Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
DAVEH: DavidM.I do hope you are now back online, and OK. My guess is that you are relatively quiet because you are out ministering to those who suffered through Katrina.is that a good guess? Why do you think God allowed Satan to screw up the Lord's plan, causing such pain and agony to his Son? Could God not instead simply have banished or even destroyed Lucifer to keep him from bringing temptation into the world? David Miller wrote: Debbie wrote: I would also agree, though, that humanity before the fall was "less" than what we-in-Christ are and will be. The way I understand it, human life prior to the fall was characterized as having: 1. No death. 2. No sickness or disease. 3. No influence of evil spirits of the air. 4. No sinful nature of the flesh. 5. No sin. The plan of redemption in Christ includes a plan of restoration concerning all these areas which changed after the fall. Do you see it differently? After the fall, there was 1) death, 2) sickness and disease, 3) influence of evil spirits in the air to lead others into sin, 4) a sinful nature inherited in the flesh, 5) sin. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
RE: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Good plan, David. iz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 6:49 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Izzy wrote: ... I'd love to cast the devil out of her! But how do I know she would want me to? Do I ask her permission (she'd never agree that she needs it.) Would she wind up worse than before? Ending up worse than before is a very important consideration. I would not recommend doing anything that the Spirit of the Lord does not lead you toward. Lacking direction from the Lord or invitation from her, I would recommend reticence. Pray for her, and gently rebuke her errors when she does them. The rebuke will cause her either to evaluate herself (if she is wise) or leave fellowship with you. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Terry wrote: I have trouble understanding this too, David. Why did God choose to love Jacob? I can see His love for Abraham. Abe never questioned God, never took advantage of others, never hesitated to follow directions, but Jacob promised to tithe IF. He conned his brother, took advantage of his father-in-law, and lied to his father. The only thing that I like about seeing Jacob being blessed is that it shows how merciful God is. Tell me what you see to admire in this man. What I admire about Jacob is his ability to persevere. Keep in mind that God created Jacob the way he was. He does not choose to love us because of how we are; rather, he chooses to love us and then creates us the way he wants us to be. Jacob had some faults to work out just like the rest of us, but his ability to persevere was that attribute that God praised and has called our attention toward. It is an important element of faith. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Izzy wrote: ... I'd love to cast the devil out of her! But how do I know she would want me to? Do I ask her permission (she'd never agree that she needs it.) Would she wind up worse than before? Ending up worse than before is a very important consideration. I would not recommend doing anything that the Spirit of the Lord does not lead you toward. Lacking direction from the Lord or invitation from her, I would recommend reticence. Pray for her, and gently rebuke her errors when she does them. The rebuke will cause her either to evaluate herself (if she is wise) or leave fellowship with you. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
DAVEH: Whew..!:-[ Terry Clifton wrote: It may surprise you to hear this, but they were not! Dave Hansen wrote: DAVEH: And.would they happen to be TTers? Terry Clifton wrote: I have known an awful lot of people who were sick in one way or another, but only two that I am certain were demon possessed. Terry -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:49:49 -0400 "Debbie Sawczak" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am thinkingthat aone-to-one association between demonic activity and conditions affecting certain parts ofthe brain is a mistake. Where these conditions can be adequately explained by observable physical imbalances, malfunctions, damage,or whatever, why would one ascribe them, as a category, to demons? jt: Probably because demons are the ones who carry out the curse and these types of conditions certainly can not be called a blessing whether or not we are able to observe them. Ihave no doubt thatsuch physical dysfunction or damage can be initiated by demons, but mustitbe in every case of the disorder, or even in most cases? That is, if some cases of schizophrenia are actually demonic possession or oppression, must that be typical? jt: The consistency is in that we call these conditions dis-ease and they areexactlythat causing disruption in the life of the victim and those around them. Demons can probably cause eczema andbowel cancer too. As for healings, God can heal any condition miraculously, but his doing so (no matter the words of the prayer)is not in itself evidence that the condition was caused by demons, even though the healing hasspiritual significance. jt: Eczema, bowel cancer along with everything else is included in the curse of Deut 28, there are no exceptions. When Jesus went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed of the devil I don't believe he was opposing God and getting things off people that God put on them. Hecame with one Kingdom that is supposed tooverthrow the other. I think we should not be in haste to chalk stuff up to demons, nor to conclude that a mentallyill person has been spiritually weak or negligent, has been giving footholds to the devil, or needs to repent. Itbecomes a way of blaming the individual or casting aspersions on herspiritual integrity. Blaming and pointing the fingerindicates ignorance rather than the wisdom that comes from above. However,we will receive nothing from God until we begin to see things as He sees them and call things what He calls them. He insists that we dealwith these issues His way. So long as we would rather hang on to ignorance andpride calling itGod'sblessing regardless - we've got it. But look at the cost to families and societies. In the US Medicine is huge, it's our largest business costs people a fortune with meager results, the only constancy is escalating cost. It is also a way of denying that we are intrinsically physical beings. Though not reducible to chemicals and tissue, let's face it, if the chemicals or tissue are messed up, we are disabled to just that extent, whether it is colour blindness or PMS, diabetes or dementia,arthritis or bipolar disorder. Disability limits the choices open to us. What exactly is the extent to which it does so in each case? We don't know. Not knowing, we believe the best of people. Debbie jt: We don't know unless we are the one who is disabled Debbie and the fruit of disability is never ever love, joy, and peace. Why are we too proud to reach out as like the woman with the issue of blood and "touch the hem of his garment"? Being demonized is being victimized. From: ShieldsFamily It would be impossible for anyone with Alzheimers or severe dementia to do anything like acknowledge responsibility or repent. One of our pastors is a youngish (mid 40s?) man who has Parkinsons. It doesnt affect one mentally. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Monday, August 22, 2005 7:59 AMTo: truthtalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us At Pleasant Valley they are successful when they find the spiritual root or the reason for the curse to bethere - followed bythe victim acknowleding, taking responsibility, and repenting before the Lord. Deliverance and freedom are then easy andfor something like Alzheimers they would pray for a creative miracle to restore brain tissue. I don't know that they pray for these as yet though becausewhen I was there they were still doing research on Parkinson's, Alzheimers etc. A cousin of my husband just died from a stem cell disorder which is a lot likethese two and is called Supra Nuclear Palsy - have you heard of it Izzy? From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Izzy wrote: Would you expect such success in casting out demons in cases of Alzheimer's, where there is atrophied brain tissue? I've
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
I like your humor DaveH :) On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:31:37 -0700 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think you made a typo there, Judy. Were you implying they are ingrates?. :-D Judy Taylor wrote: I am wondering about your definition of "intelligent" JD because inthe very recent past I can recallyour wearing out (to the point of throwing up their hands) - Izzy, DavidM, and Kevin for a start - all of whom I would consider intelligent and very willing to engate in intelligent conversation. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
I think you made a typo there, Judy. Were you implying they are ingrates?. :-D Judy Taylor wrote: I am wondering about your definition of "intelligent" JD because inthe very recent past I can recallyour wearing out (to the point of throwing up their hands) - Izzy, DavidM, and Kevin for a start - all of whom I would consider intelligent and very willing to engate in intelligent conversation. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Well said, Debbie, and I agree with you with the possible exception of your last line. To believe the best may be as big a mistake as to believe the worst. When you do not know, the best thing to say, I would think, is that you do not know. I have known an awful lot of people who were sick in one way or another, but only two that I am certain were demon possessed. Terry Debbie Sawczak wrote: I am thinkingthat aone-to-one association between demonic activity and conditions affecting certain parts ofthe brain is a mistake. Where these conditions can be adequately explained by observable physical imbalances, malfunctions, damage,or whatever, why would one ascribe them, as a category, to demons? Ihave no doubt thatsuch physical dysfunction or damage can be initiated by demons, but mustitbe in every case of the disorder, or even in most cases? That is, if some cases of schizophrenia are actually demonic possession or oppression, must that be typical? Demons can probably cause eczema andbowel cancer too. As for healings, God can heal any condition miraculously, but his doing so (no matter the words of the prayer)is not in itself evidence that the condition was caused by demons, even though the healing hasspiritual significance. I think we should not be in haste to chalk stuff up to demons, nor to conclude that a mentallyill person has been spiritually weak or negligent, has been giving footholds to the devil, or needs to repent. Itbecomes a way of blaming the individual or casting aspersions on herspiritual integrity. It is also a way of denying that we are intrinsically physical beings. Though not reducible to chemicals and tissue, let's face it, if the chemicals or tissue are messed up, we are disabled to just that extent, whether it is colour blindness or PMS, diabetes or dementia,arthritis or bipolar disorder. Disability limits the choices open to us. What exactly is the extent to which it does so in each case? We don't know. Not knowing, we believe the best of people. Debbie
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Terry/Debbie: I don't understand why ppl are so hung up on "possession" Is the "exorcist" movie responsible for this? It is not the language of scripture. However, the fact that we are all under the influence of them to varying degrees is a scriptural fact and it is for our freedom that Christ became a sacrifice for sin. jt On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 07:21:37 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well said, Debbie, and I agree with you with the possible exception of your last line. To believe the best may be as big a mistake as to believe the worst. When you do not know, the best thing to say, I would think, is that you do not know. I have known an awful lot of people who were sick in one way or another, but only two that I am certain were demon possessed.TerryDebbie Sawczak wrote: I am thinkingthat aone-to-one association between demonic activity and conditions affecting certain parts ofthe brain is a mistake. Where these conditions can be adequately explained by observable physical imbalances, malfunctions, damage,or whatever, why would one ascribe them, as a category, to demons? Ihave no doubt thatsuch physical dysfunction or damage can be initiated by demons, but mustitbe in every case of the disorder, or even in most cases? That is, if some cases of schizophrenia are actually demonic possession or oppression, must that be typical? Demons can probably cause eczema andbowel cancer too. As for healings, God can heal any condition miraculously, but his doing so (no matter the words of the prayer)is not in itself evidence that the condition was caused by demons, even though the healing hasspiritual significance. I think we should not be in haste to chalk stuff up to demons, nor to conclude that a mentallyill person has been spiritually weak or negligent, has been giving footholds to the devil, or needs to repent. Itbecomes a way of blaming the individual or casting aspersions on herspiritual integrity. It is also a way of denying that we are intrinsically physical beings. Though not reducible to chemicals and tissue, let's face it, if the chemicals or tissue are messed up, we are disabled to just that extent, whether it is colour blindness or PMS, diabetes or dementia,arthritis or bipolar disorder. Disability limits the choices open to us. What exactly is the extent to which it does so in each case? We don't know. Not knowing, we believe the best of people. Debbie
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Can't offer an answer, Judy. Never saw the movie and do not often think about demons or possession. Terry Judy Taylor wrote: Terry/Debbie: I don't understand why ppl are so hung up on "possession" Is the "exorcist" movie responsible for this? It is not the language of scripture. However, the fact that we are all under the influence of them to varying degrees is a scriptural fact and it is for our freedom that Christ became a sacrifice for sin. jt
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Same here, on both counts. (Maybe I should think about it more often?) Debbie - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 8:56 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Can't offer an answer, Judy. Never saw the movie and do not often think about demons or possession.TerryJudy Taylor wrote: Terry/Debbie: I don't understand why ppl are so hung up on "possession" Is the "exorcist" movie responsible for this? It is not the language of scripture. However, the fact that we are all under the influence of them to varying degrees is a scriptural fact and it is for our freedom that Christ became a sacrifice for sin. jt
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
the problems by treating the symptoms, not by curing the problem. The term chemical imbalance is used flippantly and without direct knowledge. Therefore, in most or perhaps even all cases, I believe that demonic activity is involved. I certainly agree with you that when we don't know then we should not make assumptions, but I don't think that thinking the best of someone is dismissing the idea that they might be under spiritual attack by evil spirits. All of us are attacked by evil spirits. Even Jesus was. Just because we recognize demonic activity does not mean that we are thinking bad about the person. Please reconsider your last sentence. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Debbie Sawczak To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 12:49 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us I am thinking that a one-to-one association between demonic activity and conditions affecting certain parts of the brain is a mistake. Where these conditions can be adequately explained by observable physical imbalances, malfunctions, damage, or whatever, why would one ascribe them, as a category, to demons? I have no doubt that such physical dysfunction or damage can be initiated by demons, but must it be in every case of the disorder, or even in most cases? That is, if some cases of schizophrenia are actually demonic possession or oppression, must that be typical? Demons can probably cause eczema and bowel cancer too. As for healings, God can heal any condition miraculously, but his doing so (no matter the words of the prayer) is not in itself evidence that the condition was caused by demons, even though the healing has spiritual significance. I think we should not be in haste to chalk stuff up to demons, nor to conclude that a mentally ill person has been spiritually weak or negligent, has been giving footholds to the devil, or needs to repent. It becomes a way of blaming the individual or casting aspersions on her spiritual integrity. It is also a way of denying that we are intrinsically physical beings. Though not reducible to chemicals and tissue, let's face it, if the chemicals or tissue are messed up, we are disabled to just that extent, whether it is colour blindness or PMS, diabetes or dementia, arthritis or bipolar disorder. Disability limits the choices open to us. What exactly is the extent to which it does so in each case? We don't know. Not knowing, we believe the best of people. Debbie -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
myth
("shouldn't you..have put out of your fellowship the man who did this?"
is not
advice)
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 02:59:12 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
[the Ap Paul]counselled turning the man
over to Satan..
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
myth('we'
meaning youand jt fusing demonology/exorcism withcounseling
psychobabblewould bethe deplorable proof--(her) 'Paul as witch
doctor who used Satan to heal incest'orthodoxyreveals theroad
her brand dualismis traveling tolay itsmental overlay on the
bible/church come hell or high water--are you defending
her?)
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:52:05 -0400 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
we have a tendency to underestimate the role of evil
spirits.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
DAVEH: And.would they happen to be TTers? Terry Clifton wrote: I have known an awful lot of people who were sick in one way or another, but only two that I am certain were demon possessed. Terry -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
JD wrote: I think one man was a little too concerned for the here and now and the other a selfish lying jerk. Does either of these descriptions sound like love to you? Does it sound like love? No, it sounds like maybe you hate both Jacob and Esau, but you like Esau a little bit better than you like Jacob. What is strange is that you do not realize how different you approach Jacob than God did. God loved Jacob. God renamed Jacob to Israel, meaning, prince with God or prevailed with God. His name became the name of the nation of God's chosen people, a nation forever hated by the enemies of God. I think the very characteristics of Jacob that you hate are appreciated and loved by God. You think the lesson is that God can use anyone? Why then is Esau rejected and hated by God? I think you have missed the main lesson to be learned from the story of Jacob and Esau. Maybe you have to be a street preacher to see it. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:12:30 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
myth('we'
meaning youand jt fusing demonology/exorcism withcounseling
psychobabblewould bethe deplorable proof--(her) 'Paul as witch
doctor who used Satan to heal incest'orthodoxyreveals theroad
her brand dualismis traveling tolay itsmental overlay on the
bible/church come hell or high water--are you defending
her?)
"Orthodoxy"
apparently is the brand of witchcraft youpresently adhere to along with
Dylan G.
Hate to burst your
bubble but God has always used Satan to discipline and test His people starting
with AE in the garden and ending with the scenario in Daniel 12 and
Revelation. For the errant brother in the Church at Corinth (1 Cor 5) Satan is
not healing anything; he will work that brother over until he, (like the
prodigal son in the pigpen) tires of what he has chosen and chooses to repent
from the heart and return to the fold. If you are going to criticize, you
can at least get it right. jt
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:52:05 -0400 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
we have a tendency to underestimate the role of evil
spirits.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Thank you, David, I am adding this to my meagre bank of information on the subject. You know more than I do about some of these things. There are only two other cases of bipolar disorder that I have encountered, neither of them as close to me as my father-in-law; one person wasa churchacquaintance, the other I worked in the same office with for six years. In both casestheir condition seemed to be very successfully dealt with by medication, at leastwhenever I was around them. In fact,when I think of mentally ill people I have known, they don't immediately come to mind the way my father-in-law does.But Ido get a second-hand impression that, as you say, bipolar disorder is often very hard to treat, that his case is not unusual in that respect. He seemed dopey when medicated; they did not. Just one important correction: I didn't say "if the brain is involved", I said "certain parts of the brain", by which I was trying (perhaps inaccurately) to refer to those mental illnesses or forms of brain damage that result in antisocial behaviour or a seemingimpairment ofmoral judgment. Also, aboutthe last sentence in that post:I was really addressing two separate but relatedideas. The second one was the idea thata physical condition (even a migraine) can interfere withone's freedom to some extent. I don't think I handled it well, so forget it for now. Debbie - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us I don't think anyone is saying that if the brain is involved then demons are involved, if that is what you mean by "one-to-one association." As an example, strokes cause brain damage by a easily understood organic mechanism. Oxygen is deprived from brain cells which die and cannot be replaced. The areas of the brain that die control certain known abilities, such as the ability to speak, or the ability to understand language, etc. A person affected by a stroke might be interpreted by some without such biological knowledge to be demon possessed because they stammer and cannot speak, or they cannot understand anyone speaking to them whereas before they could. In the Scriptures, however, when we examine those who were sick of the palsy, we do not see Jesus casting demons out of them. The deaf and the mute were sometimes helped by casting out devils, but not those who were sick of the palsy. In our materialistic culture, we have a tendency to underestimate the role of evil spirits. Most of us, if we are honest with ourselves, have an aversion to casting out devils. I will probably always remember the first time the Spirit of God told me to cast the devil out of a girl. I was at a Bible study in someone's home. I looked across the room at my friend, and the Spirit distinctly said to me, "Cast the devil out of her." I wrestled with this. How could I do this? What would she think? How rude I would appear. She might be offended that I would even suggest such a thing. I had dozens of reasons why I should not do it. But, it soon appeared that she was very troubled in that she could not sit in the Bible study. She went off to another room with a friend for awhile, discussing something with her, I know not what. I could not resist the Spirit any longer. I went looking for her. I told her that I needed to talk to her and asked her if she would step outside with me. You see, I was so embarassed and unsure of all this, I guess I did not want anyone else in the Bible study to see. I asked her what was going on, and if she was having any problems. She started right in on her problems, but the more she talked, the less I wanted to hear any of it. I finally interupted her and said, "The devil has messed up your mind and I just want to break his power over you right now, ok?" She nodded, and I laid my hands on her head and said in a loud voice, "You foul spirit which has wrecked this poor girl's life, I command you in the name of Jesus to come out of her right now." I spoke it as a strong rebuke, not speaking to the girl, but to the spirit within her. She immediately screamed and fell to the ground writhing like a snake. I looked around the neighborhood wondering if any neighbors were going to come out of their homes and call the police. She was delivered within minutes and the peace of God came all over her as she wept with the joy of the Lord. I tend to side with Judy's perspective on this, that spirits are much more active than most of us give them credit for. This does not mean that we must always deal with them through casting out devils. However, when they gain a stronghold over a person's life, they must be dealt with in a much different way than just praying for healing. At a Wednesday night
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
It may surprise you to hear this, but they were not! Dave Hansen wrote: DAVEH: And.would they happen to be TTers? Terry Clifton wrote: I have known an awful lot of people who were sick in one way or another, but only two that I am certain were demon possessed. Terry -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
I have trouble understanding this too, David. Why did God choose to love Jacob? I can see His love for Abraham. Abe never questioned God, never took advantage of others, never hesitated to follow directions, but Jacob promised to tithe "IF". He conned his brother, took advantage of his father-in-law, and lied to his father. The only thing that I like about seeing Jacob being blessed is that it shows how merciful God is. Tell me what you see to admire in this man. Terry David Miller wrote: JD wrote: I think one man was a little too concerned for the here and now and the other a selfish lying jerk. Does either of these descriptions sound like love to you? Does it sound like love? No, it sounds like maybe you hate both Jacob and Esau, but you like Esau a little bit better than you like Jacob. What is strange is that you do not realize how different you approach Jacob than God did. God loved Jacob. God renamed Jacob to Israel, meaning, "prince with God" or "prevailed with God." His name became the name of the nation of God's chosen people, a nation forever hated by the enemies of God. I think the very characteristics of Jacob that you hate are appreciated and loved by God. You think the lesson is that God can use anyone? Why then is Esau rejected and hated by God? I think you have missed the main lesson to be learned from the story of Jacob and Esau. Maybe you have to be a street preacher to see it. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
heyi don't mind youstrikingdualistic psychobabble fromy/our conversation/s--aIn't intowitchy orthodoxy "..this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ..While I was [on Earth], I protected[my ppl] and kept them safe by that name you gave me..My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one." here's to a better attitude--have an earful and praise God:) Would I have married her? I don't know, I suppose.She had bells in her braids and they hung to her toesBut I kept hearing my name and I had to be movin' on.I saw screws break loose, saw the devil pound tin,I saw a house in the country being torn from within.I heard my ancestors calling from the land far beyond. And them Caribbean winds still blow from Nassau to MexicoFanning the flames in the furnace of desireAnd them distant ships of liberty on them iron waves so bold and free,Bringing everything that's near to me nearer to the fire.BDylan :: Copyright © 1985 Special Rider Music On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:52:20 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Satan is not healing anything
RE: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Izzy in blue: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Debbie Sawczak Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 10:50 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us I am thinkingthat aone-to-one association between demonic activity and conditions affecting certain parts ofthe brain is a mistake. Agreed. Where these conditions can be adequately explained by observable physical imbalances, malfunctions, damage,or whatever, why would one ascribe them, as a category, to demons? Ihave no doubt thatsuch physical dysfunction or damage can be initiated by demons, but mustitbe in every case of the disorder, or even in most cases? Absolutely not IMO. That is, if some cases of schizophrenia are actually demonic possession or oppression, must that be typical? Demons can probably cause eczema andbowel cancer too. Absolutely possible IMO. As for healings, God can heal any condition miraculously, but his doing so (no matter the words of the prayer)is not in itself evidence that the condition was caused by demons, even though the healing hasspiritual significance. True IMO. I think we should not be in haste to chalk stuff up to demons, nor to conclude that a mentallyill person has been spiritually weak or negligent, has been giving footholds to the devil, or needs to repent. Itbecomes a way of blaming the individual or casting aspersions on herspiritual integrity. Agreedthat was not the intended meaning of our conversation. But it does need to be considered if one isnt sure of the source, would you agree? It is also a way of denying that we are intrinsically physical beings. Though not reducible to chemicals and tissue, let's face it, if the chemicals or tissue are messed up, we are disabled to just that extent, whether it is colour blindness or PMS, diabetes or dementia,arthritis or bipolar disorder. Disability limits the choices open to us. What exactly is the extent to which it does so in each case? We don't know. Not knowing, we believe the best of people. We cant set people free of demons if we assume there are none. Sometimes they have them and do wish to be set free. We might want to at least look into that option. But not usually Id say. Have you read psychiatrist M. Scott Pecks People of the Lie, where he describes exorcisms he has witnessed? He says evil should be a valid psychiatric diagnosis. I agree. izzy Debbie - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 5:30 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us It would be impossible for anyone with Alzheimers or severe dementia to do anything like acknowledge responsibility or repent. One of our pastors is a youngish (mid 40s?) man who has Parkinsons. It doesnt affect one mentally. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 7:59 AM To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us At Pleasant Valley they are successful when they find the spiritual root or the reason for the curse to bethere - followed bythe victim acknowleding, taking responsibility, and repenting before the Lord. Deliverance and freedom are then easy andfor something like Alzheimers they would pray for a creative miracle to restore brain tissue. I don't know that they pray for these as yet though becausewhen I was there they were still doing research on Parkinson's, Alzheimers etc. A cousin of my husband just died from a stem cell disorder which is a lot likethese two and is called Supra Nuclear Palsy - have you heard of it Izzy? From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Izzy wrote: Would you expect such success in casting out demons in cases of Alzheimer's, where there is atrophied brain tissue? I've never thought of Alzheimer's being caused by evil spirits. In Alzheimer's there is definite organic destruction of brain tissue. I suppose it could be caused by an evil spirit. I've just never thought of it that way. I've looked at it as an aging process gone awry, and would categorize it more with stroke victims than bipolar / schizophrenia. Obviously, my faith might tend to fall short in this scenario due to my lack of knowledge. I would approach this more as a healing situation than a need for deliverance, but I'm teachable if this is not the case. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail
RE: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Agreed; all disease is part of the curse that has been laid on this fallen world. However, not all are indications, necessarily, of demonic activity I believe. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor jt: Eczema, bowel cancer along with everything else is included in the curse of Deut 28, there are no exceptions.
RE: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
David, I loved your stories. I have absolutely no problem with casting out devils when it should be done. I simply am unsure of when that is! For example, this friend of a new friend of mine buddies around with a woman that is on lithium for a dx of bipolar, and I don't like being around her. She is always looking for an argument, challenging me, and being pretty much a downer. Yet she wants some kind of fellowship with me, too, I think. She told me she has twice spoken in tongues and was very joyful when she did. She of course says she is a Christian. She says she converted to RCC when she married her RCC husband, and she has been visiting our church with her friend (which is how I met her.) I don't think she is walking in the Spirit at all. She also thinks it's ridiculous to see a demon behind every tree (her words). I'd love to cast the devil out of her! But how do I know she would want me to? Do I ask her permission (she'd never agree that she needs it.) Would she wind up worse than before? izzy -Original Message- As for bipolar disorder / schizophrenia, nobody in medical science understands what it is or how to treat it. Treatment is always masking the symptoms, never is it a cure. Drugs like Haldol, Lithium, etc. control the problems by treating the symptoms, not by curing the problem. The term chemical imbalance is used flippantly and without direct knowledge. Therefore, in most or perhaps even all cases, I believe that demonic activity is involved. I certainly agree with you that when we don't know then we should not make assumptions, but I don't think that thinking the best of someone is dismissing the idea that they might be under spiritual attack by evil spirits. All of us are attacked by evil spirits. Even Jesus was. Just because we recognize demonic activity does not mean that we are thinking bad about the person. Please reconsider your last sentence. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
May I suggest that II Co 2:5-11 has Paul saying "enough is enough" concerning this family outcast. It could be anybody, of course, but there is no reason to suppose that he speaks of other than the man in I Co 5. JD-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:28:22 -0600Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us clearlythey eventually evicted him--that's all they did, all that Paul meant/expected them to do until the dudegot the message about sin and pride ftr, women using this info/passage to incorporate Satan into their current church counseling is blatantfalse teaching, like witchiness i know i'm attacking your 'expertise'jt so you're on the defensive, but if you wanna see how ridiculous you can get, topthis gem: witches[exclude] Satan; they ..don't even believe there is a devil. On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:04:09 -0400 Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com writes: Read it again Gary; Paul told them to turn him over to who?? And no witches would not include Satan; they are nature worshippers who don't even believe there is a devil. ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
What do you call those in Romans 1 who were holding the
truth in unrighteousness and
who God gave over to a reprobate mind to act in ways
that are filthy and unclean? These
ppl once had the truth. Also those being led away
by their own lusts must have at one time
been in a place they could be led away from. How
demonized must theybe to meet
your standard JD? Then we should ask ourselves if
your standard is the same as Gods.
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:07:01 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
James might tell us that they are led away BY THEIR OWN
LUSTS.
Keep in mind that I am not denying the existence of demons. I
just do not believe
that a Christian can be demon possessed. The example you
give, below, does not
describe a disciple. JD
From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comAnd what about
those who say they are Christian givingHim lip service but whose hearts
are far
from Him and who deny Him by their very actions
and/or lifestyle?
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:29:05 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
I do not make much of the silence of the scripture in terms of
dogma. My reference to the absence of a demonic Christian is partnered with a number of
biblical references i.e. the binding of the strong man.
I would simply thing the answer to the last question in your post to
"yes - if we are not talking about rejection of the
Lord." -Original Message-From:
Charles Perry Locke cpl2602@hotmail.comTo:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 06:23:23
-0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
I happen to agree with
you, John, but absence of an example in the Bible does not prove it. In your
statement, the question might be can a Christian not have his mind set on
the Spirit and still be a Christian.From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of usDate: Sun, 21
Aug 2005 01:37:47 -0400Christian's cannot have
demons, Linda. Don't listen to me on this. Just go to your bible and try
to find one who did not there. As long as the mind
is set on the Spirit to any degree, it can't happen. It didn't even
happen in the OTJd-Original
Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: truthtalk@mail.innglory.orgSent:
Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:14:19 -0400Subject: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin
- and the rest of
usFrom:
"ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]You
are asking the wrong question, as I wonder about these things
myselffrom time to time. Can a true Believer have a demon? Be
"oppress ed"? Bepossessed? What's the difference??? I'd like
to hear other opinions. izzyjt: Yes, Yes, and No. We
need to understand that there are two kingd om'sinvolved here and the Christian is in the
process of transferring from one tothe other. We are all
oppressed from time to time and God allows the enemyto test
us. Years ago I read a book called "Blumhardt's battle" about a
Germanpastor with a severely demonized parishoner. He spent many hours
prayingwith her and declaring the victory of Chr ist until she
was entirely free. jtFrom: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Are
all illnesses "demonic" in your opinion -- whether physical or mental
ora combination of both? Martin Luther was a textbook
bi-polar. Do you thinkthat precluded him
from being a "Christian," as in a tru e
believer?Just curious what you think,
BillFrom: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that
alot. By the way, the enem ies in the land
comment leads me to ask if anyoneknows what
is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled
"Bi-polar"--up one day and low the next, and seem to me
to always belooking for someone to be angry
with. They are commonly treated with
lithium.I've been around someone like that
the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian
by the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy
-Original Messag
e- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf
Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 12:00
PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
David Miller wrote: The
concept that the Holy Spirit is working to convict
believers of various sins, such as stealing, lust,
covetousness, etc. is dangerous.
Judy wrote: Why do you see
this as dangerous David? Because
people confuse the voice of the Spirit with their own inner ;
convictions. Furthermore, they misinterpret the work of
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
I would like to see the basis in scripture for your belief that Judas was repentant unto death JD. God responds to genuine repentance; if this had happened Judas would have been freed from that murderous spirit of death that caused him to take his own life in a potter's field. So help me here JD. On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:52:59 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was wrong on the covenant people thingy -- maybe you are right on this one as well -- scripture please. I missed it. I personally believe that Judas was repentant unto death. he might have been controlled for a while -- but, again, I missed the passage that teaches such. JDFrom: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com A disciple who died demon possessed - proving thatit can be done JD On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:30:45 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, he certainly was a disciple. Jd. From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] Was Judas a Christian IYO? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Christian's cannot have demons, Linda. Don't listen to me on this. Just go to your bible and try to find one who did not there. As long as the mind is set on the Spirit to any degree, it can't happen. It didn't even happen in the OT Jd From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comFrom: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] You are asking the wrong question, as I wonder about these things myselffrom time to time. Can a true Believer have a demon? Be "oppressed"? Bepossessed? What's the difference??? I'd like to hear other opinions. izzy jt: Yes, Yes, and No. We need to understand that there are two kingdom's involved here and the Christian is in the process of transferring from one to the other. We are all oppressed from time to time and God allows the enemy to test us. Years ago I read a book called "Blumhardt's battle" about a German pastor with a severely demonized parishoner. He spent many hours praying with her and declaring the victory of Christ until she was entirely free. jt From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Are all illnesses "demonic" in your opinion -- whether physical or mental ora combination of both? Martin Luther was a textbook bi-polar. Do you thinkthat precluded him from being a "Christian," as in a true believer? Just curious what you think, Bill From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that alot. By the way, the enemies in the land comment leads me to ask if anyoneknows what is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled "Bi-polar"--up one day and low the next, and seem to me to always belooking for someone to be angry with. They are commonly treated with lithium.I've been around someone like that the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, Augu st 20, 2005 12:00 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us David Miller wrote: The concept that the Holy Spirit is working to convict believers of various sins, such as stealing, lust, covetousness, etc. is dangerous. Judy wrote: Why do you see this as dangerous David? Because people confuse the voice of the Spirit with their own inner convictions. Furthermore, they misinterpret the work of the Holy Spirit, and therefore ascribe works to him which are not his. This leads toerror. Judy wrote: Being conformed to th e "image of Christ" does not happen overnight. It is a process, just as salvation itself is a process of past, present, future. It depends which image of Christ you are talking about. A re you talking about him in his now glorified state? You bet that is a process. Are you talking about Christ as an infant lying in a manger? No, that is not a process. That is an event called being born again. Judy wrote: An object lesson is given us in scripture ... when after Israel celebrated the passover and God led them supernaturally to the promised land. They were instructed to go in and ta ke the land which He would give to them little by little. He did not clear the land all at one time because they would not be strong enough to hold it. (Exodus 23:29
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
John 17:12 Those you gave me I have kept, and none of them is lost except the son of perdition [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Speculation, my dear.If repentance is a "change of mind," then the return of the money is clearly a change of mind. The suicide could very well have been an extention of that change of heart Now, I am not saying that he was ultimately saved. I just think that we need to be careful with our doctrine concerning Judas. And we do have a doctrine concerning the man. If that didache includes the notion that He had no choice in the betrayal; if we think that he was selected (emphasis on "selected") from the beginning to be the player that he was and that this betrayal extended from a thorough going inward wickedness, well, I do not agree with that. JD -
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Izzy wrote: Would you expect such success in casting out demons in cases of Alzheimer's, where there is atrophied brain tissue? I've never thought of Alzheimer's being caused by evil spirits. In Alzheimer's there is definite organic destruction of brain tissue. I suppose it could be caused by an evil spirit. I've just never thought of it that way. I've looked at it as an aging process gone awry, and would categorize it more with stroke victims than bipolar / schizophrenia. Obviously, my faith might tend to fall short in this scenario due to my lack of knowledge. I would approach this more as a healing situation than a need for deliverance, but I'm teachable if this is not the case. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Thank you Terry On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:40:13 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John 17:12 Those you gave me I have kept, and none of them is lost except the son of perdition[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Speculation, my dear.If repentance is a "change of mind," then the return of the money is clearly a change of mind. The suicide could very well have been an extention of that change of heart Now, I am not saying that he was ultimately saved. I just think that we need to be careful with our doctrine concerning Judas. And we do have a doctrine concerning the man. If that didache includes the notion that He had no choice in the betrayal; if we think that he was selected (emphasis on "selected") from the beginning to be the player that he was and that this betrayal extended from a thorough going inward wickedness, well, I do not agree with that. JD-
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think
about that alot. By the
way, the enemies in the land comment leads me to ask if
anyoneknows what is the underlying problem with people
who are commonly labeled "Bi-polar"--up one day
and low the next, and seem to me to always belooking for
someone to be angry with. They are commonly treated
with lithium.I've been around someone like
t hat the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by
the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy
-Original Me ssage- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, Augu st 20, 2005 12:00 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re:
[TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us David Miller
wrote: The concept that the Holy Spirit is working to
convict believers of various si ns, such as stealing,
lust, covetousness, etc. is dangerous.
Judy wrote: Why do you see this as dangerous
David? Because people confuse the voice
of the Spirit with their own inner convicti /SPANons.
Furthermore, they misinterpret the work of the Holy Spirit,
and therefore ascribe works to him which are not his. This leads
toerror. Judy wrote: Being conformed to
the "image of Christ" does not happen overnight. It
is a process, just as salvation itself is a process of
past, present, future. It depends which
image of Christ you are talking abo ut. Are you
talking about him in his now glorified
state? You bet that is a process. Are you
talking about Christ as an infant lying in a
manger ? No, that is not a process. That is an event
called being born again. Judy wrote: An
object lesson is given us in scripture ... when after
Israel celebrated the passover and God
led them supernaturally to the promised land. They were instructed to go in and take
the land which He would give to them little by little. He
did not clear the land all at one time because they would not be strong
enough to hold it. (Exodus 23:29,30) Good object lesson,
but look at it closely. They
were no longer slaves in Egypt at this point. Once they crossed that Red Sea and the
waters killed the Egyptians
that were pursuing them, th ey were sa ved. They had
deliverance from bondage to Egypt, which represents our deliverance
fromthe bondage of sin to this world system. What they lacked was
possessing the promised land, the kingdom of God. This is where faith comes in, and
this is where the process of
growth is important. We are immediately delivered,
but love still is perfected. I may not
sin, but that does not mean that I cannot love
better. Yesterday I may have helped someone who came
looking to me for help, but today I might seek out those who need help. Yesterday, I
might have known how to lead someone toa hospital to
get help, but today I might pray for him to be
healedinstantly and thereby better help him in his
situation. Jesus at one time did no miracles, but his
obedience a nd love were perfected at that time when
hedid minister in miracles and healed the sick, and
ultimately gave his life a ransom for all, the ultimate
_expression_ of love which he did when he was more than 33 years
old, not when he was 5 years old Judy wrote:
Likewise when we surrender our lives to Christ we also
have enemies on the land (our heart) ... You
have the wrong analogy here, Judy. The enemies of our own heart
were when we were in Egypt, or the unbelief when God
tells us to possess his kingdom and we say such is
impossible. The enemies in the land, the Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the
Kadmonites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and BRthe Girgashites, and the Jebusites... these enemies represent
not defects ofour own heart, but enemies in the air,
principalities and powers and rulers of darkness and spiritual
wickedness in high places which inspire people toact
contrary to us and to mock us and to hate us and kill us
. Judy wrote: Those of us who are honest
will admit that we ; were walking in most of Galatians 5:19,21 if not
all. "WERE" is the proper tense. Why do you try
and resurrect it to present tense? Judy
wrote: That the land of our heart is inhabited by some
enemies is evident by what comes out of our mo
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Speculation, my dear.If repentance is a "change of mind," then the return of the money is clearly a change of mind. The suicide could very well have been an extention of that change of heart Now, I am not saying that he was ultimately saved. I just think that we need to be careful with our doctrine concerning Judas. And we do have a doctrine concerning the man. If that didache includes the notion that He had no choice in the betrayal; if we think that he was selected (emphasis on "selected") from the beginning to be the player that he was and that this betrayal extended from a thorough going inward wickedness, well, I do not agree with that. JD-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:49:09 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us I would like to see the basis in scripture for your belief that Judas was repentant unto death JD. God responds to genuine repentance; if this had happened Judas would have been freed from that murderous spirit of death that caused him to take his own life in a potter's field. So help me here JD. On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:52:59 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was wrong on the covenant people thingy -- maybe you are right on this one as well -- scripture please. I missed it. I personally believe that Judas was repentant unto death. he might have been controlled for a while -- but, again, I missed the passage that teaches such. JDFrom: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com A disciple who died demon possessed - proving thatit can be done JD On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:30:45 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, he certainly was a disciple. Jd. From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] Was Judas a Christian IYO? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Christian's cannot have demons, Linda. Don't listen to me on this. Just go to your bible and try to find one who did not there. As long as the mind is set on the Spirit to any degree, it can't happen. It didn't even happen in the OT Jd From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comFrom: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] You are asking the wrong question, as I wonder about these things myselffrom time to time. Can a true Believer have a demon? Be "oppressed"? Bepossessed? What's the difference??? I'd like to hear other opinions. izzy jt: Yes, Yes, and No. We need to understand that there are two kingdom's involved here and the Christian is in the process of transferring from one to the other. We are all oppressed from time to time and God allows the enemy to test us. Years ago I read a book called "Blumhardt's battle" about a German pastor with a severely demonized parishoner. He spent many hours praying with her and declaring the victory of Christ until she was entirely free. jt From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Are all illnesses "demonic" in your opinion -- whether physical or mental ora combination of both? Martin Luther was a textbook bi-polar. Do you thinkthat precluded him from being a "Christian," as in a true believer? Just curious what you think, Bill From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that alot. By the way, the enemies in the land comment leads me to ask if anyoneknows what is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled "Bi-polar"--up one day and low the next, and seem to me to always belooking for someone to be angry with. They are commonly treated with lithium.I've been around someone like that the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, Augu st 20, 2005 12:00 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us David Miller wrote: The concept that the Holy Spirit is working to convict believers of various sins, such as stealing, lust, covetousness, etc. is dangerous. Judy wrote: Why do you see this as dangerous David? Because people confuse the voice of the Spirit with their own inner convictions. Furthermore, they misinterpret the work of the Holy Spirit, and therefore ascribe works to him which are not his. This leads toerror. Judy wrote: Being confo rmed to th e "image of Christ" does not happen overnight. It is a process, just as salvation itself is a process of past, present, future. It depends which image of Christ you are talking about. A re you talking about him in his now glorified state? You bet that is a process. Are you talking about Christ as an infant lying in a manger? No, that is not a process. That is an event called being born again. Judy wrote: An object lesson is given us in scripture
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Beginning with verse 18, everywhere in this passage, Judy, Paul is presenting a circumstance that is of one's own doing AND, in some ways, common to all of us (R 2:1). That inward "pull" of God is gone ("God gave them up"to their own influences). A person who is truly "demon possessed" is one who requires an exorcist.Romans chapters 1-7 is all about man's inhumanity to himself and God's gracious intervention. Demon possession is nowhere implied (IMO).
Jd -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:03:32 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
What do you call those in Romans 1 who were holding the truth in unrighteousness and
who God gave over to a reprobate mind to act in ways that are filthy and unclean? These
ppl once had the truth. Also those being led away by their own lusts must have at one time
been in a place they could be led away from. How demonized must theybe to meet
your standard JD? Then we should ask ourselves if your standard is the same as Gods.
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:07:01 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
James might tell us that they are led away BY THEIR OWN LUSTS.
Keep in mind that I am not denying the existence of demons. I just do not believe
that a Christian can be demon possessed. The example you give, below, does not
describe a disciple. JD
From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comAnd what about those who say they are Christian givingHim lip service but whose hearts are far
from Him and who deny Him by their very actions and/or lifestyle?
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:29:05 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I do not make much of the silence of the scripture in terms of dogma. My reference to the absence of a demonic Christian is partnered with a number of biblical references i.e. the binding of the strong man.
I would simply thing the answer to the last question in your post to "yes - if we are not talking about rejection of the Lord." -Original Message-From: Charles Perry Locke cpl2602@hotmail.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 06:23:23 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
I happen to agree with you, John, but absence of an example in the Bible does not prove it. In your statement, the question might be can a Christian not have his mind set on the Spirit and still be a Christian.From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of usDate: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:37:47 -0400Christian's cannot have demons, Linda. Don't listen to me on this. Just go to your bible and try to find one who did not there. As long as the mind is set on the Spirit to any degree, it can't happen. It didn't even happen in the OT&
gt;Jd-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: truthtalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:14:19 -0400Subject: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of usFrom: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]You are asking the wrong question, as I wonder about these things myselffrom time to time. Can a true Believer have a demon? Be "oppress ed"? Bepossessed? What's the difference??? I'd like to hear other opinions. izzyjt: Yes, Yes, and No. We need to understand that there are two kingd om'sinvolved here and the Christian is in the process of transferring from one tothe other. We are all oppressed from time to time and God allows the enemyto test us. Years ago I read a book called "Blumhardt's battle" about a Germanpastor with a severely demonized parishoner. He spent many hours prayingwith her and declaring the victory of Chr ist until she was entirely free. jtFrom: TruthTalk-owner@mail.innglory.orgAre all illnesses "demonic" in your opinion -- whether physical or mental ora combination of both? Martin Luther was a textbook bi-polar. Do you thinkthat precluded him from being a "Christian," as in a tru e believer?Just curious what you think, BillFrom: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that alot. By the way, the enem ies in the land comment leads me to ask if anyoneknows what is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled "Bi-polar"--up one day and low the next, and seem to me to always belooking for someone to be angry with. They are commonly treated with lithium.I've been around someone like tha
t the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy -Original Messag e- From: TruthTalk-owner@mail.innglory.org [mailto:TruthTalk-owner@mail.innglory.org] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 12:00 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the res
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Lost tothecause or lost personally? Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to get Judas saved.I just don't think we know of his personal destiny. Does God look to his apparent change of heart with any pleasure?Well, I can't imagine God being disappointed in that particular circumstance. Does the cross present forgiveness to all of humanity except Judas? Wow -- that sounds a little incredible to me. JD-Original Message- From: Terry Clifton wabbits1234@earthlink.netTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:40:13 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us John 17:12 Those you gave me I have kept, and none of them is lost except the son of perdition[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Speculation, my dear.If repentance is a "change of mind," then the return of the money is clearly a change of mind. The suicide could very well have been an extention of that change of heart Now, I am not saying that he was ultimately saved. I just think that we need to be careful with our doctrine concerning Judas. And we do have a doctrine concerning the man. If that didache includes the notion that He had no choice in the betrayal; if we think that he was selected (emphasis on "selected") from the beginning to be the player that he was and that this betrayal extended from a thorough going inward wickedness, well, I do not agree with that. JD-
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
JD; I don't know where you draw the line or what the
basis is for your definition.
Is being given over to a reprobate mind along with an
unclean spirit enough or would
one have to be a raving lunatick? Jesus was an
exorcist. Casting out Satan by the finger
of God is an indication that His Kingdom is come upon
us. Healing the sick and casting
out devils is part of this JD. Where have you
been??
On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:54:07 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Beginning with verse 18, everywhere in this passage, Judy, Paul is presenting a
circumstance that is of one's own doing AND, in some ways, common to all
of us (R 2:1). That inward "pull" of God is gone ("God gave
them up"to their own influences). A person who is truly "demon possessed" is one who requires an
exorcist.Romans chapters 1-7
is all about man's inhumanity to himself
and God's gracious intervention.
Demon possession is nowhere implied (IMO).
Jd From: Judy
Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com
What do you call those in Romans 1 who were holding
the truth in unrighteousness and
who God gave over
to a reprobate mind to act in ways that are filthy and unclean?
These
ppl once had the
truth. Also those being led away by their own lusts must have at one
time
been in a place they could be led away from.
How demonized must theybe to
meet
your standard JD? Then we should ask ourselves if your standard is the
same as Gods.
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:07:01 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
James might tell us that they are led away BY THEIR OWN
LUSTS.
Keep in mind that I am not denying the existence of demons.
I just do not believe
that a Christian can be demon possessed. The example you
give, below, does not
describe a disciple. JD
From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comAnd what about
those who say they are Christian givingHim lip service but whose
hearts are far
from Him and who deny Him by their very actions
and/or lifestyle?
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:29:05 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I do not make much of the silence of the scripture in terms of
dogma. My reference to the absence of a demonic Christian is partnered with a number of biblical references
i.e. the binding of the strong man.
I would simply thing the answer to the last
question in your post to "yes - if we are not talking
about rejection of the Lord." -Original
Message-From: Charles Perry Locke cpl2602@hotmail.comTo:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 06:23:23
-0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
I happen to agree
with you, John, but absence of an example in the Bible does not prove it.
In your statement, the question might be can a Christian not have his mind
set on the Spirit and still be a Christian.From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re:
[TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of usDate: Sun, 21 Aug
2005 01:37:47 -0400Christian's cannot have
demons, Linda. Don't listen to me on this. Just go to your bible and
try to find one who did not there. As long as the
mind is set on the Spirit to any degree, it can't happen. It didn't
even happen in the OT gt;Jd-Original
Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: truthtalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 20
Aug 2005 23:14:19 -0400Subject: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and
the rest of
usFrom:
"ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]You
are asking the wrong question, as I wonder about these things myselffrom time to time.
Can a true Believer have a demon? Be
"oppress ed"? Bepossessed? What's the difference??? I'd like to hear other opinions.
izzyjt: Yes, Yes, and No. We need to understand
that there are two kingd om'sinvolved here and
the Christian is in the process of transferring from one
tothe other. We are
all oppressed from time to time and God allows the enemyto
test us. Years ago I read a book called "Blumhardt's battle" about a
Germanpastor with a severely demonized parishoner. He spent many hours
prayingwith her and
declaring the victory of Chr ist until she was entirely free. jtFrom:
TruthTalk-owner@mail.innglory.orgAre all
illnesses "demonic" in your opinion -- whether physical or mental ora combination of
both? Martin Luther was a textbook
bi-polar. Do you
thinkthat precluded him from being a "Christian," as in a
tru e believer?Just curious what you think,
BillFrom: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAI
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
JD wrote: I personally believe that Judas was repentant unto death. he might have been controlled for a while -- but, again, I missed the passage that teaches such. Acts 1:17 (17) For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. Luke 9:1-2 (1) Then he called his TWELVE disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. (2) And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. Luke 22:3 (3) THEN ENTERED SATAN INTO JUDAS surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. Acts 1:20 (20) For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. Acts 1:24-25 (24) And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, (25) That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas BY TRANSGRESSION FELL, THAT HE MIGHT GO TO HIS OWN PLACE. Revelation 21:14 (14) And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
JD wrote: Does God look to his apparent change of heart with any pleasure? Well, I can't imagine God being disappointed in that particular circumstance. Does the cross present forgiveness to all of humanity except Judas? Wow -- that sounds a little incredible to me. Was Judas better than Esau? Hebrews 12:16-17 (16) Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. (17) For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for HE FOUND NO PLACE OF REPENTANCE, THOUGH HE SOUGHT IT CAREFULLY WITH TEARS. Proverbs 28:5 (5) Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
evidence (from jt)of hysteria and cluelessness*: The man in the church at Corinth [whom theycast outto Satan]carrying on with his father's wife had a demon of lust. Casting out Satan by the finger of God is an indication that His Kingdom is come upon us. On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:20:08 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: God or god? (mosta the hysterical women on this list have *no clue which is which:) On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:46:32 -0600 "Bill Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The question is the same each day: who am I going to serve?
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
It looks to me,John, as though the last act of Judas was one of rebellion. God gives life and God takes life. When we play God we have not died to self. Taking your own life is usurping God's authority. === [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lost tothecause or lost personally? Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to get Judas saved.I just don't think we know of his personal destiny. Does God look to his apparent change of heart with any pleasure?Well, I can't imagine God being disappointed in that particular circumstance. Does the cross present forgiveness to all of humanity except Judas? Wow -- that sounds a little incredible to me. JD -Original Message- From: Terry Clifton wabbits1234@earthlink.net To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:40:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us John 17:12 Those you gave me I have kept, and none of them is lost except the son of perdition [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Speculation, my dear.If repentance is a "change of mind," then the return of the money is clearly a change of mind. The suicide could very well have been an extention of that change of heart Now, I am not saying that he was ultimately saved. I just think that we need to be careful with our doctrine concerning Judas. And we do have a doctrine concerning the man. If that didache includes the notion that He had no choice in the betrayal; if we think that he was selected (emphasis on "selected") from the beginning to be the player that he was and that this betrayal extended from a thorough going inward wickedness, well, I do not agree with that. JD -
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:47:06 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: evidence (from jt)of hysteria and cluelessness*: The man in the church at Corinth [whom theycast outto Satan] carrying on with his father's wife had a demon of lust. jt: Correction Mr. Dylan - they turned him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh with the hope that his soul would eventually be saved in the day of the Lord He was not cast out to anything... Casting out jt: So what are you saying? Nothing or noone was cast out in this instance. The man was turned over to the enemy for a season. Big difference ... O wise one. On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:20:08 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: God or god? (mosta the hysterical women on this list have *no clue which is which:) On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:46:32 -0600 "Bill Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The question is the same each day: who am I going to serve?
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
As I have said before, no Christian is demon possessed. The folks in Romans 1 certainly were not Christian --- but then, they were not demon possessed, either. being led away by your own lusts is one thing; being demon possessed is another. I never fear possession by a demon. Ain't going to happen -- can't happen.
Christ's discussion about binding the strong man is a good place to start. Ask the good pastor at your church if this is talking about demon possession (Romans) or the folks at BSF. See what Dake's has to say.
Anyway -- no one I know will ever be demon possessed. But you keep looking out for you.
Jd
-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 10:04:42 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
JD; I don't know where you draw the line or what the basis is for your definition.
Is being given over to a reprobate mind along with an unclean spirit enough or would
one have to be a raving lunatick? Jesus was an exorcist. Casting out Satan by the finger
of God is an indication that His Kingdom is come upon us. Healing the sick and casting
out devils is part of this JD. Where have you been??
On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:54:07 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Beginning with verse 18, everywhere in this passage, Judy, Paul is presenting a circumstance that is of one's own doing AND, in some ways, common to all of us (R 2:1). That inward "pull" of God is gone ("God gave them up"to their own influences). A person who is truly "demon possessed" is one who requires an exorcist.Romans chapters 1-7 is all about man's inhumanity to himself and God's gracious intervention. Demon possession is nowhere implied (IMO).
Jd From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com
What do you call those in Romans 1 who were holding the truth in unrighteousness and
who God gave over to a reprobate mind to act in ways that are filthy and unclean? These
ppl once had the truth. Also those being led away by their own lusts must have at one time
been in a place they could be led away from. How demonized must theybe to meet
your standard JD? Then we should ask ourselves if your standard is the same as Gods.
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:07:01 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
James might tell us that they are led away BY THEIR OWN LUSTS.
Keep in mind that I am not denying the existence of demons. I just do not believe
that a Christian can be demon possessed. The example you give, below, does not
describe a disciple. JD
From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comAnd what about those who say they are Christian givingHim lip service but whose hearts are far
from Him and who deny Him by their very actions and/or lifestyle?
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:29:05 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I do not make much of the silence of the scripture in terms of dogma. My reference to the absence of a demonic Christian is partnered with a number of biblical references i.e. the binding of the strong man.
I would simply thing the answer to the last question in your post to "yes - if we are not talking about rejection of the Lord." -Original Message-From: Charles Perry Locke cpl2602@hotmail.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 06:23:23 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
I happen to agree with you, John, but absence of an example in the Bible does not prove it. In your statement, the question might be can a Christian not have his mind set on the Spirit and still be a Christian.From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of usDate: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:37:47 -0400Christian's cannot have demons, Linda. Don't listen to me on this. Just go to your bible and try to find one who did not there. As long as the mind is set on the Spirit to any degree, it can't happen. It didn't even happen in the OT
gt;Jd-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: truthtalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:14:19 -0400Subject: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of usFrom: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]You are asking the wrong question, as I wonder about these things myselffrom time to time. Can a true Believer have
a demon? Be "oppress ed"? Bepossessed? What's the difference??? I'd like to hear other opinions. izzyjt: Yes, Yes, and No. We need to understand that there are two kingd om'sinvolved here and the Christian is in the process of transferring from one tothe other. We are all oppressed from time to time and God allows the enemyto test us. Years ago I read a book called "Blumhardt's battle" about a Germanpastor with a severely demonized parishoner. He spent many hours prayingwith her and declaring the victory of Chr ist until she was entirely fre
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
JD wrote: I personally believe that Judas was repentant unto death. he might have been controlled for a while -- but, again, I missed the passage that teaches such. Acts 1:17 (17) For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. Luke 9:1-2 (1) Then he called his TWELVE disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. (2) And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. Luke 22:3 (3) THEN ENTERED SATAN INTO JUDAS surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. Whether this speaks of a demon or of Judas' decision to serve his own pleasures, I know not. What he did was evil. Did a demon force him to do it or did he make the decision on his own? Acts 1:20 (20) For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. Acts 1:24-25 (24) And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, (25) That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas BY TRANSGRESSION FELL, THAT HE MIGHT GO TO HIS OWN PLACE.More than likely, Peter is the one who made this statement and the others agreed. Is this statement an opinion of the assembly in the upper room or is it's source revelatory? I do not know. And so the point is this - we do not know the destiny of any individual. God through Christ is the judge. Because we cannot know the heart of man, we cannot judge man. I am not arguing that Judas was saved -- only that we do not know the end of the matter for sure. Revelation 21:14 (14) And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
I think Alzheimer's is purely organic as well, but it seems more prevalent in those who abused alcohol (or at least some form of senile dementia). izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 7:46 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Izzy wrote: Would you expect such success in casting out demons in cases of Alzheimer's, where there is atrophied brain tissue? I've never thought of Alzheimer's being caused by evil spirits. In Alzheimer's there is definite organic destruction of brain tissue. I suppose it could be caused by an evil spirit. I've just never thought of it that way. I've looked at it as an aging process gone awry, and would categorize it more with stroke victims than bipolar / schizophrenia. Obviously, my faith might tend to fall short in this scenario due to my lack of knowledge. I would approach this more as a healing situation than a need for deliverance, but I'm teachable if this is not the case. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
You might not know, John, but I know. Peace be with you.David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 5:11 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us JD wrote: I personally believe that Judas was repentant unto death. he might have been controlled for a while -- but, again, I missed the passage that teaches such. Acts 1:17 (17) For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. Luke 9:1-2 (1) Then he called his TWELVE disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. (2) And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. Luke 22:3 (3) THEN ENTERED SATAN INTO JUDAS surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. Whether this speaks of a demon or of Judas' decision to serve his own pleasures, I know not. What he did was evil. Did a demon force him to do it or did he make the decision on his own? Acts 1:20 (20) For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. Acts 1:24-25 (24) And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, (25) That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas BY TRANSGRESSION FELL, THAT HE MIGHT GO TO HIS OWN PLACE.More than likely, Peter is the one who made this statement and the others agreed. Is this statement an opinion of the assembly in the upper room or is it's source revelatory? I do not know. And so the point is this - we do not know the destiny of any individual. God through Christ is the judge. Because we cannot know the heart of man, we cannot judge man. I am not arguing that Judas was saved -- only that we do not know the end of the matter for sure. Revelation 21:14 (14) And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
No, I do not agree. "Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated." Profane men do not inherit the kingdom of God. Furthermore, please look at the context in which Esau is being discussed. Heb. 12:15 warns men about notfailing of the grace of God. Peace be with you.David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us I am speaking of a repentance that might effect one's destiny,not a repentance that seeks the reversal of a legal (if you will) decision. Heb. 12:17 speaks of the birthright, not Esua;s eternal destiny -- agreed? JD-Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 10:17:26 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us JD wrote: Does God look to his apparent change of heart with any pleasure? Well, I can't imagine God being disappointed in that particular circumstance. Does the cross present forgiveness to all of humanity except Judas? Wow -- that sounds a little incredible to me. Was Judas better than Esau? Hebrews 12:16-17 (16) Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. (17) For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for HE FOUND NO PLACE OF REPENTANCE, THOUGH HE SOUGHT IT CAREFULLY WITH TEARS. Proverbs 28:5 (5) Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
No doubt JD-Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:00:31 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us You might not know, John, but I know. Peace be with you.David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 5:11 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us JD wrote: I personally believe that Judas was repentant unto death. he might have been controlled for a while -- but, again, I missed the passage that teaches such. Acts 1:17 (17) For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. Luke 9:1-2 (1) Then he called his TWELVE disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. (2) And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. Luke 22:3 (3) THEN ENTERED SATAN INTO JUDAS surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. Whether this speaks of a demon or of Judas' decision to serve his own pleasures, I know not. What he did was evil. Did a demon force him to do it or did he make the decision on his own? Acts 1:20 (20) For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. Acts 1:24-25 (24) And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, (25) That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas BY TRANSGRESSION FELL, THAT HE MIGHT GO TO HIS OWN PLACE.More than likely, Peter is the one who made this statement and the others agreed. Is this statement an opinion of the assembly in the upper room or is it's source revelatory? I do not know. And so the point is this - we do not know the destiny of any individual. God through Christ is the judge. Because we cannot know the heart of man, we cannot judge man. I am not arguing that Judas was saved -- only that we do not know the end of the matter for sure. Revelation 21:14 (14) And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
I believe "the blessing" in v 17 refers to the birthright.I do not believe Jacob and Esau is about spiritual values or destinies. I mean - Jacob and his mother used lies, cunning and deceit to steal the birthright from Esau. Jd-Original Message- From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:05:27 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us No, I do not agree. "Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated." Profane men do not inherit the kingdom of God. Furthermore, please look at the context in which Esau is being discussed. Heb. 12:15 warns men about notfailing of the grace of God. Peace be with you.David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us I am speaking of a repentance that might effect one's destiny,not a repentance that seeks the reversal of a legal (if you will) decision. Heb. 12:17 speaks of the birthright, not Esua;s eternal destiny -- agreed? JD-Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 10:17:26 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us JD wrote: Does God look to his apparent change of heart with any pleasure? Well, I can't imagine God being disappointed in that particular circumstance. Does the cross present forgiveness to all of humanity except Judas? Wow -- that sounds a little incredible to me. Was Judas better than Esau? Hebrews 12:16-17 (16) Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. (17) For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for HE FOUND NO PLACE OF REPENTANCE, THOUGH HE SOUGHT IT CAREFULLY WITH TEARS. Proverbs 28:5 (5) Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
They did not steal anything, but let me see if I have your perspective right. You hate Jacob [because of lies, cunning, and deceit], but you love Esau [because he wept about selling his birthright]? Peace be with you.David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 6:20 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us I believe "the blessing" in v 17 refers to the birthright.I do not believe Jacob and Esau is about spiritual values or destinies. I mean - Jacob and his mother used lies, cunning and deceit to steal the birthright from Esau. Jd
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Exactly. God loves those who love Him and those who seek Him early are the ones who find Him. So in spite of Jacob's subterfuge he followed hard after God, fighting with the angel at Bethel and refusing to be distracted. In spite of the warts he was on the right track. On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:05:27 -0400 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: No, I do not agree. "Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated." Profane men do not inherit the kingdom of God. Furthermore, please look at the context in which Esau is being discussed. Heb. 12:15 warns men about notfailing of the grace of God. Peace be with you.David Miller. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am speaking of a repentance that might effect one's destiny,not a repentance that seeks the reversal of a legal (if you will) decision. Heb. 12:17 speaks of the birthright, not Esua;s eternal destiny -- agreed? JDFrom: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD wrote: Does God look to his apparent change of heart with any pleasure? Well, I can't imagine God being disappointed in that particular circumstance. Does the cross present forgiveness to all of humanity except Judas? Wow -- that sounds a little incredible to me. Was Judas better than Esau? Hebrews 12:16-17 (16) Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. (17) For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for HE FOUND NO PLACE OF REPENTANCE, THOUGH HE SOUGHT IT CAREFULLY WITH TEARS. Proverbs 28:5 (5) Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
What a strange interpretation JD. I guess Esau shouldn't have been so upset over losing what he held in such low esteem anyway. So you think Jacob and his mother outfoxed God and that everyone makes it anyway so they are just one big happy family? On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:20:50 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I believe "the blessing" in v 17 refers to the birthright.I do not believe Jacob and Esau is about spiritual values or destinies. I mean - Jacob and his mother used lies, cunning and deceit to steal the birthright from Esau. Jd From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]No, I do not agree. "Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated." Profane men do not inherit the kingdom of God. Furthermore, please look at the context in which Esau is being discussed. Heb. 12:15 warns men about notfailing of the grace of God. Peace be with you.David Miller. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am speaking of a repentance that might effect one's destiny,not a repentance that seeks the reversal of a legal (if you will) decision. Heb. 12:17 speaks of the birthright, not Esua;s eternal destiny -- agreed? JD From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD wrote: Does God look to his apparent change of heart with any pleasure? Well, I can't imagine God being disappointed in that particular circumstance. Does the cross present forgiveness to all of humanity except Judas? Wow -- that sounds a little incredible to me. Was Judas better than Esau? Hebrews 12:16-17 (16) Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. (17) For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for HE FOUND NO PLACE OF REPENTANCE, THOUGH HE SOUGHT IT CAREFULLY WITH TEARS. Proverbs 28:5 (5) Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:54:37 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
As I have said before, no Christian is
demon possessed.
The folks in Romans 1 certainly were not Christian ---
jt: What were they? The epistle is addressed to
"all who are in Rome, beloved
of God, called to be saints" I don't know how
much clearer it can be. The Bible
is a revelation of God to His people
JD.
but then, they were not demon
possessed, either. being led away by your own
lusts is one thing; being demon possessed is
another. I never fear possession
by a demon. Ain't going to happen --
can't happen.
jt: Sure JD, right!! Every heroin addict said he
was the one who was not going
to get addicted when he took the first hit also ...
Just stick with the motivational
talk and positiveconfessions.
Christ's discussion about binding the
strong man is a good place to start.
Ask the good pastor at your church if this is talking about demon
possession
jt: I don't have to ask the pastor. I know what the
scripture is talking about JD.
(Romans) or the folks at BSF. See what Dake's has to say. Anyway -- no
one I know will ever be demon
possessed.
jt: Really JD? Are you stronger than the
strongman? What are you going to
do if these ppl don't fill their house with the right
thing and that strongman
comes back with seven of his friends? They don't
have to leave if the
person likes them you know. You'd better be
careful about making these
kinds of boasts.
But you keep looking out for you. Jd
From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com
JD; I don't know
where you draw the line or what the basis is for your definition.
Is being given over to a reprobate mind along with an unclean spirit enough or
would
one have to be a raving lunatick? Jesus was an
exorcist. Casting out Satan by the
finger
of God is an indication that His Kingdom is come upon
us. Healing the sick and casting
out devils is part of this JD. Where have you been??
On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:54:07 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
Beginning with verse 18, everywhere in this passage, Judy, Paul is presenting a
circumstance that is of one's own doing AND, in some ways, common to
all of us (R 2:1). That inward "pull" of God is gone ("God
gave them up"to their own influences). A person who is truly
"demon possessed" is one who requires an
exorcist.Romans chapters 1-7 is all about man's
inhumanity to himself and God's gracious intervention. Demon possession is
nowhere implied (IMO).
Jd From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com
What do you call those in Romans 1 who were holding
the truth in unrighteousness and
who God gave over to a reprobate mind to act in ways
that are filthy and unclean? These
ppl once had the truth. Also those being led away
by their own lusts must have at one time
been in a place they could be led away from.
How demonized must theybe to
meet
your standard JD? Then we should ask ourselves
if your standard is the same as Gods.
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:07:01 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
James might tell us that they are led away BY THEIR OWN
LUSTS.
Keep in mind that I am not denying the existence of
demons. I just do not believe
that a Christian can be demon possessed. The example you
give, below, does not
describe a disciple. JD
From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comAnd what
about those who say they are Christian givingHim lip service but
whose hearts are far
from Him and who deny Him by their very actions
and/or lifestyle?
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:29:05 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I do not make much of the silence of the scripture in terms of
dogma. My reference to the absence of a demonic Christian is partnered
with a number of biblical references i.e. the binding of the strong
man.
I would simply thing the answer to the last question in your post to "yes
- if we are not talking about rejection of the Lord."
-Original Message-From: Charles Perry
Locke cpl2602@hotmail.comTo:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 06:23:23
-0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of
us
I happen to agree
with you, John, but absence of an example in the Bible does not prove
it. In your statement, the question might be can a Christian not have
his mind set on the Spirit and still be a
Christian.From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re:
[TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of usDate: Sun, 21
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
You need to learnhow to be little more subtle, David. I believe my point was concerning the birthright and Heb. 12:17. As to Jacob's deceit and lies, there can be no doubt.After reviewing the biblical account, if the birthright and the blessing are two different things, then Jacob only manipulate his brother for the birthright. The "blessing" was quite another matter, however. and was a theft, pure and simple. There was ample inheritance for Esau and Jacob. Esau'sshare ( a thrid ofall that couldbe inherited) made him a wealthy man. The blessing was different. I believe the "blessing" was a contract between God and the bsp;patriarch of the family. The blessing was pronounced and God gave it honor and reality. Easu sold his birthright for food. Jacob stole the blessing for obvious reasons.none of them good. JD-Original Message- From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:51:45 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us They did not steal anything, but let me see if I have your perspective right. You hate Jacob [because of lies, cunning, and deceit], but you love Esau [because he wept about selling his birthright]? Peace be with you.David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 6:20 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us I believe "the blessing" in v 17 refers to the birthright.I do not believe Jacob and Esau is about spiritual values or destinies. I mean - Jacob and his mother used lies, cunning and deceit to steal the birthright from Esau. Jd
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
First, I mis-spoke. The birthright and the blessing are two different things. Secondly,in answer to your question -- no. -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:20:56 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us What a strange interpretation JD. I guess Esau shouldn't have been so upset over losing what he held in such low esteem anyway. So you think Jacob and his mother outfoxed God and that everyone makes it anyway so they are just one big happy family? On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:20:50 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I believe "the blessing" in v 17 refers to the birthright.I do not believe Jacob and Esau is about spiritual values or destinies. I mean - Jacob and his mother used lies, cunning and deceit to steal the birthright from Esau. Jd From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]No, I do not agree. "Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated." Profane men do not inherit the kingdom of God. Furthermore, please look at the context in which Esau is being discussed. Heb. 12:15 warns men about notfailing of the grace of God. Peace be with you.David Miller. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am speaking of a repentance that might effect one's destiny,not a repentance that seeks the reversal of a legal (if you will) decision. Heb. 12:17 speaks of the birthright, not Esua;s eternal destiny -- agreed? JD From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD wrote: Does God look to his apparent change of heart with any pleasure? Well, I can't imagine God being disappointed in that particular circumstance. Does the cross present forgiveness to all of humanity except Judas? Wow -- that sounds a little incredible to me. Was Judas better than Esau? Hebrews 12:16-17 (16) Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. (17) For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for HE FOUND NO PLACE OF REPENTANCE, THOUGH HE SOUGHT IT CAREFULLY WITH TEARS. Proverbs 28:5 (5) Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
The blessing belongs to the one who has the birthright. To whom did
thebirthright rightfully belong?
You never answered my question. Is your position that you hate Jacob
and love Esau? That is what it sounds like to me. For obvious
reasons, that makes your position difficult for me to accept.
The judgment of God is in favor of Jacob and contrary to Esau, no matter
which way you try to spin the facts. We should seek to understand why if
we care about understanding the wisdom of God.
Peace be with you.David Miller.
- Original Message -
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 8:38
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and
the rest of us
You need to learnhow to be little more subtle,
David.
I believe my point was concerning the birthright and Heb.
12:17.
As to Jacob's deceit and
lies, there can be no doubt.After reviewing the biblical
account, if the birthright and the blessing are two different things, then Jacob only
manipulate his brother for the
birthright. The "blessing" was
quite another matter, however. and was a theft, pure and simple. There
was ample inheritance for Esau and Jacob. Esau'sshare ( a thrid
ofall that couldbe inherited) made him a wealthy man.
The blessing was different. I believe the "blessing" was a
contract between God and then bsp;patriarch of the family.
The blessing was pronounced and God gave it honor and reality.
Easu sold his birthright for food. Jacob stole
the blessing for obvious
reasons.none of them good.
JD-Original Message- From:
David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:51:45
-0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
They did not steal anything, but let me see if I have your perspective
right. You hate Jacob [because of lies, cunning, and deceit], but you
love Esau [because he wept about selling his birthright]?
Peace be with you.David Miller.
- Original Message -
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 6:20
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin -
and the rest of us
I believe "the blessing" in v 17
refers to the birthright.I do not believe Jacob and Esau is about spiritual values or destinies. I mean - Jacob
and his mother used lies, cunning and deceit to steal the birthright from
Esau.
Jd
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
You know, Judy,I had finished a reply to this post, went back and looked at it and decided the original post (that would be your post) was simply notdeserving of a reply. All you do is snear your way through the post, wishing only tobias the discussion and nothing more. I have actually lost IQ points thinking of what I might say in reply.
If you ever want to have an intelligent discussion, count me in. I take comfort in knowing one thing for certain -- we here at TT have got to be the only ones who respect you as a person while being honest enough to tell you just how confused you are.And to think you disapprove of imagination when imagination is all you got going for you as a theologian.
JD-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:34:36 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:54:37 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
As I have said before, no Christian is demon possessed.
The folks in Romans 1 certainly were not Christian ---
jt: What were they? The epistle is addressed to "all who are in Rome, beloved
of God, called to be saints" I don't know how much clearer it can be. The Bible
is a revelation of God to His people JD.
but then, they were not demon possessed, either. being led away by your own
lusts is one thing; being demon possessed is another. I never fear possession
by a demon. Ain't going to happen -- can't happen.
jt: Sure JD, right!! Every heroin addict said he was the one who was not going
to get addicted when he took the first hit also ... Just stick with the motivational
talk and positiveconfessions.
Christ's discussion about binding the strong man is a good place to start.
Ask the good pastor at your church if this is talking about demon possession
jt: I don't have to ask the pastor. I know what the scripture is talking about JD.
(Romans) or the folks at BSF. See what Dake's has to say. Anyway -- no
one I know will ever be demon possessed.
jt: Really JD? Are you stronger than the strongman? What are you going to
do if these ppl don't fill their house with the right thing and that strongman
comes back with seven of his friends? They don't have to leave if the
person likes them you know. You'd better be careful about making these
kinds of boasts.
But you keep looking out for you. Jd
From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com
JD; I don't know where you draw the line or what the basis is for your definition.
Is being given over to a reprobate mind along with an unclean spirit enough or would
one have to be a raving lunatick? Jesus was an exorcist. Casting out Satan by the finger
of God is an indication that His Kingdom is come upon us. Healing the sick and casting
out devils is part of this JD. Where have you been??
On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:54:07 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Beginning with verse 18, everywhere in this passage, Judy, Paul is presenting a circumstance that is of one's own doing AND, in some ways, common to all of us (R 2:1). That inward "pull" of God is gone ("God gave them up"to their own influences). A person who is truly "demon possessed" is one who requires an exorcist.Romans chapters 1-7 is all about man's inhumanity to himself and God's gracious intervention. Demon possession is nowhere implied (IMO).
Jd From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com
What do you call those in Romans 1 who were holding the truth in unrighteousness and
who God gave over to a reprobate mind to act in ways that are filthy and unclean? These
ppl once had the truth. Also those being led away by their own lusts must have at one time
been in a place they could be led away from. How demonized must theybe to meet
your standard JD? Then we should ask ourselves if your standard is the same as Gods.
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:07:01 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
James might tell us that they are led away BY THEIR OWN LUSTS.
Keep in mind that I am not denying the existence of demons. I just do not believe
that a Christian can be demon possessed. The example you give, below, does not
describe a disciple. JD
From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comAnd what about those who say they are Christian givingHim lip service but whose hearts are far
from Him and who deny Him by their very actions and/or lifestyle?
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:29:05 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I do not make much of the silence of the scripture in terms of dogma. My reference to the absence of a demonic Christian is partnered with a number of biblical references i.e. the binding of the strong man.
I would simply thing the answer to the last question in your post to "yes - if we are not talking about rejection of the Lord." -Original Message-From: Charles Perry Locke cpl2602@hotmail.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 06:23:23 -0700Subject: Re: [Tru
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
The blessing belongs to the one who has the birthright. To whom did thebirthright rightfully belong? This is not what the text indicates. You never answered my question. Is your position that you hate Jacob and love Esau? That is what it sounds like to me.Love and hate have nothing to do with discussion. I think one man was a little too concerned for the here and now and the other a selfish lying jerk. Does either of these descriptions sound like love to you? For obvious reasons, that makes your position difficult for me to accept. The judgment of God is in favor of Jacob and contrary to Esau, no matter which way you try to spin the facts. We should seek to understand why if we care about understanding the wisdom of God. God does not use the best of the best, the pure, the righteous - certainly not always. Jacob got the birthright "fair and square." The "blessing" had to be stolen. Jacob had to lie big time to get this blessing. Lesson: God can use anyone to accomplish his will. JD Peace be with you.David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 8:38 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us You need to learnhow to be little more subtle, David. I believe my point was concerning the birthright and Heb. 12:17. As to Jacob's deceit and lies, there can be no doubt.After reviewing the biblical account, if the birthright and the blessing are two different things, then Jacob only manipulate his brother for the birthright. The "blessing" was quite another matter, however. and was a theft, pure and simple. There was ample inheritance for Esau and Jacob. Esau'sshare ( a thrid ofall that couldbe inhe rited) made him a wealthy man. The blessing was different. I believe the "blessing" was a contract between God and then bsp;patriarch of the family. The blessing was pronounced and God gave it honor and reality. Easu sold his birthright for food. Jacob stole the blessing for obvious reasons.none of them good. JD-Original Message- From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:51:45 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us They did not steal anything, but let me see if I have your perspective right. You hate Jacob [because of lies, cunning, and deceit], but you love Esau [because he wept about selling his birthright]? Peace be with you.David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 6:20 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us I believe "the blessing" in v 17 refers to the birthright.I do not believe Jacob and Esau is about spiritual values or destinies. I mean - Jacob and his mother used lies, cunning and deceit to steal the birthright from Esau. Jd
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
re: 'they', below,inclusive of Satan, not everyone in the Corinth church agreed (partic with Paul)on how to handlesuch behavior which is interesting NT fact about which you are clueless--in raw NT terms,the man was banishedby the majority--there ain't no fellowship betw darkness and light however, inthe kingdom you write about, apparently where nodissent is allowed, it's no wonderhysteria rules, Satan's one of the congregation--what is he, chairman of the bored? On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 12:09:56 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:47:06 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: evidence (from jt)of hysteria and cluelessness*: jt: The man in the church at Corinth [whom theycast outto Satan--G] carrying on with his father's wife had a demon of lust. jt: ..theyturned him over to Satan ..He was not cast out .. On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:20:08 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: God or god? (mosta the hysterical women on this list have *no clue which is which:) On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:46:32 -0600 "Bill Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The question is the same each day: who am I going to serve?
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
I am thinkingthat aone-to-one association between demonic activity and conditions affecting certain parts ofthe brain is a mistake. Where these conditions can be adequately explained by observable physical imbalances, malfunctions, damage,or whatever, why would one ascribe them, as a category, to demons? Ihave no doubt thatsuch physical dysfunction or damage can be initiated by demons, but mustitbe in every case of the disorder, or even in most cases? That is, if some cases of schizophrenia are actually demonic possession or oppression, must that be typical? Demons can probably cause eczema andbowel cancer too. As for healings, God can heal any condition miraculously, but his doing so (no matter the words of the prayer)is not in itself evidence that the condition was caused by demons, even though the healing hasspiritual significance. I think we should not be in haste to chalk stuff up to demons, nor to conclude that a mentallyill person has been spiritually weak or negligent, has been giving footholds to the devil, or needs to repent. Itbecomes a way of blaming the individual or casting aspersions on herspiritual integrity. It is also a way of denying that we are intrinsically physical beings. Though not reducible to chemicals and tissue, let's face it, if the chemicals or tissue are messed up, we are disabled to just that extent, whether it is colour blindness or PMS, diabetes or dementia,arthritis or bipolar disorder. Disability limits the choices open to us. What exactly is the extent to which it does so in each case? We don't know. Not knowing, we believe the best of people. Debbie - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 5:30 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us It would be impossible for anyone with Alzheimers or severe dementia to do anything like acknowledge responsibility or repent. One of our pastors is a youngish (mid 40s?) man who has Parkinsons. It doesnt affect one mentally. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Monday, August 22, 2005 7:59 AMTo: truthtalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us At Pleasant Valley they are successful when they find the spiritual root or the reason for the curse to bethere - followed bythe victim acknowleding, taking responsibility, and repenting before the Lord. Deliverance and freedom are then easy andfor something like Alzheimers they would pray for a creative miracle to restore brain tissue. I don't know that they pray for these as yet though becausewhen I was there they were still doing research on Parkinson's, Alzheimers etc. A cousin of my husband just died from a stem cell disorder which is a lot likethese two and is called Supra Nuclear Palsy - have you heard of it Izzy? From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Izzy wrote: Would you expect such success in casting out demons in cases of Alzheimer's, where there is atrophied brain tissue? I've never thought of Alzheimer's being caused by evil spirits. In Alzheimer's there is definite organic destruction of brain tissue. I suppose it could be caused by an evil spirit. I've just never thought of it that way. I've looked at it as an aging process gone awry, and would categorize it more with stroke victims than bipolar / schizophrenia. Obviously, my faith might tend to fall short in this scenario due to my lack of knowledge. I would approach this more as a healing situation than a need for deliverance, but I'm teachable if this is not the case. Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Yes. My youngest daughter has experienced two attacks diagnosedas "brief psychotic episode." We had a few within our church who thought this to be a demonic possession. I would not allow them within 15 miles of my daughter. In this particular case, their bias could have been extremely damaging to my daughter. I have not been as frightened for one of my kids as I was for Nancy. She was raised by her mother, a devout legalist who charted Nancy's every move and kept her away from sinful influences as much as possible ( no TV this, no reading that, obedience and will worship a daily theme.) It nearly destroyed my girl. Sometimesthe worst demon is our religion. JD -Original Message-From: Debbie Sawczak debbie@kest.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:49:49 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us I am thinkingthat aone-to-one association between demonic activity and conditions affecting certain parts ofthe brain is a mistake. Where these conditions can be adequately explained by observable physical imbalances, malfunctions, damage,or whatever, why would one ascribe them, as a category, to demons? Ihave no doubt thatsuch physical dysfunction or damage can be initiated by demons, but mustitbe in every case of the disorder, or even in most cases? That is, if some cases of schizophrenia are actually demonic possession or oppression, must that be typical? Demons can probably cause eczema andbowel cancer too. As for healings, God can heal any condition miraculously, but his doing so (no matter the words of the prayer)is not in itself evidence that the condition was caused by demons, even though the healing hasspiritual significance. I think we should not be in haste to chalk stuff up to demons, nor to conclude that a mentallyill person has been spiritually weak or negligent, has been giving footholds to the devil, or needs to repent. Itbecomes a way of blaming the individual or casting aspersions on herspiritual integrity. It is also a way of denying that we are intrinsically physical beings. Though not reducible to chemicals and tissue, let's face it, if the chemicals or tissue are messed up, we are disabled to just that extent, whether it is colour blindness or PMS, diabetes or dementia,arthritis or bipolar disorder. Disability limits the choices open to us. What exactly is the extent to which it does so in each case? We don't know. Not knowing, we believe the best of people. Debbie - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 5:30 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us It would be impossible for anyone with Alzheimer?s or severe dementia to do anything like acknowledge responsibility or repent. One of our pastors is a youngish (mid 40?s?) man who has Parkinson?s. It doesn?t affect one mentally. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Monday, August 22, 2005 7:59 AMTo: truthtalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us At Pleasant Valley they are successful when they find the spiritual root or the reason for the curse to bethere - followed bythe victim acknowleding, taking responsibility, and repenting before the Lord. Deliverance and freedom are then easy andfor something like Alzheimers they would pray for a creative miracle to restore brain tissue. I don't know that they pray for these as yet though becausewhen I was there they were still doing research on Parkinson's, Alzheimers etc. A cousin of my husband just died from a stem cell disorder which is a lot likethese two and is called Supra Nuclear Palsy - have you heard of it Izzy? From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Izzy wrote: Would you expect such success in casting out demons in cases of Alzheimer's, where there is atrophied brain tissue? I've never thought of Alzheimer's being caused by evil spirits. In Alzheimer's there is definite organic destruction of brain tissue. I suppose it could be caused by an evil spirit. I've just never thought of it that way. I've looked at it as an aging process gone awry, and would categorize it more with stroke victims than bipolar / schizophrenia. Obviously, my faith might tend to fall short in this scenario due to my lack of knowledge. I would approach this more as a healing situation than a need for deliverance, but I'm teachable if this is not the case. Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
What about the ppl Jesus and the disciples cast them out of - they were God's Covenant ppl weren't they? The man in the church at Corinth carrying on with his father's wife had a demon of lust. Just because you don't see itspelled out for you like A-B-C does not mean it's not there. Satan has a right to the ppl who are still choosingthe world. If deliverance is not for the believer - then who is it for? Mind set on spirit? You've got to be kidding. Satan himself comes as an angel of light. Where have you been JD? On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:37:47 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Christian's cannot have demons, Linda. Don't listen to me on this. Just go to your bible and try to find one who did not there. As long as the mind is set on the Spirit to any degree, it can't happen. It didn't even happen in the OT JdFrom: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] You are asking the wrong question, as I wonder about these things myselffrom time to time. Can a true Believer have a demon? Be "oppressed"? Bepossessed? What's the difference??? I'd like to hear other opinions. izzy jt: Yes, Yes, and No. We need to understand that there are two kingdom's involved here and the Christian is in the process of transferring from one to the other. We are all oppressed from time to time and God allows the enemy to test us. Years ago I read a book called "Blumhardt's battle" about a German pastor with a severely demonized parishoner. He spent many hours praying with her and declaring the victory of Christ until she was entirely free. jt From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Are all illnesses "demonic" in your opinion -- whether physical or mental ora combination of both? Martin Luther was a textbook bi-polar. Do you thinkthat precluded him from being a "Christian," as in a true believer? Just curious what you think, Bill From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that alot. By the way, the enemies in the land comment leads me to ask if anyoneknows what is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled "Bi-polar"--up one day and low the next, and seem to me to always belooking for someone to be angry with. They are commonly treated with lithium.I've been around someone like that the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, Augu st 20, 2005 12:00 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us David Miller wrote: The concept that the Holy Spirit is working to convict believers of various sins, such as stealing, lust, covetousness, etc. is dangerous. Judy wrote: Why do you see this as dangerous David? Because people confuse the voice of the Spirit with their own inner convictions. Furthermore, they misinterpret the work of the Holy Spirit, and therefore ascribe works to him which are not his. This leads toerror. Judy wrote: Being conformed to the "image of Christ" does not happen overnight. It is a process, just as salvation itself is a process of past, present, future. It depends which image of Christ you are talking about. Are you talking about him in his now glorified state? You bet that is a process. Are you talking about Christ as an infant lying in a manger? No, that is not a process. That is an event called being born again. Judy wrote: An object lesson is given us in scripture ... when after Israel celebrated the passover and God led them supernaturally to the promised land. They were instructed to go in and take the land which He would give to them little by little. He did not clear the land all at one time because they would not be strong enough to hold it. (Exodus 23:29,30) Good object lesson, but look at it closely. They were no longer slaves in Egypt at this point. Once they crossed that Red Sea and the waters killed the Egyptians that were pursuing them, they were sa ved. They had deliverance from bondage to Egypt, which represents our deliverance fromthe bondage of sin to this world system. What they lacked was possessing the promised land, the kingdom of God. This is where faith comes in, and this is where the process of growth is important. We are immediately delivered, but love still is perfected. I may not sin, but that does not mean that I cannot love better. Yesterday I may have helped someone who came looking to me for help, but today I might seek out those who need help. Yesterday, I might have known how to lead someone toa hospital to get
RE: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Spoken like a man who has never suffered PMS. J izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 10:27 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Wrong questions? Hm. That's a good one.What do you think: Is PMS demonic? Aristotle thought the uterus (Greek: hyster) floated around in a woman's body. Once a month it wedged itself in her head, and for a few days she could be hysterical. We know now, of course, that this isn't so;rather, it's an influx of little demons, also known as hormones. My unscientific opinion: There's nothing intrinsically demonic about being bi-polar. It's what you do with your ups and downs that may or may not be demonically influenced (for instance, the looking for some-one or -thing to be angry with, may be an indication of demonic activity). The same is true with PMS -- or any other chemically induced mood-swing. I, for one, do not think there is a necessary cause/effect continuum between mental/physical states and demonic intrusion. There could be in certain cases, but there doesn't have to be. Put another way: You don't have to be a winch just because you're PMSing --or looking for a fight just because you're bi-polar. The question is the same each day: who am I going to serve? I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me (Gal 2.29). Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 8:59 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us You are asking the wrong question, as I wonder about these things myself from time to time. Can a true Believer have a demon? Be oppressed? Be possessed? What's the difference??? I'd like to hear other opinions. izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 8:45 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Are all illnesses demonic in your opinion -- whether physical or mental or a combination of both? Martin Luther was a textbook bi-polar. Do you think that precluded him from being a Christian, as in a true believer? Just curious what you think, Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 8:38 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that a lot. By the way, the enemies in the land comment leads me to ask if anyone knows what is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled Bi-polar--up one day and low the next, and seem to me to always be looking for someone to be angry with. They are commonly treated with lithium. I've been around someone like that the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 12:00 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us David Miller wrote: The concept that the Holy Spirit is working to convict believers of various sins, such as stealing, lust, covetousness, etc. is dangerous. Judy wrote: Why do you see this as dangerous David? Because people confuse the voice of the Spirit with their own inner convictions. Furthermore, they misinterpret the work of the Holy Spirit, and therefore ascribe works to him which are not his. This leads to error. Judy wrote: Being conformed to the image of Christ does not happen overnight. It is a process, just as salvation itself is a process of past, present, future. It depends which image of Christ you are talking about. Are you talking about him in his now glorified state? You bet that is a process. Are you talking about Christ as an infant lying in a manger? No, that is not a process. That is an event called being born again. Judy wrote: An object lesson is given us in scripture ... when after Israel celebrated the passover and God led them supernaturally to the promised land. They were instructed to go in and take the land which He would give to them little by little. He did not clear the land all at one time because they would not be strong enough to hold it. (Exodus 23:29,30) Good object lesson, but look at it closely. They were no longer slaves in Egypt at this point. Once they crossed that Red Sea and the waters killed
RE: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Its kind of like hugging a porcupine. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Though they act like their own worst enemy - they want to be loved. But you probably know that already. jt
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
I know it sounds abhorrent and we don't like to think
about it but the Holy Spirit andthe other spirit can be there
at the same time. This istrue when one
comes to the Lord; it is so in this world system; and it was so in Job
when
all the sons of God appeared before Him and satan was
amongst them. We can see it inZechariah 3:1.
Familiar spirits pass down through families and we
become so used to them we think their manifestations
normal. They integrate themselves and become part
ofour personalities until the light is shone on them and
then we have a choice to make. The man Jesus
dealt with at the synagogue apparently had that unclean
spirit inside because Jesus told it to "hold your peace
and come out of him" (Mark 1:23). The apostle Paul
confessedthat in his
flesh dwelled no good thing (Rom 7:18); he spoke of evil that dwelled
in him in the book
of Romans written more than 20 years following his own
conversion. Spirit, soul and body can all be
defiled
since all are to be sanctified (1 Thess 5:23). So IMO
we are much worse off when we start than any of us know.
I no longer try to figure out where they are - I just
want them gone. All of them. jt
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 05:37:02 -0500 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
The fuzzy area is
what does it mean to have a demon? Is it inside of you (your soul?),
or on the outside of you? Does it occupy the same space that the Holy Spirit
occupies, thereby keeping the Holy Spirit out? I know for sure that demons can
be on the outside of a Believer, bringing evil thoughts/intentions to that
person if they will receive it. Is that the same as having a demon? I
just am not sure. izzy
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Judy
Taylor
What about the ppl Jesus and the
disciples cast them out of - they were God's Covenant ppl
weren't
they? The man in the church at
Corinth
carrying on with his father's wife had a demon of lust.
Just
because you don't see itspelled
out for you like A-B-C does not mean it's not there. Satan has a
right
to the ppl who are still
choosingthe world. If deliverance is not for the believer - then
who is it for?
Mind set on spirit? You've got
to be kidding. Satan himself comes as an angel of light. Where
have
you been
JD?
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:37:47 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
Christian's
cannot have demons, Linda. Don't listen to me on
this. Just go to your bible and try to find one who did
not there. As long as the mind is set
on the Spirit to any degree, it can't happen. It didn't even
happen in the OT
Jd
From: Judy Taylor
jandgtaylor1@juno.com
From: "ShieldsFamily"
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
You are asking the wrong
question, as I wonder about these things myselffrom time to time.
Can a true Believer have a demon? Be "oppressed"? Bepossessed? What's
the difference??? I'd like to hear other opinions. izzy
jt: Yes, Yes,
and No. We need to understand that there are two
kingdom's
involved here
and the Christian is in the process of transferring from one
to
the
other. We are all oppressed from time to time and God allows the
enemy
to test
us. Years ago I read a book called "Blumhardt's battle" about a German
pastor with a
severely demonized parishoner. He spent many
hours praying
with her and
declaring the victory of Christ until she was entirely free. jt
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Are all illnesses "demonic" in
your opinion -- whether physical or mental ora combination of both?
Martin Luther was a textbook bi-polar. Do you thinkthat precluded him from being
a "Christian," as in a true believer?
Just curious what you
think, Bill
From: "ShieldsFamily"
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Really interesting
analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that alot. By
the way, the enemies in the land comment leads me to ask if
anyoneknows what is the underlying problem with people who are
commonly labeled "Bi-polar"--up one day and low the next, and seem to me
to always belooking for someone to be angry with. They are
commonly treated with lithium.I've been around someone like that
the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by the way),
and it seems demonic to me. izzy -Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf
Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, Augu st 20, 2005 12:00 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest o
RE: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
So you would say that demons inhabit body, soul and spirit? And how do you specifically define familiar spirits? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 5:25 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us I know it sounds abhorrent and we don't like to think about it but the Holy Spirit andthe other spirit can be there at the same time. This istrue when one comes to the Lord; it is so in this world system; and it was so in Job when all the sons of God appeared before Him and satan was amongst them. We can see it inZechariah 3:1. Familiar spirits pass down through families and we become so used to them we think their manifestations normal. They integrate themselves and become part ofour personalities until the light is shone on them and then we have a choice to make. The man Jesus dealt with at the synagogue apparently had that unclean spirit inside because Jesus told it to hold your peace and come out of him (Mark 1:23). The apostle Paul confessedthat in his flesh dwelled no good thing (Rom 7:18); he spoke of evil that dwelled in him in the book of Romans written more than 20 years following his own conversion. Spirit, soul and body can all be defiled since all are to be sanctified (1 Thess 5:23). So IMO we are much worse off when we start than any of us know. I no longer try to figure out where they are - I just want them gone. All of them. jt On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 05:37:02 -0500 ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The fuzzy area is what does it mean to have a demon? Is it inside of you (your soul?), or on the outside of you? Does it occupy the same space that the Holy Spirit occupies, thereby keeping the Holy Spirit out? I know for sure that demons can be on the outside of a Believer, bringing evil thoughts/intentions to that person if they will receive it. Is that the same as having a demon? I just am not sure. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor What about the ppl Jesus and the disciples cast them out of - they were God's Covenant ppl weren't they? The man in the church at Corinth carrying on with his father's wife had a demon of lust. Just because you don't see itspelled out for you like A-B-C does not mean it's not there. Satan has a right to the ppl who are still choosingthe world. If deliverance is not for the believer - then who is it for? Mind set on spirit? You've got to be kidding. Satan himself comes as an angel of light. Where have you been JD? On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:37:47 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Christian's cannot have demons, Linda. Don't listen to me on this. Just go to your bible and try to find one who did not there. As long as the mind is set on the Spirit to any degree, it can't happen. It didn't even happen in the OT Jd From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] You are asking the wrong question, as I wonder about these things myself from time to time. Can a true Believer have a demon? Be oppressed? Be possessed? What's the difference??? I'd like to hear other opinions. izzy jt: Yes, Yes, and No. We need to understand that there are two kingdom's involved here and the Christian is in the process of transferring from one to the other. We are all oppressed from time to time and God allows the enemy to test us. Years ago I read a book called Blumhardt's battle about a German pastor with a severely demonized parishoner. He spent many hours praying with her and declaring the victory of Christ until she was entirely free. jt From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Are all illnesses demonic in your opinion -- whether physical or mental or a combination of both? Martin Luther was a textbook bi-polar. Do you think that precluded him from being a Christian, as in a true believer? Just curious what you think, Bill From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that a lot. By the way, the enemies in the land comment leads me to ask if anyone knows what is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled Bi-polar--up one day and low the next, and seem to me to always be looking for someone to be angry with. They are commonly treated with lithium. I've been around someone like that the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, Augu st 20, 2005 12:00 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us David Miller
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
declaring the victory of Christ until she was entirely free. jt From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Are all illnesses "demonic" in your opinion -- whether physical or mental ora combination of both? Martin Luther was a textbook bi-polar. Do you thinkthat precluded him from being a "Christian," as in a true believer? Just curious what you think, Bill From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that alot. By the way, the enemies in the land comment leads me to ask if anyoneknows what is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled "Bi-polar"--up one day and low the next, and seem to me to always belooking for someone to be angry with. They are commonly treated with lithium.I've been around someone like that the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, Augu st 20, 2005 12:00 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us David Miller wrote: The concept that the Holy Spirit is working to convict believers of various sins, such as stealing, lust, covetousness, etc. is dangerous. Judy wrote: Why do you see this as dangerous David? Because people confuse the voice of the Spirit with their own inner convictions. Furthermore, they misinterpret the work of the Holy Spirit, and therefore ascribe works to him which are not his. This leads toerror. Judy wrote: Being conformed to the "image of Christ" does not happen overnight. It is a process, just as salvation itself is a process of past, present, future. It depends which image of Christ you are talking about. Are you talking about him in his now glorified state? You bet that is a process. Are you talking about Christ as an infant lying in a manger? No, that is not a process. That is an event called being born again. Judy wrote: An object lesson is given us in scripture ... when after Israel celebrated the passover and God led them supernaturally to the promised land. They were instructed to go in and take the land which He would give to them little by little. He did not clear the land all at one time because they would not be strong enough to hold it. (Exodus 23:29,30) Good object lesson, but look at it closely. They were no longer slaves in Egypt at this point. Once they crossed that Red Sea and the waters killed the Egyptians that were pursuing them, they were sa ved. They had deliverance from bondage to Egypt, which represents our deliverance fromthe bondage of sin to this world system. What they lacked was possessing the promised land, the kingdom of God. This is where faith comes in, and this is where the process of growth is important. We are immediately delivered, but love still is perfected. I may not sin, but that does not mean that I cannot love better. Yesterday I may have helped someone who came looking to me for help, but today I might seek out those who need help. Yesterday, I might have known how to lead someone toa hospital to get help, but today I might pray for him to be healedinstantly and thereby better help him in his situation. Jesus at one time did no miracles, but his obedience and love were perfected at that time when hedid minister in miracles and healed the sick, and ultimately gave his life a ransom for all, the ultimate _expression_ of love which he did when he was more than 33 years old, not when he was 5 years old. Judy wrote: Likewise when we surrender our lives to Christ we also have enemies on the land (our heart) ... You have the wrong analogy here, Judy. The enemies of our own heart were when we were in Egypt, or the unbelief when God tells us to possess his kingdom and we say such is impossible. The enemies in the land, the Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and BRthe Girgashites, and the Jebusites... these enemies represent not defects ofour own heart, but enemies in the air, principalities and powers and rulers of darkness and spiritual wickedness in high places which inspire people toact contrary to us and to mock us and to hate us and kill us. Judy wrote: Those of us who are honest
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
JD wrote: I think it's true that we receive much from God before we are even really aware of it, and only later it dawns on us that he was at work in us. But that doesn't mean it was me all along, or that everything I did all my life was right. It means that if I did any living of the truth before I knew it, that too is because of him. How very true, JD. There is nothing good in this world that did not originate from the Spirit of our heavenly Father. JD wrote: I believe that to deny this measure of grace, God's working in us, is to the add to the destructive nature of the lie that is known as roughed individualism (read:autonomy). Have you ever known any disciple of Christ who has denied this truth? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
I have to question, Judy,your statement about a demon of lust. I see lust as animal instinct, desire to satisfy the flesh. Most definitly sinful, but a product of our own wicked hearts. Before I was saved, I was a world class luster, so I speak somewhat as an expert in this area. Terry Judy Taylor wrote: What about the ppl Jesus and the disciples cast them out of - they were God's Covenant ppl weren't they? The man in the church at Corinth carrying on with his father's wife had a demon of lust. Just because you don't see itspelled out for you like A-B-C does not mean it's not there. Satan has a right to the ppl who are still choosingthe world. If deliverance is not for the believer - then who is it for? Mind set on spirit? You've got to be kidding. Satan himself comes as an angel of light. Where have you been JD? On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:37:47 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Christian's cannot have demons, Linda. Don't listen to me on this. Just go to your bible and try to find one who did not there. As long as the mind is set on the Spirit to any degree, it can't happen. It didn't even happen in the OT Jd From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] You are asking the wrong question, as I wonder about these things myself from time to time. Can a true Believer have a demon? Be "oppressed"? Be possessed? What's the difference??? I'd like to hear other opinions. izzy jt: Yes, Yes, and No. We need to understand that there are two kingdom's involved here and the Christian is in the process of transferring from one to the other. We are all oppressed from time to time and God allows the enemy to test us. Years ago I read a book called "Blumhardt's battle" about a German pastor with a severely demonized parishoner. He spent many hours praying with her and declaring the victory of Christ until she was entirely free. jt From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Are all illnesses "demonic" in your opinion -- whether physical or mental or a combination of both? Martin Luther was a textbook bi-polar. Do you think that precluded him from being a "Christian," as in a true believer? Just curious what you think, Bill From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that a lot. By the way, the enemies in the land comment leads me to ask if anyone knows what is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled "Bi-polar"--up one day and low the next, and seem to me to always be looking for someone to be angry with. They are commonly treated with lithium. I've been around someone like that the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, Augu st 20, 2005 12:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us David Miller wrote: The concept that the Holy Spirit is working to convict believers of various sins, such as stealing, lust, covetousness, etc. is dangerous. Judy wrote: Why do you see this as dangerous David? Because people confuse the voice of the Spirit with their own inner convictions. Furthermore, they misinterpret the work of the Holy Spirit, and therefore ascribe works to him which are not his. This leads to error. Judy wrote: Being conformed to the "image of Christ" does not happen overnight. It is a process, just as salvation itself is a process of past, present, future. It depends which image of Christ you are talking about. Are you talking about him in his now glorified state? You bet that is a process. Are you talking about Christ as an infant lying in a manger? No, that is not a process. That is an event called being born again. Judy wrote: An object lesson is given us in scripture ... when after Israel celebrated the passover and God led them supernaturally to the promised land. They were instructed to go in and take the land which He would give to them little by little. He did not clear the land all at one time because they would not be strong enough to hold it. (Exodus 23:29,30) Good object lesson, but look at it closely. They were no longer slaves in Egypt at this point. Once they crossed that Red Sea and the waters killed the Egyptians that were pursuing them, they were sa ved. They had deliverance from bondage to Egypt, which represents our deliverance from the bondage of sin to this world system. What they lacked was possessing the promised land, the kingdom of God. This is where faith comes in, and this is where the process of growth is important. We are immediately delivered, but love stil
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
I happen to agree with you, John, but absence of an example in the Bible does not prove it. In your statement, the question might be can a Christian not have his mind set on the Spirit and still be a Christian. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:37:47 -0400 Christian's cannot have demons, Linda. Don't listen to me on this. Just go to your bible and try to find one who did not there. As long as the mind is set on the Spirit to any degree, it can't happen. It didn't even happen in the OT Jd -Original Message- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:14:19 -0400 Subject: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] You are asking the wrong question, as I wonder about these things myself from time to time. Can a true Believer have a demon? Be oppressed? Be possessed? What's the difference??? I'd like to hear other opinions. izzy jt: Yes, Yes, and No. We need to understand that there are two kingdom's involved here and the Christian is in the process of transferring from one to the other. We are all oppressed from time to time and God allows the enemy to test us. Years ago I read a book called Blumhardt's battle about a German pastor with a severely demonized parishoner. He spent many hours praying with her and declaring the victory of Christ until she was entirely free. jt From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Are all illnesses demonic in your opinion -- whether physical or mental or a combination of both? Martin Luther was a textbook bi-polar. Do you think that precluded him from being a Christian, as in a true believer? Just curious what you think, Bill From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that a lot. By the way, the enemies in the land comment leads me to ask if anyone knows what is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled Bi-polar--up one day and low the next, and seem to me to always be looking for someone to be angry with. They are commonly treated with lithium. I've been around someone like that the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 12:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us David Miller wrote: The concept that the Holy Spirit is working to convict believers of various sins, such as stealing, lust, covetousness, etc. is dangerous. Judy wrote: Why do you see this as dangerous David? Because people confuse the voice of the Spirit with their own inner convictions. Furthermore, they misinterpret the work of the Holy Spirit, and therefore ascribe works to him which are not his. This leads to error. Judy wrote: Being conformed to the image of Christ does not happen overnight. It is a process, just as salvation itself is a process of past, present, future. It depends which image of Christ you are talking about. Are you talking about him in his now glorified state? You bet that is a process. Are you talking about Christ as an infant lying in a manger? No, that is not a process. That is an event called being born again. Judy wrote: An object lesson is given us in scripture ... when after Israel celebrated the passover and God led them supernaturally to the promised land. They were instructed to go in and take the land which He would give to them little by little. He did not clear the land all at one time because they would not be strong enough to hold it. (Exodus 23:29,30) Good object lesson, but look at it closely. They were no longer slaves in Egypt at this point. Once they crossed that Red Sea and the waters killed the Egyptians that were pursuing them, they were saved. They had deliverance from bondage to Egypt, which represents our deliverance from the bondage of sin to this world system. What they lacked was possessing the promised land, the kingdom of God. This is where faith comes in, and this is where the process of growth is important. We are immediately delivered, but love still is perfected. I may not sin, but that does not mean that I cannot love better. Yesterday I may have helped someone who came looking to me for help, but today I might seek out those who need help. Yesterday, I might have known how to lead someone to a hospital to get help, but today I might pray for him to be healed instantly and thereby better help him in his situation. Jesus at one time did no miracles, but his obedience and love were perfected at that time when he did minister in miracles and healed the sick, and ultimately gave
Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Debbie, What is a "prima facie" reason?If your FIL's problem was not demonic then why do you suppose he would lash out at those who love him the mostin such an erratic fashion? The mancertainly has the kind of lifehistory that would cause him to bea prime candidate forsuch. As for the question as to whether these spiritsare able to come and go at will? This is evident in the later life of King Saul when David would be summoned to play his harp under the anointing to give Saul some relief from the torment. judyt From: "Debbie Sawczak" [EMAIL PROTECTED] My latefather-in-law, a very intelligent man,was bipolar from about his mid-50s and got worse during the time that I knew him. During bad depressive episodes hewas extremely insulting towards everyone, oftenaccusing my husband Jan of being a pimp who secretly hired our children out as prostitutes,and his sister of being a prostitute herself. He would ask my motherwhy she was still aroundandwhen she would return to hell from whence she came, being a spawn of the devil, and would call his wife and her relatives the most horrible names to their face. His bipolar disorder was complicated by paranoid delusions in which he sincerely believed the KGB were after him (he was Polish; see also below re war) and that we (and most other people) were agents.During milder episodes he just thought everyone but him was an imbecile, and during manic episodes he was charming andfunny and generous.In his best times he spent hours reading the Bible (and other books) andspoke about the worship of Christ being central to our lives. He was treated with a succession ofpowerful drugs, which he hated taking, so he was dangerously self-medicating. Once he disappeared and we found him three days later sleeping in his car in a parking lot. Jan ignored all the insulting behaviour and consistently showed his dad tenderness and respect, much more than I managed to. He tried to treat his dad like an ordinary person; he said he remembered the wonderful person his father had been when he was a kid,and chose to keep seeing that person before him. In the last few years of my father-in-law's life,when he was in a retirement home and visited only by us and Jan's sister (with the grandkids), he got to be a lot more normal and sound. I don't know why, unless maybe they finally found the right drug and ensured he took it. Or maybe it is a condition that just goes away.Or maybe it has to do with life circumstances combined with people's different degrees of resilience; he did, after all, fight for the British forces in WWII and witnessed allhis comrades in his paratrooping squad shot in the air. He also did actually spend time in Siberia, during which time he went blind from malnutrition and underwent some attempts at brainwashing. But some people endured worse and didn't crack up, and some people are bipolar without any such stresses. I don'tknow that much about mental illness.But I see no prima facie reason for regarding it as demonic, although I do believe in the activityof demons. I believe my father-in-law had a relationship with Christ. Debbie From: Judy Taylor From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] So why do you put Christian in quotesis she or isnt she? I know I struggled for years with debilitating depression. The only therapy I ever had was through seeking after the Lord with all my heart, and eventually He healed and delivered me. It doesnt mean I cant get depressed today, but thats a whole different animal from the blackness that debilitates you with such overwhelming hopelessness that it takes concentrated effort just to take the next breath. I praise God for His mercy and faithfulness. I was a believer, but satan had his hands around my throat. The Lord is mightier, but I was set free overnight by any means. I guess I had to learn on my own when to recognize it as the enemy and rebuke him. I guess with the demonic thing I notice about the couple of women Ive known who were bipolar personalities is the anger thingyou know, always trying to be offended or to pick an argument. Thats what really makes me uncomfortable. I havent had time to think it through, but I can tell when I sense something demonic. And Im not sure how to react to it. izzy Please don't take the quotes to heart, I used them to emphasize the fact that she is a Christian, she prays for me all the time. I've been through depressive spells (though not as severe) myself and I understand the desperation. Praise God for his faithfulness in your life (and mine)Izzy. I hear what you're saying about the anger - sounds familiar and I know it is demonic. The sad thing is that ppl in this situationalienate what they need the most which is love and acceptance. jt From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Really interesting analogies, Judy and David.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
My latefather-in-law, a very intelligent man,was bipolar from about his mid-50s and got worse during the time that I knew him. During bad depressive episodes hewas extremely insulting towards everyone, oftenaccusing my husband Jan of being a pimp who secretly hired our children out as prostitutes,and his sister of being a prostitute herself. He would ask my motherwhy she was still aroundandwhen she would return to hell from whence she came, being a spawn of the devil, and would call his wife and her relatives the most horrible names to their face. His bipolar disorder was complicated by paranoid delusions in which he sincerely believed the KGB were after him (he was Polish; see also below re war) and that we (and most other people) were agents.During milder episodes he just thought everyone but him was an imbecile, and during manic episodes he was charming andfunny and generous.In his best times he spent hours reading the Bible (and other books) andspoke about the worship of Christ being central to our lives. He was treated with a succession ofpowerful drugs, which he hated taking, so he was dangerously self-medicating. Once he disappeared and we found him three days later sleeping in his car in a parking lot. Jan ignored all the insulting behaviour and consistently showed his dad tenderness and respect, much more than I managed to. He tried to treat his dad like an ordinary person; he said he remembered the wonderful person his father had been when he was a kid,and chose to keep seeing that person before him. In the last few years of my father-in-law's life,when he was in a retirement home and visited only by us and Jan's sister (with the grandkids), he got to be a lot more normal and sound. I don't know why, unless maybe they finally found the right drug and ensured he took it. Or maybe it is a condition that just goes away.Or maybe it has to do with life circumstances combined with people's different degrees of resilience; he did, after all, fight for the British forces in WWII and witnessed allhis comrades in his paratrooping squad shot in the air. He also did actually spend time in Siberia, during which time he went blind from malnutrition and underwent some attempts at brainwashing. But some people endured worse and didn't crack up, and some people are bipolar without any such stresses. I don'tknow that much about mental illness.But I see no prima facie reason for regarding it as demonic, although I do believe in the activityof demons. I believe my father-in-law had a relationship with Christ. Debbie - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 11:25 PM Subject: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] So why do you put Christian in quotesis she or isnt she? I know I struggled for years with debilitating depression. The only therapy I ever had was through seeking after the Lord with all my heart, and eventually He healed and delivered me. It doesnt mean I cant get depressed today, but thats a whole different animal from the blackness that debilitates you with such overwhelming hopelessness that it takes concentrated effort just to take the next breath. I praise God for His mercy and faithfulness. I was a believer, but satan had his hands around my throat. The Lord is mightier, but I was set free overnight by any means. I guess I had to learn on my own when to recognize it as the enemy and rebuke him. I guess with the demonic thing I notice about the couple of women Ive known who were bipolar personalities is the anger thingyou know, always trying to be offended or to pick an argument. Thats what really makes me uncomfortable. I havent had time to think it through, but I can tell when I sense something demonic. And Im not sure how to react to it. izzy Please don't take the quotes to heart, I used them to emphasize the fact that she is a Christian, she prays for me all the time. I've been through depressive spells (though not as severe) myself and I understand the desperation. Praise God for his faithfulness in your life (and mine)Izzy. I hear what you're saying about the anger - sounds familiar and I know it is demonic. The sad thing is that ppl in this situationalienate what they need the most which is love and acceptance. jt From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that a lot.By the way, the enemies in the land comment leads me to ask if anyone knowswhat is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled"Bi-polar"--up one day and low the next, and seem to me to always be lookingfor someone to be angry with. They are commonly treated with lithium. I'vebeen around someone like that the last couple of weeks (who
Re: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Hi Judy, I'm not making an argument, actually; I'm just sharinga descriptive account of myonly substantial exposure to mental illness. I'm not saying it couldn't be demonic, just that I have no reason to assume so. People with brain injuries also exhibit such behaviour, and worse.I don't know why itshould be attributed to a demon in either case. Butmaybe it was. It may even have been both--a naturally explainable illness taken advantage of by demons. I don't know. Butone clue for me is that although I didn't really know how tointeract with him, I never feltthe presence of spiritual darkness around him the way I did, for example, in someenvironments in Nepal.But I don't claim to have the gift of discerning spirits... Debbie - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 2:48 PM Subject: Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Debbie, What is a "prima facie" reason?If your FIL's problem was not demonic then why do you suppose he would lash out at those who love him the mostin such an erratic fashion? The mancertainly has the kind of lifehistory that would cause him to bea prime candidate forsuch. As for the question as to whether these spiritsare able to come and go at will? This is evident in the later life of King Saul when David would be summoned to play his harp under the anointing to give Saul some relief from the torment. judyt From: "Debbie Sawczak" [EMAIL PROTECTED] My latefather-in-law, a very intelligent man,was bipolar from about his mid-50s and got worse during the time that I knew him. During bad depressive episodes hewas extremely insulting towards everyone, oftenaccusing my husband Jan of being a pimp who secretly hired our children out as prostitutes,and his sister of being a prostitute herself. He would ask my motherwhy she was still aroundandwhen she would return to hell from whence she came, being a spawn of the devil, and would call his wife and her relatives the most horrible names to their face. His bipolar disorder was complicated by paranoid delusions in which he sincerely believed the KGB were after him (he was Polish; see also below re war) and that we (and most other people) were agents.During milder episodes he just thought everyone but him was an imbecile, and during manic episodes he was charming andfunny and generous.In his best times he spent hours reading the Bible (and other books) andspoke about the worship of Christ being central to our lives. He was treated with a succession ofpowerful drugs, which he hated taking, so he was dangerously self-medicating. Once he disappeared and we found him three days later sleeping in his car in a parking lot. Jan ignored all the insulting behaviour and consistently showed his dad tenderness and respect, much more than I managed to. He tried to treat his dad like an ordinary person; he said he remembered the wonderful person his father had been when he was a kid,and chose to keep seeing that person before him. In the last few years of my father-in-law's life,when he was in a retirement home and visited only by us and Jan's sister (with the grandkids), he got to be a lot more normal and sound. I don't know why, unless maybe they finally found the right drug and ensured he took it. Or maybe it is a condition that just goes away.Or maybe it has to do with life circumstances combined with people's different degrees of resilience; he did, after all, fight for the British forces in WWII and witnessed allhis comrades in his paratrooping squad shot in the air. He also did actually spend time in Siberia, during which time he went blind from malnutrition and underwent some attempts at brainwashing. But some people endured worse and didn't crack up, and some people are bipolar without any such stresses. I don'tknow that much about mental illness.But I see no prima facie reason for regarding it as demonic, although I do believe in the activityof demons. I believe my father-in-law had a relationship with Christ. Debbie From: Judy Taylor From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] So why do you put Christian in quotesis she or isnt she? I know I struggled for years with debilitating depression. The only therapy I ever had was through seeking after the Lord with all my heart, and eventually He healed and delivered me. It doesnt mean I cant get depressed today, but thats a whole different animal from the blackness that debilitates you with such overwhelming hopelessness that it takes concentrated effort just to take the next breath. I praise God for His mercy and faithfulness. I was a believer, but satan had his hands around my throat. The Lord is mightier, but I was set
Re: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Thank you for sharing Debbie, If you would care to share about your experiences in Nepal, I'm sure it would be an interesting read. judyt On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 15:51:34 -0400 "Debbie Sawczak" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Judy, I'm not making an argument, actually; I'm just sharinga descriptive account of myonly substantial exposure to mental illness. I'm not saying it couldn't be demonic, just that I have no reason to assume so. People with brain injuries also exhibit such behaviour, and worse.I don't know why itshould be attributed to a demon in either case. Butmaybe it was. It may even have been both--a naturally explainable illness taken advantage of by demons. I don't know. Butone clue for me is that although I didn't really know how tointeract with him, I never feltthe presence of spiritual darkness around him the way I did, for example, in someenvironments in Nepal.But I don't claim to have the gift of discerning spirits... Debbie From: Judy Taylor Debbie, What is a "prima facie" reason?If your FIL's problem was not demonic then why do you suppose he would lash out at those who love him the mostin such an erratic fashion? The mancertainly has the kind of lifehistory that would cause him to bea prime candidate forsuch. As for the question as to whether these spiritsare able to come and go at will? This is evident in the later life of King Saul when David would be summoned to play his harp under the anointing to give Saul some relief from the torment. judyt From: "Debbie Sawczak" [EMAIL PROTECTED] My latefather-in-law, a very intelligent man,was bipolar from about his mid-50s and got worse during the time that I knew him. During bad depressive episodes hewas extremely insulting towards everyone, oftenaccusing my husband Jan of being a pimp who secretly hired our children out as prostitutes,and his sister of being a prostitute herself. He would ask my motherwhy she was still aroundandwhen she would return to hell from whence she came, being a spawn of the devil, and would call his wife and her relatives the most horrible names to their face. His bipolar disorder was complicated by paranoid delusions in which he sincerely believed the KGB were after him (he was Polish; see also below re war) and that we (and most other people) were agents.During milder episodes he just thought everyone but him was an imbecile, and during manic episodes he was charming andfunny and generous.In his best times he spent hours reading the Bible (and other books) andspoke about the worship of Christ being central to our lives. He was treated with a succession ofpowerful drugs, which he hated taking, so he was dangerously self-medicating. Once he disappeared and we found him three days later sleeping in his car in a parking lot. Jan ignored all the insulting behaviour and consistently showed his dad tenderness and respect, much more than I managed to. He tried to treat his dad like an ordinary person; he said he remembered the wonderful person his father had been when he was a kid,and chose to keep seeing that person before him. In the last few years of my father-in-law's life,when he was in a retirement home and visited only by us and Jan's sister (with the grandkids), he got to be a lot more normal and sound. I don't know why, unless maybe they finally found the right drug and ensured he took it. Or maybe it is a condition that just goes away.Or maybe it has to do with life circumstances combined with people's different degrees of resilience; he did, after all, fight for the British forces in WWII and witnessed allhis comrades in his paratrooping squad shot in the air. He also did actually spend time in Siberia, during which time he went blind from malnutrition and underwent some attempts at brainwashing. But some people endured worse and didn't crack up, and some people are bipolar without any such stresses. I don'tknow that much about mental illness.But I see no prima facie reason for regarding it as demonic, although I do believe in the activityof demons. I believe my father-in-law had a relationship with Christ. Debbie From: Judy Taylor From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] So why do you put Christian in quotesis she or isnt she? I know I struggled for years with debilitating depression. The only therapy I ever had was through seeking after the Lord with all my heart, and eventually He healed and delivered me. It doesnt mean I cant get depressed today, but thats a whole different animal from the blackness that debilitates you with such overwhelming hopelessness that it takes
RE: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Thanks for sharing about your FIL. Its terribly sad. Ive always been puzzled by mental illness, ever since my nursing student days at the state mental facility. The paranoid schizophrenics were always reciting Bible passages and talking about God; it seemed really demonic. But who knows how much is chemical and how much is spiritual in any given mental illness? Tourettes Syndrome is fascinating, as it makes the poor victim shout out vile obscenities that they would never say of their own volition. It sounds like your FIL was a fine man with a tragic situation. We can take comfort in the fact that God is merciful as well as just. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Debbie Sawczak Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 12:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us My latefather-in-law, a very intelligent man,was bipolar from about his mid-50s and got worse during the time that I knew him. During bad depressive episodes hewas extremely insulting towards everyone, oftenaccusing my husband Jan of being a pimp who secretly hired our children out as prostitutes,and his sister of being a prostitute herself. He would ask my motherwhy she was still aroundandwhen she would return to hell from whence she came, being a spawn of the devil, and would call his wife and her relatives the most horrible names to their face. His bipolar disorder was complicated by paranoid delusions in which he sincerely believed the KGB were after him (he was Polish; see also below re war) and that we (and most other people) were agents.During milder episodes he just thought everyone but him was an imbecile, and during manic episodes he was charming andfunny and generous.In his best times he spent hours reading the Bible (and other books) andspoke about the worship of Christ being central to our lives. He was treated with a succession ofpowerful drugs, which he hated taking, so he was dangerously self-medicating. Once he disappeared and we found him three days later sleeping in his car in a parking lot. Jan ignored all the insulting behaviour and consistently showed his dad tenderness and respect, much more than I managed to. He tried to treat his dad like an ordinary person; he said he remembered the wonderful person his father had been when he was a kid,and chose to keep seeing that person before him. In the last few years of my father-in-law's life,when he was in a retirement home and visited only by us and Jan's sister (with the grandkids), he got to be a lot more normal and sound. I don't know why, unless maybe they finally found the right drug and ensured he took it. Or maybe it is a condition that just goes away.Or maybe it has to do with life circumstances combined with people's different degrees of resilience; he did, after all, fight for the British forces in WWII and witnessed allhis comrades in his paratrooping squad shot in the air. He also did actually spend time in Siberia, during which time he went blind from malnutrition and underwent some attempts at brainwashing. But some people endured worse and didn't crack up, and some people are bipolar without any such stresses. I don'tknow that much about mental illness.But I see no prima facie reason for regarding it as demonic, although I do believe in the activityof demons. I believe my father-in-law had a relationship with Christ. Debbie - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 11:25 PM Subject: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] So why do you put Christian in quotesis she or isnt she? I know I struggled for years with debilitating depression. The only therapy I ever had was through seeking after the Lord with all my heart, and eventually He healed and delivered me. It doesnt mean I cant get depressed today, but thats a whole different animal from the blackness that debilitates you with such overwhelming hopelessness that it takes concentrated effort just to take the next breath. I praise God for His mercy and faithfulness. I was a believer, but satan had his hands around my throat. The Lord is mightier, but I was set free overnight by any means. I guess I had to learn on my own when to recognize it as the enemy and rebuke him. I guess with the demonic thing I notice about the couple of women Ive known who were bipolar personalities is the anger thingyou know, always trying to be offended or to pick an argument. Thats what really makes me uncomfortable. I havent had time to think it through, but I can tell when I sense something demonic. And Im not sure how to react to it. izzy Please don't take the quotes to heart, I used them to emphasize the fact that she is a Christian, she prays for me all the time. I've been through depressive spells (though not as severe) myself and I understand
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Yes -- you are right about the covenant people. I stand corrected on that one. But, I do not find any Christians demon possessed. the only way you get demons into Christians is via speculation - a major source of information for you. JD-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 02:33:17 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us What about the ppl Jesus and the disciples cast them out of - they were God's Covenant ppl weren't they? The man in the church at Corinth carrying on with his father's wife had a demon of lust. Just because you don't see itspelled out for you like A-B-C does not mean it's not there. Satan has a right to the ppl who are still choosingthe world. If deliverance is not for the believer - then who is it for? Mind set on spirit? You've got to be kidding. Satan himself comes as an angel of light. Where have you been JD? On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:37:47 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Christian's cannot have demons, Linda. Don't listen to me on this. Just go to your bible and try to find one who did not there. As long as the mind is set on the Spirit to any degree, it can't happen. It didn't even happen in the OT JdFrom: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] You are asking the wrong question, as I wonder about these things myselffrom time to time. Can a true Believer have a demon? Be "oppressed"? Bepossessed? What's the difference??? I'd like to hear other opinions. izzy jt: Yes, Yes, and No. We need to understand that there are two kingdom's involved here and the Christian is in the process of transferring from one to the other. We are all oppressed from time to time and God allows the enemy to test us. Years ago I read a book called "Blumhardt's battle" about a German pastor with a severely demonized parishoner. He spent many hours praying with her and declaring the victory of Christ until she was entirely free. jt From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Are all illnesses "demonic" in your opinion -- whether physical or mental ora combination of both? Martin Luther was a textbook bi-polar. Do you thinkthat precluded him from being a "Christian," as in a true believer? Just curious what you think, Bill From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that alot. By the way, the enemies in the land comment leads me to ask if anyoneknows what is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled "Bi-polar"--up one day and low the next, and seem to me to always belooking for someone to be angry with. They are commonly treated with lithium.I've been around someone like that the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, Augu st 20, 2005 12:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us David Miller wrote: The concept that the Holy Spirit is working to convict believers of various sins, such as stealing, lust, covetousness, etc. is dangerous. Judy wrote: Why do you see this as dangerous David? Because people confuse the voice of the Spirit with their own inner convictions. Furthermore, they misinterpret the work of the Holy Spirit, and therefore ascribe works to him which are not his. This leads toerror. Judy wrote: Being conformed to the "image of Christ" does not happen overnight. It is a process, just as salvation itself is a process of past, present, future. It depends which image of Christ you are talking abo ut. Are you talking about him in his now glorified state? You bet that is a process. Are you talking about Christ as an infant lying in a manger? No, that is not a process. That is an event called being born again. Judy wrote: An object lesson is given us in scripture ... when after Israel celebrated the passover and God led them supernaturally to the promised land. They were instructed to go in and take the land which He would give to them little by little. He did not clear the land all at one time because they would not be strong enough to hold it. (Exodus 23:29,30) Good object lesson, but look at it closely. They were no longer slaves in Egypt at this point. Once they crossed that Red Sea and the waters killed the Egyptians that were pursuing them, th ey were sa ved. They had deliverance from bondage to Egypt, which represents our deliverance fromthe bondage of sin to this world system. What they lacked was possessing the promised land, the kingdom of God. This is where faith comes in, and this is where the process of growth is important. We are immediately delivered, but love still is perfected. I may not sin, but that does not mean that I cannot
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
-Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 08:28:42 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us JD wrote: I think it's true that we receive much from God before we are even really aware of it, and only later it dawns on us that he was at work in us. But that doesn't mean it was me all along, or that everything I did all my life was right. It means that if I did any living of the truth before I knew it, that too is because of him. How very true, JD. There is nothing good in this world that did not originate from the Spirit of our heavenly Father.I believe these words to be Debbie's/ JD wrote: I believe that to deny this measure of grace, God's working in us, is to the add to the destructive nature of the lie that is known as "roughed individualism" (read:autonomy). Have you ever known any disciple of Christ who has denied this truth? Most definitely. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Couldn't resist that little dig huh JD? I have to agree that demons major in speculation and all kinds of complicated and varied theologies. Do you know some of them are expert in Greek and they just love logic. What they hate is the Word of God. On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:06:24 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes -- you are right about the covenant people. I stand corrected on that one. But, I do not find any Christians demon possessed.the only way you get demons into Christians is via speculation - a major source of information for you. JD From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com What about the ppl Jesus and the disciples cast them out of - they were God's Covenant ppl weren't they? The man in the church at Corinth carrying on with his father's wife had a demon of lust. Just because you don't see itspelled out for you like A-B-C does not mean it's not there. Satan has a right to the ppl who are still choosingthe world. If deliverance is not for the believer - then who is it for? Mind set on spirit? You've got to be kidding. Satan himself comes as an angel of light. Where have you been JD? On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:37:47 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Christian's cannot have demons, Linda. Don't listen to me on this. Just go to your bible and try to find one who did not there. As long as the mind is set on the Spirit to any degree, it can't happen. It didn't even happen in the OT JdFrom: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] You are asking the wrong question, as I wonder about these things myselffrom time to time. Can a true Believer have a demon? Be "oppressed"? Bepossessed? What's the difference??? I'd like to hear other opinions. izzy jt: Yes, Yes, and No. We need to understand that there are two kingdom's involved here and the Christian is in the process of transferring from one to the other. We are all oppressed from time to time and God allows the enemy to test us. Years ago I read a book called "Blumhardt's battle" about a German pastor with a severely demonized parishoner. He spent many hours praying with her and declaring the victory of Christ until she was entirely free. jt From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Are all illnesses "demonic" in your opinion -- whether physical or mental ora combination of both? Martin Luther was a textbook bi-polar. Do you thinkthat precluded him from being a "Christian," as in a true believer? Just curious what you think, Bill From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that alot. By the way, the enemies in the land comment leads me to ask if anyoneknows what is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled "Bi-polar"--up one day and low the next, and seem to me to always belooking for someone to be angry with. They are commonly treated with lithium.I've been around someone like that the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, Augu st 20, 2005 12:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us David Miller wrote: The concept that the Holy Spirit is working to convict believers of various sins, such as stealing, lust, covetousness, etc. is dangerous. Judy wrote: Why do you see this as dangerous David? Because people confuse the voice of the Spirit with their own inner convictions. Furthermore, they misinterpret the work of the Holy Spirit, and therefore ascribe works to him which are not his. This leads toerror. Judy wrote: Being conformed to the "image of Christ" does not happen overnight. It is a process, just as salvation itself is a process of past, present, future. It depends which image of Christ you are talking abo ut. Are you talking about him in his now glorified state? You bet that is a process. Are you talking about Christ as an infant lying in a manger? No, that is not a process. That is an event called being born again. Judy wrote: An object lesson is given us in scripture ... when after Israel celebrated the passover and God led them supernaturally to the promised land. They were instructed to go in and take the land which He would give to them little by little. He did not clear the land all at one time because they would not be strong enough to hold it. (Exodus 23:29,30) Good object lesson, but look at it closely. They w
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
I do not make much of the silence of the scripture in terms of dogma. My reference to the absence of a demonic Christian is partnered with a number of biblical references i.e. the binding of the strong man. I would simply thing the answer to the last question in your post to "yes - if we are not talking about rejection of the Lord." -Original Message-From: Charles Perry Locke cpl2602@hotmail.comTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 06:23:23 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us I happen to agree with you, John, but absence of an example in the Bible does not prove it. In your statement, the question might be can a Christian not have his mind set on the Spirit and still be a Christian.From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of usDate: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:37:47 -0400Christian's cannot have demons, Linda. Don't listen to me on this. Just go to your bible and try to find one who did not there. As long as the mind is set on the Spirit to any degree, it can't happen. It didn't even happen in the OTJd-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:14:19 -0400Subject: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of usFrom: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]You are asking the wrong question, as I wonder about these things myselffrom time to time. Can a true Believer have a demon? Be "oppressed"? Bepossessed? What's the difference??? I'd like to hear other opinions. izzyjt: Yes, Yes, and No. We need to understand that there are two kingd om'sinvolved here and the Christian is in the process of transferring from one tothe other. We are all oppressed from time to time and God allows the enemyto test us. Years ago I read a book called "Blumhardt's battle" about a Germanpastor with a severely demonized parishoner. He spent many hours prayingwith her and declaring the victory of Christ until she was entirely free. jtFrom: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Are all illnesses "demonic" in your opinion -- whether physical or mental ora combination of both? Martin Luther was a textbook bi-polar. Do you thinkthat precluded him from being a "Christian," as in a tru e believer?Just curious what you think, BillFrom: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that alot. By the way, the enemies in the land comment leads me to ask if anyoneknows what is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled "Bi-polar"--up one day and low the next, and seem to me to always belooking for someone to be angry with. They are commonly treated with lithium.I've been around someone like that the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy -Original Messag e- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 12:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us David Miller wrote: The concept that the Holy Spirit is working to convict believers of various sins, such as stealing, lust, covetousness, etc. is dangerous. Judy wrote: Why do you see this as dangerous David? Because people confuse the voice of the Spirit with their own inner ; convictions. Furthermore, they misinterpret the work of the Holy Spirit, and therefore ascribe works to him which are not his. This leads toerror. Judy wrote: Being conformed to the "image of Christ" does not happen overnight. It is a process, just as salvation itself is a process of past, present, future. It depends which image of Christ you are talking about. Are you talking about him in his now glorified state? You bet that is a process. Are you talking about Christ as an infant lying in a manger? No, that is not a process. That is an event called being born again. Judy wrote: An object lesson is given us in scripture ... when after Israel celebrated the passover and God led them supernaturally to the promised land. They were instructed to go in and take the land which He would give to them little by little. He did not clear the land all at one time because they would not be strong enough to hold it. (Exodus 23:29,30) Good object lesson, but look at it closely. They were no longer slaves in Egypt at this point. Once they crossed that Red Sea and the waters killed the Egyptians that were pursuing them, they were saved. They had deliverance from bondage to Egypt, which represents our deliverance fromthe bondage of sin to this world system. What they lacked was possessing the promised land, the kingdom of God. This is where faith comes in, and this is where the process of growth is important. We are immediately delivered, but love still is perfected. I ma
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Well, he certainly was a disciple. Jd-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 08:43:18 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Was Judas a Christian IYO? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 11:38 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Christian's cannot have demons, Linda. Don't listen to me on this. Just go to your bible and try to find one who did not there. As long as the mind is set on the Spirit to any degree, it can't happen. It didn't even happen in the OT Jd -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:14:19 -0400Subject: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] You are asking the wrong question, as I wonder about these things myselffrom time to time. Can a true Believer have a demon? Be "oppressed"? Bepossessed? What's the difference??? I'd like to hear other opinions. izzy jt: Yes, Yes, and No. We need to understand that there are two kingdom's involved here and the Christian is in the process of transferring from one to the other. We are all oppressed from time to time and God allows the enemy to test us. Years ago I read a book called "Blumhardt's battle" about a German pastor with a severely demonized parishoner. He spent many hours praying with her and declaring the victory of Christ until she was entirely free. jt From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Are all illnesses "demonic" in your opinion -- whether physical or mental ora combination of both? Martin Luther was a textbook bi-polar. Do you thinkthat precluded him from being a "Christian," as in a true believer? Just curious what you think, Bill From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that alot. By the way, the enemies in the land comment leads me to ask if anyoneknows what is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled "Bi-polar"--up one day and low the next, and seem to me to always belooking for someone to be angry with. They are commonly treated with lithium.I've been around someone like that the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, Augu st 20, 2005 12:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us David Miller wrote: The concept that the Holy Spirit is working to convict believers of various sins, such as stealing, lust, covetousness, etc. is dangerous. Judy wrote: Why do you see this as dangerous David? Because people confuse the voice of the Spirit with their own inner convictions. Furthermore, they misinterpret the work of the Holy Spirit, and therefore ascribe works to him which are not his. This leads toerror. Judy wrote: Being conformed to the "image of Christ" does not happen overnight. It is a process, just as salvation itself is a process of past, present, future. It depends which image of Christ you are talking about. A re you talking about him in his now glorified state? You bet that is a process. Are you talking about Christ as an infant lying in a manger? No, that is not a process. That is an event called being born again. Judy wrote: An object lesson is given us in scripture ... when after Israel celebrated the passover and God led them supernaturally to the promised land. They were instructed to go in and take the land which He would give to them little by little. He did not clear the land all at one time because they would not be strong enough to hold it. (Exodus 23:29,30) Good object lesson, but look at it closely. They were no longer slaves in ; Egypt at this point. Once they crossed that Red Sea and the waters killed the Egyptians that were pursuing them, they were sa ved. They had deliverance from bondage to Egypt, which represents our deliverance fromthe bondage of sin to this world system. What they lacked was possessing the promised land, the kingdom of God. This is where faith comes in, and this is where the process of growth is important. We are immediately delivered, but love still is perfected. I may not sin, but that does not mean that I cannot love better. Yesterday I may have helped someone who came looking to me for help, but toda y I might seek out those who need help. Yesterday, I might have known how to lead someone toa hospital to get help, but today I might pray for him to be healedinstantly and thereby better help him in his situation. Jesus at one time did no miracles, but his obedience and love were perfected at that time when hedid ministe
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
NOT a "dig" at all, Judy. Much of your theology is based on speculation as opposed to a particular passage of scripture. That is a fact. Jd-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:21:57 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Couldn't resist that little dig huh JD? I have to agree that demons major in speculation and all kinds of complicated and varied theologies. Do you know some of them are expert in Greek and they just love logic. What they hate is the Word of God. On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:06:24 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes -- you are right about the covenant people. I stand corrected on that one. But, I do not find any Christians demon possessed.the only way you get demons into Christians is via speculation - a major source of information for you. JD From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com What about the ppl Jesus and the disciples cast them out of - they were God's Covenant ppl weren't they? The man in the church at Corinth carrying on with his father's wife had a demon of lust. Just because you don't see itspelled out for you like A-B-C does not mean it's not there. Satan has a right to the ppl who are still choosingthe world. If deliverance is not for the believer - then who is it for? Mind set on spirit? You've got to be kidding. Satan himself comes as an angel of light. Where have you been JD? On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:37:47 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Christian's cannot have demons, Linda. Don't listen to me on this. Just go to your bible and try to find one who did not there. As long as the mind is set on the Spirit to any degree, it can't happen. It didn't even happen in the OT JdFrom: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] You are asking the wrong question, as I wonder about these things myselffrom time to time. Can a true Believer have a demon? Be "oppressed"? Bepossessed? What's the difference??? I'd like to hear other opinions. izzy jt: Yes, Yes, and No. We need to understand that there are two kingdom's involved here and the Christian is in the process of transferring from one to the other. We are all oppressed from time to time and God allows the enemy to test us. Years ago I read a book called "Blumhardt's battle" about a German pastor with a severely demonized parishoner. He spent many hours praying with her and declaring the victory of Christ until she was entirely free. jt From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Are all illnesses "demonic" in your opinion -- whether physical or mental ora combination of both? Martin Luther was a textbook bi-polar. Do you thinkthat precluded him from being a "Christian," as in a true believer? Just curious what you think, Bill From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that alot. By the way, the enemies in the land comment leads me to ask if anyoneknows what is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled "Bi-polar"--up one day and low the next, and seem to me to always belooking for someone to be angry with. They are commonly treated with lithium.I've been around someone like that the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy -Original Me ssage- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, Augu st 20, 2005 12:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us David Miller wrote: The concept that the Holy Spirit is working to convict believers of various sins, such as stealing, lust, covetousness, etc. is dangerous. Judy wrote: Why do you see this as dangerous David? Because people confuse the voice of the Spirit with their own inner convicti< /SPAN>ons. Furthermore, they misinterpret the work of the Holy Spirit, and therefore ascribe works to him which are not his. This leads toerror. Judy wrote: Being conformed to the "image of Christ" does not happen overnight. It is a process, just as salvation itself is a process of past, present, future. It depends which image of Christ you are talking abo ut. Are you talking about him in his now glorified state? You bet that is a process. Are you talking about Christ as an infant lying in a manger ? No, that is not a process. That is an event called being born again. Judy wrote: An object lesson is given us in scripture ... when after Israel celebrated the passover and God led them supernaturally to the promised land. They were instructed to go in and take the land which He would give to them little by little. He did not clear the land all at one time because they would not be strong enough to hold it. (Exodus 23:29,30) Good object lesson, but look at it closely. They were no longer slaves in Egypt at t
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Possibly one of your "free flying" unsubstantiated "facts" JD My beliefs are founded upon God's Word, if you are interested in the basis for any of them feel free to ask. I no longer post them because it has proven to be a waste of my time. I spend time in the Word for my personal study and edification. You don't understand what I believe so are hardly qualified to make such an assumption On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:43:12 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: NOT a "dig" at all, Judy. Much of your theology is based on speculation as opposed to a particular passage of scripture. That is a fact. JdFrom: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com Couldn't resist that little dig huh JD? I have to agree that demons major in speculation and all kinds of complicated and varied theologies. Do you know some of them are expert in Greek and they just love logic. What they hate is the Word of God. On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:06:24 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes -- you are right about the covenant people. I stand corrected on that one. But, I do not find any Christians demon possessed.the only way you get demons into Christians is via speculation - a major source of information for you. JD From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com What about the ppl Jesus and the disciples cast them out of - they were God's Covenant ppl weren't they? The man in the church at Corinth carrying on with his father's wife had a demon of lust. Just because you don't see itspelled out for you like A-B-C does not mean it's not there. Satan has a right to the ppl who are still choosingthe world. If deliverance is not for the believer - then who is it for? Mind set on spirit? You've got to be kidding. Satan himself comes as an angel of light. Where have you been JD? On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:37:47 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Christian's cannot have demons, Linda. Don't listen to me on this. Just go to your bible and try to find one who did not there. As long as the mind is set on the Spirit to any degree, it can't happen. It didn't even happen in the OT JdFrom: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] You are asking the wrong question, as I wonder about these things myselffrom time to time. Can a true Believer have a demon? Be "oppressed"? Bepossessed? What's the difference??? I'd like to hear other opinions. izzy jt: Yes, Yes, and No. We need to understand that there are two kingdom's involved here and the Christian is in the process of transferring from one to the other. We are all oppressed from time to time and God allows the enemy to test us. Years ago I read a book called "Blumhardt's battle" about a German pastor with a severely demonized parishoner. He spent many hours praying with her and declaring the victory of Christ until she was entirely free. jt From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Are all illnesses "demonic" in your opinion -- whether physical or mental ora combination of both? Martin Luther was a textbook bi-polar. Do you thinkthat precluded him from being a "Christian," as in a true believer? Just curious what you think, Bill From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that alot. By the way, the enemies in the land comment leads me to ask if anyoneknows what is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled "Bi-polar"--up one day and low the next, and seem to me to always belooking for someone to be angry with. They are commonly treated with lithium.I've been around someone like that the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy -Original Me ssage- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, Augu st 20, 2005 12:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us David Miller wrote: The concept that the Holy Spirit is working to convict believers of various sins, such as stealing, lust, covetousness, etc. is dangerous. Judy wrote: Why do you see this as dangerous David? Because people confuse the voice of the Spirit with their own inner convicti /SPANons. Furthermore, they misinterpret the work of the Holy Spirit, and therefore ascribe works to him which are no
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
I was wrong on the covenant people thingy -- maybe you are right on this one as well -- scripture please. I missed it. I personally believe that Judas was repentant unto death. he might have been controlled for a while -- but, again, I missed the passage that teaches such. JD-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]il.innglory.orgCc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]il.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:45:39 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us A disciple who died demon possessed - proving thatit can be done JD On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:30:45 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, he certainly was a disciple. Jd. From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] Was Judas a Christian IYO? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Christian's cannot have demons, Linda. Don't listen to me on this. Just go to your bible and try to find one who did not there. As long as the mind is set on the Spirit to any degree, it can't happen. It didn't even happen in the OT Jd From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comFrom: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] You are asking the wrong question, as I wonder about these things myselffrom time to time. Can a true Believer have a demon? Be "oppressed"? Bepossessed? What's the difference??? I'd like to hear other opinions. izzy jt: Yes, Yes, and No. We need to understand that there are two kingdom's involved here and the Christian is in the process of transferring from one to the other. We are all oppressed from time to time and God allows the enemy to test us. Years ago I read a book called "Blumhardt's battle" about a German pastor with a severely demonized parishoner. He spent many hours praying with her and declaring the victory of Christ until she was entirely free. jt From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Are all illnesses "demonic" in your opinion -- whether physical or mental ora combination of both? Martin Luther was a textbook bi-polar. Do you thinkthat precluded him from being a "Christian," as in a true believer? Just curious what you think, Bill From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that alot. By the way, the enemies in the land comment leads me to ask if anyoneknows what is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled "Bi-polar"--up one day and low the next, and seem to me to always belooking for someone to be angry with. They are commonly treated with lithium.I've been around someone like that the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, Augu st 20, 2005 12:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us David Miller wrote: The concept that the Holy Spirit is working to convict believers of various sins, such as stealing, lust, covetousness, etc. is dangerous. Judy wrote: Why do you see this as dangerous David? Because people confuse the voice of the Spirit with their own inner convictions. Furthermore, they misinterpret the work of the Holy Spirit, and therefore ascribe works to him which are not his. This leads toerror. Judy wrote: Being conformed to th e "image of Christ" does not happen overnight. It is a process, just as salvation itself is a process of past, present, future. It depends which image of Christ you are talking about. A re you talking about him in his now glorified state? You bet that is a process. Are you talking about Christ as an infant lying in a manger? No, that is not a process. That is an event called being born again. Judy wrote: An object lesson is given us in scripture ... when after Israel celebrated the passover and God led them supernaturally to the promised land. They were instructed to go in and ta ke the land which He would give to them little by little. He did not clear the land all at one time because they would not be strong enough to hold it. (Exodus 23:29,30) Good object lesson, but look at it closely. They were no longer slaves in ; Egypt at this point. Once they crossed that Red Sea and the waters killed the Egyptians that were pursuing them, they were sa ved. They had deliverance from bondage to Egypt, which represents our deliverance fromthe bondage of sin to this world system. What they lacked was possessing the promised land, the kingdom of God. This is where faith comes in, and this is where the process of growth is important. We are immediately delivered, but love still is perfected. I may not sin, but that does not mean that I cannot love better. Yesterday I may have helped someone who came looking to me for help, but toda y I might seek out those who need help. Yesterday, I might have kn
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
I understand what you have said. Whether it is what you currentlybelieve may be another matter, Judy. I doknow that when you give no scripture when asked, I will conclude you have none. Answer me this: how do you establish Christian demon possession. I do not have to be right about this issue. But I do need scripture and not speculation alone. JD-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:49:24 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Possibly one of your "free flying" unsubstantiated "facts" JD My beliefs are founded upon God's Word, if you are interested in the basis for any of them feel free to ask. I no longer post them because it has proven to be a waste of my time. I spend time in the Word for my personal study and edification. You don't understand what I believe so are hardly qualified to make such an assumption On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:43:12 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: NOT a "dig" at all, Judy. Much of your theology is based on speculation as opposed to a particular passage of scripture. That is a fact. JdFrom: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com Couldn't resist that little dig huh JD? I have to agree that demons major in speculation and all kinds of complicated and varied theologies. Do you know some of them are expert in Greek and they just love logic. What they hate is the Word of God. On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:06:24 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes -- you are right about the covenant people. I stand corrected on that one. But, I do not find any Christians demon possessed.the only way you get demons into Christians is via speculation - a major source of information for you. JD From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com What about the ppl Jesus and the disciples cast them out of - they were God's Covenant ppl weren't they? The man in the church at Corinth carrying on with his father's wife had a demon of lust. Just because you don't see itspelled out for you like A-B-C does not mean it's not there. Satan has a right to the ppl who are still choosingthe world. If deliverance is not for the believer - then who is it for? Mind set on spirit? You've got to be kidding. Satan himself comes as an angel of light. Where have you been JD? On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:37:47 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Christian's cannot have demons, Linda. Don't listen to me on this. Just go to your bible and try to find one who did not there. As long as the mind is set on the Spirit to any degree, it can't happen. It didn't even happen in the OT JdFrom: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] You are asking the wrong question, as I wonder about these things myselffrom time to time. Can a true Believer have a demon? Be "oppressed"? Bepossessed? What's the difference??? I'd like to hear other opinions. izzy jt: Yes, Yes, and No. We need to understand that there are two kingdom's involved here and the Christian is in the process of transferring from one to the other. We are all oppressed from time to time and God allows the enemy to test us. Years ago I read a book called "Blumhardt's battle" about a German pastor with a severely demonized parishoner. He spent many hours praying with her and declaring the victory of Christ until she was entirely free. jt From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Are all illnesses "demonic" in your opinion -- whether physical or mental ora combination of both? Martin Luther was a textbook bi-polar. Do you thinkthat precluded him from being a "Christian," as in a true believer? Just curious what you think, Bill From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that alot. By the way, the enemies in the land comment leads me to ask if anyoneknows what is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled "Bi-polar"--up one day and low the next, and seem to me to always belooking for someone to be angry with. They are commonly treated with lithium.I've been around someone like t hat the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy -Original Me ssage- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, Augu st 20, 2005 12:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us David Miller wrote: The concept that the Holy Spirit is working to convict believers of various si ns, such as stealing, lust, covetousness, etc. is dangerous. Judy wrote: Why do you see this as dangerous David? Because people confuse the voice of the Spirit with their own inner convicti /SPANons. Furthermore, they misinterpret the work of the Holy Spirit, and therefore ascribe works to him which are not his. This leads toerror. Judy
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
James might tell us that they are led away BY THEIR OWN LUSTS. Keep in mind that I am not denying the existence of demons. I just do not believe that a Christian can be demon possessed. The example you give, below, does not describe a disciple. JD -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:40:14 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us And what about those who say they are Christian givingHim lip service but whose hearts are far from Him and who deny Him by their very actions and/or lifestyle? On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:29:05 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I do not make much of the silence of the scripture in terms of dogma. My reference to the absence of a demonic Christian is partnered with a number of biblical references i.e. the binding of the strong man. I would simply thing the answer to the last question in your post to "yes - if we are not talking about rejection of the Lord." -Original Message-From: Charles Perry Locke cpl2602@hotmail.comTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 06:23:23 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us I happen to agree with you, John, but absence of an example in the Bible does not prove it. In your statement, the question might be can a Christian not have his mind set on the Spirit and still be a Christian.From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of usDate: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:37:47 -0400Christian's cannot have demons, Linda. Don't listen to me on this. Just go to your bible and try to find one who did not there. As long as the mind is set on the Spirit to any degree, it can't happen. It didn't even happen in the OTJd-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:14:19 -0400Subject: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of usFrom: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]You are asking the wrong question, as I wonder about these things myselffrom time to time. Can a true Believer have a demon? Be "oppress ed"? Bepossessed? What's the difference??? I'd like to hear other opinions. izzyjt: Yes, Yes, and No. We need to understand that there are two kingd om'sinvolved here and the Christian is in the process of transferring from one tothe other. We are all oppressed from time to time and God allows the enemyto test us. Years ago I read a book called "Blumhardt's battle" about a Germanpastor with a severely demonized parishoner. He spent many hours prayingwith her and declaring the victory of Chr ist until she was entirely free. jtFrom: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Are all illnesses "demonic" in your opinion -- whether physical or mental ora combination of both? Martin Luther was a textbook bi-polar. Do you thinkthat precluded him from being a "Christian," as in a tru e believer?Just curious what you think, BillFrom: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that alot. By the way, the enem ies in the land comment leads me to ask if anyoneknows what is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled "Bi-polar"--up one day and low the next, and seem to me to always belooking for someone to be angry with. They are commonly treated with lithium.I've been around someone like that the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy -Original Messag e- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 12:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us David Miller wrote: The concept that the Holy Spirit is working to convict believers of various sins, such as stealing, lust, covetousness, etc. is dangerous. Judy wrote: Why do you see this as dangerous David? Because people confuse the voice of the Spirit with their own inner ; convictions. Furthermore, they misinterpret the work of the Holy Spirit, and therefore ascribe works to him which are not his. This leads toerror. Judy wrote: Being conformed to the "image of Christ" does not happen overnight. It is a process, just as salvation itself is a process of past, present, future. It depends which image of Christ you are talking about. Are you talking about him in his now glorified state? You bet that is a process. Are you talking about Christ as an infant lying in a manger? No, that is not a process. That is an event called being born again. Judy wrote: An object lesson is given us in scripture ... when after Israel celebrated the passover and God led them supernaturally to the promised la nd. They were instructed to go in and take the land which He would giv
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Judy wrote: I don't believe He has more than one image David; I don't refer to his outer form. I am speaking of His nature and character which has never changed. Consider the following passage: Hebrews 5:8-9 (8) Though he were a Son, YET LEARNED HE OBEDIENCE by the things which he suffered; (9) And BEING MADE PERFECT, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Consider also the following passage: Luke 2:40 (40) And the child GREW, and WAXED STRONG IN SPIRIT, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. Luke 2:52 (52) And Jesus INCREASED IN WISDOM and stature, AND IN FAVOUR WITH GOD and man. Consider also how Jesus prayed for a glory to be given to him which he did not presently have, but had before the world was: John 17:5 (5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. And consider how Jesus gives the glory to his followers, a glory that he then had at that time, but had not previously had, because he speaks about it as something that had been given him: John 17:22 (22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: So, in a nutshell, these passages speak of the image of Jesus changing in the following categories: 1. Obedience 2. Perfection 3. Strength of Spirit 4. Wisdom 5. Favor with God 6. Glory Judy wrote: True David, God had delivered them out of Egypt but it took him a lot longer to get Egypt out of them - a further 40yrs and one whole generation perishing in the wilderness to accomplish this. Not all of them. Joshua and Caleb were ready. It was not God's perfect will for them to die in the wilderness and for their descendants to go into the promised land. They simply did not believe God. Let us NOT be like those who perished in the wilderness, but rather let us believe and be of those who are ready to inhabit the kingdom. David Miller wrote: ... these enemies represent not defects of our own heart, but enemies in the air, principalities and powers and rulers of darkness and spiritual wickedness in high places which inspire people to act contrary to us and to mock us and to hate us and kill us. Judy wrote: I see the analogy in today's Church David, especially if you examine the meaning of the root words for the Canaanite nations the spirits oppressing them are alive and well and in the hearts of church members today. This is true, the analogy does pertain to what you observe, but this is not God's desire for us. While history repeats itself, we are exhorted to learn from history, and not be among those who disbelieved God but rather follow in the steps of those who believed him. We should be as Joshua and Caleb, which is in accordance with the doctrine of the remnant that we have discussed in the past. Judy wrote: I am speaking more of hidden faults and only the Lord knows the number of these. It's what should keep us humble. You mean recurring sins that are meant to keep us humble? Paul spoke of a messenger of Satan that buffeted him to keep him humble, but where are we taught in Scripture that we should expect to sin from time to time in order that we might maintain humility? Jesus was humble without hidden faults and occasional sin in his life, wasn't he? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Izzy wrote: But who knows how much is chemical and how much is spiritual in any given mental illness? Just because certain symptoms are tied to a chemical basis, this does not mean that spirits are not behind it. Smith Wigglesworth's testimony of being healed of appendicitis involves some people who believed that all sickness was caused by evil spirits. He was about to die, refusing to go to doctors, when these people jumped on his stomach and cast the devil out of him. He was healed, and his testimony is that for any case of appendicitis, he cast the devil out in the same way that they did with him, and God healed those cases every time, according to his testimony. I have cast spirits out of bi-polar people before. One man called me to pray for his co-worker who was at work barking like a dog. By the time I could see him, they had hospitalized him and put him on Haldol. I visited him in the hospital and talked with him, but he was all doped up and I really could do nothing. [Note that I'm not saying such is impossible because years earlier I had ministered to a woman who had lost her mind completely in a rehabilitation facility. A nurse had actually called me to come pray for her. I tried to talk to her, but her mind was completely gone. She made no sense whatsoever. I laid my hands on her head and rebuked the devil that had taken over her mind. After ministering to her for 15 minutes, she fell asleep in her bed and I left. The next week I came back and I glorified the Lord as I found that she was fully restored and in her right mind. Her very first words to me when I walked in the door was, Praise the Lord! The nurse told me that she had come to her right mind the very next morning when she had woke up. Hallelujah! Back to the story about the man...] Months later, they released him and he was brought to my house. As I began to pray for him, he began mild convulsing and demons spoke through him. There were seven spirits. The last who spoke through him said that his name was Gunge. I don't know exactly what it means, but the Spirit showed me a meaning of uncleanness and utter wickedness and vileness. The first six spirits came out rather quickly, but the seventh hung on for about 7 hours before he left. The man had vomited many times before he appeared to pass out. This man was a Christian man, by the way. But now, I suppose, we will get back to that definition which none of us seem to agree upon. What is a Christian? I have cast evil spirits out of several Christian women too. As you know, I define a Christian as one who professes to follow Christ, not as someone who is a true believer. Most of these I'm talking about, however, were accepted in their churches and by their families as followers of Christ. Dennis Rader was too, even elected President to represent his Lutheran Christian congregation, so what does that moniker of Christian really tell us? My theology leads me to believe that nobody who is abiding in Christ and trusting in him will have problems with evil spirits. I take Psalm 121 seriously. Look at verse 7: Psalms 121:7 (7) The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul. Those who have faith and confidence in Christ and his Word have nothing to fear and will have victory over evil spirits. Nevertheless, that is the perfect world so to speak. In life, we find some people do fall short, and sometimes those we love the most, and perhaps some of those we respect the most, might fall short and require ministry in ways that we did not expect. Basically, telling me that someone is a Christian does not cause me to dismiss the possibility that they might need deliverance from evil spirits, but those who are trusting in Christ but who might fear that evil spirits might overpower them, I encourage them with Psalm 121 and the like, assuring them that God does not leave them impotent in such situations. I also point out the New Testament passage, 2 Timothy 1:7, that he has given us a spirit of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. I think anyone who believes and has faith has power in Christ. I certainly do not expect any evil spirits to be successful in taking over my mind as I get older. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Interesting and good testimony, David. Would you expect such success in casting out demons in cases of Alzheimer's, where there is atrophied brain tissue? izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 9:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Izzy wrote: But who knows how much is chemical and how much is spiritual in any given mental illness? Just because certain symptoms are tied to a chemical basis, this does not mean that spirits are not behind it. Smith Wigglesworth's testimony of being healed of appendicitis involves some people who believed that all sickness was caused by evil spirits. He was about to die, refusing to go to doctors, when these people jumped on his stomach and cast the devil out of him. He was healed, and his testimony is that for any case of appendicitis, he cast the devil out in the same way that they did with him, and God healed those cases every time, according to his testimony. I have cast spirits out of bi-polar people before. One man called me to pray for his co-worker who was at work barking like a dog. By the time I could see him, they had hospitalized him and put him on Haldol. I visited him in the hospital and talked with him, but he was all doped up and I really could do nothing. [Note that I'm not saying such is impossible because years earlier I had ministered to a woman who had lost her mind completely in a rehabilitation facility. A nurse had actually called me to come pray for her. I tried to talk to her, but her mind was completely gone. She made no sense whatsoever. I laid my hands on her head and rebuked the devil that had taken over her mind. After ministering to her for 15 minutes, she fell asleep in her bed and I left. The next week I came back and I glorified the Lord as I found that she was fully restored and in her right mind. Her very first words to me when I walked in the door was, Praise the Lord! The nurse told me that she had come to her right mind the very next morning when she had woke up. Hallelujah! Back to the story about the man...] Months later, they released him and he was brought to my house. As I began to pray for him, he began mild convulsing and demons spoke through him. There were seven spirits. The last who spoke through him said that his name was Gunge. I don't know exactly what it means, but the Spirit showed me a meaning of uncleanness and utter wickedness and vileness. The first six spirits came out rather quickly, but the seventh hung on for about 7 hours before he left. The man had vomited many times before he appeared to pass out. This man was a Christian man, by the way. But now, I suppose, we will get back to that definition which none of us seem to agree upon. What is a Christian? I have cast evil spirits out of several Christian women too. As you know, I define a Christian as one who professes to follow Christ, not as someone who is a true believer. Most of these I'm talking about, however, were accepted in their churches and by their families as followers of Christ. Dennis Rader was too, even elected President to represent his Lutheran Christian congregation, so what does that moniker of Christian really tell us? My theology leads me to believe that nobody who is abiding in Christ and trusting in him will have problems with evil spirits. I take Psalm 121 seriously. Look at verse 7: Psalms 121:7 (7) The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul. Those who have faith and confidence in Christ and his Word have nothing to fear and will have victory over evil spirits. Nevertheless, that is the perfect world so to speak. In life, we find some people do fall short, and sometimes those we love the most, and perhaps some of those we respect the most, might fall short and require ministry in ways that we did not expect. Basically, telling me that someone is a Christian does not cause me to dismiss the possibility that they might need deliverance from evil spirits, but those who are trusting in Christ but who might fear that evil spirits might overpower them, I encourage them with Psalm 121 and the like, assuring them that God does not leave them impotent in such situations. I also point out the New Testament passage, 2 Timothy 1:7, that he has given us a spirit of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. I think anyone who believes and has faith has power in Christ. I certainly do not expect any evil spirits to be successful in taking over my mind as I get older. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Izzy wrote: David, I don't understand your meaning here. Jn: 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. Are you saying the Holy Spirit does not convict anyone of sin, or just doesn't convict Believers of sin? Sin is, in fact, unbelief-is it not? Or it could be ignorance. If the Holy Spirit doesn't convict you of sin, who does? Faith in Christ removes the problem of sin. There is nothing for the Holy Spirit to do in the life of the believer, except reveal to him the righteousness of Christ, causing him to walk in it. The concept that the Holy Spirit is working to convict believers of various sins, such as stealing, lust, covetousness, etc. is dangerous. In regards to this passage, look carefully at verse 9 10. In verse 9, he reproves (convinces) of sin, because they believe not on me. In other words, this is a work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the unbeliever. The Holy Spirit's operation upon those who do not believe on Christ is to convince them of their sin. This is often done in concert and connection with the law, as well as through men (apostles, prophets, etc.) anointed with the Holy Ghost, as well as directly upon their conscience. In verse 10, we read of his work with righteousness, because I go to my Father. Jesus told us that in the life of the believer, the Holy Spirit's job is to take from the Father and to show it unto us. Also, it is to remind us of his teachings. Therefore, the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer is to reveal the person, teachings, and righteousness of Christ. For him, at the same time, to be convincing us of sin would be counterproductive and contrary to his nature. If the believer happens to become aware of sin in his life, it is not because the Holy Spirit is working to convince him and reprove him of it. It is more along the lines of the Holy Spirit revealing all that is Christ, and anything in our life that is not that becomes glaring. We react to the spots and blemishes as we see how holy Christ is and how holy we ought to be. We are like Peter saying, Lord, depart from me, for I am a sinful man. Therefore, I say that the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the unbeliever is to convince and reprove them of sin, whereas the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer, is to reveal to them the righteousness of Christ which they are to walk in. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Debbie, you wrote these words in a post ot David: I was very conscious, when real faith and recognition came, of being given it (as passage into Narnia is given). Yes, it really was like beingapproached byan invisible someone who knocked me over with a wave of love In John 3:21, "the light" is that which manifests the fact that our workings HAVE BEEN in God (all along.) The word "manifest" or "revealed" is an aorist subj PASSIVE verb the action is done to us by another.The syntactical construct of this verse not only ties in with your statement above but (IMO) serves or can serve as a summary statement of the fact of reconciliation.Because ofthe Incarnatefunctioning, the barriers having been torn down by that which is the Light o f this world,we are made aware (by another) that our sense of aloneness, of desertion if you will, is and has been untrue all along. I will never forget how defeated I felt, years ago, lying fully outstretched on my office floor, begging God to indwell me with His spirit (I am praying this prayer as a convert and faithful child of God, mind you). That was in the1970's.Sometime in late 1997, it came to me that I God had been at work in me from the beginning. That realization was given to me. I(me, myself and I) did not "figure" it out. A subjective claim, to be sure, but one that Torrance would agree with, I think. So, if the discussion of new birthin John chapter 3 extends to verse 21, new birth is not am event but a process that culminates in that momentI come to therevelatorylight that is Jesus Christ. John 1:18 makes it clear that Christ is the explanation of God the Father. -Original Message-From: Debbie Sawczak debbie@kest.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 01:01:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us This way of looking at it doesn't seem impossible to me. The operative point for me in your expositionis "all that I have done has been accomplished in God"--i.e., not in and of myself, as a result of my spiritual perspicuity. This reminds me of a verse I have on my fridge: All that we have accomplished, you have done for us. (Isaiah 26:12) Debbie - Original Message - From: knpraise@aol.com To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 7:16 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us I did not make myself clear - I think I agree with what you sayingin the asking . the version I used is the NKJV, for what it is worth. When I look at the passage, I see it saying thatI "do" the truthbefore I get to the light -- whatever that is. Now, at this point "light" is introduced into the equation. That term "light" can mean Jesus or simply "exposure." I get to make a choice - knowing that both decisions will have their merits. I go to verses 18 and 19. Verse 18 speaks of judgment and Christ. Verse 19 speaks of judgment and light (that light HAS COME into the world). I decided in favor of "the Light" because verse 19 suggests that this light was not always in the world while I know that "exposure" was and is. With that choice in mind, I now have a reading that presents this: I do the truth and in this doing (and I believe as a result of doing the truth, although this passage does not address this per se) I come to the Light AND IN THIS LIGHT, it is rev ealed that ALL THAT IHAVE DONE has been accomplished in God.I see John 3:1-21 as a part of the same context. When I read this passage, I see no break in Christ's explaining. I conclude, then, that this "new birth" accrues when I come to realize, in the Light, that God has been and is the motivating force in my life for the good will of God. Before the cross or Christ, I am autonomous (a lie). After I come to Christ (He does give purpose to all that I do, after all),I see ALL THAT I HAVE DONE as being in God.I suddenly(if you will) realize that I have never been alone. He has always been there. The "new birth," then, for me, is not an experience but a realization. I lived as a disciple for 40 plus years before "the lights" went on. And this light grows brighter by the day, it seems, as I associate with those who may be further down that road than I at some point (in this forum - at times each member of the forum [yes, I have even been touched by deegan]. I think it important that verse 21 is specifically a part of the context beginning in verse one. I am reading (slowly and deliberately) the MOC this weekend. I passionately agree with Torrance when he speaks of a knowing thatgoes beyond or outside the pale of logic. With that in mind, I acknowledge that the above may be only an illustration of a little too much analyticalism (my apologies to the linguist). But such is how I think when it comes to exegetical surmisings !!! I am open to a differing opinion and do not offer th
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
John, I think I am understanding you. I think the different ways of speaking of this may be quite literally a matter of perspective, timewise. I may be confusing timing with source. Check what I said in the second paragraph of my reply to Judy.Am I close? Debbie - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 11:40 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Debbie, you wrote these words in a post ot David: I was very conscious, when real faith and recognition came, of being given it (as passage into Narnia is given). Yes, it really was like beingapproached byan invisible someone who knocked me over with a wave of love In John 3:21, "the light" is that which manifests the fact that our workings HAVE BEEN in God (all along.) The word "manifest" or "revealed" is an aorist subj PASSIVE verb the action is done to us by another.The syntactical construct of this verse not only ties in with your statement above but (IMO) serves or can serve as a summary statement of the fact of reconciliation.Because ofthe Incarnatefunctioning, the barriers having been torn down by that which is the Light o f this world,we are made aware (by another) that our sense of aloneness, of desertion if you will, is and has been untrue all along. I will never forget how defeated I felt, years ago, lying fully outstretched on my office floor, begging God to indwell me with His spirit (I am praying this prayer as a convert and faithful child of God, mind you). That was in the1970's.Sometime in late 1997, it came to me that I God had been at work in me from the beginning. That realization was given to me. I(me, myself and I) did not "figure" it out. A subjective claim, to be sure, but one that Torrance would agree with, I think. So, if the discussion of new birthin John chapter 3 extends to verse 21, new birth is not am event but a process that culminates in that momentI come to therevelatorylight that is Jesus Christ. John 1:18 makes it clear that Christ is the explanation of God the Father. -Original Message-From: Debbie Sawczak debbie@kest.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 01:01:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us This way of looking at it doesn't seem impossible to me. The operative point for me in your expositionis "all that I have done has been accomplished in God"--i.e., not in and of myself, as a result of my spiritual perspicuity. This reminds me of a verse I have on my fridge: All that we have accomplished, you have done for us. (Isaiah 26:12) Debbie - Original Message - From: knpraise@aol.com To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 7:16 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us I did not make myself clear - I think I agree with what you sayingin the asking . the version I used is the NKJV, for what it is worth. When I look at the passage, I see it saying thatI "do" the truthbefore I get to the light -- whatever that is. Now, at this point "light" is introduced into the equation. That term "light" can mean Jesus or simply "exposure." I get to make a choice - knowing that both decisions will have their merits. I go to verses 18 and 19. Verse 18 speaks of judgment and Christ. Verse 19 speaks of judgment and light (that light HAS COME into the world). I decided in favor of "the Light" because verse 19 suggests that this light was not always in the world while I know that "exposure" was and is. With that choice in mind, I now have a reading that presents this: I do the truth and in this doing (and I believe as a result of doing the truth, although this passage does not address this per se) I come to the Light AND IN THIS LIGHT, it is rev ealed that ALL THAT IHAVE DONE has been accomplished in God.I see John 3:1-21 as a part of the same context. When I read this passage, I see no break in Christ's explaining. I conclude, then, that this "new birth" accrues when I come to realize, in the Light, that God has been and is the motivating force in my life for the good will of God. Before the cross or Christ, I am autonomous (a lie). After I come to Christ (He does give purpose to all that I do, after all),I see ALL THAT I HAVE DONE as being in God.I suddenly(if you will) realize that I have never been alone. He has always been there. The "new birth," then, for me, is not an experience but a realization. I lived as a di
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Debbie wrote: Yes, it really was like being approached by an invisible someone who knocked me over with a wave of love. Yes, I understand that he once was not there as he now was, but in what way did you finally perceive him? Was it external, as by one of the five senses of your physical body (touch, smell, taste, hearing, sight), or was it internal, in your heart? Debbie wrote: If anything, the candle/lamp/whatever seems to be showing God the person, not the other way around. Yes... Debbie wrote: ... I'm just saying the verse does not argue unambiguously that we can arrive at the truth without revelation. Oh, I think it does take revelation. Perhaps you have been misunderstanding me. In talking about the conscience, and also about the spirit in which the conscience exists, I am only mentioning a doorway through which all this operates. I view the conscience like a candle, that has been lit all along. Revelation is like a shining light, but is in agreement with the candle. Debbie wrote: I think it's interesting that the word candle is used (or lamp in some translations), not the light or flame itself. Maybe the candle or lamp does show the person who she really is in the sight of God, but is something that gets lit by the Lord--i.e., there is nothing shining until he lights it. Hm? That's not how I read the evidence nor the Scriptures, but I agree that the light becomes much brighter after he has revealed himself to us. Debbie wrote: John 7:38 is given explicit interpretation by the apostle in the very next verse. Rivers of living water flowing from within refers to the believer being indwelt by the Holy Spirit (a state of affairs, moreover, that was still anticipated, since the Spirit had not yet been given); no problem for me. You mentioned how you had problems with the rest of the verse (Prov. 20:27). I thought you were talking about the searching all the inward parts of the belly aspect. You seemed to think this was contrary to something I was saying? We are having some major disconnects in communicating here. I think you think I am saying something that I'm not saying. Debbie wrote: Does this verse teach that rivers of living water (equivalent to understanding of the truth, since that's what's in question in this discussion) are inherent within every human, before an encounter with Christ? No. I do not think understanding of the truth is the equivalent of rivers of living water. Neither do I think such is inherent within every human. Another analogy concerned a well of water springing up into life everlasting. This is somewhat different than rivers of living water. We start with a candle, but we eventually get great light. That's my perception. Debbie wrote: As for I Cor. 2:10-11, it too supports what I am saying! It talks about things (v 9) which have not entered our hearts (things beyond the mind of man in the translation I am reading) until the Spirit has revealed them to us. We can know our own spirit, according to this passage, but none of us knows the thoughts of God--only the Spirit of God does, hence he has to reveal them to us. Isn't this what I've been saying? I'm not disagreeing with you. I am trying to augment your understanding. The 1 Cor. passage speaks of the spirit of man which knows and how the Spirit of God reveals, searching all things, the deep things of God (compare Prov. 20:27, 'searching all the inward parts of the belly.'). Debbie wrote: About conscience: the conscience of devout Hindus I have met tells them they ought to have sacrificed to Hanuman that morning. The conscience of some Muslims tells them they ought to give their lives to blow up infidels. What did Paul's conscience prompt him to do before he met Christ on the road to Damascus? The voice of the conscience is distorted in these cases. The conscience affirms the need to sacrifice to God, but people who hold this truth in unrighteousness will sacrifice to false gods and even offer human sacrifices. The conscience affirms the need to deny self and to give one's life for the good of others, but those who hold the truth in unrighteousness blow themselves up to kill the infidels. Paul's conscience surely affirmed his need to zealously do God's work, but holding that truth in unrighteousness, he persecuted Christians, not because of what his conscience told him, but because of his ignorance. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
OK, David. Thanks. I think we agree that the means
of lightingis not the source, that the ultimate source is God,
and that we need revelation. That's far enough. The thinking
continues!
Debbie
Yes, I understand that he once was not there
as he now was, but in what way did you finally perceive him? Was
it external, as by one of the five senses of your physical body (touch,
smell, taste, hearing, sight), or was it internal, in your
heart? Debbie wrote: If anything, the
candle/lamp/whatever seems to be showing God the person, not the
other way around. Yes... Debbie
wrote: ... I'm just saying the verse does not argue
unambiguously that we can arrive at the truth without
revelation. Oh, I think it does take revelation. Perhaps
you have been misunderstanding me. In talking about the
conscience, and also about the spirit in which the conscience exists, I
am only mentioning a doorway through which all this operates. I
view the conscience like a candle, that has been lit all along.
Revelation is like a shining light, but is in agreement with the candle.
Debbie wrote: I think it's interesting that the word candle
is used (or lamp in some translations), not the light or flame
itself. Maybe the candle or lamp does show the person
who she really is in the sight of God, but is something
that gets lit by the Lord--i.e., there is nothing shining
until he lights it. Hm? That's not how I read the
evidence nor the Scriptures, but I agree that the light becomes much
brighter after he has revealed himself to us. Debbie
wrote: John 7:38 is given explicit interpretation by the
apostle in the very next verse. Rivers of living water flowing
from within refers to the believer being indwelt by the Holy
Spirit (a state of affairs, moreover, that was still anticipated,
since the Spirit had not yet been given); no problem for me.
You mentioned how you had problems with the rest of the verse (Prov.
20:27). I thought you were talking about the "searching all the inward
parts of the belly" aspect. You seemed to think this was contrary
to something I was saying? We are having some major disconnects
in communicating here. I think you think I am saying something
that I'm not saying. Debbie wrote: Does this verse
teach that rivers of living water (equivalent to understanding of
the truth, since that's what's in question in this discussion) are
inherent within every human, before an encounter with Christ?
No. I do not think understanding of the truth is the
"equivalent" of rivers of living water. Neither do I think such
is inherent within every human. Another analogy concerned a
well of water springing up into life everlasting. This is
somewhat different than rivers of living water. We start with a
candle, but we eventually get great light. That's my
perception. Debbie wrote: As for I Cor. 2:10-11, it
too supports what I am saying! It talks about things (v 9) which
have not entered our hearts ("things beyond the mind of man" in the
translation I am reading) until the Spirit has revealed them to
us. We can know our own spirit, according to this
passage, but none of us knows the thoughts of God--only the
Spirit of God does, hence he has to reveal them to us. Isn't
this what I've been saying? I'm not disagreeing
with you. I am trying to augment your understanding. The 1 Cor.
passage speaks of the spirit of man which "knows" and how the Spirit of
God reveals, searching all things, the deep things of God (compare
Prov. 20:27, 'searching all the inward parts of the belly.').
Debbie wrote: About conscience: the conscience of devout Hindus I
have met tells them they ought to have sacrificed to Hanuman
that morning. The conscience of some Muslims tells them
they ought to give their lives to blow up infidels. What did
Paul's conscience prompt him to do before he met Christ on
the road to Damascus? The voice of the conscience
is distorted in these cases. The conscience affirms the need to
sacrifice to God, but people who hold this truth in unrighteousness
will sacrifice to false gods and even offer human sacrifices. The
conscience affirms the need to deny self and to give one's life for the
good of others, but those who hold the truth in unrighteousness blow
themselves up to kill the infidels. Paul's conscience surely affirmed
his need to zealously do God's work, but holding that truth in
unrighteousness, he persecuted Christians, not because of what his
conscience told him, but because of his ignorance. Peace be
with you. David Miller. -- "Let your
speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought
to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you
will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
and he will be
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
David Miller wrote: The concept that the Holy Spirit is working to convict believers of various sins, such as stealing, lust, covetousness, etc. is dangerous. Judy wrote: Why do you see this as dangerous David? Because people confuse the voice of the Spirit with their own inner convictions. Furthermore, they misinterpret the work of the Holy Spirit, and therefore ascribe works to him which are not his. This leads to error. Judy wrote: Being conformed to the image of Christ does not happen overnight. It is a process, just as salvation itself is a process of past, present, future. It depends which image of Christ you are talking about. Are you talking about him in his now glorified state? You bet that is a process. Are you talking about Christ as an infant lying in a manger? No, that is not a process. That is an event called being born again. Judy wrote: An object lesson is given us in scripture ... when after Israel celebrated the passover and God led them supernaturally to the promised land. They were instructed to go in and take the land which He would give to them little by little. He did not clear the land all at one time because they would not be strong enough to hold it. (Exodus 23:29,30) Good object lesson, but look at it closely. They were no longer slaves in Egypt at this point. Once they crossed that Red Sea and the waters killed the Egyptians that were pursuing them, they were saved. They had deliverance from bondage to Egypt, which represents our deliverance from the bondage of sin to this world system. What they lacked was possessing the promised land, the kingdom of God. This is where faith comes in, and this is where the process of growth is important. We are immediately delivered, but love still is perfected. I may not sin, but that does not mean that I cannot love better. Yesterday I may have helped someone who came looking to me for help, but today I might seek out those who need help. Yesterday, I might have known how to lead someone to a hospital to get help, but today I might pray for him to be healed instantly and thereby better help him in his situation. Jesus at one time did no miracles, but his obedience and love were perfected at that time when he did minister in miracles and healed the sick, and ultimately gave his life a ransom for all, the ultimate expression of love which he did when he was more than 33 years old, not when he was 5 years old. Judy wrote: Likewise when we surrender our lives to Christ we also have enemies on the land (our heart) ... You have the wrong analogy here, Judy. The enemies of our own heart were when we were in Egypt, or the unbelief when God tells us to possess his kingdom and we say such is impossible. The enemies in the land, the Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites... these enemies represent not defects of our own heart, but enemies in the air, principalities and powers and rulers of darkness and spiritual wickedness in high places which inspire people to act contrary to us and to mock us and to hate us and kill us. Judy wrote: Those of us who are honest will admit that we were walking in most of Galatians 5:19,21 if not all. WERE is the proper tense. Why do you try and resurrect it to present tense? Judy wrote: That the land of our heart is inhabited by some enemies is evident by what comes out of our mouths (at times). Nothing defiling comes out of my mouth anymore. Once it had, yes, but not anymore. I'm sure my rebukes or corrections appear otherwise to some on this list, as they like to point to such things as evidence of my sinfulness, but God knows what is good and right and what is not. Men of wickedness lack discernment of such things. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Precisely, my dear. In fact, it bears repeating: Perhaps you misunderstood part of my recent little dialogue with JD. I think it's truethat we receivemuch from Godbefore weare even really awareof it, and only later it dawns on us that he was at work in us. Butthat doesn't mean it was me all along, or that everything I did all my life was right. It means that if Idid anyliving ofthe truth before I knew it,that too is because of him. It seems to be that John 3:21 and Phil 2:12-13 work very well together. I believe that to deny this measure of grace, God's working in us, is to the add to the destructive nature of the lie that is known as "roughed individualism" (read:autonomy). Jd-Original Message-From: Debbie Sawczak debbie@kest.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 12:11:26 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us John, I think I am understanding you. I think the different ways of speaking of this may be quite literally a matter of perspective, timewise. I may be confusing timing with source. Check what I said in the second paragraph of my reply to Judy.Am I close? Debbie - Original Message - From: knpraise@aol.com To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 11:40 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Debbie, you wrote these words in a post ot David: I was very conscious, when real faith and recognition came, of being given it (as passage into Narnia is given). Yes, it really was like beingapproached byan invisible someone who knocked me over with a wave of love In John 3:21, "the light" is that which manifests the fact that our workings HAVE BEEN in God (all along.) The word "manifest" or "revealed" is an aorist subj PASSIVE verb the action is done to us by another.The syntactical construct of this verse not only ties in with your statement above but (IMO) serves or can serve as a summary statement of the fact of reconciliation.Because ofthe Incarnatefunctioning, the barriers having been torn down by that which is the Light o f this world,we are made aware (by another) that our sense of aloneness, of desertion if you will, is and has been untrue all along. I will never forget how defeated I felt, years ago, lying fully outstretched on my office floor, begging God to indwell me with His spirit (I am praying this prayer as a convert and faithful child of God, mind you). That was in the1970's.Sometime in late 1997, it came to me that I God had been at work in me from the beginning. That realization was given to me. I(me, myself and I) did not "figure" it out. A subjective claim, to be sure, but one that Torrance would agree with, I think. So, if the discussion of new birthin John chapter 3 extends to verse 21, new birth is not am event but a process that culminates in that momentI come to therevelatorylight that is Jesus Christ. John 1:18 makes it clear that Christ is the explanation of God the Father. -Original Message-From: Debbie Sawczak debbie@kest.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 01:01:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us This way of looking at it doesn't seem impossible to me. The operative point for me in your expositionis "all that I have done has been accomplished in God"--i.e., not in and of myself, as a result of my spiritual perspicuity. This reminds me of a verse I have on my fridge: All that we have accomplished, you have done for us. (Isaiah 26:12) Debbie - Original Message - From: knpraise@aol.com To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 7:16 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us I did not make myself clear - I think I agree with what you sayingin the asking . the version I used is the NKJV, for what it is worth. When I look at the passage, I see it saying thatI "do" the truthbefore I get to the light -- whatever that is. Now, at this point "light" is introduced into the equation. That term "light" can mean Jesus or simply "exposure." I get to make a choice - knowing that both decisions will have their merits. I go to verses 18 and 19. Verse 18 speaks of judgment and Christ. Verse 19 speaks of judgment and light (that light HAS COME into the world). I decided in favor of "the Light" because verse 19 suggests that this light was not always in the world while I know that "exposure" was and is. With that choice in mind, I now have a readin g that presents this: I do the truth and in this doing (and I believe as a result of doing the truth, although this passage does not address this per se) I come to the Light AND IN THIS LIGHT, it is rev ealed that ALL THAT IHAVE DONE has been accomplished in God.I see John 3:1-21 as a part of the same context. When I read this passage, I see no break in Christ's explaining. I conclude, then,
RE: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that a lot. By the way, the enemies in the land comment leads me to ask if anyone knows what is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled Bi-polar--up one day and low the next, and seem to me to always be looking for someone to be angry with. They are commonly treated with lithium. I've been around someone like that the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 12:00 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us David Miller wrote: The concept that the Holy Spirit is working to convict believers of various sins, such as stealing, lust, covetousness, etc. is dangerous. Judy wrote: Why do you see this as dangerous David? Because people confuse the voice of the Spirit with their own inner convictions. Furthermore, they misinterpret the work of the Holy Spirit, and therefore ascribe works to him which are not his. This leads to error. Judy wrote: Being conformed to the image of Christ does not happen overnight. It is a process, just as salvation itself is a process of past, present, future. It depends which image of Christ you are talking about. Are you talking about him in his now glorified state? You bet that is a process. Are you talking about Christ as an infant lying in a manger? No, that is not a process. That is an event called being born again. Judy wrote: An object lesson is given us in scripture ... when after Israel celebrated the passover and God led them supernaturally to the promised land. They were instructed to go in and take the land which He would give to them little by little. He did not clear the land all at one time because they would not be strong enough to hold it. (Exodus 23:29,30) Good object lesson, but look at it closely. They were no longer slaves in Egypt at this point. Once they crossed that Red Sea and the waters killed the Egyptians that were pursuing them, they were saved. They had deliverance from bondage to Egypt, which represents our deliverance from the bondage of sin to this world system. What they lacked was possessing the promised land, the kingdom of God. This is where faith comes in, and this is where the process of growth is important. We are immediately delivered, but love still is perfected. I may not sin, but that does not mean that I cannot love better. Yesterday I may have helped someone who came looking to me for help, but today I might seek out those who need help. Yesterday, I might have known how to lead someone to a hospital to get help, but today I might pray for him to be healed instantly and thereby better help him in his situation. Jesus at one time did no miracles, but his obedience and love were perfected at that time when he did minister in miracles and healed the sick, and ultimately gave his life a ransom for all, the ultimate expression of love which he did when he was more than 33 years old, not when he was 5 years old. Judy wrote: Likewise when we surrender our lives to Christ we also have enemies on the land (our heart) ... You have the wrong analogy here, Judy. The enemies of our own heart were when we were in Egypt, or the unbelief when God tells us to possess his kingdom and we say such is impossible. The enemies in the land, the Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites... these enemies represent not defects of our own heart, but enemies in the air, principalities and powers and rulers of darkness and spiritual wickedness in high places which inspire people to act contrary to us and to mock us and to hate us and kill us. Judy wrote: Those of us who are honest will admit that we were walking in most of Galatians 5:19,21 if not all. WERE is the proper tense. Why do you try and resurrect it to present tense? Judy wrote: That the land of our heart is inhabited by some enemies is evident by what comes out of our mouths (at times). Nothing defiling comes out of my mouth anymore. Once it had, yes, but not anymore. I'm sure my rebukes or corrections appear otherwise to some on this list, as they like to point to such things as evidence of my sinfulness, but God knows what is good and right and what is not. Men of wickedness lack discernment of such things. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Are all illnesses demonic in your opinion -- whether physical or mental or a combination of both? Martin Luther was a textbook bi-polar. Do you think that precluded him from being a Christian, as in a true believer? Just curious what you think, Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 8:38 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that a lot. By the way, the enemies in the land comment leads me to ask if anyone knows what is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled Bi-polar--up one day and low the next, and seem to me to always be looking for someone to be angry with. They are commonly treated with lithium. I've been around someone like that the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 12:00 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us David Miller wrote: The concept that the Holy Spirit is working to convict believers of various sins, such as stealing, lust, covetousness, etc. is dangerous. Judy wrote: Why do you see this as dangerous David? Because people confuse the voice of the Spirit with their own inner convictions. Furthermore, they misinterpret the work of the Holy Spirit, and therefore ascribe works to him which are not his. This leads to error. Judy wrote: Being conformed to the image of Christ does not happen overnight. It is a process, just as salvation itself is a process of past, present, future. It depends which image of Christ you are talking about. Are you talking about him in his now glorified state? You bet that is a process. Are you talking about Christ as an infant lying in a manger? No, that is not a process. That is an event called being born again. Judy wrote: An object lesson is given us in scripture ... when after Israel celebrated the passover and God led them supernaturally to the promised land. They were instructed to go in and take the land which He would give to them little by little. He did not clear the land all at one time because they would not be strong enough to hold it. (Exodus 23:29,30) Good object lesson, but look at it closely. They were no longer slaves in Egypt at this point. Once they crossed that Red Sea and the waters killed the Egyptians that were pursuing them, they were saved. They had deliverance from bondage to Egypt, which represents our deliverance from the bondage of sin to this world system. What they lacked was possessing the promised land, the kingdom of God. This is where faith comes in, and this is where the process of growth is important. We are immediately delivered, but love still is perfected. I may not sin, but that does not mean that I cannot love better. Yesterday I may have helped someone who came looking to me for help, but today I might seek out those who need help. Yesterday, I might have known how to lead someone to a hospital to get help, but today I might pray for him to be healed instantly and thereby better help him in his situation. Jesus at one time did no miracles, but his obedience and love were perfected at that time when he did minister in miracles and healed the sick, and ultimately gave his life a ransom for all, the ultimate expression of love which he did when he was more than 33 years old, not when he was 5 years old. Judy wrote: Likewise when we surrender our lives to Christ we also have enemies on the land (our heart) ... You have the wrong analogy here, Judy. The enemies of our own heart were when we were in Egypt, or the unbelief when God tells us to possess his kingdom and we say such is impossible. The enemies in the land, the Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites... these enemies represent not defects of our own heart, but enemies in the air, principalities and powers and rulers of darkness and spiritual wickedness in high places which inspire people to act contrary to us and to mock us and to hate us and kill us. Judy wrote: Those of us who are honest will admit that we were walking in most of Galatians 5:19,21 if not all. WERE is the proper tense. Why do you try and resurrect it to present tense? Judy wrote: That the land of our heart is inhabited by some enemies is evident by what comes out of our mouths (at times). Nothing defiling comes out of my mouth anymore. Once it had, yes, but not anymore. I'm sure my rebukes or corrections appear otherwise to some on this list, as they like to point
RE: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
And, BTW, I do not believe all illnesses are demonic. I do think they are one result of sin in the world, however. When the Lord restores His kingdom there will be no more sickness. izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 8:59 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us You are asking the wrong question, as I wonder about these things myself from time to time. Can a true Believer have a demon? Be oppressed? Be possessed? What's the difference??? I'd like to hear other opinions. izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 8:45 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Are all illnesses demonic in your opinion -- whether physical or mental or a combination of both? Martin Luther was a textbook bi-polar. Do you think that precluded him from being a Christian, as in a true believer? Just curious what you think, Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 8:38 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that a lot. By the way, the enemies in the land comment leads me to ask if anyone knows what is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled Bi-polar--up one day and low the next, and seem to me to always be looking for someone to be angry with. They are commonly treated with lithium. I've been around someone like that the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 12:00 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us David Miller wrote: The concept that the Holy Spirit is working to convict believers of various sins, such as stealing, lust, covetousness, etc. is dangerous. Judy wrote: Why do you see this as dangerous David? Because people confuse the voice of the Spirit with their own inner convictions. Furthermore, they misinterpret the work of the Holy Spirit, and therefore ascribe works to him which are not his. This leads to error. Judy wrote: Being conformed to the image of Christ does not happen overnight. It is a process, just as salvation itself is a process of past, present, future. It depends which image of Christ you are talking about. Are you talking about him in his now glorified state? You bet that is a process. Are you talking about Christ as an infant lying in a manger? No, that is not a process. That is an event called being born again. Judy wrote: An object lesson is given us in scripture ... when after Israel celebrated the passover and God led them supernaturally to the promised land. They were instructed to go in and take the land which He would give to them little by little. He did not clear the land all at one time because they would not be strong enough to hold it. (Exodus 23:29,30) Good object lesson, but look at it closely. They were no longer slaves in Egypt at this point. Once they crossed that Red Sea and the waters killed the Egyptians that were pursuing them, they were saved. They had deliverance from bondage to Egypt, which represents our deliverance from the bondage of sin to this world system. What they lacked was possessing the promised land, the kingdom of God. This is where faith comes in, and this is where the process of growth is important. We are immediately delivered, but love still is perfected. I may not sin, but that does not mean that I cannot love better. Yesterday I may have helped someone who came looking to me for help, but today I might seek out those who need help. Yesterday, I might have known how to lead someone to a hospital to get help, but today I might pray for him to be healed instantly and thereby better help him in his situation. Jesus at one time did no miracles, but his obedience and love were perfected at that time when he did minister in miracles and healed the sick, and ultimately gave his life a ransom for all, the ultimate expression of love which he did when he was more than 33 years old, not when he was 5 years old. Judy wrote: Likewise when we surrender our lives to Christ we also have enemies on the land (our heart) ... You have the wrong analogy here, Judy. The enemies of our own heart were when we were in Egypt, or the unbelief when God tells us to possess his kingdom and we say such is impossible. The enemies in the land, the Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites
RE: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
So why do you put Christian in quotesis she or isnt she? I know I struggled for years with debilitating depression. The only therapy I ever had was through seeking after the Lord with all my heart, and eventually He healed and delivered me. It doesnt mean I cant get depressed today, but thats a whole different animal from the blackness that debilitates you with such overwhelming hopelessness that it takes concentrated effort just to take the next breath. I praise God for His mercy and faithfulness. I was a believer, but satan had his hands around my throat. The Lord is mightier, but I was set free overnight by any means. I guess I had to learn on my own when to recognize it as the enemy and rebuke him. I guess with the demonic thing I notice about the couple of women Ive known who were bipolar personalities is the anger thingyou know, always trying to be offended or to pick an argument. Thats what really makes me uncomfortable. I havent had time to think it through, but I can tell when I sense something demonic. And Im not sure how to react to it. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 8:58 PM To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that a lot. By the way, the enemies in the land comment leads me to ask if anyone knows what is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled Bi-polar--up one day and low the next, and seem to me to always be looking for someone to be angry with. They are commonly treated with lithium. I've been around someone like that the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy I have a long time christian friend who has been diagnosed bi-polar also and I have seen her in good times and bad times and hospitalized twice for months at a time. My friend had 10yrs of freedom from meds until 1989 when hurricane Gloria hit the coast and everyone around her including her mother and daughter were freaking out over it. B would tell you that this is definitely demonic and in her case a stronghold of fear which has controlled her for most of her life. She hasunderstanding and has made some progress. This has to do with what I have been discussing with David. Some of these seeming comfort zones are not easy for ppl to part with and spirits such as self pity stroke the flesh and posture as friends so identifying them and seeing them as enemies is the first hurdle. My friend is getting better at recognizing when they come and speak to her; so they are losing their cover. She has been on lithium in the past also. jt From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] David Miller wrote: The concept that the Holy Spirit is working to convict believers of various sins, such as stealing, lust, covetousness, etc. is dangerous. Judy wrote: Why do you see this as dangerous David? Because people confuse the voice of the Spirit with their own inner convictions. Furthermore, they misinterpret the work of the Holy Spirit, and therefore ascribe works to him which are not his. This leads to error. Judy wrote: Being conformed to the image of Christ does not happen overnight. It is a process, just as salvation itself is a process of past, present, future. It depends which image of Christ you are talking about. Are you talking about him in his now glorified state? You bet that is a process. Are you talking about Christ as an infant lying in a manger? No, that is not a process. That is an event called being born again. Judy wrote: An object lesson is given us in scripture ... when after Israel celebrated the passover and God led them supernaturally to the promised land. They were instructed to go in and take the land which He would give to them little by little. He did not clear the land all at one time because they would not be strong enough to hold it. (Exodus 23:29,30) Good object lesson, but look at it closely. They were no longer slaves in Egypt at this point. Once they crossed that Red Sea and the waters killed the Egyptians that were pursuing them, they were saved. They had deliverance from bondage to Egypt, which represents our deliverance from the bondage of sin to this world system. What they lacked was possessing the promised land, the kingdom of God. This is where faith comes in, and this is where the process of growth is important. We are immediately delivered, but love still is perfected. I may not sin, but that does not mean that I cannot love better. Yesterday I may have helped someone who came looking to me for help, but today I might seek out those who need help. Yesterday, I might have
RE: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
So true. Im not inclined to put up with abuse for no reason. Id do it, however, if I thought the Lord wanted me to. Right now Im just vacillatingrun the other way or try to be a friend? Is there any point to befriend a demonic person who doesnt get it? izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 9:26 PM To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] So why do you put Christian in quotesis she or isnt she? I know I struggled for years with debilitating depression. The only therapy I ever had was through seeking after the Lord with all my heart, and eventually He healed and delivered me. It doesnt mean I cant get depressed today, but thats a whole different animal from the blackness that debilitates you with such overwhelming hopelessness that it takes concentrated effort just to take the next breath. I praise God for His mercy and faithfulness. I was a believer, but satan had his hands around my throat. The Lord is mightier, but I was set free overnight by any means. I guess I had to learn on my own when to recognize it as the enemy and rebuke him. I guess with the demonic thing I notice about the couple of women Ive known who were bipolar personalities is the anger thingyou know, always trying to be offended or to pick an argument. Thats what really makes me uncomfortable. I havent had time to think it through, but I can tell when I sense something demonic. And Im not sure how to react to it. izzy Please don't take the quotes to heart, I used them to emphasize the fact that she is a Christian, she prays for me all the time. I've been through depressive spells (though not as severe) myself and I understand the desperation. Praise God for his faithfulness in your life (and mine)Izzy. I hear what you're saying about the anger - sounds familiar and I know it is demonic. The sad thing is that ppl in this situationalienate what they need the most which is love and acceptance. jt From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] Really interesting analogies, Judy and David. I'll think about that a lot. By the way, the enemies in the land comment leads me to ask if anyone knows what is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled Bi-polar--up one day and low the next, and seem to me to always be looking for someone to be angry with. They are commonly treated with lithium. I've been around someone like that the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy I have a long time christian friend who has been diagnosed bi-polar also and I have seen her in good times and bad times and hospitalized twice for months at a time. My friend had 10yrs of freedom from meds until 1989 when hurricane Gloria hit the coast and everyone around her including her mother and daughter were freaking out over it. B would tell you that this is definitely demonic and in her case a stronghold of fear which has controlled her for most of her life. She hasunderstanding and has made some progress. This has to do with what I have been discussing with David. Some of these seeming comfort zones are not easy for ppl to part with and spirits such as self pity stroke the flesh and posture as friends so identifying them and seeing them as enemies is the first hurdle. My friend is getting better at recognizing when they come and speak to her; so they are losing their cover. She has been on lithium in the past also. jt From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] David Miller wrote: The concept that the Holy Spirit is working to convict believers of various sins, such as stealing, lust, covetousness, etc. is dangerous. Judy wrote: Why do you see this as dangerous David? Because people confuse the voice of the Spirit with their own inner convictions. Furthermore, they misinterpret the work of the Holy Spirit, and therefore ascribe works to him which are not his. This leads to error. Judy wrote: Being conformed to the image of Christ does not happen overnight. It is a process, just as salvation itself is a process of past, present, future. It depends which image of Christ you are talking about. Are you talking about him in his now glorified state? You bet that is a process. Are you talking about Christ as an infant lying in a manger? No, that is not a process. That is an event called being born again. Judy wrote: An object lesson is given us in scripture ... when after Israel celebrated the passover and God led them supernaturally to the promised land. They were instructed to go in and take the land which He would give to them little by little. He did not clear the land all at one time because they would not be strong enough to hold
Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Who is the source of M/I? THAT is how I am defining it. As the 'triple decker' guy once said: 'I've lived next door to both (Moral/Immoral) and, I'd prefer the Moral (for obvious reasons). However, is God's 'graced revelation' MORE needful for the Immoral?. You seem to give them more attention. Isn't it interesting that Jesus did the reverse? Maybe your emphasis is on the wrong syllAble or, at least lacking balance. From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: August 18, 2005 20:32 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Lance wrote: What do I mean? I've twice posted this: 'The moral and the immoral are equidistant from the kingdom'. This is also true of the Left and the Right (politically). Do you concur with both of the foregoing? My initial response is absolutely not, I do not concur with what you wrote. However, I say this with some reticence because it is possible that you define these terms moral and immoral differently from me. Do you think the Pharisees and the Sadducees were equidistant from the kingdom? I don't. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
