Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
DAVEH: As I see it, the big problem was not the heresy as much as it was the lack of authority. Judy Taylor wrote: From my perspective the Mormon boys are being shown by those of you who adhere to Orthodoxy to a Tee that Joseph Smith was right - His big problem was with the heresy of all the sects. It's not difficult to see as it's even worse today than it was then -he was right on that point - -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
[TruthTalk] Christian Divisiveness
DAVEH: While it does make for an interesting sideshow, to me it is rather disappointing. I had hoped that most non LDS Christians would find more agreement in their beliefs. I'm not sure why I thought that would be the case though, as history has repeatedly demonstrated the lack of cohesion amongst most Christians. From my perspective, most LDS splinter groups seem to be rooted in accepting (or not) those who are in authority, and recognizing them as representatives of the Lord. On the other hand, that seems to have no import to the non-LDS Christian world. Except in the RCC, authority apparently has little relevance, and doctrinal disputations (misinterpretations) seemingly divide Protestantism as efficiently as a Ginsu knife demonstration slices, chops and dices onions. Lance Muir wrote: Forget what I 'say'. Just stand back and watch. I'd say that what this amounts to is a sideshow for our Mormon friends. They are being told by Perry, Kevin, you, David and Linda that that which and, in Whom, they believe is not Biblical. You folks are demonstrating that A It can't be known (even after having believed for decades) B That it doesn't reall matter all that much EXCEPT FOR MORMONS, OF COURSE! -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Lance, I don't know if you woke up on the wrong side of the bed or what, but the bombardment of comments like the following are bound to derail the conversation. Can you tone down the personal assault and stick to the issues? Lance wrote: Doncha just love the built-in patronizing attitutude of some... Really, David! ... You're not always smart. Lance wrote: Kevin - Have you ever wondered why? Pretty much nobody ever responds to you? Lance wrote: Oh well, let's watch a movie instead. At least ya know what you're going to get. Lance wrote: Where on earth did THAT idea come from? Lower your intake of sasperella (it was OK for Hoppy but not for you, apparently) Lance wrote: Wow! What a load ofwell...speculation ... Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Judy wrote: So Mr. Answer Man - I know you have it all sewed up with your incarnational doctrine and all, noone has to sweat it - not anyone, least of all you. You can spend all of your time in worldliness and carnality and when you hear the trumpet and it's time of the Marriage Supper just barge in holding on to your doctrine. Matters not whether or not you are wearing the right garment. Just tell them TFT said See what I mean, Lance? You pushed Judy over the edge. Judy, you crossed over the line with this one. Try to stay away from the personal and stick with the issues and away from addressing Lance personally. Thanks. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Judy wrote: Was Jesus born with a regular fleshly human nature as per Galatians 5:19 Gal. 5:19ff describes the kind of behavior that would have been manifested in Jesus if he had followed his flesh. The behavior listed there does not describe Jesus because he followed the Spirit and not the flesh. The point is that Jesus CONQUERED all the temptations listed here. Jesus had victory over them. If his flesh was not like our flesh, he would not have had victory over these temptations. Note that even after being born again and receiving the Spirit of Christ, we have all these things abiding in our flesh. Why aren't they alive? Why aren't we walking in adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strife, seditions, heresies, envy, murder, drunkenness, and partying on weekends? The reason is because we reckon our flesh dead by the power of the Spirit's operation in our life. The existence of all this within our flesh does not condemn us and prevent us from being holy. Neither did it make Jesus Christ unholy. Rather, the existence of this within his body illustrated his great power over sin. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Judy wrote: Problem is that the scriptures he used were not pertaining to the weakness of Jesus flesh; the ONLY scriptures on this subject are the ones using the word likeness - the others speak to different areas or our pilgrimage - which is different from His even though he did leave us an example to follow and power from on high to enable us. Judy, the Scriptures I use most definitely DO pertain to the weakness of Jesus flesh. As you point out, the strongest one mentions SINFUL flesh (Rom. 8:3). You are hung up on the word likeness, apparently interpreting it to mean counterfeit or something like that. Well, Jesus did not have a counterfeit flesh, a flesh that looked like human flesh but really was not. The other passages I have mentioned focus very much on how Christ humbled himself by becoming man. It speaks of his suffering, or his experiencing death, etc., all things that have to do with flesh that is corruptible. Death is the strongest evidence that his flesh was the same. The Scriptures teach us that the sting of death is sin. Lord willing, I will share more later. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Humanity of Jesus
Judy wrote: Yes he had a flesh and blood body with the same limitations as the ones we have only he was not just like us David. The difference is one of heart/holiness and God gave the Spirit without measure to Him (John 3:34) We have nothing like that going on... and the Spirit quickens mortal bodies. I think we face here some differences in what our words mean. Let me say first that all the works of the flesh are not just limited to the flesh when a man yields to them. Obeying the flesh defiles the soul and defiles the spirit. Therefore, things like envy, murder, etc. can be works not just of the flesh, but of our soul and heart when we have given ourselves over to following the flesh. This is how I reconcile verses like Gal. 5:19 and James 1:14 which attribute these things to the flesh, with verses like Mat. 15:19 and 2 Cor. 7:1 which show evil to be something deeper within man. It seems to me that in your terminology, you use the word flesh not to refer to the physical body and behavior that might emanate from it, but as a metaphor to refer to all evil behavior regardless of its source. Therefore, when I say that Jesus had a flesh like ours, you think that I am saying that the sinfulness that characterizes men was a characteristic of Jesus. That is not what I am saying. If you have tasted holiness and the deliverance from the power of sin within us, then you should have a good sense of the victory over the flesh that Jesus experienced. I believe that Jesus lived this victory all his life (unlike us) because he was unique, he was the Son of God, his spirit was strong from the beginning over the flesh, his mind was upon God from the very beginning, he was empowered with the Spirit without measure. From my perspective, all of this gave him power over whatever desires of his flesh that would be contrary to God. Therefore, he became perfect through suffering, just like us. He experienced intense temptation, the greatest when he went to the cross and sweat drops of blood as his flesh cried out against the course he had taken but his spirit and soul kept the course, contrary to the desires of his flesh. Something else about terminology. I suspect that what you might call flesh, I would call soul. So when you hear me use the word flesh, your mind is thinking about his soul, and you cannot imagine Jesus with a wicked soul. I certainly agree that Jesus did not have a wicked soul. Jesus was righteous and pure in every way. Much of my perspective from my terms comes from recognizing that when Paul said flesh he meant flesh, as in physical body. History helps me accept this because I understand the Greek mindset of those Paul wrote his letters to, the Platonic, mindset which drew a sharp dichotomy between the material and the spiritual, with the material world being that which is subject to corruption and change and evil, but the spiritual world that which is perfect and pure and the archetype for the material world. Biology helps me accept this because it is completely materialistic and almost all biologists deny any existence of soul and spirit. Biologists explain all behavior with only the perspective of the physical, namely, the flesh and genetics. I realize that you are likely to think that my studies and educational background put me at a disadvantage, perhaps polluting the way I read the Bible, but I sincerely tell you that I think just the opposite in this particular case. I think it has helped me tremendously to understand the issues Paul was raising with words like flesh, carnal, spirit, mind, etc. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
Lance wrote: Let me say something to everyone on TT who employs the letters RCC as an epithet; THIS WAS THE BIRTH OF CHRIST'S CHURCH!! If y'all got a problem with that then, take it up with Him. Lance, surely you know that this is not true what you just said. This is one of the biggest lies that the RCC has ever perpetrated on mankind. The RCC did not have independent existence until 1054 when it excommunicated Michael Cerularius, the Bishop of Constantinople, over his refusal to acknowledge the Bishop of Rome as Supreme Pope among other things. Even if you don't accept this date as the date of Roman Catholicism's beginning, you surely cannot argue for its existence before 313 A.D. when Constantine issued the Edict of Milan. Rome was not the earliest church. Jerusalem was. The church in Jerusalem was the birth of Christ's first church, and many other churches were born after that, in Antioch, in Ephesus, in Corinth, etc. Read Revelation 1 and you will find seven churches, not ONE HOLY ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, and these seven were only represented of the many churches of Christ that existed throughout the earth. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
In my posted comment below, I say "God and man." He is the Son of God and, thus, God Himself (John 5:18). He is the Son of Man, thus, man(kind) himself. As Son of God, He is the fullness of the very nature of God, the visible presentation of the invisibleGod. As Son of Man,He is the prefect(ed) representative of man !! As a result, in Him, mankind, full of faith,escapes judgment (John 5:24 and Col 1:22, where the word translated "blameless" means "unaccused" or he who "cannot be called into account" - Thayer).PTL !! JD-Original Message-From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:41:11 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 DAVEH: And..the Son of man as well. Do other TTers not find that immensely important?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't be fooled. The scriptures plainly teach that Jesus Christ was God and man.-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
Dang !!-Original Message-From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:45:53 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 John, could Freud (or Kevin) have been right? You wrote:"it is not in my bile of choice (NASV) ..." :-)JD--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
JD wrote: Who says this is not an esstential? You? DM? And what are these essentials/ None of you fundies ever get around to answering that question. Do you all think this goes unnoticed? Well, I'm not a fundy, but I will try to answer this for you. First, let me say that contrary to your false characterization of me, I do not believe that there is any list of doctrines that must be adhered to in order to be saved. God is not sitting at this throne with a check list of ideas that people must accept in order to enter. Rather, our doctrines determine who we are and how we live out our lives. At least this is true for those who are honest. Dishonest people are another matter entirely. So how do we determine essential doctrines? Well, that is about as easy as understanding the essential nutrients needed for a body to live. Take away water. Guess what. Kid dies. Take away all food. Guess what. Kid dies. Withhold all vitamin D. Guess what. Kid gets sick. Limit protein. Guess what. Kid becomes scrawny. Now consider alternatives. One kid drinks orange juice everyday. Another kid hates orange juice and never drinks it. Can they both grow up well? Yes. One kid drinks milk every day, another hates milk. Same conclusion. One kid eats meat everyday, but another rarely eats meat. They both can grow up fine. The point is that although there are essentials, there are various ways of getting those essentials. We best determine whether those essentials are being received by the effect on the person's growth. For a person to truly walk in love, he must put faith in Jesus Christ. Lot's of people claim to have faith in Jesus Christ, but do they really? The test is whether they walk in love and obey his commandments. I have seen people who don't understand Romans 7 one bit, or know anything about Trinity or sabellianism or flesh or spirit, but they love God with all their heart and walk in his commandments. Guess what. They have the essentials. I have seen other who deny Jesus Christ and do not keep his commandments. Guess what. They do not have the essentials. I don't know if my comments will help you see any better, but I tried. Sometimes we don't answer your questions because we expect we won't get through and will instead just get attacked for trying to answer. I hope such does not happen this time. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Judy wrote: He was on earth as the Son of God. ... God is omnipotent and omnipresent, transcendent etc. When he came in a flesh body Jesus was none of these, in fact He plainly said The Father is greater than I. JD wrote: Don't be fooled. The scriptures plainly teach that Jesus Christ was God and man. Do either of you think that being a Son of God is different than being God? Would not being a Son of God make him God just as being a Son of Man makes him man? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
JD wrote: Why do we not find people in the NT scriptures inviting the Lord into their lives? Izzy wrote: We see it all the time. Did they leave that part out of your translation also? I think John's point is that in the Bible, people did not invite the Lord into their lives through saying the sinner's prayer. Rather, they were led into the waters of baptism rather than into saying a prayer. Do you recognize this Izzy? The sinner's prayer is not a Biblical way of leading people to faith in Christ and the experience of being born again. If anyone accepts this method as valid, it is not because they learned it directly from the Bible. Do you agree? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
The reason we are not comdemned has nothing, ultimately, to do with our effort. Rather, in Christ we escape judgment altogether (John 3:18; 5:24). Because of the fact of reconciliation, we are presented as ones who cannot (read: CANNOT) be called into account - cf. Col 1:22 and the word "blameless"). JD-Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:57:30 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Judy wrote: Was Jesus born with a regular fleshly human nature as per Galatians 5:19 Gal. 5:19ff describes the kind of behavior that would have been manifested in Jesus if he had followed his flesh. The behavior listed there does not describe Jesus because he followed the Spirit and not the flesh. The point is that Jesus CONQUERED all the temptations listed here. Jesus had victory over them. If his flesh was not like our flesh, he would not have had victory over these temptations. Note that even after being born again and receiving the Spirit of Christ, we have all these things abiding in our flesh. Why aren't they alive? Why aren't we walking in adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strife, seditions, heresies, envy, murder, drunkenness, and partying on weekends? The reason is because we reckon our flesh dead by the power of the Spirit's operation in our life. The existence of all this within our flesh does not condemn us and prevent us from being holy. Neither did it make Jesus Christ unholy. Rather, the existence of this within his body illustrated his great power over sin. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
David Miller wrote: Note that even after being born again and receiving the Spirit of Christ, we have all these things abiding in our flesh. Why aren't they alive? Why aren't we walking in adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strife, seditions, heresies, envy, murder, drunkenness, and partying on weekends? Mostly because we now have the mind of Christ. Terry -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my posted comment below, I say "God and man." He is the Son of God and, thus, God Himself (John 5:18). He is the Son of Man, thus, man(kind) himself. As Son of God, He is the fullness of the very nature of God, the visible presentation of the invisibleGod. As Son of Man,He is the prefect(ed) representative of man !! As a result, in Him, mankind, full of faith,escapes judgment (John 5:24 and Col 1:22, where the word translated "blameless" means "unaccused" or he who "cannot be called into account" - Thayer).PTL !! JD === You have said well. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Divisiveness
DaveH wrote: Except in the RCC, authority apparently has little relevance, and doctrinal disputations (misinterpretations) seemingly divide Protestantism as efficiently as a Ginsu knife demonstration slices, chops and dices onions. Well, Dave, with 85% of Americans claiming to be Christian, and Jesus saying that narrow and straight is the way that leads to eternal life and few there be that find it, there really does need to be some division among Christians. Even Jesus said: Matthew 10:34-36 (34) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. (35) For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. (36) And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
You start off rather well:I do not believe that there is any list of doctrines that must be adhered to in order to be saved. And then (almost immediately) , you write: So how do we determine essential doctrines? Well ... Whatever. JD -Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:06:19 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter' JD wrote: Who says this is not an esstential? You? DM? And what are these "essentials/" None of you fundies ever get around to answering that question. Do you all think this goes unnoticed? Well, I'm not a fundy, but I will try to answer this for you. First, let me say that contrary to your false characterization of me, I do not believe that there is any list of doctrines that must be adhered to in order to be saved. God is not sitting at this throne with a check list of ideas that people must accept in order to enter. Rather, our doctrines determine who we are and how we live out our lives. At least this is true for those who are honest. Dishonest people are another matter entirely. So how do we determine essential doctrines? Well, that is about as easy as understanding the essential nutrients needed for a body to live. Take away water. Guess what. Kid dies. Take away all food. Guess what. Kid dies. Withhold all vitamin D. Guess what. Kid gets sick. Limit protein. Guess what. Kid becomes scrawny. Now consider alternatives. One kid drinks orange juice everyday. Another kid hates orange juice and never drinks it. Can they both grow up well? Yes. One kid drinks milk every day, another hates milk. Same conclusion. One kid eats meat everyday, but another rarely eats meat. They both can grow up fine. The point is that although there are essentials, there are various ways of getting those essentials. We best determine whether those essentials are being received by the effect on the person's growth. For a person to truly walk in love, he must put faith in Jesus Christ. Lot's of people claim to have faith in Jesus Christ, but do they really? The test is whether they walk in love and obey his commandments. I have seen people who don't understand Romans 7 one bit, or know anything about Trinity or sabellianism or flesh or spirit, but they love God with all their heart and walk in his commandments. Guess what. They have the essentials. I have seen other who deny Jesus Christ and do not keep his commandments. Guess what. They do not have the essentials. I don't know if my comments will help you see any better, but I tried. Sometimes we don't answer your questions because we expect we won't get through and will instead just get attacked for trying to answer. I hope such does not happen this time. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Absolutely? Your point? Jd-Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:11:14 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Judy wrote: He was on earth as the Son of God. ... God is omnipotent and omnipresent, transcendent etc. When he came in a flesh body Jesus was none of these, in fact He plainly said "The Father is greater than I". JD wrote: Don't be fooled. The scriptures plainly teach that Jesus Christ was God and man. Do either of you think that being a Son of God is different than being God? Would not being a Son of God make him God just as being a Son of Man makes him man? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
Why would you write this: I think John's point is that in the Bible, people did not invite the Lord into their lives through saying "the sinner's prayer." Rather, they were led into the waters of baptism rather than into saying a prayer. ? JD -Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:17:47 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 JD wrote: Why do we not find people in the NT scriptures "inviting the Lord into their lives?" Izzy wrote: We see it all the time. Did they leave that part out of your translation also? I think John's point is that in the Bible, people did not invite the Lord into their lives through saying "the sinner's prayer." Rather, they were led into the waters of baptism rather than into saying a prayer. Do you recognize this Izzy? The sinner's prayer is not a Biblical way of leading people to faith in Christ and the experience of being born again. If anyone accepts this method as valid, it is not because they learned it directly from the Bible. Do you agree? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
John, do you see a big difference in the terms "Born again" and "New creature in Christ"? My own thinking is that it would be hard to be a NEW creature without being born again. Terry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My argument was quite biblical. When you want to honestly discuss the issue, let me know. This post is not that effort. JD -Original Message- From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:41:47 -0400 Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is not that we do not or cannot understand. Rather, it is that we do understand but reject the message. jt: This is interesting JD - what's wrong with the message? It's Bible. You must be Born Again. Raised from spiritual death to spiritual life IOW by hearing His Voice and not hardening your heart. No man comes to Christ except the Father draw him -- jt: Right! God draws men by way of the "foolishness of preaching" They hear God's Word and the Spirit works in their hard old heart after telling the spirit clouding their mind to "shut up" God being involved in the life of all who are dealing with the Christ issue. jt: So what is the Christ issue? Aside from His Word that is? Philip 2:13 ".. for it is God at work in you ..." is a statement of fact for us all -- saved and unsaved. jt: Nonsense. The unsaved have the devil working in them (see Ephesians 2:1) If we we are "lost," we are so without excuse! jt: Yes because it is God's will that all come to the knowledge of truth and He will make a way for them to hear. God in Christ has broken down all the barriers ( read: reconciled all things unto Himself) jt: The above is objective truth. and has a presence within each of us (different from a filling of the Spirit). jt: The above is not truth at all it is presumption - how is God present in those who reject Him? The lost reject this reconciliation and God's "draw" within. jt: The lost have been estranged from the womb and they reject His voice just like Israel did in the wilderness - they harden their hearts and stiffen their necks. We are probably in agreement -- but with different words jt: I don't think so JD - this is a "great gulf" - it's more than just semantics. We have two different gospels here.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
David Miller wrote: Note that even after being born again and receiving the Spirit of Christ, we have all these things abiding in our flesh. Why aren't they alive? Why aren't we walking in adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strife, seditions, heresies, envy, murder, drunkenness, and partying on weekends? Terry wrote: Mostly because we now have the mind of Christ. Amen! Terry, do you recognize that while you are not living in these things now, that they lie still within your physical body dormant and would awaken should you yield to them? For example, if you were to begin to lust after women with your eyes, would your body not respond and want more? Except for the spirit of Christ and mind of Christ in you, would such not lead you toward adultery if you were to give yourself over to it? This is what I mean by referring to the sin nature that exists within our flesh. Do you think that Jesus had this same kind of male body, that would be attracted toward females in ways that would not glorify his Father were he to yield solely to the desires of his body? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
sin has nothing to do with God--there is nothing Godmust defeat, over which to exercise power to control sin is attempting to manipulate God--God has yet to be manipulated God's power is sacred, employedpurely to elevate in his own style those whocommit tothe foregoing, rather than to make the world/ly moral whileone loves God, he is learning, simply, to have nothing to do with sin; however, as we see, for mankind this is impossible On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:02:06 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As Son of God, He is the fullness of the very nature of God, the visible presentation of the invisibleGod.
Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
I think we may be quibbling over nothing. We are told to seek the Lord, so what do we do when we find Him? Tell Him to stay out of our life? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do a little comparative reading on verse v. 37 -- it is not in my bile of choice (NASV) But even with its inclusion -- " but I see nothing there that conflicts with what I said.Do you? JD -Original Message- From: Terry Clifton wabbits1234@earthlink.net To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:02:42 -0500 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why do we not find people in the NT scriptures "inviting the Lord into their lives?" = Check out the Etheopean eunuch. See if he doesn't fit that picture.
Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
I believe that Philip 2:12-13 presents us with the teaching that God is the reason forour will to do the right thing and our ability to accomplish such -- that this applies to all of mankind since the Reconciliation (Col 1:17-24). When I read that "No man comes to me except the Father draws him," I think of this Philip passage. And in John 3:21, I see this thinking confirmed. In that passage, we practice the truth and (then) come to the Light. Christ manifests or reveals thatthis practice of truth was actually accomplish "in God." Before coming to Christ, I have a relationship of sorts with God. This is why repentance is so important. Before repentance, God is a work in me but I am not his partner -- not a good thing. After repentance, I have fellowshipor "joint participation" with God (Philip 2:1). Repentance is a change of mind - getting things right in our minds -- a turning around. When I "receive the Spirit," I am accepting a gifted presence already a part of who I am as a result of reconciliation. In Christ, the works of God (doneeven before I came into light) are manifested to be the works of God, Himself (again--John3:21). Read for yourself and see how this passage (John 3:21) is related to John 3:3 and the other passages I have mentioned. . JD -Original Message-From: Terry Clifton wabbits1234@earthlink.netTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:39:37 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 John, do you see a big difference in the terms "Born again" and "New creature in Christ"? My own thinking is that it would be hard to be a NEW creature without being born again.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My argument was quite biblical. When you want to honestly discuss the issue, let me know. This post is not that effort. JD -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: truthtalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:41:47 -0400Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]It is not that we do not or cannot understand. Rather, it is that we do understand but reject the message. jt: This is interesting JD - what's wrong with the message? It's Bible. You must be Born Again. Raised from spiritual death to spiritual life IOW by hearing His Voice and not hardening your heart. No man comes to Christ except the Father draw him -- jt: Right! God draws men by way of the "foolishness of preaching" They hear God's Word and the Spirit works in their hard old heart after telling the spirit clouding their mind to "shut up" God being involved in the life of all who are dealing with the Christ issue. jt: So what is the Christ issue? Aside from His Word that is? Philip 2:13 ".. for it is God at work in you ..." is a statement of fact for us all -- saved and unsaved. jt: Nonsense. The unsaved have the devil working in them (see Ephesians 2:1) If we we are "lost," we are so without excuse! jt: Yes because it is God's will that all come to the knowledge of truth and He will make a way for them to hear. God in Christ has broken down all the barriers ( read: reconciled all things unto Himself) jt: The above is objective truth. and has a presence within each of us (different from a filling of the Spirit). jt: The above is not truth at all it is presumption - how is God present in those who reject Him? The lost reject this reconciliation and God's "draw" within. jt: The lost have been estranged from the womb and they reject His voice just like Israel did in the wilderness - they harden their hearts and stiffen their necks. We are probably in agreement -- but with different words jt: I don't think so JD - this is a "great gulf" - it's more than just semantics. We have two different gospels here.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
I agree David - I did and Perry has brought that to my attention; I know better and have repented. After I sent that lightning zapped our modem during a thunder storm so I've had time to recover. This laptop is uncomfortable - we are going out this a.m. to find another modem. I hear you. judyt On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:39:51 -0400 David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judy wrote: So Mr. Answer Man - I know you have it all sewed up with your incarnational doctrine and all, noone has to sweat it - not anyone, least of all you. You can spend all of your time in worldliness and carnality and when you hear the trumpet and it's time of the Marriage Supper just barge in holding on to your doctrine. Matters not whether or not you are wearing the right garment. Just tell them TFT said See what I mean, Lance? You pushed Judy over the edge. Judy, you crossed over the line with this one. Try to stay away from the personal and stick with the issues and away from addressing Lance personally. Thanks. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
Sorry, I hit the wrong button -- wasn'tfinished. Understanding what "born again is,"(previous post)I agree with your thinkiing entirely... being a "new creature" has everything to do with our fellowship or joint participation in the Spirit (Phil 2:1). JD-Original Message-From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:39:37 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 John, do you see a big difference in the terms "Born again" and "New creature in Christ"? My own thinking is that it would be hard to be a NEW creature without being born again.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My argument was quite biblical. When you want to honestly discuss the issue, let me know. This post is not that effort. JD -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: truthtalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:41:47 -0400Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]It is not that we do not or cannot understand. Rather, it is that we do understand but reject the message. jt: This is interesting JD - what's wrong with the message? It's Bible. You must be Born Again. Raised from spiritual death to spiritual life IOW by hearing His Voice and not hardening your heart. No man comes to Christ except the Father draw him -- jt: Right! God draws men by way of the "foolishness of preaching" They hear God's Word and the Spirit works in their hard old heart after telling the spirit clouding their mind to "shut up" God being involved in the life of all who are dealing with the Christ issue. jt: So what is the Christ issue? Aside from His Word that is? Philip 2:13 ".. for it is God at work in you ..." is a statement of fact for us all -- saved and unsaved. jt: Nonsense. The unsaved have the devil working in them (see Ephesians 2:1) If we we are "lost," we are so without excuse! jt: Yes because it is God's will that all come to the knowledge of truth and He will make a way for them to hear. God in Christ has broken down all the barriers ( read: reconciled all things unto Himself) jt: The above is objective truth. and has a presence within each of us (different from a filling of the Spirit). jt: The above is not truth at all it is presumption - how is God present in those who reject Him? The lost reject this reconciliation and God's "draw" within. jt: The lost have been estranged from the womb and they reject His voice just like Israel did in the wilderness - they harden their hearts and stiffen their necks. We are probably in agreement -- but with different words jt: I don't think so JD - this is a "great gulf" - it's more than just semantics. We have two different gospels here.
Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:15:53 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I believe that Philip 2:12-13 presents us with the teaching that God is the reason forour will to do the right thing and our ability to accomplish such -- that this applies to all of mankind since the Reconciliation (Col 1:17-24). When I read that "No man comes to me except the Father draws him," I think of this Philip passage. And in John 3:21, I see this thinking confirmed. In that passage, we practice the truth and (then) come to the Light. Christ manifests or reveals thatthis practice of truth was actually accomplish "in God." Before coming to Christ, I have a relationship of sorts with God. This is why repentance is so important. Before repentance, God is a work in me but I am not his partner -- not a good thing. After repentance, I have fellowshipor "joint participation" with God (Philip 2:1). Judy: JD you need to take ALL scripture into consideration. John 3:36 teaches that the wrath of God CONTINUES to abide on those who do not believe the Son. I don't get the idea that God is working in them when His wrath CONTINUES to abide on them. What would make you believe this?? Repentance is a change of mind - getting things right in our minds -- a turning around. When I "receive the Spirit," I am accepting a gifted presence already a part of who I am as a result of reconciliation. In Christ, the works of God (doneeven before I came into light) are manifested to be the works of God, Himself (again--John3:21). Read for yourself and see how this passage (John 3:21) is related to John 3:3 and the other passages I have mentioned.JD Judy: John you are leaving out great blocks of truth; when I read what you write I get the idea that some spirit is doing all the work from inside ppl. However scripture teaches that God only gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Jesus (the "Word") First ppl must receive the Word and obey which begins with repentance because those who receive His testimony certify that God is true. Look at the example we have in the first Church: Acts 6:7 "The Word of God increased" Acts 12:24 "The Word of God grew and multiplied" Acts 19:20 "Mightily grew the Word of God and prevailed" Why not pray for the Father to reveal God the Word to you? This is who He was before the "incarnation" and this is who He is in the book of Acts. God has promised that His Word will not return void Isaiah 55:11. Without the truth of His Word - all spiritual activity is suspect. judyt -Original Message-From: Terry Clifton wabbits1234@earthlink.netTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:39:37 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 John, do you see a big difference in the terms "Born again" and "New creature in Christ"? My own thinking is that it would be hard to be a NEW creature without being born again.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My argument was quite biblical. When you want to honestly discuss the issue, let me know. This post is not that effort. JD -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: truthtalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:41:47 -0400Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]It is not that we do not or cannot understand. Rather, it is that we do understand but reject the message. jt: This is interesting JD - what's wrong with the message? It's Bible. You must be Born Again. Raised from spiritual death to spiritual life IOW by hearing His Voice and not hardening your heart. No man comes to Christ except the Father draw him -- jt: Right! God draws men by way of the "foolishness of preaching" They hear God's Word and the Spirit works in their hard old heart after telling the spirit clouding their mind to "shut up" God being involved in the life of all who are dealing with the Christ issue. jt: So what is the Christ issue? Aside from His Word that is? Philip 2:13 ".. for it is God at work in you ..." is a statement of fact for us all -- saved and unsaved. jt: Nonsense. The unsaved have the devil working in them (see Ephesians 2:1) If we we are "lost," we are so without excuse! jt: Yes because it is God's will that all come to the knowledge of truth and He will make a way for them to hear. God in Christ has broken down all the barriers ( read: reconciled all things unto Himself) jt: The above is objective truth. and has a presence within each of us (different from a filling of the Spirit). jt: The above is not truth at all it is presumption - how is God present in those who
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
How is this IMPOSSIBLE since Jesus victory over the presence, power, and practice of sin on our behalf? Becoming part of this victory means agreeing with God regarding our hopeless and helpless condition so that we die to all that and are born again receiving a new heart and a different spirit (Jer 31) because IF YOU LIVE AFTER THE FLESH YOU SHALL DIE (Romans 8:13,14) It's your choice. On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:37:58 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: sin has nothing to do with God--there is nothing Godmust defeat, over which to exercise power to control sin is attempting to manipulate God--God has yet to be manipulated God's power is sacred, employedpurely to elevate in his own style those whocommit tothe foregoing, rather than to make the world/ly moral whileone loves God, he is learning, simply, to have nothing to do with sin; however, as we see, for mankind this is impossible On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:02:06 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As Son of God, He is the fullness of the very nature of God, the visible presentation of the invisibleGod.
Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
They had to receive the Word of God before being baptized - see the example of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. But then some were baptized without a heart change - see Simon the magician who even after being baptized wanted to pay money to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Today if someone rebuked a new believer as Peter did there they would be run out of church; today they would just love them and put them in the choir. judyt On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:37:31 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Why would you write this: I think John's point is that in the Bible, people did not invite the Lord into their lives through saying "the sinner's prayer." Rather, they were led into the waters of baptism rather than into saying a prayer. ? JD -Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:17:47 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 JD wrote: Why do we not find people in the NT scriptures "inviting the Lord into their lives?" Izzy wrote: We see it all the time. Did they leave that part out of your translation also? I think John's point is that in the Bible, people did not invite the Lord into their lives through saying "the sinner's prayer." Rather, they were led into the waters of baptism rather than into saying a prayer. Do you recognize this Izzy? The sinner's prayer is not a Biblical way of leading people to faith in Christ and the experience of being born again. If anyone accepts this method as valid, it is not because they learned it directly from the Bible. Do you agree? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Judyt: My point is that he was not fully God in the flesh and neither was he fully man because he is constantly referred to as a "holy child" He was holy from birth Mankind is not and this is why we so desperately need him and why he diedfor us He is what He is and we need to be open to receive that revelation from the Lord rather than die for some creed that misrepresents Him for fear of heresy. The important thing is that we be conformed to His image before he returns for us. On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:34:46 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Absolutely? Your point? Jd-Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:11:14 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Judy wrote: He was on earth as the Son of God. ... God is omnipotent and omnipresent, transcendent etc. When he came in a flesh body Jesus was none of these, in fact He plainly said "The Father is greater than I". JD wrote: Don't be fooled. The scriptures plainly teach that Jesus Christ was God and man. Do either of you think that being a Son of God is different than being God? Would not being a Son of God make him God just as being a Son of Man makes him man? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Judyt: Much as I hate to disagree with you and Terry I've got to on this one because it promotes the "incarnational" thing. Colossians 1:22 is the reality of the "risen Christ" John. It is not how he walked amongst Israel and reading scripture in balance and context would demonstrate this. Why would the "fullness of the Godhead bodily" say "My Father is greater than I?" Also IMO you carry this "representative" thing too far on the other end. We had no choice but to be born into the first Adam. We do have a choice as to whether or not we embrace the second and if we do not receive the Word of Godembrace reality by agreeing withHis assessment and obey Him - we will continue on in our wretchedness and His Kingdom will be alien to and unavailable to us because God's wrath continues to abide on us (John 3:36) We don't talk about what we have been saved from. Why not? On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:27:39 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my posted comment below, I say "God and man." He is the Son of God and, thus, God Himself (John 5:18). He is the Son of Man, thus, man(kind) himself. As Son of God, He is the fullness of the very nature of God, the visible presentation of the invisibleGod. As Son of Man,He is the prefect(ed) representative of man !! As a result, in Him, mankind, full of faith,escapes judgment (John 5:24 and Col 1:22, where the word translated "blameless" means "unaccused" or he who "cannot be called into account" - Thayer).PTL !! JD===You have said well.Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
Dave, Jesus is the authority and he did not set up a hierarchal flesh kingdom to stand in for Him His kingdom is organic rather than organizational. Leadership leads by example rather than as CEO The least is as important as the greatest and all are to submit one to another in the fear of God. This is the example we find in the NT. You will note that John recognized the false by the way they behaved and warned the Church not to receive them. judyt On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:59:59 -0700 Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DAVEH: As I see it, the big problem was not the heresy as much as it was the lack of authority.Judy Taylor wrote: From my perspective the Mormon boys are being shown by those of you who adhere to Orthodoxy to a Tee that Joseph Smith was right - His big problem was with the heresy of all the sects. It's not difficult to see as it's even worse today than it was then -he was right on that point - -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
i believe it On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:38:18 -0400 Judith H Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..YOU SHALL DIE
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
judyt: Not entirely true JD. Yes he won the victory for us but it does take effort to walk in that victory This is what it means to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" and "continuing in hope" or not letting go. We must overcome the world, flesh, and devil because of our faith in His victory. This takes effort. Studying to show oneself approved and rightly dividing the Word of Truth takes effort. He can not present us holy and blameles without our cooperation. It does not work by magic. jt On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:19:31 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The reason we are not comdemned has nothing, ultimately, to do with our effort. Rather, in Christ we escape judgment altogether (John 3:18; 5:24). Because of the fact of reconciliation, we are presented as ones who cannot (read: CANNOT) be called into account - cf. Col 1:22 and the word "blameless"). JD-Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:57:30 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Judy wrote: Was Jesus born with a regular fleshly human nature as per Galatians 5:19 Gal. 5:19ff describes the kind of behavior that would have been manifested in Jesus if he had followed his flesh. The behavior listed there does not describe Jesus because he followed the Spirit and not the flesh. The point is that Jesus CONQUERED all the temptations listed here. Jesus had victory over them. If his flesh was not like our flesh, he would not have had victory over these temptations. Note that even after being born again and receiving the Spirit of Christ, we have all these things abiding in our flesh. Why aren't they alive? Why aren't we walking in adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strife, seditions, heresies, envy, murder, drunkenness, and partying on weekends? The reason is because we reckon our flesh dead by the power of the Spirit's operation in our life. The existence of all this within our flesh does not condemn us and prevent us from being holy. Neither did it make Jesus Christ unholy. Rather, the existence of this within his body illustrated his great power over sin. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Amen, it is our choice to walk after the Spirit every day that gives us power to overcome in these areas because we sure could if we wanted to. Some ppl are overcome even after coming to Christ and these need deliverance and counsel many times. Last night I was at a Church dinner and some of the ladies who teach Jr. High were speaking of an epidemic of girls cutting themselves These are girls in Christian families and they spoke of it as a method of control. in their lives of seeming chaos. How terribly tragic. My people perish for lack of knowledge judyt On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:23:14 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: David Miller wrote: Note that even after being born again and receiving the Spirit of Christ, we have all these things abiding in our flesh. Why aren't they alive? Why aren't we walking in adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strife, seditions, heresies, envy, murder, drunkenness, and partying on weekends? Mostly because we now have the mind of Christ. Terry -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
Judy wrote: They had to receive the Word of God before being baptized - see the example of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. This is true, but the Ethiopian you mention did not say the sinner's prayer. He asked to be baptized. This passage tells me several things: 1) Philip did not tell him to bow his head and ask Jesus to come into his heart; otherwise, he would not have said, if thou believest with all thine heart. 2) the point of his public confession of Christ was water baptism rather than an altar call where he says the sinner's prayer. Reading earlier in the chapter, Acts 8:12 says that when they believed Philip, they were baptized. In modern times, it does not often work that way in Protestant churches. What happens is that when the believe, they are led in a prayer. Close your eyes and repeat after me... Baptism is usually not even mentioned, so that new converts often go years attending church without being baptized. In my opinion, this is an over-reaction to Roman Catholicism's emphasis on the saving aspect of baptism through the proper authority in order to be saved. The point is not that the sinner's prayer is wrong or bad. The point is that leading someone to salvation through saying the sinner's prayer is not a Biblical tradition. You and Izzy claim to only believe what you read in the Scriptures. If you have ever led someone to salvation by having them say a prayer, you did not get this tradition from the Scriptures. The closest passage I know of would be the tax collector of Luke 18:13-14, but nobody there led this man in a prayer. It came from his heart. The Biblical tradition of how to lead someone into faith in Christ is to bring them to the waters of baptism if they believe with all their heart. I'm talking about the Biblical model for how a believer would lead another believer into becoming a disciple of Christ. Do you agree? Judy wrote: But then some were baptized without a heart change - see Simon the magician who even after being baptized wanted to pay money to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Today if someone rebuked a new believer as Peter did there they would be run out of church; today they would just love them and put them in the choir. So very true and so very sad. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Humanity of Jesus
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy wrote: Yes he had a flesh and blood body with the same limitations as the ones we have only he was not just like us David. The difference is one of heart/holiness and God gave the Spirit without measure to Him (John 3:34) We have nothing like that going on... and the Spirit quickens mortal bodies. I think we face here some differences in what our words mean. Let me say first that all the works of the flesh are not just limited to the flesh when a man yields to them. Obeying the flesh defiles the soul and defiles the spirit. Therefore, things like envy, murder, etc. can be works not just of the flesh, but of our soul and heart when we have given ourselves over to following the flesh. This is how I reconcile verses like Gal. 5:19 and James 1:14 which attribute these things to the flesh, with verses like Mat. 15:19 and 2 Cor. 7:1 which show evil to be something deeper within man. judyt: Yes I agree and this is why all three areas must be cleansed of filthiness, sanctification extends to the soul and spirit as well as the physical body. It seems to me that in your terminology, you use the word flesh not to refer to the physical body and behavior that might emanate from it, but as a metaphor to refer to all evil behavior regardless of its source. Therefore, when I say that Jesus had a flesh like ours, you think that I am saying that the sinfulness that characterizes men was a characteristic of Jesus. judyt: I see flesh as mankind as a unit or natural man. The unit that Gary and JD talk about. is not what I am saying. If you have tasted holiness and the deliverance from the power of sin within us, then you should have a good sense of the victory over the flesh that Jesus experienced. I believe that Jesus lived this victory all his life (unlike us) because he was unique, he was the Son of God, his spirit was strong from the beginning over the flesh, his mind was upon God from the very beginning, he was empowered with the Spirit without measure. judyt: I understand what you are saying David and yes I have experienced a measure of both. The reason I don't believe Jesus to be exactly the same as us goes back to the garden. It is my belief that when Adam chose to eat from the other tree (and these trees represent two kinds of wisdom) that another kingdom entered him bringing forth a different kind of fruit. I believe all sin to be rooted in fear. Fear that our needs will not be taken care of; control and all sorts of other phobias are rooted in fear; mankind as a whole is full of fear and it was envy rooted in fear that crucified Jesus. However, I see none of this residing in Him and at the end of his ministry right before he was arrested he said the prince of this world cometh and hath nothing in me which is amazing since he has all kinds of strongholds in the rest of us. I see salvation as a walk of grace with progressive deliverance even though at the beginning we can say it is so by faith. As to Jesus experiencing temptation and every human affliction so that he understands our infirmities - I understand this as a combination of his physical human limitations along with the experience of the cross where the curse for every sin imaginable rested upon him alone for a period of time or until It was finished! Does this make any sense to you? I would be interested in your thoughts. From my perspective, all of this gave him power over whatever desires of his flesh that would be contrary to God. Therefore, he became perfect through suffering, just like us. He experienced intense temptation, the greatest when he went to the cross and sweat drops of blood as his flesh cried out against the course he had taken but his spirit and soul kept the course, contrary to the desires of his flesh. Something else about terminology. I suspect that what you might call flesh, I would call soul. So when you hear me use the word flesh, your mind is thinking about his soul, and you cannot imagine Jesus with a wicked soul. judyt: No, when you say flesh I think of mankind or the whole man with a darkened spirit, a soul trained in unrighteousness and ungodliness, and a body wearing the curse of ungodly choices which is the condition of everyone outside of Christ and some who are in Him but have not yet learned how to walk and overcome by faith. I I certainly agree that Jesus did not have a wicked soul. Jesus was righteous and pure in every way. Much of my perspective from my terms comes from recognizing that when Paul said flesh he meant flesh, as in physical body. History helps me accept this because I understand the Greek mindset of those Paul wrote his letters to, the Platonic, mindset which drew a sharp dichotomy between the material and the spiritual, with the material world being that which is subject to corruption and change and evil, but the spiritual world that which is perfect and pure and the archetype for the material world. judyt: I
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
judyt: Technically yes, but then we are playing word games. My question is always what does scripture communicate. I believe He was always a member of the Godhead He is the same yesterday, today, and forever; He is God the Word and when He took upon himself mankind's likeness He was still God the Word emptied of the glory He had in heaven and observed in the form of man. On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:11:14 -0400 David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judy wrote: He was on earth as the Son of God. ... God is omnipotent and omnipresent, transcendent etc. When he came in a flesh body Jesus was none of these, in fact He plainly said The Father is greater than I. JD wrote: Don't be fooled. The scriptures plainly teach that Jesus Christ was God and man. Do either of you think that being a Son of God is different than being God? Would not being a Son of God make him God just as being a Son of Man makes him man? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy wrote: They had to receive the Word of God before being baptized - see the example of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. This is true, but the Ethiopian you mention did not say the sinner's prayer. He asked to be baptized. This passage tells me several things: 1) Philip did not tell him to bow his head and ask Jesus to come into his heart; otherwise, he would not have said, if thou believest with all thine heart. jt: If you look at the passage of scripture the Ethiopian was reading and not understanding Isaiah 53:7,8 it is all about the sacrifice for our transgression. The man had been to Jerusalem to worship so apparently he had enough background to put it all together I don't believe he was under the assumption that he was being saved by baptism; I would say that he received the Word, the Holy Spirit gave him understanding and that this was a baptism of repentance. 2) the point of his public confession of Christ was water baptism rather than an altar call where he says the sinner's prayer. Reading earlier in the chapter, Acts 8:12 says that when they believed Philip, they were baptized. In modern times, it does not often work that way in Protestant churches. What happens is that when the believe, they are led in a prayer. Close your eyes and repeat after me... Baptism is usually not even mentioned, so that new converts often go years attending church without being baptized. In my opinion, this is an over-reaction to Roman Catholicism's emphasis on the saving aspect of baptism through the proper authority in order to be saved. jt: Maybe so. Last night we were discussing a church our family used to attend in VaBch which would preach the Word, call sinners to repentance by beliving on Jesus and baptise them after the service (right away) believing for the baptism of Jesus in the Holy Spirit also and these people would come up out of the water speaking in tongues. Last night I met a girl who graduated from a High School that was situated at the back of this church. She got curious and went with some of her friends and this was her experience back when she was 19yrs old. She is now md with a 14yr old and a 4yr old and the conversion stuck - she and her husband are pressing on and raising godly sons. The point is not that the sinner's prayer is wrong or bad. The point is that leading someone to salvation through saying the sinner's prayer is not a Biblical tradition. You and Izzy claim to only believe what you read in the Scriptures. If you have ever led someone to salvation by having them say a prayer, you did not get this tradition from the Scriptures. jt: How does one repent and commit publicly aside from prayer? Especially when there is no baptismal or water handy. I think this is straining at gnats because God has honored it, especially at Billy Graham and other evangelistic rallies. The closest passage I know of would be the tax collector of Luke 18:13-14, but nobody there led this man in a prayer. It came from his heart. The Biblical tradition of how to lead someone into faith in Christ is to bring them to the waters of baptism if they believe with all their heart. I'm talking about the Biblical model for how a believer would lead another believer into becoming a disciple of Christ. Do you agree? jt: That may be the best way David but there is so much error associated with baptism because of the false teachings of the RCC which is probably why (as you have pointed out) some wait and disciple ppl a little longer. Judy wrote: But then some were baptized without a heart change - see Simon the magician who even after being baptized wanted to pay money to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Today if someone rebuked a new believer as Peter did there they would be run out of church; today they would just love them and put them in the choir. So very true and so very sad. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy wrote: Problem is that the scriptures he used were not pertaining to the weakness of Jesus flesh; the ONLY scriptures on this subject are the ones using the word likeness - the others speak to different areas or our pilgrimage - which is different from His even though he did leave us an example to follow and power from on high to enable us. Judy, the Scriptures I use most definitely DO pertain to the weakness of Jesus flesh. As you point out, the strongest one mentions SINFUL flesh (Rom. 8:3). jt: Romans 8:3 speaks (post resurrection) to us and our sinful flesh - Vs.2 contrasts two laws The law of sin and death The law of the spirit of life in Christ Do you believe that when he inhabited a physical body Christ walked under the law of sin and death? You are hung up on the word likeness, apparently interpreting it to mean counterfeit or something like that. Well, Jesus did not have a counterfeit flesh, a flesh that looked like human flesh but really was not. jt: I agree he had a genuine flesh body, but don't accept that he had a fallen flesh nature. The other passages I have mentioned focus very much on how Christ humbled himself by becoming man. jt: Sure - for someone who created everything that is to become part of His creation and put on a body suit must be humbling and then to serve them rather than to be served is even more humbling. It speaks of his suffering, or his experiencing death, etc., all things that have to do with flesh that is corruptible. Death is the strongest evidence that his flesh was the same. The Scriptures teach us that the sting of death is sin. Lord willing, I will share more later. jt: In His case - our sin, not His. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy wrote: Yes, I do believe we all come into this world with an inheritance in and a natural propensity toward sin ... ATST I don't believe that all babies automatically go to hell because God is merciful and He is a God of covenant which is what Paul takes into consideration when he speaks of believer md to unbeliever and so long as they remain together their children are holy (because of the godly influence in that home). I don't think we completely understand these issues of sin and righteousness - like we should. You say that we don't completely undertsand these issues. I think what you are doing is acknowledging an inconsistency in your theological perspective. You don't understand these issues because your logical perspective is inconsistent with the voice of your conscience. You are having trouble reconciling the idea of children being born in sin and yet something in your conscience which does not accept the idea that they are condemned to hell. If you were logically consistent with your viewpoint that if Jesus were born in the same flesh as us he would be unholy, then you would have to conclude that the children also are unholy and deserve hell and damnation. This is what has led many church scholars to the importance of infant baptism. jt: Conscience has nothing to do with it and neither does logic so far as I'm concerned. I am still learning David and from what I can see scripture teaches this. I don't put any credence in what the RCC do as they have embraced so much error that this is dangerous. In the early church Paul told believers that their children were sanctified because of their faith and this has to do with Covenant. God is a Covenant God whether we like it or not. We don't understand as we should becaue we put a lot more value on his power/works than do do upon understanding His ways. If children can be born holy, or in other words, born separated unto God and not deserving of the damnation of hell, why not Jesus? jt: Jesus was born holy and he is the exception to the rule; the rest of us are born in sin because we are of the first Adam - and part of a fallen people. I think the logically consistent position that would lead us to a better understanding is that a person's flesh does not, in itself, condemn a person to the damnation of hell. jt: A person's physical body alone does not condemn them to hell; it is the sin nature that indwells the person's physical body that is condemned and deserves God's wrath. It is when a person responds to his flesh and commits sin that he becomes guilty. jt: In the light of God's holiness a sinner is guilty and unclean whether or not they have committed a specific sin. Look at Job - someone who God called a righteous man. He instinctively knew that there was no way for the unclean to make itself clean and he knew he needed a dayspring/redeemer It seems to me that Izzy and I are in agreement on this point. What do you think? jt: I think it is abhorrent to think of cute little newborns with a satanic stronghold within them but it doesn't take long for the disease to declare itself. (Obviously, my next proposition, if this is accepted, is to talk about Jesus and the relationship between his flesh and holiness.) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy wrote: Was Jesus born with a regular fleshly human nature as per Galatians 5:19 Gal. 5:19ff describes the kind of behavior that would have been manifested in Jesus if he had followed his flesh. The behavior listed there does not describe Jesus because he followed the Spirit and not the flesh. The point is that Jesus CONQUERED all the temptations listed here. Jesus had victory over them. If his flesh was not like our flesh, he would not have had victory over these temptations. Note that even after being born again and receiving the Spirit of Christ, we have all these things abiding in our flesh. Why aren't they alive? jt: They are for too many of us and just like with the children of Israel when they entered Canaan. God does not drive all of the enemies out immediately because of our ignorance, we wouldn't be strong enough to stand since we have been trained in unrighteousness. Why aren't we walking in adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strife, seditions, heresies, envy, murder, drunkenness, and partying on weekends? jt: All of these sadly have a large part in the professing church. Even my pastor who is a godly man reminded me last night that ppl are prone to sin. The reason is because we reckon our flesh dead by the power of the Spirit's operation in our life. jt: Yes, this is what we do when we walk after the Spirit consistently. Consistency is the problem for us. I don't see that it was a problem for Him though. The existence of all this within our flesh does not condemn us and prevent us from being holy. Neither did it make Jesus Christ unholy. jt: It wasn't in Him; he was the Son of God - remember. The second Adam. I don't believe he was born a member of the first Adamic race and became the second Adam at the resurrection - is this what you are saying? Rather, the existence of this within his body illustrated his great power over sin. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
I am very aware that the old man still lurks in the darkness, more than ready to take over if allowed to do so. "There is nothing good in me" is a statement that applies to anyone without the mind of Christ. I stopped drinking twenty years ago because one was too many and a case was not enough. Twenty years later there isn't much that sounds better than a cold long neck beer, but I know better than to have one, and I thank the Lord for the strength He has given me that enables me to not go that route. == David Miller wrote: Amen! Terry, do you recognize that while you are not living in these things now, that they lie still within your physical body dormant and would awaken should you yield to them? For example, if you were to begin to lust after women with your eyes, would your body not respond and want more? Except for the spirit of Christ and mind of Christ in you, would such not lead you toward adultery if you were to give yourself over to it? This is what I mean by referring to the sin nature that exists within our flesh. Do you think that Jesus had this same kind of male body, that would be attracted toward females in ways that would not glorify his Father were he to yield solely to the desires of his body? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe that Philip 2:12-13 presents us with the teaching that God is the reason forour will to do the right thing and our ability to accomplish such -- that this applies to all of mankind since the Reconciliation (Col 1:17-24). When I read that "No man comes to me except the Father draws him," I think of this Philip passage. And in John 3:21, I see this thinking confirmed. In that passage, we practice the truth and (then) come to the Light. Christ manifests or reveals thatthis practice of truth was actually accomplish "in God." Before coming to Christ, I have a relationship of sorts with God. This is why repentance is so important. Before repentance, God is a work in me but I am not his partner -- not a good thing. After repentance, I have fellowshipor "joint participation" with God (Philip 2:1). Repentance is a change of mind - getting things right in our minds -- a turning around. When I "receive the Spirit," I am accepting a gifted presence already a part of who I am as a result of reconciliation. In Christ, the works of God (doneeven before I came into light) are manifested to be the works of God, Himself (again--John3:21). Read for yourself and see how this passage (John 3:21) is related to John 3:3 and the other passages I have mentioned. . JD === Repentance is indeed important. Before you repented, you were an enemy of God. God was angry with you every day. Now that you are on His side, He is able to love you without the anger or the animosity hindering His blessings He had planned for you. You were not reconciled to God while you were serving Satan. Can't work that way. Terry
[TruthTalk] [Fwd: French Terrorism Alert]
Be ever alert, it may happen French Terrorism Alert The AP and UPI report that the French Government announced yesterday that it has raised its terror alert level from Run to Hide. The only two higher levels in France are Surrender and Collaborate. The raise was precipitated by a recent fire which destroyed France's white flag factory, effectively disabling their military. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Amen Terry ever the obedient son walking in blessing and fleeing youthful lust. I know what you mean as the alcohol addiction is in my family also so I stay away from that and am thankful that husband and children are not involved with it. jt On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:38:52 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am very aware that the old man still lurks in the darkness, more than ready to take over if allowed to do so. "There is nothing good in me" is a statement that applies to anyone without the mind of Christ. I stopped drinking twenty years ago because one was too many and a case was not enough. Twenty years later there isn't much that sounds better than a cold long neck beer, but I know better than to have one, and I thank the Lord for the strength He has given me that enables me to not go that route.==David Miller wrote: Amen! Terry, do you recognize that while you are not living in these things now, that they lie still within your physical body dormant and would awaken should you yield to them? For example, if you were to begin to lust after women with your eyes, would your body not respond and want more? Except for the spirit of Christ and mind of Christ in you, would such not lead you toward adultery if you were to give yourself over to it? This is what I mean by referring to the sin nature that exists within our flesh. Do you think that Jesus had this same kind of male body, that would be attracted toward females in ways that would not glorify his Father were he to yield solely to the desires of his body? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Show me that I am speculating from the Bible Lance... I want to see where the children of unbelievers are holy and acceptable to God in there. jt On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:28:27 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How 'bout the children/hell thingy? Speculation of the first order! From: Judy Taylor Lance why don't you check the scriptures first before running off at the mouth and labelling everything and everyone who dosent' align themself with the heresy you endorse? Do you know what Paul said about marriage between believer and non-believer in the NT and their children? On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:02:04 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Wow! What a load ofwell...speculation in that second paragraph. May we be blessed with OT NT scriptures which explicitly teach what you just 'taught'? From: Judy Taylor Yes, I do believe we all come into this world with an "inheritance" in and a natural "propensity" toward sin which is why it is our responsibility not to waste anytime in trainingour children in the ways of God - it's not long before their rebellious little sin natures would take the place if they are not restrained and retrained. ATSTI don't believe that all babiesautomatically go to hellbecause God ismerciful and Heis a God of covenant which is what Paul takes into consideration when he speaks ofbeliever md to unbeliever and solong as they remaintogether their children are "holy" (because of the godly influence in that home). I don't think we completely understand these issues of sin and righteousness - like we should. jt From: ShieldsFamily Judy, it seems that you believe that being born with a fleshly human nature is what defiles us. I believe it does not: it simply gives us the Propensity to sin. We are not defiled unless/until we actually sin. (Which Jesus obviously did not do.) That is why it does not bother DM or me to believe that Jesus was born with a human-prone-to-sin-in-all-ways-that-we-are nature, which He overcame to show us that we can also if we walk in the Spirit as He did. You seem to see us as born already defiled. You seem to believe that a pre-born or newborn baby that dies would go to hell. I donÂ’t think we are defiled/unclean when we are born. I think that is the critical difference between our thinking on this. Do you? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy TaylorYou are the one who adds "in all respects" JD - I don't see this in scripture. What I see is "likeness" which I read asphysical likeness. IOW he had a body like ours. There is a moral dimension to flesh - it isnot body image only When Job says "who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean" (Job 14:4) he is speaking of this moral dimension or moral cleanness and purity. This is the difference between us in the flesh and Christ's humanity. He has always been clean and pure As a race we never have been and this is what put him on the cross.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
'you shall die', anyway--beer drinking is irrelevant, not a life or death issue except to the God-manipulators On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:02:39 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || I stay away from that and am thankful that husband and children are not involved with it. jt ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
speculation, thefulcrum ofmanipulation On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:07:27 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..I want to see where the children of unbelievers are holy and acceptable to God in there. jt On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:28:27 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How 'bout the children/hell thingy? Speculation of the first order! ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
No the B-I-B-L-E Gary is not speculation. Doctrines of men that give a false peace are speculation - in which the deceiver is an expert. On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:22:27 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: speculation, thefulcrum ofmanipulation On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:07:27 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..I want to see where the children of unbelievers are holy and acceptable to God in there. jt On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:28:27 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How 'bout the children/hell thingy? Speculation of the first order! ||
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
DAVEH: His ordination of the apostles would suggest otherwise, Judy. For what reason did he call and ordain the apostles if they were not to stand in for Him? Did he not give them authority and then command them to preach and baptize in his name? Judith H Taylor wrote: Dave, Jesus is the authority and he did not set up a hierarchal flesh kingdom to stand in for Him His kingdom is organic rather than organizational. Leadership leads by example rather than as CEO The least is as important as the greatest and all are to submit one to another in the fear of God. This is the example we find in the NT. You will note that John recognized the false by the way they behaved and warned the Church not to receive them. judyt On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:59:59 -0700 Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DAVEH: As I see it, the big problem was not the heresy as much as it was the lack of authority. Judy Taylor wrote: From my perspective the Mormon boys are being shown by those of you who adhere to Orthodoxy to a Tee that Joseph Smith was right - His big problem was with the heresy of all the sects. It's not difficult to see as it's even worse today than it was then -he was right on that point - -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
In view of the fact that He has defeated Satan, and Satan's power (death), in view of the fact that He has "condemned sin in the flesh" (hasn't God always been pretty much against sin?) -- brother Ottoson's point is well stated. Talk about your basic profundity?! It is such because it is true!!! "Condemned" by the way, means He defeated sin - He gave it a death sentence. Jd-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:37:58 -0600Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 sin has nothing to do with God--there is nothing Godmust defeat, over which to exercise power to control sin is attempting to manipulate God--God has yet to be manipulated God's power is sacred, employedpurely to elevate in his own style those whocommit tothe foregoing, rather than to make the world/ly moral whileone loves God, he is learning, simply, to have nothing to do with sin; however, as we see, for mankind this is impossible On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:02:06 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As Son of God, He is the fullness of the very nature of God, the visible presentation of the invisibleGod.
RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Im still busy drying off. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 7:20 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 I did not get BT's post, referenced below. Linda, when you finish drying off, could you repost? Thanks so much, in advance. JD -Original Message- From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:40:47 -0500 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Good post, Bill, and I think I agree with you basically on your points about the spirit aspect of humans. I?ve never been one to think we can compartmentalize body/soul/spirit?what affects one affects all. Please do, however, discuss your views on the ?organic? connectedness that we all share via our spirit aspect. I?m intrigued. izzy Furthermore, aspirit does not have any physical attributes, hence it does not take up space, so to speak; hence neither does it occupy a particular place. It may be present, but not in terms of physical dimensions. (By the way, I think we are going to be amazed to find out the organic connectedness that we all share via our spirit aspect -- but that is a discussion for another day) Bill
RE: [TruthTalk] **Moderator comment** I need help watching.
Surely you are jesting, JD. iz But I am disappointed that you put your family and wife ahead of those of us who accept your leadership and advice. I will deal wth it, somehow.but it complicates things a bit. JD
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
You might want to consider His words recorded in Matthew 20:26-28, Dave. "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those that are great exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave...just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve." Peter got the message. Look at his advice in 1 Peter, 5:2-3 "Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers not by compulsion, but willingly, not for dishonest gain, but eagerly nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." Terry Dave wrote: DAVEH: His ordination of the apostles would suggest otherwise, Judy. For what reason did he call and ordain the apostles if they were not to stand in for Him? Did he not give them authority and then command them to preach and baptize in his name? Judith H Taylor wrote: Dave, Jesus is the authority and he did not set up a hierarchal flesh kingdom to stand in for Him His kingdom is organic rather than organizational. Leadership leads by example rather than as CEO The least is as important as the greatest and all are to submit one to another in the fear of God. This is the example we find in the NT. You will note that John recognized the false by the way they behaved and warned the Church not to receive them. judyt On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:59:59 -0700 Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DAVEH: As I see it, the big problem was not the heresy as much as it was the lack of authority. Judy Taylor wrote: From my perspective the Mormon boys are being shown by those of you who adhere to Orthodoxy to a Tee that Joseph Smith was right - His big problem was with the heresy of all the sects. It's not difficult to see as it's even worse today than it was then -he was right on that point - -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 'you shall die', anyway--beer drinking is irrelevant, not a life or death issue except to the God-manipulators === Beer drinking is only irrelevant as long as you remain sober. When you drink enough to get drunk, God is angry with you. No believer wants that. Terry
RE: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
I would agree, David, if I knew any other way of talking to Jesus today except through prayer. Sinner's prayer is just the wording I used to express the fact that the person needs to confess and receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. There is no template--it comes from the heart. It is just the way a person can speak out his faith and ask God to indwell and lead him. Do you have a problem with that? The folks who lived in Jesus day could walk right up to Him, talk to Him, and follow Him around with His pack of disciples. We can't do that. But people from one end of the other of the Bible found ways to invite God into their lives and make Him their Lord. izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 6:18 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 JD wrote: Why do we not find people in the NT scriptures inviting the Lord into their lives? Izzy wrote: We see it all the time. Did they leave that part out of your translation also? I think John's point is that in the Bible, people did not invite the Lord into their lives through saying the sinner's prayer. Rather, they were led into the waters of baptism rather than into saying a prayer. Do you recognize this Izzy? The sinner's prayer is not a Biblical way of leading people to faith in Christ and the experience of being born again. If anyone accepts this method as valid, it is not because they learned it directly from the Bible. Do you agree? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
-Original Message-From: Judith H Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:31:14 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:15:53 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I believe that Philip 2:12-13 presents us with the teaching that God is the reason forour will to do the right thing and our ability to accomplish such -- that this applies to all of mankind since the Reconciliation (Col 1:17-24). When I read that "No man comes to me except the Father draws him," I think of this Philip passage. And in John 3:21, I see this thinking confirmed. In that passage, we practice the truth and (then) come to the Light. Christ manifests or reveals thatthis practice of truth was actually accomplish "in God." Before coming to Christ, I have a relationship of sorts with God. This is why repentance is so important. Before repentance, God is a work in me but I am not his partner -- not a good thing. After repentance, I have fellowshipor "joint participation" with God (Philip 2:1). Judy: JD you need to take ALL scripture into consideration. John 3:36 teaches that the wrath of God CONTINUES to abide on those who do not believe the Son. I don't get the idea that God is working in them when His wrath CONTINUES to abide on them. What would make you believe this?? It is the wrath of the heavenly Father. Don't you see that when our heavenly parent is angry with us, He is still working His will in us -- even if this be through some kind of discipline (and I accept some of your perspective, here, for the sake of argument). Repentance is a change of mind - getting things right in our minds -- a turning around. When I "receive the Spirit," I am accepting a gifted presence already a part of who I am as a result of reconciliation. In Christ, the works of God (doneeven before I came into light) are manifested to be the works of God, Himself (again--John3:21). Read for yourself and see how this passage (John 3:21) is related to John 3:3 and the other passages I have mentioned.JD Judy: John you are leaving out great blocks of truth; when I read what you write I get the idea that some spirit is doing all the work from inside ppl. However scripture teaches that God only gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Jesus (the "Word") First ppl must receive the Word and obey which begins with repentance because those who receive His testimony certify that God is true. Look at the example we have in the first Church: Acts 6:7 "The Word of God increased" Acts 12:24 "The Word of God grew and multiplied" Acts 19:20 "Mightily grew the Word of God and prevailed" Why not pray for the Father to reveal God the Word to you? This is who He was before the "incarnation" I believe there is a functional separation between "The Word" and "The Son." I do not believe there is an ontological separation. Before, after and during - He was both The Word and The Son. and this is who He is in the book of Acts. God has promised that His Word will not return void Isaiah 55:11. Without the truth of His Word - all spiritual activity is suspect. judyt You confuse the spoken word and God the Word. But I have not the time at this moment. Got to go bid a job. JD -Original Message-From: Terry Clifton wabbits1234@earthlink.netTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:39:37 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 John, do you see a big difference in the terms "Born again" and "New creature in Christ"? My own thinking is that it would be hard to be a NEW creature without being born again.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My argument was quite biblical. When you want to honestly discuss the issue, let me know. This post is not that effort. JD -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: truthtalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:41:47 -0400Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]It is not that we do not or cannot understand. Rather, it is that we do understand but reject the message. jt: This is interesting JD - what's wrong with the message? It's Bible. You must be Born Again. Raised from spiritual death to spiritual life IOW by hearing His Voice and not hardening your heart. No man comes to Christ except the Father draw him -- jt: Right! God draws men by way of the "foolishness of preaching" They hear God's Word and the Spirit works in their hard old heart after telling the spirit clouding their mind to "shut up" God being involved in the life of all who are dealing with the Christ issue. jt: So what is the Christ issue? Aside from His Word that is? Philip 2:13 ".. for it is God at work in you ..." is a statement of fact for us all -- saved and unsaved. jt: Nonsense. The unsaved have the devil working in them (see Ephesians 2:1) If we we are "lost," we are so without excuse! jt: Yes because it is God's will that all come to the knowledge of truth and He will make
RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
You are speaking for yourself. iz whileone loves God, he is learning, simply, to have nothing to do with sin; however, as we see, for mankind this is impossible
RE: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
David, two weeks ago our church had an outdoor service where we baptized 193 souls. Every one of them confessed Christ as Lord and Savior when he/she was baptized. When do you think they made Him Lord and Savior--while they were standing in the water, or beforehand? izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 8:32 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 Judy wrote: They had to receive the Word of God before being baptized - see the example of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. This is true, but the Ethiopian you mention did not say the sinner's prayer. He asked to be baptized. This passage tells me several things: 1) Philip did not tell him to bow his head and ask Jesus to come into his heart; otherwise, he would not have said, if thou believest with all thine heart. 2) the point of his public confession of Christ was water baptism rather than an altar call where he says the sinner's prayer. Reading earlier in the chapter, Acts 8:12 says that when they believed Philip, they were baptized. In modern times, it does not often work that way in Protestant churches. What happens is that when the believe, they are led in a prayer. Close your eyes and repeat after me... Baptism is usually not even mentioned, so that new converts often go years attending church without being baptized. In my opinion, this is an over-reaction to Roman Catholicism's emphasis on the saving aspect of baptism through the proper authority in order to be saved. The point is not that the sinner's prayer is wrong or bad. The point is that leading someone to salvation through saying the sinner's prayer is not a Biblical tradition. You and Izzy claim to only believe what you read in the Scriptures. If you have ever led someone to salvation by having them say a prayer, you did not get this tradition from the Scriptures. The closest passage I know of would be the tax collector of Luke 18:13-14, but nobody there led this man in a prayer. It came from his heart. The Biblical tradition of how to lead someone into faith in Christ is to bring them to the waters of baptism if they believe with all their heart. I'm talking about the Biblical model for how a believer would lead another believer into becoming a disciple of Christ. Do you agree? Judy wrote: But then some were baptized without a heart change - see Simon the magician who even after being baptized wanted to pay money to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Today if someone rebuked a new believer as Peter did there they would be run out of church; today they would just love them and put them in the choir. So very true and so very sad. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Youve obviously never been married to a drunk. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 1:13 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 'you shall die', anyway--beer drinking is irrelevant, not a life or death issue except to the God-manipulators On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:02:39 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || I stay away from that and am thankful that husband and children are not involved with it. jt ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Humanity of Jesus
Judy wrote: ... I agree and this is why all three areas must be cleansed of filthiness, sanctification extends to the soul and spirit as well as the physical body. But the point is that the spirit and soul can be swept clean, but the physical body must be reckoned dead and is not swept clean until the resurrection. Do you see this? Judy wrote: I see flesh as mankind as a unit or natural man. The unit that Gary and JD talk about. Well, then, we need to get on the same track with our words. This is not how I see the word flesh. I have an understanding that comes from the following passage: Romans 7:22-25 (22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: (23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Here he contrasts flesh with the inward man and with the mind. He calls it the body of this death. I think he means the physical body, which is what the word flesh means. It seems to me that you need to adjust your perspective of flesh to be more from a Biblical perspective, but you will have to advise me on the feasibility of doing that. Judy wrote: The reason I don't believe Jesus to be exactly the same as us goes back to the garden. It is my belief that when Adam chose to eat from the other tree (and these trees represent two kinds of wisdom) that another kingdom entered him bringing forth a different kind of fruit. I believe all sin to be rooted in fear. Fear that our needs will not be taken care of; control and all sorts of other phobias are rooted in fear; mankind as a whole is full of fear and it was envy rooted in fear that crucified Jesus. However, I see none of this residing in Him and at the end of his ministry right before he was arrested he said the prince of this world cometh and hath nothing in me which is amazing since he has all kinds of strongholds in the rest of us. I see salvation as a walk of grace with progressive deliverance even though at the beginning we can say it is so by faith. Well, now we are back to Calvinism and the RCC and Augustine traditional viewpoint of original sin. For someone who criticizes all of these often, you sure do hold tenaciously to their view of the Adamic fall. Are you familiar with Charles Finney? He was a Presbyterian like you, but not very keen on Calvinism. In his day, Calvinism had very much darkened much of Christianity, and his theology helped cure much that went wrong. He teaches a distinction between moral depravity and physical depravity. My system of understanding differs quite a bit from Finney, but perhaps some of his lectures on moral depravity and physical depravity might help you in regards to your Calvinistic bent on this subject. If are familiar with him, let me know, if not, consider looking up his material on the Internet. I'm sure much of it is published there because he has no copyright issues having lived some time ago. Judy wrote: As to Jesus experiencing temptation and every human affliction so that he understands our infirmities - I understand this as a combination of his physical human limitations along with the experience of the cross where the curse for every sin imaginable rested upon him alone for a period of time or until It was finished! Does this make any sense to you? I would be interested in your thoughts. Yes, this makes fine sense and I see it the same way. I probably put a little more emphasis on his living and resisting temptation before the cross than you do, but ultimately the biggest test of his life came at the cross when he actually became sin, experienced death, and when death and sin thought it had won, he vanquished it forever. Hallelujah. Judy wrote: ... when you say flesh I think of mankind or the whole man with a darkened spirit, a soul trained in unrighteousness and ungodliness, and a body wearing the curse of ungodly choices which is the condition of everyone outside of Christ and some who are in Him but have not yet learned how to walk and overcome by faith. Well, I certainly don't see Jesus that way, so our biggest obstacle here is that flesh means something different to you than it does to me. Without grasping the dualism of Romans 7, I'm not sure we can communicate on this well. Right now I feel the way I have felt teaching pre-med students at the university biological concepts with words for which they had limited understanding. Perhaps I need to do a word study on the word flesh and determine whether there are grounds for me dropping my more narrow definition of the term. Problem is, I don't have a lot of time this week. Judy wrote: ... shows what a strong hold the adversary had
Re: [TruthTalk] Humanity of Jesus
David Miller wrote: But the point is that the spirit and soul can be swept clean, but the physical body must be reckoned dead and is not swept clean until the resurrection. Do you see this? I have other things calling my attention right now, but this did not come across very well. What I meant to say is that the flesh is not swept COMPLETELY clean until the resurrection, and this is in contrast to the spirit which is swept clean completely, and the soul which progressively is cleaned as the new spirit takes over. Until later... Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
you project this injt's 'B-I-B-L-E'the child of a beer drinker is going to hell--apparently neither of you (God-manipulators)are searchg for the truth On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:14:43 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || When you drink enough to get drunk, God is angry with you.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
about ppl like you On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:29:33 -0500 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You are speaking for yourself. iz whileone loves God, he is learning, simply, to have nothing to do with sin; however, as we see, for mankind this is impossible
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
you aren'tGod--you're a God-manipulator On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:57:10 -0500 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Youve obviously never been married to a drunk. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 1:13 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 'you shall die', anyway--beer drinking is irrelevant, not a life or death issue except to the God-manipulators On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:02:39 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || I stay away from that and am thankful that husband and children are not involved with it. jt ||
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
Blainerb: "I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right . . . the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that they: draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrine the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof." Joseph Smith In a message dated 7/23/2005 12:00:36 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DAVEH: As I see it, the big problem was not the heresy as much as it was the lack of authority.Judy Taylor wrote: From my perspective the Mormon boys are being shown by those of you who adhere to Orthodoxy to a Tee that Joseph Smith was right - His big problem was with the heresy of all the sects. It's not difficult to see as it's even worse today than it was then -he was right on that point -
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Divisiveness
In a message dated 7/23/2005 12:08:57 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DAVEH: While it does make for an interesting sideshow, to me it is rather disappointing. I had hoped that most non LDS Christians would find more agreement in their beliefs. I'm not sure why I thought that would be the case though, as history has repeatedly demonstrated the lack of cohesion amongst most Christians. From my perspective, most LDS splinter groups seem to be rooted in accepting (or not) those who are in authority, and recognizing them as representatives of the Lord. On the other hand, that seems to have no import to the non-LDS Christian world. Except in the RCC, authority apparently has little relevance, and doctrinal disputations (misinterpretations) seemingly divide Protestantism as efficiently as a Ginsu knife demonstration slices, chops and dices onions. Blainerb: Hey what a co-incidence! Just yesterday I ate at a Japanese restaurant, and got to see the ginsu knife demonstration first-hand. :) Lance Muir wrote: Forget what I 'say'. Just stand back and watch. I'd say that what this amounts to is a sideshow for our Mormon friends. They are being told by Perry, Kevin, you, David and Linda that that which and, in Whom, they believe is not Biblical. You folks are demonstrating that A It can't be known (even after having believed for decades) B That it doesn't reall matter all that much EXCEPT FOR MORMONS, OF COURSE!
Re: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: French Terrorism Alert]
Very good! I forwarded this to my fans. Blainerb In a message dated 7/23/2005 12:05:43 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Be ever alert, it may happen French Terrorism Alert The AP and UPI report that the French Government announced yesterday that ithas raised its terror alert level from Run to Hide.The only two higher levels in France are Surrender and Collaborate.The raise was precipitated by a recent fire which destroyed France's whiteflag factory, effectively disabling their military.
RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Whered you pick up the big new term, G? Is that going to replace myth for a while? Really cute. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 5:17 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 you aren'tGod--you're a God-manipulator On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:57:10 -0500 ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Youve obviously never been married to a drunk. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 1:13 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 'you shall die', anyway--beer drinking is irrelevant, not a life or death issue except to the God-manipulators On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:02:39 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || I stay away from that and am thankful that husband and children are not involved with it. jt ||
RE: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
JSmith quoting the real Bible in his collections of the commandments of JSmith. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 5:45 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter' Blainerb: I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right . . . the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that they: draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrine the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof. Joseph Smith In a message dated 7/23/2005 12:00:36 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DAVEH: As I see it, the big problem was not the heresy as much as it was the lack of authority. Judy Taylor wrote: From my perspective the Mormon boys are being shown by those of you who adhere to Orthodoxy to a Tee that Joseph Smith was right - His big problem was with the heresy of all the sects. It's not difficult to see as it's even worse today than it was then -he was right on that point -
RE: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: French Terrorism Alert]
You have fans? Are you a rock star, or what Blainerb? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 5:57 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: French Terrorism Alert] Very good! I forwarded this to my fans. Blainerb In a message dated 7/23/2005 12:05:43 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Be ever alert, it may happen French Terrorism Alert The AP and UPI report that the French Government announced yesterday that it has raised its terror alert level from Run to Hide. The only two higher levels in France are Surrender and Collaborate. The raise was precipitated by a recent fire which destroyed France's white flag factory, effectively disabling their military.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Judy, why are you answering posted comments to David?I already know and have rejected what you believe about Christ not being God Incarnate.I had somehow missed DM's point. Jd-Original Message-From: Judith H Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:51:28 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Judyt: My point is that he was not fully God in the flesh and neither was he fully man because he is constantly referred to as a "holy child" He was holy from birth Mankind is not and this is why we so desperately need him and why he diedfor us He is what He is and we need to be open to receive that revelation from the Lord rather than die for some creed that misrepresents Him for fear of heresy. The important thing is that we be conformed to His image before he returns for us. On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:34:46 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Absolutely? Your point? Jd-Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:11:14 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Judy wrote: He was on earth as the Son of God. ... God is omnipotent and omnipresent, transcendent etc. When he came in a flesh body Jesus was none of these, in fact He plainly said "The Father is greater than I". JD wrote: Don't be fooled. The scriptures plainly teach that Jesus Christ was God and man. Do either of you think that being a Son of God is different than being God? Would not being a Son of God make him God just as being a Son of Man makes him man? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
I have talked plenty about what we are saved from - OURSELVES. God is already at work in us to will and to doHis good pleasure (Phil 2:13). Christ has ALREADY reconciled us to Himself (Col 1:19ff). The fact that this Colossian passage does not fit into your theology, written as it is, is no fault of mine. I refuse to change the basic wording of any passage to get it to fit into a theological construct. You use the phrase "in balance and context" to forecast the fact that you are going to redefine a given (problematic) passage by quoting other scripture rather than deal with those posted concerns that present the weakness of your position.. i.e. you completely ignore what I have written below. What we have here, is one monologue verses another monolgue. JD -Original Message-From: Judith H Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:02:49 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Judyt: Much as I hate to disagree with you and Terry I've got to on this one because it promotes the "incarnational" thing. Colossians 1:22 is the reality of the "risen Christ" John. It is not how he walked amongst Israel and reading scripture in balance and context would demonstrate this. Why would the "fullness of the Godhead bodily" say "My Father is greater than I?" Also IMO you carry this "representative" thing too far on the other end. We had no choice but to be born into the first Adam. We do have a choice as to whether or not we embrace the second and if we do not receive the Word of Godembrace reality by agreeing withHis assessment and obey Him - we will continue on in our wretchedness and His Kingdom will be alien to and unavailable to us because God's wrath continues to abide on us (John 3:36) We don't talk about what we have been saved from. Why not? On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:27:39 -0500 Terry Clifton wabbits1234@earthlink.net writes: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my posted comment below, I say "God and man." He is the Son of God and, thus, God Himself (John 5:18). He is the Son of Man, thus, man(kind) himself. As Son of God, He is the fullness of the very nature of God, the visible presentation of the invisibleGod. As Son of Man,He is the prefect(ed) representative of man !! As a result, in Him, mankind, full of faith,escapes judgment (John 5:24 and Col 1:22, where the word translated "blameless" means "unaccused" or he who "cannot be called into account" - Thayer).PTL !! JD===You have said well.Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Judy, the victory we walk in is Christ's victory over sin. All spiritual blessings are IN HIM. HE HAS OVERCOME THE WORLD.there is nothing else to do. Your teaching , logically, has no middle ground. Do you know this. Ditto for David. As soon as you argue that we must obey the commandments to be saved,you must include ALL the commandments in order to be saved and you must all the commandments RIGHT NOW in order to be saved -- because Christ sacrifice only includes "past sins." Your teaching is impossible. JD -Original Message-From: Judith H Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:21:17 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 judyt: Not entirely true JD. Yes he won the victory for us but it does take effort to walk in that victory This is what it means to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" and "continuing in hope" or not letting go. We must overcome the world, flesh, and devil because of our faith in His victory. This takes effort. Studying to show oneself approved and rightly dividing the Word of Truth takes effort. He can not present us holy and blameles without our cooperation. It does not work by magic. jt On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:19:31 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The reason we are not comdemned has nothing, ultimately, to do with our effort. Rather, in Christ we escape judgment altogether (John 3:18; 5:24). Because of the fact of reconciliation, we are presented as ones who cannot (read: CANNOT) be called into account - cf. Col 1:22 and the word "blameless"). JD-Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:57:30 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Judy wrote: Was Jesus born with a regular fleshly human nature as per Galatians 5:19 Gal. 5:19ff describes the kind of behavior that would have been manifested in Jesus if he had followed his flesh. The behavior listed there does not describe Jesus because he followed the Spirit and not the flesh. The point is that Jesus CONQUERED all the temptations listed here. Jesus had victory over them. If his flesh was not like our flesh, he would not have had victory over these temptations. Note that even after being born again and receiving the Spirit of Christ, we have all these things abiding in our flesh. Why aren't they alive? Why aren't we walking in adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strife, seditions, heresies, envy, murder, drunkenness, and partying on weekends? The reason is because we reckon our flesh dead by the power of the Spirit's operation in our life. The existence of all this within our flesh does not condemn us and prevent us from being holy. Neither did it make Jesus Christ unholy. Rather, the existence of this within his body illustrated his great power over sin. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Note that even after being born againand receiving the Spirit of Christ, we have all these things abiding in our flesh. Whyaren't they alive? DM Conjecture is not necessarily bad - just as long we admit that this is what we are doing. JD-Original Message-From: Judith H Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:52:14 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy wrote: Was Jesus born with a regular fleshly human nature as per Galatians 5:19 Gal. 5:19ff describes the kind of behavior that would have been manifested in Jesus if he had followed his flesh. The behavior listed there does not describe Jesus because he followed the Spirit and not the flesh. The point is that Jesus CONQUERED all the temptations listed here. Jesus had victory over them. If his flesh was not like our flesh, he would not have had victory over these temptations. Note that even after being born again and receiving the Spirit of Christ, we have all these things abiding in our flesh. Why aren't they alive? jt: They are for too many of us and just like with the children of Israel when they entered Canaan. God does not drive all of the enemies out immediately because of our ignorance, we wouldn't be strong enough to stand since we have been trained in unrighteousness. Why aren't we walking in adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strife, seditions, heresies, envy, murder, drunkenness, and partying on weekends? jt: All of these sadly have a large part in the professing church. Even my pastor who is a godly man reminded me last night that ppl are prone to sin. The reason is because we reckon our flesh dead by the power of the Spirit's operation in our life. jt: Yes, this is what we do when we walk after the Spirit consistently. Consistency is the problem for us. I don't see that it was a problem for Him though. The existence of all this within our flesh does not condemn us and prevent us from being holy. Neither did it make Jesus Christ unholy. jt: It wasn't in Him; he was the Son of God - remember. The second Adam. I don't believe he was born a member of the first Adamic race and became the second Adam at the resurrection - is this what you are saying? Rather, the existence of this within his body illustrated his great power over sin. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Total misnomer, noone manipulates God. He isn't one to be conned or fooled with - and He doesn't make deals. It's His way or the highway. Thank You. On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:14:42 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: you project this injt's 'B-I-B-L-E'the child of a beer drinker is going to hell--apparently neither of you (God-manipulators)are searchg for the truth On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:14:43 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || When you drink enough to get drunk, God is angry with you.
Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
Sure it can . and does. It is the Col passage that says all thing have been reconciled. I am just quoting scripture. I can turn it down. I can refuse the "draw" of the Spirit if I prefer. Here is the problem, as I see it. He has reconciled us unto Himself. That is what the Book says. But it also says, "be ye reconciled to God" (II Cor5:20). However you make this last statement work, I do not think you can allow yourself to effectively change the wording of the Colossians passage. That is not solving the problem. That is ignoring the problem. JD === Repentance is indeed important. Before you repented, you were an enemy of God. God was angry with you every day. Now that you are on His side, He is able to love you without the anger or the animosity hindering His blessings He had planned for you. You were not reconciled to God while you were serving Satan. Can't work that way.Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: French Terrorism Alert]
LOL - esp the white flag factory thingy. -Original Message-From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:05:23 -0500Subject: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: French Terrorism Alert] Be ever alert, it may happen French Terrorism Alert The AP and UPI report that the French Government announced yesterday that ithas raised its terror alert level from Run to Hide.The only two higher levels in France are Surrender and Collaborate.The raise was precipitated by a recent fire which destroyed France's whiteflag factory, effectively disabling their military.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
thehostility toJC is noted--not unusual..'His way' isalways the fatality of your way On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:13:02 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It's His way or the highway... On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:14:42 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..injt's 'B-I-B-L-E'the child of a beer drinker is going to hell.. ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
ftr, 'cute' is purely speculative; the archives show uncontested the truth that such speculation is the mother of all manipulation On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:20:11 -0500 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Whered you pick up the big new term, G? Is that going to replace myth for a while? Really cute. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 5:17 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 you aren'tGod--you're a God-manipulator On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:57:10 -0500 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Youve obviously never been married to a drunk. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 1:13 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 'you shall die', anyway--beer drinking is irrelevant, not a life or death issue except to the God-manipulators On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:02:39 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || I stay away from that and am thankful that husband and children are not involved with it. jt ||
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
DAVEH: So what do you think the purpose was of Jesus choosing and ordaining the apostles, Terry? Do you believe Jesus gave them any authority? Terry Clifton wrote: You might want to consider His words recorded in Matthew 20:26-28, Dave. "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those that are great exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave...just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve." Peter got the message. Look at his advice in 1 Peter, 5:2-3 "Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers not by compulsion, but willingly, not for dishonest gain, but eagerly nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." Terry Dave wrote: DAVEH: His ordination of the apostles would suggest otherwise, Judy. For what reason did he call and ordain the apostles if they were not to stand in for Him? Did he not give them authority and then command them to preach and baptize in his name? Judith H Taylor wrote: Dave, Jesus is the authority and he did not set up a hierarchal flesh kingdom to stand in for Him His kingdom is organic rather than organizational. Leadership leads by example rather than as CEO The least is as important as the greatest and all are to submit one to another in the fear of God. This is the example we find in the NT. You will note that John recognized the false by the way they behaved and warned the Church not to receive them. judyt On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:59:59 -0700 Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DAVEH: As I see it, the big problem was not the heresy as much as it was the lack of authority. Judy Taylor wrote: From my perspective the Mormon boys are being shown by those of you who adhere to Orthodoxy to a Tee that Joseph Smith was right - His big problem was with the heresy of all the sects. It's not difficult to see as it's even worse today than it was then -he was right on that point - -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Divisiveness
DAVEH: ??? So you are saying that Jesus came to divide the Christians? Wouldn't it be more reasonable to think following Jesus would cause a division between the Christians and non Christians instead? David Miller wrote: DaveH wrote: Except in the RCC, authority apparently has little relevance, and doctrinal disputations (misinterpretations) seemingly divide Protestantism as efficiently as a Ginsu knife demonstration slices, chops and dices onions. Well, Dave, with 85% of Americans claiming to be Christian, and Jesus saying that narrow and straight is the way that leads to eternal life and few there be that find it, there really does need to be some division among Christians. Even Jesus said: Matthew 10:34-36 (34) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. (35) For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. (36) And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
DAVEH: Why did you change man to mankind, John? Is the root word the same? I'm out of town, and don't have my reference books, nor do I have time to look into it at the moment. But it sure seems to me that there is a big difference between man and mankind. If they were originally meant to be the same, I would have thought the Bible translators would have been anxious to use the same term, yet they chose a different one. So..what am I missing here? Is your assumption based on something other than traditional Protestant thought? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my posted comment below, I say "God and man." He is the Son of God and, thus, God Himself (John 5:18). He is the Son of Man, thus, man(kind) himself. As Son of God, He is the fullness of the very nature of God, the visible presentation of the invisibleGod. As Son of Man,He is the prefect(ed) representative of man !! As a result, in Him, mankind, full of faith,escapes judgment (John 5:24 and Col 1:22, where the word translated "blameless" means "unaccused" or he who "cannot be called into account" - Thayer).PTL !! JD -Original Message- From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:41:11 -0700 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 DAVEH: And..the Son of man as well. Do other TTers not find that immensely important? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't be fooled. The scriptures plainly teach that Jesus Christ was God and man. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
Blainerb: Why do you not believe God can use his own words from thescriptures to express his displeasure over a current situation? Jesus often quoted the scriptures to the Jews to makea point. In the book of Matthew, the writer (Matthew) often does much the same thing. A departure from this would have indicated the story was false. In a message dated 7/23/2005 7:22:08 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: JSmith quoting the real Bible in his collections of the commandments of JSmith. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 5:45 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter' Blainerb: "I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right . . . the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that they: draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrine the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof." Joseph Smith
Re: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: French Terrorism Alert]
Blainerb:Well not a rock star, exactly--butdidn't you know I was a great trumpet player? Maybe my name was Gabe in the pre-existence :) Blainerb playing hisLiberty Model KING trumpet, artist bore, made by HN Whitearound 1929. In a message dated 7/23/2005 7:23:03 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You have fans? Are you a rock star, or what Blainerb? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 5:57 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: French Terrorism Alert] Very good! I forwarded this to my fans. Blainerb
Re: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: French Terrorism Alert]
DAVEH: It appears you also may have modeled for the Angel Moroni statue used on many of the LDS Temples! :-) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb:Well not a rock star, exactly--butdidn't you know I was a great trumpet player? Maybe my name was Gabe in the pre-existence :) Blainerb playing hisLiberty Model KING trumpet, artist bore, made by HN Whitearound 1929. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
