date:20050518

Never let your zeal outrun your charity. The former is but human, the
latter is divine. -Hosea Ballou, preacher (1771-1852)
--
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [TruthTalk] Fond Farewells

DAVEH:   Ruben, the news the past few days got me thinking about how 
some SPers preach.  Do you guys attend any Muslim events (I don't even 
know if there are any in the USA)?  If notthen I am wondering if the 
opportunity were to avail itself, would you denigrate the Muslim 
religion in a way similar that you do with LDS folks?   With the 15 
people who died due to the riots ignited by the NEWSWEEK article about 
flushing the Koran.if given the chance, would you attempt to get 
their (Muslims) attention by desecrating that which they consider holy?

Ruben Israel wrote:
Well since Caroline is off, I say toss the Mormons back on the HOT 
SEAT! Anyone for Bar-b-que Mormon, white meat only of course?

--
~~~
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ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching

DAVEH:   Welcome to TT, Christine!!!   :-)
Christine Miller wrote:
Hello, 

I'm new to Truth Talk. I've been listening for a
little while, and have decided finally to hop in. 
 

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~~~
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STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
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ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Dispersions





DAVEH:  SureGod does look like a man, Kevin.  If Jesus was the
Son of man (Jn 3:13), then do you not think his Father in Heaven was a
Holy Man? And, if Jesus' physical body was in the form of a man, do
you not think his pre-mortal spiritual body may have been in a similar
form? To answer your last questionyes, many things are created
in a form before they become the actual entity. 

 If we were created in the image of God (Gen 1:26), and we will be
like him when he appears (1Jn 3:2), then does it not follow that God
looks like a man?

 As for him being seen.is there any question about it? The
passages that suggest one cannot see God are obviously referring to
those who are carnal, since there are Biblical characters (such as
Moses  Stephen) who did see God. Furthermore, Gen 32:30 pretty
much illustrates that holy men can see God, and live. Was it not Jesus
who said...

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. (Mt 5:8)

...Do you believe you can see God, Kevin? If not, perhaps you
are not pure enough in heart. 

Kevin Deegan wrote:

  So what would he look like? a man?
  Can he be seen?
  
  How can you be in the form of a man before you become a man?
  
  Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  DAVEH:
No Kevin, I am not joking. I believe the Bible teaches that Jesus was
the God of the OT before his birth (Jn 1:1-14)I assume you agree.
>From Jn 4:24, you do believe God of the OT was a spiritis that
correct, Kevin? Yet that spirit had the form of a body similar to
ours, as is evidenced by Gen 1:26-27 which explains that we were
created in his image. Furthermore, Paul suggests Jesus is the express
image of his Father. (Heb 1:3)

 Moses even describes some of God's body parts in Ex 33:20-23, and
whose similitude he beheld as mentioned in Num 12:18. Do you accept
the literalness of these descriptions, Kevin? If so, does what I said
above make sense now?

 

Kevin Deegan wrote:

  How could he beGod in the "form of a man" before he became
a man?
  Your joking with me, that make NO sense.
  
  Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
  DAVEH:
God, in the form of a man consisting of a spirit being. Are we in
agreement on that, Kevin?

Kevin Deegan wrote:

  What was he before he "became a man"?
  
  Hos 11:9 I am God, and not man; the Holy One
in the midst of thee

DAVEH: I agree, Kevin. Jesus was not a man before he was born.  But,
I believe he was literally the Son of Man. When did that
happen?.after his birth. Not only was he the Son of Man, but he
himself became a man, and was subsequently resurrected after
his death when his spirit body was united with a physical body of flesh
and bones to become an exalted man. With what part of this do you
disagree, Kevin?

Kevin Deegan wrote:

  If I incorrectly told youitems about my wife
  Hair color, likes dislikes, how we met, where we
married, where she was born (it was not Jerusalem : ) 
  She would not be pleased. Her desire is that I know
her. 
  
  God wants you to know him, He is a jealous God
  He wants your love and affection.
  If your description of Him is off, you are
worshipping a god of your own making
  
  Hos 11:9 I am God, and
  not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee

  
  

  

  


-- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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things I find interesting,
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JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

Re: [TruthTalk] Copying the Bible





DAVEH: Kevindid you inadvertently attribute the below posts to me
(DH) instead of DavidM (DM)?

Kevin Deegan wrote:

  DH This link does not give the full history and it has
misled you. Tischendorf 
first saw the whole text in the trash can ready to be burned on his
first 
trip. Read Tischendorf's account for yourself 
  
  Thanks for straightening that out.
  
  DH Not all humans. I have never done that. Guys like
Joseph Smith and Thomas 
Jefferson did it because they believed that the Bible had been
corrupted. 
Not everyone who copied the Bible believed that it had been corrupted.
  
  And this is exactly what happened to Aleph  B the two
oldest  best manuscripts. 10 different handwritings, words erased,
blotted out, words mipeled, words squeezed in, scribes notes 
scribblings,AND BLANK Columns No other manuscripts are as defaced as
the two oldest and best manuscripts are. Why should they not go back in
the TRASH where they came from? 
  "Marcion the heretic, (AD 140) is
distinctly charged by Tertullian (AD 200), and by Jerome a century and
a half later, with having abundantly mutilated the text of Scripture,
and of S. Paul's Epistles in particular. Epiphanius compares the
writing which Marcion tampered with to a moth-eaten coat. "Instead of a
stylus," says Tertullian, "Marcion employed a knife. What wonder if he
omits syllables, since often he omits whole pages?" S. Paul's Epistle
to the Ephesians, Tertullian even singles out by name, accusing Marcion
of having furnished it with a new title." The Last Twelve Verses Of Mark, p 106
  
  David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Caroline
wrote:
 I wouldn't add words but some copyists did.

Those who add words either attempt to create their own version of the
Bible, 
or they do so for their own personal use, much like many might write in
the 
margins of their Bibles. Surely you recognize the difference between
this 
and copying the Bible for the purpose of making another copy and
preserving 
it. If nobody actually attempted to copy the Bible correctly, we would
not 
have any consistency at all to the Bibles that we now have.

Do you understand my point that in regards to the paradigm of copying
the 
Bible accurately, the more likely mistake would be to omit words rather
than 
add words?

Certainly it would seem to me that if we have 5,000 texts which are
very 
much alike, and two texts that are not alike, not even to each other,
but 
happen to be olde r, we should tend toward the belief that the 5,000
texts 
are probably more accurate than the two older texts. Do you have a
problem 
with this kind of reasoning?

Caroline wrote:
 One of your president, Thomas Jefferson, separated out what
 he considered religious dogma and the supernatural from the
 ethical teachings of the bible to make his own bible.

Thomas Jefferson was a Deist. He did not believe in Jesus Christ as his

personal Savior. Jefferson did this for his own personal use. I don't 
remember reading anywhere that he had ever tried to publish his Bible.
Do 
you know otherwise?

Caroline wrote:
 Other people added words and phrases to incorporate their
 dogma into the work. That's just how humans are.

Not all humans. I have never done that. Guys like Joseph Smith and
Thomas 
Jefferson did it because they believed that the Bible had been
corrupted. 
Not everyone who copied the Bible believe d that it had been corrupted.

Caroline wrote:
 By the way, it was not the Codex Sinaiticus that von
 Tischendorf found in the garbage can, not that it's all
 that important. For the full history of the Codex,
 check out this site:

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/C/Co/Codex_Sinaiticus.htm

This link does not give the full history and it has misled you.
Tischendorf 
first saw the whole text in the trash can ready to be burned on his
first 
trip. Read Tischendorf's account for yourself and you will find that
this 
is the case. The problem was that they would not give it to him because
he 
was all excited about it. Later (I think about 15 years later), he saw
the 
same manuscript again and this time was able to get it. Somebody had 
apparently took it out of the trash can and kept it for all those
years. 
Tischendorf himself says that this was probably because Tischendorf had

gotten all excited abou t it on his first trip and the monks perceived
that 
it might be worth some money. Tischendorf had asked them to keep all
such 
manuscripts safe when he might return again for them at a later date.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
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Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching




JD the term "carnal Christian" is a misnomer coined by 
men; when Paul wrote this to the Corinthians who were in all kinds of envy, 
strife, and disunity, I for one am convinced thathe was not 
startinga "Carnal Christian" doctrine so that we could stay in our 
filth. This"babe in Christ" thing is a bit muchafter being a 
believer for 20-40yrs -kind of like the idea of "sinning that grace may 
abound" Hebrews teaches us that "the earth that drinketh in the rain 
(doctrine) that cometh oft upon it and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by 
whom it is dressed receiveth blessing from God. But that which beareth thorns 
and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing whose end is to be burned" (Heb 
6:7,8)

Being burned is not a blessing. What does Psalm 
51 have to do with God being angry every day with sinners? jt


On Tue, 17 May 2005 21:01:00 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  
  The same writer who gave us Romans also wrote I cor 3:! which makes it 
  clear that there are carnal Christians -- 
  babes in Christ. Is God happy or pleased to realize that there are 
  those who have not progressed as He would prefer? Of 
  course. Are carnal saints pleasing to God? Nope. 
  But they are "babes" nonetheless.. having life in the family of 
  God. The contrast between Ps 7 and Ps 51 remains. 
  
  JD
  
  From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote: 
  


Probably the grandest lesson ofthe biblical message is that found in 
the contrast of lawto grace through faith and all that such includes 
(the failure of the law, the Incarnation, the ascension - etc.) The 
truth of that contrast is at the heart of your difference of opinion with 
Caroline and others. 

Regarding Psalm 7:11 -- you press the point 
that David thinks or writes in this 
verse that God is angry a good deal of the time. That is 
David's opinion about God. In his legalism (David's legalism), he somehow has 
confidence in the wrath of God 
  ==The 
  carnal mind is enmity against God. Those who are in the flesh cannot 
  please God. For as many as are led by the spirit of God, THESE are the 
  sons of God. To be carnally minded is death. (Little plums from 
  Romans eight, new testament)

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Dispersions






On Wed, 18 May 2005 00:09:26 -0700 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  DAVEH:  SureGod does look like a man, Kevin.  If Jesus 
  was the Son of man (Jn 3:13), then do you not think his Father in Heaven was a 
  Holy Man?
  
  No; God is a Spirit (John 4:24) - Jesus took our 
  likeness upon Himself for a purpose. Psalm 91:4 speaks of God's feathers 
  and wings, do you suppose he looks like a bird/ a chicken
  
  And, if Jesus' physical body was in the form of a man, do you not 
  think his pre-mortal spiritual body may have been in a similar 
  form? 
  
  No; before he took a body upon Himself he was God the 
  Word who appeared in His preincarnate state as
  an angel, a cloud, fire, water from the rock. You 
  can't figure out God with a carnal mind Dave.
  
  To answer your last questionyes, many things are created in a form 
  before they become the actual entity. If we were 
  created in the image of God (Gen 1:26), and we will be like him when he 
  appears (1Jn 3:2), then does it not follow that God looks like a man?
  
  No; the "image of God" speaks of nature and 
  character. You are trying to mix the spiritual with the 
  temporal.
  The temporal is passing away - only the spiritual is 
  eternal. Transformed bodies are part of it but this does
  not mean that Good looks like a man. He did not 
  leave us any representation of Jesus, noone knows what
  he looks like other than he wasn't all that good 
  looking. God knows our frame, we are such idolaters that
  we would do the same with him as Israeldid with 
  the bronze serpent. As for him being 
  seen.is there any question about it? The passages that suggest 
  one cannot see God are obviously referring to those who are carnal, since 
  there are Biblical characters (such as Moses  Stephen) who did see 
  God. Furthermore, Gen 32:30 pretty much illustrates that holy men can 
  see God, and live. Was it not Jesus who said...
  
  Moses didn't see God, he only saw his hind parts as 
  he passed by and even that caused his face to shine so
  that he had to wear a veil before the ppl. 
  Stephen had a vision of Jesus standing at the RH of the Father but there is no 
  indication that he saw the face of God. He said that because the man he 
  wrestled with represented God. Do you really think that God Himself left 
  his throne in heaven and came down to earth to wrestle with
  Jacob? It was an angel. Probably another 
  manifestation of Jesus in His preincarnate state.Blessed are 
  the pure in heart: for they shall see God. (Mt 
  5:8)...Do you believe you can see God, Kevin? If not, 
  perhaps you are not pure enough in heart. 
  
  Takes more than presumptuous belief DaveH - It takes 
  a pure heart (that is what God calls pure)
  Kevin Deegan wrote: 
  
So what would he look like? a man?
Can he be seen?

How can you be in the form of a man before you become a 
man?Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
DAVEH: 
  No Kevin, I am not joking. I believe the Bible teaches that Jesus 
  was the God of the OT before his birth (Jn 1:1-14)I assume you 
  agree. From Jn 4:24, you do believe God of the OT was a 
  spiritis that correct, Kevin? Yet that spirit had the form of a 
  body similar to ours, as is evidenced by Gen 1:26-27 which explains that 
  we were created in his image. Furthermore, Paul suggests Jesus is 
  the express image of his Father. (Heb 1:3) Moses 
  even describes some of God's body parts in Ex 33:20-23, and whose 
  similitude he beheld as mentioned in Num 12:18. Do you accept the 
  literalness of these descriptions, Kevin? If so, does what I said 
  above make sense now? Kevin Deegan 
  wrote: 
  
How could he beGod in the "form of a man" before he became a 
man?
Your joking with me, that make NO sense.Dave Hansen 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
DAVEH: 
  God, in the form of a man consisting of a spirit being. Are we 
  in agreement on that, Kevin?Kevin Deegan wrote: 
  
What was he before he "became a man"?
Hos 11:9 I am God, and not man; the Holy One 
  in the midst of theeDAVEH: I agree, 
  Kevin. Jesus was not a man before he was born.  But, I 
  believe he was literally the Son of Man. When did that 
  happen?.after his birth. Not only was he the Son 
  of Man, but he himself became a man, and was subsequently 
  resurrected after his death when his spirit body was united with a 
  physical body of flesh and bones to become an exalted man. 
  With what part of this do you disagree, Kevin?Kevin Deegan 
  wrote: 
  
If I incorrectly told youitems about my wife
Hair color, likes dislikes, how we met, where we married, 
where she was born (it was

Re: [TruthTalk] Fond Farewells- Salvation

Then Paul was in the same shape JD because he was out
there speaking the truth and the truth was enraging
those who disagreed with him even to the point that
more than 40 of them made a vow that they would fast until they killed
him. It wasn't only the Jews, in Ephesus the followers of the pagan
goddess Diana acted the same way. But Jesus appeared to him while he was in jail
(2yrs) for street preaching and told him to be of Good Cheer and that he would
take the message to Rome. You must be following all this in your BSF Study
- What is Kevin or any of the other Street Preachers doing that is so
abhorrent? Just because men get upset with them doesn't mean that they are
not doing what God has called them to do. We/they have the mind of
Christ. jt

On Wed, 18 May 2005 00:44:52 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

The question should be, "How do you know if someone is lost when
they claim the name, give diligence to the study of the written word,
practice acts of faith and dedicate their whole life to God;" a
second question should be, "What givesone the right to judge
another saint whentheir life is no better than the one they
criticize(Rom 2:1)?"

More specifically, if God is the one who does the saving, something
you may or may not believe, why would we even think to ask such a
question? It is His decision and only the most arrogant would pretend
to know His mind in these matters.

From: Christine Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]

knpraise wrote:How in the world can someone like
you (and those who are your bend the knee supporters) even hope to
truly save the lost when you have no clue as to who is saved?

How do we know if someone is saved? I ask this sincerely.

Blessings,

Christine

PS- Feel free to ignore me if this is opening a can of worms or an
otherwise stale topic, but I'm new to this board and genuinely curious,
specifically about your comment, knpraise.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

You are so off base, Kevin. To imagine that one as judgmental
as you would think

yourself to be accomplishing the work of the Lordwith the kind of
trash that rolls off
your lips as natural as puss from an open sore is astounding. How in the world can someone
like
you (and those who are your bend the knee supporters) even hope to
truly save the lost when you
you have no clue as to who is saved? You are the perfect reason
why there are no churches inthe
Central Valley who would even pretend to consider supporting a "street
preacher." Admittedly,
they (the SP) are not all
bad, but you certainly give them no help. Too bad you
don't work for a
living -- it would go a long way to keeping you
off the street. Fortunately
for you, it is not
your effort that brings you reconciliation

Kevin shares from the heart to Caroline:

Well so long,I really do hope you get
saved!Caroline Wong caro[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Well
folks, it's been mostly fun but I've gotta go. I'm spending too much
time here and it's not good since I have to clean up my condo, put it
on the market and move in a few short weeks. Things are just too busy.
So I'll bid you all a fond farewell.JD, Bill, it's been a
real pleasure getting to know you.Judy, Izzy, David take care of
yourselves.There are several others here that I didn't talk to as much
mostly because of time constraints. I hope things go well for you and
yours.Kevin, thanks for all the exchanges. You've sharpened me as iron
sharpens iron. From now on, I won't be afraid to tangle with any KJV
toting fundamentalist! I feel very light hearted about that. It was a
season but one that has blessed me.Love and God
Bless,Caroline --"Let your speech be always
with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer
every m an." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you
do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have
a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Yahoo! Mail MobileTake Yahoo! Mail with
you! Check email on your mobile phone.

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Re: [TruthTalk] Welcome





I'd also like to welcome you Christine, glad 
tohave you on TT,
Judyt

On Tue, 17 May 2005 22:02:04 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes: Welcome Christine. Any relationship to David 
Miller? Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Copying the Bible

Yes, thanksDave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
DAVEH: Kevindid you inadvertently attribute the below posts to me (DH) instead of DavidM (DM)?Kevin Deegan wrote:

DH This link does not give the full history and it has misled you. Tischendorf first saw the whole text in the trash can ready to be burned on his first trip. Read Tischendorf's account for yourself

Thanks for straightening that out.

DH Not all humans. I have never done that. Guys like Joseph Smith and Thomas Jefferson did it because they believed that the Bible had been corrupted. Not everyone who copied the Bible believed that it had been corrupted.
And this is exactly what happened to Aleph B the two oldest best manuscripts. 10 different handwritings, words erased, blotted out, words mipeled, words squeezed in, scribes notes scribblings,AND BLANK Columns No other manuscripts are as defaced as the two oldest and best manuscripts are. Why should they not go back in the TRASH where they came from?
"Marcion the heretic, (AD 140) is distinctly charged by Tertullian (AD 200), and by Jerome a century and a half later, with having abundantly mutilated the text of Scripture, and of S. Paul's Epistles in particular. Epiphanius compares the writing which Marcion tampered with to a moth-eaten coat. "Instead of a stylus," says Tertullian, "Marcion employed a knife. What wonder if he omits syllables, since often he omits whole pages?" S. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Tertullian even singles out by name, accusing Marcion of having furnished it with a new title." The Last Twelve Verses Of Mark, p 106David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Caroline wrote: I wouldn't add words but some copyists did.Those who add words either attempt to create their own version of the Bible, or they do so for their own personal use, much like many might write in the margins of their Bibles. Surely you recognize the difference between this and copying the Bible for the purpose of making another copy and preserving it. If nobody actually attempted to copy the Bible correctly, we would not have any consistency at all to the Bibles that we now have.Do you understand my point that in regards to the paradigm of copying the Bible accurately, the more likely mistake would be to omit words rather than add words?Certainly it would seem to me that if we have 5,000 texts which are very much alike, and two texts that are not alike, not even to each other, but happen to be olde
r, we should tend toward the belief that the 5,000 texts are probably more accurate than the two older texts. Do you have a problem with this kind of reasoning?Caroline wrote: One of your president, Thomas Jefferson, separated out what he considered religious dogma and the supernatural from the ethical teachings of the bible to make his own bible.Thomas Jefferson was a Deist. He did not believe in Jesus Christ as his personal Savior. Jefferson did this for his own personal use. I don't remember reading anywhere that he had ever tried to publish his Bible. Do you know otherwise?Caroline wrote: Other people added words and phrases to incorporate their dogma into the work. That's just how humans are.Not all humans. I have never done that. Guys like Joseph Smith and Thomas Jefferson did it because they believed that the Bible had been corrupted. Not everyone who copied the Bible believe d
that it had been corrupted.Caroline wrote: By the way, it was not the Codex Sinaiticus that von Tischendorf found in the garbage can, not that it's all that important. For the full history of the Codex, check out this site: http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/C/Co/Codex_Sinaiticus.htmThis link does not give the full history and it has misled you. Tischendorf first saw the whole text in the trash can ready to be burned on his first trip. Read Tischendorf's account for yourself and you will find that this is the case. The problem was that they would not give it to him because he was all excited about it. Later (I think about 15 years later), he saw the same manuscript again and this time was able to get it. Somebody had apparently took it out of the trash can and kept it for all those
years. Tischendorf himself says that this was probably because Tischendorf had gotten all excited abou t it on his first trip and the monks perceived that it might be worth some money. Tischendorf had asked them to keep all such manuscripts safe when he might return again for them at a later date.Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
and he will be subscribed.
__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Dispersions

Question, DaveH: The Biblesays Jesus is standing on the right hand of God

Is this support for God has a body since he has a hand?
If you take this so literaldoes Jesus' wieght onGod's hand, hurt?Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Wed, 18 May 2005 00:09:26 -0700 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

DAVEH: SureGod does look like a man, Kevin. If Jesus was the Son of man (Jn 3:13), then do you not think his Father in Heaven was a Holy Man?

No; God is a Spirit (John 4:24) - Jesus took our likeness upon Himself for a purpose. Psalm 91:4 speaks of God's feathers and wings, do you suppose he looks like a bird/ a chicken

And, if Jesus' physical body was in the form of a man, do you not think his pre-mortal spiritual body may have been in a similar form?

No; before he took a body upon Himself he was God the Word who appeared in His preincarnate state as
an angel, a cloud, fire, water from the rock. You can't figure out God with a carnal mind Dave.

To answer your last questionyes, many things are created in a form before they become the actual entity. If we were created in the image of God (Gen 1:26), and we will be like him when he appears (1Jn 3:2), then does it not follow that God looks like a man?

No; the "image of God" speaks of nature and character. You are trying to mix the spiritual with the temporal.
The temporal is passing away - only the spiritual is eternal. Transformed bodies are part of it but this does
not mean that Good looks like a man. He did not leave us any representation of Jesus, noone knows what
he looks like other than he wasn't all that good looking. God knows our frame, we are such idolaters that
we would do the same with him as Israeldid with the bronze serpent. As for him being seen.is there any question about it? The passages that suggest one cannot see God are obviously referring to those who are carnal, since there are Biblical characters (such as Moses Stephen) who did see God. Furthermore, Gen 32:30 pretty much illustrates that holy men can see God, and live. Was it not Jesus who said...

Moses didn't see God, he only saw his hind parts as he passed by and even that caused his face to shine so
that he had to wear a veil before the ppl. Stephen had a vision of Jesus standing at the RH of the Father but there is no indication that he saw the face of God. He said that because the man he wrestled with represented God. Do you really think that God Himself left his throne in heaven and came down to earth to wrestle with
Jacob? It was an angel. Probably another manifestation of Jesus in His preincarnate state.Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. (Mt 5:8)...Do you believe you can see God, Kevin? If not, perhaps you are not pure enough in heart.

Takes more than presumptuous belief DaveH - It takes a pure heart (that is what God calls pure)
Kevin Deegan wrote:

So what would he look like? a man?
Can he be seen?

How can you be in the form of a man before you become a man?Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
DAVEH: No Kevin, I am not joking. I believe the Bible teaches that Jesus was the God of the OT before his birth (Jn 1:1-14)I assume you agree. From Jn 4:24, you do believe God of the OT was a spiritis that correct, Kevin? Yet that spirit had the form of a body similar to ours, as is evidenced by Gen 1:26-27 which explains that we were created in his image. Furthermore, Paul suggests Jesus is the express image of his Father. (Heb 1:3) Moses even describes some of God's body parts in Ex 33:20-23, and whose similitude he beheld as mentioned in Num 12:18. Do you accept the literalness of these descriptions, Kevin? If so, does what I said above make sense now? Kevin Deegan wrote:

How could he beGod in the "form of a man" before he became a man?
Your joking with me, that make NO sense.Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
DAVEH: God, in the form of a man consisting of a spirit being. Are we in agreement on that, Kevin?Kevin Deegan wrote:

What was he before he "became a man"?
Hos 11:9 I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of theeDAVEH: I agree, Kevin. Jesus was not a man before he was born. But, I believe he was literally the Son of Man. When did that happen?.after his birth. Not only was he the Son of Man, but he himself became a man, and was subsequently resurrected after his death when his spirit body was united with a physical body of flesh and bones to become an exalted man. With what part of this do you disagree, Kevin?Kevin Deegan wrote:

If I incorrectly told youitems about my wife
Hair color, likes dislikes, how we met, where we married, where she was born (it was not Jerusalem : )
She would not be pleased. Her desire is that I know her.

God wants you to know him, He is a jealous God
He wants your love and affection.
If your description of Him is off, you are worshipping a god of your own making

Hos 11:9 I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee--
~~~
Dave Hansen

Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching

What christians should be doing, WITNESS!

Homosexual Lust Fest Confronted in Charlotte, NC By Flip Benham http://www.operationsaveamerica.org/streets/nc/homosexual-lust-fest-confronted.htm"apostate churches actually condoning this behavior"
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Re: [TruthTalk] Fond Farewells

2005-05-18 Thread Ruben Israel

DAVEH:   Ruben, the news the past few days got me thinking about how
some SPers preach.  Do you guys attend any Muslim events (I don't even
know if there are any in the USA)?


Yes I have.
A)during their holy days earlier this year (I forgot the name) we were 
at the Los Angles and Anaheim convention center, things were a bit hot as 
L.A.P.D. came in big and fast or as the book of Acts says no small stir

B)in Michigan there is a Muslim event/fest with thousands to preach too 
and for some unknown reason Michigan is like a little Mecca.

C)After preaching against the sodomite parade in Chicago (over 450,000 
strong) I visited the black Muslim Louis Farrakhan university where a riot 
almost broke out.  One police car just happen to pass by and made a u-turn 
and called for back up.  This officer waited inside his car till about 6 
other CPD showed up.  The black mob started to walk away when the police 
made showed.

D)Also at local meeting places where they come to pray

All these events are preached with anti Muslim, pro Jesus (only begotten) 
pro Bible banners, why do you ask?

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] baptism





Caroline Wong wrote:
 Words wound, 
David.

Words that wound one person might alsoheal and liberate another 
person. Jesus said, "blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in 
me." We cannot judge the value of words based upon whether or not somebody 
in society does not like them. This is Liberty 101.

Peace be with you.David Miller.

Re: [TruthTalk] Free Speech

Caroline wrote:
 The question is, am I crossing the line to hate when I write the
 following:

 Romans 1 + Leviticus 20:13 = Do Not Practice Homosexuality.

 Please answer yes or no along with whatever commentary you like.
 Is this line above expressing hatred?  Canada says it is.

Caroline wrote:
 Canada is very tolerant of religious teaching.

LOL.  Please answer my question.

Caroline wrote:
 Saying that the bible prohibits homosexuality and that the
 bible calls homosexuality a sin is not hate.

I agree, but apparently you are not aware of what has been happening in 
Canada.  Please visit the following link and look at the ad that Hugh Owens 
paid $1,700 to place in the Saskatoon Star Phoenix.  The Saskatchewan Human 
Rights Commission says it is hatred and has ordered Mr. Owens to pay the 
three claimants $1,500 each.  Do you agree with the Judge that such an ad is 
hatred?

http://www.eunacom.net/SecularNews.htm

Caroline wrote:
 People can talk about many things from the holocaust to Islam
 without crossing the line into hate speech. It's hate when an
 Iman tells his people to bomb Christians. It's hate whenever
 someone incites others to harm another group because they
 are of a different religion, race or sexual orientation.

Except for the fact that your programming causes you to confuse 
homosexuality with race, it sounds like we are pretty much in agreement with 
this paragraph.  So why do you think we street preachers practice hate 
speech?  Please define hate speech clearly so that we can know what it is. 
This Judge says that Hugh Owens' ad is hate speech.  I don't see it.  If we 
cannot define hate speech, maybe we should just drop this whole notion of 
hate speech being a crime.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching

John wrote:
 Probably the grandest lesson of the biblical message
 is that found in the contrast of law to grace through
 faith and all that such includes (the failure of the law,
 the Incarnation, the ascension - etc.)  The truth of
 that contrast is at the heart of your difference of opinion
 with Caroline and others.
 ... That is David's opinion about God.   In his legalism
 (David's legalism), he somehow has confidence in the
 wrath of God  ... Psalm 7  (in places) reveals David's
 arrogance.

Oh, here we go again, cutting out those parts of the Bible that do not agree 
with our preconceived doctrine of humanism.  Just to set the record 
straight, the law never failed.  The law was and still is perfect.  The 
imperfect people who denigrade the law are the problem.

David was not arrogant.  He was a man after God's own heart.  We have been 
through all this before.  David knew a part of God's character that 
apparently you hate and reject.  I fear for you on judgment day.  I fear 
that as you have hated and rejected God for his wrath and judgment, so he 
will reject you.  True and righteous are the judgments of God.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


--
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how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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[TruthTalk] Lose Salvation?






DAVEH: ??? Why would you fear the Lord's judgment for another TTer
who has professed belief in Jesus? Is not faith alone sufficient
for salvation from your perspective? Would the possible
misunderstanding (rejection) of God's wrath and judgment cause one to
lose salvation?


David Miller wrote:

   I fear for you on judgment day.  I fear 
that as you have hated and rejected God for his wrath and judgment, so he 
will reject you. 


  


-- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

Re: [TruthTalk] Fond Farewells

DAVEH: The reason I ask is because of the big to do caused by Newsweek
publishing the sentence accusing the army of desecrating the Koran.
That led to the death of 15 people involved in riots over the past few
days.

SoI am curious to know if you (when preaching to the Muslims)
denigrate their Koran as you do to Mormons. Andif you do demean
their religion, what is their reaction. From what I've heard, excepting
a few relatively minor occurrences, LDS folks are somewhat placid and
calm in the face of the SPers. But, do the Muslims you preach to get
riled up when you denigrate their beliefs? Do you ever worry about any
deaths happening because of the contention your preaching might ignite?

Anddo you attempt to desecrate their Koran in an effort to get
their attention, as you might do the underwear of the LDS in SLC?

Ruben Israel wrote:
DAVEH: Ruben, the news the past few days got me thinking about how
some SPers preach. Do you guys attend any Muslim events (I don't even
know if there are any in the USA)?

Yes I have.
A)during their holy days earlier this year (I forgot the name) we
were at the Los Angles and Anaheim convention center, things were a
bit hot as L.A.P.D. came in big and fast or as the book of Acts says
no small stir

B)in Michigan there is a Muslim event/fest with thousands to
preach too and for some unknown reason Michigan is like a little Mecca.

C)After preaching against the sodomite parade in Chicago (over
450,000 strong) I visited the black Muslim Louis Farrakhan university
where a riot almost broke out. One police car just happen to pass by
and made a u-turn and called for back up. This officer waited inside
his car till about 6 other CPD showed up. The black mob started to
walk away when the police made showed.

D)Also at local meeting places where they come to pray

All these events are preached with anti Muslim, pro Jesus (only
begotten) pro Bible banners, why do you ask?

--
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you
ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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Re: [TruthTalk] Fond Farewells- Salvation

JD wrote:
More specifically, if God is the one who does the saving, something you may or may not believe, why would we even think to ask such a question?

But of course you have an opinion on the matter. You said, "you have no clue as to who is saved," which suggests that you interpret Kevin's opinion of Salvation as a wrong opinion. I was just asking why you said that.

And of course I beleive God is the one who does the saving. I'm afraid to ask, but now I wonder why you imply that I don't.

1 Cor. 2: 15-16 --But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

He that is spiritual judgeth all things. As spiritual men and women we aren't blind and deaf, we have discerning eyes and ears. We have the Spirit, whereby we have the mind of Christ. Now, we aren't greater than our Master, we don't instruct Him, but as a child of God I am granted access to the mind of Christ.

It is His decision and only the most arrogant would pretend to know His mind in these matters.

How can we be witnesses and ambassadors if we don't know the Master's mind?

Hebrews 10: 22-24 --Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works.

Arrogant? Well, we are todraw near in the full assurance of faith, if you want to call that arrogant. My question to you is, how can we consider one another and provoke each other unto love and good works without discernment of the Master's mind and His buisness? And I've chosen a rather tame example of "considering one another." What about needing to know the Master's mind when expelling a brother in sin from the church? Or in Mat. 18 when we rebuke a brother? Or what about John 20:23 when Jesus tells us that God will use us to let people know their sins are forgiven them?

Blessings,

Christine
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

The question should be, "How do you know if someone is lost when they claim the name, give diligence to the study of the written word, practice acts of faith and dedicate their whole life to God;" a second question should be, "What givesone the right to judge another saint whentheir life is no better than the one they criticize(Rom 2:1)?"

More specifically, if God is the one who does the saving, something you may or may not believe, why would we even think to ask such a question? It is His decision and only the most arrogant would pretend to know His mind in these matters.

-Original Message-From: Christine Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Tue, 17 May 2005 21:10:50 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fond Farewells- Salvation

knpraise wrote:How in the world can someone like
you (and those who are your bend the knee supporters) even hope to truly save the lost when you have no clue as to who is saved?

How do we know if someone is saved? I ask this sincerely.

Blessings,

Christine

PS- Feel free to ignore me if this is opening a can of worms or an otherwise stale topic, but I'm new to this board and genuinely curious, specifically about your comment, knpraise.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

You are so off base, Kevin. To imagine that one as judgmental as you would think
yourself to be accomplishing the work of the Lordwith the kind of trash that rolls off
your lips as natural as puss from an open sore is astounding. How in the world can someone like
you (and those who are your bend the knee supporters) even hope to truly save the lost when you
you have no clue as to who is saved? You are the perfect reason why there are no churches inthe
Central Valley who would even pretend to consider supporting a "street preacher." Admittedly,
they (the SP) are not all bad, but you certainly give them no help. Too bad you don't work for a
living -- it would go a long way to keeping you off the street. Fortunately for you, it is not
your effort that brings you reconciliation

Kevin shares from the heart to Caroline:

[TruthTalk] Preaching opportunities:

2005-05-18 Thread Ruben Israel

Like I don't have enough to do, now I got to pencil Mick and the boyz in.
Or when you thought it was safe to preach at rock concerts, the Rolling
Stones are backagain. How many times must we preach at their last
concert?
Click here for dates and cities: http://www.iorr.org/tour05/

1) These guys are so old, that the handicap parking must accommodate over
60,000 vehicles.
These guys are so old, that they used to take drugs before the concert, and
now their doctor recommends they take them during the concert too.
2) These guys are so old, that I think Ben Gay is sponsoring this one.
3) These guys are so old, that I believe Benny Hinn is joining them for a
healing service in the stadium after the concert.
4) These guys are so old, that I think the Gray Panthers will be the event
security.
5) These guys are so old, that instead of selling beer, the stadium will
sell Milk of Magnesia.
6) These guys are so old, that lawyers recommended a 20 minute nap in
between songs. 7) These guys are so old, that ambulances will drop off more
people than limos.
8) These guys are so old, that Vegas is taking bets that one of the four
will die before the tour hits Ohio.
9) These guys are so old, that if one or all die during the tour, who will
notice?

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you
ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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Re: [TruthTalk] Fond Farewells

Caroline wrote:
 Well folks, it's been mostly fun but I've gotta go.
 I'm spending too much time here and it's not good
 since I have to clean up my condo, put it on the
 market and move in a few short weeks. Things
 are just too busy. So I'll bid you all a fond farewell.

I'm sorry to see you go, Caroline.  You have certainly raised the level of 
discussion here to a higher intellectual level.  Please consider lurking for 
awhile or come back from time to time.  I get very busy and easily get more 
than a thousand unread messages in TruthTalk.  I don't take time to read 
them all and get caught up, but I will jump in again after reading the last 
several posts.  Sometimes people remind me of a question I might have missed 
in my busy schedule.

Our prayers are with you.  May you prosper and be in peace, even as your 
soul prospers.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Dispersions







Judy Taylor wrote:

  
  
  
  
  On Wed, 18 May 2005 00:09:26 -0700 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
DAVEH:  SureGod does look like a man, Kevin.  If Jesus
was the Son of man (Jn 3:13), then do you not think his Father in
Heaven was a Holy Man?

No; God is a Spirit (John 4:24) - Jesus
took our likeness upon Himself for a purpose. Psalm 91:4 speaks of
God's feathers and wings, do you suppose he looks like a bird/ a chicken
  

DAVEH: Do you believe you have a spirit as well, Judy? Does having a
spirit change the way one looks? If you do not believe God looks like
a man, then what do you think he looks like??? Do you believe Jesus is
in the express image of his Father in Heaven? (Heb 1:3)

  

And, if Jesus' physical body was in the form of a man, do you
not think his pre-mortal spiritual body may have been in a similar
form? 

No; before he took a body upon Himself
he was God the Word who appeared in His preincarnate state as
an angel, a cloud, fire, water from the
rock. You can't figure out God with a carnal mind Dave.
  

DAVEH: Do you believe it is important to understand the nature of God,
Judy?

  

To answer your last questionyes, many things are created
in a form before they become the actual entity. If we were created
in the image of God (Gen 1:26), and we will be like him when he appears
(1Jn 3:2), then does it not follow that God looks like a man?

No; the "image of God" speaks of nature
and character.
  

DAVEH: Really?!?!?! So you would believe (don't let me put words in
your mouth) that we could have been born with 4 legs and a tail and
still been in the image of God?

  
 You are trying to mix the spiritual
with the temporal.
The temporal is passing away - only the
spiritual is eternal. Transformed bodies are part of it but this does
not mean that Good looks like a man. He
did not leave us any representation of Jesus, noone knows what
he looks like other than he wasn't all
that good looking. 
  

DAVEH: You are losing me on that one, Judy. Do you not believe Jesus
currently has a resurrected physical body that resembles that of a man?

  
God knows our frame, we are such
idolaters that
we would do the same with him as
Israeldid with the bronze serpent.

 As for him being seen.is there any question about it? The
passages that suggest one cannot see God are obviously referring to
those who are carnal, since there are Biblical characters (such as
Moses  Stephen) who did see God. Furthermore, Gen 32:30 pretty
much illustrates that holy men can see God, and live. Was it not Jesus
who said...

Moses didn't see God, he only saw his
hind parts as he passed by and even that caused his face to shine so
that he had to wear a veil before the
ppl. Stephen had a vision of Jesus standing at the RH of the Father
but there is no indication that he saw the face of God.
  

DAVEH: What difference does it make that Moses did not see God's
face. That wasn't the question.Did Moses see God, and you
stipulated that he did..saw his hind parts .
So what's to debate.Moses saw God and lived. God has a body
(you've stipulated Moses saw part of that body) which can be seen. Case
closed, is it not?

  
 He said that because the man he
wrestled with represented God. Do you really think that God Himself
left his throne in heaven and came down to earth to wrestle with
Jacob? It was an angel.
  

DAVEH: Do you believe the hindparts Moses saw were God's hindparts, or
do you believe they were hindparts of an angel?

  
 Probably another manifestation of Jesus
in His preincarnate state.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. (Mt
5:8)

...Do you believe you can see God, Kevin? If not, perhaps you
are not pure enough in heart. 

Takes more than presumptuous belief
DaveH - It takes a pure heart (that is what God calls pure)


  

DAVEH:  You are losing me on this, Judy.  So you do believe
those with a pure heart the shall see
God? If so, then why would you take issue with my assertion that God
has a body that can be seen?

  
Kevin Deegan wrote: 

  So what would he look like? a man?
  Can he be seen?
  
  How can you be in the form of a man before you become a man?
  
  Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
  DAVEH:
No Kevin, I am not joking. I believe the Bible teaches that Jesus was
the God of the OT before his birth (Jn 1:1-14)I assume you agree.
From Jn 4:24, you do believe God of the OT was a spiritis that
correct, Kevin? Yet that spirit had the form of a body similar to
ours, as is evidenced by Gen 1:26-27 which explains that we were
created in his image. Furthermore, Paul suggests Jesus is the express
image of his Father. (Heb 1:3)

 Moses even describes some of God's body parts in Ex 33:20-23, and
whose similitude he beheld as mentioned in Num 12:18. Do you accept
the literalness

Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching

DM says Oh, here we go again, cutting out those parts of the Bible that do not agree with our preconceived doctrine of humanismThe law was and still is perfect.
SNIP - SNIP
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual
SNIP - SNIPSNIP - SNIP
PS 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
SNIP - SNIPSNIP - SNIPSNIP - SNIP
SNIP - SNIPSNIP - SNIPSNIP - SNIPSNIP - SNIPSNIP - SNIPSNIP - SNIPSNIP - SNIPSNIP - SNIPSNIP - SNIPSNIP - SNIPDavid Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
John wrote: Probably the grandest lesson of the biblical message is that found in the contrast of law to grace through faith and all that such includes (the failure of the law, the Incarnation, the ascension - etc.) The truth of that contrast is at the heart of your difference of opinion with Caroline and others. ... That is David's opinion about God. In his legalism (David's legalism), he somehow has confidence in the wrath of God ... Psalm 7 (in places) reveals David's arrogance.Oh, here we go again, cutting out those parts of the Bible that do not agree with our preconceived doctrine of humanism. Just to set the record straight, the law never failed. The law was and still is perfect. The imperfect people who denigrade the law are the problem.David was not arrogant. He was a
man after God's own heart. We have been through all this before. David knew a part of God's character that apparently you hate and reject. I fear for you on judgment day. I fear that as you have hated and rejected God for his wrath and judgment, so he will reject you. True and righteous are the judgments of God.Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
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Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching



I do not understand why you say the term "carnal Christian" is a misnomer coined by men
when it is so clearly a biblical word and concept used by Paul in the scripture cited. I do not doubt that in terms of event sin, you are an example of what is right about The Faith and God's workings within the heart of the believer. But it is a mistake to think that your experience is the same for all who are children of God.brethren in John's sphere ofinfluence may have had a problem, a falling short, of the practice of brotherly love. Obviously, the Corinthian church had more than one issueincluding divisive and sectarian bickering. And I could go on to include criticism recorded in every letter written tomembers of the first church. Ephesians 4:17 ff states clearly that the brethren there had not completely broken away from the pagan life -- babes in Christ, still carnal. 

It all goes back to thisgrowth thing. You imply that 20-40 years is enough time to get it right. Maybe. But, if that is a universal truth of some sort, why is it not a statement of scripture? Do you understand that I quote scripture, here? I read "carnal -- babes" in I Co 3:1 and know that I must, as 
a student of scripture, accept the implications implicit in Paul's use of those words. 

Regarding Psalm 51 -- I believe that Psalm 7 was written by David before Nathan paid him The visit and Psalm 51 was written afterwards - perhaps immediately afterwards. His contrast of an angry God with a merciful God is profoundly obvious in the two psalms. Both statements are his opinion of God. It is interesting to me that the arrogant Daivd (Psalm 7) remained a sinner and fully capable of the most disgusting of sins; a man who shouted out about the angry God and harsh judgment UNTIL the finger is pointed in his face. After Nathan's judgment, David appeals to a merciful God and acknowledges the this same God, the Giver of the Law, is more interested in brokenness and contrition of heart than He is of obedience (51:16-17). That is not to say that God cares not for obedience. There is a place for such and de
sire in His heart for obedience in the life of those who follow Him -- but before obedience can work, the lesson of contrition must be received. 

JD




Judy wrote:



JD the term "carnal Christian" is a misnomer coined by men; when Paul wrote this to the Corinthians who were in all kinds of envy, strife, and disunity, I for one am convinced thathe was not startinga "Carnal Christian" doctrine so that we could stay in our filth. This"babe in Christ" thing is a bit muchafter being a believer for 20-40yrs -kind of like the idea of "sinning that grace may abound" Hebrews teaches us that "the earth that drinketh in the rain (doctrine) that cometh oft upon it and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed receiveth blessing from God. But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing whose end is to be burned" (Heb 6:7,8)

Being burned is not a blessing. What does Psalm 51 have to do with God being angry every day with sinners? jt


On Tue, 17 May 2005 21:01:00 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED]com writes:



The same writer who gave us Romans also wrote I cor 3:! which makes it clear that there are carnal Christians -- babes in Christ. Is God happy or pleased to realize that there are those who have not progressed as He would prefer? Of course. Are carnal saints pleasing to God? Nope. But they are "babes" nonetheless.. having life in the family of God. The contrast between Ps 7 and Ps 51 remains. 

JD

From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]


[EMAIL PROTECTED]com wrote: 



Probably the grandest lesson ofthe biblical message is that found in the contrast of lawto grace through faith and all that such includes (the failure of the law, the Incarnation, the ascension - etc.) The truth of that contrast is at the heart of your difference of opinion with Caroline and others. 

Regarding Psalm 7:11 -- you press the point that David thinks or writes in this verse that God is angry a good deal of the time. That is David's opinion about God. In his legalism (David's legalism), he somehow has confidence in the wrath of God ==The carnal mind is enmity against God. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. For as many as are led by the spirit of God, THESE are the sons of God. To be carnally minded is death. (Little plums from Romans eight, new testament)

Re: [TruthTalk] Free Speech

Caroline wrote: Canada is very tolerant of religious teaching.DM wrote
LOL. Please answer my question.
CW's aversion to answering THE questionS has progressed to "see ya lata"
Could the aversion to answering the questionS have advanced to the aversion of just the questions?
David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Caroline wrote: The question is, am I crossing the line to hate when I write the following: Romans 1 + Leviticus 20:13 = Do Not Practice Homosexuality. Please answer yes or no along with whatever commentary you like. Is this line above expressing hatred? Canada says it is.Caroline wrote: Canada is very tolerant of religious teaching.LOL. Please answer my question.Caroline wrote: Saying that the bible prohibits homosexuality and that the bible calls homosexuality a sin is not hate.I agree, but apparently you are not aware of what has been happening in Canada. Please visit the following link and look at the ad that Hugh Owens paid $1,700 to place in the Saskatoon Star Phoenix. The Saskatchewan Human Rights Commission says it is hatred and has ordered Mr. Owens to
pay the three claimants $1,500 each. Do you agree with the Judge that such an ad is hatred?http://www.eunacom.net/SecularNews.htmCaroline wrote: People can talk about many things from the holocaust to Islam without crossing the line into hate speech. It's hate when an Iman tells his people to bomb Christians. It's hate whenever someone incites others to harm another group because they are of a different religion, race or sexual orientation.Except for the fact that your programming causes you to confuse homosexuality with race, it sounds like we are pretty much in agreement with this paragraph. So why do you think we street preachers practice hate speech? Please define hate speech clearly so that we can know what it is. This Judge says that Hugh Owens' ad is hate speech. I don't see it. If we cannot define hate speech, maybe we should just drop this whole notion of hate speech being a
crime.Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
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[TruthTalk] Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS doctrine on TT

2005-05-18 Thread Charles Perry Locke

Dave, you say you are not here to teach LDS doctrine, but that is exactly 
what you are doing. You may not be aware of the Socratic Method of 
teaching, but you are using it to teach LDS doctrine. Now, as far as I am 
concerned, it is your right to try to teach whatever you think is the truth 
using whatever method you feel compelled to use (within the gudelines) on 
TT. But at least be honest about it when you ar teaching LDS doctrine, 
rather than saying you do not do it, then doing it anyway.

Perry
From: Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Dispersions
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:17:32 -0700
Judy Taylor wrote:
  On Wed, 18 May 2005 00:09:26 -0700 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

DAVEH:   SureGod does look like a man, Kevin.   If Jesus was
the Son of man (Jn 3:13), then do you not think his Father in
Heaven was a Holy Man?  No; God is a Spirit (John 4:24) - 
Jesus took our likeness upon
Himself for a purpose.  Psalm 91:4 speaks of God's feathers and
wings, do you suppose he looks like a bird/ a chicken

DAVEH:  Do you believe you have a spirit as well, Judy?  Does having a 
spirit change the way one looks?   If you do not believe God looks like a 
man, then what do you think he looks like???  Do you believe Jesus is in 
the express image of his Father in Heaven?  (Heb 1:3)

  And, if Jesus' physical body was in the form of a man, do you 
not
think his pre-mortal spiritual body may have been in a similar
form?No; before he took a body upon Himself he was God 
the Word who
appeared in His preincarnate state as
an angel, a cloud, fire, water from the rock. You can't figure out
God with a carnal mind Dave.

DAVEH:  Do you believe it is important to understand the nature of God, 
Judy?

 To answer your last questionyes, many things are created in 
a
form before they become the actual entity. If we were created
in the image of God (Gen 1:26), and we will be like him when he
appears (1Jn 3:2), then does it not follow that God looks like a man?
 No; the image of God speaks of nature and character.

DAVEH:  Really?!?!?!   So you would believe (don't let me put words in your 
mouth) that we could have been born with 4 legs and a tail and still been 
in the image of God?

  You are trying to mix the spiritual with the temporal.
The temporal is passing away - only the spiritual is eternal. 
Transformed bodies are part of it but this does
not mean that Good looks like a man.  He did not leave us any
representation of Jesus, noone knows what
he looks like other than he wasn't all that good looking.

DAVEH:  You are losing me on that one, Judy.  Do you not believe Jesus 
currently has a resurrected physical body that resembles that of a man?

God knows our frame, we are such idolaters that
we would do the same with him as Israel did with the bronze serpent.
As for him being seen.is there any question about it?  
The passages that suggest one cannot see God are obviously
referring to those who are carnal, since there are Biblical
characters (such as Moses  Stephen) who did see God. 
Furthermore, Gen 32:30 pretty much illustrates that holy men can
see God, and live.  Was it not Jesus who said...
 Moses didn't see God, he only saw his hind parts as he passed by
and even that caused his face to shine so
that he had to wear a veil before the ppl.  Stephen had a vision
of Jesus standing at the RH of the Father but there is no
indication that he saw the face of God.

DAVEH:What difference does it make that Moses did not see God's face.  
That wasn't the question.Did Moses see God, and you stipulated that he 
did..saw his hind parts .  So what's to debate.Moses saw God and 
lived.  God has a body (you've stipulated Moses saw part of that body) 
which can be seen. Case closed, is it not?

  He said that because the man he wrestled with represented God. 
Do you really think that God Himself left his throne in heaven and
came down to earth to wrestle with
Jacob?  It was an angel.

DAVEH:  Do you believe the hindparts Moses saw were God's hindparts, or do 
you believe they were hindparts of an angel?

Probably another manifestation of Jesus in His preincarnate state.
*Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.*   (Mt 5:8)
...Do you believe you can see God, Kevin?  If not, perhaps
you are not pure enough in heart.
 Takes more than presumptuous belief DaveH - It takes a pure 
heart
(that is what God calls pure)

DAVEH:   You are losing me on this, Judy.   So you *do *believe those with 
a pure heart the shall see God?  If so, then why would you take issue with 
my assertion that God has a body that can be seen?

Kevin Deegan wrote:
So what would he look like? a man?
*Can he

Re: [TruthTalk] Lose Salvation?

DAVEH:
 ???   Why would you fear the Lord's judgment for
 another TTer who has professed belief in Jesus?
 Is not faith alone sufficient for salvation from your
 perspective?

How long have you read my posts and you do not discern that I do NOT believe 
in faith ALONE being sufficient?  How many times have I quoted James 2:24?

James 2:24
(24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and NOT BY FAITH 
ONLY.

The Bible says not by faith only or not by faith alone.  That settles 
the matter for me.  The faith alone theologian, Roman Catholic Reformer 
Martin Luther, wanted to burn this whole book of James, probably because of 
this one verse.  I am clearly NOT in Martin Luther's camp on this particular 
issue.  I do believe that we are justified by faith apart from works of the 
Torah, as Paul taught in Ephesians 2, but that is not the same thing as the 
faith alone doctrine which is an extra-Biblical doctrine.  I believe that 
faith is more than mental assent.  It is a trust in God based upon knowledge 
of the truth.  Such faith results in good works and such works also justify 
the believer before God.

DaveH wrote:
 Would the possible misunderstanding (rejection) of God's
 wrath and  judgment cause one to lose salvation?

A rejection of God's character reveals that a person does not have that 
intimate relationship with the Lord that comes through faith.  Like Kevin, I 
am very concerned for Caroline Wong.  She appears to have a great breadth of 
knowledge and experience in matters relating to Scripture, but she also buys 
into so much demonic doctrine that she appears very much to be like a Judas 
Iscariot.  How many of us would have discerned that Judas was not really of 
Christ but of Satan?  He preached the right message and interacted with 
Christ in a way that appeared superficially to be like all the other 
apostles.  He was called an apostle by Jesus Christ himself.  Yet, he 
rejected a certain character aspect of Christ and, therefore, in the end, he 
betrayed Christ and became rejected by God.  I'm hoping that Caroline is 
young and just exploring some of the views that she shares here and will 
ultimately reject them, but if she is not and embraces them ardently, this 
would be a true rejection of God and I would think that Kevin would be right 
for desiring her to find salvation in Jesus Christ.

The Bible teaches us that the righteous are scarcely saved.  How true, and 
how sobering this is for those of us who work out our salvation with fear 
and trembling.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching

It is interesting to me that the arrogant Daivd (Psalm 7) remained a sinner and fully capable of the most disgusting of sins; a man who shouted out about the angry God and harsh judgment UNTIL the finger is pointed in his face.
Does this make the man that has addictions a more spiritual man?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




I do not understand why you say the term "carnal Christian" is a misnomer coined by men
when it is so clearly a biblical word and concept used by Paul in the scripture cited. I do not doubt that in terms of event sin, you are an example of what is right about The Faith and God's workings within the heart of the believer. But it is a mistake to think that your experience is the same for all who are children of God.brethren in John's sphere ofinfluence may have had a problem, a falling short, of the practice of brotherly love. Obviously, the Corinthian church had more than one issueincluding divisive and sectarian bickering. And I could go on to include criticism recorded in every letter written tomembers of the first church. Ephesians 4:17 ff states clearly that the brethren there had not completely broken away from the pagan life -- babes in Christ, still carnal. 

It all goes back to thisgrowth thing. You imply that 20-40 years is enough time to get it right. Maybe. But, if that is a universal truth of some sort, why is it not a statement of scripture? Do you understand that I quote scripture, here? I read "carnal -- babes" in I Co 3:1 and know that I must, as 
a student of scripture, accept the implications implicit in Paul's use of those words. 

Regarding Psalm 51 -- I believe that Psalm 7 was written by David before Nathan paid him The visit and Psalm 51 was written afterwards - perhaps immediately afterwards. His contrast of an angry God with a merciful God is profoundly obvious in the two psalms. Both statements are his opinion of God. It is interesting to me that the arrogant Daivd (Psalm 7) remained a sinner and fully capable of the most disgusting of sins; a man who shouted out about the angry God and harsh judgment UNTIL the finger is pointed in his face. After Nathan's judgment, David appeals to a merciful God and acknowledges the this same God, the Giver of the Law, is more interested in brokenness and contrition of heart than He is of obedience (51:16-17). That is not to say that God cares not for
 obedience. There is a place for such and de sire in His heart for obedience in the life of those who follow Him -- but before obedience can work, the lesson of contrition must be received. 

JD




Judy wrote:



JD the term "carnal Christian" is a misnomer coined by men; when Paul wrote this to the Corinthians who were in all kinds of envy, strife, and disunity, I for one am convinced thathe was not startinga "Carnal Christian" doctrine so that we could stay in our filth. This"babe in Christ" thing is a bit muchafter being a believer for 20-40yrs -kind of like the idea of "sinning that grace may abound" Hebrews teaches us that "the earth that drinketh in the rain (doctrine) that cometh oft upon it and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed receiveth blessing from God. But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing whose end is to be burned" (Heb 6:7,8)

Being burned is not a blessing. What does Psalm 51 have to do with God being angry every day with sinners? jt


On Tue, 17 May 2005 21:01:00 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED]com writes:



The same writer who gave us Romans also wrote I cor 3:! which makes it clear that there are carnal Christians -- babes in Christ. Is God happy or pleased to realize that there are those who have not progressed as He would prefer? Of course. Are carnal saints pleasing to God? Nope. But they are "babes" nonetheless.. having life in the family of God. The contrast between Ps 7 and Ps 51 remains. 

JD

From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]


[EMAIL PROTECTED]com wrote: 



Probably the grandest lesson ofthe biblical message is that found in the contrast of lawto grace through faith and all that such includes (the failure of the law, the Incarnation, the ascension - etc.) The truth of that contrast is at the heart of your difference of opinion with Caroline and others. 

Regarding Psalm 7:11 -- you press the point that David thinks or writes in this verse that God is angry a good deal of the time. That is David's opinion about God. In his legalism (David's legalism), he somehow has confidence in the wrath of God ==The carnal mind is enmity against God. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. For as many as are led by the spirit of God, THESE are the sons of God. To be carnally minded is death. (Little plums from Romans eight, new testament)
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Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Dispersions

Did you attempt to answer this?
How can you be in the form of a man before you become a man?
I guess your answer was he was in the form of aman.So then was he a man or a god before he became a man?
Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
DAVEH: SureGod does look like a man, Kevin. If Jesus was the Son of man (Jn 3:13), then do you not think his Father in Heaven was a Holy Man? And, if Jesus' physical body was in the form of a man, do you not think his pre-mortal spiritual body may have been in a similar form? To answer your last questionyes, many things are created in a form before they become the actual entity. If we were created in the image of God (Gen 1:26), and we will be like him when he appears (1Jn 3:2), then does it not follow that God looks like a man? As for him being seen.is there any question about it? The passages that suggest one cannot see God are obviously referring to those who are carnal, since there are Biblical characters (such as Moses Stephen) who did see God.
Furthermore, Gen 32:30 pretty much illustrates that holy men can see God, and live. Was it not Jesus who said...Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. (Mt 5:8)...Do you believe you can see God, Kevin? If not, perhaps you are not pure enough in heart. Kevin Deegan wrote:

So what would he look like? a man?
Can he be seen?

God wants you to know him, He is a jealous God
He wants your love and affection.
If your description of Him is off, you are worshipping a god of your own making

Hos 11:9 I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee--
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
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Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Dispersions

On Wed, 18 May 2005 07:17:32 -0700 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

DAVEH: SureGod does look like a man, Kevin. If Jesus
was the Son of man (Jn 3:13), then do you not think his Father in Heaven was
a Holy Man?

No; God is a Spirit (John 4:24) - Jesus took our
likeness upon Himself for a purpose. Psalm 91:4 speaks of God's
feathers and wings, do you suppose he looks like a bird/ a
chicken
DAVEH: Do you believe you have a spirit as well, Judy? Does
having a spirit change the way one looks? If you do not believe
God looks like a man, then what do you think he looks like??? Do you
believe Jesus is in the express image of his Father in Heaven? (Heb
1:3)

I believe that I am primarily a spirit being; I have
a soul, and I live in a body. Actually I don't know what God looks like, I
know Him spiritually and yes Jesus is the express image of the Father but who
in this generation has seen Jesus? Even the ones who walked with Him in
the flesh didn't always comprehend. Phillip wasn't understandingwhen he
said "show us the Father" ... and he walked with Jesus' physical body
daily.

And, if Jesus' physical body was in the form of a man, do you
not think his pre-mortal spiritual body may have been in a similar
form?

No; before he took a body upon Himself he was God
the Word who appeared in His preincarnate state as an angel, a cloud, fire, water from the rock. You can't
figure out God with a carnal mind Dave.
DAVEH: Do you believe it is important to understand the nature of
God, Judy?

His nature and character yes... We are to be
conformed to that.

To answer your last questionyes, many things are created in a
form before they become the actual entity. If we
were created in the image of God (Gen 1:26), and we will be like him when
he appears (1Jn 3:2), then does it not follow that God looks like a
man?

No; the "image of God" speaks of nature and
character. 1 John 3:2 is referring to holiness of character and walking in
love toward God, others, and ourselves.
DAVEH: Really?!?!?! So you would believe (don't let me
put words in your mouth) that we could have been born with 4 legs and a tail
and still been in the image of God?

God made everything after it's kind; I guess he could
have given us four legs and a tail if he wanted to; we would have been like
cartoon characters and Lance would have approved then - but he
didn't

You are trying to mix the spiritual with the
temporal. The temporal is passing away - only
the spiritual is eternal. Transformed bodies are part of it but this
does not mean that Good looks like a man.
He did not leave us any representation of Jesus, noone knows
what
he looks like other than he wasn't all that good
looking.
DAVEH: You are losing me on that one, Judy. Do you not
believe Jesus currently has a resurrected physical body that resembles that of
a man?

Yes I believe he has a transformed body that looks
somewhat like the natural one he had but not exactly because some did not
recognize him when he was back on earth for those 40+ days... and yes the body
looks like a man but as the ONLY begotten Son of God he sits at the RH of the
Father so this does not tell us what God the Father looks like does it?
God knows our frame, we are such idolaters that
we would do the same with him as Israeldid
with the bronze serpent.As for him being seen.is there any
question about it? The passages that suggest one cannot see God
are obviously referring to those who are carnal, since there are Biblical
characters (such as Moses Stephen) who did see God. Furthermore,
Gen 32:30 pretty much illustrates that holy men can see God, and live.
Was it not Jesus who said...

Moses didn't see God, he only saw his hind parts
as he passed by and even that caused his face to shine so that he had to wear a veil before the ppl. Stephen had
a vision of Jesus standing at the RH of the Father but there is no
indication that he saw the face of God.
DAVEH: What difference does it make that Moses did not
see God's face. That wasn't the question.Did Moses see God, and you
stipulated that he did..saw his hind parts
. So what's to debate.Moses saw God and lived. God has
a body (you've stipulated Moses saw part of that body) which can be seen. Case
closed, is it not?

I thought you were trying to prove the scripture that
says "no man has seen God face to face" Wasn't that what you posted to begin
with? He Jacob said that because the
man he wrestled with represented God. Do you really think that God
Himself left his throne in heaven and came down to earth to wrestle with

Re: [TruthTalk] LDS cursing, threatening and spitting




I might faint :) - Could bewhy I am not out 
there in the street preaching. Christine, have you
had any experiences like that? judyt

On Sun, 15 May 2005 12:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  What would you do if someone spit in your face?
  I have seen SP's wipe their face  keep on preaching.
  Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  

Further proof that Mormonism is different from our 
Christian faith. Jesus taught and demonstrated forgiveness even 
blessing those who oppose and curse you - and 
this is our example in spite of theNIV translaters who have tried to 
sabbotage by cutting off the end of Matt 5:44. I've learned that 
we are not responsible for the actions of others 
but
weare responsible before God for our 
ownreaction to what they say and do. The street preachers could 
be a test for you fellows - and if so it sounds 
like you have allflunked. But then all these extra books of 
yours probably teach something different because 
it is against the adversary's best interests for you to make it. 
 judyt

On Sun, 15 May 2005 06:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Raymond: It 
sounds like anger to me. Probably brought about because some people seek to 
harass us, intimidate us, threaten us, mock us, and refuse to leave us 
alone. Some people challenge us over and over. We answer, but it's as though 
they don't hear us. I guess that they really don't want to. They see 
something different, assume that it's wrong, and nothing will change their 
minds.
I believe that 
they would do worse if they could.. 
snip

  
  Kevin: I 
  have video of LDS cursing, threatening and spitting. If it is not an 
  easily frustrated faith can you explain the spitting, cursing and 
  threatening?
  
  
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Re: [TruthTalk] Fond Farewells- Salvation

JD wrote:
More specifically, if God is the one who does the saving, something you may or may not believe, why would we even think to ask such a question?

But of course you have an opinion on the matter. Actually I do not. I believe that reconciliation has occurred for all mankind. Who is "saved" and "lost" of those reconciled is not something anyone knows. You said, "you have no clue as to who is saved," which suggests that you interpret Kevin's opinion of Salvation as a wrong opinion. Yes, and thank God Kevin does not know. I was just asking why you said that. With this response, is my opinion clear?

And of course I believe God is the one who does the saving. I'm afraid to ask, but now I wonder why you imply that I don't. No problem asking. You're a college girl -- used to reading and comprehending. Bias is something that gets in the way of successful communication much more often than we admit. My statement, once again, was if God is the one who does the saving, something you may or may not believe , the clear implication is that I do not know what you believe on that subject -- in view of the fact that this is actually what I wrote.

1 Cor. 2: 15-16 --But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

It is His decision and only the most arrogant would pretend to know His mind in these matters.

How can we be witnesses and ambassadors if we don't know the Master's mind?

When I wrote of an arrogant pretence, above, do you think I spoke of that knowledge critical to being a witness, or do you suppose my comments had more to do with the judgment of God relating to eternal destiny? Kevin Deegan has decided that neither I nor Caroline are saved when he has no clue as to the final destiny of any particular individual -- except himself, of course.

Arrogant? Well, we are todraw near in the full assurance of faith, if you want to call that arrogant. Your words, here, have nothing at all to do with what I wrote. My question to you is, how can we consider one another and provoke each other unto love and good works without discernment of the Master's mind and His business? I will be happy to discuss this with you as soon as we are finished discussing thefantasy that one can know of the eternal destiny of another. I believe there are two types of judgment, at least. One is the judgment of guilt or innocence -- we are fully capable to make this determination. A second area of judgment has to do with our sentence. In the secular courts, only the judge (in a criminal trial) can actually pass sentence. The jury determines guilt or innocence -- the judge determines sentence. Spiritually, there is only one judge -- and Deegan is not the guy. Neither are you. When we are told not to judge, what do you think that means? And I've chosen a rather tame example of "considering one another." What about needing to know the Master's mind when expelling a brother in sin from the church? Or in Mat. 18 when we rebuke a brother? Or what about John 20:23 when Jesus tells us that God will use us to let people know their sins are forgiven them?

Blessings,

Christine
[EMAIL PROTECTED]com wrote:

The question should be, "How do you know if someone is lost when they claim the name, give diligence to the study of the written word, practice acts of faith and dedicate their whole life to God;" a second question should be, "What givesone the right to judge another saint whentheir life is no better than the one they criticize(Rom 2:1)?"

More specifically, if God is the one who does the saving, something you may or may not believe, why would we even think to ask such a question? It is His decision and only the most arrogant would pretend to know His mind in these matters.

-Original Message-From: Christine Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Tue, 17 May 2005 21:10:50 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fond Farewells- Salvation

knpraise wrote:How in the world can someone like
you (and those who are your bend the knee supporters) even hope to truly save the lost when you have no clue as to who is saved?

How do we know if someone is saved? I ask this sincerely.

Blessings,

Christine

PS- Feel free to

Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching


 The same

-Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:50:49 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Street Preaching



It is interesting to me that the arrogant Daivd (Psalm 7) remained a sinner and fully capable of the most disgusting of sins; a man who shouted out about the angry God and harsh judgment UNTIL the finger is pointed in his face.
Does this make the man that has addictions a more spiritual man?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




I do not understand why you say the term "carnal Christian" is a misnomer coined by men
when it is so clearly a biblical word and concept used by Paul in the scripture cited. I do not doubt that in terms of event sin, you are an example of what is right about The Faith and God's workings within the heart of the believer. But it is a mistake to think that your experience is the same for all who are children of God.brethren in John's sphere ofinfluence may have had a problem, a falling short, of the practice of brotherly love. Obviously, the Corinthian church had more than one issueincluding divisive and sectarian bickering. And I could go on to include criticism recorded in every letter written tomembers of the first church. Ephesians 4:17 ff states clearly that the brethren there had not completely broken away from the pagan life -- babes in Christ, still carnal. 

It all goes back to thisgrowth thing. You imply that 20-40 years is enough time to get it right. Maybe. But, if that is a universal truth of some sort, why is it not a statement of scripture? Do you understand that I quote scripture, here? I read "carnal -- babes" in I Co 3:1 and know that I must, as 
a student of scripture, accept the implications implicit in Paul's use of those words. 

Regarding Psalm 51 -- I believe that Psalm 7 was written by David before Nathan paid him The visit and Psalm 51 was written afterwards - perhaps immediately afterwards. His contrast of an angry God with a merciful God is profoundly obvious in the two psalms. Both statements are his opinion of God. It is interesting to me that the arrogant Daivd (Psalm 7) remained a sinner and fully capable of the most disgusting of sins; a man who shouted out about the angry God and harsh judgment UNTIL the finger is pointed in his face. After Nathan's judgment, David appeals to a merciful God and acknowledges the this same God, the Giver of the Law, is more interested in brokenness and contrition of heart than He is of obedience (51:16-17). That is not to say that God cares not for obedience. There is a place for such and de
 sire in His heart for obedience in the life of those who follow Him -- but before obedience can work, the lesson of contrition must be received. 

JD




Judy wrote:



JD the term "carnal Christian" is a misnomer coined by men; when Paul wrote this to the Corinthians who were in all kinds of envy, strife, and disunity, I for one am convinced thathe was not startinga "Carnal Christian" doctrine so that we could stay in our filth. This"babe in Christ" thing is a bit muchafter being a believer for 20-40yrs -kind of like the idea of "sinning that grace may abound" Hebrews teaches us that "the earth that drinketh in the rain (doctrine) that cometh oft upon it and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed receiveth blessing from God. But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing whose end is to be burned" (Heb 6:7,8)

Being burned is not a blessing. What does Psalm 51 have to do with God being angry every day with sinners? jt


On Tue, 17 May 2005 21:01:00 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED]com writes:



The same writer who gave us Romans also wrote I cor 3:! which makes it clear that there are carnal Christians -- babes in Christ. Is God happy or pleased to realize that there are those who have not progressed as He would prefer? Of course. Are carnal saints pleasing to God? Nope. But they are "babes" nonetheless.. having life in the family of God. The contrast between Ps 7 and Ps 51 remains. 

JD

From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]


[EMAIL PROTECTED]com wrote: 



Probably the grandest lesson ofthe biblical message is that found in the contrast of lawto grace through faith and all that such includes (the failure of the law, the Incarnation, the ascension - etc.) The truth of that contrast is at the heart of your difference of opinion with Caroline and others. 

Regarding Psalm 7:11 -- you press the point that David thinks or writes in this verse that God is angry a good deal of the time. That is David's opinion about God. In his legalism (David's legalism), he somehow has confidence in the wrath of God ==The carnal mind is enmity against God. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. For as many as are led by the spirit of God, THESE are the sons of God. To be carnally minded is death. (Little plums from Romans eight,

Re: [TruthTalk] Fond Farewells- Salvation


This round of criticism from me has nothing to do with Deegan's SP antics. Rather, it has to do withhis arrogant judgment of Caroline's salvation - and mine, for that matter. 

-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]com To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 18 May 2005 06:50:55 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fond Farewells- Salvation



Then Paul was in the same shape JD because he was out there speaking the truth and the truth was enraging
those who disagreed with him even to the point that more than 40 of them made a vow that they would fast until they killed him. It wasn't only the Jews, in Ephesus the followers of the pagan goddess Diana acted the same way. But Jesus appeared to him while he was in jail (2yrs) for street preaching and told him to be of Good Cheer and that he would take the message to Rome. You must be following all this in your BSF Study - What is Kevin or any of the other Street Preachers doing that is so abhorrent? Just because men get upset with them doesn't mean that they are not doing what God has called them to do. We/they have the mind of Christ. jt

On Wed, 18 May 2005 00:44:52 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



The question should be, "How do you know if someone is lost when they claim the name, give diligence to the study of the written word, practice acts of faith and dedicate their whole life to God;" a second question should be, "What givesone the right to judge another saint whentheir life is no better than the one they criticize(Rom 2:1)?" 

More specifically, if God is the one who does the saving, something you may or may not believe, why would we even think to ask such a question?  It is His decision and only the most arrogant would pretend to know His mind in these matters. 

JD


From: Christine Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]



knpraise wrote:How in the world can someone like 
you (and those who are your bend the knee supporters) even hope to truly save the lost when you have no clue as to who is saved?

How do we know if someone is saved? I ask this sincerely.

Blessings,

Christine

PS- Feel free to ignore me if this is opening a can of worms or an otherwise stale topic, but I'm new to this board and genuinely curious, specifically about your comment, knpraise. 

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



You are so off base, Kevin. To imagine that one as judgmental as you would think


yourself to be accomplishing the work of the Lordwith the kind of trash that rolls off 
your lips as natural as puss from an open sore is astounding. How in the world can someone like 
you (and those who are your bend the knee supporters) even hope to truly save the lost when you
you have no clue as to who is saved? You are the perfect reason why there are no churches inthe
Central Valley who would even pretend to consider supporting a "street preacher." Admittedly, 
they (the SP) are not all bad, but you certainly give them no help. Too bad you don't work for a 
living -- it would go a long way to keeping you off the street. Fortunately for you, it is not 
your effort that brings you reconciliation

JD



Kevin shares from the heart to Caroline: 



Well so long,I really do hope you get saved!Caroline Wong caro[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
Well folks, it's been mostly fun but I've gotta go. I'm spending too much time here and it's not good since I have to clean up my condo, put it on the market and move in a few short weeks. Things are just too busy. So I'll bid you all a fond farewell.JD, Bill, it's been a real pleasure getting to know you.Judy, Izzy, David take care of yourselves.There are several others here that I didn't talk to as much mostly because of time constraints. I hope things go well for you and yours.Kevin, thanks for all the exchanges. You've sharpened me as iron sharpens iron. From now on, I won't be afraid to tangle with any KJV toting fundamentalist! I feel very light hearted about that. It was a season but one that has blessed me.Love and God Bless,Caroline --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every m an." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.


Yahoo! Mail MobileTake Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. 


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Re: [TruthTalk] LDS cursing, threatening and spitting

No, no one has ever spit at me. I've had students
curse at me, but no one has ever thrown anything or
touched me. Actually, in my experience the crowd is
usually respectful of my position as a young woman and
student out there preaching.

But I haven't been out there as long as my father, who
has been spit on many times. I'm pretty new to this
ministry, since it was only a couple months ago that
the Lord called me to it, so I've preached myself only
about a dozen times so far. 

You'd be surprised how much you aren't yourself out on
the streets, Judy. I am naturally a sensitive girl,
and would have echoed your sentiments if I had heard
them before March. :-)


Blessings,

Christine

--- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I might faint :)  - Could be why I am not out there
 in the street
 preaching.  Christine, have you
 had any experiences like that?  judyt
 
 On Sun, 15 May 2005 12:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Kevin
 Deegan
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 What would you do if someone spit in your face?
 I have seen SP's wipe their face  keep on
 preaching.
 
 
 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Further proof that Mormonism is different from our
 Christian faith. 
 Jesus taught and demonstrated forgiveness even
 blessing those who oppose
 and curse you - and this is our example in spite of
 the NIV translaters
 who have tried to sabbotage by cutting off the end
 of Matt 5:44. I've
 learned that we are not responsible for the actions
 of others but
 we are responsible before God for our own reaction
 to what they say and
 do.  The street preachers could be a test for you
 fellows - and if so it
 sounds like you have all flunked.  But then all
 these extra books of
 yours probably teach something different because it
 is against the
 adversary's best interests for you to make it.
 judyt
 
 On Sun, 15 May 2005 06:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Bothoms
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 writes:
 Raymond: It sounds like anger to me. Probably
 brought about because some
 people seek to harass us, intimidate us, threaten
 us, mock us, and refuse
 to leave us alone. Some people challenge us over and
 over. We answer, but
 it's as though they don't hear us. I guess that they
 really don't want
 to. They see something different, assume that it's
 wrong, and nothing
 will change their minds.
 I believe that they would do worse if they
 could.. snip
 Kevin: I have video of LDS cursing, threatening and
 spitting. If it is
 not an easily frustrated faith can you explain the
 spitting, cursing and
 threatening?
 
 
 Yahoo! Mail Mobile
 Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your
 mobile phone.



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If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] LDS cursing, threatening and spitting

Thanks so much for sharing that Christine,
It's encouraging to hear first hand how the Lord
empowers girls too.
What a blessing,between you Kevin and Ruben I'm
tempted to ask
the Lord if He wants me out there, I've done the
tracts before
We have a lot of seasonal ppl ministering down at the
oceanfront
in Virginia Beach. Agape Force used to be here
but I don't know
if they are still around.
Grace and Peace,
judyt

On Wed, 18 May 2005 12:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Christine Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
No, no one has ever spit at me. I've had students curse at me, but no
one has ever thrown anything or touched me. Actually, in my experience
the crowd is usually respectful of my position as a young woman
and student out there preaching. But I haven't been out
there as long as my father, who has been spit on many times. I'm pretty
new to this ministry, since it was only a couple months ago that
the Lord called me to it, so I've preached myself only about a dozen
times so far. You'd be surprised how much you aren't yourself
out on the streets, Judy. I am naturally a sensitive girl, and
would have echoed your sentiments if I had heard them before March.
:-) Blessings, Christine
--- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I might faint :) - Could be why I am not out there in
the street preaching. Christine, have you had
any experiences like that? judytOn Sun, 15 May
2005 12:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes: What would you do if someone spit in your face?
I have seen SP's wipe their face keep on
preaching. Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Further proof that Mormonism is different from our Christian
faith. Jesus taught and demonstrated forgiveness even
blessing those who oppose and curse you - and this is our example
in spite of the NIV translaters who have tried to
sabbotage by cutting off the end of Matt 5:44. I've
learned that we are not responsible for the actions of others
but we are responsible before God for our own reaction
to what they say and do. The street preachers could be a test
for you fellows - and if so it sounds like you have
all flunked. But then all these extra books of
yours probably teach something different because it is against
the adversary's best interests for you to make
it. judytOn Sun, 15
May 2005 06:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes: Raymond: It sounds like anger to me. Probably
brought about because some people seek to harass us, intimidate us,
threaten us, mock us, and refuse to leave us alone.
Some people challenge us over and over. We answer, but
it's as though they don't hear us. I guess that they really don't
want to. They see something different, assume that it's
wrong, and nothing will change their minds. I
believe that they would do worse if they could..
snip Kevin: I have video of LDS cursing, threatening
and spitting. If it is not an easily frustrated faith
can you explain the spitting, cursing and
threatening? Yahoo! Mail Mobile
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile
phone.

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Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
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salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man."
(Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If
you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join,
tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he
will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Fond Farewells- Salvation

JD wrote:
I believe that reconciliation has occurred for all
mankind.

Wait. Huh? I'm not sure I understand how you
distinguish between reconciled and saved. What do you
mean by reconciled?

 My statement, once again, was  if God is the one who
 does the saving, something you may or may not
 believe  ,  the clear implication is that I do not
 know what you believe on that subject.

Question: Would I be saved if I didn't beleive God is
the one who does the saving?

 When I wrote of an arrogant pretence, above, do you
 think I spoke of that knowledge critical to being a
 witness,  or do you suppose my comments had more to
 do with the judgment of God relating to eternal
 destiny?

I think both examples of knowledge are directly
related. When the OT prohets warned an unrighteous
Israel, they knew the mind of God to tell the
Israelites that they were in big spiritual trouble. In
Amos 5:18, he says, Woe to you that desire the Day of
the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the
LORD is darkness, and not light. He is telling the
people of Israel that the Day of the Lord will be a
day of justice and judgement, two things the
Israelites do not want to encounter, since they
practice evil. He was telling them that they were not
saved.

Equally, we are granted access to the mind of God when
we act as ambassadors, because we must not portray Him
as someone He is not. We must be able to discern what
is sinful, and teach others to discern and hate the
same, just as we must be able to discern when good
fruit is produced and when thorns are produced. When
thorns are produced, God promises that he will reject
and burn that plant (Heb. 6:8). 

You see, this knowledge isn't used to condemn anyone
or kick anyone out of the Christian Club. But
Revelations is clear about what will happen to the
Lukewarm. That's what makes the issue of whether or
not someone is saved a relevant issue. God wouldn't
intend for us to remain ignorant about identifying
thorns, because it's not too late. I don't know if
you're unsaved, JD. But with the Spirit, we can
recognize bad doctrine and attempt to answer it. I say
all of this very respectfully. 

So, doesn't 2 Cor. 2:15-16 resolve the matter?

 Spiritually, there is only
 one judge  --   and Deegan is not the guy.   Neither
 are you.

Right, I whole-heartedly agree. The messenger should
never be confused with the Master.

 When we are told not to judge, what do
 you think that means?

Well, Jesus tells us in Mat. 7 not to judge and to be
a hypocrite. But He also offers a solution:

4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out
the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in
thine own eye?
5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine
own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out
the mote out of thy brother's eye. 

Cast out the beam in your own eye, then assist your
brother with his mote problem. Jesus is saying not to
be hypocritical in your judging, which is hateful to
God. Judging is not ungodly, however. I would normally
copy and paste 1 Cor. 2:15-16 here, but you've already
read it recently. I beleive that verse still applies
to our situation.


Blessings,

Christine

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
 
 
 JD wrote:
 More specifically,  if God is the one who does the
 saving, something you may or may not believe,  why
 would we even think to ask such a question?
  
 But of course you have an opinion on the matter.
 Actually I do not.   I believe that reconciliation
 has occurred for all mankind.   Who is saved and
 lost  of those reconciled is not something anyone
 knows.  You said, you have no clue as to who is
 saved, which suggests that you interpret Kevin's
 opinion of Salvation as a wrong opinion. Yes, and
 thank God Kevin does not know.  I was just asking
 why you said that.  With this response, is my
 opinion clear?
  
 And of course I believe God is the one who does the
 saving. I'm afraid to ask, but now I wonder why you
 imply that I don't. No problem asking.   You're a
 college girl --  used to reading and comprehending. 
 Bias is something that gets in the way of successful
 communication much more often than we admit.   My
 statement, once again, was  if God is the one who
 does the saving, something you may or may not
 believe  ,  the clear implication is that I do not
 know what you believe on that subject --  in view of
 the fact that this is actually what I wrote.   
  
 1 Cor. 2: 15-16 --But he that is spiritual judgeth
 all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For
 who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may
 instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.  
  
 He that is spiritual judgeth all things. As
 spiritual men and women we aren't blind and deaf, we
 have discerning eyes and ears. We have the Spirit,
 whereby we have the mind of Christ. Now, we aren't
 greater than our Master, we don't instruct Him, but
 as a child of God I am granted access to the mind of
 Christ. 
  
 It is His decision and only the most arrogant

Re: [TruthTalk] LDS cursing, threatening and spitting

How exciting, Judy! I know for a long time before the
Lord had me preaching, I would hang around when other
street preachers came to campus. I would witness to
bystanders, and I was able to listen to the exchanges
between the SP's and the students. If you're seeing a
lot of that action where you're at, praise God. I
would definately encourage you to seek the Lord about
that, especially if you're feeling encouraged about
preaching. All it takes is a crowded plaza or street
corner. You don't have to have fancy signs. Actually,
one time the Pagan Club set up a booth and that was
better than any sign I could have made. The crowd
gathered almost automatically when I stood in front of
their table. 

Lord bless you, Judy. Keep me posted on that.

Christine

 
--- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Thanks so much for sharing that Christine,
 It's encouraging to hear first hand how the Lord
 empowers girls too.
 What a blessing, between you Kevin and Ruben I'm
 tempted to ask
 the Lord if He wants me out there,  I've done the
 tracts before
 We have a lot of seasonal ppl ministering down at
 the oceanfront
 in Virginia Beach.  Agape Force used to be here but
 I don't know
 if they are still around.
 Grace and Peace,
 judyt
 
 
 
 On Wed, 18 May 2005 12:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Christine
 Miller
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  No, no one has ever spit at me. I've had students
  curse at me, but no one has ever thrown anything
 or
  touched me. Actually, in my experience the crowd
 is
  usually respectful of my position as a young woman
 and
  student out there preaching.
  
  But I haven't been out there as long as my father,
 who
  has been spit on many times. I'm pretty new to
 this
  ministry, since it was only a couple months ago
 that
  the Lord called me to it, so I've preached myself
 only
  about a dozen times so far. 
  
  You'd be surprised how much you aren't yourself
 out on
  the streets, Judy. I am naturally a sensitive
 girl,
  and would have echoed your sentiments if I had
 heard
  them before March. :-)
  
  
  Blessings,
  
  Christine
  
  --- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   I might faint :)  - Could be why I am not out
 there
   in the street
   preaching.  Christine, have you
   had any experiences like that?  judyt
   
   On Sun, 15 May 2005 12:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Kevin
   Deegan
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
   What would you do if someone spit in your face?
   I have seen SP's wipe their face  keep on
   preaching.
   
   
   Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Further proof that Mormonism is different from
 our
   Christian faith. 
   Jesus taught and demonstrated forgiveness even
   blessing those who oppose
   and curse you - and this is our example in spite
 of
   the NIV translaters
   who have tried to sabbotage by cutting off the
 end
   of Matt 5:44. I've
   learned that we are not responsible for the
 actions
   of others but
   we are responsible before God for our own
 reaction
   to what they say and
   do.  The street preachers could be a test for
 you
   fellows - and if so it
   sounds like you have all flunked.  But then all
   these extra books of
   yours probably teach something different because
 it
   is against the
   adversary's best interests for you to make it.  
  
   judyt
   
   On Sun, 15 May 2005 06:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Bothoms
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   writes:
   Raymond: It sounds like anger to me. Probably
   brought about because some
   people seek to harass us, intimidate us,
 threaten
   us, mock us, and refuse
   to leave us alone. Some people challenge us over
 and
   over. We answer, but
   it's as though they don't hear us. I guess that
 they
   really don't want
   to. They see something different, assume that
 it's
   wrong, and nothing
   will change their minds.
   I believe that they would do worse if they
   could.. snip
   Kevin: I have video of LDS cursing, threatening
 and
   spitting. If it is
   not an easily frustrated faith can you explain
 the
   spitting, cursing and
   threatening?
   
   
   Yahoo! Mail Mobile
   Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your
   mobile phone.
  
  
  
  __ 
  Yahoo! Mail Mobile 
  Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your
 mobile phone. 
  http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail 
  --
  Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned
 with salt, that you 
  may know how you ought to answer every man. 
 (Colossians 4:6) 
  http://www.InnGlory.org
  
  If you do not want to receive posts from this
 list, send an email to 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be
 unsubscribed.  If you 
  have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send
 an e-mail to 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be
 subscribed.
  
  




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Re: [TruthTalk] To Sir With Love

2005-05-18 Thread ttxpress




ftr, in Scripture 
thereare four unique Gospel paradigms to compare and 
contrast--dualismwanders aimlesslyoutsidetheir message/s, in 
philosophical circles

On Sat, 14 May 2005 21:08:16 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Paradigms have nothing to do with anything..I'm 
  talking about truth..

Re: [TruthTalk] Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS doctrine on TT

2005-05-18 Thread ttxpress





very interesting, 
CP

 g :: tt moderator

On Wed, 18 May 2005 07:41:49 -0700 "Charles Perry 
Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes: Dave, you say you are not here to teach LDS doctrine, but that 
is  exactlywhat you are doing..
||

Re: [TruthTalk] Fond Farewells

2005-05-18 Thread ttxpress





usually, what goes 
around, comes around--in this case, soon,hopefully:)

On Wed, 18 May 2005 10:30:18 -0400 "David Miller" 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes: Caroline wrote:  Well folks, it's been mostly fun 
but I've gotta go..||

Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Hate in Canada

http://www.uregina.ca/hri/I_Could_Not_Speak_My_Heart.pdf
It seems the academics have gotten carried away with their own homosexual activism and ignored our nation's libel laws. Unlike myself; whenI criticize homosexual conduct, I tend to make sure the events actually happened, ie: exposing lesbian child rape scenes at Regina's Queer City Cinema. These folks have chosen to name me bymy name and have stated on their website and presumably at their conference thatI advocate"the killing of all sodomites." This is a lie. My lawyer has demanded a public apology and hasput the university on notice of a possible lawsuit. Please pray for this..
Bill Whatcott, Christian Truth Activist

Now for Focus on the Family News

ACTIVIST BARRED FROM DISTRIBUTING "HATEFUL" MATERIALS
Social activist Bill Whatcott says he will appeal a ruling by the Saskatchewan Human Rights Tribunal that found him guilty of distributing flyers found to expose homosexuals to hatred and ridicule, the Saskatoon Star-Phoenix reported Saturday.
The tribunal decided that the accused had demonstrated "a clear pattern or practise of disregard for protected rights."
Whatcott was ordered to compensate the four complainants in the case a total of $17,500. He was also forbidden from distributing the flyers "or any similar material which promotes hatred against individuals because of their sexual orientation."
The flyers, which Whatcott had placed in mailboxes between September 2001 and April 2002, reportedly referred to homosexuals as "sodomites."
"I believe homosexuality activity is a sin," Whatcott, who professes to be a Christian, told the Star-Phoenix. "I really believe that. And to give me a $17,500 fine and say I can't say that is quite frankly garbage and is not something I am going to abide by."
Whatcott says he will appeal the decision on grounds that it tramples on his Charter-protected rights to freedom of _expression and freedom of religion.
Whatcott is among a growing list of Christians who have been found guilty by human rights bodies and the courts of actions and statements deemed to be discriminatory of homosexuals.
They include Quesnel, B.C., teacher-counsellor Chris Kempling, Toronto printer Scott Brockie, a Catholic high school in Durham, Ontario, that refused to allow student Marc Hall bring his male date to a prom, and the owners of a family-run bed-and-breakfast in Prince Edward Island who decided to go out of business rather than be forced to allow
same-sex couples to stay in their home.
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Re: [TruthTalk] LDS cursing, threatening and spitting

Hey it is easy.
1) Drive to oceanfront, locate large crowds of people
2) place tract in hand, hold it toward approaching crowd
3) repeat step 2Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Thanks so much for sharing that Christine,
It's encouraging to hear first hand how the Lord empowers girls too.
What a blessing,between you Kevin and Ruben I'm tempted to ask
the Lord if He wants me out there, I've done the tracts before
We have a lot of seasonal ppl ministering down at the oceanfront
in Virginia Beach. Agape Force used to be here but I don't know
if they are still around.
Grace and Peace,
judyt

On Wed, 18 May 2005 12:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Christine Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: No, no one has ever spit at me. I've had students curse at me, but no one has ever thrown anything or touched me. Actually, in my experience the crowd is usually respectful of my position as a young woman and student out there preaching. But I haven't been out there as long as my father, who has been spit on many times. I'm pretty new to this ministry, since it was only a couple months ago that the Lord called me to it, so I've preached myself only about a dozen times so far. You'd be surprised how much you aren't yourself out on the streets, Judy. I am naturally a sensitive girl, and would have echoed your sentiments if I had heard them before March. :-) Blessings,
Christine --- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I might faint :) - Could be why I am not out there in the street preaching. Christine, have you had any experiences like that? judytOn Sun, 15 May 2005 12:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What would you do if someone spit in your face? I have seen SP's wipe their face keep on preaching. Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Further proof that Mormonism is different from our Christian faith. Jesus taught and demonstrated forgiveness even blessing those who
oppose and curse you - and this is our example in spite of the NIV translaters who have tried to sabbotage by cutting off the end of Matt 5:44. I've learned that we are not responsible for the actions of others but we are responsible before God for our own reaction to what they say and do. The street preachers could be a test for you fellows - and if so it sounds like you have all flunked. But then all these extra books of yours probably teach something different because it is against the adversary's best interests for you to make it. judytOn Sun, 15 May 2005 06:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Bothoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Raymond: It sounds like
anger to me. Probably brought about because some people seek to harass us, intimidate us, threaten us, mock us, and refuse to leave us alone. Some people challenge us over and over. We answer, but it's as though they don't hear us. I guess that they really don't want to. They see something different, assume that it's wrong, and nothing will change their minds. I believe that they would do worse if they could.. snip Kevin: I have video of LDS cursing, threatening and spitting. If it is not an easily frustrated faith can you explain the spitting, cursing and threatening? Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
__ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

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Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Hate in Canada

2005-05-18 Thread Terry Clifton





Kevin Deegan wrote:

  
  
  http://www.uregina.ca/hri/I_Could_Not_Speak_My_Heart.pdf
  
  It seems the academics have gotten
carried away with their own homosexual activism and ignored our
nation's libel laws. Unlike myself; whenI criticize homosexual
conduct, I tend to make sure the events actually happened, ie: exposing
lesbian child rape scenes at Regina's Queer City Cinema. These folks
have chosen to name me bymy name and have stated on their website and
presumably at their conference thatI advocate"the killing of all
sodomites." This is a lie. My lawyer has demanded a public apology and
hasput the university on notice of a possible lawsuit. Please pray for
this..
  Bill Whatcott, Christian Truth
Activist
  
  Now for Focus on the Family News
  
  
  ACTIVIST
BARRED FROM DISTRIBUTING "HATEFUL" MATERIALS
  Social activist Bill Whatcott says he will
appeal a ruling by the
Saskatchewan Human Rights Tribunal that found him guilty of
distributing flyers found to expose homosexuals to hatred and ridicule,
the Saskatoon
Star-Phoenix reported Saturday. 
  The tribunal decided that the accused had
demonstrated "a clear pattern or practise of disregard for protected
rights."
  Whatcott was ordered to compensate the four
complainants in the case a total of $17,500. He was also forbidden from
distributing the flyers "or any similar material which promotes hatred
against individuals because of their sexual orientation." 
  The flyers, which Whatcott had placed in
mailboxes between September 2001 and April 2002, reportedly referred to
homosexuals as "sodomites."
  "I believe homosexuality activity is a sin,"
Whatcott, who professes to be a Christian, told the Star-Phoenix. "I really believe
that. And to give me a $17,500 fine and say I can't say that is quite
frankly garbage and is not something I am going to abide by."
  Whatcott says he will appeal the decision on
grounds that it tramples on his Charter-protected
rights to freedom of _expression and freedom of religion. 
  Whatcott is among a growing list of
Christians who have been found guilty by human rights bodies and the
courts of actions and statements deemed to be discriminatory of
homosexuals. 
  They include Quesnel, B.C., teacher-counsellor
  Chris Kempling,
Toronto printer Scott Brockie, a
Catholic high school in Durham, Ontario, that refused to allow student Marc Hall
bring his male date to a prom, and the owners of a family-run bed-and-breakfast
in Prince Edward Island who decided to go out of business rather than
be forced to allow same-sex couples to stay in their home.
  
  

   
  
Too bad we aren't going by old testament rules. There are very few
problems that cannot be solved by the proper use of high explosives.

[TruthTalk] [Fwd: LIGHTNING BUGS]

2005-05-18 Thread Terry Clifton













http://www.tomslighthouse.net/lighthse/foot134.htm

Re: [TruthTalk] Godhead

Among the topics covered in the Lectures on Faith include the importance of having a correct idea of the nature of God in order to have true faith in him

"The first part of the book will be found to contain a series of Lectures as delivered before a Theological class in this place, and in consequence of their embracing the important DOCTRINE OF SALVATION, we have arranged them into the following work." signed by Joe Smith Preface to the 1835 Edition of the Doctrine and Covenants

"Now the Prophet did know something about these Lectures on Faith, because he helped to prepare them, and he helped also to revise these lectures before they were published" (Jos Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 3, page 195)

The reasons for the omission of these Lectures from the Doctrine and Covenants beginning in the 1921 edition and all the subsequent editions as given by John William Fitzgerald
"It was thought by Elder James E. Talmage, chairman, and other members of the committee who were responsible for their omission that to avoid confusion and contention on this vital point of belief, it would be better not to have them bound in the same volume as the commandments or revelations which make up the Doctrine and Covenants. " (A Study of the Doctrine and Covenants, M.A. Thesis, Brigham Young University, page 344)

To avoid "confusion and contention" the Mormon leaders slyly removed the Lectures on Faith from the Doctrine and Covenants, even though Joseph Smith had thought them important enough to be included. John William Fitzgerald states as follows on page 345 of his thesis, A Study of the Doctrine and Covenants: "The Lectures on Faith were voted on unanimously by the conference assembled August 17, 1835 to be included in the forthcoming book of doctrine and covenants. The writer could find no documentary evidence that they were voted on by the general conference of the Church to be omitted in the 1921 and all subsequent editions of the Doctrine [and] Covenants."

The confusion is found in the fact that they teach among other problematic things:

The godhead is made up of TWO personages The Father being a personage of spirit ( hadno body)
The Son a personage of tabernacle (had a body)

http://www.centerplace.org/hs/dc/lec-005.htm
5:1We shall in this lecture speak of the Godhead; we mean the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
5:2There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing, and supreme power over all thing
5:2 The Father being a personage of spirit
5:2 The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle
Question 3 Q. How many personages are there in the Godhead?A. Two: the Father and the Son (Lecture 5:1).__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

RE: [TruthTalk] Welcome









You are a very brave young lady,
Christine! We have some folks here that could use your wisdom (myself
included.) Izzy











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christine Miller
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 9:56
PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Welcome







Hello, Terry, and thanks for the welcome. Yes, I am his oldest
daughter. I'm home for the summer and have decided to dive into TT. Cannonball!
:-)

Terry Clifton
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:








Welcome Christine. Any relationship to David Miller?
Terry
--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend
who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
and he will be subscribed.



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RE: [TruthTalk] Fond Farewells

Another Canadian wimps out. :-) Sorry to see you go, Caroline--blessings in
your endeavors, and come back when things calm down, Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Caroline Wong
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 6:36 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: [TruthTalk] Fond Farewells

Well folks, it's been mostly fun but I've gotta go. I'm spending too much 
time here and it's not good since I have to clean up my condo, put it on the

market and move in a few short weeks. Things are just too busy. So I'll bid 
you all a fond farewell.

JD, Bill, it's been a real pleasure getting to know you.
Judy, Izzy, David take care of yourselves.
There are several others here that I didn't talk to as much mostly because 
of time constraints. I hope things go well for you and yours.
Kevin, thanks for all the exchanges. You've sharpened me as iron sharpens 
iron. From now on, I won't be afraid to tangle with any KJV toting 
fundamentalist! I feel very light hearted about that. It was a season but 
one that has blessed me.

Love and God Bless,

Caroline 

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
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RE: [TruthTalk] Fond Farewells- Salvation









Wrong again, JD. John 7: 24Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment. Izzy



-Original Message-

JD wrote:

 When we are told not to judge, what do

 you think that means?

Re: [TruthTalk] Fond Farewells- Salvation

2005-05-18 Thread Terry Clifton





ShieldsFamily wrote:

  
  
  

  
  Wrong again, JD. John 7: 24"Do not judge
according to appearance, but judge
with righteous judgment." Izzy
  
  -Original Message-
  JD wrote:
   When we are told not to judge, what do
   you think that means? 
  

=
Don't throw what is holy to the dogs and don't throw pearls to swine.
It's a judgment call. Who are the hogs and which are the dogs? Can't
tell by reading the program. Got to decide for myself.

Re: [TruthTalk] Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS doctrine on TT

DAVEH:  Golly, PerryWhen asked a question, I try (time allowing) to 
answer it.  Are you surprised that I would give an answer that is 
congruent with my LDS rooted beliefs?I've not heard of the SM method 
of teachingBut, is the way I answer the questions a problem for you, 
Perry.  It seems that when I give a brief answer by merely quoting a 
single passage as evidence in support of my belief, you criticize me for 
prooftexting.  When I quote several passages of support of my beliefs, 
now you criticize me for teaching LDS doctrine.  I'm perplexed, Perry.  
Just how do you want me to respond to questions posed to me on TT?

   BTWDid you notice that I asked Kevin a number of questions as I 
answered his questions, yet instead of directly answering them, he just 
egged me on (if that is the proper way to frame it) with more questions 
to draw out my own beliefsfor which you are finding fault.  I 
repeatI did not come to TT to preach LDS theology, nor to convert 
other TTers to Mormonism.  My interest in being here is based on my 
curiosity why Protestants (and in the case, most TTers) would think 
about things like this.  To me it is pretty obvious that God has the 
form of a man, and that he can be seen by man.  I derived my thinking on 
this from my LDS background, and I feel the Bible sufficiently supports 
my belief.  Yet apparently some TTers like Kevin, Judy and presumably 
you disagree...is that correct?  Why?  Is not the Bible plain in 
revealing that men have seen God in the form of a man in Bible times?  
Do you not see why I am so curious to learn why any Bible believing 
Christian would not see it as I do?  To me it is simply illogical to 
think God is not in the form of a man.  If you don't agree with me, 
please tell me what you think God looks like Perry???  Do you really 
think he does not exist in the form of a man?

   Now PerryIf you think my thinking on this is strictly a Mormon 
quirk, I suspect there are other TTers who would agree with what I said 
above.  At one time I remember DavidM suggesting the Bible teaches that 
God has body parts.  (Am I loosely quoting you right on that, DavidM?)   
And logicallyif God has body parts, what conclusions would that lead 
to, Perry?

   So Perrywhat's the problem?  If you feel that I am teaching 
Mormonism, how bad can that be if the Bible teaches the same?  And...I 
stand by my original statement...I did not join TT to preach Mormonism 
or convert TTers to Mormonism.  I'm hear to find out what others 
believe, and why they believe it.   If you do not want to know what I 
believe, don't ask me what I believeand be sure to delete (without 
reading) any of my responses to questions that are asked of me by others.

Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave, you say you are not here to teach LDS doctrine, but that is 
exactly what you are doing. You may not be aware of the Socratic 
Method of teaching, but you are using it to teach LDS doctrine. Now, 
as far as I am concerned, it is your right to try to teach whatever 
you think is the truth using whatever method you feel compelled to use 
(within the gudelines) on TT. But at least be honest about it when you 
ar teaching LDS doctrine, rather than saying you do not do it, then 
doing it anyway.

Perry
From: Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Dispersions
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:17:32 -0700
Judy Taylor wrote:
  On Wed, 18 May 2005 00:09:26 -0700 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

DAVEH:   SureGod does look like a man, Kevin.   If Jesus was
the Son of man (Jn 3:13), then do you not think his Father in
Heaven was a Holy Man?  No; God is a Spirit (John 4:24) 
- Jesus took our likeness upon
Himself for a purpose.  Psalm 91:4 speaks of God's feathers and
wings, do you suppose he looks like a bird/ a chicken

DAVEH:  Do you believe you have a spirit as well, Judy?  Does having 
a spirit change the way one looks?   If you do not believe God looks 
like a man, then what do you think he looks like???  Do you believe 
Jesus is in the express image of his Father in Heaven?  (Heb 1:3)

  And, if Jesus' physical body was in the form of a man, do 
you not
think his pre-mortal spiritual body may have been in a similar
form?No; before he took a body upon Himself he was 
God the Word who
appeared in His preincarnate state as
an angel, a cloud, fire, water from the rock. You can't figure out
God with a carnal mind Dave.

DAVEH:  Do you believe it is important to understand the nature of 
God, Judy?

 To answer your last questionyes, many things are 
created in a
form before they become the actual entity. If we were created
in the image of God (Gen 1:26), and we will be like him when he
appears (1Jn 3:2), then does it not follow that God looks like a 
man?
 No; the image of God speaks of nature and character.

Re: [TruthTalk] Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS doctrine on TT

If you don't agree with me, please tell me what you think God looks like Perry???

God is a spirit
God is invisible.Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
DAVEH: Golly, PerryWhen asked a question, I try (time allowing) to answer it. Are you surprised that I would give an answer that is congruent with my LDS rooted beliefs? I've not heard of the SM method of teachingBut, is the way I answer the questions a problem for you, Perry. It seems that when I give a brief answer by merely quoting a single passage as evidence in support of my belief, you criticize me for prooftexting. When I quote several passages of support of my beliefs, now you criticize me for teaching LDS doctrine. I'm perplexed, Perry. Just how do you want me to respond to questions posed to me on TT?BTWDid you notice that I asked Kevin a number of questions as I answered his questions, yet instead of directly answering them, he just egged me on (if that is the proper way to frame it) with more questions to draw
out my own beliefsfor which you are finding fault. I repeatI did not come to TT to preach LDS theology, nor to convert other TTers to Mormonism. My interest in being here is based on my curiosity why Protestants (and in the case, most TTers) would think about things like this. To me it is pretty obvious that God has the form of a man, and that he can be seen by man. I derived my thinking on this from my LDS background, and I feel the Bible sufficiently supports my belief. Yet apparently some TTers like Kevin, Judy and presumably you disagree...is that correct? Why? Is not the Bible plain in revealing that men have seen God in the form of a man in Bible times? Do you not see why I am so curious to learn why any Bible believing Christian would not see it as I do? To me it is simply illogical to think God is not in the form of a man. If you don't agree with me, please tell me what you think God looks like Perry??? Do you
really think he does not exist in the form of a man?Now PerryIf you think my thinking on this is strictly a Mormon quirk, I suspect there are other TTers who would agree with what I said above. At one time I remember DavidM suggesting the Bible teaches that God has body parts. (Am I loosely quoting you right on that, DavidM?) And logicallyif God has body parts, what conclusions would that lead to, Perry?So Perrywhat's the problem? If you feel that I am teaching Mormonism, how bad can that be if the Bible teaches the same? And...I stand by my original statement...I did not join TT to preach Mormonism or convert TTers to Mormonism. I'm hear to find out what others believe, and why they believe it. If you do not want to know what I believe, don't ask me what I believeand be sure to delete (without reading) any of my responses to questions that are asked of me by others.Charles Perry Locke
wrote: Dave, you say you are not here to teach LDS doctrine, but that is exactly what you are doing. You may not be aware of the "Socratic Method" of teaching, but you are using it to teach LDS doctrine. Now, as far as I am concerned, it is your right to try to teach whatever you think is the truth using whatever method you feel compelled to use (within the gudelines) on TT. But at least be honest about it when you ar teaching LDS doctrine, rather than saying you do not do it, then doing it anyway. Perry From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Dispersions Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:17:32 -0700 Judy Taylor wrote: On Wed, 18 May 2005 00:09:26 -0700 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes: DAVEH: SureGod does look like a man, Kevin. If Jesus was the Son of man (Jn 3:13), then do you not think his Father in Heaven was a Holy Man? No; God is a Spirit (John 4:24) - Jesus took our likeness upon Himself for a purpose. Psalm 91:4 speaks of God's feathers and wings, do you suppose he looks like a bird/ a chicken DAVEH: Do you believe you have a spirit as well, Judy? Does having a spirit change the way one looks? If you do not believe God looks like a man, then what do you think he looks like??? Do you believe Jesus is in the express image of his Father in Heaven? (Heb 1:3) And, if Jesus' physical body was in the form of a man, do you not think his pre-mortal spiritual body may have been in a similar form? No;
before he took a body upon Himself he was God the Word who appeared in His preincarnate state as an angel, a cloud, fire, water from the rock. You can't figure out God with a carnal mind Dave. DAVEH: Do you believe it is important to understand the nature of God, Judy? To answer your last questionyes, many things are created in a form before they become the actual entity. If we were created in the image of God (Gen 1:26), and we will be like him when he appears (1Jn 3:2), then does it not follow that God looks like a man? No; the "image of God" speaks of nature and character. DAVEH: Really?!?!?! So you would

RE: [TruthTalk] Welcome

I blush. Thank you for your kind words, Izzy. ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:









You are a very brave young lady, Christine! We have some folks here that could use your wisdom (myself included.) Izzy





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christine MillerSent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 9:56 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Welcome


Hello, Terry, and thanks for the welcome. Yes, I am his oldest daughter. I'm home for the summer and have decided to dive into TT. Cannonball! :-)Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Welcome Christine. Any relationship to David Miller?Terry--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
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Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.

Re: [TruthTalk] Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS doctrine on TT

Gods revelation of Himself is complete in Jesus
JN 14:8-9 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Jesus is the image of God
2 Co 4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Jesus is the express image of God
Hb 1:3 the express image of his person
What is the image of? "THE Invisible God"
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God
"is the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15). The Greek word for "image" is eikon, referring to a representation of something, and denoting the manifestation of a substance. Notice that Paul contrasted Jesus' image to that of the invisible God. The point Paul was trying to get acrosswas that Jesus is the visible representation of God to man. That is why Jesus could say, "he that has seen Me has seen the Father" (John 14:9; also 12:45).
Jesus is the bodily representation
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
DAVEH: Golly, PerryWhen asked a question, I try (time allowing) to answer it. Are you surprised that I would give an answer that is congruent with my LDS rooted beliefs? I've not heard of the SM method of teachingBut, is the way I answer the questions a problem for you, Perry. It seems that when I give a brief answer by merely quoting a single passage as evidence in support of my belief, you criticize me for prooftexting. When I quote several passages of support of my beliefs, now you criticize me for teaching LDS doctrine. I'm perplexed, Perry. Just how do you want me to respond to questions posed to me on TT?BTWDid you notice that I asked Kevin a number of questions as I answered his questions, yet instead of directly answering them, he just egged me on (if that is the proper way to frame it) with more questions to draw
out my own beliefsfor which you are finding fault. I repeatI did not come to TT to preach LDS theology, nor to convert other TTers to Mormonism. My interest in being here is based on my curiosity why Protestants (and in the case, most TTers) would think about things like this. To me it is pretty obvious that God has the form of a man, and that he can be seen by man. I derived my thinking on this from my LDS background, and I feel the Bible sufficiently supports my belief. Yet apparently some TTers like Kevin, Judy and presumably you disagree...is that correct? Why? Is not the Bible plain in revealing that men have seen God in the form of a man in Bible times? Do you not see why I am so curious to learn why any Bible believing Christian would not see it as I do? To me it is simply illogical to think God is not in the form of a man. If you don't agree with me, please tell me what you think God looks like Perry??? Do you
really think he does not exist in the form of a man?Now PerryIf you think my thinking on this is strictly a Mormon quirk, I suspect there are other TTers who would agree with what I said above. At one time I remember DavidM suggesting the Bible teaches that God has body parts. (Am I loosely quoting you right on that, DavidM?) And logicallyif God has body parts, what conclusions would that lead to, Perry?So Perrywhat's the problem? If you feel that I am teaching Mormonism, how bad can that be if the Bible teaches the same? And...I stand by my original statement...I did not join TT to preach Mormonism or convert TTers to Mormonism. I'm hear to find out what others believe, and why they believe it. If you do not want to know what I believe, don't ask me what I believeand be sure to delete (without reading) any of my responses to questions that are asked of me by others.Charles Perry Locke
wrote: Dave, you say you are not here to teach LDS doctrine, but that is exactly what you are doing. You may not be aware of the "Socratic Method" of teaching, but you are using it to teach LDS doctrine. Now, as far as I am concerned, it is your right to try to teach whatever you think is the truth using whatever method you feel compelled to use (within the gudelines) on TT. But at least be honest about it when you ar teaching LDS doctrine, rather than saying you do not do it, then doing it anyway. Perry From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Dispersions Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:17:32 -0700 Judy Taylor wrote: On Wed, 18 May 2005 00:09:26 -0700 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes: DAVEH: SureGod does look like a man, Kevin. If Jesus was the Son of man (Jn 3:13), then do you not think his Father in Heaven was a Holy Man? No; God is a Spirit (John

[TruthTalk] Lost Ark









Do you think Indy Jones will find the lost
Ark of the Covenant? 

www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=82226

Re: [TruthTalk] Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS doctrine on TT

To me it is pretty obvious that God has the form of a man
Man fell and lost the image of God, the image is not in the form of a man. it is in being a rational, emotional being, that knows right from wrong.
Matthew Henry Commentary"Man was not made in the likeness of any creature that went before him, but in the likeness of his Creator; yet still between God and man there is an infinite distance. Christ only is the express image of Gods person, as the Son of his Father, having the same nature. It is only some of Gods honour that is put upon man, who is Gods image only as the shadow in the glass"
"Adam was made in the image of God; but, when he was fallen and corrupt, he begat a son in his own image, sinful and defiled, frail, mortal consisting of body and soul, but a sinner like himself, guilty and obnoxious"
"Such remains of Gods image are still even upon fallen man as that he who unjustly kills a man defaces the image of God and does dishonour to him."
Mrk 12:29-30 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
HEART HB 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience
FALLEN NATURE "out of the heart proceed evil thoughts... fornications... blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man." Matt 15:19-20
MIND RM 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
FALLEN NATURE "Set your mind on things above..." Col 3:2
FALLEN MT 16:23 Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
FALLEN "...those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh." Rom 8:5
FALLEN HUMAN NATURE "...they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: whose end is destructionwho set their mind on earthly things." Phil 3:18-19
Emotions "fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace..." Gal 5:22
FALLEN "works of the fleshhatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath..." Gal 5:19-21Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
DAVEH: Golly, PerryWhen asked a question, I try (time allowing) to answer it. Are you surprised that I would give an answer that is congruent with my LDS rooted beliefs? I've not heard of the SM method of teachingBut, is the way I answer the questions a problem for you, Perry. It seems that when I give a brief answer by merely quoting a single passage as evidence in support of my belief, you criticize me for prooftexting. When I quote several passages of support of my beliefs, now you criticize me for teaching LDS doctrine. I'm perplexed, Perry. Just how do you want me to respond to questions posed to me on TT?BTWDid you notice that I asked Kevin a number of questions as I answered his questions, yet instead of directly answering them, he just egged me on (if that is the proper way to frame it) with more questions to draw
out my own beliefsfor which you are finding fault. I repeatI did not come to TT to preach LDS theology, nor to convert other TTers to Mormonism. My interest in being here is based on my curiosity why Protestants (and in the case, most TTers) would think about things like this. To me it is pretty obvious that God has the form of a man, and that he can be seen by man. I derived my thinking on this from my LDS background, and I feel the Bible sufficiently supports my belief. Yet apparently some TTers like Kevin, Judy and presumably you disagree...is that correct? Why? Is not the Bible plain in revealing that men have seen God in the form of a man in Bible times? Do you not see why I am so curious to learn why any Bible believing Christian would not see it as I do? To me it is simply illogical to think God is not in the form of a man. If you don't agree with me, please tell me what you think God looks like Perry??? Do you
really think he does not exist in the form of a man?Now PerryIf you think my thinking on this is strictly a Mormon quirk, I suspect there are other TTers who would agree with what I said above. At one time I remember DavidM suggesting the Bible teaches that God has body parts. (Am I loosely quoting you right on that, DavidM?) And logicallyif God has body parts, what conclusions would that lead to, Perry?So Perrywhat's the problem? If you feel that I am teaching Mormonism, how bad can that be if the Bible teaches the same? And...I stand by my original statement...I did not join TT to preach Mormonism or convert TTers to Mormonism. I'm hear to find out what others believe, and why they believe it. If you do not want to know what I believe, don't ask me what I believeand be sure to delete (without reading) any of my responses to questions that are asked of

[TruthTalk] Why Jews don't believe in Jesus website









Wow, I was surfing the net under Noahide
and found this Jewish website that claims all sorts of awful blasphemies about
Jesus. At the bottom it names the real messiah, a dead
Rabbi they expect to resurrect soon. Really freaky! www.noahide.com/yeshu.htm Izzy

Re: [TruthTalk] Fond Farewells- Salvation


Wrong about what? "Judge not that ye be not judged." (Matt 7:1) 

-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:56:40 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Fond Farewells- Salvation






Wrong again, JD. John 7: 24"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." Izzy

-Original Message-
JD wrote:
 When we are told not to judge, what do
 you think that means?

Re: [TruthTalk] Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS doctrine on TT

2005-05-18 Thread Charles Perry Locke

DaveH wrote: Just how do you want me to respond to questions posed to me on 
TT?

 I want you to respond as you feel is appropriate. I am just saying that if 
you are going to teach mormon doctrine, that you admit that is what you are 
doing instead of hiding it behind some pat phrase about NOT teaching it.

DaveH also said,  My interest in being here is based on my curiosity why 
Protestants (and in the case, most TTers) would think about things like 
this,

You have stated this before, yet when a protestant tells you what he/show 
thinks, you do not learn from ti. Instead, you debate the issue, arguing the 
mormon point of view. That is NOT learning what protestants beleive, it is 
baiting them so you can push the mormon perspective. Call it what it is, 
Dave.

DaveH also wrote: I did not join TT to preach Mormonism or convert TTers to 
Mormonism., and  I repeatI did not come to TT to preach LDS theology, 
nor to convert other TTers to Mormonism. 

  My point exactly. Then why do you teach it? I repeat, I think it is okay 
if you try to teach it, but when you say you did not join to teach it, but 
end up teaching it anyway, I just wonder about that. Please examine what 
your motives are and what you are doing and OWN it.

(Gee, that road sure is familiar!)
Perry
From: Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS doctrine 
on TT
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:32:37 -0700

DAVEH:  Golly, PerryWhen asked a question, I try (time allowing) to 
answer it.  Are you surprised that I would give an answer that is congruent 
with my LDS rooted beliefs?I've not heard of the SM method of 
teachingBut, is the way I answer the questions a problem for you, 
Perry.  It seems that when I give a brief answer by merely quoting a single 
passage as evidence in support of my belief, you criticize me for 
prooftexting.  When I quote several passages of support of my beliefs, now 
you criticize me for teaching LDS doctrine.  I'm perplexed, Perry.

   BTWDid you notice that I asked Kevin a number of questions as I 
answered his questions, yet instead of directly answering them, he just 
egged me on (if that is the proper way to frame it) with more questions to 
draw out my own beliefsfor which you are finding fault.  I repeatI 
did not come to TT to preach LDS theology, nor to convert other TTers to 
Mormonism.  My interest in being here is based on my curiosity why 
Protestants (and in the case, most TTers) would think about things like 
this.  To me it is pretty obvious that God has the form of a man, and that 
he can be seen by man.  I derived my thinking on this from my LDS 
background, and I feel the Bible sufficiently supports my belief.  Yet 
apparently some TTers like Kevin, Judy and presumably you disagree...is 
that correct?  Why?  Is not the Bible plain in revealing that men have seen 
God in the form of a man in Bible times?  Do you not see why I am so 
curious to learn why any Bible believing Christian would not see it as I 
do?  To me it is simply illogical to think God is not in the form of a man. 
 If you don't agree with me, please tell me what you think God looks like 
Perry???  Do you really think he does not exist in the form of a man?

   Now PerryIf you think my thinking on this is strictly a Mormon 
quirk, I suspect there are other TTers who would agree with what I said 
above.  At one time I remember DavidM suggesting the Bible teaches that God 
has body parts.  (Am I loosely quoting you right on that, DavidM?)   And 
logicallyif God has body parts, what conclusions would that lead to, 
Perry?

   So Perrywhat's the problem?  If you feel that I am teaching 
Mormonism, how bad can that be if the Bible teaches the same?  And...I 
stand by my original statement...I did not join TT to preach Mormonism or 
convert TTers to Mormonism.  I'm hear to find out what others believe, and 
why they believe it.   If you do not want to know what I believe, don't ask 
me what I believeand be sure to delete (without reading) any of my 
responses to questions that are asked of me by others.

Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave, you say you are not here to teach LDS doctrine, but that is exactly 
what you are doing. You may not be aware of the Socratic Method of 
teaching, but you are using it to teach LDS doctrine. Now, as far as I am 
concerned, it is your right to try to teach whatever you think is the 
truth using whatever method you feel compelled to use (within the 
gudelines) on TT. But at least be honest about it when you ar teaching LDS 
doctrine, rather than saying you do not do it, then doing it anyway.

Perry
From: Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Dispersions
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:17:32 -0700
Judy Taylor wrote:
  On Wed, 18 May 2005 00:09:26 -0700 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Re: [TruthTalk] Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS doctrine on TT





DAVEH: AhHe was a spirit in the past. I assume you
believe he now is a spirit clothed in a physical bodyis that
correct, Kevin? If he is invisible to you now, what do you suppose he
will look like when you do see him? You do anticipate seeing him,
don't you Kevin???

 BTWI really do want to know if you think you will be able to
see God, Kevinwhat say ye?

Kevin Deegan wrote:

  If you don't agree with me, please tell me what you
think God looks like Perry??? 
  
  God is a spirit
  God is invisible.
  
  
  

-- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

Re: [TruthTalk] David - Psalm 7 and 51