Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] NSS Publication / scam?

[Linda Starr]

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 23, 2018, at 12:14 AM, Linda Starr  wrote:
> 
> Thank you, Diana. The NSS did give you all notice. Read your NSS News. Be a 
> little more tolerant and teach tolerance except of people who are not 
> tolerant of immigrants (you are one), children who can’t read or write and 
> those who pollute and misuse natural resources.
> Linda Starr
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jul 19, 2018, at 4:06 PM, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
>> 
>> Diana, current members update this yearly when they renew, or if they renew 
>> multiple years, then when it expires.  If someone chose to let their 
>> membership lapse, then this is unsolicited contact.
>> 
>> I understand the reason for this, but it was not handled properly, in my 
>> opinion and I certainly didn't opt in for any phone calls at any time.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 5:52 PM Diana Tomchick 
>>>  wrote:
>>> ​Hi,
>>> 
>>> The NSS, like lots of volunteer organizations, needs to know who are the 
>>> people that are interested in receiving information from the organization. 
>>> Since many people change email addresses and phone numbers, after a few 
>>> years, the database is no longer current. This is an effective way to 
>>> update the database by a professional company. It's impractical to ask a 
>>> group of volunteer cavers to contact ~10,000 people to ask them about their 
>>> personal information--and imagine how upset y'all would be if you knew it 
>>> was just some random volunteer cavers trying to collect this information.
>>> 
>>> Why does the NSS need this information? As with most organizations these 
>>> days, the membership numbers are decreasing. In order for the NSS to stay 
>>> relevant to their current members and to encourage people to renew their 
>>> memberships, they need to be able to provide information to them. 
>>> 
>>> I would hope that as the fine cavers you all are in the Southwest Region of 
>>> the NSS, that you would not want to deny the NSS the opportunity to 
>>> interact with you in the future.
>>> 
>>> Diana
>>> 
>>> **
>>> Diana R. Tomchick
>>> Professor
>>> Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry
>>> University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
>>> 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
>>> Rm. ND10.214A
>>> Dallas, TX 75390-8816
>>> diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
>>> (214) 645-6383 (phone)
>>> (214) 645-6353 (fax)
>>>  
>>> From: Texascavers  on behalf of 
>>> Michael Gibbons <6453...@gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 5:24 PM
>>> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
>>> Cc: Steve Peerman; SWR Cavers Group; Sandia Grotto; Allen Wright; Lee 
>>> Skinner
>>> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] NSS Publication / scam?
>>>  
>>> I phoned in. I authorized use of name, phone number and email.
>>> Asked if I wanted a directory, I said no. It wasn't a hard sell and they 
>>> weren't after ant information that I seem sensitive.
>>> I think it's innocuous and that they are doing just what they were hired to 
>>> do. Compile a directory and nothing more. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Jul 19, 2018, 5:16 PM Stephen Fleming  wrote:
>>>> "Do not call' doesn't apply, since the contractor presumably is not the 
>>>> one making the calls. 
>>>> 
>>>> However, regarding the list, there is an exemption for non-profits. But, 
>>>> while the contractor is working for a non-profit, the company itself is a 
>>>> for-profit entity. It would be an interesting question whether they would 
>>>> get a pass due to the NSS overhead. 
>>>> 
>>>> Unsolicited emails pretty much follow the same scheme.
>>>> 
>>>> Also, calls/emails are not prohibited for 'customers' who have a business 
>>>> relationship with the caller, something we all have by virtue of our 
>>>> membership.
>>>> 
>>>> Less clear would be whether lapsed members could be called/emailed without 
>>>> violating restrictions. I think a case could be made that a lapsed member 
>>>> no longer has any relationship to the organization despite how desperately 
>>>> the NSS might want them back.
>>>> 
>>>> Regardless of the above (and the inapplicability of do not call/email in 
>>>> this instance) it

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] NSS Publication / scam?

[Michael Gibbons]

Charles, I don't know you nor do I know Linda. I hope that was an inside
joke of some sort.
If not, I apologise for that comment. Not only is there no room for that
sort of misguided logic in our organization, there's no room for it in
addressing anyone.
I regret you were target of thoughtless derogetory speak.

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 10:41 AM Charles Loving  wrote:

> As an immigrant myself I never comply with any of those demands or deals.
> I am a Brit by birth so I had to learn French, German and Latin before I
> came to the EEUU.
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:14 AM, Linda Starr  wrote:
>
>> Thank you, Diana. The NSS did give you all notice. Read your NSS News. Be
>> a little more tolerant and teach tolerance except of people who are not
>> tolerant of immigrants (you are one), children who can’t read or write and
>> those who pollute and misuse natural resources.
>> Linda Starr
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jul 19, 2018, at 4:06 PM, Charles Goldsmith 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Diana, current members update this yearly when they renew, or if they
>> renew multiple years, then when it expires.  If someone chose to let their
>> membership lapse, then this is unsolicited contact.
>>
>> I understand the reason for this, but it was not handled properly, in my
>> opinion and I certainly didn't opt in for any phone calls at any time.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 5:52 PM Diana Tomchick <
>> diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> ​Hi,
>>>
>>>
>>> The NSS, like lots of volunteer organizations, needs to know who are the
>>> people that are interested in receiving information from the organization.
>>> Since many people change email addresses and phone numbers, after a few
>>> years, the database is no longer current. This is an effective way to
>>> update the database by a professional company. It's impractical to ask a
>>> group of volunteer cavers to contact ~10,000 people to ask them about their
>>> personal information--and imagine how upset y'all would be if you knew it
>>> was just some random volunteer cavers trying to collect this information.
>>>
>>>
>>> Why does the NSS need this information? As with most organizations these
>>> days, the membership numbers are decreasing. In order for the NSS to stay
>>> relevant to their current members and to encourage people to renew their
>>> memberships, they need to be able to provide information to them.
>>>
>>>
>>> I would hope that as the fine cavers you all are in the Southwest Region
>>> of the NSS, that you would not want to deny the NSS the opportunity to
>>> interact with you in the future.
>>>
>>>
>>> Diana
>>>
>>>
>>> **
>>> Diana R. Tomchick
>>> Professor
>>> Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry
>>> University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
>>> 5323 Harry Hines Blvd
>>> <https://maps.google.com/?q=5323+Harry+Hines+Blvd=gmail=g>.
>>> Rm. ND10.214A
>>> Dallas, TX 75390-8816
>>> diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
>>> (214) 645-6383 (phone)
>>> (214) 645-6353 (fax)
>>> --
>>> *From:* Texascavers  on behalf of
>>> Michael Gibbons <6453...@gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 19, 2018 5:24 PM
>>> *To:* texascavers@texascavers.com
>>> *Cc:* Steve Peerman; SWR Cavers Group; Sandia Grotto; Allen Wright; Lee
>>> Skinner
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] NSS Publication / scam?
>>>
>>> I phoned in. I authorized use of name, phone number and email.
>>> Asked if I wanted a directory, I said no. It wasn't a hard sell and they
>>> weren't after ant information that I seem sensitive.
>>> I think it's innocuous and that they are doing just what they were hired
>>> to do. Compile a directory and nothing more.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 19, 2018, 5:16 PM Stephen Fleming 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Do not call' doesn't apply, since the contractor presumably is not the
>>>> one making the calls.
>>>>
>>>> However, regarding the list, there is an exemption for non-profits.
>>>> But, while the contractor is working for a non-profit, the company itself
>>>> is a for-profit entity. It would be an interesting question whether they
>>>> would get a pass due to the NSS overhead.
>>>>
>>&

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] NSS Publication / scam?

[Charles Loving]

As an immigrant myself I never comply with any of those demands or deals. I
am a Brit by birth so I had to learn French, German and Latin before I came
to the EEUU.

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:14 AM, Linda Starr  wrote:

> Thank you, Diana. The NSS did give you all notice. Read your NSS News. Be
> a little more tolerant and teach tolerance except of people who are not
> tolerant of immigrants (you are one), children who can’t read or write and
> those who pollute and misuse natural resources.
> Linda Starr
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 19, 2018, at 4:06 PM, Charles Goldsmith 
> wrote:
>
> Diana, current members update this yearly when they renew, or if they
> renew multiple years, then when it expires.  If someone chose to let their
> membership lapse, then this is unsolicited contact.
>
> I understand the reason for this, but it was not handled properly, in my
> opinion and I certainly didn't opt in for any phone calls at any time.
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 5:52 PM Diana Tomchick  utsouthwestern.edu> wrote:
>
>> ​Hi,
>>
>>
>> The NSS, like lots of volunteer organizations, needs to know who are the
>> people that are interested in receiving information from the organization.
>> Since many people change email addresses and phone numbers, after a few
>> years, the database is no longer current. This is an effective way to
>> update the database by a professional company. It's impractical to ask a
>> group of volunteer cavers to contact ~10,000 people to ask them about their
>> personal information--and imagine how upset y'all would be if you knew it
>> was just some random volunteer cavers trying to collect this information.
>>
>>
>> Why does the NSS need this information? As with most organizations these
>> days, the membership numbers are decreasing. In order for the NSS to stay
>> relevant to their current members and to encourage people to renew their
>> memberships, they need to be able to provide information to them.
>>
>>
>> I would hope that as the fine cavers you all are in the Southwest Region
>> of the NSS, that you would not want to deny the NSS the opportunity to
>> interact with you in the future.
>>
>>
>> Diana
>>
>>
>> **
>> Diana R. Tomchick
>> Professor
>> Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry
>> University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
>> 5323 Harry Hines Blvd
>> <https://maps.google.com/?q=5323+Harry+Hines+Blvd=gmail=g>.
>> Rm. ND10.214A
>> Dallas, TX 75390-8816
>> diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
>> (214) 645-6383 (phone)
>> (214) 645-6353 (fax)
>> --------------
>> *From:* Texascavers  on behalf of
>> Michael Gibbons <6453...@gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 19, 2018 5:24 PM
>> *To:* texascavers@texascavers.com
>> *Cc:* Steve Peerman; SWR Cavers Group; Sandia Grotto; Allen Wright; Lee
>> Skinner
>> *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] NSS Publication / scam?
>>
>> I phoned in. I authorized use of name, phone number and email.
>> Asked if I wanted a directory, I said no. It wasn't a hard sell and they
>> weren't after ant information that I seem sensitive.
>> I think it's innocuous and that they are doing just what they were hired
>> to do. Compile a directory and nothing more.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 19, 2018, 5:16 PM Stephen Fleming  wrote:
>>
>>> "Do not call' doesn't apply, since the contractor presumably is not the
>>> one making the calls.
>>>
>>> However, regarding the list, there is an exemption for non-profits. But,
>>> while the contractor is working for a non-profit, the company itself is a
>>> for-profit entity. It would be an interesting question whether they would
>>> get a pass due to the NSS overhead.
>>>
>>> Unsolicited emails pretty much follow the same scheme.
>>>
>>> Also, calls/emails are not prohibited for 'customers' who have a
>>> business relationship with the caller, something we all have by virtue of
>>> our membership.
>>>
>>> Less clear would be whether lapsed members could be called/emailed
>>> without violating restrictions. I think a case could be made that a lapsed
>>> member no longer has any relationship to the organization despite how
>>> desperately the NSS might want them back.
>>>
>>> Regardless of the above (and the inapplicability of do not call/email in
>>> this instance) it doesn't mean the NSS can do anything it wants with the
>>> priva

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] NSS Publication / scam?

[Linda Starr]

Thank you, Diana. The NSS did give you all notice. Read your NSS News. Be a 
little more tolerant and teach tolerance except of people who are not tolerant 
of immigrants (you are one), children who can’t read or write and those who 
pollute and misuse natural resources.
Linda Starr


Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 19, 2018, at 4:06 PM, Charles Goldsmith  wrote:
> 
> Diana, current members update this yearly when they renew, or if they renew 
> multiple years, then when it expires.  If someone chose to let their 
> membership lapse, then this is unsolicited contact.
> 
> I understand the reason for this, but it was not handled properly, in my 
> opinion and I certainly didn't opt in for any phone calls at any time.
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 5:52 PM Diana Tomchick 
>>  wrote:
>> ​Hi,
>> 
>> The NSS, like lots of volunteer organizations, needs to know who are the 
>> people that are interested in receiving information from the organization. 
>> Since many people change email addresses and phone numbers, after a few 
>> years, the database is no longer current. This is an effective way to update 
>> the database by a professional company. It's impractical to ask a group of 
>> volunteer cavers to contact ~10,000 people to ask them about their personal 
>> information--and imagine how upset y'all would be if you knew it was just 
>> some random volunteer cavers trying to collect this information.
>> 
>> Why does the NSS need this information? As with most organizations these 
>> days, the membership numbers are decreasing. In order for the NSS to stay 
>> relevant to their current members and to encourage people to renew their 
>> memberships, they need to be able to provide information to them. 
>> 
>> I would hope that as the fine cavers you all are in the Southwest Region of 
>> the NSS, that you would not want to deny the NSS the opportunity to interact 
>> with you in the future.
>> 
>> Diana
>> 
>> **
>> Diana R. Tomchick
>> Professor
>> Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry
>> University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
>> 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
>> Rm. ND10.214A
>> Dallas, TX 75390-8816
>> diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
>> (214) 645-6383 (phone)
>> (214) 645-6353 (fax)
>>  
>> From: Texascavers  on behalf of Michael 
>> Gibbons <6453...@gmail.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 5:24 PM
>> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
>> Cc: Steve Peerman; SWR Cavers Group; Sandia Grotto; Allen Wright; Lee Skinner
>> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] NSS Publication / scam?
>>  
>> I phoned in. I authorized use of name, phone number and email.
>> Asked if I wanted a directory, I said no. It wasn't a hard sell and they 
>> weren't after ant information that I seem sensitive.
>> I think it's innocuous and that they are doing just what they were hired to 
>> do. Compile a directory and nothing more. 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Thu, Jul 19, 2018, 5:16 PM Stephen Fleming  wrote:
>>> "Do not call' doesn't apply, since the contractor presumably is not the one 
>>> making the calls. 
>>> 
>>> However, regarding the list, there is an exemption for non-profits. But, 
>>> while the contractor is working for a non-profit, the company itself is a 
>>> for-profit entity. It would be an interesting question whether they would 
>>> get a pass due to the NSS overhead. 
>>> 
>>> Unsolicited emails pretty much follow the same scheme.
>>> 
>>> Also, calls/emails are not prohibited for 'customers' who have a business 
>>> relationship with the caller, something we all have by virtue of our 
>>> membership.
>>> 
>>> Less clear would be whether lapsed members could be called/emailed without 
>>> violating restrictions. I think a case could be made that a lapsed member 
>>> no longer has any relationship to the organization despite how desperately 
>>> the NSS might want them back.
>>> 
>>> Regardless of the above (and the inapplicability of do not call/email in 
>>> this instance) it doesn't mean the NSS can do anything it wants with the 
>>> private information gleaned from our member status. 
>>> 
>>> As events continue to repeatedly demonstrate, not only is direct hacking of 
>>> PII databases a growing problem, but also misuse of data released to 
>>> outside entities. You would think they'd notice the problems Facebook is in 
>>> with poor handling of PII (for which FB also had assura

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] NSS Publication / scam?

[Jacqueline Thomas]

I finally responded to the yellow postcard today, and updated Kel’s information 
also. The young woman I spoke with was pleasant and not even remotely pushy. 
She gave me the prices of both the hard copy and the digital version, we 
chatted a bit, and that was that. No sale pitch at all. I was polite to her and 
she was polite right back. I think sometimes with these folks you get what you 
project.

I’m not purchasing anything but for someone who has been caving for a long time 
and has lost track of more than a few individuals a directory of everyone who 
had ever been an NSS member would be of value. My high school put together such 
a directory a few years back and it has been useful.

Regarding privacy, if a company that produces a directory of this type did not 
take privacy seriously it would not around for more than one directory. This 
company has produced more than one such directory and is still in business so 
I’m not particularly concerned. Jacq. 


J. LaRue Thomas
jlrtho...@verizon.net


> On Jul 20, 2018, at 9:18 AM, Michael Gibbons <6453...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Apparently you didn't read my email.  An option to reply is to call them.  
> Which I did.  It was a pleasant experience.  They verified my info and asked 
> what info I  authorized to be included in the publication. 
> They asked my if I wished to purchase a directory and I told them not at this 
> time.  And that was it. 
> I'm proud to be a member of the NSS
> and am happy to include my contact info.  Perhaps one day I might find 
> someone I once knew through this effort. Perhaps someone will need a place to 
> stay or help with a broken auto while cruising through San Antonio and I'm 
> the only one listed.  I'd be able to help them. 
> I doubt the motives of the NSS are nefarious and the ownership of the company 
> collecting the information is contractually obliged not to deceminate our 
> information to any other entities save our own. 
> The solution to not having your information compromised is to choose not to 
> participate. 
> All this pissing  and moaning is petty and becoming tiresome. 
> Just opt out. That simple. 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2018, 4:04 PM Stephen Fleming  wrote:
> It is a marketing thing authorized by the NSS.
> 
> The NSS says it is costing the organization no money and the contractor funds 
> the effort from sales of the rather pricey merchandise.
> 
> However, the NSS will get a cut of proceeds: "This is NOT a significant fund 
> raiser for NSS, thought [sic] we do get a small commission on sales." 
> 
> The percentage of return is not stated, and the postcard is disingenuous in 
> not revealing this financial arrangement. You have to search the NSS website 
> to find that tidbit.
> 
> Regardless, I won't be calling or participating; the NSS knows how to contact 
> me and they already have everything they need to know.
> 
> Allen's listing of the questions asked goes way beyond basic caver info and 
> seeks information the NSS has no business collecting.
> 
> I put this thing in the same category as telemarketers. Unwelcome and not 
> tolerated.
> 
> I did not opt-in for the NSS to release my contact information, even to a 
> contractor, for such a use. The fact that I can decide not to participate 
> pales beside the NSS misusing my personal data.
> 
> Stephen
> 13727 RL FE
> 
> 
> 

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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] NSS Publication / scam?

[Michael Gibbons]

Apparently you didn't read my email.  An option to reply is to call them.
Which I did.  It was a pleasant experience.  They verified my info and
asked what info I  authorized to be included in the publication.
They asked my if I wished to purchase a directory and I told them not at
this time.  And that was it.
I'm proud to be a member of the NSS
and am happy to include my contact info.  Perhaps one day I might find
someone I once knew through this effort. Perhaps someone will need a place
to stay or help with a broken auto while cruising through San Antonio and
I'm the only one listed.  I'd be able to help them.
I doubt the motives of the NSS are nefarious and the ownership of the
company collecting the information is contractually obliged not to
deceminate our information to any other entities save our own.
The solution to not having your information compromised is to choose not to
participate.
All this pissing  and moaning is petty and becoming tiresome.
Just opt out. That simple.


On Thu, Jul 19, 2018, 4:04 PM Stephen Fleming  wrote:

> It is a marketing thing authorized by the NSS.
>
> The NSS says it is costing the organization no money and the contractor
> funds the effort from sales of the rather pricey merchandise.
>
> However, the NSS will get a cut of proceeds: "This is NOT a significant
> fund raiser for NSS, thought [sic] we do get a small commission on sales."
>
> The percentage of return is not stated, and the postcard is disingenuous
> in not revealing this financial arrangement. You have to search the NSS
> website to find that tidbit.
>
> Regardless, I won't be calling or participating; the NSS knows how to
> contact me and they already have everything they need to know.
>
> Allen's listing of the questions asked goes way beyond basic caver info
> and seeks information the NSS has no business collecting.
>
> I put this thing in the same category as telemarketers. Unwelcome and not
> tolerated.
>
> I did not opt-in for the NSS to release my contact information, even to a
> contractor, for such a use. The fact that I can decide not to participate
> pales beside the NSS misusing my personal data.
>
> Stephen
> 13727 RL FE
>
>
>
> On 7/19/2018 14:25, Steve Peerman wrote:
>
> Allen,
> It’s not a scam, but you are under no obligation to buy the product that
> they are making.  It is supposed to be an NSS directory of all NSS members
> past and present.  I submitted my information, but I didn’t buy the book.
> It seems rather pricey to me.
>
>
> On Jul 19, 2018, at 2:22 PM, Allen  wrote:
>
> Hey all,
> Just received a postcard from some publishing company about the NSS
> members manual.  Anyone else receive one? Its a yellow postcard with the
> NSS logo on it. It has a title of "Verification of caver data" in all caps,
>  and a Po Box in Dallas Tx.
>
> I called the number on the card and the phone operator started asking some
> odd questions about place of employment, phone numbers, email, marital
> status, name of spouse, name of kids, grotto affiliation.  Then at the end
> they want you to send them a color picture of yourself, a bill would then
> be sent out for two payments of $50 for the hard bound book.  Or because I
> am a member, would bundle a sweatshirt, and book bag, and a digital copy,
> for two payments of $75...  I didn't provide much info, but started
> questioning it by the end.
>
> Anyone know anything about this?  Is it a scam?   Is the NSS publishing
> the members manual in hardback?
> Allen
>
>
>
>
> 
>  Virus-free.
> www.avg.com
> 
> <#m_-810940256098833883_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] NSS Publication / scam?

[Geary Schindel]

Bianca,

Thought I would try and respond to your questions/comments below. We have 
gotten some complaints about heavy handed tactics by a few of the operators at 
PCI and also gotten some nice comments about how professional and courteous 
some of the operators were. We’ve let our PCI contact know about the bad apples 
and they take corrective actions.


  1.  The directory that is being prepared is more than just a members manual. 
It allows you to add a lot of additional information, for example, your grotto 
affiliation, educational information, awards, spouse names, cell phone, 
occupation, picture, etc. The directory includes all past and current members 
where the annual NSS members manual doesn’t include past members. Occupational 
information is of value to the NSS because it allows us to find volunteers with 
specific expertise. For example, we are going to convert our five classrooms in 
the Headquarters to educational facilities. We found a member that has a 
background in commercial office design and they’ve been working on layout of 
the education center. We have other needs for various volunteer skills in the 
NSS.
  2.  PCI has reported about 20 percent of the contacts had new updated basic 
contact information. This would be emails, phones, addresses, etc. So, some 
folks don’t always update their information with the NSS office.
  3.  You can include or exclude as much or as little information as you want 
in the directory.
  4.  You will be able to go on line and update your information and addition 
material before publication date.
  5.  So far, contacts by PCI has resulted in more than 160 renewals by past 
members (not bad).
  6.  If you get a high pressure sales pitch, let us know at 
e...@caves.org (Curt Harler, who is the project contact 
for the NSS) or presid...@caves.org (Geary 
Schindel, that’s me).
  7.  PCI is the only people that will be contacting you. The members list is a 
private list and when they are done, they will return the updated list to the 
NSS. They may not use it, transfer it, or sell it.
  8.  If you ignore the postcards, you may get a phone call asking if you want 
to participate. You may say yes or no and determine what level you want to 
participate.

Hope this helps answer some questions.

Geary Schindel
President
NSS

From: 'Bianca della Vittoria' via Southwestern Cavers of the National 
Speleological Society [mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 9:39 PM
To: Lee H. Skinner ; Texas Cavers 
; New Mexico Cavers ; 
Sandia Grotto 
; Allen 

Subject: Re: [SWR CAVERS] NSS Publication / scam?

I received the first two postcards which I purposely ignored after hearing all 
the hassle and sales pressure people were getting after calling the number on 
the card. Then a second batch came which I just put into the shredder.  I don't 
really know why you would need to verify info if you don't want to. When you 
pay your membership each year you can change your address or if it is the same 
you don't. I imagine if you moved in between you can contact the NSS directly 
and ask for a change, so verification seems unnecessary.  The address you put 
on your membership  should be what any correspondence is sent to unless you 
specifically request a change of address and same with your email for online 
publications. If that changes it is your responsibility to notify of a new 
address. If the address has not changed but you quit getting emails or online 
publications that are expected you should query why, but I certainly don't want 
telemarketers calling or pressure to buy something.  So I will keep ignoring 
those yellow postcards.


On Thursday, July 19, 2018, 2:22:15 PM MDT, Allen 
mailto:siz...@hotmail.com>> wrote:



Hey all,

Just received a postcard from some publishing company about the NSS members 
manual.  Anyone else receive one? Its a yellow postcard with the NSS logo on 
it. It has a title of "Verification of caver data" in all caps,  and a Po Box 
in Dallas Tx.



I called the number on the card and the phone operator started asking some odd 
questions about place of employment, phone numbers, email, marital status, name 
of spouse, name of kids, grotto affiliation.  Then at the end they want you to 
send them a color picture of yourself, a bill would then be sent out for two 
payments of $50 for the hard bound book.  Or because I am a member, would 
bundle a sweatshirt, and book bag, and a digital copy, for two payments of 
$75...  I didn't provide much info, but started questioning it by the end.



Anyone know anything about this?  Is it a scam?   Is the NSS publishing the 
members manual in hardback?

Allen





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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] NSS Publication / scam?

[Charles Goldsmith]

Diana, current members update this yearly when they renew, or if they renew
multiple years, then when it expires.  If someone chose to let their
membership lapse, then this is unsolicited contact.

I understand the reason for this, but it was not handled properly, in my
opinion and I certainly didn't opt in for any phone calls at any time.


On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 5:52 PM Diana Tomchick <
diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu> wrote:

> ​Hi,
>
>
> The NSS, like lots of volunteer organizations, needs to know who are the
> people that are interested in receiving information from the organization.
> Since many people change email addresses and phone numbers, after a few
> years, the database is no longer current. This is an effective way to
> update the database by a professional company. It's impractical to ask a
> group of volunteer cavers to contact ~10,000 people to ask them about their
> personal information--and imagine how upset y'all would be if you knew it
> was just some random volunteer cavers trying to collect this information.
>
>
> Why does the NSS need this information? As with most organizations these
> days, the membership numbers are decreasing. In order for the NSS to stay
> relevant to their current members and to encourage people to renew their
> memberships, they need to be able to provide information to them.
>
>
> I would hope that as the fine cavers you all are in the Southwest Region
> of the NSS, that you would not want to deny the NSS the opportunity to
> interact with you in the future.
>
>
> Diana
>
>
> **
> Diana R. Tomchick
> Professor
> Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry
> University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
> 5323 Harry Hines Blvd
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=5323+Harry+Hines+Blvd=gmail=g>.
> Rm. ND10.214A
> Dallas, TX 75390-8816
> diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
> (214) 645-6383 (phone)
> (214) 645-6353 (fax)
> --
> *From:* Texascavers  on behalf of
> Michael Gibbons <6453...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 19, 2018 5:24 PM
> *To:* texascavers@texascavers.com
> *Cc:* Steve Peerman; SWR Cavers Group; Sandia Grotto; Allen Wright; Lee
> Skinner
> *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] NSS Publication / scam?
>
> I phoned in. I authorized use of name, phone number and email.
> Asked if I wanted a directory, I said no. It wasn't a hard sell and they
> weren't after ant information that I seem sensitive.
> I think it's innocuous and that they are doing just what they were hired
> to do. Compile a directory and nothing more.
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2018, 5:16 PM Stephen Fleming  wrote:
>
>> "Do not call' doesn't apply, since the contractor presumably is not the
>> one making the calls.
>>
>> However, regarding the list, there is an exemption for non-profits. But,
>> while the contractor is working for a non-profit, the company itself is a
>> for-profit entity. It would be an interesting question whether they would
>> get a pass due to the NSS overhead.
>>
>> Unsolicited emails pretty much follow the same scheme.
>>
>> Also, calls/emails are not prohibited for 'customers' who have a business
>> relationship with the caller, something we all have by virtue of our
>> membership.
>>
>> Less clear would be whether lapsed members could be called/emailed
>> without violating restrictions. I think a case could be made that a lapsed
>> member no longer has any relationship to the organization despite how
>> desperately the NSS might want them back.
>>
>> Regardless of the above (and the inapplicability of do not call/email in
>> this instance) it doesn't mean the NSS can do anything it wants with the
>> private information gleaned from our member status.
>>
>> As events continue to repeatedly demonstrate, not only is direct hacking
>> of PII databases a growing problem, but also misuse of data released to
>> outside entities. You would think they'd notice the problems Facebook is in
>> with poor handling of PII (for which FB also had assurances of integrity
>> control...that didn't work out so well for them).
>>
>> The NSS has assured everyone the data is secure, but there's no way to
>> ensure that.
>>
>> I wonder if the NSS can afford (or even has contemplated the issue/risk)
>> to buy everyone identity theft protection if the data escapes the controls?
>> I wonder if the contractor agreement included a requirement they would bear
>> that expense in a data breach. If such an event is on the NSS, that would
>> cost vastly more money and members than anything they ever could gai

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] NSS Publication / scam?

[Diana Tomchick]

​Hi,


The NSS, like lots of volunteer organizations, needs to know who are the people 
that are interested in receiving information from the organization. Since many 
people change email addresses and phone numbers, after a few years, the 
database is no longer current. This is an effective way to update the database 
by a professional company. It's impractical to ask a group of volunteer cavers 
to contact ~10,000 people to ask them about their personal information--and 
imagine how upset y'all would be if you knew it was just some random volunteer 
cavers trying to collect this information.


Why does the NSS need this information? As with most organizations these days, 
the membership numbers are decreasing. In order for the NSS to stay relevant to 
their current members and to encourage people to renew their memberships, they 
need to be able to provide information to them.


I would hope that as the fine cavers you all are in the Southwest Region of the 
NSS, that you would not want to deny the NSS the opportunity to interact with 
you in the future.


Diana


**
Diana R. Tomchick
Professor
Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214A
Dallas, TX 75390-8816
diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
(214) 645-6383 (phone)
(214) 645-6353 (fax)

From: Texascavers  on behalf of Michael 
Gibbons <6453...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 5:24 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Cc: Steve Peerman; SWR Cavers Group; Sandia Grotto; Allen Wright; Lee Skinner
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] NSS Publication / scam?

I phoned in. I authorized use of name, phone number and email.
Asked if I wanted a directory, I said no. It wasn't a hard sell and they 
weren't after ant information that I seem sensitive.
I think it's innocuous and that they are doing just what they were hired to do. 
Compile a directory and nothing more.


On Thu, Jul 19, 2018, 5:16 PM Stephen Fleming 
mailto:casto...@gmail.com>> wrote:
"Do not call' doesn't apply, since the contractor presumably is not the one 
making the calls.

However, regarding the list, there is an exemption for non-profits. But, while 
the contractor is working for a non-profit, the company itself is a for-profit 
entity. It would be an interesting question whether they would get a pass due 
to the NSS overhead.

Unsolicited emails pretty much follow the same scheme.

Also, calls/emails are not prohibited for 'customers' who have a business 
relationship with the caller, something we all have by virtue of our membership.

Less clear would be whether lapsed members could be called/emailed without 
violating restrictions. I think a case could be made that a lapsed member no 
longer has any relationship to the organization despite how desperately the NSS 
might want them back.

Regardless of the above (and the inapplicability of do not call/email in this 
instance) it doesn't mean the NSS can do anything it wants with the private 
information gleaned from our member status.

As events continue to repeatedly demonstrate, not only is direct hacking of PII 
databases a growing problem, but also misuse of data released to outside 
entities. You would think they'd notice the problems Facebook is in with poor 
handling of PII (for which FB also had assurances of integrity control...that 
didn't work out so well for them).

The NSS has assured everyone the data is secure, but there's no way to ensure 
that.

I wonder if the NSS can afford (or even has contemplated the issue/risk) to buy 
everyone identity theft protection if the data escapes the controls? I wonder 
if the contractor agreement included a requirement they would bear that expense 
in a data breach. If such an event is on the NSS, that would cost vastly more 
money and members than anything they ever could gain from this exercise.

Stephen





On 7/19/2018 15:36, Charles Goldsmith wrote:
I agree, this was not handled very well at all.  Since we did not agree to 
this, how does this fall under the Do-Not-Call registry, from the FCC's 
perspective?


On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 4:04 PM Stephen Fleming 
mailto:casto...@gmail.com>> wrote:
It is a marketing thing authorized by the NSS.

The NSS says it is costing the organization no money and the contractor funds 
the effort from sales of the rather pricey merchandise.

However, the NSS will get a cut of proceeds: "This is NOT a significant fund 
raiser for NSS, thought [sic] we do get a small commission on sales."

The percentage of return is not stated, and the postcard is disingenuous in not 
revealing this financial arrangement. You have to search the NSS website to 
find that tidbit.

Regardless, I won't be calling or participating; the NSS knows how to contact 
me and they already have everything they need to know.

Allen's listing of the questions asked goes way b

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] NSS Publication / scam?

[Michael Gibbons]

I phoned in. I authorized use of name, phone number and email.
Asked if I wanted a directory, I said no. It wasn't a hard sell and they
weren't after ant information that I seem sensitive.
I think it's innocuous and that they are doing just what they were hired to
do. Compile a directory and nothing more.


On Thu, Jul 19, 2018, 5:16 PM Stephen Fleming  wrote:

> "Do not call' doesn't apply, since the contractor presumably is not the
> one making the calls.
>
> However, regarding the list, there is an exemption for non-profits. But,
> while the contractor is working for a non-profit, the company itself is a
> for-profit entity. It would be an interesting question whether they would
> get a pass due to the NSS overhead.
>
> Unsolicited emails pretty much follow the same scheme.
>
> Also, calls/emails are not prohibited for 'customers' who have a business
> relationship with the caller, something we all have by virtue of our
> membership.
>
> Less clear would be whether lapsed members could be called/emailed without
> violating restrictions. I think a case could be made that a lapsed member
> no longer has any relationship to the organization despite how desperately
> the NSS might want them back.
>
> Regardless of the above (and the inapplicability of do not call/email in
> this instance) it doesn't mean the NSS can do anything it wants with the
> private information gleaned from our member status.
>
> As events continue to repeatedly demonstrate, not only is direct hacking
> of PII databases a growing problem, but also misuse of data released to
> outside entities. You would think they'd notice the problems Facebook is in
> with poor handling of PII (for which FB also had assurances of integrity
> control...that didn't work out so well for them).
>
> The NSS has assured everyone the data is secure, but there's no way to
> ensure that.
>
> I wonder if the NSS can afford (or even has contemplated the issue/risk)
> to buy everyone identity theft protection if the data escapes the controls?
> I wonder if the contractor agreement included a requirement they would bear
> that expense in a data breach. If such an event is on the NSS, that would
> cost vastly more money and members than anything they ever could gain from
> this exercise.
>
> Stephen
>
>
>
>
>
> On 7/19/2018 15:36, Charles Goldsmith wrote:
>
> I agree, this was not handled very well at all.  Since we did not agree to
> this, how does this fall under the Do-Not-Call registry, from the FCC's
> perspective?
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 4:04 PM Stephen Fleming 
> wrote:
>
>> It is a marketing thing authorized by the NSS.
>>
>> The NSS says it is costing the organization no money and the contractor
>> funds the effort from sales of the rather pricey merchandise.
>>
>> However, the NSS will get a cut of proceeds: "This is NOT a significant
>> fund raiser for NSS, thought [sic] we do get a small commission on sales."
>>
>> The percentage of return is not stated, and the postcard is disingenuous
>> in not revealing this financial arrangement. You have to search the NSS
>> website to find that tidbit.
>>
>> Regardless, I won't be calling or participating; the NSS knows how to
>> contact me and they already have everything they need to know.
>>
>> Allen's listing of the questions asked goes way beyond basic caver info
>> and seeks information the NSS has no business collecting.
>>
>> I put this thing in the same category as telemarketers. Unwelcome and not
>> tolerated.
>>
>> I did not opt-in for the NSS to release my contact information, even to a
>> contractor, for such a use. The fact that I can decide not to participate
>> pales beside the NSS misusing my personal data.
>>
>> Stephen
>> 13727 RL FE
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/19/2018 14:25, Steve Peerman wrote:
>>
>> Allen,
>> It’s not a scam, but you are under no obligation to buy the product that
>> they are making.  It is supposed to be an NSS directory of all NSS members
>> past and present.  I submitted my information, but I didn’t buy the book.
>> It seems rather pricey to me.
>>
>>
>> On Jul 19, 2018, at 2:22 PM, Allen  wrote:
>>
>> Hey all,
>> Just received a postcard from some publishing company about the NSS
>> members manual.  Anyone else receive one? Its a yellow postcard with the
>> NSS logo on it. It has a title of "Verification of caver data" in all caps,
>>  and a Po Box in Dallas Tx.
>>
>> I called the number on the card and the phone operator started asking
>> some odd questions about place of employment, phone numbers, email, marital
>> status, name of spouse, name of kids, grotto affiliation.  Then at the end
>> they want you to send them a color picture of yourself, a bill would then
>> be sent out for two payments of $50 for the hard bound book.  Or because I
>> am a member, would bundle a sweatshirt, and book bag, and a digital copy,
>> for two payments of $75...  I didn't provide much info, but started
>> questioning it by the end.
>>
>> Anyone know anything about this?  Is it a scam?   

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] NSS Publication / scam?

[Charles Goldsmith]

Gotcha, thanks for the expanation Stephen.  I'd be in favor of a way to opt
out of such things in the future.  I get enough spam calls and email as it
is, and basically, if I don't know the number, I don't answer and let VM
take care of it.  So, if they try to call me, they are going to get my
voicemail.  My information is up to date in my NSS membership, and they
should have taken that into account (bounced mail at a minimum).

This was handled poorly and if I cared a bit more, I'd voice my opinion
more than just on this forum and look into the meeting minutes to see who
came up with the idea and who voted for it, if it was even put to a vote,
hopefully it was.


On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 5:15 PM Stephen Fleming  wrote:

> "Do not call' doesn't apply, since the contractor presumably is not the
> one making the calls.
>
> However, regarding the list, there is an exemption for non-profits. But,
> while the contractor is working for a non-profit, the company itself is a
> for-profit entity. It would be an interesting question whether they would
> get a pass due to the NSS overhead.
>
> Unsolicited emails pretty much follow the same scheme.
>
> Also, calls/emails are not prohibited for 'customers' who have a business
> relationship with the caller, something we all have by virtue of our
> membership.
>
> Less clear would be whether lapsed members could be called/emailed without
> violating restrictions. I think a case could be made that a lapsed member
> no longer has any relationship to the organization despite how desperately
> the NSS might want them back.
>
> Regardless of the above (and the inapplicability of do not call/email in
> this instance) it doesn't mean the NSS can do anything it wants with the
> private information gleaned from our member status.
>
> As events continue to repeatedly demonstrate, not only is direct hacking
> of PII databases a growing problem, but also misuse of data released to
> outside entities. You would think they'd notice the problems Facebook is in
> with poor handling of PII (for which FB also had assurances of integrity
> control...that didn't work out so well for them).
>
> The NSS has assured everyone the data is secure, but there's no way to
> ensure that.
>
> I wonder if the NSS can afford (or even has contemplated the issue/risk)
> to buy everyone identity theft protection if the data escapes the controls?
> I wonder if the contractor agreement included a requirement they would bear
> that expense in a data breach. If such an event is on the NSS, that would
> cost vastly more money and members than anything they ever could gain from
> this exercise.
>
>
> Stephen
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 7/19/2018 15:36, Charles Goldsmith wrote:
>
> I agree, this was not handled very well at all.  Since we did not agree to
> this, how does this fall under the Do-Not-Call registry, from the FCC's
> perspective?
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 4:04 PM Stephen Fleming 
> wrote:
>
>> It is a marketing thing authorized by the NSS.
>>
>> The NSS says it is costing the organization no money and the contractor
>> funds the effort from sales of the rather pricey merchandise.
>>
>> However, the NSS will get a cut of proceeds: "This is NOT a significant
>> fund raiser for NSS, thought [sic] we do get a small commission on sales."
>>
>> The percentage of return is not stated, and the postcard is disingenuous
>> in not revealing this financial arrangement. You have to search the NSS
>> website to find that tidbit.
>>
>> Regardless, I won't be calling or participating; the NSS knows how to
>> contact me and they already have everything they need to know.
>>
>> Allen's listing of the questions asked goes way beyond basic caver info
>> and seeks information the NSS has no business collecting.
>>
>> I put this thing in the same category as telemarketers. Unwelcome and not
>> tolerated.
>>
>> I did not opt-in for the NSS to release my contact information, even to a
>> contractor, for such a use. The fact that I can decide not to participate
>> pales beside the NSS misusing my personal data.
>>
>> Stephen
>> 13727 RL FE
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/19/2018 14:25, Steve Peerman wrote:
>>
>> Allen,
>> It’s not a scam, but you are under no obligation to buy the product that
>> they are making.  It is supposed to be an NSS directory of all NSS members
>> past and present.  I submitted my information, but I didn’t buy the book.
>> It seems rather pricey to me.
>>
>>
>> On Jul 19, 2018, at 2:22 PM, Allen  wrote:
>>
>> Hey all,
>> Just received a postcard from some publishing company about the NSS
>> members manual.  Anyone else receive one? Its a yellow postcard with the
>> NSS logo on it. It has a title of "Verification of caver data" in all caps,
>>  and a Po Box in Dallas Tx.
>>
>> I called the number on the card and the phone operator started asking
>> some odd questions about place of employment, phone numbers, email, marital
>> status, name of spouse, name of kids, grotto affiliation.  Then at the end
>> they want you 

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] NSS Publication / scam?

[Stephen Fleming]

"Do not call' doesn't apply, since the contractor presumably is not the 
one making the calls.


However, regarding the list, there is an exemption for non-profits. But, 
while the contractor is working for a non-profit, the company itself is 
a for-profit entity. It would be an interesting question whether they 
would get a pass due to the NSS overhead.


Unsolicited emails pretty much follow the same scheme.

Also, calls/emails are not prohibited for 'customers' who have a 
business relationship with the caller, something we all have by virtue 
of our membership.


Less clear would be whether lapsed members could be called/emailed 
without violating restrictions. I think a case could be made that a 
lapsed member no longer has any relationship to the organization despite 
how desperately the NSS might want them back.


Regardless of the above (and the inapplicability of do not call/email in 
this instance) it doesn't mean the NSS can do anything it wants with the 
private information gleaned from our member status.


As events continue to repeatedly demonstrate, not only is direct hacking 
of PII databases a growing problem, but also misuse of data released to 
outside entities. You would think they'd notice the problems Facebook is 
in with poor handling of PII (for which FB also had assurances of 
integrity control...that didn't work out so well for them).


The NSS has assured everyone the data is secure, but there's no way to 
ensure that.


I wonder if the NSS can afford (or even has contemplated the issue/risk) 
to buy everyone identity theft protection if the data escapes the 
controls? I wonder if the contractor agreement included a requirement 
they would bear that expense in a data breach. If such an event is on 
the NSS, that would cost vastly more money and members than anything 
they ever could gain from this exercise.


Stephen





On 7/19/2018 15:36, Charles Goldsmith wrote:
I agree, this was not handled very well at all. Since we did not agree 
to this, how does this fall under the Do-Not-Call registry, from the 
FCC's perspective?



On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 4:04 PM Stephen Fleming > wrote:


It is a marketing thing authorized by the NSS.

The NSS says it is costing the organization no money and the
contractor funds the effort from sales of the rather pricey
merchandise.

However, the NSS will get a cut of proceeds: "This is NOT a
significant fund raiser for NSS, thought [sic] we do get a small
commission on sales."

The percentage of return is not stated, and the postcard is
disingenuous in not revealing this financial arrangement. You have
to search the NSS website to find that tidbit.

Regardless, I won't be calling or participating; the NSS knows how
to contact me and they already have everything they need to know.

Allen's listing of the questions asked goes way beyond basic caver
info and seeks information the NSS has no business collecting.

I put this thing in the same category as telemarketers. Unwelcome
and not tolerated.

I did not opt-in for the NSS to release my contact information,
even to a contractor, for such a use. The fact that I can decide
not to participate pales beside the NSS misusing my personal data.

Stephen
13727 RL FE




On 7/19/2018 14:25, Steve Peerman wrote:

Allen,
It’s not a scam, but you are under no obligation to buy the
product that they are making.  It is supposed to be an NSS
directory of all NSS members past and present.  I submitted my
information, but I didn’t buy the book.  It seems rather pricey
to me.



On Jul 19, 2018, at 2:22 PM, Allen mailto:siz...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

Hey all,
Just received a postcard from some publishing company about the
NSS members manual.  Anyone else receive one? Its a yellow
postcard with the NSS logo on it. It has a title
of "Verification of caver data" in all caps,  and a Po Box in
Dallas Tx.

I called the number on the card and the phone operator started
asking some odd questions about place of employment, phone
numbers, email, marital status, name of spouse, name of
kids, grotto affiliation.  Then at the end they want you to send
them a color picture of yourself, a bill would then be sent out
for two payments of $50 for the hard bound book. Or because I am
a member, would bundle a sweatshirt, and book bag, and a digital
copy, for two payments of $75...  I didn't provide much info,
but started questioning it by the end.

Anyone know anything about this?  Is it a scam?   Is the NSS
publishing the members manual in hardback?
Allen





Virus-free. www.avg.com

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] NSS Publication / scam?

[Geary Schindel]

I think they will contact you and you’ll be able to update your information on 
line.

Geary

From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of Barb
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 4:43 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Cc: Allen Wright ; SWR Cavers Group 
; Lee Skinner ; Steve Peerman 
; Sandia Grotto 

Subject: Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] NSS Publication / scam?

That's so strange because when I called for Don and myself, all they did was 
verify phone and email and mailing address basically. No request for photo or 
request to purchase stuff. Guess I got off easy.
Barb Coons
Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 19, 2018, at 4:04 PM, Stephen Fleming 
mailto:casto...@gmail.com>> wrote:
It is a marketing thing authorized by the NSS.

The NSS says it is costing the organization no money and the contractor funds 
the effort from sales of the rather pricey merchandise.

However, the NSS will get a cut of proceeds: "This is NOT a significant fund 
raiser for NSS, thought [sic] we do get a small commission on sales."

The percentage of return is not stated, and the postcard is disingenuous in not 
revealing this financial arrangement. You have to search the NSS website to 
find that tidbit.

Regardless, I won't be calling or participating; the NSS knows how to contact 
me and they already have everything they need to know.

Allen's listing of the questions asked goes way beyond basic caver info and 
seeks information the NSS has no business collecting.

I put this thing in the same category as telemarketers. Unwelcome and not 
tolerated.

I did not opt-in for the NSS to release my contact information, even to a 
contractor, for such a use. The fact that I can decide not to participate pales 
beside the NSS misusing my personal data.

Stephen
13727 RL FE



On 7/19/2018 14:25, Steve Peerman wrote:
Allen,
It’s not a scam, but you are under no obligation to buy the 
product that they are making.  It is supposed to be an NSS directory of all NSS 
members past and present.  I submitted my information, but I didn’t buy the 
book.  It seems rather pricey to me.



On Jul 19, 2018, at 2:22 PM, Allen 
mailto:siz...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

Hey all,
Just received a postcard from some publishing company about the NSS members 
manual.  Anyone else receive one? Its a yellow postcard with the NSS logo on 
it. It has a title of "Verification of caver data" in all caps,  and a Po Box 
in Dallas Tx.

I called the number on the card and the phone operator started asking some odd 
questions about place of employment, phone numbers, email, marital status, name 
of spouse, name of kids, grotto affiliation.  Then at the end they want you to 
send them a color picture of yourself, a bill would then be sent out for two 
payments of $50 for the hard bound book.  Or because I am a member, would 
bundle a sweatshirt, and book bag, and a digital copy, for two payments of 
$75...  I didn't provide much info, but started questioning it by the end.

Anyone know anything about this?  Is it a scam?   Is the NSS publishing the 
members manual in hardback?
Allen


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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] NSS Publication / scam?

[Barb]

That's so strange because when I called for Don and myself, all they did was 
verify phone and email and mailing address basically. No request for photo or 
request to purchase stuff. Guess I got off easy.
Barb Coons

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 19, 2018, at 4:04 PM, Stephen Fleming  wrote:
> 
> It is a marketing thing authorized by the NSS.
> 
> The NSS says it is costing the organization no money and the contractor funds 
> the effort from sales of the rather pricey merchandise.
> 
> However, the NSS will get a cut of proceeds: "This is NOT a significant fund 
> raiser for NSS, thought [sic] we do get a small commission on sales." 
> 
> The percentage of return is not stated, and the postcard is disingenuous in 
> not revealing this financial arrangement. You have to search the NSS website 
> to find that tidbit.
> 
> Regardless, I won't be calling or participating; the NSS knows how to contact 
> me and they already have everything they need to know.
> 
> Allen's listing of the questions asked goes way beyond basic caver info and 
> seeks information the NSS has no business collecting.
> 
> I put this thing in the same category as telemarketers. Unwelcome and not 
> tolerated.
> 
> I did not opt-in for the NSS to release my contact information, even to a 
> contractor, for such a use. The fact that I can decide not to participate 
> pales beside the NSS misusing my personal data.
> 
> Stephen
> 13727 RL FE
> 
> 
> 
>> On 7/19/2018 14:25, Steve Peerman wrote:
>> Allen,
>>  It’s not a scam, but you are under no obligation to buy the product 
>> that they are making.  It is supposed to be an NSS directory of all NSS 
>> members past and present.  I submitted my information, but I didn’t buy the 
>> book.  It seems rather pricey to me.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jul 19, 2018, at 2:22 PM, Allen  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hey all,
>>> Just received a postcard from some publishing company about the NSS members 
>>> manual.  Anyone else receive one? Its a yellow postcard with the NSS logo 
>>> on it. It has a title of "Verification of caver data" in all caps,  and a 
>>> Po Box in Dallas Tx.  
>>> 
>>> I called the number on the card and the phone operator started asking some 
>>> odd questions about place of employment, phone numbers, email, marital 
>>> status, name of spouse, name of kids, grotto affiliation.  Then at the end 
>>> they want you to send them a color picture of yourself, a bill would then 
>>> be sent out for two payments of $50 for the hard bound book.  Or because I 
>>> am a member, would bundle a sweatshirt, and book bag, and a digital copy, 
>>> for two payments of $75...  I didn't provide much info, but started 
>>> questioning it by the end.
>>> 
>>> Anyone know anything about this?  Is it a scam?   Is the NSS publishing the 
>>> members manual in hardback?
>>> Allen
> 
> 
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] NSS Publication / scam?

[Charles Goldsmith]

I agree, this was not handled very well at all.  Since we did not agree to
this, how does this fall under the Do-Not-Call registry, from the FCC's
perspective?


On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 4:04 PM Stephen Fleming  wrote:

> It is a marketing thing authorized by the NSS.
>
> The NSS says it is costing the organization no money and the contractor
> funds the effort from sales of the rather pricey merchandise.
>
> However, the NSS will get a cut of proceeds: "This is NOT a significant
> fund raiser for NSS, thought [sic] we do get a small commission on sales."
>
> The percentage of return is not stated, and the postcard is disingenuous
> in not revealing this financial arrangement. You have to search the NSS
> website to find that tidbit.
>
> Regardless, I won't be calling or participating; the NSS knows how to
> contact me and they already have everything they need to know.
>
> Allen's listing of the questions asked goes way beyond basic caver info
> and seeks information the NSS has no business collecting.
>
> I put this thing in the same category as telemarketers. Unwelcome and not
> tolerated.
>
> I did not opt-in for the NSS to release my contact information, even to a
> contractor, for such a use. The fact that I can decide not to participate
> pales beside the NSS misusing my personal data.
>
> Stephen
> 13727 RL FE
>
>
>
>
> On 7/19/2018 14:25, Steve Peerman wrote:
>
> Allen,
> It’s not a scam, but you are under no obligation to buy the product that
> they are making.  It is supposed to be an NSS directory of all NSS members
> past and present.  I submitted my information, but I didn’t buy the book.
> It seems rather pricey to me.
>
>
> On Jul 19, 2018, at 2:22 PM, Allen  wrote:
>
> Hey all,
> Just received a postcard from some publishing company about the NSS
> members manual.  Anyone else receive one? Its a yellow postcard with the
> NSS logo on it. It has a title of "Verification of caver data" in all caps,
>  and a Po Box in Dallas Tx.
>
> I called the number on the card and the phone operator started asking some
> odd questions about place of employment, phone numbers, email, marital
> status, name of spouse, name of kids, grotto affiliation.  Then at the end
> they want you to send them a color picture of yourself, a bill would then
> be sent out for two payments of $50 for the hard bound book.  Or because I
> am a member, would bundle a sweatshirt, and book bag, and a digital copy,
> for two payments of $75...  I didn't provide much info, but started
> questioning it by the end.
>
> Anyone know anything about this?  Is it a scam?   Is the NSS publishing
> the members manual in hardback?
> Allen
>
>
>
>
> 
>  Virus-free.
> www.avg.com
> 
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>
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] NSS Publication / scam?

[Stephen Fleming]

It is a marketing thing authorized by the NSS.

The NSS says it is costing the organization no money and the contractor 
funds the effort from sales of the rather pricey merchandise.


However, the NSS will get a cut of proceeds: "This is NOT a significant 
fund raiser for NSS, thought [sic] we do get a small commission on sales."


The percentage of return is not stated, and the postcard is disingenuous 
in not revealing this financial arrangement. You have to search the NSS 
website to find that tidbit.


Regardless, I won't be calling or participating; the NSS knows how to 
contact me and they already have everything they need to know.


Allen's listing of the questions asked goes way beyond basic caver info 
and seeks information the NSS has no business collecting.


I put this thing in the same category as telemarketers. Unwelcome and 
not tolerated.


I did not opt-in for the NSS to release my contact information, even to 
a contractor, for such a use. The fact that I can decide not to 
participate pales beside the NSS misusing my personal data.


Stephen
13727 RL FE



On 7/19/2018 14:25, Steve Peerman wrote:

Allen,
It’s not a scam, but you are under no obligation to buy the product 
that they are making.  It is supposed to be an NSS directory of all 
NSS members past and present.  I submitted my information, but I 
didn’t buy the book.  It seems rather pricey to me.



On Jul 19, 2018, at 2:22 PM, Allen > wrote:


Hey all,
Just received a postcard from some publishing company about the NSS 
members manual.  Anyone else receive one? Its a yellow postcard with 
the NSS logo on it. It has a title of "Verification of caver data" in 
all caps,  and a Po Box in Dallas Tx.


I called the number on the card and the phone operator started asking 
some odd questions about place of employment, phone numbers, email, 
marital status, name of spouse, name of kids, grotto affiliation. 
Then at the end they want you to send them a color picture of 
yourself, a bill would then be sent out for two payments of $50 for 
the hard bound book. Or because I am a member, would bundle a 
sweatshirt, and book bag, and a digital copy, for two payments of 
$75...  I didn't provide much info, but started questioning it by the 
end.


Anyone know anything about this?  Is it a scam?   Is the NSS 
publishing the members manual in hardback?

Allen




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