower than using
native functions.  Or at least that's my long-term goal.

 - Stig

On Thu, 2002-04-18 at 09:06, Ken Egervari wrote:
> I also recall that many of my first arguments were not saying that it sucks.
> I think a majority of the problem is that everyone that sticks up for pear
> sees anything that challenges where its going, its goals and what it current
> has as an extremely large accusation and therefore it sucks.  The reason why
> many of my statements now have been somewhat sour and negative are to
> reflect the arguments that were already thrown my way in the beginning where
> I thought my statements were from what everyone is making them out to be.
> So don't be surprised if I seem to be this way and that others have left as
> well.  Maybe it's not the accusers that have the problem.  Just something to
> think about.
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Dave Mertens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Ken Egervari" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform
> 
> 
> > > > > > > I for one have been using Java and .Net for all my applications
> > > now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Which is it, "java most of the time", or "java and .net
> > > > > > for all my applications now".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Big difference.
> > > > > Is there alot of this sort of bickering on this mailing list, or is
> this
> > > > > out of the norm?
> > > >
> > > > He, you barch in, telling the PEAR community the PEAR sucks big time,
> and
> > > > you find it peculiar that some people are a bit picky about you??
> > > Look, with that attitude, no wonder why it doesn't any better.
> > He, what would you to if i told you that the project you've worked on for
> more than a year totaly sucks?!
> >
> > Every day there are commit thats make pear better and better. But don't
> forget this is a company project where there is a management that is telling
> what there have to be done.
> > I know that sometimes it a problem. But people that ONLY saying pear sucks
> aren't helping.
> >
> > Write some patches, and if you think PEAR DB is to heavy. Write a light
> version of it. Nobody is keeping you from make pear better. And if you have
> ideas how things might be better, write them with a friendly tone.
> > Because barching in isn't helping anyone.
> >
> > So stop insulting people and do something about the points that you're
> trying to make. We want no words, we want deeds!
> >
> > Dave Mertens
> >
> 
> 
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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Gabriel Ricard]

I wholeheartedly agree with Dan on this issue. This bickering really 
doesn't help anybody make PHP any better. From what I can gather this 
mailing list is oriented towards developing a certain tool, PHP. While 
Java and .Net discussions are relative in terms of their respective PHP 
extensions, and possibly in examining areas where PHP can be improved, 
arguing over using Java and/or .Net and how much one uses them, and for 
that matter, what they use them for, whether or not the use them with 
their toaster or if they use them with a cat or in a hat, doesn't matter 
at all.

This thread needs to become productive or die, or perhaps everyone 
should just ignore it?

Just my opinion...

- Gabriel

Ken Egervari wrote:
> You are completely avoiding the issue here.  Getting the job done and
> getting it done fast with the right tools are also 2 big differences.
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Dan Hardiker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 12:22 PM
> Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform
> 
> 
> 
>>Is there alot of this sort of bickering on this mailing list, or is this
>>out of the norm?
>>
>>Ken, Mike - does it *really* matter who uses what technology to get the
> 
> job
> 
>>done? Isn't it much more important what the resulting code is capable of
>>doing and in what manner?
>>
>>--
>>Dan Hardiker [[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>>ADAM Software & Systems Engineer
>>First Creative Ltd
>>
>>
>>
>>>Ken Egervari writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Actually, I use java most of the time.  Who's making the assumptions?
>>>
>>>I assume nothing.
>>>You posted earlier:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>I for one have been using Java and .Net for all my applications now.
>>>>
>>>Which is it, "java most of the time", or "java and .net
>>>for all my applications now".
>>>
>>>Big difference.
>>>
>>>Mike Robinson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>PHP Development Mailing List <http://www.php.net/>
>>To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 



-- 
Gabriel Ricard
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Ken Egervari]

You are completely avoiding the issue here.  Getting the job done and
getting it done fast with the right tools are also 2 big differences.

- Original Message -
From: "Dan Hardiker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 12:22 PM
Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform


> Is there alot of this sort of bickering on this mailing list, or is this
> out of the norm?
>
> Ken, Mike - does it *really* matter who uses what technology to get the
job
> done? Isn't it much more important what the resulting code is capable of
> doing and in what manner?
>
> --
> Dan Hardiker [[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> ADAM Software & Systems Engineer
> First Creative Ltd
>
>
> > Ken Egervari writes:
> >
> >> Actually, I use java most of the time.  Who's making the assumptions?
> >
> > I assume nothing.
> > You posted earlier:
> >
> >> > I for one have been using Java and .Net for all my applications now.
> >
> > Which is it, "java most of the time", or "java and .net
> > for all my applications now".
> >
> > Big difference.
> >
> > Mike Robinson
>
>
>
>
> --
> PHP Development Mailing List <http://www.php.net/>
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>


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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Dave Mertens]

> > > > > I for one have been using Java and .Net for all my applications
> now.
> > > >
> > > > Which is it, "java most of the time", or "java and .net
> > > > for all my applications now".
> > > >
> > > > Big difference.
> > > Is there alot of this sort of bickering on this mailing list, or is this
> > > out of the norm?
> >
> > He, you barch in, telling the PEAR community the PEAR sucks big time, and
> > you find it peculiar that some people are a bit picky about you??
> Look, with that attitude, no wonder why it doesn't any better.
He, what would you to if i told you that the project you've worked on for more than a 
year totaly sucks?!

Every day there are commit thats make pear better and better. But don't forget this is 
a company project where there is a management that is telling what there have to be 
done.
I know that sometimes it a problem. But people that ONLY saying pear sucks aren't 
helping.

Write some patches, and if you think PEAR DB is to heavy. Write a light version of it. 
Nobody is keeping you from make pear better. And if you have ideas how things might be 
better, write them with a friendly tone.
Because barching in isn't helping anyone.

So stop insulting people and do something about the points that you're trying to make. 
We want no words, we want deeds!

Dave Mertens

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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Dan Hardiker]

For our systems, a windows machine (license fees, seats etc) costs in the
region of 10,000 in total. A FreeBSD machine running the same style of
software costs only 2,000 (and thats on the outer limit). What sensible
business throws away 8,000?

For your information, if your serious about delivering PHP over the web
reliably your looking at FreeBSD with Apache. If you know what your doing
you can secure it well enough.

In the past 12 months I have had 3 problems with FreeBSD where I have had
to patch it - with windows I have to update our Win2k server monthly and
even then there are times when I have to intervien within days of patching
it.

If your business is willing to throw away money then all be it - but here
in the UK at First Creative we believe in giving the money to R&D rather
than waste it on a bloated peice of software which cant handle anywhere
near the load its UNIX based counter part can.

-- 
Dan Hardiker [[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
ADAM Software & Systems Engineer
First Creative Ltd

> On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 07:19:52PM +0200, Marcus B?rger wrote:
>> And who wants to use MS in critical environments or with critical
>> Data?  Remember
>> MS fail to secure their own DNS servers or who knows what MS is
>> capable to view on your server? Before XP they did not implement a
>> full tcp/ip stack and  noone knows
>> what they are doing on the net (besides themselfs - i hope). And what
>> about  the
>> resources of Windows - you must have lots of money to be fast with MS
>> Systems.
> Aahh, the money. OK, what costs a server?? Let's say a server costs
> 7500. 2 X 2 loadbalanced servers (1 website, 1 database). That's about
> $30.000. My boss is asking about $100 per developer a hour!  A project
> team within our company counts 4 developers, 1 development manager and
> 1 contact for the customer. 30.000/6 = $5.000. So if every person on
> the projecs makes 50 hours the 4 servers are paid! That's 5 and a half
> day programming.
>
> Most projects take months before the total projects is deployed with
> all the stages. Really, the resources needed Windows don't cost that
> much for companies, not in comparisment with development costs.
>
> Any idea what a requirement study (needed for every project), a
> functional and a technical design costs? And than people even haven't
> started programming!
>
> Both Windows as Linux has some disadvantages. I won't deny that. Do you
> every read security-focus?? Linux has just as much security bugs as
> windows has! I work with both platforms, both have their charms.
>
> And in critical enviroments even linux isn't used. They have their own
> unix os. I even doubt that a space shuttle is running PHP.. (They also
> don't run Windows ASP either).
>
>
>> As said before by Kristian Koehntopp there is a large amount of LAMP
>> installations.
>> Because many people do not use XML/SOAP why should they? Not everyone
>> has to sell something on his site(AND some XML parts are in
>> development  even tody).
> So, more than 90% is running MSIE. Does that mean i don't have to care
> about Netscape? LAMP installation are populair with ISP and hosting
> providers. Because LAMP doesn't costs much.
>
> Just in my case - We only have MS database servers at our company. Why,
> because Learning all the ins and outs of postgresql or MySQL takes a
> lot of time. PHP has very good support for MS SQL Server. But MS SQL
> Server is cheaper than Oracle. So, we have only 2 database
> administrators in stead of 4 (postgresql, mysql, oracle and MS SQL).
>
>> When time comes and thinks like SRM become public maybe PHP gets the
>> capabilities
>> to run a web-application on multiple machines - then we will have the
>> need  for full SOAP
>> integration. Before that time we would only provide MS/Java folks with
>>  rapid prototyping
>> utilities...
> We now already running PHP webapplications on multiple machines. All
> application data is placed on a nfs partition which is used by all the
> machines. SOAP between you're own layers is a bit overkill.
>
> Don't get me wrong. I like PHP. But please don't say that ASP is bad.
> Because if it were so bad, why does it popularity grows. With good
> administrators windows is also stable. And if you're not installing the
> distribution updates, a linux system is just a much as exploitable as a
> Windows machine.
>
> The longest uptime allowed within our company is set to 180 days. After
> that the hardware must be inspected. And because we're running clusters
> nobody cares. With that inspection servers get also a full upgrade.
> Also all coolers are replaced.
>
> But these kind of discussions are useless. Most of those threads were
> started in the early 90's.  And beside of that, it costs your energy if
> you reply on this one ;-) Use your energy wise, make PHP better!
>
> Dave Mertens
>
> --
> PHP Development Mailing List 
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php



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RE: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Tim Thorpe]

You are neglecting the FreeBSD and OpenBSD projects.  Both of these
operating systems have proven track records of security and reliability,
both in the practical world and in the brutal world of technical
security audits (just ask CERT, NASA, and the NSA).

What relevance does my post have to the php-dev list?  NONE!  ABSOLUTELY
NOTHING!

I'm new to this list and an infrequent poster as of yet, but I still
know that this discussion belongs in an advocacy list.  This is a
mailing list for two kinds of people: PHP developers and the technically
curious.  Unless you have something to contribute in either respect, I
suggest you start a thread on slashdot.




-Original Message-
From: Dave Mertens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 4:04 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Ken Egervari; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform


On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 07:19:52PM +0200, Marcus B?rger wrote:
> And who wants to use MS in critical environments or with critical
> Data?
> Remember
> MS fail to secure their own DNS servers or who knows what MS is
capable to view
> on your server? Before XP they did not implement a full tcp/ip stack
and
> noone knows
> what they are doing on the net (besides themselfs - i hope). And what
about
> the
> resources of Windows - you must have lots of money to be fast with MS
Systems.
Aahh, the money. OK, what costs a server?? Let's say a server costs
7500. 2 X 2 loadbalanced servers (1 website, 1 database). That's about
$30.000. My boss is asking about $100 per developer a hour!
A project team within our company counts 4 developers, 1 development
manager and 1 contact for the customer. 30.000/6 = $5.000. So if every
person on the projecs makes 50 hours the 4 servers are paid! That's 5
and a half day programming.

Most projects take months before the total projects is deployed with all
the stages. Really, the resources needed Windows don't cost that much
for companies, not in comparisment with development costs.

Any idea what a requirement study (needed for every project), a
functional and a technical design costs? And than people even haven't
started programming!

Both Windows as Linux has some disadvantages. I won't deny that. Do you
every read security-focus?? Linux has just as much security bugs as
windows has! I work with both platforms, both have their charms.

And in critical enviroments even linux isn't used. They have their own
unix os. I even doubt that a space shuttle is running PHP.. (They also
don't run Windows ASP either).


> As said before by Kristian Koehntopp there is a large amount of LAMP
> installations.
> Because many people do not use XML/SOAP why should they? Not everyone
has
> to sell something on his site(AND some XML parts are in
development
> even tody).
So, more than 90% is running MSIE. Does that mean i don't have to care
about Netscape? LAMP installation are populair with ISP and hosting
providers. Because LAMP doesn't costs much.

Just in my case - We only have MS database servers at our company. Why,
because Learning all the ins and outs of postgresql or MySQL takes a lot
of time. PHP has very good support for MS SQL Server. But MS SQL Server
is cheaper than Oracle. So, we have only 2 database administrators in
stead of 4 (postgresql, mysql, oracle and MS SQL).

> When time comes and thinks like SRM become public maybe PHP gets the
> capabilities
> to run a web-application on multiple machines - then we will have the
need
> for full SOAP
> integration. Before that time we would only provide MS/Java folks with

> rapid prototyping
> utilities...
We now already running PHP webapplications on multiple machines. All
application data is placed on a nfs partition which is used by all the
machines. SOAP between you're own layers is a bit overkill.

Don't get me wrong. I like PHP. But please don't say that ASP is bad.
Because if it were so bad, why does it popularity grows. With good
administrators windows is also stable. And if you're not installing the
distribution updates, a linux system is just a much as exploitable as a
Windows machine.

The longest uptime allowed within our company is set to 180 days. After
that the hardware must be inspected. And because we're running clusters
nobody cares. With that inspection servers get also a full upgrade. Also
all coolers are replaced.

But these kind of discussions are useless. Most of those threads were
started in the early 90's.
And beside of that, it costs your energy if you reply on this one ;-)
Use your energy wise, make PHP better!

Dave Mertens

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RE: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Christian Stocker]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Joseph Tate
wrote:

>> I didn't know that compiling with just domxml gave xslt as well. are
>> you sure of this?
>> 
> --with-dom-xslt and --with-dom-exslt

But only since PHP 4.2

chregu

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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Brent R. Matzelle]

--- Dave Mertens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just in my case - We only have MS database servers at our company.
> Why, because Learning all the ins and outs of postgresql or MySQL
> takes a lot of time.
> PHP has very good support for MS SQL Server. But MS SQL Server is
> cheaper than Oracle.
> So, we have only 2 database administrators in stead of 4
> (postgresql, mysql, oracle and MS SQL).

Oh please.  MySQL and PostgreSQL?  What administration?  Any DBA
worth his salt can learn those databases in a week.  I don't need an
administrator because I literally can administrate these databases in
my sleep.  I run a cron cron job that performs backups and other
admin duties all while I'm in bed.  

Brent

__
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Dan Hardiker]

Agreed - but who are you to decide what the right tools are?

I signed up to this list expecting inteligent debates and information about
PHP, not a mass willy waving exercise by yourself (and Mike Robinson) over
who knows best.

Any developer who needs mom to tell them what to do still is on the wrong
list - or am I mistaken and this is really [EMAIL PROTECTED]?

To get the job done fast you do it the way you know best using the tools
you work with day in and day out. Who is to say there is a better way than
the way that Joe Bloggs is doing it?

Sure there may be easier ways to you, but are those ways as easy to Joe?
Sure there may be quicker ways for you, but would those ways be as quick
for Joe to traverse?

Advice is most welcome in many cultures in this world - but your not
offering advice. Your bitch slapping down any idea / concept / way of doing
things, other than the way you are doing it. Stop.

This message isn't designed to cause a metaphorical debate, nor is it to
twist the knife. With a little hope, its aim is to remove the bitching that
inside of 3 days has made me reconsider the maturity of some of the people
on this list, and also my place as a member of it.

I have already found much help in a socket based issue, and also found must
aggrovation over my inbox being filled with smarmy know-it-alls like our
friend Ken.

Would it not be more constructive just to get along, work as a team to
solve and extend PHP's core problems and value?

-- 
Dan Hardiker [[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
ADAM Software & Systems Engineer
First Creative Ltd

> You are completely avoiding the issue here.  Getting the job done and
> getting it done fast with the right tools are also 2 big differences.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Dan Hardiker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 12:22 PM
> Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform
>
>
>> Is there alot of this sort of bickering on this mailing list, or is
>> this out of the norm?
>>
>> Ken, Mike - does it *really* matter who uses what technology to get
>> the
> job
>> done? Isn't it much more important what the resulting code is capable
>> of doing and in what manner?
>>
>> --
>> Dan Hardiker [[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>> ADAM Software & Systems Engineer
>> First Creative Ltd
>>
>>
>> > Ken Egervari writes:
>> >
>> >> Actually, I use java most of the time.  Who's making the
>> >> assumptions?
>> >
>> > I assume nothing.
>> > You posted earlier:
>> >
>> >> > I for one have been using Java and .Net for all my applications
>> >> > now.
>> >
>> > Which is it, "java most of the time", or "java and .net
>> > for all my applications now".
>> >
>> > Big difference.
>> >
>> > Mike Robinson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> PHP Development Mailing List <http://www.php.net/>
>> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php




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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Ken Egervari]

Look, with that attitude, no wonder why it doesn't any better.

- Original Message -
From: "Dave Mertens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Dan Hardiker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform


> On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 04:22:00PM -, Dan Hardiker wrote:
> > > Ken Egervari writes:
> > > > > I for one have been using Java and .Net for all my applications
now.
> > >
> > > Which is it, "java most of the time", or "java and .net
> > > for all my applications now".
> > >
> > > Big difference.
> > Is there alot of this sort of bickering on this mailing list, or is this
> > out of the norm?
>
> He, you barch in, telling the PEAR community the PEAR sucks big time, and
you find it peculiar that some people are a bit picky about you??
>
> Dave Mertens
>
> --
> PHP Development Mailing List <http://www.php.net/>
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>


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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Ken Egervari]

I also recall that many of my first arguments were not saying that it sucks.
I think a majority of the problem is that everyone that sticks up for pear
sees anything that challenges where its going, its goals and what it current
has as an extremely large accusation and therefore it sucks.  The reason why
many of my statements now have been somewhat sour and negative are to
reflect the arguments that were already thrown my way in the beginning where
I thought my statements were from what everyone is making them out to be.
So don't be surprised if I seem to be this way and that others have left as
well.  Maybe it's not the accusers that have the problem.  Just something to
think about.

- Original Message -
From: "Dave Mertens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Ken Egervari" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:41 AM
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform


> > > > > > I for one have been using Java and .Net for all my applications
> > now.
> > > > >
> > > > > Which is it, "java most of the time", or "java and .net
> > > > > for all my applications now".
> > > > >
> > > > > Big difference.
> > > > Is there alot of this sort of bickering on this mailing list, or is
this
> > > > out of the norm?
> > >
> > > He, you barch in, telling the PEAR community the PEAR sucks big time,
and
> > > you find it peculiar that some people are a bit picky about you??
> > Look, with that attitude, no wonder why it doesn't any better.
> He, what would you to if i told you that the project you've worked on for
more than a year totaly sucks?!
>
> Every day there are commit thats make pear better and better. But don't
forget this is a company project where there is a management that is telling
what there have to be done.
> I know that sometimes it a problem. But people that ONLY saying pear sucks
aren't helping.
>
> Write some patches, and if you think PEAR DB is to heavy. Write a light
version of it. Nobody is keeping you from make pear better. And if you have
ideas how things might be better, write them with a friendly tone.
> Because barching in isn't helping anyone.
>
> So stop insulting people and do something about the points that you're
trying to make. We want no words, we want deeds!
>
> Dave Mertens
>


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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Dave Mertens]

On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 07:19:52PM +0200, Marcus B?rger wrote:
> And who wants to use MS in critical environments or with critical Data? 
> Remember
> MS fail to secure their own DNS servers or who knows what MS is capable to view
> on your server? Before XP they did not implement a full tcp/ip stack and 
> noone knows
> what they are doing on the net (besides themselfs - i hope). And what about 
> the
> resources of Windows - you must have lots of money to be fast with MS Systems.
Aahh, the money. OK, what costs a server?? Let's say a server costs 7500. 2 X 2 
loadbalanced servers (1 website, 1 database).
That's about $30.000. My boss is asking about $100 per developer a hour! 
A project team within our company counts 4 developers, 1 development manager and 1 
contact for the customer.
30.000/6 = $5.000. So if every person on the projecs makes 50 hours the 4 servers are 
paid! That's 5 and a half day programming.

Most projects take months before the total projects is deployed with all the stages.
Really, the resources needed Windows don't cost that much for companies, not in 
comparisment with development costs.

Any idea what a requirement study (needed for every project), a functional and a 
technical design costs? And than people even haven't started programming!

Both Windows as Linux has some disadvantages. I won't deny that. Do you every read 
security-focus?? Linux has just as much security bugs as windows has!
I work with both platforms, both have their charms. 

And in critical enviroments even linux isn't used. They have their own unix os. I even 
doubt that a space shuttle is running PHP.. (They also don't run Windows ASP either).


> As said before by Kristian Koehntopp there is a large amount of LAMP 
> installations.
> Because many people do not use XML/SOAP why should they? Not everyone has
> to sell something on his site(AND some XML parts are in development 
> even tody).
So, more than 90% is running MSIE. Does that mean i don't have to care about Netscape?
LAMP installation are populair with ISP and hosting providers. Because LAMP doesn't 
costs much.

Just in my case - We only have MS database servers at our company. Why, because 
Learning all the ins and outs of postgresql or MySQL takes a lot of time.
PHP has very good support for MS SQL Server. But MS SQL Server is cheaper than Oracle.
So, we have only 2 database administrators in stead of 4 (postgresql, mysql, oracle 
and MS SQL).

> When time comes and thinks like SRM become public maybe PHP gets the 
> capabilities
> to run a web-application on multiple machines - then we will have the need 
> for full SOAP
> integration. Before that time we would only provide MS/Java folks with 
> rapid prototyping
> utilities...
We now already running PHP webapplications on multiple machines. All application data 
is placed on a nfs partition which is used by all the machines.
SOAP between you're own layers is a bit overkill.

Don't get me wrong. I like PHP. But please don't say that ASP is bad.
Because if it were so bad, why does it popularity grows. With good administrators 
windows is also stable.
And if you're not installing the distribution updates, a linux system is just a much 
as exploitable as a Windows machine.

The longest uptime allowed within our company is set to 180 days. After that the 
hardware must be inspected. And because we're running clusters nobody cares.
With that inspection servers get also a full upgrade. Also all coolers are replaced. 

But these kind of discussions are useless. Most of those threads were started in the 
early 90's. 
And beside of that, it costs your energy if you reply on this one ;-) Use your energy 
wise, make PHP better!

Dave Mertens

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RE: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Joseph Tate]

> I didn't know that compiling with just domxml gave xslt as well. 
> are you sure of this?
> 
--with-dom-xslt and --with-dom-exslt

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RE: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Dietrich Ayala]

> stick with the domxml extension, which basically
> wraps the libxml2 and libxslt libraries and right now offers you DOM,
> XPath, XPointer and XSLT. SAX and DTD validation are available in the
> wrapped libraries but currently are not exposed to PHP.

I have no complaints with the work of Daniel Veillard, and I didn't say that MSXML was 
better. I said there is "power and
"flexibility" in the fact that MSXML libs interoperate (you explained it better than I 
;).

My point is this: if there were a unified interface for accessing libxml & libxslt, 
and it was compiled by default, i think that it
would attract developers and stregthen PHP's image as a viable alternative to other 
web development platforms. And I love developing
with PHP and XML, so I would be quite happy :)

I didn't know that compiling with just domxml gave xslt as well. are you sure of this?

> You obviously cannot make the language responsible for the decisions of
> hosting provider system administrators.

Obviously not, and I wouldn't try. It's just not a viable solution to say "look at all 
the extensions we have", when they may as
well not even exist to many PHP users.

dietrich


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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Stefan Livieratos]

Hi,

Dietrich Ayala wrote:
> here's some reasons why XML in PHP does not compare favorably to XML in the MS 
>platform:
> 
> 1. None of the XML related extensions work together. SAX, XSLT, DOM, XML Schema are 
>part of the same core in MSXML. There is
> incredible power and flexibility in that alone.
Microsoft's libraries getting distributed in one SDK or DLL doesn't 
automatically make them better. But you are right that those libraries 
interoperate nicer because they were developed as part of the same 
project. If "incredible power and flexibility" is what you need to get 
your job done then stick with the domxml extension, which basically 
wraps the libxml2 and libxslt libraries and right now offers you DOM, 
XPath, XPointer and XSLT. SAX and DTD validation are available in the 
wrapped libraries but currently are not exposed to PHP.

> 2. None of the XML extensions beyond Expat are compiled by default. So to the hosted 
>masses, or those without control over their
> server environment, these extensions may as well not even exist.
> 
> (getting your hosting provider to add new extensions is a longshot. in my experience 
>it rarely ever happens. even if it does, you
> have go through it all over again if you switch hosts)

You obviously cannot make the language responsible for the decisions of 
hosting provider system administrators.

Regards,
Stefan Livieratos
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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Marcus Börger]

I liked Java (the api not the language) for big projects as well. But
only when there
is need for many web servers behind a Loadbalancer/Firewall. For smaller
projects
Java depends on to much memory/cpu resources.
And who wants to use MS in critical environments or with critical Data?
Remember
MS fail to secure their own DNS servers or who knows what MS is capable
to view
on your server? Before XP they did not implement a full tcp/ip stack and
noone knows
what they are doing on the net (besides themselfs - i hope). And what
about the 
resources of Windows - you must have lots of money to be fast with MS
Systems.
As said before by Kristian Koehntopp there is a large amount of LAMP
installations.
Because many people do not use XML/SOAP why should they? Not everyone
has
to sell something on his site(AND some XML parts are in development
even tody).
So we have big/expensives systems using either Sun/*nix or MS/MS on the
one hand
and LAMP for smaller systems on the other hand. Cheap but only for
smaller systems.
When time comes and thinks like SRM become public maybe PHP gets the
capabilities
to run a web-application on multiple machines - then we will have the
need for full SOAP
integration. Before that time we would only provide MS/Java folks with
rapid prototyping 
utilities...
marcus
At 16:41 17.04.2002, you wrote:
Actually,
I use java most of the time.  Who's making the assumptions?
 
Ken

- Original Message - 
From: Robinson,
Mike 
To: 'Ken Egervari' ;
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 9:02 AM
Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

Ken Egervari writes: 

> [snip] When someone with a lot of design experience looks at
the 
> classes, they say, "hmm.. i wonder if all the work done on
PHP is this 
> questionable.". 

Poppycock. 
Are you Manuel Lemos' partner or something? 

You can't step in and out of the big picture to suit your
arguments. 
Your suggestions about PHP falling behind are not supported by
the 
numbers, dollars or sense. You're making assertions and
predictions 
based on the quality and stability of Microsoft products. Good
luck 
to you. Hang onto that taxi license. 

Mike Robinson 


To find out more about what we can do for you, please visit us at:
http://www.tmgtv.ca/
and http://www.thestar.com/ 

RE: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[James Cox]

Guys,

can we take this to the php-evangelism list, which is designed to discuss
(debate, argue) the advocacy of PHP.

send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] to subscribe.

James

-Original Message-
From: Dan Hardiker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 5:22 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform


Is there alot of this sort of bickering on this mailing list, or is this
out of the norm?

Ken, Mike - does it *really* matter who uses what technology to get the job
done? Isn't it much more important what the resulting code is capable of
doing and in what manner?

--
Dan Hardiker [[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
ADAM Software & Systems Engineer
First Creative Ltd


> Ken Egervari writes:
>
>> Actually, I use java most of the time.  Who's making the assumptions?
>
> I assume nothing.
> You posted earlier:
>
>> > I for one have been using Java and .Net for all my applications now.
>
> Which is it, "java most of the time", or "java and .net
> for all my applications now".
>
> Big difference.
>
> Mike Robinson




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RE: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Brent R. Matzelle]

--- Dan Hardiker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ken, Mike - does it *really* matter who uses what technology to get
> the job
> done? Isn't it much more important what the resulting code is
> capable of
> doing and in what manner?

Agreed.  

PHP alone can do nearly all the things that Microsoft products can
do.  For example at work I use ASP, ADO, XML, and XSLT as my primary
tools.  I accomplish the exact same thing with my own projects with
PHP, PHPLIB, domxml, and Smarty.  I don't need the extensive
libraries of Java or .NET.  However, if I need to use them I can with
the java and dotnet extensions for PHP.  

Brent

__
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Dave Mertens]

On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 04:22:00PM -, Dan Hardiker wrote:
> > Ken Egervari writes:
> > > > I for one have been using Java and .Net for all my applications now.
> >
> > Which is it, "java most of the time", or "java and .net
> > for all my applications now".
> >
> > Big difference.
> Is there alot of this sort of bickering on this mailing list, or is this
> out of the norm?

He, you barch in, telling the PEAR community the PEAR sucks big time, and you find it 
peculiar that some people are a bit picky about you??

Dave Mertens

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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[fabwash]

Hi,

I think Ken had a good question to start with, it's just the way it was
formulated that really sucked big time ("fix it or die").

Fab.
- Original Message -
From: "Dan Hardiker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 12:22 PM
Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform


> Is there alot of this sort of bickering on this mailing list, or is this
> out of the norm?
>
> Ken, Mike - does it *really* matter who uses what technology to get the
job
> done? Isn't it much more important what the resulting code is capable of
> doing and in what manner?
>
> --
> Dan Hardiker [[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> ADAM Software & Systems Engineer
> First Creative Ltd
>
>
> > Ken Egervari writes:
> >
> >> Actually, I use java most of the time.  Who's making the assumptions?
> >
> > I assume nothing.
> > You posted earlier:
> >
> >> > I for one have been using Java and .Net for all my applications now.
> >
> > Which is it, "java most of the time", or "java and .net
> > for all my applications now".
> >
> > Big difference.
> >
> > Mike Robinson
>
>
>
>
> --
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> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>

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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Kristian Koehntopp]

Am Dienstag, 16. April 2002 18:23 schrieb Dave Mertens:
> And that's the problem. PHP isn't promoted anymore. Not in the
> way .NET and Java are. 2 years ago i convinced my boss to use
> PHP, but these says MS and Java can do the same stuff as PHP.

Only partially a problem with promotion.

As I see it, neither Java nor .NET have a convincing deployment 
model in a shared (hosting) environment. PHP does run fine as a 
transient server (CGI, FCGI binary) or as a module with save 
mode. Every hosting offer (in Germany at least) does include 
PHP. So nearly all web applications running in a shared 
environment (and this is all small to medium business) is done 
in PHP.

On the other hand it is useless to talk about a PHP object 
framework as long as PHP has to reinstantiate all thus puny 
little objects on each and every call to the application. The 
memory management overhead and initalization does in no way 
scale to justify such a framework. Ulf Wendel, Sebastian 
Bergmann and I did some uncoordinated ad-hoc research into this 
matter and came up all with the same results.

PHP is missing a high-end deployment model, with SRM being a 
possible way out. Problem is, SRM is not mature enough for 
production, yet, is not being actively promoted enough and there 
should be even more development support behind it. And perhaps 
there should be talk about better ZE2/SRM integration.

Only with a deployment model that keeps per-session object 
instances around between requests a larger object framework for 
PHP does pay off. Unless such a deployment model is well 
understood and common for PHP, the investment into a kind of 
"PHP platform" will not pay off sufficiently to justify work in 
this area.

Kristian


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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Andrey Hristov]

- Original Message -
From: "Dave Mertens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Ken Egervari" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

> And because i like PHP i'm still promoting it within my company. But no-one is 
>helping me!!
> The lastest thing my boss read about PHP was the MIME bug.

My opinion ot that is PHP evolved to a stable solution. We haven't seen a security 
update about PHP for many months till MIME bug
appeared. ASP.net is on the desk and we will see if it is security stable.

I'm disturbed by the fact that the ads(seen them in Dr.Dobbs) about .net say that it 
is easy as 1-2-3 to build web applications with
the Visual Studio. I've seen a picture ot the IDE with palette of buttons, forms, 
validating fields, regex fields and so on in the
left. If it is true does MS will be the leading force in the web?

I've also a fight in my company about the use of PHP because some people want to move 
the development to Oracle's bloatware(Oracle
Forms, Portal, etc.) (sorry Thies, but I dont like Oracle so much).

Andrey


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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Andrey Hristov]

Yasuo,
have you tested the SOAP part of xmlrpc?

News from the SOAP world:
1)Dietrich Ayala's SOAPx4 will be renamed to NuSoap because he works for NuSphere for 
some time.
28.March The NuSphere version will be released in a couple of weeks, and licensed 
under the LGPL!
 It will be called NuSOAP. It will be distributed with NuSphere's PHPEd IDE, along 
with a wizard
 that generates code for client web service operations. I'll post docs and the code 
here as soon
 as they are available. Most likely on or after April 12. More new features are listed 
below.
 Any questions? Email me.
2)No really hot news but : As of Sept. 27, 2001, experimental support for SOAP v 1.1 
has been 
added to the library.  This support is implemented transparently to the 
application such that a single API can be used for manipulation of values, 
yet both SOAP and XML-RPC can be read or written. 

The latter is about the xmlrpc-epi library  : http://xmlrpc-epi.sourceforge.net

Andrey

- Original Message - 
From: "Yasuo Ohgaki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Newsgroups: php.dev
To: "Brad Lafountain" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Dave Mertens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Andrey Hristov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform


> Brad Lafountain wrote:
> > --- Dave Mertens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> >>On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 07:27:06AM -0700, brad lafountain wrote:
> >>
> >>>>And next week i have a special C# traning for PHP developers. Offered
> >>>
> >>free by
> >>
> >>>>Microsoft.
> >>>
> >>> alls i have to say is WOW. This is one pathetic attempt by Microsoft. 
> >>
> >>Yeah, but are there any professional tranings for PHP? Do you hear of PHP? 
> >>That's the problem i'm facing. I think PHP is great, i really am.
> >>
> >>But the fact the PHP don't have a proper XML parser, only a scripting SOAP
> >>parser 
> > 
> > 
> >  Well i currently am working on a soap c extension for php (ext/soap). Its
> > pretty fast. And with other technologies like ext/session and ext/msession I
> > have created a way to create a cluster of soap object with each soap request
> > not needing to got the same machine. My extension is in a 'alpha' stage right
> > now. I am working on a website and docuementation right now. After that im
> > going to clean up the code and release an alpha release. I'll definly email
> > this list when i get something i want to release.
> 
> It sounds very nice.
> I'm waiting.
> 
> --
> Yasuo Ohgaki
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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RE: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Dietrich Ayala]

here's some reasons why XML in PHP does not compare favorably to XML in the MS 
platform:

1. None of the XML related extensions work together. SAX, XSLT, DOM, XML Schema are 
part of the same core in MSXML. There is
incredible power and flexibility in that alone.

2. None of the XML extensions beyond Expat are compiled by default. So to the hosted 
masses, or those without control over their
server environment, these extensions may as well not even exist.

(getting your hosting provider to add new extensions is a longshot. in my experience 
it rarely ever happens. even if it does, you
have go through it all over again if you switch hosts)

dietrich

> -Original Message-
> From: Stefan Livieratos [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 5:36 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Dave Mertens
> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Dave Mertens wrote:
>
> > That all great. Almost every company (even google) has a SOAP interface. SOAP 
>relies for a big part on XML.
> > We (ISM, the company i work for) write e-commerce, b2c, b2b, extranet and portal 
>systems.
> > We have to connect several interface to the website. And SOAP makes that much 
>easier.
> >
> > And i know that PHP can also writes console apps with forking, getopt, etc.
> > What i really miss in PHP is a good XML parser. And because i've been working with 
>the MS parser for 2 years now, i'm
> not completely nutral. But i must say that working with the MS parser is realy fun.
> >
>
> Could you please elaborate a little bit more on this? What is not good
> about the PHP XML Parser (Expat) and why is the MSXML Parser superior to
> or "more fun" than the XML extensions of PHP (XML, XSLT, DOMXML)?
>
> The only difference I see featurewise is that MSXML offers XML Schema
> validation which is not yet supported by domxml (libxml2).
>
> Regards,
> Stefan Livieratos
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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[fabwash]

and Google uses php for its website yay!

- Original Message -
From: "Stefan Livieratos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Dave Mertens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform


> Hi,
>
> Dave Mertens wrote:
>
> > That all great. Almost every company (even google) has a SOAP interface.
SOAP relies for a big part on XML.
> > We (ISM, the company i work for) write e-commerce, b2c, b2b, extranet
and portal systems.
> > We have to connect several interface to the website. And SOAP makes that
much easier.
> >
> > And i know that PHP can also writes console apps with forking, getopt,
etc.
> > What i really miss in PHP is a good XML parser. And because i've been
working with the MS parser for 2 years now, i'm not completely nutral. But i
must say that working with the MS parser is realy fun.
> >
>
> Could you please elaborate a little bit more on this? What is not good
> about the PHP XML Parser (Expat) and why is the MSXML Parser superior to
> or "more fun" than the XML extensions of PHP (XML, XSLT, DOMXML)?
>
> The only difference I see featurewise is that MSXML offers XML Schema
> validation which is not yet supported by domxml (libxml2).
>
> Regards,
> Stefan Livieratos
>   --
>
> ICS Plus
> Internet Consulting + Services
> ==
> Aeussere Brucker Str. 51
> D-91058 Erlangen
> Germany
> ==
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>
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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Stefan Livieratos]

Hi,

Dave Mertens wrote:

> That all great. Almost every company (even google) has a SOAP interface. SOAP relies 
>for a big part on XML.
> We (ISM, the company i work for) write e-commerce, b2c, b2b, extranet and portal 
>systems.
> We have to connect several interface to the website. And SOAP makes that much easier.
> 
> And i know that PHP can also writes console apps with forking, getopt, etc. 
> What i really miss in PHP is a good XML parser. And because i've been working with 
>the MS parser for 2 years now, i'm not completely nutral. But i must say that working 
>with the MS parser is realy fun.
> 

Could you please elaborate a little bit more on this? What is not good 
about the PHP XML Parser (Expat) and why is the MSXML Parser superior to 
or "more fun" than the XML extensions of PHP (XML, XSLT, DOMXML)?

The only difference I see featurewise is that MSXML offers XML Schema 
validation which is not yet supported by domxml (libxml2).

Regards,
Stefan Livieratos
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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Dave Mertens]

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 07:08:38PM -0400, Ken Egervari wrote:
> The issue with the phpclasses repository is that none of the classes really
> 'work together' much like the Java and .NET classes.  As you have known,
> extremephp.org was a project I started awhile back to do such a framework
> (well, actually a lot of subframeworks meshed into one).  Nonetheless, this
> hasn't happened with PHP.  Also, the people who submit to phpclasses.org
> don't have to be super architects.  This is good and bad.  The bad thing is,
> many of the classes there aren't as good as they could be because 1 mind was
> behind the wheel and lots of times the classes even brake standard OO design
> heuristics.  When someone with a lot of design experience looks at the
> classes, they say, "hmm.. i wonder if all the work done on PHP is this
> questionable.".  You can't wind everyone, but not too much work has been
> done to make solid OO frameworks and tools.  I tried.. but the project is
> too damn big.
I don't think that their's something wrong behind PHP. I never saw such a clean and 
easy engine as PHP in fact.
With the projects i see today at the company i work, it's not about webpages anymore.
Customers want these days webapplications, connected with mostly several back-ends.

Most companies converted their back-ends from EDI, CSV and other formats to XML. And 
most of it can be requested with SOAP.
A big role in this is Microsoft. Microsoft is really pushing XML and SOAP. Which is 
for everybody a good thing.

The only thing that i need is a good XML parser in PHP. And after MS, came Sun with 
Java2 webservices. So why wouldn't PHP follow.
XML is a big part of the future, and PHP misses a good XML Parser.

Futher, the .NET classes are also 'collections' of classes. Each collection has it own 
related classes.
And where .NET has base classes like data, net, xml, text, etc, PHP has NET_, XML_, 
PEAR DB, etc.

Are pear is still growing. And pear is more variated than the .NET base classes.

> I don't think it has too much to do with bad Fame.  For instance, several
> large companies still use php, including the work I did on altavista and
> Rackspace and audiogalaxy use PHP as well.
I'm not saying PHP has a bad fame. I only saying that most customers even don't know 
the name PHP. But with all the MS bugs, everybody knows the Microsoft tools..
So even the bugs is helping Microsoft.


> Sure, more well known sites that
> use PHP would increase its popularity, but what I really think is that PHP
> needs a real platform that makes it even faster to develop websites and
> client-side tools - or it's going to fall behind.  It's really as simple as
> that.
Websites are already fast to write in PHP. Web applications are harder to write in PHP.
In ASP i do a lot with the application session. It holds important application data. 
In PHP i simulate this with an serialized array that is read from file every request.

And maybe i'm not the right person to say what's good and not. I work a lot with both 
ASP and PHP. And i only tell what i'm seeing.

That's all
And for now, good night everybody!

Dave Mertens

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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Ken Egervari]

The issue with the phpclasses repository is that none of the classes really
'work together' much like the Java and .NET classes.  As you have known,
extremephp.org was a project I started awhile back to do such a framework
(well, actually a lot of subframeworks meshed into one).  Nonetheless, this
hasn't happened with PHP.  Also, the people who submit to phpclasses.org
don't have to be super architects.  This is good and bad.  The bad thing is,
many of the classes there aren't as good as they could be because 1 mind was
behind the wheel and lots of times the classes even brake standard OO design
heuristics.  When someone with a lot of design experience looks at the
classes, they say, "hmm.. i wonder if all the work done on PHP is this
questionable.".  You can't wind everyone, but not too much work has been
done to make solid OO frameworks and tools.  I tried.. but the project is
too damn big.

I don't think it has too much to do with bad Fame.  For instance, several
large companies still use php, including the work I did on altavista and
Rackspace and audiogalaxy use PHP as well.  Sure, more well known sites that
use PHP would increase its popularity, but what I really think is that PHP
needs a real platform that makes it even faster to develop websites and
client-side tools - or it's going to fall behind.  It's really as simple as
that.

Regards,
Ken Egervari

- Original Message -
From: "Manuel Lemos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Ken Egervari" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 7:00 PM
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform


> Hello,
>
> Ken Egervari wrote:
> >
> > I'd have to agree with Dave.  PHP is too far behind and for those that
> > didn't agree with earlier post that started this entire topic about
> > developing a a PHP Platform, this is the reality that we all face.  I
for
> > one have been using Java and .Net for all my applications now.  PHP just
> > doesn't come into the picture any longer.  I can't see any performance
or
> > coding time benefits that justify using it.  The fact that I write
something
> > in Java and 20x more people can make use of it is even more gratifying.
How
> > long as PEAR being around?  Maybe not nearly enough as Java, but don't
even
>
> You are touching a sensitive key. PEAR aimed to be like CPAN but since
> contributing is reserved to a few privileged minds, there is no
> adherence to it.
>
> OTOH, anybody contribute for instance to the PHP Classes repository,
> just like to CPAN. The advantage against CPAN is that the PHP Classes
> repository assures an guaranteed audience of tens of thousands of PHP
> users that are eager to learn abour new classes. Here you may see the
> stats about over 32.000 users that get notifications about all the new
> content in there:
>
>
> > have a great collections framework, lack of standard xml parsers and
even
> > tools to make our coding easier.  I'm a convert I suppose.  I'm loosing
> > everyday as I see PHP code already in production and that I can't take
the
> > facilities of .NET or Java as a whole.  It's sad really that the PHP
> > community isn't large enough to keep up.  I too how ze2 will justify any
> > code i've written, but I look now upon it as a very large waste.  It's
> > unfortunate.
>
>
> Too bad people are addressing the wrong problem. The greatest appeal of
> Java and .Net for many companies is that unlike with PHP, they offer
> more perspectives of profiting from investing on them. PHP has the bad
> fame of being something that only poor people use. You don't see big
> names being advertised to use PHP that would clear that bad fame of PHP.
>
> Regards,
> Manuel Lemos
>


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Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PHP-EVANGELISM] RE: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Daniel Lorch]

Hi,

> Just a note, that we also have a web server written in PHP ;)
> http://nanoweb.si.kz/

and a protocol-independent server framework (which includes a sample
webserver, too):

  http://daniel.lorch.cc/projects/phpserv/

SCNR :)

-daniel



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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Dave Mertens]

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 11:27:36AM -0400, Robert Cummings wrote:
> I keep hearing a lot of "my company this in microsoft" and "my company that"
> and "blah blah blah". I'm sorry, but if the fullfillment of all your dreams
> are in your company then you live a sad, sad life. The future is what you make
> of it, and each and every person has the power to contribute to change what
> may be.

He, i'm doing great projects for my company. And i don't mind programming into a other 
language than PHP.
I only always try to get PHP into the picture. Just because i like PHP. It can do so 
much, but i also see that it's getting behind.

And if Zend is writing the ZE2 engine that thay say in their PDF i think that PHP 
still has a future.
But into that same future belongs a good XML parser.

And i heared that there are currently 2(!) SOAP projects within PHP. So i think that 
part is covered.


That's all. I only have a problem that i can't express myself that well.. ;-(

Dave Mertens



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RE: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[James Cox]

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 05:09:57PM +0100, James Cox wrote:
> I hear you on the call to make PHP more recognisable. That's why we have
the
> php-evangelism project, where we are putting together documents and facts
as
> to why choose PHP over other languages. Really advocating PHP. I invite
> you - and anyone else interested - to join.
I must say this is the first time i heared about that project.. And how can
i join the program?!

send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Damien Seguy (dams)
and I are working on getting a site together where we can publish
information about PHP for people like your boss.

james


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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Dave Mertens]

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 05:09:57PM +0100, James Cox wrote:
> I hear you on the call to make PHP more recognisable. That's why we have the
> php-evangelism project, where we are putting together documents and facts as
> to why choose PHP over other languages. Really advocating PHP. I invite
> you - and anyone else interested - to join.
I must say this is the first time i heared about that project.. And how can i join the 
program?!


> Secondly, as to why PHP sucks because it doesn't have a soap extension (bla
> bla bla). It doesn't suck. The beauty of PHP is that it carries from C
> something really special. A lighweight basic environment for getting things
> done. You don't need ext/soap or ext/java -- you can do a whole load of
> these things without needing to have to leave PHP userspace, as Shane has
> demonstrated with his excellent PEAR SOAP classes.
> 
> That's the beauty of PHP -- you can do everything within the language. We're
> even getting to the stage in which you can use PHP to write things that you
> would traditionally use perl, or c (eg, irc bots, email handlers, even
> ide's - with php-gtk) to handle.
That all great. Almost every company (even google) has a SOAP interface. SOAP relies 
for a big part on XML.
We (ISM, the company i work for) write e-commerce, b2c, b2b, extranet and portal 
systems.
We have to connect several interface to the website. And SOAP makes that much easier.

And i know that PHP can also writes console apps with forking, getopt, etc. 
What i really miss in PHP is a good XML parser. And because i've been working with the 
MS parser for 2 years now, i'm not completely nutral. But i must say that working with 
the MS parser is realy fun.

And this like variable variables are quite unique. Also what i've read about the ZE2 
engine (destructors, private vars) really interests me.
I only hope that their will be also an property mechanism. But with the private i can 
force the use of $object->setX and $object->getX.
Also static variables are a must. Overloading is a keyword these days with .NET

And because isn't the booman as i'm descriping him, he's writing out a company contest.
We (Linux/kde/php) get a Sharp Zaures and the ASP (Win CE + .NET) get a HP Jornada.

Both teams have to write an extranet for the handhelds. But i think kde will be 
replaced by gnome, there's isn't PHP-QT yet..
Both extranets needs to be extendable to fit later requirements. For now kept secret.

And the most important rule. Each team must make an API for import/export the data 
hold by the applications. Direct DB access is forbidden.
The winning product will be used in a warehouse enviroment.

My change to proof that PHP is still these days a good tool. Oh both teams exists of 4 
developers to keep it fair.

> It has been mentioned before -- "what is there left to do to PHP?" -- and I
> believe that we could just fix up all the bugs left, and then work on
> writing add-ons in pecl or pear. Really, lets stop turning this language
> into bloat-ware with all the latest plugins and gadgets (that make other
> languages hell to learn), and stick with our original principles : and easy
> language to learn and extend.

But there's a feature that could solve the bloat-ware, namely DL. Don't put everything 
static in PHP, but more in a module way.
Like all the dll's that are supplied with the ISAPI binaries.

And ISM (the company i work for) already wrote an application/session/page RPC server 
to maintain states. The only problem is that my boss doesn't let me commit the RPC 
server ;-(

But i will stop writing negative about PHP.. But i still believe that PHP needs to 
keep up with other languages.

Dave Mertens


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[PHP-DEV] Re: [PHP-EVANGELISM] RE: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Gabor Hojtsy]

> It has been mentioned before -- "what is there left to do to PHP?" -- and
I
> believe that we could just fix up all the bugs left, and then work on
> writing add-ons in pecl or pear. Really, lets stop turning this language
> into bloat-ware with all the latest plugins and gadgets (that make other
> languages hell to learn), and stick with our original principles : and
easy
> language to learn and extend.

Just a note, that we also have a web server written in PHP ;)
http://nanoweb.si.kz/

Goba



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RE: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[James Cox]

I hear you on the call to make PHP more recognisable. That's why we have the
php-evangelism project, where we are putting together documents and facts as
to why choose PHP over other languages. Really advocating PHP. I invite
you - and anyone else interested - to join.

Secondly, as to why PHP sucks because it doesn't have a soap extension (bla
bla bla). It doesn't suck. The beauty of PHP is that it carries from C
something really special. A lighweight basic environment for getting things
done. You don't need ext/soap or ext/java -- you can do a whole load of
these things without needing to have to leave PHP userspace, as Shane has
demonstrated with his excellent PEAR SOAP classes.

That's the beauty of PHP -- you can do everything within the language. We're
even getting to the stage in which you can use PHP to write things that you
would traditionally use perl, or c (eg, irc bots, email handlers, even
ide's - with php-gtk) to handle.

It has been mentioned before -- "what is there left to do to PHP?" -- and I
believe that we could just fix up all the bugs left, and then work on
writing add-ons in pecl or pear. Really, lets stop turning this language
into bloat-ware with all the latest plugins and gadgets (that make other
languages hell to learn), and stick with our original principles : and easy
language to learn and extend.

james


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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Dave Mertens]

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 11:20:26PM +0800, Alan Knowles wrote:
> I know this is going nowhere :) but anyway - its late here and I've got 
> a few secs to kill
> 
> Ask your boss, how often has he done a project using microsoft tools, 
> and its been seriously delayed because they found a serious bug in the 
> microsoft tools, that had to be worked around.- if he answers never i 
> would be amazed !
I nevery experienced any bugs related to ASP. Most bugs are related to security issues.

> Delayed = late delivery = unsatified customer = bad reputation = no more 
> contracts!
We (ISM) are running the one of the most visited webshops in the world 
(shop.kazaa.com, a third party shop of the Free Record Shop company).
It's running on 3 webservers and 1 database server. And it's all programmed on the 
standard ASP package.

And the CMS system we now have is eating my PHP ground away.. As you might know, 
soccer is very big in Europe. We're also running with the same ASP-code the 
'voetbal.nl' site.

And to be fair, most big sites are running asp these days.

> The difference with PHP (and perl,pike,python, ruby..etc), is that 
> when there is a problem, your project is not delayed, you have full 
> access to the source, you can find the problem, fix it and carry on with 
> minimal delays.. - no workaround. - no code thats going to break on the 
> next MS update!
And you think fixing the PHP don't take time.. I don't have the time to fix the 
problem. So even than i have to wait till it's fixed.


> This is the core to the reason behind why all of these languages are 
> better than c#/java - you are empowered to solve your own problems, 
> rather than relying on 3 levels of technical support and promises that 
> it will be fixed and wont break your code.
And that's also the weakness behind those tools. A PHP (scripting) developer mostly 
can't fix the C code of PHP.
So he's also depended on other people.

And these days microsoft is taking bugs very seriously. Ok, Microsoft is now creating 
a lot of patches. And they do it fast.
When i bug is reported and they can reproduce them it mostly is fixed within a month.

> the logic is in the philosophy not the marketing = no seminar is ever 
> going to solve this problem :)
I'm only trying to say (here we go again..) that it's hard to defend PHP in a 
microsoft company.

But it's not impossible. The fact that i can commit to PEAR says enough.
I hardly program in my free time. That time i'm usinf for my social life.

And here it's almost 18:00 (CEST) so i'm going to play some soccer.

Happy programming!!
Dave Mertens

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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Dave Mertens]

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 10:54:33AM -0400, Ken Egervari wrote:
> a) no enough are learning php which in itself, says PHP is not doing a good
> enough job promoting the language
And that's the problem. PHP isn't promoted anymore. Not in the way .NET and Java are.
2 years ago i convinced my boss to use PHP, but these says MS and Java can do the same 
stuff as PHP.

So how do i have to justify the use of PHP if .NET is doing the same. But at my 
company there are in total 6 PHP developers, 12 java and 39 ASP developers.

All the programmers are MCSD certified. Even the PHP developers! Oh the PHP developers 
have also a brainbench certificate. The Java guys are also Java certifified

So everyone (in the company) knows the MS tools. But only 6 PHP.  And with these facts 
my boss choses for ASP/.NET

> b) there actually needs to be more support for PHP software in comparison to
> .net and java applications.
First, the PHP documentation is great. But that's all.
Did you even seen what MSDN and TechNet are providing. honderds of cd's with 
documentation, articles, code samples, columns and the latest version of the most 
important MS products.

And because i like PHP i'm still promoting it within my company. But no-one is helping 
me!!
The lastest thing my boss read about PHP was the MIME bug.
 
And about the trainings. You're crazy thinking knowing the language is enough. If 
you're buy 3 books about PHP. They will all learn you to program in PHP.
But all three in a different way. And the more ways you know to solve a problem, the 
better.

And those training provides you with that knowlegde.
And as long microsoft is giving away those free training (not briefings) i'm very 
willing to take them.

Dave Mertens

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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Yasuo Ohgaki]

Brad Lafountain wrote:
> --- Dave Mertens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>>On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 07:27:06AM -0700, brad lafountain wrote:
>>
And next week i have a special C# traning for PHP developers. Offered
>>>
>>free by
>>
Microsoft.
>>>
>>> alls i have to say is WOW. This is one pathetic attempt by Microsoft. 
>>
>>Yeah, but are there any professional tranings for PHP? Do you hear of PHP? 
>>That's the problem i'm facing. I think PHP is great, i really am.
>>
>>But the fact the PHP don't have a proper XML parser, only a scripting SOAP
>>parser 
> 
> 
>  Well i currently am working on a soap c extension for php (ext/soap). Its
> pretty fast. And with other technologies like ext/session and ext/msession I
> have created a way to create a cluster of soap object with each soap request
> not needing to got the same machine. My extension is in a 'alpha' stage right
> now. I am working on a website and docuementation right now. After that im
> going to clean up the code and release an alpha release. I'll definly email
> this list when i get something i want to release.

It sounds very nice.
I'm waiting.

--
Yasuo Ohgaki




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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Robert Cummings]

I keep hearing a lot of "my company this in microsoft" and "my company that"
and "blah blah blah". I'm sorry, but if the fullfillment of all your dreams
are in your company then you live a sad, sad life. The future is what you make
of it, and each and every person has the power to contribute to change what
may be.

Cheers,
Rob.


Dave Mertens wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 07:57:26AM -0700, brad lafountain wrote:
> > > --- Dave Mertens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > But the fact the PHP don't have a proper XML parser, only a scripting SOAP
> > > parser
> >
> >  Well i currently am working on a soap c extension for php (ext/soap). Its
> > pretty fast. And with other technologies like ext/session and ext/msession I
> > have created a way to create a cluster of soap object with each soap request
> > not needing to got the same machine. My extension is in a 'alpha' stage right
> > now. I am working on a website and docuementation right now. After that im
> > going to clean up the code and release an alpha release. I'll definly email
> > this list when i get something i want to release.
> 
> I didn't know there was an native SOAP parses in PHP. I hope it will become 
>production soon, so i can start using it.
> 
> But than on the other hand XML is still very poor in PHP. And the relation between 
>SOAP and XML is very tight.
> 
> But i'm not trying to trap someone into the floor, i'm only saying what i'm facing 
>as a PHP developer in a company that is a Microsoft partner.
> See it as a coca-cola agent who likes Pepsi. It's hard to sell Coca-cola when you 
>like Pepsi.
> 
> But i'm a Pepsi agent that is trying to sell Pepsi to the Coca-cola factory!
> 
> Dave Mertens
> 
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-- 
.-.
| Robert Cummings |
:-`.
| Webdeployer - Chief PHP and Java Programmer  |
:--:
| Mail  : mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] |
| Phone : (613) 731-4046 x.109 |
:--:
| Website : http://www.webmotion.com   |
| Fax : (613) 260-9545 |
`--'

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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Alan Knowles]

I know this is going nowhere :) but anyway - its late here and I've got 
a few secs to kill

Ask your boss, how often has he done a project using microsoft tools, 
and its been seriously delayed because they found a serious bug in the 
microsoft tools, that had to be worked around.- if he answers never i 
would be amazed !

Delayed = late delivery = unsatified customer = bad reputation = no more 
contracts!

The difference with PHP (and perl,pike,python, ruby..etc), is that 
when there is a problem, your project is not delayed, you have full 
access to the source, you can find the problem, fix it and carry on with 
minimal delays.. - no workaround. - no code thats going to break on the 
next MS update!

This is the core to the reason behind why all of these languages are 
better than c#/java - you are empowered to solve your own problems, 
rather than relying on 3 levels of technical support and promises that 
it will be fixed and wont break your code.

the logic is in the philosophy not the marketing = no seminar is ever 
going to solve this problem :)

anyway -  just one angle to try

best regards
alan

Dave Mertens wrote:

>On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 07:27:06AM -0700, brad lafountain wrote:
>
>>>And next week i have a special C# traning for PHP developers. Offered free by
>>>Microsoft.
>>>
>> alls i have to say is WOW. This is one pathetic attempt by Microsoft. 
>>
>Yeah, but are there any professional tranings for PHP? Do you hear of PHP? 
>That's the problem i'm facing. I think PHP is great, i really am.
>
>But the fact the PHP don't have a proper XML parser, only a scripting SOAP parser 
>makes it for my boss easy to choose for ASP/Java in stead of PHP. And what can i do 
>about it, absolutely nothing!
>I don't have the knowledge to make PHP itself better. That why i submit as much as i 
>can (and allowed) to PEAR.
>
>Hoping that it will end as a set of foundation classes.
>
>But now, all new projects are done with ASP. And why? Because Microsoft has a damn 
>good marketing machine.
>They even have now commercials for .NET! 
>
>And about the training. Microsoft knows that PHP is getting behind and they are 
>saying that .NET can do almost everything what PHP can and more.
>I can only say that i hope ZE2 will change this. But i have a hard time on my work 
>defending PHP.
>
>Yeah. When a company becomes a Microsoft Partner you get a lot of MS licenses for 
>free! Buy MSDN Universal and you get more programs for Free.
>And the company i work for is a gold partner. We have 100 free licenses for XP! Why 
>use linux??
>
>2 years ago PHP was leading egde. I hope that the ZE2 engine makes it a leading 
>language again.
>
>Dave Mertens
>




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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Dave Mertens]

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 07:57:26AM -0700, brad lafountain wrote:
> > --- Dave Mertens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > But the fact the PHP don't have a proper XML parser, only a scripting SOAP
> > parser 
> 
>  Well i currently am working on a soap c extension for php (ext/soap). Its
> pretty fast. And with other technologies like ext/session and ext/msession I
> have created a way to create a cluster of soap object with each soap request
> not needing to got the same machine. My extension is in a 'alpha' stage right
> now. I am working on a website and docuementation right now. After that im
> going to clean up the code and release an alpha release. I'll definly email
> this list when i get something i want to release.

I didn't know there was an native SOAP parses in PHP. I hope it will become production 
soon, so i can start using it.

But than on the other hand XML is still very poor in PHP. And the relation between 
SOAP and XML is very tight.

But i'm not trying to trap someone into the floor, i'm only saying what i'm facing as 
a PHP developer in a company that is a Microsoft partner.
See it as a coca-cola agent who likes Pepsi. It's hard to sell Coca-cola when you like 
Pepsi.

But i'm a Pepsi agent that is trying to sell Pepsi to the Coca-cola factory!

Dave Mertens

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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[brad lafountain]

--- Dave Mertens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 07:27:06AM -0700, brad lafountain wrote:
> > > And next week i have a special C# traning for PHP developers. Offered
> free by
> > > Microsoft.
> > 
> >  alls i have to say is WOW. This is one pathetic attempt by Microsoft. 
> Yeah, but are there any professional tranings for PHP? Do you hear of PHP? 
> That's the problem i'm facing. I think PHP is great, i really am.
> 
> But the fact the PHP don't have a proper XML parser, only a scripting SOAP
> parser 

 Well i currently am working on a soap c extension for php (ext/soap). Its
pretty fast. And with other technologies like ext/session and ext/msession I
have created a way to create a cluster of soap object with each soap request
not needing to got the same machine. My extension is in a 'alpha' stage right
now. I am working on a website and docuementation right now. After that im
going to clean up the code and release an alpha release. I'll definly email
this list when i get something i want to release.

 - Brad



__
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Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Ken Egervari]

I the fact that you still program says 2 things

a) no enough are learning php which in itself, says PHP is not doing a good
enough job promoting the language

b) there actually needs to be more support for PHP software in comparison to
.net and java applications.

- Original Message -
From: "Dave Mertens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Andi Gutmans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "brad lafountain" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Andrey Hristov"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform


> On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 05:40:19PM +0300, Andi Gutmans wrote:
> > At 07:27 16/04/2002 -0700, brad lafountain wrote:
> > > > And next week i have a special C# traning for PHP developers.
Offered
> > > free by
> > > > Microsoft.
> > >
> > >  alls i have to say is WOW. This is one pathetic attempt by Microsoft.
> >
> > I wouldn't call it pathetic because these things work.
> And of these things work. We have 2 fulltime PHP developers and 4
part-time PHP developers which includes me. And with part-time i mean, those
developers also write ASP, C# and Java code.
>
> And ofcouse i'm going to such trainings. Maybe i even learn something.
> And oh, i'm also a MSDE programmer. That's was a requirement of my boss.
>
> My job title says that i'm a Technical project manager. But i'm lucky i'm
still program. Other tpm's are only busy managing their projects.
> But i'm a bit special. I know PHP! And that makes that i'm still program.
>
> Dave Mertens
>
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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Ken Egervari]

I'd have to agree with Dave.  PHP is too far behind and for those that
didn't agree with earlier post that started this entire topic about
developing a a PHP Platform, this is the reality that we all face.  I for
one have been using Java and .Net for all my applications now.  PHP just
doesn't come into the picture any longer.  I can't see any performance or
coding time benefits that justify using it.  The fact that I write something
in Java and 20x more people can make use of it is even more gratifying.  How
long as PEAR being around?  Maybe not nearly enough as Java, but don't even
have a great collections framework, lack of standard xml parsers and even
tools to make our coding easier.  I'm a convert I suppose.  I'm loosing
everyday as I see PHP code already in production and that I can't take the
facilities of .NET or Java as a whole.  It's sad really that the PHP
community isn't large enough to keep up.  I too how ze2 will justify any
code i've written, but I look now upon it as a very large waste.  It's
unfortunate.

- Original Message -
From: "Dave Mertens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "brad lafountain" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Andrey Hristov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform


> On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 07:27:06AM -0700, brad lafountain wrote:
> > > And next week i have a special C# traning for PHP developers. Offered
free by
> > > Microsoft.
> >
> >  alls i have to say is WOW. This is one pathetic attempt by Microsoft.
> Yeah, but are there any professional tranings for PHP? Do you hear of PHP?
> That's the problem i'm facing. I think PHP is great, i really am.
>
> But the fact the PHP don't have a proper XML parser, only a scripting SOAP
parser
> makes it for my boss easy to choose for ASP/Java in stead of PHP. And what
can i do about it, absolutely nothing!
> I don't have the knowledge to make PHP itself better. That why i submit as
much as i can (and allowed) to PEAR.
>
> Hoping that it will end as a set of foundation classes.
>
> But now, all new projects are done with ASP. And why? Because Microsoft
has a damn good marketing machine.
> They even have now commercials for .NET!
>
> And about the training. Microsoft knows that PHP is getting behind and
they are saying that .NET can do almost everything what PHP can and more.
> I can only say that i hope ZE2 will change this. But i have a hard time on
my work defending PHP.
>
> Yeah. When a company becomes a Microsoft Partner you get a lot of MS
licenses for free! Buy MSDN Universal and you get more programs for Free.
> And the company i work for is a gold partner. We have 100 free licenses
for XP! Why use linux??
>
> 2 years ago PHP was leading egde. I hope that the ZE2 engine makes it a
leading language again.
>
> Dave Mertens
>
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>


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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Dave Mertens]

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 05:40:19PM +0300, Andi Gutmans wrote:
> At 07:27 16/04/2002 -0700, brad lafountain wrote:
> > > And next week i have a special C# traning for PHP developers. Offered 
> > free by
> > > Microsoft.
> >
> >  alls i have to say is WOW. This is one pathetic attempt by Microsoft.
> 
> I wouldn't call it pathetic because these things work.
And of these things work. We have 2 fulltime PHP developers and 4 part-time PHP 
developers which includes me. And with part-time i mean, those developers also write 
ASP, C# and Java code.

And ofcouse i'm going to such trainings. Maybe i even learn something.
And oh, i'm also a MSDE programmer. That's was a requirement of my boss.

My job title says that i'm a Technical project manager. But i'm lucky i'm still 
program. Other tpm's are only busy managing their projects. 
But i'm a bit special. I know PHP! And that makes that i'm still program.

Dave Mertens

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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Dave Mertens]

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 07:27:06AM -0700, brad lafountain wrote:
> > And next week i have a special C# traning for PHP developers. Offered free by
> > Microsoft.
> 
>  alls i have to say is WOW. This is one pathetic attempt by Microsoft. 
Yeah, but are there any professional tranings for PHP? Do you hear of PHP? 
That's the problem i'm facing. I think PHP is great, i really am.

But the fact the PHP don't have a proper XML parser, only a scripting SOAP parser 
makes it for my boss easy to choose for ASP/Java in stead of PHP. And what can i do 
about it, absolutely nothing!
I don't have the knowledge to make PHP itself better. That why i submit as much as i 
can (and allowed) to PEAR.

Hoping that it will end as a set of foundation classes.

But now, all new projects are done with ASP. And why? Because Microsoft has a damn 
good marketing machine.
They even have now commercials for .NET! 

And about the training. Microsoft knows that PHP is getting behind and they are saying 
that .NET can do almost everything what PHP can and more.
I can only say that i hope ZE2 will change this. But i have a hard time on my work 
defending PHP.

Yeah. When a company becomes a Microsoft Partner you get a lot of MS licenses for 
free! Buy MSDN Universal and you get more programs for Free.
And the company i work for is a gold partner. We have 100 free licenses for XP! Why 
use linux??

2 years ago PHP was leading egde. I hope that the ZE2 engine makes it a leading 
language again.

Dave Mertens

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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Andi Gutmans]

At 07:27 16/04/2002 -0700, brad lafountain wrote:
> > And next week i have a special C# traning for PHP developers. Offered 
> free by
> > Microsoft.
>
>  alls i have to say is WOW. This is one pathetic attempt by Microsoft.

I wouldn't call it pathetic because these things work.

Andi


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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[brad lafountain]

> And next week i have a special C# traning for PHP developers. Offered free by
> Microsoft.

 alls i have to say is WOW. This is one pathetic attempt by Microsoft. 

 - Brad


__
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Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Andrey Hristov]

Hi
> I know that there are RPC and SOAP classes. But that is not the point that i wanted 
>to make.
> What i'm trying to say is that companies never hear about PHP. OK, they hear about 
>the MIME bug and did you know what my boss
said??
> You see, PHP is just as bad as ASP, so why use PHP and not ASP?
>
> But only having the classes and documentation for it isn't enough these days. PHP is 
>getting behind on .NET and Java(2). But i
love PHP. I see it as C for the web.
> I use a C writing style, weird anough java extending, and i compile it (Zend 
>encoder).
> And PHP is more multi platform than Java (ok, php won't run on your microwave).
>
> It's a hard world for a PHP developer in an Microsoft company/world. I only think 
>that SOAP support should be native and must have
a much better XML support (Ever looked at the MSXML parser). Than it might be able to 
compete with .NET and Java.
> And next week i have a special C# traning for PHP developers. Offered free by 
>Microsoft.
>
> And because these type of actions of Microsoft i'm lossing grip on my boss to use 
>PHP. So please, keep PHP the best!
>
The XMLRPC extension does not provide class wrapper it is not OOP. Ok there is a 
wrapper class to help people that wrote code for
the Edd Dumbill lib to swtich easily.
I've used the xmlrpc extension for a while and I can say that it is more intuitive and 
hides the (de)serizalization that is needed
with Edd's code. But the code is not final no matter that some people use it in 
production enviroment.So as well there is a talk on
php-dev on forking GD why not some effort on the xmlrpc extension, to make it 
compatible with the new streams. I've not seen many
changes to the extension on php-cvs for a long time.

We know what is the MS biz practice. I am not sure but one day they may give 
developers money to use .net platform and once there
are many apps for .net they may switch to other policy.
Java has SUN on its back and it is compilable to bytecode. I'll tell you a little 
story.
Several months ago when I went to find a professor that will guide me for my bachelor 
thesis I said that I can program in PHP and I
want to make an extension for PHP. The reaction was bad because she thinks that PHP is 
interpreted(scripting) language for the web;
everyone can write in PHP that's why it is not serious. I left the room after this. 
However she is now my guide for the thesis but I
had to speak more than an hour why PHP is not so bad, why it is better than ASP.
If IBM says "Ok people. As well as we support linux development we will support PHP" 
the statuquo will change dramatically. PHP
needs a big name on its back. Zend is good company but cannot fight MS and SUN.


Best regards,
Andrey


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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Dave Mertens]

On Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 03:40:15PM +0300, Andrey Hristov wrote:
> >
> > I really have to fight within the company i work to keep PHP. Do you know what PHP 
>really needs? Good native XML and SOAP
> support..
> > Without that it's very hard to convince my boss that PHP is the right tool for the 
>job.
> >
> > I develop for a living. And i'm not only programming in PHP. I do also Java, VB, 
>C# and a little C. And i have to say that even
> with the high license costs of Microsoft, they are providing a solid developer base 
>with good support from MSDN and Technet. You
> can't around it and that is why my boss want to use .NET. Ever saw an ad for PHP?? 
>You don't read of PHP.
> 
> The XML-RPC extension supports SOAP at some point and it is transparent to the user. 
>No matter if it is XMLRPC request or SOAP
> request one thing is done. Of course it is not final and relies on the xmlrpc-epi 
>library, thus the extension is just a wrapper.
> Probably some efforts can be made in the development of xmlrpc-epi. I am sorry that 
>I am not too proficient in C otherwise I would
> help.
> But reading an article on /. and one on ZDnet about web services disturbed me 
>because IBM and MS may patent some of the roots of web
> services. As You may know MS was one of the companies which helped the evolvement of 
>XMLRPC and its extension SOAP.

I know that there are RPC and SOAP classes. But that is not the point that i wanted to 
make.
What i'm trying to say is that companies never hear about PHP. OK, they hear about the 
MIME bug and did you know what my boss said??
You see, PHP is just as bad as ASP, so why use PHP and not ASP?

But only having the classes and documentation for it isn't enough these days. PHP is 
getting behind on .NET and Java(2). But i love PHP. I see it as C for the web.
I use a C writing style, weird anough java extending, and i compile it (Zend encoder).
And PHP is more multi platform than Java (ok, php won't run on your microwave).

It's a hard world for a PHP developer in an Microsoft company/world. I only think that 
SOAP support should be native and must have a much better XML support (Ever looked at 
the MSXML parser). Than it might be able to compete with .NET and Java.
And next week i have a special C# traning for PHP developers. Offered free by 
Microsoft.

And because these type of actions of Microsoft i'm lossing grip on my boss to use PHP. 
So please, keep PHP the best!

Dave Mertens

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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Robert Cummings]

Hey all,

I'm just doing a general followup to say how much I love the PHP
engine. I find it extremely fast for development and I love that
I can integrate C extension modules when time is a huge factor.
While PHP seems to be moving into the shadows here where I work
I find that I love it more and more personally and is my favourite
engine for doing just about everything. I use it for the web and
for shell scripting. Most of all I love that something like this
can be free, since in my spare time I like to code for a MUD,
which doesn't make me any money, but which I find very satisfying.
Kudos to all the PHP contributors.

Cheers,
Rob.
-- 
.-.
| Robert Cummings |
:-`.
| Webdeployer - Chief PHP and Java Programmer  |
:--:
| Mail  : mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] |
| Phone : (613) 731-4046 x.109 |
:--:
| Website : http://www.webmotion.com   |
| Fax : (613) 260-9545 |
`--'

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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Andrey Hristov]

>
> I really have to fight within the company i work to keep PHP. Do you know what PHP 
>really needs? Good native XML and SOAP
support..
> Without that it's very hard to convince my boss that PHP is the right tool for the 
>job.
>
> I develop for a living. And i'm not only programming in PHP. I do also Java, VB, C# 
>and a little C. And i have to say that even
with the high license costs of Microsoft, they are providing a solid developer base 
with good support from MSDN and Technet. You
can't around it and that is why my boss want to use .NET. Ever saw an ad for PHP?? You 
don't read of PHP.

The XML-RPC extension supports SOAP at some point and it is transparent to the user. 
No matter if it is XMLRPC request or SOAP
request one thing is done. Of course it is not final and relies on the xmlrpc-epi 
library, thus the extension is just a wrapper.
Probably some efforts can be made in the development of xmlrpc-epi. I am sorry that I 
am not too proficient in C otherwise I would
help.
But reading an article on /. and one on ZDnet about web services disturbed me because 
IBM and MS may patent some of the roots of web
services. As You may know MS was one of the companies which helped the evolvement of 
XMLRPC and its extension SOAP.


Andrey


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RE: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Rose, Billy]

Have you buried your head into the source code to see how it works? If not,
I suggest looking at what they have done before making the statement over
performance. There is nothing I have seen that suggests they are
implementing slowness (on purpose, by mistake, or for lack of time). These
guys _know_ what the hell there're doing. The fact that Zend goes one step
further to make PHP really smoke by offering their products, tells me PHP is
a solid platform they must really trust. Further still, that they really
trust open source. Everyone has had problems with a credit card at times,
that does not reflect on the base product, or the guys that have developed,
built, maintained, and enhanced it. 

Billy Rose 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> -Original Message-
> From: medvitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 10:57 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform
> 
> 
> 
> I don't really have an issue with the Zend people making 
> money from their 
> products.  
> 
> The concern I have is that they sell perfoamance enhancing products.  
> Because they are selling these, I worry that performance in 
> the base Zend 
> engine will not be / is not a primary concern.  I think that 
> performance 
> should be a top priority for the 'base' engine.  People 
> outside of Zend are 
> contributing a good amount of time to creating extensions, 
> writing PEAR 
> modules, and promoting PHP, and , in my opinion , these 
> efforts are being 
> used by Zend who are holding back on performance.  
> 
> Yes... the optimizer is free.  But it doesn't always have to be.
> 
> I like PHP, I use PHP, I use PHP for clients work, so yes 
> I make money 
> off of PHP.  I expect that the Zend psople can as well, 
> without holding 
> back on the community that helped them get where they are today.
> 
> 
> I've got some biases here.  I was a subscriber, for a time to the 
> developer's pachage that they had towards the beginning.  For 
> $600 a year I 
> got the Encoder, the debug server and 2 client licenses.  
> They had a pay by 
> month option and I selected this, as my company wasn't going 
> to reimburse 
> me for this expense.  When my bank got bought and I had to 
> get use a new 
> card to keep up on the payments no one could do it.  I 
> emailed the people 
> who handled the credit card transactiosn, and I emailed Zend. 
>  I got no 
> responsse what-so-ever, but a lot of emails telling me they 
> couldn't bill 
> my card (all of which I replied to asking how to change my 
> card info).  I'm 
> glad you have had good expeirience with them, 'cause I 
> haven't.  And the 
> package that made the mose sense to me, they no longer offer.  
> 
> 
> Medvitz
> 
> 
> Dave Mertens wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 07:32:47PM -0400, medvitz wrote:
> >> The issue I have with PHP is that the people in charge 
> have reasons for
> >> not
> >> implementing performance enhancements in the base code.  
> They charge a
> >> fair
> >> amount for add-ons that increases performance drastically.  I could
> >> actually argue that extensibility and performance on the 
> back end aren't
> >> what they should be for this reason.
> >> 
> >> Not that I want to make enemies here, but I think this is 
> a realistic
> >> criticism.  Not to mention that the Qt license that is 
> used prevents
> >> anyone from making extensions and selling them w/o an 
> additional license
> >> from the
> >> Zend people.  So they are able to make money off of the 
> hard work of all
> >> of the module contributors, which I think really blows.
> > 
> > So if i understand what your saying you don't like that 
> fact the Zend had
> > write an (very) good engine for PHP4 and now is making some 
> money with
> > it??
> > 
> > Don't forget Zend is a commercial company that is doing a 
> lot for the open
> > source community. Without them you didn't had PHP4!
> > 
> > Without all the Zend optimalisations (but with the free 
> Zend Optimzer
> > (You've installed it, right?!)) PHP4 has a good 
> performance. With the
> > money they make with their products like Zend Encoder, Zend 
> Cache, etc
> > they can continue developing on the Zend Engine.
> > 
> > They don't force you to but their products. They only say 
> that they can
> > really speed up your code.
> > Companies where i work (a official gold microsoft partner  
> ;-(  ) has also
> > bought the Zend products.
> > 
> > 

Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Dave Mertens]

On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 11:57:13AM -0400, medvitz wrote:
> The concern I have is that they sell perfoamance enhancing products.  
> Because they are selling these, I worry that performance in the base Zend 
> engine will not be / is not a primary concern.  I think that performance 
> should be a top priority for the 'base' engine.  People outside of Zend are 
> contributing a good amount of time to creating extensions, writing PEAR 
> modules, and promoting PHP, and , in my opinion , these efforts are being 
> used by Zend who are holding back on performance.  
> 
> Yes... the optimizer is free.  But it doesn't always have to be.
> 
> I like PHP, I use PHP, I use PHP for clients work, so yes I make money 
> off of PHP.  I expect that the Zend psople can as well, without holding 
> back on the community that helped them get where they are today.
Even PHP3 has a Zend engine (0.5). Most developers these days started with Version 3.
PHP2/FI wasn't mature enough for companies.

For companies where i work for it's very important that there's a company behind PHP 
like Zend. Zend is now writing ZE2. They continueing the work they all doing for years 
now.
Further the API  of the Zend Engine is open. So everybody could write a 
program/library like Zend Accelerator.

The only problem is that the products of Zend have a very low price in comparisment to 
other development platforms. Writing them yourself would costs you more.

I even think that without Zend there wasn't PHP anymore because they're not only 
writing the heart of PHP, they also sets the goals for PHP. At that part is very 
important of companies.

And they're not forcing you to buy their products. But most companies do, because it 
improves the engine.
And maybe if Zend is making enough money with PHP that can actually really promote PHP 
as a mature language like Microsoft and Sun are doing.

But i don't want to critismize you. I understand you completely. Because for my own 
site i can't eforth the Zend encoder and Accelerator. And than i wish that those 
products where for free. But noting is this world comes for free. Not even open-source 
products. Oh yes, the products are free. As far as i know there arent programs for PHP 
like there are for ASP/JAVA. 
Brainbench was offering some certificates for PHP4 developers. 

What i'm trying so say is simple. PHP needs a 'commercial' boost and Zend is providing 
it. Because like is said in other threads, PHP is now mainlt a tool for dynamic 
webpages. But these days customers want web applications like CMS systems and 
integrated back-ends with other companies and not only a homepage with some dynamic 
features like a guest book.
All major benefits that PHP had on Microsoft ASP is now gone with .NET C# and VB are 
providing the same functionality as PHP is.

I really have to fight within the company i work to keep PHP. Do you know what PHP 
really needs? Good native XML and SOAP support.. 
Without that it's very hard to convince my boss that PHP is the right tool for the job.

I develop for a living. And i'm not only programming in PHP. I do also Java, VB, C# 
and a little C. And i have to say that even with the high license costs of Microsoft, 
they are providing a solid developer base with good support from MSDN and Technet. You 
can't around it and that is why my boss want to use .NET. Ever saw an ad for PHP?? You 
don't read of PHP.
If you're not following the PHP mailingslists you know shit..


> I've got some biases here.  I was a subscriber, for a time to the 
> developer's pachage that they had towards the beginning.  For $600 a year I 
> got the Encoder, the debug server and 2 client licenses.  They had a pay by 
> month option and I selected this, as my company wasn't going to reimburse 
> me for this expense.  When my bank got bought and I had to get use a new 
> card to keep up on the payments no one could do it.  I emailed the people 
> who handled the credit card transactiosn, and I emailed Zend.  I got no 
> responsse what-so-ever, but a lot of emails telling me they couldn't bill 
> my card (all of which I replied to asking how to change my card info).  I'm 
> glad you have had good expeirience with them, 'cause I haven't.  And the 
> package that made the mose sense to me, they no longer offer.  
I don't do payments for my company. I'm not allowed to do that ;-(

But i have a boss that really have an open mind. He tries several things. And because 
i said that i wanted the Zend accelerator because it's speed up the web application he 
bought it immediatly.
But we build PHP sites without the Zend tools.

The Zend tools are only installed on the production server. That way we're forced to 
write
efficiant code. And because our developing enviroment is quick (we use single Pentium 
3 500 processor with 128 MB of ram and IDE harddisk, normal desktops thus..) the 
productions sites are really flying.

And i'm really sorry that Zend let you down with your creditcard payment.

Dave Merten

Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[medvitz]

I don't really have an issue with the Zend people making money from their 
products.  

The concern I have is that they sell perfoamance enhancing products.  
Because they are selling these, I worry that performance in the base Zend 
engine will not be / is not a primary concern.  I think that performance 
should be a top priority for the 'base' engine.  People outside of Zend are 
contributing a good amount of time to creating extensions, writing PEAR 
modules, and promoting PHP, and , in my opinion , these efforts are being 
used by Zend who are holding back on performance.  

Yes... the optimizer is free.  But it doesn't always have to be.

I like PHP, I use PHP, I use PHP for clients work, so yes I make money 
off of PHP.  I expect that the Zend psople can as well, without holding 
back on the community that helped them get where they are today.


I've got some biases here.  I was a subscriber, for a time to the 
developer's pachage that they had towards the beginning.  For $600 a year I 
got the Encoder, the debug server and 2 client licenses.  They had a pay by 
month option and I selected this, as my company wasn't going to reimburse 
me for this expense.  When my bank got bought and I had to get use a new 
card to keep up on the payments no one could do it.  I emailed the people 
who handled the credit card transactiosn, and I emailed Zend.  I got no 
responsse what-so-ever, but a lot of emails telling me they couldn't bill 
my card (all of which I replied to asking how to change my card info).  I'm 
glad you have had good expeirience with them, 'cause I haven't.  And the 
package that made the mose sense to me, they no longer offer.  


Medvitz


Dave Mertens wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 07:32:47PM -0400, medvitz wrote:
>> The issue I have with PHP is that the people in charge have reasons for
>> not
>> implementing performance enhancements in the base code.  They charge a
>> fair
>> amount for add-ons that increases performance drastically.  I could
>> actually argue that extensibility and performance on the back end aren't
>> what they should be for this reason.
>> 
>> Not that I want to make enemies here, but I think this is a realistic
>> criticism.  Not to mention that the Qt license that is used prevents
>> anyone from making extensions and selling them w/o an additional license
>> from the
>> Zend people.  So they are able to make money off of the hard work of all
>> of the module contributors, which I think really blows.
> 
> So if i understand what your saying you don't like that fact the Zend had
> write an (very) good engine for PHP4 and now is making some money with
> it??
> 
> Don't forget Zend is a commercial company that is doing a lot for the open
> source community. Without them you didn't had PHP4!
> 
> Without all the Zend optimalisations (but with the free Zend Optimzer
> (You've installed it, right?!)) PHP4 has a good performance. With the
> money they make with their products like Zend Encoder, Zend Cache, etc
> they can continue developing on the Zend Engine.
> 
> They don't force you to but their products. They only say that they can
> really speed up your code.
> Companies where i work (a official gold microsoft partner  ;-(  ) has also
> bought the Zend products.
> 
> My boss thinks the Zend products are very cheap in comparisment with
> Microsoft products.
> 
> Microsoft is doing the same thing. They provide you with a 'free' IIS
> webserver, but they have also products that enhance IIS like Commerce
> Server, Content Server, etc.
> 
> The fact that a commercial company like Zend is working on PHP is for a
> large number of companies very important. Most open-source projects don't
> have a proper helpdesk. Zend is providing a very good helpdesk.
> 
> But all this have two sides. While we (PHP developers) build upon PHP4,
> and make money with the applications we write with it. And Zend is making
> money with other Zend products and they make sure PHP is good enough for
> companies.
> 
> So don't trap Zend into the ground. Because of them you can program OOP in
> PHP!
> 
> That all from me..
> 
> Dave Mertens


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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Dave Mertens]

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 07:32:47PM -0400, medvitz wrote:
> The issue I have with PHP is that the people in charge have reasons for not 
> implementing performance enhancements in the base code.  They charge a fair 
> amount for add-ons that increases performance drastically.  I could 
> actually argue that extensibility and performance on the back end aren't 
> what they should be for this reason.
> 
> Not that I want to make enemies here, but I think this is a realistic 
> criticism.  Not to mention that the Qt license that is used prevents anyone 
> from making extensions and selling them w/o an additional license from the 
> Zend people.  So they are able to make money off of the hard work of all of 
> the module contributors, which I think really blows.

So if i understand what your saying you don't like that fact the Zend had write an 
(very) 
good engine for PHP4 and now is making some money with it??

Don't forget Zend is a commercial company that is doing a lot for the open source 
community.
Without them you didn't had PHP4! 

Without all the Zend optimalisations (but with the free Zend Optimzer (You've 
installed it, right?!)) PHP4 has a good performance.
With the money they make with their products like Zend Encoder, Zend Cache, etc they 
can continue developing on the Zend Engine.

They don't force you to but their products. They only say that they can really speed 
up your code.
Companies where i work (a official gold microsoft partner  ;-(  ) has also bought the 
Zend products.

My boss thinks the Zend products are very cheap in comparisment with Microsoft 
products.

Microsoft is doing the same thing. They provide you with a 'free' IIS webserver, but 
they
have also products that enhance IIS like Commerce Server, Content Server, etc.

The fact that a commercial company like Zend is working on PHP is for a large number 
of companies very important.
Most open-source projects don't have a proper helpdesk. Zend is providing a very good 
helpdesk. 

But all this have two sides. While we (PHP developers) build upon PHP4, and make money 
with the applications we write with it. And Zend is making money with other Zend 
products and they make sure PHP is good enough for companies.

So don't trap Zend into the ground. Because of them you can program OOP in PHP!

That all from me..

Dave Mertens

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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[medvitz]

I've been looking at some of the files on LXR.php.net when I noticed that 
as of Dec, Zend is no longer using the QPL.  I apologize for posting not 
knowing all of the facts, but the QPL license is included in the 4.1.2 
source package, and that is what I was using as a basis.


Medvitz



Medvitz wrote:

> The issue I have with PHP is that the people in charge have reasons for
> not
> implementing performance enhancements in the base code.  They charge a
> fair
> amount for add-ons that increases performance drastically.  I could
> actually argue that extensibility and performance on the back end aren't
> what they should be for this reason.
> 
> Not that I want to make enemies here, but I think this is a realistic
> criticism.  Not to mention that the Qt license that is used prevents
> anyone from making extensions and selling them w/o an additional license
> from the
> Zend people.  So they are able to make money off of the hard work of all
> of the module contributors, which I think really blows.
> 
> I really enjoy using PHP.  I think the authors have done a commendible
> job.
>  I just wish that it was more open.
> 
> Medvitz
> 
> 
> Ken Egervari wrote:
> 
>> Although your arguments make sense for speed, this is tradeoff that many
>> programmers are willing to take.  As for taking "tons of time to load",
>> although I have noticed a large slowdown, it's not critical and nothing a
>> better server can't solve if it does become critical.
>> 
>> I'd rather develop a website in half the time and spend more money on a
>> server than do it slower and harder.  No one wants to work hard.
>> 
>> As for the data layer, I think simple calls like that don't constitute a
>> data layer at all.  You still might have database code all over the
>> website, and many of the related things like
>> adding/updating/deleting/searching/whatever on a single entity can be
>> across
>> several pages.  In my library, I have a concept called "Data Access
>> Objects".  It makes development of the data layer very easy - almost
>> mindless as a matter of fact - and I can actually create an entire tier
>> that
>> completely decouples database calls from application logic completely.
>> This is something pear doesn't do and I think this is essential for
>> webpages because a) they need to change all the time b) database code,
>> php code and html code on the same page is messy c) this is how large
>> enterprise systems need to be built.
>> 
>> I think that should give you an explanation on why PHP still needs to
>> develop.  If not, then PHP should outright states its goals and
>> intentions to everyone because people like myself who are waiting for
>> things to move forward (because we have a lot of code invested into the
>> language already)
>> want to move forward with it.  That just isn't happening from my point of
>> view.
>> 
>> To argue your point about performance, look at any emerging technology in
>> the past.  History has shown that coming up with the technical solution
>> that
>> works and solves people's problem is essential.  Once something is in
>> place,
>> then we start looking at how to speed it up.  But if we don't even get to
>> the point of it working and solving people's problems, then we aren't
>> going anyway.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Ken
>> 
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Ilia A." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "Ken Egervari" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Richard Heyes"
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 5:48 PM
>> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform
>> 
>> 
>>> Ken,
>>>
>>> Many classes and for Java & .NET and even php very own PEAR are
>>> libraries
>> of
>>> bloat. They offer some functionality and in exchange take away
>>> tremendous amount of extra resources. That is not to say all those
>>> classes and
>> libraries
>>> are written poorly, many are not, however no matter how good is a
>>> wrapper
>> it
>>> will always add slowdowns.
>>> In php (at least 4.X) loading large classes to memory is VERY memory
>> cosuming
>>> and loading huge libraries will put a large strain on system with medium
>> to
>>> heavy use.
>>> Most people do not need PEAR or other assistance libraries for most of
>> their
>>> code, especially in PHP where standard functions are VERY easy to use
>>> and the

Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[medvitz]

The issue I have with PHP is that the people in charge have reasons for not 
implementing performance enhancements in the base code.  They charge a fair 
amount for add-ons that increases performance drastically.  I could 
actually argue that extensibility and performance on the back end aren't 
what they should be for this reason.

Not that I want to make enemies here, but I think this is a realistic 
criticism.  Not to mention that the Qt license that is used prevents anyone 
from making extensions and selling them w/o an additional license from the 
Zend people.  So they are able to make money off of the hard work of all of 
the module contributors, which I think really blows.

I really enjoy using PHP.  I think the authors have done a commendible job. 
 I just wish that it was more open.

Medvitz


Ken Egervari wrote:

> Although your arguments make sense for speed, this is tradeoff that many
> programmers are willing to take.  As for taking "tons of time to load",
> although I have noticed a large slowdown, it's not critical and nothing a
> better server can't solve if it does become critical.
> 
> I'd rather develop a website in half the time and spend more money on a
> server than do it slower and harder.  No one wants to work hard.
> 
> As for the data layer, I think simple calls like that don't constitute a
> data layer at all.  You still might have database code all over the
> website, and many of the related things like
> adding/updating/deleting/searching/whatever on a single entity can be
> across
> several pages.  In my library, I have a concept called "Data Access
> Objects".  It makes development of the data layer very easy - almost
> mindless as a matter of fact - and I can actually create an entire tier
> that
> completely decouples database calls from application logic completely. 
> This is something pear doesn't do and I think this is essential for
> webpages because a) they need to change all the time b) database code, php
> code and html code on the same page is messy c) this is how large
> enterprise systems need to be built.
> 
> I think that should give you an explanation on why PHP still needs to
> develop.  If not, then PHP should outright states its goals and intentions
> to everyone because people like myself who are waiting for things to move
> forward (because we have a lot of code invested into the language already)
> want to move forward with it.  That just isn't happening from my point of
> view.
> 
> To argue your point about performance, look at any emerging technology in
> the past.  History has shown that coming up with the technical solution
> that
> works and solves people's problem is essential.  Once something is in
> place,
> then we start looking at how to speed it up.  But if we don't even get to
> the point of it working and solving people's problems, then we aren't
> going anyway.
> 
> Regards,
> Ken
> 
> - Original Message -----
> From: "Ilia A." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Ken Egervari" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Richard Heyes"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 5:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform
> 
> 
>> Ken,
>>
>> Many classes and for Java & .NET and even php very own PEAR are libraries
> of
>> bloat. They offer some functionality and in exchange take away tremendous
>> amount of extra resources. That is not to say all those classes and
> libraries
>> are written poorly, many are not, however no matter how good is a wrapper
> it
>> will always add slowdowns.
>> In php (at least 4.X) loading large classes to memory is VERY memory
> cosuming
>> and loading huge libraries will put a large strain on system with medium
> to
>> heavy use.
>> Most people do not need PEAR or other assistance libraries for most of
> their
>> code, especially in PHP where standard functions are VERY easy to use and
>> their is a function for almost every occasion :)
>> In many cases, like with database layers you can avoid class by simply
> using:
>>
>> $db_type = 'mysql_'; or $db_type('pg_'); etc...
>> and then calling php's database manipulation functions with $db_type
> prefix.
>>
>> So, in my opinion creating class libraries is counter productive in PHP
>> enviroment. It makes sence in C & C++ to some degree where to open a
> socket
>> you need to do a good deal of work, so a class which accepts a socket &
>> domain and returns open socket may be very useful. But in PHP where
>> everything is already done for you there is little need for that IMHO.
&

Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Steve Meyers]

Well, your libraries probably don't meet the coding standards for PEAR 
right now, and would need a small amount of work to add the necessary hooks 
to make it compatible.

http://pear.php.net/faq.php#faq-2

With all that code you've got, it should be fairly trivial for you to 
become a PEAR contributor and even get your own CVS account.  It's all in 
how you approach it.  If you just come in and tell everyone that they suck, 
and your ideas and code are so much better, you'll find that most people 
will not listen to you.  If you come in and say, "Hey I've got some classes 
I've been working on, what do I have to do to contribute them to PEAR and 
get a CVS account?", you'll find that people will jump through hoops to 
help you out.

Ken Egervari wrote:

> Well, my library does compete with PEAR considering that it replaces some
> of
> their things.  My library is also open-source and I've told them they can
> add them and they never did.  In fact, I wanted that to happen since that
> would provide more tools to everyone.
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Steve Meyers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 7:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform
> 
> 
>> Ken Egervari wrote:
>>
>> > I agree with you friend. Everything is always in beta as far as I am
>> > concerned.  Everything evolves.  But PEAR has been around for how long
>> > now? I think its time it started to evolve a little faster and its
>> > goals be
>> > re-evaluated.  When PHP 5 supports a simular language like Java, there
> is
>> > going to be nothing to build from.
>> >
>>
>> So why are you making a library to compete with PEAR, instead of
>> contributing all of your classes to PEAR?  This is open source, after
>> all, you can make a difference in the development of PEAR.
>>
>> --
>> PHP Development Mailing List <http://www.php.net/>
>> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>>
>>


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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Stig S. Bakken]

On Fri, 2002-04-12 at 22:31, Ken Egervari wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I think as we go forward with PHP and as PHP 5 is nearing, shouldn't we planning on 
>developing a PHP Platform?  Basically the Java or .NET Platform - a set of stable and 
>well written class libraries in which everyone can use?  Classes that make sense for 
>every day and maybe not-so every day PHP development?  With .NET and Java out there, 
>PHP is really falling short.  It's not even efficient to develop in any more other 
>than that its tools are free.  I tried to start such an initiative with eXtremePHP, 
>but only 2 developers go so far.  We need a community to help build a large platform 
>that provides classes for everything a PHP developer might need.
> 
> Why am I saying this?  Well, looking at DOM XML, PHP still hasn't gotten it right.  
>Even though there are several great implementations out there in other languages, PHP 
>is slowly building towards those already bugged-out, well written designs.  I was 
>recently doing a project and now that PHP 4.1.2 has changed the DOM XML library 
>without making any changes to the documentation, this move seriously messed up my 
>work as well as many others.  In my case, I have to use the latest version so I had 
>to migrate a lot of code.  I know that the library was considered experimental, but 
>the design decisions were made poorly while they could have just emulated the w3c 
>bindings which were already thought out and used across the world as far as Java and 
>many other languages are concerned.  I think the PHP developers and community should 
>start moving towards a mature platform with an even larger goal in mind rather than 
>just a set of functions.  With the RAD tools provided by .NET and Jav!
a, PHP is giving less and less of a reason for capable developers to use the language 
because it really only solves the needs of HTML developers that need some dynamic 
functionality to their sites.  I guess the future is in the hands of its leaders to 
make the right calls.  It will be a test to see which calls are made.

I agree that PHP needs a platform like you mention.  Today, PHP has a
zillion extensions each providing nice functionality, but there is very
little interoperability between extensions.  For example, none of the
XML-related extensions (domxml, xslt, xml) are able to interoperate.  If
PHP had a good platform, you could take part of your DOM tree and use
the xslt extension to render it.  Not to mention the all-different
database extensions.

Wez took a great first step by implemting PHP streams.  This is the kind
of integration we need.  There are lots of other things we can do add
"sudden reusability" in many parts of PHP, such as a common C API to
database extensions, an abstracted type system that can map data more
easily between SQL databases, HTML forms, Web Services etc., flexible
exception handling and so on.

PEAR does not offer this today, but it offers the infrastructure
necessary to build and deploy such a platform (PEAR is a lot more than a
bunch of classes).

My intent is to bundle core PEAR packages into the PFC (PHP Foundation
Classes).  PFC is just the platform you are calling for.  Until now I
have focused my energy on building the PEAR infrastructure, so people
such as yourself can go ahead and make the platform.  If you already
have written a lot of code, we should definitely work together.

Today the PEAR installer is self-maintainable, it's able to update
itself from the web, which is good enough for me to be comfortable
releasing it.  PHP 4.2.0 will contain a self-maintainable PEAR
installer, and 4.3.0 will go one step further and bundle package
tarballs instead of plan .php files.

 - Stig


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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Ken Egervari]

Well, my library does compete with PEAR considering that it replaces some of
their things.  My library is also open-source and I've told them they can
add them and they never did.  In fact, I wanted that to happen since that
would provide more tools to everyone.

- Original Message -
From: "Steve Meyers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform


> Ken Egervari wrote:
>
> > I agree with you friend. Everything is always in beta as far as I am
> > concerned.  Everything evolves.  But PEAR has been around for how long
> > now? I think its time it started to evolve a little faster and its goals
> > be
> > re-evaluated.  When PHP 5 supports a simular language like Java, there
is
> > going to be nothing to build from.
> >
>
> So why are you making a library to compete with PEAR, instead of
> contributing all of your classes to PEAR?  This is open source, after all,
> you can make a difference in the development of PEAR.
>
> --
> PHP Development Mailing List <http://www.php.net/>
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>


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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Steve Meyers]

Ken Egervari wrote:

> I agree with you friend. Everything is always in beta as far as I am
> concerned.  Everything evolves.  But PEAR has been around for how long
> now? I think its time it started to evolve a little faster and its goals
> be
> re-evaluated.  When PHP 5 supports a simular language like Java, there is
> going to be nothing to build from.
> 

So why are you making a library to compete with PEAR, instead of 
contributing all of your classes to PEAR?  This is open source, after all, 
you can make a difference in the development of PEAR.

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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Markus Fischer]

Ken,

you are, like any other developer out there, very welcome to
aid in the development of PHP and any its extension; either
if you have some more sophisticated background inforamtion
about certain technologies or not.

Yet I've read all your posts; complaining about not following
e.g. w3c standard, but not telling what's exactly wrong or
not. Open Bug reports about it, clearly describing what
currently is wrong and what should be done or even
contributing to PHP might be a good idea.

welcome aboard :)

- Markus

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 04:31:28PM -0400, Ken Egervari wrote : 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I think as we go forward with PHP and as PHP 5 is nearing,
> shouldn't we planning on developing a PHP Platform?  Basically
> the Java or .NET Platform - a set of stable and well written
> class libraries in which everyone can use?  Classes that make
> sense for every day and maybe not-so every day PHP development?
> With .NET and Java out there, PHP is really falling short.
> It's not even efficient to develop in any more other than that
> its tools are free.  I tried to start such an initiative with
> eXtremePHP, but only 2 developers go so far.  We need a
> community to help build a large platform that provides classes
> for everything a PHP developer might need.
> 
> Why am I saying this?  Well, looking at DOM XML, PHP still
> hasn't gotten it right.  Even though there are several great
> implementations out there in other languages, PHP is slowly
> building towards those already bugged-out, well written
> designs.  I was recently doing a project and now that PHP 4.1.2
> has changed the DOM XML library without making any changes to
> the documentation, this move seriously messed up my work as
> well as many others.  In my case, I have to use the latest
> version so I had to migrate a lot of code.  I know that the
> library was considered experimental, but the design decisions
> were made poorly while they could have just emulated the w3c
> bindings which were already thought out and used across the
> world as far as Java and many other languages are concerned.  I
> think the PHP developers and community should start moving
> towards a mature platform with an even larger goal in mind
> rather than just a set of functions.  With the RAD tools
> provided by .NET and Java, PHP is giving less and less of a
> reason for capable developers to use the language because it
> really only solves the needs of HTML developers that need some
> dynamic functionality to their sites.  I guess the future is in
> the hands of its leaders to make the right calls.  It will be a
> test to see which calls are made.
> 
> Ken

-- 
Please always Cc to me when replying to me on the lists.
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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Ken Egervari]

I agree with you friend. Everything is always in beta as far as I 
amconcerned.  Everything evolves.  But PEAR has been around for 
how long now?I think its time it started to evolve a little faster and its 
goals bere-evaluated.  When PHP 5 supports a simular language like 
Java, there isgoing to be nothing to build from.- Original 
Message -From: "Tal Peer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: 
Friday, April 12, 2002 5:32 PMSubject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP 
Platform> From you message, it seems like PEAR is finished. PEAR 
is hardly a betaand> IMHO will never be 
'finished'.>>> Tal>> 
_> Get 
your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.>>

Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Ken Egervari]

Although your 
arguments make sense for speed, this is tradeoff that manyprogrammers are 
willing to take.  As for taking "tons of time to load",although I have 
noticed a large slowdown, it's not critical and nothing abetter server can't 
solve if it does become critical.I'd rather develop a website in half 
the time and spend more money on aserver than do it slower and harder.  
No one wants to work hard.As for the data layer, I think simple calls 
like that don't constitute adata layer at all.  You still might have 
database code all over the website,and many of the related things 
likeadding/updating/deleting/searching/whatever on a single entity can be 
acrossseveral pages.  In my library, I have a concept called "Data 
AccessObjects".  It makes development of the data layer very easy - 
almostmindless as a matter of fact - and I can actually create an entire 
tier thatcompletely decouples database calls from application logic 
completely.  Thisis something pear doesn't do and I think this is 
essential for webpagesbecause a) they need to change all the time b) 
database code, php code andhtml code on the same page is messy c) this is 
how large enterprise systemsneed to be built.I think that should 
give you an explanation on why PHP still needs todevelop.  If not, then 
PHP should outright states its goals and intentionsto everyone because 
people like myself who are waiting for things to moveforward (because we 
have a lot of code invested into the language already)want to move forward 
with it.  That just isn't happening from my point ofview.To 
argue your point about performance, look at any emerging technology inthe 
past.  History has shown that coming up with the technical solution 
thatworks and solves people's problem is essential.  Once something is 
in place,then we start looking at how to speed it up.  But if we don't 
even get tothe point of it working and solving people's problems, then we 
aren't goinganyway.Regards,Ken- Original Message 
-From: "Ilia A." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: "Ken Egervari" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; 
"Richard Heyes"<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 5:48 PMSubject: Re: [PHP-DEV] 
The PHP Platform> Ken,>> Many classes and for Java 
& .NET and even php very own PEAR are librariesof> bloat. They 
offer some functionality and in exchange take away tremendous> amount of 
extra resources. That is not to say all those classes andlibraries> 
are written poorly, many are not, however no matter how good is a 
wrapperit> will always add slowdowns.> In php (at least 4.X) 
loading large classes to memory is VERY memorycosuming> and loading 
huge libraries will put a large strain on system with mediumto> heavy 
use.> Most people do not need PEAR or other assistance libraries for most 
oftheir> code, especially in PHP where standard functions are VERY 
easy to use and> their is a function for almost every occasion :)> 
In many cases, like with database layers you can avoid class by 
simplyusing:>> $db_type = 'mysql_'; or $db_type('pg_'); 
etc...> and then calling php's database manipulation functions with 
$db_typeprefix.>> So, in my opinion creating class libraries 
is counter productive in PHP> enviroment. It makes sence in C & C++ 
to some degree where to open asocket> you need to do a good deal of 
work, so a class which accepts a socket &> domain and returns open 
socket may be very useful. But in PHP where> everything is already done 
for you there is little need for that IMHO.>> On April 12, 2002 
04:53 pm, Ken Egervari wrote:> > Hello Richard,> >> 
> I don't think people really understand me correctly.  Pear is small 
in> > comparison to the Java Platform or the .NET Framework.  My 
library> > extremephp.org is probably around 4-5 times bigger than 
PEAR and it'snot> > even close to being finished yet.  There 
could be much more to developto> > make PHP an even greater 
language to use, but it's not keeping up.> >>> 
--> Ilia Alshanetsky> FUDforum Developer> http://fud.prohost.org/forum/>

Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Ilia A.]

Ken,

Many classes and for Java & .NET and even php very own PEAR are libraries of 
bloat. They offer some functionality and in exchange take away tremendous 
amount of extra resources. That is not to say all those classes and libraries 
are written poorly, many are not, however no matter how good is a wrapper it 
will always add slowdowns. 
In php (at least 4.X) loading large classes to memory is VERY memory cosuming 
and loading huge libraries will put a large strain on system with medium to 
heavy use.
Most people do not need PEAR or other assistance libraries for most of their 
code, especially in PHP where standard functions are VERY easy to use and 
their is a function for almost every occasion :)
In many cases, like with database layers you can avoid class by simply using:

$db_type = 'mysql_'; or $db_type('pg_'); etc...
and then calling php's database manipulation functions with $db_type prefix.

So, in my opinion creating class libraries is counter productive in PHP 
enviroment. It makes sence in C & C++ to some degree where to open a socket 
you need to do a good deal of work, so a class which accepts a socket & 
domain and returns open socket may be very useful. But in PHP where 
everything is already done for you there is little need for that IMHO.

On April 12, 2002 04:53 pm, Ken Egervari wrote:
> Hello Richard,
>
> I don't think people really understand me correctly.  Pear is small in
> comparison to the Java Platform or the .NET Framework.  My library
> extremephp.org is probably around 4-5 times bigger than PEAR and it's not
> even close to being finished yet.  There could be much more to develop to
> make PHP an even greater language to use, but it's not keeping up.
>

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Ilia Alshanetsky
FUDforum Developer
http://fud.prohost.org/forum/

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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Tal Peer]

>From you message, it seems like PEAR is finished. PEAR is hardly a beta and 
IMHO will never be 'finished'.


Tal

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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Ken Egervari]

Hello Richard,

I don't think people really understand me correctly.  Pear is small in
comparison to the Java Platform or the .NET Framework.  My library
extremephp.org is probably around 4-5 times bigger than PEAR and it's not
even close to being finished yet.  There could be much more to develop to
make PHP an even greater language to use, but it's not keeping up.

Ken

- Original Message -
From: "Richard Heyes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Ken Egervari" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform


> "Ken Egervari" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > I think as we go forward with PHP and as PHP 5 is nearing, shouldn't we
> planning
> > on developing a PHP Platform?  Basically the Java or .NET Platform - a
set
> of
> > stable and well written class libraries in which everyone can use?
Classes
> that
> > make sense for every day and maybe not-so every day PHP development?
With
> .NET
> > and Java out there, PHP is really falling short.  It's not even
efficient
> to
> > develop in any more other than that its tools are free.  I tried to
start
> such
> > an initiative with eXtremePHP, but only 2 developers go so far.  We need
a
> > community to help build a large platform that provides classes for
> everything a
> > PHP developer might need.
>
> http://pear.php.net/
>
> --
> Richard Heyes
>
>


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Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Richard Heyes]

"Ken Egervari" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hello everyone,
> 
> I think as we go forward with PHP and as PHP 5 is nearing, shouldn't we
planning
> on developing a PHP Platform?  Basically the Java or .NET Platform - a set
of
> stable and well written class libraries in which everyone can use?  Classes
that
> make sense for every day and maybe not-so every day PHP development?  With
.NET
> and Java out there, PHP is really falling short.  It's not even efficient
to
> develop in any more other than that its tools are free.  I tried to start
such
> an initiative with eXtremePHP, but only 2 developers go so far.  We need a
> community to help build a large platform that provides classes for
everything a
> PHP developer might need.

http://pear.php.net/

-- 
Richard Heyes


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[PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform

[Ken Egervari]

Hello everyone,
 
I think as we go forward with PHP and as PHP 5 is 
nearing, shouldn't we planning on developing a PHP Platform?  Basically the 
Java or .NET Platform - a set of stable and well written class libraries in 
which everyone can use?  Classes that make sense for every day and maybe 
not-so every day PHP development?  With .NET and Java out there, PHP is 
really falling short.  It's not even efficient to develop in any more other 
than that its tools are free.  I tried to start such an initiative with 
eXtremePHP, but only 2 developers go so far.  We need a community to help 
build a large platform that provides classes for everything a PHP developer 
might need.
 
Why am I saying this?  Well, looking at DOM 
XML, PHP still hasn't gotten it right.  Even though there are several great 
implementations out there in other languages, PHP is slowly building towards 
those already bugged-out, well written designs.  I was recently doing a 
project and now that PHP 4.1.2 has changed the DOM XML library without making 
any changes to the documentation, this move seriously messed up my work as well 
as many others.  In my case, I have to use the latest version so I had to 
migrate a lot of code.  I know that the library was considered 
experimental, but the design decisions were made poorly while they could have 
just emulated the w3c bindings which were already thought out and used across 
the world as far as Java and many other languages are concerned.  I think 
the PHP developers and community should start moving towards a mature platform 
with an even larger goal in mind rather than just a set of functions.  With 
the RAD tools provided by .NET and Java, PHP is giving less and less of a reason 
for capable developers to use the language because it really only solves the 
needs of HTML developers that need some dynamic functionality to their 
sites.  I guess the future is in the hands of its leaders to make the right 
calls.  It will be a test to see which calls are made.
 
Ken