Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
At 07:55 20/08/2002, Brad LaFountain wrote: You as a Zend owner who's business could be very propitable for Zend2 success or you as a php developer Brad, This is CLEARLY as PHP developers. We happen to have quite a bit of experience in getting the userbase to convert from one version to another - with PHP 3 and PHP 4. Most of the developers today were not involved with PHP around the time this happened (not all, of course). I said numerous times - having two major versions out there is a support nightmare we managed to avoid by succeeding to move the userbase from one version to another in a relatively short timeframe. People here repeatedly said they long for some 'steering', and steering is 'political', because technically, everyone is competent. Of course, if this steering comes from people who just talk (without mentioning names, only initials, ML) then the developer community will reject it immediately. We are, however, talking from at least a bit of experience. Also, I'm don't think Zend's business could even benefit from ZE2's success, other than indirectly by improving PHP's success, which is what we're all interested in anyway. It's ok that this is you suspect conflict of interests, but it just doesn't make any sense. But that's minor - the fact we did our best to do the same in the previous versions should give you an idea about why this is so important. The main point with this issue was *perception*, not the feature itself. Yes, a small feature like this can give people a small push in the right direction when they consider whether to move or not. We won't have any KILLER reasons for non-OO people to move, so it would have to be a number of smaller ones. Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
-Original Message- From: Andi Gutmans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 6:26 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1 At 12:30 PM 8/19/2002 +0200, you wrote: On Mon, Aug 19, 2002 at 11:45:30AM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: How often do you call a function that gives you your current backtrace in C? In my many years of C experience, I would have to say that the accurate answer is -0- times. You really should compare apples with apples... you often said in the past that you don't write php-apps, you write php. i do write php-apps, and debug_backtrace() is one of the most useful features if your app reaches an unexpected failure (= likely a bug). right now i load some zend-extension on my devel boxes - but (as you know), the unexpected often only happens on productions systems. my production systems are soo loaded that i cannot afford to load the zend-extension on there. so post-mortem analysis is much harder there, and you know how hard it sometimes is to reporduce bugs (remember how often i spend hours just to sent you guys the shortest-possible testcase for bugs?) but - in a way you are right, i'm comparing apples and pies. the debug_backtrace() for me is like calling abort() in my c-code to be able to inspect the core-file and see where things went wrong. anyway, i don't thing we are discussing the usefullness of debug_backtrace() here. i think andi will look over the one critical line of the patch - if he agrees that this change is ok, i will go ahead and commit. I still think it shouldn't go in. This is the only feature in Engine 2 which might make non-OOP people convert. Once this isn't in Engine 2 we don't have a carrot for them. Why can't you respect this way of thinking? Especially as I wrote the code? You're basically saying screw them because I'll commit it anyway. I think people using wide-spread OS software will be forced to use ZE2. Take a look at Sebastian Bergmanns openTracker oder the Horde guys. They always use the latest available features of PHP. These are just two examples for OS projects that force people to upgrade their PHP to a recent version. Regards, Sebastian Nohn -- +49 170 471 8105 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.nohn.net/ PGP Key Available - Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/wishlist/3HYH6NR8ZI0WI/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Andi Gutmans wrote: I still think it shouldn't go in. This is the only feature in Engine 2 which might make non-OOP people convert. Once this isn't in Engine 2 we don't have a carrot for them. I guess you want PHP 5 only to have ZE2 as the only major change? Then let's forget 4.3.0 and make it PHP 5 with ZE2. Then there is something else too that might make people more eager to update..:) (And we'd have one less QA month in front of us. :) I'm +1 for getting this backtrace thing in PHP asap. It's more useful for my work than any of that OOP stuff ZE2 has. And I'd rather have it now than wait indefinately for PHP 5 to be released. --Jani -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Andi Gutmans wrote: I still think it shouldn't go in. This is the only feature in Engine 2 which might make non-OOP people convert. Once this isn't in Engine 2 we don't have a carrot for them. [..] I'm +1 for getting this backtrace thing in PHP asap. It's more useful for my work than any of that OOP stuff ZE2 has. And I'd rather have it now than wait indefinately for PHP 5 to be released. --Jani If the code wont be committed to the main PHP 4.x download, can a patch be provided for those of us gagging for backtracing in our php development. The amount of time it would save me is phenomninal. Today I found a bug in my 5 meg (accumulative) scripts, all of which use a $mysql-query() method. The error shows up as being thrown in the query, but I have no idea out of the tens of thousands of lines of code which called it. A backtrace in this case would be like gold dust. Could we not just release a patch to the people that want it (well, need it!), and leave the official implementation until PHP5? That way the carrot remains, but nothing is held back from the people who desperatly want it. -- Dan Hardiker [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] ADAM Software Systems Engineer First Creative Ltd -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
--- Zeev Suraski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 07:55 20/08/2002, Brad LaFountain wrote: You as a Zend owner who's business could be very propitable for Zend2 success or you as a php developer Brad, This is CLEARLY as PHP developers. We happen to have quite a bit of experience in getting the userbase to convert from one version to another - with PHP 3 and PHP 4. Most of the developers today were not involved with PHP around the time this happened (not all, of course). I said numerous times - having two major versions out there is a support nightmare we managed to avoid by succeeding to move the userbase from one version to another in a relatively short timeframe. Ok this experience you are talking about is converting php3 = php4 correct? Well how many people are were using php3 at that time? Siginifntly less? The conversion from php3 to php4 offered a more stable faster scripting language all around with more extensions more webserver support builtin session support etc etc. The conversion from 3 to 4 was a really obvious one. Ok now php is installed on how many million servers? It doesn't matter how many features you offer php4 isn't going to go away. Its like saying that apache 1.3 is going to go away. So we are stuck with the 2 major versions with or without debug_backtrace. Now keeping debug_backtrace outta zend1 may cohearse a few people to move to zend2 but how many more people could benifit from it in zend1. The ammount of time arugment till zend2 is released should have some berring if debug_backtrace being included in zend1. Besides whos to say that adding debug_backtrace now to 4.3 won't steer more people to php instead of other envrionments. We still need a carrot for people to convert to php ingeneral not just convering our current userbase to zend2. I really see what you and andi are saying here but I feel (I could be wrong) that the debug_backtrace won't keep zend1 around any longer than it will already be. Me personally I won't upgrade my servers running zend1. I'll probally only install zend2 on a differenet installation or on new servers. Holding back stuff like this is extremly frustrating to me and many others. - Brad __ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
At 17:21 20/08/2002, Brad LaFountain wrote: Ok this experience you are talking about is converting php3 = php4 correct? Both PHP/FI 2 = PHP 3 and PHP 3 = PHP 4 Well how many people are were using php3 at that time? Siginifntly less? The conversion from php3 to php4 offered a more stable faster scripting language all around with more extensions more webserver support builtin session support etc etc. The conversion from 3 to 4 was a really obvious one. No Brad, it wasn't. PHP 3 was already in use by over a million web sites when 4 came out. That's an insanely large number. Please, you weren't around back then, trust me when I tell you it wasn't easy at all to make this conversion happen. Just convincing the developer community to put the focus on the 4 CVS took months. The fact that we sent out a clear message that new features (and this IS a new feature) were going to be included in 4, and 4 only, later helped to get the developer community to upgrade. Ok now php is installed on how many million servers? Comparing apples and apples, we're talking about approximately 6 million I think. Significantly larger, but same order of magnitude. It doesn't matter how many features you offer php4 isn't going to go away. The same could be said about PHP 3. Do you have any idea what a large number *1 million domains* is? Hell, how about Windows 95, or NT4, which were all over the place. Who uses them anymore? Its like saying that apache 1.3 is going to go away. No, it's not. Let's compare apples and apples. If Apache 1.4 came out, then there are good chances that Apache 1.3 would have died, in the same way 1.2 is effectively dead, even though it was on millions and millions of servers. 2.0 is a rewrite with SERIOUS changes and issues, and it's highly debatable whether the gain from it is worth the price. See my previous post regarding this comparison... Besides whos to say that adding debug_backtrace now to 4.3 won't steer more people to php instead of other envrionments. I'm willing to be the first person to say this if no one beats me to it... Such a featurelet steering people to choose one technology/platform over the other? We still need a carrot for people to convert to php ingeneral not just convering our current userbase to zend2. I really see what you and andi are saying here but I feel (I could be wrong) that the debug_backtrace won't keep zend1 around any longer than it will already be. Me personally I won't upgrade my servers running zend1. I'll probally only install zend2 on a differenet installation or on new servers. Holding back stuff like this is extremly frustrating to me and many others. You won't upgrade even in a year's time, or even 1.5 year's time, when all new features, and at some point, security fixes, are available for it? That is my point, Brad, exactly. We barely have enough manpower to maintain one version, you seriously think we can maintain two? Every carrot to encourage migration, even if it's a minicarrot, should be used. By the way, if you really don't intend to upgrade to take advantage of new features and fixes, I'm willing to bet that these boxes are static boxes with legacy apps that won't include active development. As the feature in question is debugging/development related, I can't see how it will be useful in that setup. Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
First of all I wanna just say that I'm just stating my opnion. You seem to be getting angry. Im not trying to say your wrong and I'm right. Please don't take it like that. --- Zeev Suraski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 17:21 20/08/2002, Brad LaFountain wrote: Ok this experience you are talking about is converting php3 = php4 correct? Both PHP/FI 2 = PHP 3 and PHP 3 = PHP 4 Well how many people are were using php3 at that time? Siginifntly less? The conversion from php3 to php4 offered a more stable faster scripting language all around with more extensions more webserver support builtin session support etc etc. The conversion from 3 to 4 was a really obvious one. No Brad, it wasn't. PHP 3 was already in use by over a million web sites when 4 came out. That's an insanely large number. Please, you weren't around back then, trust me when I tell you it wasn't easy at all to make this conversion happen. Just convincing the developer community to put the focus on the 4 CVS took months. The fact that we sent out a clear message that new features (and this IS a new feature) were going to be included in 4, and 4 only, later helped to get the developer community to upgrade. Ok now php is installed on how many million servers? Comparing apples and apples, we're talking about approximately 6 million I think. Significantly larger, but same order of magnitude. It doesn't matter how many features you offer php4 isn't going to go away. The same could be said about PHP 3. Do you have any idea what a large number *1 million domains* is? Hell, how about Windows 95, or NT4, which were all over the place. Who uses them anymore? I know pepole who use 95 and NT, hell we still have alot of them in my office and you know MS is still supporting them. Its like saying that apache 1.3 is going to go away. No, it's not. Let's compare apples and apples. If Apache 1.4 came out, then there are good chances that Apache 1.3 would have died, in the same way 1.2 is effectively dead, even though it was on millions and millions of servers. 2.0 is a rewrite with SERIOUS changes and issues, and it's highly debatable whether the gain from it is worth the price. See my previous post regarding this comparison... Well zend2 also has some serious changes and it introduces some bc issues. Maybe not major ones but it does introduce some. Besides whos to say that adding debug_backtrace now to 4.3 won't steer more people to php instead of other envrionments. I'm willing to be the first person to say this if no one beats me to it... Such a featurelet steering people to choose one technology/platform over the other? In one case ive heard someone didn't choose php becuase it doesn't support MI. Now ive heard this from a not very smart programmer but that was the decision. I know that thats absoulty obsurde but something like php doesn't support backtraces may or maynot lean someone twards php. I konw this isn't the majority but maybe a handfull. We still need a carrot for people to convert to php ingeneral not just convering our current userbase to zend2. I really see what you and andi are saying here but I feel (I could be wrong) that the debug_backtrace won't keep zend1 around any longer than it will already be. Me personally I won't upgrade my servers running zend1. I'll probally only install zend2 on a differenet installation or on new servers. Holding back stuff like this is extremly frustrating to me and many others. You won't upgrade even in a year's time, or even 1.5 year's time, when all new features, and at some point, security fixes, are available for it? That is my point, Brad, exactly. We barely have enough manpower to maintain one version, you seriously think we can maintain two? Every carrot to encourage migration, even if it's a minicarrot, should be used. By the way, if you really don't intend to upgrade to take advantage of new features and fixes, I'm willing to bet that these boxes are static boxes with legacy apps that won't include active development. As the feature in question is debugging/development related, I can't see how it will be useful in that setup. They would be semi-static boxes im sure there will be features and fixes that would be done on them and debug_backtrace would help in that effort. Obvisouly we all have our own opnion I wanted to state mine not get in a big argument about this. I do see your point, as a zend2 advocate, and im sure you see mine too, as a php user who wants debug_backtrace. So what to do, do you just call the shots or do we have an offical vote? - brad __ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
[..] Besides whos to say that adding debug_backtrace now to 4.3 won't steer more people to php instead of other envrionments. I'm willing to be the first person to say this if no one beats me to it... Such a featurelet steering people to choose one technology/platform over the other? In one case ive heard someone didn't choose php becuase it doesn't support MI. Now ive heard this from a not very smart programmer but that was the decision. I know that thats absoulty obsurde but something like php doesn't support backtraces may or maynot lean someone twards php. I konw this isn't the majority but maybe a handfull. Ive taken systems which I would have prefered to have done in PHP away from PHP (in that case I moved to Java for the stack tracing - because the code was used so much inside itself it was impossible to bug trace - especialy when the code was evaling heh). PHP is my forte and I would have prefered to do it with the language I know best and love. However - purely based on not having a backtrace I had to move. NOTE: At the time I was unaware of the existance of anything that could be plugged into PHP to do this... and this was 5 months ago. However, regardless of time frame - fact is that I moved because of the lack of a feature... one that is availiable to us, but were not putting in out of politics. [..] Obvisouly we all have our own opnion I wanted to state mine not get in a big argument about this. I do see your point, as a zend2 advocate, and im sure you see mine too, as a php user who wants debug_backtrace. So what to do, do you just call the shots or do we have an offical vote? If there is a vote, Im +1 on the idea of a backtrace into the earliest PHP release possible. -- Dan Hardiker [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] ADAM Software Systems Engineer First Creative Ltd -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
At 18:45 20/08/2002, Brad LaFountain wrote: First of all I wanna just say that I'm just stating my opnion. You seem to be getting angry. Im not trying to say your wrong and I'm right. Please don't take it like that. I'm not angry at all :) Obvisouly we all have our own opnion I wanted to state mine not get in a big argument about this. I do see your point, as a zend2 advocate, and im sure you see mine too, as a php user who wants debug_backtrace. So what to do, do you just call the shots or do we have an offical vote? I've never been keen on votes since we don't have any rules of voting anyway. It's Thies's call, I'll live with either call. I just hope that if this feature finds itself in 4.x, this lengthy thread will at least prevent other features from being backported. Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
Obvisouly we all have our own opnion I wanted to state mine not get in a big argument about this. I do see your point, as a zend2 advocate, and im sure you see mine too, as a php user who wants debug_backtrace. So what to do, do you just call the shots or do we have an offical vote? I've never been keen on votes since we don't have any rules of voting anyway. It's Thies's call, I'll live with either call. I just hope that if this feature finds itself in 4.x, this lengthy thread will at least prevent other features from being backported. I dont think anyone on this list, or in the PHP community is trying to make ZE1 a clone of ZE2 via backporting. This is a pretty unique case where a feature of ZE2 deserves backporting due to its immense benifits to the active community. If there was 1 feature, and 1 feature alone I could choose from ZE2 to backport, this would be it. I can gaurentee it will make christmas come early for many top end PHP developers coding the more advanced systems. -- Dan Hardiker [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] ADAM Software Systems Engineer First Creative Ltd -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
I still think it shouldn't go in. This is the only feature in Engine 2 which might make non-OOP people convert. Once this isn't in Engine 2 we don't have a carrot for them. Why can't you respect this way of thinking? Especially as I wrote the code? You're basically saying screw them because I'll commit it anyway. Guys, could we please take a more realistic look at things? People will convert to PHP 5 when it becomes the stable version and development has shifted completely to it. The simple fact that we don't have the resources to support multiple versions will force this shift. People will submit bug reports or feature requests and end up being told that their bug is fixed in PHP 5. However, if people are happy with PHP 4, don't need support and everything just works, perfect, it is not our job to force anything on anybody. We should not be talking about carrots here, and Thies is not saying screw you to you. He wants to help PHP users today. We have a feature that doesn't destabilize anything or slow anything down as far as I can tell, and would be very useful to a whole bunch of users today. If that single point is not more important than anything else, then we are getting completely offtrack here. -Rasmus -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
At 19:35 20/08/2002, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: We should not be talking about carrots here, and Thies is not saying screw you to you. He wants to help PHP users today. That almost sounds like a Microsoft tagline :) Come on, you know what he meant. If Andi didn't implement this efficient approach (which was not obvious, as the years that passed without it can prove), there are at least good chances that Thies wouldn't have the option of 'helping PHP users today' (the thing about algorithms is that you can't really say whether one is simple to come up with or not unless you came up with it). Andi feels that considering that it's his code, using it disregarding his objection is a slap in the face. Not a serious one, not something he'll remember forever, but still, a slap in the face. We have a feature that doesn't destabilize anything or slow anything down as far as I can tell, and would be very useful to a whole bunch of users today. If that single point is not more important than anything else, then we are getting completely offtrack here. I disagree. Exactly the same could be said about sessions in the PHP 4 days, and a host of other features. We have to keep the roadmap in mind, and not only think about today, but also about tomorrow. (to clarify, I personally gave up on this particular issue and am fed up with it, but as I said, if this thread at least helped to prevent other stuff from being backported and got people to realize that shifting priorities is right around the corner, then maybe it was worth it). Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
We have a feature that doesn't destabilize anything or slow anything down as far as I can tell, and would be very useful to a whole bunch of users today. If that single point is not more important than anything else, then we are getting completely offtrack here. I disagree. Exactly the same could be said about sessions in the PHP 4 days, and a host of other features. We have to keep the roadmap in mind, and not only think about today, but also about tomorrow. If you could explain to me why holding back a useful feature that could help a lot of users today is somehow better for these users, then you might be able to convince me. Is it because by holding it back now we can force a portion of users who are desperate for this feature to upgrade to PHP 5 before they might otherwise be ready to do so? This doesn't sound like a service to these users. -Rasmus -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
At 20:04 20/08/2002, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: If you could explain to me why holding back a useful feature that could help a lot of users today is somehow better for these users, then you might be able to convince me. Is it because by holding it back now we can force a portion of users who are desperate for this feature to upgrade to PHP 5 before they might otherwise be ready to do so? This doesn't sound like a service to these users. I've explained it numerous times in the last 48 hours, pick one of the posts :) (it definitely did not have anything to do with desperation). Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
--- Zeev Suraski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 19:35 20/08/2002, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: We should not be talking about carrots here, and Thies is not saying screw you to you. He wants to help PHP users today. That almost sounds like a Microsoft tagline :) Come on, you know what he meant. If Andi didn't implement this efficient approach (which was not obvious, as the years that passed without it can prove), there are at least good chances that Thies wouldn't have the option of 'helping PHP users today' (the thing about algorithms is that you can't really say whether one is simple to come up with or not unless you came up with it). Andi feels that considering that it's his code, using it disregarding his objection is a slap in the face. Not a serious one, not something he'll remember forever, but still, a slap in the face. I don't see it as a slap in the face it should be considered a compliment that it was written well enough to be backported. We have a feature that doesn't destabilize anything or slow anything down as far as I can tell, and would be very useful to a whole bunch of users today. If that single point is not more important than anything else, then we are getting completely offtrack here. I disagree. Exactly the same could be said about sessions in the PHP 4 days, and a host of other features. We have to keep the roadmap in mind, and not only think about today, but also about tomorrow. (to clarify, I personally gave up on this particular issue and am fed up with it, but as I said, if this thread at least helped to prevent other stuff from being backported and got people to realize that shifting priorities is right around the corner, then maybe it was worth it). ( I did get this outta this thread. ) Well I hope Thies will commit it. Im outta this thread. - Brad __ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
-Original Message- From: Zeev Suraski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 6:58 PM To: Rasmus Lerdorf Cc: Andi Gutmans; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1 with it, but as I said, if this thread at least helped to prevent other stuff from being backported and got people to realize that shifting priorities is right around the corner, then maybe it was worth it). On the one side it like the idea that there is a code-freeze and only bug-fixes are applied to get a version of PHP that works as expected, on the other hand i very much dislike the idea that useful features are held back for political reasons. But a code-freeze will not happen and as youself said, it's impossible to take care for two major releases. Regards, Sebastian Nohn -- +49 170 471 8105 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.nohn.net/ PGP Key Available - Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/wishlist/3HYH6NR8ZI0WI/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
At 09:55 PM 8/19/2002 -0700, Brad LaFountain wrote: I still think it shouldn't go in. This is the only feature in Engine 2 which might make non-OOP people convert. Once this isn't in Engine 2 we don't have a carrot for them. You as a Zend owner who's business could be very propitable for Zend2 success or you as a php developer, think that debug_backtrace is bad for php. Sometimes I think that your and zeev's ideas are more business oriented than better for the php community. I'm sure im wrong but thats the way it seems from where I sit. I think that Thies is right he's not trying to back port all of the zend2 functionality but debug_backtrace should have been in many years ago. Holding back such an important feature just so more people would move to zend2 isnt going to make zend2 more popular but I think it doesn't move php forward at all. I would like to see everyone to move to zend2 but we all know that isn't going to happen with our without including debug_backtrace to zend1, php4 isn't going to go away as easy as php3 did no matter how big the carrot is. Why can't you respect this way of thinking? Especially as I wrote the code? You're basically saying screw them because I'll commit it anyway. I think he should commit it anyways. He isn't disrespecting you he just feels strongly against you (as do alot of others). Sometimes I don't think you respect their way of thinking. Sorry if this email sounds like its attacking you. It isn't intended to. Hey, The reason for my objection is not business oriented whatsoever. I did witness the transitions from PHP/FI 2 - PHP 3 (ZE 0.5) and PHP 3 - PHP 4. The first transition wasn't too difficult although there were quite a lot of BC issues because the user base wasn't too big. The PHP 3 - PHP 4 transition was actually quite hard. It took us a long time to get php-dev moving on the new version because most of them were still using PHP 3 for their production sites. The fact that you guys are so strongly in favor of putting this cool feature into ZE1 proves that not putting it in could give ZE2 a big boost of momentum. Everyone feels very strongly about this feature. (On a side note, at least that makes me happy that people liked this revolutionary/negligible performance impact patch :) I think we need this new momentum. A new version of the engine is very important if we want PHP to compete with the latest technologies. If PHP doesn't get moving on its next version I'm afraid it won't be able to maintain its current position in the market. The only person I have seen thinking of what he'd like to get done for PHP 5 is Wez. By the way, the only personal gain I have in getting ZE2 out of there is that it's my code and that PHP will do much better. I think that PHP is going to loose out big time if things don't start gaining some momentum. Backporting is definitely a momentum breaker *especially* as everyone really really wants to backport it badly. That's exactly my point. If you guys want it so badly then work for it! :) Andi -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
By the way, the only personal gain I have in getting ZE2 out of there is that it's my code and that PHP will do much better. I think that PHP is going to loose out big time if things don't start gaining some momentum. Backporting is definitely a momentum breaker *especially* as everyone really really wants to backport it badly. That's exactly my point. If you guys want it so badly then work for it! :) Andi, everybody reading this list can rather simply patch it in themselves. At least, I already have. It's not us we are talking about here, it is the general user population. This is a patch that helps users now. That's what is important. Us, the developers of php-dev, will move to php5 at the same rate regardless of this patch. And when the developers move to php5 the users will invariably follow as they start to see all the support shifting to that version. -Rasmus -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
It took us a long time to get php-dev moving on the new version because most of them were still using PHP 3 for their production sites. The fact that you guys are so strongly in favor of putting this cool feature into ZE1 proves that not putting it in could give ZE2 a big boost of momentum. Everyone feels very strongly about this feature. (On a side note, at least that makes me happy that people liked this revolutionary/negligible performance impact patch :) I think we need this new momentum. A new version of the engine is very important if we want PHP to compete with the latest technologies. If PHP doesn't get moving on its next version I'm afraid it won't be able to maintain its current position in the market. The only person I have seen thinking of what he'd like to get done for PHP 5 is Wez. By the way, the only personal gain I have in getting ZE2 out of there is that it's my code and that PHP will do much better. I think that PHP is going to loose out big time if things don't start gaining some momentum. Backporting is definitely a momentum breaker *especially* as everyone really really wants to backport it badly. That's exactly my point. If you guys want it so badly then work for it! :) Andi One difference between now and the 2-3-4 transition was that then there was a much smaller development group, and one that was invested in and focused on the new versions. Decisions were made primarily by a small group, so even our arguments could be thrashed out fairly quickly. This is not so true today. It's a much larger group of developers, more focused on features needed to do their stuff, rather than the language itself. I don't think that is a bad thing, PHP can use ever more features, but I think PHP has gotten big enough that a smaller group needs to sit down and outline a roadmap and proceedures that will help move towards the goals outlined by the roadmap. The roadmap can't of course prevent someone from implementing stuff not in the roadmap, but at least it would give PHP development a more visible and focused direction than it has now, and what must be done for each version. I suggest a smaller group, because by experience, talking about this stuff in large groups, such as php-dev, leads to never ending cycles of discussion and argument that lead nowhere. The larger group can comment on the roadmap, providing possibly valuable feedback, but it cannot provide the focus necessary to drive development in a targeted direction. Personally, I would trash 4.3, and focus on the next major version including ze2. Do it now, get it over with. Having this non-descript 4.3 between now and ze2 is somewhat distracting. There can be minor point releases to backport bug fixes, etc. Modules can be independently released via PECL if necessary. Afterthought, the only important language item I can think of for 4.3 that shouldn't wait is getting pear in there. I'm sure someone will dissagree. Shane -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
At 11:20 AM 8/20/2002 -0700, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: By the way, the only personal gain I have in getting ZE2 out of there is that it's my code and that PHP will do much better. I think that PHP is going to loose out big time if things don't start gaining some momentum. Backporting is definitely a momentum breaker *especially* as everyone really really wants to backport it badly. That's exactly my point. If you guys want it so badly then work for it! :) Andi, everybody reading this list can rather simply patch it in themselves. At least, I already have. It's not us we are talking about here, it is the general user population. This is a patch that helps users now. That's what is important. Us, the developers of php-dev, will move to php5 at the same rate regardless of this patch. And when the developers move to php5 the users will invariably follow as they start to see all the support shifting to that version. I'm also starting to get tired so I'll make this my last Email (hopefully). I emailed Thies in private about this issue and I have a feeling he'll commit the patch. I just want to summarize a few points I wrote him: I see adding debug_backtrace() to ZE1 tactical thinking. I think postponing it to ZE2 is strategic thinking. It's not to do with who wants to help PHP users more, but how we think we'll manage to help them more. Obviously as the person who wrote the patch all my intention was to help the average PHP user. The current mood on php-dev is it'll take years for PHP 5 to be released so let's add it. I think if everyone here would work hard on it we could get it out within about 4 months. That would only happen if ppl were to write less Emails and do more organizing and coding though. Unlikely... PHP 4.3 has been lingering forever. We could have released PHP 5 in this time. Okay, I still have a couple of things on my ZE2 todo but they could have been slipped in gradually while the rest get their stuff ready. Personally, I think it's time to help PHP keep up with its competitors. I think we should invest our energy in that. debug_backtrace() was the wake-up call to remind ppl to look into the future. Let's just keep it at that because I'm getting tried and prefer working on useful stuff like working on the next version of PHP. Andi -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
On 08/20/02, Shane Caraveo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally, I would trash 4.3, and focus on the next major version including ze2. Do it now, get it over with. Having this non-descript 4.3 between now and ze2 is somewhat distracting. There can be minor point releases to backport bug fixes, etc. Modules can be independently released via PECL if necessary. Afterthought, the only important language item I can think of for 4.3 that shouldn't wait is getting pear in there. I'm sure someone will dissagree. I'd like the streams code to get an airing in a release, so that we know it has gone through that much more testing - I'd like PHP 5 to be nice and stable, and since streams touches a lot of code, I think it would be a good idea to eliminate this as a source of trouble before we introduce ZE2. (Just imagine what a nightmare it would be if we unveiled a new build system, a new streams system and new language level enhancements all at once, and then discovered that there were bugs all over the place!). I'd like to think that my code is always bug free, but the reality of (late|all)-night coding means that this might not be the case for certain parts :-) But, on the whole, I agree with what you were saying: the sooner we switch our focus to ZE2, the better. --Wez. PS: I've finished the filter API for streams, so my TODO list for 4.3 has just gotten a lot shorter. -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Dan Hardiker wrote: Could we not just release a patch to the people that want it (well, need it!), and leave the official implementation until PHP5? That way the carrot remains, but nothing is held back from the people who desperatly want it. Having 'official' patches on top of releases can be a night mare for support ppl, bug validating and will not work for Windblows users. (Yes, I got mails from dudes with What can I do with that patch, it's not an .exe :). In general, I'm against releasing patches if not REALLY required. Derick --- Did I help you? http://www.derickrethans.nl/link.php?url=giftlist Frequent ranting: http://www.derickrethans.nl/ --- PHP: Scripting the Web - [EMAIL PROTECTED] All your branches are belong to me! SRM: Script Running Machine - www.vl-srm.net --- -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 11:48:03PM +0300, Andi Gutmans wrote: At 07:50 PM 8/18/2002 +0200, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 10:29:47AM -0700, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: I don't think we should stop people from tweaking ZE1. ZE2 is probably more than a year away from realistically being available to a lot of people. It takes a while for people to upgrade, and many will skip the .0 release. If a few tweaks to ZE1 can eliminate peoples' motivation to move to ZE2, then why are you writing ZE2? I obviously don't think that is the case as ZE2 has a number of features people have been asking for. i (of course) agree with derick and rasmus. i'm all for applying the patch as is. if zeev and andi don't want to comment on it for their own reasons i cannot help them. if the patch has a problem it'll be found very soon and it'll be fixed. This isn't a conspiracy but I just completely forgot about your Email. Obviously if it is decided that this patch goes into Engine 1 I will look it over. The last thing I'd do was to allow a buggy patch to enter the Engine. andi, i'd love if you could comment on the commenting out line 1626 in the unpatched zend_execute which is needed to have a correct backtrace in some situations. EX(object).ptr will always be correctly reinitialized around line 1662 in the unpatched zend_execute so i believe line 1626 in unneded. if there is any *technical* reason why this patch is not as good as the debug_backtrace that is in ZE2 - let me know. otherwise i'll commit on monday. I don't think that there are any big technical reasons not to include the patch although it might be a bit buggy though as it hasn't been tested very extensively. i fully agree. I do think you guys should consider the psychological aspects of starting to back port my patches from Engine 2. as said in am the course of discussion, debug_backtrace is (so far) the only thing really worth backporting from ZE2 as it's a small piece of code that really makes live easier for script-developers. I personally think that the ZE2 is essential for PHP to prosper in the next few years. The only way it can be pushed is if not only Zeev and I but other people in the community help push it too. It was mentioned that there are a couple of things still missing. I can sum it up that the two main features which are missing are some inheritence problems with nested classes, private methods and a delegation mechanism which was discussed on engine2 for which came up with a pretty decent way of doing which stays with the PHP spirit. These things will be implemented and there is no reason to wait until they are fully implemented in order to start pushing things a bit more. I started with a couple of alpha's and I definitely want to go for another one soon as I fixed some bugs. In the same way we didn't back port some ideas from PHP 4 to PHP 3 I think it's best not to do it now. Because in the end, once we (php-dev) transitions to ZE2 our support will naturally start shifting more and more towards the latest versions (the same as it did in the PHP 3 - PHP 4 transition). After sometime people on php-dev just won't feel like working on old stuff anymore. Therefore, I think we should make the benefit of transition to ZE2 as great as possible so that people migrate. As to the comparison to Apache 2 I think you're far off. The PHP 3 - PHP 4 transition was much smoother than that and the ZE1 - ZE2 transition isn't even between rewrites but just improvements over the old stable version. Once a significant amount of people use it I think it'll take 2-3 months to iron out the bugs. remember, we are not talking about a backport of real new functionality, nor a new language feature. we're talking about adding a very useful feature for developers. my apache 2.0 thing got misinterpreted a bit - let me clearify: apache2.0 is ready, it works and it's even better than 1.3 (the httpd itself). but ppls don't upgrade all threir servers immediatly. as rasmus mentioned, the same thing will happen once PHP5 comes out. it won't be widely used and available to everybody the day it comes out. as for debug_backtrace() (an _only_ debug_backtrace()) i think this is such a cool thing to have and i whished i had it when there was PHP3. i do write large applications, and it's sometimes very hard to find out, what's going on. c'mon how often do you type bt in gdb? re, tc -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
At 11:36 19/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: my apache 2.0 thing got misinterpreted a bit - let me clearify: apache2.0 is ready, it works and it's even better than 1.3 (the httpd itself). but ppls don't upgrade all threir servers immediatly. as rasmus mentioned, the same thing will happen once PHP5 comes out. it won't be widely used and available to everybody the day it comes out. I don't think it was misinterpreted at all, I (and I think Andi too) just disagree with this completely :) Apache 2.0 is a full rewrite. Whether it's actually better than Apache 1.x in terms of stability and proven track record is at best debatable. The switch to it involves major pains and requires learning of new terminology and configuration options, as well as taking the risk of using rewritten-from-almost-scratch software. None of these apply to PHP 5. c'mon how often do you type bt in gdb? How often do you call a function that gives you your current backtrace in C? In my many years of C experience, I would have to say that the accurate answer is -0- times. You really should compare apples with apples... Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
On Mon, Aug 19, 2002 at 11:45:30AM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: How often do you call a function that gives you your current backtrace in C? In my many years of C experience, I would have to say that the accurate answer is -0- times. You really should compare apples with apples... you often said in the past that you don't write php-apps, you write php. i do write php-apps, and debug_backtrace() is one of the most useful features if your app reaches an unexpected failure (= likely a bug). right now i load some zend-extension on my devel boxes - but (as you know), the unexpected often only happens on productions systems. my production systems are soo loaded that i cannot afford to load the zend-extension on there. so post-mortem analysis is much harder there, and you know how hard it sometimes is to reporduce bugs (remember how often i spend hours just to sent you guys the shortest-possible testcase for bugs?) but - in a way you are right, i'm comparing apples and pies. the debug_backtrace() for me is like calling abort() in my c-code to be able to inspect the core-file and see where things went wrong. anyway, i don't thing we are discussing the usefullness of debug_backtrace() here. i think andi will look over the one critical line of the patch - if he agrees that this change is ok, i will go ahead and commit. re, tc -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
At 13:30 19/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: On Mon, Aug 19, 2002 at 11:45:30AM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: How often do you call a function that gives you your current backtrace in C? In my many years of C experience, I would have to say that the accurate answer is -0- times. You really should compare apples with apples... you often said in the past that you don't write php-apps, you write php. And I said almost as often that this was an exaggeration. I wrote a big share of PHP in my life. anyway, i don't thing we are discussing the usefullness of debug_backtrace() here. Right. I was just pointing out the inconsistency. i think andi will look over the one critical line of the patch - if he agrees that this change is ok, i will go ahead and commit. Have fun... Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
I said before - I prefer not having any changes in ZE1, for both stability
reasons and also as a motivation to get ZE2 out the door more quickly.
Zeev
At 17:21 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote:
if noone objects i'm going to commit this to -HEAD (and we
can start discussing it then;-)
re,
tc
On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 07:39:59PM +0200, Thies C. Arntzen wrote:
hi,
this patch adds the extremely useful debug_backtrace()
function to ZE1. as it's more-or-less the same
implementation as in ZE2 so it should be fast and efficient
enough for inclusion in 4.3 IMHO.
it has one extra feature over the ZE2 implementation by
giving some extra information if a method was called
using :: or - (see the 'type' attribute in the array
returned by debug_backtrace).
zeev, andi one question: i had to comment line 1628 (just
apply the patch and see for yourself) to make the following
code work correctly (= show the class in the backtrace):
?php
class a {
function dump() {
var_dump(debug_backtrace());
}
}
$a = new a;
$a-dump();
?
(just uncomment line 1628 in the patched sources and see how
the output of debug_backtrace doesn't show the class-name for
this script any more)
i don't think that commenting this line will have any
side-effect as EG(object).ptr will be re-initialized in 1665
and i don't see any references to it in between.
i'd love to have this included in 4.3.0 and i think a lot of
people would be happy as well.
implementation:
to make this whole thing work i simply added the class_entry
to the execute_data and am pushing and popping it together
with (object).ptr.
if this patch gets accepted i'll add an php.ini seting so
that errors and warnings will optionally have the full
call-stack.
comments are welcome - especially from andi zeev.
tc
PS: patch is against -HEAD
--
Thies C. Arnzten - Looking for all sorts of freelance
work - just ask..
Whishlist:
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/wishlist/AB9DY62QWDSZ/ref=wl_em_to
? ext/tca_prof
Index: Zend/zend_builtin_functions.c
===
RCS file: /repository/Zend/zend_builtin_functions.c,v
retrieving revision 1.118
diff -u -r1.118 zend_builtin_functions.c
--- Zend/zend_builtin_functions.c 12 Jun 2002 17:02:22 - 1.118
+++ Zend/zend_builtin_functions.c 16 Aug 2002 17:22:01 -
-65,6 +65,7
static ZEND_FUNCTION(extension_loaded);
static ZEND_FUNCTION(get_extension_funcs);
static ZEND_FUNCTION(get_defined_constants);
+static ZEND_FUNCTION(debug_backtrace);
#if ZEND_DEBUG
static ZEND_FUNCTION(zend_test_func);
#endif
-116,6 +117,7
ZEND_FE(extension_loaded, NULL)
ZEND_FE(get_extension_funcs,NULL)
ZEND_FE(get_defined_constants, NULL)
+ ZEND_FE(debug_backtrace,NULL)
#if ZEND_DEBUG
ZEND_FE(zend_test_func, NULL)
#endif
-1133,6 +1135,69
array_init(return_value);
zend_hash_apply_with_argument(EG(zend_constants),
(apply_func_arg_t) add_constant_info, return_value TSRMLS_CC);
}
+
+/* {{{ proto void debug_backtrace(void)
+ Prints out a backtrace */
+ZEND_FUNCTION(debug_backtrace)
+{
+ zend_execute_data *ptr;
+ int lineno;
+ char *function_name;
+ char *filename;
+ char *class_name;
+ zend_uint class_name_length;
+ zval *stack_frame;
+
+ ptr = EG(execute_data_ptr);
+
+ /* Skip debug_backtrace() itself */
+ ptr = ptr-prev_execute_data;
+
+ array_init(return_value);
+
+ while (ptr) {
+ MAKE_STD_ZVAL(stack_frame);
+ array_init(stack_frame);
+
+
+/* if (ptr-object) {
+ class_name = Z_OBJCE(*ptr-object)-name;
+ class_name_length =
Z_OBJCE(*ptr-object)-name_length;
+ }
+ if (ptr-function_state.function-common.scope) {
+ class_name =
ptr-function_state.function-common.scope-name;
+ }
+*/
+ if (ptr-ce) {
+ add_assoc_string_ex(stack_frame, type,
sizeof(type), ::, 1);
+ class_name = ptr-ce-name;
+ } else if (ptr-object.ptr) {
+ add_assoc_string_ex(stack_frame, type,
sizeof(type), -, 1);
+ class_name = ptr-object.ptr-value.obj.ce-name;
+
+ } else {
+ class_name = NULL;
+ }
+
+ function_name =
ptr-function_state.function-common.function_name;
+
+ filename = ptr-op_array-filename;
+ lineno =
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
I also think we should make sure enough people have motivation to move to
ZE2. If not it'll be hard to push it out and we all know that it's a very
important step for PHP. As it is, there is still not enough momentum behind it.
Andi
At 05:38 PM 8/18/2002 +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote:
I said before - I prefer not having any changes in ZE1, for both stability
reasons and also as a motivation to get ZE2 out the door more quickly.
Zeev
At 17:21 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote:
if noone objects i'm going to commit this to -HEAD (and we
can start discussing it then;-)
re,
tc
On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 07:39:59PM +0200, Thies C. Arntzen wrote:
hi,
this patch adds the extremely useful debug_backtrace()
function to ZE1. as it's more-or-less the same
implementation as in ZE2 so it should be fast and efficient
enough for inclusion in 4.3 IMHO.
it has one extra feature over the ZE2 implementation by
giving some extra information if a method was called
using :: or - (see the 'type' attribute in the array
returned by debug_backtrace).
zeev, andi one question: i had to comment line 1628 (just
apply the patch and see for yourself) to make the following
code work correctly (= show the class in the backtrace):
?php
class a {
function dump() {
var_dump(debug_backtrace());
}
}
$a = new a;
$a-dump();
?
(just uncomment line 1628 in the patched sources and see how
the output of debug_backtrace doesn't show the class-name for
this script any more)
i don't think that commenting this line will have any
side-effect as EG(object).ptr will be re-initialized in 1665
and i don't see any references to it in between.
i'd love to have this included in 4.3.0 and i think a lot of
people would be happy as well.
implementation:
to make this whole thing work i simply added the class_entry
to the execute_data and am pushing and popping it together
with (object).ptr.
if this patch gets accepted i'll add an php.ini seting so
that errors and warnings will optionally have the full
call-stack.
comments are welcome - especially from andi zeev.
tc
PS: patch is against -HEAD
--
Thies C. Arnzten - Looking for all sorts of freelance
work - just ask..
Whishlist:
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/wishlist/AB9DY62QWDSZ/ref=wl_em_to
? ext/tca_prof
Index: Zend/zend_builtin_functions.c
===
RCS file: /repository/Zend/zend_builtin_functions.c,v
retrieving revision 1.118
diff -u -r1.118 zend_builtin_functions.c
--- Zend/zend_builtin_functions.c 12 Jun 2002 17:02:22
- 1.118
+++ Zend/zend_builtin_functions.c 16 Aug 2002 17:22:01 -
-65,6 +65,7
static ZEND_FUNCTION(extension_loaded);
static ZEND_FUNCTION(get_extension_funcs);
static ZEND_FUNCTION(get_defined_constants);
+static ZEND_FUNCTION(debug_backtrace);
#if ZEND_DEBUG
static ZEND_FUNCTION(zend_test_func);
#endif
-116,6 +117,7
ZEND_FE(extension_loaded, NULL)
ZEND_FE(get_extension_funcs,NULL)
ZEND_FE(get_defined_constants, NULL)
+ ZEND_FE(debug_backtrace,NULL)
#if ZEND_DEBUG
ZEND_FE(zend_test_func, NULL)
#endif
-1133,6 +1135,69
array_init(return_value);
zend_hash_apply_with_argument(EG(zend_constants),
(apply_func_arg_t) add_constant_info, return_value TSRMLS_CC);
}
+
+/* {{{ proto void debug_backtrace(void)
+ Prints out a backtrace */
+ZEND_FUNCTION(debug_backtrace)
+{
+ zend_execute_data *ptr;
+ int lineno;
+ char *function_name;
+ char *filename;
+ char *class_name;
+ zend_uint class_name_length;
+ zval *stack_frame;
+
+ ptr = EG(execute_data_ptr);
+
+ /* Skip debug_backtrace() itself */
+ ptr = ptr-prev_execute_data;
+
+ array_init(return_value);
+
+ while (ptr) {
+ MAKE_STD_ZVAL(stack_frame);
+ array_init(stack_frame);
+
+
+/* if (ptr-object) {
+ class_name = Z_OBJCE(*ptr-object)-name;
+ class_name_length =
Z_OBJCE(*ptr-object)-name_length;
+ }
+ if (ptr-function_state.function-common.scope) {
+ class_name =
ptr-function_state.function-common.scope-name;
+ }
+*/
+ if (ptr-ce) {
+ add_assoc_string_ex(stack_frame, type,
sizeof(type), ::, 1);
+ class_name = ptr-ce-name;
+ } else if (ptr-object.ptr) {
+ add_assoc_string_ex(stack_frame, type,
sizeof(type), -, 1);
+ class_name =
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
there is one tiny change that might destabelize the ZE1 - i
asked if you could take a look and see if you agree with
me that this change is actually *not* harmful.
i don't really see your point that having debug_backtrace
only available in ZE2 will bring more momentum to the ZE2
development. and not wanting a new (and btw very useful
feature) in ZE1 for that very reason is not good IMHO.
zeev, andi - have you had a *look* at the patch and do you see
any good reason not to have it in 4.3? i do not buy you lets
only bring ZE2 forward argument at all.
i'd love to hear more opinions on this.
tc
On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 06:40:35PM +0300, Andi Gutmans wrote:
I also think we should make sure enough people have motivation to move to
ZE2. If not it'll be hard to push it out and we all know that it's a very
important step for PHP. As it is, there is still not enough momentum behind
it.
Andi
At 05:38 PM 8/18/2002 +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote:
I said before - I prefer not having any changes in ZE1, for both stability
reasons and also as a motivation to get ZE2 out the door more quickly.
Zeev
At 17:21 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote:
if noone objects i'm going to commit this to -HEAD (and we
can start discussing it then;-)
re,
tc
On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 07:39:59PM +0200, Thies C. Arntzen wrote:
hi,
this patch adds the extremely useful debug_backtrace()
function to ZE1. as it's more-or-less the same
implementation as in ZE2 so it should be fast and efficient
enough for inclusion in 4.3 IMHO.
it has one extra feature over the ZE2 implementation by
giving some extra information if a method was called
using :: or - (see the 'type' attribute in the array
returned by debug_backtrace).
zeev, andi one question: i had to comment line 1628 (just
apply the patch and see for yourself) to make the following
code work correctly (= show the class in the backtrace):
?php
class a {
function dump() {
var_dump(debug_backtrace());
}
}
$a = new a;
$a-dump();
?
(just uncomment line 1628 in the patched sources and see how
the output of debug_backtrace doesn't show the class-name for
this script any more)
i don't think that commenting this line will have any
side-effect as EG(object).ptr will be re-initialized in 1665
and i don't see any references to it in between.
i'd love to have this included in 4.3.0 and i think a lot of
people would be happy as well.
implementation:
to make this whole thing work i simply added the class_entry
to the execute_data and am pushing and popping it together
with (object).ptr.
if this patch gets accepted i'll add an php.ini seting so
that errors and warnings will optionally have the full
call-stack.
comments are welcome - especially from andi zeev.
tc
PS: patch is against -HEAD
--
Thies C. Arnzten - Looking for all sorts of freelance
work - just ask..
Whishlist:
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/wishlist/AB9DY62QWDSZ/ref=wl_em_to
? ext/tca_prof
Index: Zend/zend_builtin_functions.c
===
RCS file: /repository/Zend/zend_builtin_functions.c,v
retrieving revision 1.118
diff -u -r1.118 zend_builtin_functions.c
--- Zend/zend_builtin_functions.c 12 Jun 2002 17:02:22
- 1.118
+++ Zend/zend_builtin_functions.c 16 Aug 2002 17:22:01 -
-65,6 +65,7
static ZEND_FUNCTION(extension_loaded);
static ZEND_FUNCTION(get_extension_funcs);
static ZEND_FUNCTION(get_defined_constants);
+static ZEND_FUNCTION(debug_backtrace);
#if ZEND_DEBUG
static ZEND_FUNCTION(zend_test_func);
#endif
-116,6 +117,7
ZEND_FE(extension_loaded, NULL)
ZEND_FE(get_extension_funcs,NULL)
ZEND_FE(get_defined_constants, NULL)
+ ZEND_FE(debug_backtrace,NULL)
#if ZEND_DEBUG
ZEND_FE(zend_test_func, NULL)
#endif
-1133,6 +1135,69
array_init(return_value);
zend_hash_apply_with_argument(EG(zend_constants),
(apply_func_arg_t) add_constant_info, return_value TSRMLS_CC);
}
+
+/* {{{ proto void debug_backtrace(void)
+ Prints out a backtrace */
+ZEND_FUNCTION(debug_backtrace)
+{
+ zend_execute_data *ptr;
+ int lineno;
+ char *function_name;
+ char *filename;
+ char *class_name;
+ zend_uint class_name_length;
+ zval *stack_frame;
+
+ ptr = EG(execute_data_ptr);
+
+ /* Skip debug_backtrace() itself */
+ ptr = ptr-prev_execute_data;
+
+ array_init(return_value);
+
+ while (ptr) {
+ MAKE_STD_ZVAL(stack_frame);
+
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
I haven't, because of the two reasons I mentioned. There's nothing about
the specifics of the patch that can make me change my personal mind about it...
I understand you disagree with me about the momentum issue, so let's agree
to disagree.
Zeev
At 20:12 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote:
there is one tiny change that might destabelize the ZE1 - i
asked if you could take a look and see if you agree with
me that this change is actually *not* harmful.
i don't really see your point that having debug_backtrace
only available in ZE2 will bring more momentum to the ZE2
development. and not wanting a new (and btw very useful
feature) in ZE1 for that very reason is not good IMHO.
zeev, andi - have you had a *look* at the patch and do you see
any good reason not to have it in 4.3? i do not buy you lets
only bring ZE2 forward argument at all.
i'd love to hear more opinions on this.
tc
On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 06:40:35PM +0300, Andi Gutmans wrote:
I also think we should make sure enough people have motivation to move to
ZE2. If not it'll be hard to push it out and we all know that it's a very
important step for PHP. As it is, there is still not enough momentum
behind
it.
Andi
At 05:38 PM 8/18/2002 +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote:
I said before - I prefer not having any changes in ZE1, for both
stability
reasons and also as a motivation to get ZE2 out the door more quickly.
Zeev
At 17:21 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote:
if noone objects i'm going to commit this to -HEAD (and we
can start discussing it then;-)
re,
tc
On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 07:39:59PM +0200, Thies C. Arntzen wrote:
hi,
this patch adds the extremely useful debug_backtrace()
function to ZE1. as it's more-or-less the same
implementation as in ZE2 so it should be fast and efficient
enough for inclusion in 4.3 IMHO.
it has one extra feature over the ZE2 implementation by
giving some extra information if a method was called
using :: or - (see the 'type' attribute in the array
returned by debug_backtrace).
zeev, andi one question: i had to comment line 1628 (just
apply the patch and see for yourself) to make the following
code work correctly (= show the class in the backtrace):
?php
class a {
function dump() {
var_dump(debug_backtrace());
}
}
$a = new a;
$a-dump();
?
(just uncomment line 1628 in the patched sources and see how
the output of debug_backtrace doesn't show the class-name for
this script any more)
i don't think that commenting this line will have any
side-effect as EG(object).ptr will be re-initialized in 1665
and i don't see any references to it in between.
i'd love to have this included in 4.3.0 and i think a lot of
people would be happy as well.
implementation:
to make this whole thing work i simply added the class_entry
to the execute_data and am pushing and popping it together
with (object).ptr.
if this patch gets accepted i'll add an php.ini seting so
that errors and warnings will optionally have the full
call-stack.
comments are welcome - especially from andi zeev.
tc
PS: patch is against -HEAD
--
Thies C. Arnzten - Looking for all sorts of freelance
work - just ask..
Whishlist:
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/wishlist/AB9DY62QWDSZ/ref=wl_em_to
? ext/tca_prof
Index: Zend/zend_builtin_functions.c
===
RCS file: /repository/Zend/zend_builtin_functions.c,v
retrieving revision 1.118
diff -u -r1.118 zend_builtin_functions.c
--- Zend/zend_builtin_functions.c 12 Jun 2002 17:02:22
- 1.118
+++ Zend/zend_builtin_functions.c 16 Aug 2002 17:22:01 -
-65,6 +65,7
static ZEND_FUNCTION(extension_loaded);
static ZEND_FUNCTION(get_extension_funcs);
static ZEND_FUNCTION(get_defined_constants);
+static ZEND_FUNCTION(debug_backtrace);
#if ZEND_DEBUG
static ZEND_FUNCTION(zend_test_func);
#endif
-116,6 +117,7
ZEND_FE(extension_loaded, NULL)
ZEND_FE(get_extension_funcs,NULL)
ZEND_FE(get_defined_constants, NULL)
+ ZEND_FE(debug_backtrace,NULL)
#if ZEND_DEBUG
ZEND_FE(zend_test_func, NULL)
#endif
-1133,6 +1135,69
array_init(return_value);
zend_hash_apply_with_argument(EG(zend_constants),
(apply_func_arg_t) add_constant_info, return_value TSRMLS_CC);
}
+
+/* {{{ proto void debug_backtrace(void)
+ Prints out a backtrace */
+ZEND_FUNCTION(debug_backtrace)
+{
+ zend_execute_data *ptr;
+
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 08:19:52PM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: I haven't, because of the two reasons I mentioned. There's nothing about the specifics of the patch that can make me change my personal mind about it... I understand you disagree with me about the momentum issue, so let's agree to disagree. so you're saying we effectifly stop working on improvements for ZE1? not sure if too many ppls will be happy to hear that whitout even having a clear roadmap for ZE2.. please reconsider... tc -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
I don't think we should stop people from tweaking ZE1. ZE2 is probably
more than a year away from realistically being available to a lot of
people. It takes a while for people to upgrade, and many will skip the .0
release. If a few tweaks to ZE1 can eliminate peoples' motivation to move
to ZE2, then why are you writing ZE2? I obviously don't think that is the
case as ZE2 has a number of features people have been asking for.
-Rasmus
On Sun, 18 Aug 2002, Zeev Suraski wrote:
I haven't, because of the two reasons I mentioned. There's nothing about
the specifics of the patch that can make me change my personal mind about it...
I understand you disagree with me about the momentum issue, so let's agree
to disagree.
Zeev
At 20:12 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote:
there is one tiny change that might destabelize the ZE1 - i
asked if you could take a look and see if you agree with
me that this change is actually *not* harmful.
i don't really see your point that having debug_backtrace
only available in ZE2 will bring more momentum to the ZE2
development. and not wanting a new (and btw very useful
feature) in ZE1 for that very reason is not good IMHO.
zeev, andi - have you had a *look* at the patch and do you see
any good reason not to have it in 4.3? i do not buy you lets
only bring ZE2 forward argument at all.
i'd love to hear more opinions on this.
tc
On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 06:40:35PM +0300, Andi Gutmans wrote:
I also think we should make sure enough people have motivation to move to
ZE2. If not it'll be hard to push it out and we all know that it's a very
important step for PHP. As it is, there is still not enough momentum
behind
it.
Andi
At 05:38 PM 8/18/2002 +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote:
I said before - I prefer not having any changes in ZE1, for both
stability
reasons and also as a motivation to get ZE2 out the door more quickly.
Zeev
At 17:21 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote:
if noone objects i'm going to commit this to -HEAD (and we
can start discussing it then;-)
re,
tc
On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 07:39:59PM +0200, Thies C. Arntzen wrote:
hi,
this patch adds the extremely useful debug_backtrace()
function to ZE1. as it's more-or-less the same
implementation as in ZE2 so it should be fast and efficient
enough for inclusion in 4.3 IMHO.
it has one extra feature over the ZE2 implementation by
giving some extra information if a method was called
using :: or - (see the 'type' attribute in the array
returned by debug_backtrace).
zeev, andi one question: i had to comment line 1628 (just
apply the patch and see for yourself) to make the following
code work correctly (= show the class in the backtrace):
?php
class a {
function dump() {
var_dump(debug_backtrace());
}
}
$a = new a;
$a-dump();
?
(just uncomment line 1628 in the patched sources and see how
the output of debug_backtrace doesn't show the class-name for
this script any more)
i don't think that commenting this line will have any
side-effect as EG(object).ptr will be re-initialized in 1665
and i don't see any references to it in between.
i'd love to have this included in 4.3.0 and i think a lot of
people would be happy as well.
implementation:
to make this whole thing work i simply added the class_entry
to the execute_data and am pushing and popping it together
with (object).ptr.
if this patch gets accepted i'll add an php.ini seting so
that errors and warnings will optionally have the full
call-stack.
comments are welcome - especially from andi zeev.
tc
PS: patch is against -HEAD
--
Thies C. Arnzten - Looking for all sorts of freelance
work - just ask..
Whishlist:
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/wishlist/AB9DY62QWDSZ/ref=wl_em_to
? ext/tca_prof
Index: Zend/zend_builtin_functions.c
===
RCS file: /repository/Zend/zend_builtin_functions.c,v
retrieving revision 1.118
diff -u -r1.118 zend_builtin_functions.c
--- Zend/zend_builtin_functions.c 12 Jun 2002 17:02:22
- 1.118
+++ Zend/zend_builtin_functions.c 16 Aug 2002 17:22:01 -
-65,6 +65,7
static ZEND_FUNCTION(extension_loaded);
static ZEND_FUNCTION(get_extension_funcs);
static ZEND_FUNCTION(get_defined_constants);
+static ZEND_FUNCTION(debug_backtrace);
#if ZEND_DEBUG
static ZEND_FUNCTION(zend_test_func);
#endif
-116,6 +117,7
ZEND_FE(extension_loaded,
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
On Sun, 18 Aug 2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 08:19:52PM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: I haven't, because of the two reasons I mentioned. There's nothing about the specifics of the patch that can make me change my personal mind about it... I understand you disagree with me about the momentum issue, so let's agree to disagree. so you're saying we effectifly stop working on improvements for ZE1? not sure if too many ppls will be happy to hear that whitout even having a clear roadmap for ZE2.. I'm not happy with that indeed. ZE1 is still the current version, and I wouldn't see any reason to not extend it (or even backport things from ZE2 as this patch is largely about). Derick --- Did I help you? http://www.derickrethans.nl/link.php?url=giftlist Frequent ranting: http://www.derickrethans.nl/ --- PHP: Scripting the Web - [EMAIL PROTECTED] All your branches are belong to me! SRM: Script Running Machine - www.vl-srm.net --- -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
At 20:29 18/08/2002, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: I don't think we should stop people from tweaking ZE1. ZE2 is probably more than a year away from realistically being available to a lot of people. No, it's not. It's around 6 months away from being production-quality. That's exactly the misperception that we have to fight. I don't consider adding new features as tweaking - if PHP lived w/o that feature for 5 years, it can wait one more year, especially when you do have plug-in solutions that give you that functionality if you MUST have it. Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
At 20:40 18/08/2002, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not happy with that indeed. ZE1 is still the current version, and I wouldn't see any reason to not extend it (or even backport things from ZE2 as this patch is largely about). Why not backport all the changes then? I'm -1 on introducing any new features in ZE1. I think Andi is too. If everyone votes against us, you know, there are other people with commit access, but it's a bit of a slap in the face, especially considering this is Andi's code in the first place. Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 10:29:47AM -0700, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: I don't think we should stop people from tweaking ZE1. ZE2 is probably more than a year away from realistically being available to a lot of people. It takes a while for people to upgrade, and many will skip the .0 release. If a few tweaks to ZE1 can eliminate peoples' motivation to move to ZE2, then why are you writing ZE2? I obviously don't think that is the case as ZE2 has a number of features people have been asking for. i (of course) agree with derick and rasmus. i'm all for applying the patch as is. if zeev and andi don't want to comment on it for their own reasons i cannot help them. if the patch has a problem it'll be found very soon and it'll be fixed. if there is any *technical* reason why this patch is not as good as the debug_backtrace that is in ZE2 - let me know. otherwise i'll commit on monday. re, tc -Rasmus On Sun, 18 Aug 2002, Zeev Suraski wrote: I haven't, because of the two reasons I mentioned. There's nothing about the specifics of the patch that can make me change my personal mind about it... I understand you disagree with me about the momentum issue, so let's agree to disagree. Zeev At 20:12 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: there is one tiny change that might destabelize the ZE1 - i asked if you could take a look and see if you agree with me that this change is actually *not* harmful. i don't really see your point that having debug_backtrace only available in ZE2 will bring more momentum to the ZE2 development. and not wanting a new (and btw very useful feature) in ZE1 for that very reason is not good IMHO. zeev, andi - have you had a *look* at the patch and do you see any good reason not to have it in 4.3? i do not buy you lets only bring ZE2 forward argument at all. i'd love to hear more opinions on this. tc On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 06:40:35PM +0300, Andi Gutmans wrote: I also think we should make sure enough people have motivation to move to ZE2. If not it'll be hard to push it out and we all know that it's a very important step for PHP. As it is, there is still not enough momentum behind it. Andi At 05:38 PM 8/18/2002 +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: I said before - I prefer not having any changes in ZE1, for both stability reasons and also as a motivation to get ZE2 out the door more quickly. Zeev At 17:21 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: if noone objects i'm going to commit this to -HEAD (and we can start discussing it then;-) re, tc snip -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
At 20:24 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 08:19:52PM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: I haven't, because of the two reasons I mentioned. There's nothing about the specifics of the patch that can make me change my personal mind about it... I understand you disagree with me about the momentum issue, so let's agree to disagree. so you're saying we effectifly stop working on improvements for ZE1? Yep. not sure if too many ppls will be happy to hear that whitout even having a clear roadmap for ZE2.. We have a pretty clear roadmap for ZE2 AFAIK. We're currently lingering for no good reason. Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 08:49:30PM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: At 20:40 18/08/2002, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not happy with that indeed. ZE1 is still the current version, and I wouldn't see any reason to not extend it (or even backport things from ZE2 as this patch is largely about). Why not backport all the changes then? I'm -1 on introducing any new features in ZE1. I think Andi is too. If everyone votes against us, you know, there are other people with commit access, but it's a bit of a slap in the face, especially considering this is Andi's code in the first place. we _want_ to work together, right? atleast i want that. i have pulled my hair many times for having a real-backtrace on a production-site _without_ having to load an extension that makes the whole site ~10% slower (sorry, derick) you are slapping into the users face by saying, wait another 6 month for something that could be available as soon as 4.3. BTW: the code we're talking about is neither magic nor very complex. andi, sorry i you felt me stepping on your feet;-) zeev, this discussion should be pure technical, any political or personal things should be left off! tc -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
At 20:29 18/08/2002, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: I don't think we should stop people from tweaking ZE1. ZE2 is probably more than a year away from realistically being available to a lot of people. No, it's not. It's around 6 months away from being production-quality. That's exactly the misperception that we have to fight. I said nothing about production-quality. realistically being available to a lot of people is what I said. We both know that the world is not going to rush out and install PHP 5.0 the instant it is released. -Rasmus -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 08:50:04PM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: At 20:24 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 08:19:52PM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: I haven't, because of the two reasons I mentioned. There's nothing about the specifics of the patch that can make me change my personal mind about it... I understand you disagree with me about the momentum issue, so let's agree to disagree. so you're saying we effectifly stop working on improvements for ZE1? Yep. so - cool, you (za) stopped working on it. does that mean it's now written in stone and nobody is allowed to touch it? i have asked very nicely if you could review a patch i've written. i have cc'ed you and andi as you are the authors of the engine. - no reply - the reply i got after pinging again had _no_ technical background whatsoever. i have asked on php-dev and not php-tellmeyoufeelingsaboutthefuture. this is more than a little frustrating for me and i'm sure not too many ppls will be happy about your desupport notice for ZE1. not sure if too many ppls will be happy to hear that whitout even having a clear roadmap for ZE2.. We have a pretty clear roadmap for ZE2 AFAIK. We're currently lingering for no good reason. apache 2.0 - does that ring a bell? tc -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
At 21:00 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: this is more than a little frustrating for me and i'm sure not too many ppls will be happy about your desupport notice for ZE1. It has nothing to do with desupport. I fixed ZE1 issues, *COMPLEX* ones, that cost me days of low level debugging, just two days ago. Not introducing new feautres != lack of support. I'm sorry I did not reply to your initial letter, but you could have sent it again. I get an insane amount of email, and even emails that I read and tag as 'get back to' don't always get replies because as you well know, I'm senile. Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
At 20:56 18/08/2002, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: At 20:29 18/08/2002, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: I don't think we should stop people from tweaking ZE1. ZE2 is probably more than a year away from realistically being available to a lot of people. No, it's not. It's around 6 months away from being production-quality. That's exactly the misperception that we have to fight. I said nothing about production-quality. realistically being available to a lot of people is what I said. We both know that the world is not going to rush out and install PHP 5.0 the instant it is released. Nope, but within about 3 months, it will, if we judge by PHP 4. 9 months is realistic, and it's much less than a year. People who are willing to 'rush' into PHP 4.3 wil probably be willing to rush into 5.0 almost equally, especially with the compatibility mode. Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
Zeev makes a very very good point here.. What is the point of backporting everything into 4.3, There is no real point. PHP needs to move forward with new and improved.. Not spending its time going no where, and trying to improve on going no where. With ZE2 being the current goal the only thing that should go into ZE1 would be security/bug's that require fixing.. The only goal for ZE1 should be keeping it stable/safe.. Not making it better. On Sun, 2002-08-18 at 12:46, Zeev Suraski wrote: At 20:29 18/08/2002, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: I don't think we should stop people from tweaking ZE1. ZE2 is probably more than a year away from realistically being available to a lot of people. No, it's not. It's around 6 months away from being production-quality. That's exactly the misperception that we have to fight. I don't consider adding new features as tweaking - if PHP lived w/o that feature for 5 years, it can wait one more year, especially when you do have plug-in solutions that give you that functionality if you MUST have it. Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
At 21:00 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: so - cool, you (za) stopped working on it. does that mean it's now written in stone and nobody is allowed to touch it? Feature-wise, I hope so. There's so much I can do to actually make it so, though. We have a pretty clear roadmap for ZE2 AFAIK. We're currently lingering for no good reason. apache 2.0 - does that ring a bell? I don't think that the comparison is valid at the slightest. ZE2 is an improvement, a variation, on ZE1. It's not a complete rewrite, it doesn't switch from one execution environment to another, it doesn't replace the infrastructure. It can be QA'd and released in a very short period of time. With Apache 2.0 - I can't even begin the list the number of challenges that this project faces, which is why most people estimate the time to stability for this version between 6 months and infinity. Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
On Sun, 18 Aug 2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: we _want_ to work together, right? atleast i want that. i have pulled my hair many times for having a real-backtrace on a production-site _without_ having to load an extension that makes the whole site ~10% slower (sorry, derick) It was not written with speed in mind, so I think it's pretty good that it's only 10% slower :) Derick --- PHP: Scripting the Web - [EMAIL PROTECTED] All your branches are belong to me! SRM: Script Running Machine - www.vl-srm.net --- -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 09:00:25PM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: At 20:54 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: BTW: the code we're talking about is neither magic nor very complex. andi, sorry i you felt me stepping on your feet;-) And yet you took it from ZE2 a couple of months after it was written, as opposed to two years ago when ZE1 was already out? Come on, Thies, sometimes knowing which algorithm to use and where to put the two lines of code is the complexity, as it is in this case. i am working on a zend-extension that needs to know the real current backtrace. you wrote the ze-extension interface, and you should know that it's *very*, *very* hard to find the real callstack from within an extension (all extensions i'm aware of have do it wrong). after fiddling with it for a while i looked at the stuff andi did and found that it can be apllied mostly (there _is_ one difference) to ZE1, what's wrong with that? do i want credits for it? NO. do i think this feature will help me and others? YES. zeev, this discussion should be pure technical, any political or personal things should be left off! I have two reasons, one technical (stability) and one which you may call political (ZE2). I don't see anything wrong with taking 'political' reasons into account. PHP is a big thing today, we can't treat it in the same way that we treated it five years ago. you told me that you didn't even look into the patch. so -no- you have no technical reason except if you think i'm stupid. your political reason has no standing in my opinion. Replying to Rasmus' concern - of course we're not afraid that this tiny patch will 'eliminate' the motivation of people to move. It's the state of mind of php-dev that I'm afraid of. Much like your perception is that we're more than a year away from a usable version, and Thies's perception that we have no roadmap for ZE2 - you can only imagine what other, less core developers have in mind. We need to get going with ZE2, and yes, holding on and keeping goodies for the new version are a way of doing ^^ you can do that in closed-source, commercial software. trying to do that in opensource will drive people away from you... it. I did that in lots of features in PHP 4, and frankly, I think it's very lucky that I did, as the transition from PHP 3 to 4 was VERY successful. Imagine if we still had to fix PHP 3 bugs on a daily basis. i do remember countless hours that i put into the transition from PHP 3 to PHP 4 during that time i became a member of the PHP Group - but what has that to do with debug_backtrace()? tc -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 08:18:40PM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 18 Aug 2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: we _want_ to work together, right? atleast i want that. i have pulled my hair many times for having a real-backtrace on a production-site _without_ having to load an extension that makes the whole site ~10% slower (sorry, derick) It was not written with speed in mind, so I think it's pretty good that it's only 10% slower :) it can't be much faster - i've beed down that path. tc -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 01:06:47PM -0500, Richard Thomas wrote: Zeev makes a very very good point here.. What is the point of backporting everything into 4.3, There is no real point. PHP needs to move forward with new and improved.. Not spending its time going no where, and trying to improve on going no where. richard, you are missing the point here, the time is already spent. it has been backported. why not accept the patch? With ZE2 being the current goal the only thing that should go into ZE1 would be security/bug's that require fixing.. The only goal for ZE1 should be keeping it stable/safe.. Not making it better. i disagree. tc -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
At 21:15 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 09:00:25PM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: At 20:54 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: BTW: the code we're talking about is neither magic nor very complex. andi, sorry i you felt me stepping on your feet;-) And yet you took it from ZE2 a couple of months after it was written, as opposed to two years ago when ZE1 was already out? Come on, Thies, sometimes knowing which algorithm to use and where to put the two lines of code is the complexity, as it is in this case. i am working on a zend-extension that needs to know the real current backtrace. you wrote the ze-extension interface, and you should know that it's *very*, *very* hard to find the real callstack from within an extension (all extensions i'm aware of have do it wrong). It may sound like a product pitch but it really isn't - did you take a look at the way the Zend Studio displays stack traces? AFAIK, it's absolutely accurate, and it doesn't do any magic. I'm not aware of any problems getting the stack trace right with the extension interface. I can even help you with that. after fiddling with it for a while i looked at the stuff andi did and found that it can be apllied mostly (there _is_ one difference) to ZE1, what's wrong with that? do i want credits for it? NO. do i think this feature will help me and others? YES. I didn't think you wanted credit for it, that's obviously not the issue. The two issues I did mention, coupled with the fact that Andi is the one who wrote the code in the first place, are the issue, IMHO. you told me that you didn't even look into the patch. so -no- you have no technical reason except if you think i'm stupid. Uhm no. Touching a delicate portion of execute() is dangerous no matter what. If it's for adding a new feature, then in my humble opinion, it is not worth it at this point. your political reason has no standing in my opinion. To each his own. ^^ you can do that in closed-source, commercial software. trying to do that in opensource will drive people away from you... As it did with PHP 4? Commercial software and opensource software have lots of things in common, and encouraging people to migrate to the newest version is one of those things. If you don't, you get into a support nightmare. It's as simple as that. it. I did that in lots of features in PHP 4, and frankly, I think it's very lucky that I did, as the transition from PHP 3 to 4 was VERY successful. Imagine if we still had to fix PHP 3 bugs on a daily basis. i do remember countless hours that i put into the transition from PHP 3 to PHP 4 during that time i became a member of the PHP Group - but what has that to do with debug_backtrace()? Nothing specific, it has to do with new features. I added lots of new features that could be backported to PHP 3, when PHP 3 was a hell of a lot more popular than 4, when 4 was really just a beta. Forget my code. The session module could be ported back to PHP 3 with almost no changes, why wasn't it done? And you know, session functionality is something useful to literally everyone, and is much more important than a backtrace. If you want it so much and need it so much and are so furious about it, then whatever, backport it. Let it be noted that I firmly object, and that Andi objected as well (not sure how firmly :) Let it be also noted that I will firmly object to further backports of new features in the future. Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 09:26:45PM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote:
At 21:15 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote:
On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 09:00:25PM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote:
At 20:54 18/08/2002, Thies C. Arntzen wrote:
BTW: the code we're talking about is neither magic nor very
complex. andi, sorry i you felt me stepping on your feet;-)
And yet you took it from ZE2 a couple of months after it was written, as
opposed to two years ago when ZE1 was already out? Come on, Thies,
sometimes knowing which algorithm to use and where to put the two lines
of
code is the complexity, as it is in this case.
i am working on a zend-extension that needs to know the real
current backtrace. you wrote the ze-extension interface, and
you should know that it's *very*, *very* hard to find the
real callstack from within an extension (all extensions i'm
aware of have do it wrong).
It may sound like a product pitch but it really isn't - did you take a look
at the way the Zend Studio displays stack traces? AFAIK, it's absolutely
accurate, and it doesn't do any magic. I'm not aware of any problems
getting the stack trace right with the extension interface. I can even
help you with that.
look at the opcodes for:
a(b(c()));
function a() {}
function b() {}
function c() {}
and tell me which function is called from which scope. unless
you know something i dont youll see
a()
b()
c()
which is wrong as the correct call-order is
c()
b()
a()
after fiddling with it for a while i looked at the stuff andi
did and found that it can be apllied mostly (there _is_ one
difference) to ZE1, what's wrong with that? do i want credits
for it? NO. do i think this feature will help me and others?
YES.
I didn't think you wanted credit for it, that's obviously not the
issue. The two issues I did mention, coupled with the fact that Andi is
the one who wrote the code in the first place, are the issue, IMHO.
you told me that you didn't even look into the patch. so -no-
you have no technical reason except if you think i'm stupid.
Uhm no. Touching a delicate portion of execute() is dangerous no matter
what. If it's for adding a new feature, then in my humble opinion, it is
not worth it at this point.
we have soo many ppls currently working again on -HEAD and
we'll have a full QA cycle before 4.3. i don't think this
feature will cost us anything that can't be paid for with a
single dime.
your political reason has no standing in my opinion.
To each his own.
^^ you can do that in
closed-source, commercial software. trying to do that in
opensource will drive people away from you...
As it did with PHP 4? Commercial software and opensource software have
lots of things in common, and encouraging people to migrate to the newest
version is one of those things. If you don't, you get into a support
nightmare. It's as simple as that.
it. I did that in lots of features in PHP 4, and frankly, I think it's
very lucky that I did, as the transition from PHP 3 to 4 was VERY
successful. Imagine if we still had to fix PHP 3 bugs on a daily basis.
i do remember countless hours that i put into the transition
from PHP 3 to PHP 4 during that time i became a member of the
PHP Group - but what has that to do with debug_backtrace()?
Nothing specific, it has to do with new features. I added lots of new
features that could be backported to PHP 3, when PHP 3 was a hell of a lot
more popular than 4, when 4 was really just a beta. Forget my code. The
session module could be ported back to PHP 3 with almost no changes, why
wasn't it done? And you know, session functionality is something useful to
literally everyone, and is much more important than a backtrace.
you're comparing bytes and apples here. PHP4 and PHP3 were
sooo different. and i recall that you have backported the new
memory zend memory-manager to php3, didn't you?
If you want it so much and need it so much and are so furious about it,
then whatever, backport it. Let it be noted that I firmly object, and that
Andi objected as well (not sure how firmly :) Let it be also noted that I
will firmly object to further backports of new features in the future.
i think this might be the only feature that justifies
backporting as:
a) the backport is minimal (and already done)
b) the feature is very useful for anyone that develops with
php (which is our primary audience)
tc
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Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
look at the opcodes for:
a(b(c()));
function a() {}
function b() {}
function c() {}
and tell me which function is called from which scope. unless
you know something i dont youll see
a()
b()
c()
which is wrong as the correct call-order is
c()
b()
a()
That makes sense to me, as in order to pass a value to a, it must execute
b to get the parameter, and before it can do that it needs to execute c in
order to pass the param to b ... so the it turns out c,b,a.
--
Dan Hardiker [[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
ADAM Software Systems Engineer
First Creative Ltd
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Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
Here my opinion, in case it is worth anything: Backport debug_backtrace(): +1 Backport all ZE2 changes: -1 Get more momentum behind ZE2: +1 On 08/18/02, Thies C. Arntzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: zeev, this discussion should be pure technical, any political or personal things should be left off! +0 ZE/PHP should not be influenced by politics, but there should be some steering: I agree that most of the ZE2 changes should stay in ZE2 so that there is a larger conceptual difference between engines 1 and 2. It will help people realize that there is a difference, and help reduce the amount of bogus bug reports that are sure to come in if we sneakily introduce ZE2 changes before 5.0. While I want ZE2 ASAP, it is some time away. debug_backtrace() is such an important feature that would increase the productivity of many developers (saving everyone a lot of time and money). Generally speaking, and please don't take offense, I think that one of the problems with ZE2 is that development is slow. I understand that there are several very good reasons for that, but the real problem is that there aren't enough people with enough time, knowledge, skill and familiarity with ZE to help Andi to push it forward (and implement it correctly). Additionally, some things (such as delegation) still don't have a clearly defined spec or consensus of opinion (the RFC is good, but could benefit from Andi and Stig reviewing the details and finalizing them). Short of supplying a replacement programmer to take over his real-world job, gaffer-taping Andi to his workstation and supplying an IV drip of red bull and caffiene, I can't see how else to give ZE2 development more momentum :-)) That's all I'm going to say on this matter; I'll withdraw and get on with my work now (yes, it's 8pm on Sunday - I'm busy too). --Wez. -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
At 21:58 18/08/2002, Wez Furlong wrote: Generally speaking, and please don't take offense, I think that one of the problems with ZE2 is that development is slow. I understand that there are several very good reasons for that, but the real problem is that there aren't enough people with enough time, knowledge, skill and familiarity with ZE to help Andi to push it forward (and implement it correctly). That's actually not correct IMHO. Most of the work is done. Testing and pushing is what's really necessary now. It took a while, but Andi (helped by Stas) managed to implement almost all of the features already. I'm going to dive into the code as well in the near future, and hopefully help implementing the last few features. Additionally, some things (such as delegation) still don't have a clearly defined spec or consensus of opinion (the RFC is good, but could benefit from Andi and Stig reviewing the details and finalizing them). Short of supplying a replacement programmer to take over his real-world job, gaffer-taping Andi to his workstation and supplying an IV drip of red bull and caffiene, I can't see how else to give ZE2 development more momentum :-)) I think that a good start would be laying an 'official' plan for PHP 5. Whenever I mention PHP 5, people always jump at me saying that ZE2 is just one of the things that will be new about it. I even mention it every time I talk about it. That's fine, it really is, but it's time to decide which other things are going to be in it, and decide it while taking the time frame into account as well. Both Andi and myself would REALLY like to see an initial ZE2-enabled version of PHP hitting production sometime early 2003. There's no technical reason for this not to happen - the bulk of the work is already done. There are good 'political' reasons to release PHP 5 early as well - PHP is currently suffering from the limited object model and the bad interaction with external component models, something ZE2 helps to solve. My personal belief is that PHP 5 should not be everything and the kitchen sink. It should contain the ZE2, and the big features that will be production-ready by the time that ZE2-enabled version stabilizes. As Andi said numerous times in the past, there's always version 6 if we want to denote other significant changes. It will even signal that they're more significant. Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
At 07:50 PM 8/18/2002 +0200, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 10:29:47AM -0700, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: I don't think we should stop people from tweaking ZE1. ZE2 is probably more than a year away from realistically being available to a lot of people. It takes a while for people to upgrade, and many will skip the .0 release. If a few tweaks to ZE1 can eliminate peoples' motivation to move to ZE2, then why are you writing ZE2? I obviously don't think that is the case as ZE2 has a number of features people have been asking for. i (of course) agree with derick and rasmus. i'm all for applying the patch as is. if zeev and andi don't want to comment on it for their own reasons i cannot help them. if the patch has a problem it'll be found very soon and it'll be fixed. This isn't a conspiracy but I just completely forgot about your Email. Obviously if it is decided that this patch goes into Engine 1 I will look it over. The last thing I'd do was to allow a buggy patch to enter the Engine. if there is any *technical* reason why this patch is not as good as the debug_backtrace that is in ZE2 - let me know. otherwise i'll commit on monday. I don't think that there are any big technical reasons not to include the patch although it might be a bit buggy though as it hasn't been tested very extensively. I do think you guys should consider the psychological aspects of starting to back port my patches from Engine 2. I personally think that the ZE2 is essential for PHP to prosper in the next few years. The only way it can be pushed is if not only Zeev and I but other people in the community help push it too. It was mentioned that there are a couple of things still missing. I can sum it up that the two main features which are missing are some inheritence problems with nested classes, private methods and a delegation mechanism which was discussed on engine2 for which came up with a pretty decent way of doing which stays with the PHP spirit. These things will be implemented and there is no reason to wait until they are fully implemented in order to start pushing things a bit more. I started with a couple of alpha's and I definitely want to go for another one soon as I fixed some bugs. In the same way we didn't back port some ideas from PHP 4 to PHP 3 I think it's best not to do it now. Because in the end, once we (php-dev) transitions to ZE2 our support will naturally start shifting more and more towards the latest versions (the same as it did in the PHP 3 - PHP 4 transition). After sometime people on php-dev just won't feel like working on old stuff anymore. Therefore, I think we should make the benefit of transition to ZE2 as great as possible so that people migrate. As to the comparison to Apache 2 I think you're far off. The PHP 3 - PHP 4 transition was much smoother than that and the ZE1 - ZE2 transition isn't even between rewrites but just improvements over the old stable version. Once a significant amount of people use it I think it'll take 2-3 months to iron out the bugs. Andi -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PATCH: debug_backtrace() function for 4.3-dev/ZE1
One another suggestion a change in ZE1 that would ease transition to ZE2. making $object-__clone() work on ZE1 (eg. parse equivalant to $object) , (without having to add it to all classes that are likely to need it).. would at least enable code written for ZE1 work with ZE2.. and visa versa... just my thoughts for the morning regards alan -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
