Re: [PEDA] Polygon Filled Planes
Brad, Thanks I was finally able to get at the via by moving all, and yes that was the only way to get at it. However I have been able ot get at a footprints that were out of bounds by selecting outside and it worked. However no matter what I did with this via it would not move it or delete it. Like you said though the move all did work. Now that the via is gone I still need to look at the plane situation. I have deleted the poly planes and that is were I left off, I still need to get back to it, I do hope you are right and that this was all related. Very interesting thing though when gerbers are output, a drill symbol shows up out there in left field for fab dwg and also pads, however I searched the NC Drill file and could not find any entry for the coordinates of that via? (I was also trying to get at it by querry manager and select it by coordinates to no avail.) JaMi, The cntrl del did not work. maybe because of loosing shortcuts. But I have not customozed them at all. I have used other keyboard shotcuts and they worked?? So one problem solved and on to the exception error for move object from polygon plane. Thanks Bob * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Polygon Filled Planes
Ian, Now that I have the via in outer space solved. I was going to just try redoing the plane first, and if that did not work yes I will try an ASCII out and poke around. Thanks Bob * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Polygon Filled Planes
JaMi, Well doing the cntrl delete did not work (unless there is again something diff. about how to do a cntrl delete with Protel) In other words can I use the keyboard delete key or do I need the scizzors icon. Either way though that did not seem to work, however (and I hated to do this) but if I select all and move the entire design to upper right space yes the via does come into view to delete. But I did get another exception error on the related to the move. Still most likely do to the poly plane. I did say no to rebuild after the move but still got the error. After I really get rid of that via ( it did have a net associated with it too) I will delete and redo planes to see if error goes away. Because as it stand now any time you do anything that affects that plane by a move or etc it gives me an exception error. Gerbers seem OK all else seems OK though. Over the next few days I will take a closer look. This was actually another designers job, I need to get another design out before I tackle really trying to solve this problem. I will post as to the ultimate outcome. Bob * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Polygon Filled Planes
Bob, Jami, I can't remember if it is PCB or SCH but one or the other doesn't allow the select outside to work for out of bounds items. The sure fire way is to select all and move the whole works until the out of bounds item becomes visible. The other possible manner to make it work is to select all, then deselect inside (the good items) in your database then move the out of bounds item within the work area. Through a combination of the three methods you will always get anything that is hidden out of bounds. Bob, based upon my experiences I would think that this out of bounds item(s) could definitely be the source of your problem. Sincerely, Brad Velander. Lead PCB Designer Norsat International Inc. Microwave Products Tel (604) 292-9089 (direct line) Fax (604) 292-9010 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.norsat.com -Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 6:32 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: JaMi Smith Subject: Re: [PEDA] Polygon Filled Planes Bob, You can do a Select All, and then Move everything to the right until the whatever it is out there is within the editable area of the PCB, or if you are sure that you want to just dump it do a Select Outside, and enclose the Board and everything you want to keep, and then do a Control Delete to delete everything selected outside, which will delete whatever it is out there. Don't you just love it - Protel will let you move things out there, but not get out there to get rid of them. I've had things lost out there before without causing any problems excepting to gerbers, but who knows, maybe this is related to the other problem. Other than that, your Polygon Plane numbers look OK, unless possibly you have a Polygon Plane out there in left field (or somewhere else). Might want to do a Select Outside and delete everything outside the bounds of the design anyway, just for the heck of it. JaMi * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Polygon Filled Planes
Bob, Cntl-Del will do nothing by itself, if nothing is selected, but Cntl-Del should delete all selected items in 99SE PCB. Try again using Edit Select Outside Area, and then enclosing the PCB, dimensions, title block, notes, etc. (everything you want to save). This should select everything outside the enclosed area, which includes the via or whatever it is out to the left off screen that you can't get to. Then once those things are selected, then do your Cntl-Del to delete everything selected. You might experiment by copying a via or two or some other junk off to the right side of the design somewhere, outside of the enclosed area, and trying the above procedure just to make sure it deletes that junk. If not, you either got a real problem with your database, or your install. Cntl-Del is a keyboard shortcut key combination, and should work unless for some reason you are loosing some or all of your keyboard shortcut keys. I hate to bring up an old issue, but this is just what happened with the old wheel mouse issue, where the second you touched the wheel, all of the keyboard shortcuts went south for the winter. It may well be that you are loosing some or all of your keyboard shortcuts for yet another P99SE problem. Or is it possible that you have customized your own Shortcut Table, and somehow lost or reassigned the Cntl-Del functionality? Check to make sure that you still have PCB:Clear assigned to Ctrl+Delete, as Protel calls it. If all else fails here, you might just want to select everything that you want to keep, and copy it into a new database, just to see if that fixes the problem. JaMi - Original Message - From: Robert M. Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 6:43 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Polygon Filled Planes JaMi, Well doing the cntrl delete did not work (unless there is again something diff. about how to do a cntrl delete with Protel) In other words can I use the keyboard delete key or do I need the scizzors icon. Either way though that did not seem to work, however (and I hated to do this) but if I select all and move the entire design to upper right space yes the via does come into view to delete. But I did get another exception error on the related to the move. Still most likely do to the poly plane. I did say no to rebuild after the move but still got the error. After I really get rid of that via ( it did have a net associated with it too) I will delete and redo planes to see if error goes away. Because as it stand now any time you do anything that affects that plane by a move or etc it gives me an exception error. Gerbers seem OK all else seems OK though. Over the next few days I will take a closer look. This was actually another designers job, I need to get another design out before I tackle really trying to solve this problem. I will post as to the ultimate outcome. Bob chk? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Polygon Filled Planes
Robert, Regarding your problem with Polygon pours, another technique that may be useful is to save the file into ASCII format. I am not sure about this under P99SE but under V3 (or maybe P98) it was certainly true that ASCII file load (called parametric load by the software) did additional parameter and range checking not done during binary load. This was stated at the time to be a useful technique for file issues. The ASCII file can also be used to ferret out stray objects at wild locations, including the classic (but rare these days) ghost polygons - use a capable text editor for this manipulation. Ultimately, you may be best off deleting the poly and reforming it. At time people have had difficulty removing problem polys - this can be done in the ASCII file with care. You need to remove the polygon as well as the tracks that belong to the polygon - identifying the tracks that belong to the poly is not overly difficult. A text editor that supports regular expressions for searches and selections is a great boon. Marking the polygon vertices with track segments or pads before you delete it can really help rebuild it if its placement is critical. Even this is done more easily in ASCII as the snap feature in P99SE is not very good at dealing with polygons (it snaps to the tracks of the poly rather than the boundary). Saving a PCB file as ASCII will loose the hidden links with the Sch and so you will need to rematch by designator following the reload, make sure you save-as binary again and make sure you have correctly synched Sch and PCB before starting the save-as ASCII process (or at least make sure all designators match so you can easily re-match). Maybe something here will be of use to someone, Ian * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Polygon Filled Planes
Jami, OK Polygon Planes is set to 0 grid, .4mm (.016) track width and .2mm (.012) minimum size. 45 deg fill. With these settings I have never seen problems before though. Also one other note we just found out. Ther is what I believe a via out of editable area of board. I am not 100% sure it is a via, though it does have the size of my via holes. It showed up of course when gerbers were done. I can't seem to grab it by querry, or select outside box, or seeing if there was holes at these coordinates in the drill file all to no avail. Could this pad be part of that plane somehow and causing the exception error with the plane. Thanks Bob * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Polygon Filled Planes
Bob, You can do a Select All, and then Move everything to the right until the whatever it is out there is within the editable area of the PCB, or if you are sure that you want to just dump it do a Select Outside, and enclose the Board and everything you want to keep, and then do a Control Delete to delete everything selected outside, which will delete whatever it is out there. Don't you just love it - Protel will let you move things out there, but not get out there to get rid of them. I've had things lost out there before without causing any problems excepting to gerbers, but who knows, maybe this is related to the other problem. Other than that, your Polygon Plane numbers look OK, unless possibly you have a Polygon Plane out there in left field (or somewhere else). Might want to do a Select Outside and delete everything outside the bounds of the design anyway, just for the heck of it. JaMi - Original Message - From: Robert M. Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 5:51 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Polygon Filled Planes Jami, OK Polygon Planes is set to 0 grid, .4mm (.016) track width and .2mm (.012) minimum size. 45 deg fill. With these settings I have never seen problems before though. Also one other note we just found out. Ther is what I believe a via out of editable area of board. I am not 100% sure it is a via, though it does have the size of my via holes. It showed up of course when gerbers were done. I can't seem to grab it by querry, or select outside box, or seeing if there was holes at these coordinates in the drill file all to no avail. Could this pad be part of that plane somehow and causing the exception error with the plane. Thanks Bob * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Polygon Filled Planes
Bob, Please see below, JaMi - Original Message - From: Robert M. Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 7:34 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Polygon Filled Planes JaMi wrote And speaking of Protel reliability, I am not quite sure what exactly Bob ment in his earlier post respecting an exception error about a .dll with respect to pcb which he thought was related to the Polygon Plane, and which apparently no one has really addressed, and just where that plugs into the who issue of Polygon Planes and reliability. Well Guys, I am still getting that error on this one design. It is an exception error and a .dll is mentioned. Can't actually say whether it is related to the polygon filled plane. But whenever there is an attempt to rebuild the large one this error shows up. It can be ignored or close the application. I can capture the exact text of the error tomorrow as I do not have that design home at this time. I was just trying to see if I was missing a step that needed to be done, or if there might be other issues at play. I will try to spend a bit more time with that design tomorrow to possibly shed some more light on this error. It cropped up again because the footprints needed to be unlocked to take care of assembly drawing, an dwhen that is done it wants to rebuild check everything so the error comes back. Thanks Bob It sounds like you may be having some of the same types of crash that have always plagued me in Protel with large Polygon Planes, except that you are getting an exception error message, whereas on my system, Protel would just lock up the system and go south for the winter, forcing me to reboot, which sometimes meant actually pulling the plug out of the wall. The first thing I would ask, is what type of system and what version of Windoze are you using. The second thing, and this actually may be more important, is what are the Plane Settings set at in your Polygon Plane Dialogue Box? If your Grid Size, Track Width, and Minimum Primitive Size, are all set too small, then the actual number of actual little primitives in the Polygon Plane can actually become so massive, that Protel appears to become completely overwhelmed, and crashes as a result. These sizes of the individual primitives, and their resultant number, also can sometimes make Protel appear to go south, even to the point of Not Responding in the Task Manager (possibly dependant on version of Windoze), when in reality it is just temporarily lost in space doing calculations on the massive number of little goodies in the Plane, and given enough time, Protel has actually been known to have returned from such excursions, on occasion. However, if you get an error message, you can be sure it has no intention of returning from being spaced out. Try making the Track Width a little larger, with the Grid Size just a few mils smaller than the Track Width. I typically use a Track Width of 20, and a Grid Size of 15. This may not be optimal, but it works on most of my Planes, although you may need to experiment with even larger numbers to see what works for you. You might actually want to use some real large numbers, including trying a Grid Size that is larger than your Track Width, just to see how it affects your getting the exception error, and then optimize things if that resolves the problem. I am curious to know if this will help. JaMi * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Polygon Filled Planes
Well, For now, The version of OS is Win2000 ProServer Win 2000 Pro Pro Server is a slower 500MHz machine w/128M mem, the Pro is a 1.6G P4 unit with 128M mem. I have not seen it happen yet on XP which at home here. As far as plane settings go I will look and get back to you but in all honesty I have done quite few other large pos planes with grid at zero and say .010 or .020 track widths with no ill affects or slow down. I will dig deeper though. I did not get into office today where that design is so will have some info in am about this. Thanks Bob * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Polygon Filled Planes
Thanks Guys, I would tend to agree about the extra work with multiple big pieces. It really seems to work well if you keep that mechanical layer outline of the big plane for ref. Because by the statement of (1) place the inner pours and fill them. (2) place the outer pour and fill it. This would confirm it for me, I was not really 100% sure I needed to remove the big plane first for editing inner planes or whether it was a problem with my system. But the above 12 would then imply if I need to change one of the small-inner pours I really do need to delete the outer first then fix inner and fill it, then replace outer and fill it. Usually the outer is an easy shape to recreate so this should be less work than dealing with multiple planes to fix one small inner plane. If the big one is gone while editing the inners ones it does seem to work very well. Thanks Bob Wolfe * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Polygon Filled Planes
Abd, Please see below, JaMi - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Polygon Filled Planes At 03:31 PM 1/20/2003, JaMi Smith wrote: Respecting your having one larger Polygon Plane over several smaller ones, I am assuming that you are speaking of the case where the smaller ones are of a different net. If this is the case, you would then be relying on Protel to not flood over the smaller Polygon Planes simply be virtue of the net being different. While this may in fact work, I myself would not rely on it, and would not trust Protel to handle it properly in all cases, and would try to work around the problem in a different manner. The method is reliable. Remember, if Protel were to pour incorrectly, it would create error reports. Polygon pours are checked as if they were what they are: a pile of individual lines. I am not quite sure that I want to buy into the reliability just yet. Protel has been known to do some pretty strange things at some pretty strange times, and for me, reliability must be demonstrated. And speaking of Protel reliability, I am not quite sure what exactly Bob ment in his earlier post respecting an exception error about a .dll with respect to pcb which he thought was related to the Polygon Plane, and which apparently no one has really addressed, and just where that plugs into the who issue of Polygon Planes and reliability. I use large Polygons as fills on signal layers on most of the high speed things that I do (usually connected to ground or a supply), and aside from them bringing Protel to its knees speed-wise, reliability-wise they seem to be responsible for a large number of the crashes that I have had with Protel, and hence I am very careful with them, and take my time placing them. I find that if I take my time here, that I do not have to come back and change them or redo them. What I have been successful in doing in the past, and more importantly what I feel comfortable and confident about doing, is simply this: [...] While it takes a little more work to do it this way, I never have to rely on Protel to understand what I really want it to do, and there is no chance for error. The method which Mr. Smith describes seems to me to be a *lot* more work. The previously given method I will repeat: (1) place the inner pours and fill them. (2) place the outer pour and fill it. Yes they do take more time this way, but we are only talking a few minutes more for each large Polygon, and if you can't spend a few extra minutes on doing something carefully, then you must not put too much care into your boards. One of the benefits that I forgot to mention about doing it this way, is that you have complete control over your gaps in between Polygon Plane segments, which allows you do handle different areas differently if you so desire. This method also prevents minor catastrophes which might happen if I accidently deleted or renamed an inner Polygon Plane segment and then repoured an outer Polygon Plane Segment. The catastrophe is truly minor. If one is truly concerned about a pour being accidentally changed (remember, DRC will still detect shorts and opens), one can simply reduce the pour to primitives. (Tools/Convert/etc.). And fixing it can take more time than it would have taken to do it the other way to begin with. So how much time did you really save or lose? Isn't the time issue really minor here anyway? What if that catastrophe happens to the next guy who works on the board, and he doesn't understand it? In short, you can draw larger Polygon Planes in smaller overlapping segments, providing that they have the same net, and it is actually preferable to have some overlap to prevent a gap in the gerbers, but it is not advisable to overlap Polygon Planes which are not intended to be the same net. Well, it doesn't hurt for there to be an overlap, certainly, but if one is designing on-grid using consistent units such that round-off doesn't bite you, it isn't necessary. (i.e., if one uses, say, a 1 mil grid for primitive placements and uses imperial units for gerber generation and the line widths are in mils, no overlap is necessary, the films will fill completely with zero gap; in fact, we recommend setting grid to 0 for polygon pours, which informs the pour routines to place track at zero clearance. Is this the Lomax Virtual Short now applied to Polygons? I overlap simply because I have had Protel bite me on this one in the past, and have actually had a very narrow little gap of about 0.010 and about 0.200 long, show up between two adjoining segments in a small finished board, which fortunately was not related to functionality, although it looked like s***. I tried to find a reason for it in the Protel database and in the gerbers, all of which said it shouldn't have happened, but rather I
Re: [PEDA] Polygon Filled Planes
Bob, Please see below, JaMi - Original Message - From: Robert M. Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 6:22 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Polygon Filled Planes . . . This would confirm it for me, I was not really 100% sure I needed to remove the big plane first for editing inner planes or whether it was a problem with my system. But the above 12 would then imply if I need to change one of the small-inner pours I really do need to delete the outer first then fix inner and fill it, then replace outer and fill it. Usually the outer is an easy shape to recreate so this should be less work than dealing with multiple planes to fix one small inner plane. If the big one is gone while editing the inners ones it does seem to work very well. Respecting whether or not you need to delete or move a big plane or outer plane so that you can work on some area, either an inner plane in your case, or simply some traces or component placements or something similar, I have found the following little trick very effective. Notwithstanding that there is a plow through planes option somewhere, when I am working with a Polygon Plane on a signal layer, and I temporarily need some space around the area that I am working so that I can move or add something, or do some other editing, I simply select a track segment of some different net than the Polygon that is in the area on the same layer, and temporarily change its width to gargantuian, say 500 mils or 1000 mils. I then repour the large Polygon, which will now repour around the large track segment. I then go back and reset the track segment to it's original size, and this gives me a large open hole in the middle of the Polygon Plane where I can now work unobstructed. When I am all done, I do a final repour of the original Polygon which will now fill in around the area that I was working in. While this may sound like a lot of work or steps, it really isn't, and it opens up the Polygon so that I can work on it where I need to, and also see things on other layers that woulf otherwise be obscured, and it should also work well for your situation of a small inner Polygon Plane also. Hope this is of help, JaMi * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Polygon Filled Planes
JaMi wrote And speaking of Protel reliability, I am not quite sure what exactly Bob ment in his earlier post respecting an exception error about a .dll with respect to pcb which he thought was related to the Polygon Plane, and which apparently no one has really addressed, and just where that plugs into the who issue of Polygon Planes and reliability. Well Guys, I am still getting that error on this one design. It is an exception error and a .dll is mentioned. Can't actually say whether it is related to the polygon filled plane. But whenever there is an attempt to rebuild the large one this error shows up. It can be ignored or close the application. I can capture the exact text of the error tomorrow as I do not have that design home at this time. I was just trying to see if I was missing a step that needed to be done, or if there might be other issues at play. I will try to spend a bit more time with that design tomorrow to possibly shed some more light on this error. It cropped up again because the footprints needed to be unlocked to take care of assembly drawing, an dwhen that is done it wants to rebuild check everything so the error comes back. Thanks Bob * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Polygon Filled Planes
Bob, I am assuming firstly that we are really talking about Planes made up of Polygon Fills, as opposed to real Planes with Split Planes within them. I have done this many times when I want to have a Plane fill in around things on a routing layer, and have even done it with several different Planes (of different nets) located (or even nested) on the same layer. Respecting your having one larger Polygon Plane over several smaller ones, I am assuming that you are speaking of the case where the smaller ones are of a different net. If this is the case, you would then be relying on Protel to not flood over the smaller Polygon Planes simply be virtue of the net being different. While this may in fact work, I myself would not rely on it, and would not trust Protel to handle it properly in all cases, and would try to work around the problem in a different manner. What I have been successful in doing in the past, and more importantly what I feel comfortable and confident about doing, is simply this: Start with an outline of how you want to break up your Polygon Plane on an unused Mechanical Layer, using tracks (lines) of the appropriate thickness for the actual gap between the Plane segments. Place each little Polygon Plane segment where it belongs, using your outline as a guide to draw each segment. Where one Polygon Plane segment completely surrounds a smaller Plane segment, draw the outer Plane segment as a comply seperate segment which completely surrounds the smaller Plane segment, but does not overlap it, and where the the larger outer Plane segment will actually overlap itself where it comes back on its starting point. This larger outer Polygon Plane segment, which surrounds the inner Plane segments (but does not overlap them), can itself be made up of smaller Plane segments with the same net and which all have overlaping edges, so that there will not be any gaps in the resultant gerbers. Using many segments for your larger outer Planes (or Plane segments with complx shapes) makes things go a little easier if there are tricky outlines you are trying to follow, and these can always be overlapped where they join up to prevent any gaps in the gerbers, providing they are of the same net. When you are happy with the results, don't forget to delete your outline from the unused Mechanical layer, and turn it back off. While it takes a little more work to do it this way, I never have to rely on Protel to understand what I really want it to do, and there is no chance for error. This method also prevents minor catastrophies which might happen if I accidently deleted or renamed an inner Polygon Plane segment and then repoured an outer Polygon Plane Segment. In short, you can draw larger Polygon Planes in smaller overlapping segments, providing that they have the same net, and it is actually preferable to have some overlap to prevent a gap in the gerbers, but it is not advisable to overlap Polygon Planes which are not intended to be the same net. I hope that this answers your question. JaMi - Original Message - From: Robert M. Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 11:32 AM Subject: [PEDA] Polygon Filled Planes Hello, I believe there was a thread on this subject which also had split neg. planes within its thread. I never really ended up with an answer. So dealing with polygons and not split planes, what is the proper way to handle plane within plane. I do remember something about not overlapping, but thought that the discussion was slpit planes??? My real question is if I have one or more smaller ploygon planes within a large plane that covers almost the whole board, do I need to delete the large plane first then edit the small planes vertices, then redraw the large polygon plane??? I am getting some errors on system level, if you try to touch the big plane to let it rebiuld it spits out an exception error, however if I do delete big plane first, then fix small planes, then redo big plane, all seems well. I do however created a mechanical layer outline of the planes so it is easy to reproduce the large plane. Weird thing about this though is that on a much slower machine there is no problem at all. Any help with proper procedure on many polygon planes will be appriciated. Thanks Bob Wolfe * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: *
Re: [PEDA] Polygon Filled Planes
At 03:31 PM 1/20/2003, JaMi Smith wrote: Respecting your having one larger Polygon Plane over several smaller ones, I am assuming that you are speaking of the case where the smaller ones are of a different net. If this is the case, you would then be relying on Protel to not flood over the smaller Polygon Planes simply be virtue of the net being different. While this may in fact work, I myself would not rely on it, and would not trust Protel to handle it properly in all cases, and would try to work around the problem in a different manner. The method is reliable. Remember, if Protel were to pour incorrectly, it would create error reports. Polygon pours are checked as if they were what they are: a pile of individual lines. What I have been successful in doing in the past, and more importantly what I feel comfortable and confident about doing, is simply this: [...] While it takes a little more work to do it this way, I never have to rely on Protel to understand what I really want it to do, and there is no chance for error. The method which Mr. Smith describes seems to me to be a *lot* more work. The previously given method I will repeat: (1) place the inner pours and fill them. (2) place the outer pour and fill it. This method also prevents minor catastrophies which might happen if I accidently deleted or renamed an inner Polygon Plane segment and then repoured an outer Polygon Plane Segment. The catastrophe is truly minor. If one is truly concerned about a pour being accidentally changed (remember, DRC will still detect shorts and opens), one can simply reduce the pour to primitives. (Tools/Convert/etc.). In short, you can draw larger Polygon Planes in smaller overlapping segments, providing that they have the same net, and it is actually preferable to have some overlap to prevent a gap in the gerbers, but it is not advisable to overlap Polygon Planes which are not intended to be the same net. Well, it doesn't hurt for there to be an overlap, certainly, but if one is designing on-grid using consistent units such that round-off doesn't bite you, it isn't necessary. (i.e., if one uses, say, a 1 mil grid for primitive placements and uses imperial units for gerber generation and the line widths are in mils, no overlap is necessary, the films will fill completely with zero gap; in fact, we recommend setting grid to 0 for polygon pours, which informs the pour routines to place track at zero clearance. Mr. Smith's method works, to be sure; and if it is simple to break up the outer pour, it could also be practical, but there is no more danger in using pour sequence to control nested pours, mistakes will stand out like a sore thumb. One caveat: if you move the planes involved, the automatic repour may not produce the desired results. But this is very likely to result in open circuits. If one will need to move a selection including nested pours, it might be a good idea to reduce the inner pours to free primitives first. Note that free primitives do *not* increase the database size since they are already there as part of the pours. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Polygon Filled Planes
Bob, There's no problem with having polygon fills overlapping. The sequence would be to establish the inner fill first and then the larger fill will flow around the first. As for editing, temporally move the larger fill off the pwb to edit the smaller fills. Be sure to not rebuild the larger fill (it'll disappear) or place it onto a place holder via which has the same net associated to it. I'm unsure what your error messages are about, but you might consider breaking up the large poly fill into smaller overlapping ones?? John Robert M. Wolfe wrote: Hello, I believe there was a thread on this subject which also had split neg. planes within its thread. I never really ended up with an answer. So dealing with polygons and not split planes, what is the proper way to handle plane within plane. I do remember something about not overlapping, but thought that the discussion was slpit planes??? My real question is if I have one or more smaller ploygon planes within a large plane that covers almost the whole board, do I need to delete the large plane first then edit the small planes vertices, then redraw the large polygon plane??? I am getting some errors on system level, if you try to touch the big plane to let it rebiuld it spits out an exception error, however if I do delete big plane first, then fix small planes, then redo big plane, all seems well. I do however created a mechanical layer outline of the planes so it is easy to reproduce the large plane. Weird thing about this though is that on a much slower machine there is no problem at all. Any help with proper procedure on many polygon planes will be appriciated. Thanks Bob Wolfe -- John M. Cardone Electro-Mechanical Dsgn. Engr. Grp. M/S 278-100 Mechanical Engineering Section, 352 4800 Oak Grove Dr.NASA / Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, Ca 91109MailTo:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 818.354.5407 Fax: 818.393.6400 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Polygon Filled Planes
At 02:32 PM 1/17/2003, Robert M. Wolfe wrote: Hello, I believe there was a thread on this subject which also had split neg. planes within its thread. I never really ended up with an answer. So dealing with polygons and not split planes, what is the proper way to handle plane within plane. I do remember something about not overlapping, but thought that the discussion was slpit planes??? Protel 99SE does not support nested planes, not directly. Be careful about terminology, split planes and polygon (pours) are not the same animal. My real question is if I have one or more smaller ploygon planes within a large plane that covers almost the whole board, do I need to delete the large plane first then edit the small planes vertices, then redraw the large polygon plane??? As to polygon pours, you can move the large plane to a mech layer (be sure to turn of remove dead copper first or would will get one of the famous invisible polygons. Then pour the smaller enclosed planes. Then return the larger plane to your copper layer and pour it. It will not pour over the enclosed planes, assuming that they are not the same net I am getting some errors on system level, if you try to touch the big plane to let it rebiuld it spits out an exception error, however if I do delete big plane first, then fix small planes, then redo big plane, all seems well. I do however created a mechanical layer outline of the planes so it is easy to reproduce the large plane. Weird thing about this though is that on a much slower machine there is no problem at all. Two distinct problems here. (1) bug., (2) how to deal with enclosed polygon planes. You don't need to draw a separate mech outline. Instead, move the polygon to a mech layer as described above, repour, then back and repour. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
