Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyonewouldwanttelnet-based tools
yars revenge was an atari 2600 app - i found my old system while cleaning out the garage and tossed everything away a couple of months ago... i'm a doom3 maestro myself, if it doesn't have a proton blaster i don't play it, lol -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Ed Clark Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 4:45 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyonewouldwanttelnet-based tools I don' know about Yar's Revenge, but there was a new version of Dig Dug released last year in the App store that sold a lot of copies. On Feb 20, 2012, at 9:12 PM, Allen E. Elwood wrote: > > I think the proof of the pudding is that you're not going to find ONE > vendor designing *and advertising* a 'new and improved' command line > editor, or using the words "and with our JAVA implementation you get > the NEW command line editor!" > > Like it or not the line editor is headed for the bit bucket along with > Yars Revenge and DigDug. > > As far as the value of this thread goes I'd like to offer the > following > advice: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MDQWuplMvA&context=C3b2876fADOEgsToPDs > kLsIuA > HwAcWrSLimnCZh9s1 > > "Press the Stop Button" > ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone wouldwanttelnet-based tools
I don' know about Yar's Revenge, but there was a new version of Dig Dug released last year in the App store that sold a lot of copies. On Feb 20, 2012, at 9:12 PM, Allen E. Elwood wrote: > > I think the proof of the pudding is that you're not going to find ONE vendor > designing *and advertising* a 'new and improved' command line editor, or > using the words "and with our JAVA implementation you get the NEW command > line editor!" > > Like it or not the line editor is headed for the bit bucket along with Yars > Revenge and DigDug. > > As far as the value of this thread goes I'd like to offer the following > advice: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MDQWuplMvA&context=C3b2876fADOEgsToPDskLsIuA > HwAcWrSLimnCZh9s1 > > "Press the Stop Button" > > -Original Message- > From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org > [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of LeRoy Dreyfuss > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 5:45 PM > To: U2 Users List > Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone > wouldwanttelnet-based tools > > Just to throw my hat in the ring, I agree that a GUI is more desirable in > this day and age. However, I've worked with Bro's mvToolbox for the last 6-7 > years and it's been a godsend, shaving days and weeks from my efforts. I > still keep a copy and recently reached out to Bro to bring it into my place > of work. > > It does have its learning curve, largely because it is so feature-rich. > Let's not forget the objective of the tookbox is simplifying MV development > cross-platform (Bro told me a few weeks ago he's working on a jbase port). > With its integration into so many telnet clients, mouse clicks and all, I > think it does a very good job meeting it's objective. > > Do I wish it supported a true GUI front end? Sure. Does it get the job done > without it? Sure does. > > My 30 cents. > > Regards, > > LeRoy > Sent from my iPhone 4 > > > > ___ > U2-Users mailing list > U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org > http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone wouldwanttelnet-based tools
As long as Rocket constantly refuses to include something better than the command line editor. You will always have people who do not shell out for anything else. I have no idea what yazoo at IBM/Rocket decided to junk JET when they had no suitable replacement. -Original Message- From: Allen E. Elwood To: 'U2 Users List' Sent: Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:19 pm Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone wouldwanttelnet-based tools I think the proof of the pudding is that you're not going to find ONE vendor designing *and advertising* a 'new and improved' command line editor, or using the words "and with our JAVA implementation you get the NEW command line editor!" Like it or not the line editor is headed for the bit bucket along with Yars Revenge and DigDug. As far as the value of this thread goes I'd like to offer the following advice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MDQWuplMvA&context=C3b2876fADOEgsToPDskLsIuA HwAcWrSLimnCZh9s1 "Press the Stop Button" -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of LeRoy Dreyfuss Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 5:45 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone wouldwanttelnet-based tools Just to throw my hat in the ring, I agree that a GUI is more desirable in this day and age. However, I've worked with Bro's mvToolbox for the last 6-7 years and it's been a godsend, shaving days and weeks from my efforts. I still keep a copy and recently reached out to Bro to bring it into my place of work. It does have its learning curve, largely because it is so feature-rich. Let's not forget the objective of the tookbox is simplifying MV development cross-platform (Bro told me a few weeks ago he's working on a jbase port). With its integration into so many telnet clients, mouse clicks and all, I think it does a very good job meeting it's objective. Do I wish it supported a true GUI front end? Sure. Does it get the job done without it? Sure does. My 30 cents. Regards, LeRoy Sent from my iPhone 4 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone wouldwanttelnet-based tools
I think the proof of the pudding is that you're not going to find ONE vendor designing *and advertising* a 'new and improved' command line editor, or using the words "and with our JAVA implementation you get the NEW command line editor!" Like it or not the line editor is headed for the bit bucket along with Yars Revenge and DigDug. As far as the value of this thread goes I'd like to offer the following advice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MDQWuplMvA&context=C3b2876fADOEgsToPDskLsIuA HwAcWrSLimnCZh9s1 "Press the Stop Button" -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of LeRoy Dreyfuss Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 5:45 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone wouldwanttelnet-based tools Just to throw my hat in the ring, I agree that a GUI is more desirable in this day and age. However, I've worked with Bro's mvToolbox for the last 6-7 years and it's been a godsend, shaving days and weeks from my efforts. I still keep a copy and recently reached out to Bro to bring it into my place of work. It does have its learning curve, largely because it is so feature-rich. Let's not forget the objective of the tookbox is simplifying MV development cross-platform (Bro told me a few weeks ago he's working on a jbase port). With its integration into so many telnet clients, mouse clicks and all, I think it does a very good job meeting it's objective. Do I wish it supported a true GUI front end? Sure. Does it get the job done without it? Sure does. My 30 cents. Regards, LeRoy Sent from my iPhone 4 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would wanttelnet-based tools
Just to throw my hat in the ring, I agree that a GUI is more desirable in this day and age. However, I've worked with Bro's mvToolbox for the last 6-7 years and it's been a godsend, shaving days and weeks from my efforts. I still keep a copy and recently reached out to Bro to bring it into my place of work. It does have its learning curve, largely because it is so feature-rich. Let's not forget the objective of the tookbox is simplifying MV development cross-platform (Bro told me a few weeks ago he's working on a jbase port). With its integration into so many telnet clients, mouse clicks and all, I think it does a very good job meeting it's objective. Do I wish it supported a true GUI front end? Sure. Does it get the job done without it? Sure does. My 30 cents. Regards, LeRoy Sent from my iPhone 4 On Feb 20, 2012, at 6:00 PM, "Tony Gravagno" <3xk547...@sneakemail.com> wrote: >> From: Wjhonson >> WED is not an inplace full screen editor. It's merely >> a hyped up Notepad. Not the same thing. You cannot >> use WED to say "Oh by the way, go grab the cross >> reference files and show me every OTHER program that >> also reads the customer file." You could however do >> that, with an inplace full screen editor > > Keeping this on-topic, that is one of the thousands of features > in mvToolbox. The above functionality is something all of us > wish we had when we're sitting in some editor X and we know the > pain we face to get the information we need to just write that > next line of code. My message here is that there is a solution > to those problems. > > We can debate the aesthetics of the character UI (CUI) vs GUI, > the relative productivity gains and losses, and the perceptions > people have when they see one or the other. But when it comes > down to it, we just need to get a job of coding business apps > done. I would rather have the tools to do what I need, and > debate the UI later, than to not have the functionality and > therefore nothing to debate. > (Doug, please don't jump in here, we've seen your ad in every > other posting, this is NOT about YOUR software. Have a little > respect.) > > For anyone who does take a look, learning mvToolbox can be a > painful process. I constantly struggle to decide whether I > should take the time to do something myself (like look for file > usage) or whether I should learn how mvToolbox does it. I face > the same problem with all developer tools. But the reward of > learning it once is that development is then streamlined from > that point forward. Bro Cope (author) has opened the software > for free (limited time?) usage to get the software in the hands > of people in order to drum up some demand for improvements. In > the spirit of collaboration for "free" but not "open source" > software, I've offered to help with documentation, UI, website, > etc, in an attempt to help minimize some of that pain. (So far > I've just written some docs, nothing else yet. I'll try to help > with the website too. Eugene Perry has been working with Bro for > years, as his own time permits, in the same spirit of making a > contribution for a common cause.) The product is evolving. It > might evolve to add a GUI (thus giving people both options), > eliminating the need for us to discuss the CUI vs GUI arguments, > and allowing us to focus on functionality. > > I encourage people to give it a shot, and focus on functionality, > with the understanding that the UI _may_ evolve and that the > overall product experience _will_ evolve as more people use it. > > T > > ___ > U2-Users mailing list > U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org > http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would wanttelnet-based tools
> From: Wjhonson > WED is not an inplace full screen editor. It's merely > a hyped up Notepad. Not the same thing. You cannot > use WED to say "Oh by the way, go grab the cross > reference files and show me every OTHER program that > also reads the customer file." You could however do > that, with an inplace full screen editor Keeping this on-topic, that is one of the thousands of features in mvToolbox. The above functionality is something all of us wish we had when we're sitting in some editor X and we know the pain we face to get the information we need to just write that next line of code. My message here is that there is a solution to those problems. We can debate the aesthetics of the character UI (CUI) vs GUI, the relative productivity gains and losses, and the perceptions people have when they see one or the other. But when it comes down to it, we just need to get a job of coding business apps done. I would rather have the tools to do what I need, and debate the UI later, than to not have the functionality and therefore nothing to debate. (Doug, please don't jump in here, we've seen your ad in every other posting, this is NOT about YOUR software. Have a little respect.) For anyone who does take a look, learning mvToolbox can be a painful process. I constantly struggle to decide whether I should take the time to do something myself (like look for file usage) or whether I should learn how mvToolbox does it. I face the same problem with all developer tools. But the reward of learning it once is that development is then streamlined from that point forward. Bro Cope (author) has opened the software for free (limited time?) usage to get the software in the hands of people in order to drum up some demand for improvements. In the spirit of collaboration for "free" but not "open source" software, I've offered to help with documentation, UI, website, etc, in an attempt to help minimize some of that pain. (So far I've just written some docs, nothing else yet. I'll try to help with the website too. Eugene Perry has been working with Bro for years, as his own time permits, in the same spirit of making a contribution for a common cause.) The product is evolving. It might evolve to add a GUI (thus giving people both options), eliminating the need for us to discuss the CUI vs GUI arguments, and allowing us to focus on functionality. I encourage people to give it a shot, and focus on functionality, with the understanding that the UI _may_ evolve and that the overall product experience _will_ evolve as more people use it. T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
Only know do I understand. Thanks George -Original Message- From: Wjhonson Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 1:47 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools WED is not an inplace full screen editor. It's merely a hyped up Notepad. Not the same thing. You cannot use WED to say "Oh by the way, go grab the cross reference files and show me every OTHER program that also reads the customer file." You could however do that, with an inplace full screen editor -Original Message- From: George R Smith To: u2-users Sent: Mon, Feb 20, 2012 11:43 am Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Share ? Accuterm Wed would be alternative. Good price great service. George -Original Message- From: Wjhonson Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 1:15 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Share ? -Original Message- From: Les Hewkin To: 'U2 Users List' Sent: Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:04 am Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Long live telnetwe use a full screen editor for Universe, written in house of course, being used by about 80 developers as I type. Les Sherlock Hewkin Senior Project Manager Finance Systems, I.T. Department T 01604 592289, M 07917 856195 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: 20 February 2012 13:41 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools --- On Sat, 18/2/12, Symeon Breen wrote: I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet (or ssh) and that they are using some form of GUI editor. With respect, I disagree. I work alongside dozens of UniVerse developers and I am in a very small minority who use a GUI based editor. The vast majority use our own custom editor, which runs on a ubiquitous 'green-screen' terminal emulator. Even those like myself who favour editing in a GUI still do all other tasks through command line. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the addressee only. If you have received this message in error, you must not copy, distribute or disclose the contents; please notify the sender immediately and delete the message. This message is attributed to the sender and may not necessarily reflect the view of Travis Perkins plc or its subsidiaries (Travis Perkins). Agreements binding Travis Perkins may not be concluded by means of e-mail communication. E-mail transmissions are not secure and Travis Perkins accepts no responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. Whilst steps have been taken to ensure that this message is virus free, Travis Perkins accepts no liability for infection and recommends that you scan this e-mail and any attachments. Part of Travis Perkins plc. Registered Office: Lodge Way House, Lodge Way, Harlestone Road, Northampton, NN5 7UG. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
WED is not an inplace full screen editor. It's merely a hyped up Notepad. Not the same thing. You cannot use WED to say "Oh by the way, go grab the cross reference files and show me every OTHER program that also reads the customer file." You could however do that, with an inplace full screen editor -Original Message- From: George R Smith To: u2-users Sent: Mon, Feb 20, 2012 11:43 am Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools >Share ? Accuterm Wed would be alternative. Good price great service. George -Original Message- From: Wjhonson Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 1:15 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Share ? -Original Message- From: Les Hewkin To: 'U2 Users List' Sent: Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:04 am Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Long live telnetwe use a full screen editor for Universe, written in house of course, being used by about 80 developers as I type. Les Sherlock Hewkin Senior Project Manager Finance Systems, I.T. Department T 01604 592289, M 07917 856195 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: 20 February 2012 13:41 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools --- On Sat, 18/2/12, Symeon Breen wrote: > I seriously believe most MV people > are not programming in ED on telnet (or > ssh) and that they are using some form of GUI editor. With respect, I disagree. I work alongside dozens of UniVerse developers and I am in a very small minority who use a GUI based editor. The vast majority use our own custom editor, which runs on a ubiquitous 'green-screen' terminal emulator. Even those like myself who favour editing in a GUI still do all other tasks through command line. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the addressee only. If you have received this message in error, you must not copy, distribute or disclose the contents; please notify the sender immediately and delete the message. This message is attributed to the sender and may not necessarily reflect the view of Travis Perkins plc or its subsidiaries (Travis Perkins). Agreements binding Travis Perkins may not be concluded by means of e-mail communication. E-mail transmissions are not secure and Travis Perkins accepts no responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. Whilst steps have been taken to ensure that this message is virus free, Travis Perkins accepts no liability for infection and recommends that you scan this e-mail and any attachments. Part of Travis Perkins plc. Registered Office: Lodge Way House, Lodge Way, Harlestone Road, Northampton, NN5 7UG. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
Share ? Accuterm Wed would be alternative. Good price great service. George -Original Message- From: Wjhonson Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 1:15 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Share ? -Original Message- From: Les Hewkin To: 'U2 Users List' Sent: Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:04 am Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Long live telnetwe use a full screen editor for Universe, written in house of course, being used by about 80 developers as I type. Les Sherlock Hewkin Senior Project Manager Finance Systems, I.T. Department T 01604 592289, M 07917 856195 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: 20 February 2012 13:41 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools --- On Sat, 18/2/12, Symeon Breen wrote: I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet (or ssh) and that they are using some form of GUI editor. With respect, I disagree. I work alongside dozens of UniVerse developers and I am in a very small minority who use a GUI based editor. The vast majority use our own custom editor, which runs on a ubiquitous 'green-screen' terminal emulator. Even those like myself who favour editing in a GUI still do all other tasks through command line. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the addressee only. If you have received this message in error, you must not copy, distribute or disclose the contents; please notify the sender immediately and delete the message. This message is attributed to the sender and may not necessarily reflect the view of Travis Perkins plc or its subsidiaries (Travis Perkins). Agreements binding Travis Perkins may not be concluded by means of e-mail communication. style="FONT-SIZE: 8.2pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Sans Serif'">E-mail transmissions are not secure and Travis Perkins accepts no responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. Whilst steps have been taken to ensure that this message is virus free, Travis Perkins accepts no liability for infection and recommends that you scan this e-mail and any attachments. style="FONT-SIZE: 8.2pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Sans Serif'">Part of Travis Perkins plc. Registered Office: Lodge Way House, Lodge Way, Harlestone Road, Northampton, NN5 7UG. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
Share ? -Original Message- From: Les Hewkin To: 'U2 Users List' Sent: Mon, Feb 20, 2012 6:04 am Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Long live telnetwe use a full screen editor for Universe, written in house of course, being used by about 80 developers as I type. Les Sherlock Hewkin Senior Project Manager Finance Systems, I.T. Department T 01604 592289, M 07917 856195 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: 20 February 2012 13:41 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools --- On Sat, 18/2/12, Symeon Breen wrote: > I seriously believe most MV people > are not programming in ED on telnet (or > ssh) and that they are using some form of GUI editor. With respect, I disagree. I work alongside dozens of UniVerse developers and I am in a very small minority who use a GUI based editor. The vast majority use our own custom editor, which runs on a ubiquitous 'green-screen' terminal emulator. Even those like myself who favour editing in a GUI still do all other tasks through command line. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the addressee only. If you have received this message in error, you must not copy, distribute or disclose the contents; please notify the sender immediately and delete the message. This message is attributed to the sender and may not necessarily reflect the view of Travis Perkins plc or its subsidiaries (Travis Perkins). Agreements binding Travis Perkins may not be concluded by means of e-mail communication. E-mail transmissions are not secure and Travis Perkins accepts no responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. Whilst steps have been taken to ensure that this message is virus free, Travis Perkins accepts no liability for infection and recommends that you scan this e-mail and any attachments. Part of Travis Perkins plc. Registered Office: Lodge Way House, Lodge Way, Harlestone Road, Northampton, NN5 7UG. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
Long live telnetwe use a full screen editor for Universe, written in house of course, being used by about 80 developers as I type. Les Sherlock Hewkin Senior Project Manager Finance Systems, I.T. Department T 01604 592289, M 07917 856195 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: 20 February 2012 13:41 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools --- On Sat, 18/2/12, Symeon Breen wrote: > I seriously believe most MV people > are not programming in ED on telnet (or > ssh) and that they are using some form of GUI editor. With respect, I disagree. I work alongside dozens of UniVerse developers and I am in a very small minority who use a GUI based editor. The vast majority use our own custom editor, which runs on a ubiquitous 'green-screen' terminal emulator. Even those like myself who favour editing in a GUI still do all other tasks through command line. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the addressee only. If you have received this message in error, you must not copy, distribute or disclose the contents; please notify the sender immediately and delete the message. This message is attributed to the sender and may not necessarily reflect the view of Travis Perkins plc or its subsidiaries (Travis Perkins). Agreements binding Travis Perkins may not be concluded by means of e-mail communication. E-mail transmissions are not secure and Travis Perkins accepts no responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. Whilst steps have been taken to ensure that this message is virus free, Travis Perkins accepts no liability for infection and recommends that you scan this e-mail and any attachments. Part of Travis Perkins plc. Registered Office: Lodge Way House, Lodge Way, Harlestone Road, Northampton, NN5 7UG. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
--- On Sat, 18/2/12, Symeon Breen wrote: > I seriously believe most MV people > are not programming in ED on telnet (or > ssh) and that they are using some form of > GUI editor. With respect, I disagree. I work alongside dozens of UniVerse developers and I am in a very small minority who use a GUI based editor. The vast majority use our own custom editor, which runs on a ubiquitous 'green-screen' terminal emulator. Even those like myself who favour editing in a GUI still do all other tasks through command line. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools - dictionaries
[ad] Our product XLr8Editor supports version control for dictionaries as well as programs, procs, VOC items, etc. We have been doing this for some time now. I would be happy to give a webinar this week on it if there is some interest on version control. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com "XLr8Editor still $49.00 with updates every 3 to 4 weeks" [/ad] On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 7:36 AM, Brian Leach wrote: > I have a simple program that builds them from a script. THat way the > scripts form part of the system definition and get version managed like the > rest .. As far as I'm concerned dictionaries should be treated like source > code. > > Brian > > Sent from my iPad > > On 18 Feb 2012, at 21:53, "Boydell, Stuart" < > stuart.boyd...@spotless.com.au> wrote: > > > Quick pop quiz. How do people build and maintain dictionaries? > > > > I have used Doug's XLr8 tool, SB+ and ED. > > I haven't found one that allows the use of standard revision control > systems (meaning anything appearing in Wikipedia's list of revision control > systems) out of the box, though Doug's may get there. (interested too, who > does use SCM (including SJ+) for their dicts and file creation scripts and > other "admin" artifacts? > > > > Of the three I like using the Xlr8/Eclipse GUI and grid makes for (IMHO) > clean, consistent dicts and very easy to look at as opposed to LIST.DICT > which in it's original form has to be one of THE most archaic features of > the environment. Especially in a 25 x 80 green screen. > > > > Stuart. > > > > From: Symeon Breen > > Sent: 18-Feb-12 21:15 > > To: 'U2 Users List' > > Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want > telnet-based tools > > > > I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet > (or > > ssh) and that they are using some form of GUI editor. > > > > Personally I know a lot of programmers in multiple disciplines - nearly > all > > of them have eclipse installed, not one of them uses it as an ide. There > are > > so many much much better environments for java or .net, or php etc. The > BDT > > is eclipse based and that is a throwback to the IBM days. Please people > look > > beyond eclipse there is a much bigger wider (and easier) world out there. > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org > > [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch > > Sent: 18 February 2012 02:48 > > To: U2 Users List > > Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want > > telnet-based tools > > > > Whether we are talking about Telnet that uses port 23 or UniObjects that > > uses or 31438 or HTTP that uses 80, it not the port that is the problem. > > It is not the way packets are transported or what overhead each different > > protocol has. The fact remains for me it is the presentation. > > > > Why do you think the new Metro interface from Microsoft is used "...in > order > > to create a unified and distinctive look across it consumer product and > > services." It is the presentation that catches our eye. > > > > When you are programming with the Telnet interface screen running behind > > whatever you are using for an editor, then you will catch someone's eye > but > > not in good way. You can couch it with this runs faster, or you are more > > productive, or it's simple to use: it does not really matter. They have > seen > > that editor does not that elegance. > > > > When I fire up Eclipse they notice I have a real workbench with menu > bars, > > tool bars, different perspectives, views, and status bars. My screen > looks > > like a real editor because it is a real editor that Java developers, PHP > > developer, C developers, C++ developers, and now U2 programmers use. I > have > > built in Search. I have built in Version control. I have built in the > > ability to have two different accounts open. I have the ability see my > > variables and internal subroutines. I can close those subroutines by > click > > on the minus and opening up with a plus. I can double click on a > variable > > and see on the ruler bar where it is used throughout the program. > > > > The least understood feature I cannot live without anymore is continuous > > compile. I no longer wait to compile my program to see what typos I > make, > > Universe and Unidata compiler are telling me while I type. > >
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools - dictionaries
I have a simple program that builds them from a script. THat way the scripts form part of the system definition and get version managed like the rest .. As far as I'm concerned dictionaries should be treated like source code. Brian Sent from my iPad On 18 Feb 2012, at 21:53, "Boydell, Stuart" wrote: > Quick pop quiz. How do people build and maintain dictionaries? > > I have used Doug's XLr8 tool, SB+ and ED. > I haven't found one that allows the use of standard revision control systems > (meaning anything appearing in Wikipedia's list of revision control systems) > out of the box, though Doug's may get there. (interested too, who does use > SCM (including SJ+) for their dicts and file creation scripts and other > "admin" artifacts? > > Of the three I like using the Xlr8/Eclipse GUI and grid makes for (IMHO) > clean, consistent dicts and very easy to look at as opposed to LIST.DICT > which in it's original form has to be one of THE most archaic features of the > environment. Especially in a 25 x 80 green screen. > > Stuart. > ________ > From: Symeon Breen > Sent: 18-Feb-12 21:15 > To: 'U2 Users List' > Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want > telnet-based tools > > I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet (or > ssh) and that they are using some form of GUI editor. > > Personally I know a lot of programmers in multiple disciplines - nearly all > of them have eclipse installed, not one of them uses it as an ide. There are > so many much much better environments for java or .net, or php etc. The BDT > is eclipse based and that is a throwback to the IBM days. Please people look > beyond eclipse there is a much bigger wider (and easier) world out there. > > > > -Original Message- > From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org > [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch > Sent: 18 February 2012 02:48 > To: U2 Users List > Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want > telnet-based tools > > Whether we are talking about Telnet that uses port 23 or UniObjects that > uses or 31438 or HTTP that uses 80, it not the port that is the problem. > It is not the way packets are transported or what overhead each different > protocol has. The fact remains for me it is the presentation. > > Why do you think the new Metro interface from Microsoft is used "...in order > to create a unified and distinctive look across it consumer product and > services." It is the presentation that catches our eye. > > When you are programming with the Telnet interface screen running behind > whatever you are using for an editor, then you will catch someone's eye but > not in good way. You can couch it with this runs faster, or you are more > productive, or it's simple to use: it does not really matter. They have seen > that editor does not that elegance. > > When I fire up Eclipse they notice I have a real workbench with menu bars, > tool bars, different perspectives, views, and status bars. My screen looks > like a real editor because it is a real editor that Java developers, PHP > developer, C developers, C++ developers, and now U2 programmers use. I have > built in Search. I have built in Version control. I have built in the > ability to have two different accounts open. I have the ability see my > variables and internal subroutines. I can close those subroutines by click > on the minus and opening up with a plus. I can double click on a variable > and see on the ruler bar where it is used throughout the program. > > The least understood feature I cannot live without anymore is continuous > compile. I no longer wait to compile my program to see what typos I make, > Universe and Unidata compiler are telling me while I type. > If fail to assign a value to a variable, I know as I'm typing. This alone > is worth the price of admission. > > That perception is what I've been preaching about for years. It can impact > you as the developer or it can impact the entire organization. > > Regards, > Doug > www.u2logic.com/tools.html<http://www.u2logic.com/tools.html> > "XLr8Editor for Universe and Unidata" > ___ > U2-Users mailing list > U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org > http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users > - > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com> > Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4815 - Release Date: 02/17/12 > > ___ >
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools - dictionaries
Same here -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Ed Clark Sent: 19 February 2012 00:43 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools - dictionaries honestly I don't do a lot of dictionary maintenance. I have each attribute defined, and translates to define inter-file associations, but If I need a different width/format/heading or unique expression for a query I use the FMT/CONV/EVAL keywords and create them on the fly. On Feb 18, 2012, at 4:53 PM, Boydell, Stuart wrote: > Quick pop quiz. How do people build and maintain dictionaries? > > I have used Doug's XLr8 tool, SB+ and ED. > I haven't found one that allows the use of standard revision control systems (meaning anything appearing in Wikipedia's list of revision control systems) out of the box, though Doug's may get there. (interested too, who does use SCM (including SJ+) for their dicts and file creation scripts and other "admin" artifacts? > > Of the three I like using the Xlr8/Eclipse GUI and grid makes for (IMHO) clean, consistent dicts and very easy to look at as opposed to LIST.DICT which in it's original form has to be one of THE most archaic features of the environment. Especially in a 25 x 80 green screen. > > Stuart. > > From: Symeon Breen > Sent: 18-Feb-12 21:15 > To: 'U2 Users List' > Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want > telnet-based tools > > I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet (or > ssh) and that they are using some form of GUI editor. > > Personally I know a lot of programmers in multiple disciplines - > nearly all of them have eclipse installed, not one of them uses it as > an ide. There are so many much much better environments for java or > .net, or php etc. The BDT is eclipse based and that is a throwback to > the IBM days. Please people look beyond eclipse there is a much bigger wider (and easier) world out there. > > > > -Original Message- > From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org > [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch > Sent: 18 February 2012 02:48 > To: U2 Users List > Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want > telnet-based tools > > Whether we are talking about Telnet that uses port 23 or UniObjects > that uses or 31438 or HTTP that uses 80, it not the port that is the problem. > It is not the way packets are transported or what overhead each > different protocol has. The fact remains for me it is the presentation. > > Why do you think the new Metro interface from Microsoft is used "...in > order to create a unified and distinctive look across it consumer > product and services." It is the presentation that catches our eye. > > When you are programming with the Telnet interface screen running > behind whatever you are using for an editor, then you will catch > someone's eye but not in good way. You can couch it with this runs > faster, or you are more productive, or it's simple to use: it does not > really matter. They have seen that editor does not that elegance. > > When I fire up Eclipse they notice I have a real workbench with menu > bars, tool bars, different perspectives, views, and status bars. My > screen looks like a real editor because it is a real editor that Java > developers, PHP developer, C developers, C++ developers, and now U2 > programmers use. I have built in Search. I have built in Version > control. I have built in the ability to have two different accounts > open. I have the ability see my variables and internal subroutines. > I can close those subroutines by click on the minus and opening up > with a plus. I can double click on a variable and see on the ruler bar where it is used throughout the program. > > The least understood feature I cannot live without anymore is > continuous compile. I no longer wait to compile my program to see > what typos I make, Universe and Unidata compiler are telling me while I type. > If fail to assign a value to a variable, I know as I'm typing. This > alone is worth the price of admission. > > That perception is what I've been preaching about for years. It can > impact you as the developer or it can impact the entire organization. > > Regards, > Doug > www.u2logic.com/tools.html<http://www.u2logic.com/tools.html> > "XLr8Editor for Universe and Unidata" > ___ > U2-Users mailing list > U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org > http://listse
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would wanttelnet-based tools - dictionaries
Can we have a fresh thread for that? > Quick pop quiz. How do people build and maintain dictionaries? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools - dictionaries
honestly I don't do a lot of dictionary maintenance. I have each attribute defined, and translates to define inter-file associations, but If I need a different width/format/heading or unique expression for a query I use the FMT/CONV/EVAL keywords and create them on the fly. On Feb 18, 2012, at 4:53 PM, Boydell, Stuart wrote: > Quick pop quiz. How do people build and maintain dictionaries? > > I have used Doug's XLr8 tool, SB+ and ED. > I haven't found one that allows the use of standard revision control systems > (meaning anything appearing in Wikipedia's list of revision control systems) > out of the box, though Doug's may get there. (interested too, who does use > SCM (including SJ+) for their dicts and file creation scripts and other > "admin" artifacts? > > Of the three I like using the Xlr8/Eclipse GUI and grid makes for (IMHO) > clean, consistent dicts and very easy to look at as opposed to LIST.DICT > which in it's original form has to be one of THE most archaic features of the > environment. Especially in a 25 x 80 green screen. > > Stuart. > ____ > From: Symeon Breen > Sent: 18-Feb-12 21:15 > To: 'U2 Users List' > Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want > telnet-based tools > > I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet (or > ssh) and that they are using some form of GUI editor. > > Personally I know a lot of programmers in multiple disciplines - nearly all > of them have eclipse installed, not one of them uses it as an ide. There are > so many much much better environments for java or .net, or php etc. The BDT > is eclipse based and that is a throwback to the IBM days. Please people look > beyond eclipse there is a much bigger wider (and easier) world out there. > > > > -Original Message- > From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org > [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch > Sent: 18 February 2012 02:48 > To: U2 Users List > Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want > telnet-based tools > > Whether we are talking about Telnet that uses port 23 or UniObjects that > uses or 31438 or HTTP that uses 80, it not the port that is the problem. > It is not the way packets are transported or what overhead each different > protocol has. The fact remains for me it is the presentation. > > Why do you think the new Metro interface from Microsoft is used "...in order > to create a unified and distinctive look across it consumer product and > services." It is the presentation that catches our eye. > > When you are programming with the Telnet interface screen running behind > whatever you are using for an editor, then you will catch someone's eye but > not in good way. You can couch it with this runs faster, or you are more > productive, or it's simple to use: it does not really matter. They have seen > that editor does not that elegance. > > When I fire up Eclipse they notice I have a real workbench with menu bars, > tool bars, different perspectives, views, and status bars. My screen looks > like a real editor because it is a real editor that Java developers, PHP > developer, C developers, C++ developers, and now U2 programmers use. I have > built in Search. I have built in Version control. I have built in the > ability to have two different accounts open. I have the ability see my > variables and internal subroutines. I can close those subroutines by click > on the minus and opening up with a plus. I can double click on a variable > and see on the ruler bar where it is used throughout the program. > > The least understood feature I cannot live without anymore is continuous > compile. I no longer wait to compile my program to see what typos I make, > Universe and Unidata compiler are telling me while I type. > If fail to assign a value to a variable, I know as I'm typing. This alone > is worth the price of admission. > > That perception is what I've been preaching about for years. It can impact > you as the developer or it can impact the entire organization. > > Regards, > Doug > www.u2logic.com/tools.html<http://www.u2logic.com/tools.html> > "XLr8Editor for Universe and Unidata" > ___ > U2-Users mailing list > U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org > http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users > - > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com> > Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4815 - Release Date: 02/17/12 > > _
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools - dictionaries
Quick pop quiz. How do people build and maintain dictionaries? I have used Doug's XLr8 tool, SB+ and ED. I haven't found one that allows the use of standard revision control systems (meaning anything appearing in Wikipedia's list of revision control systems) out of the box, though Doug's may get there. (interested too, who does use SCM (including SJ+) for their dicts and file creation scripts and other "admin" artifacts? Of the three I like using the Xlr8/Eclipse GUI and grid makes for (IMHO) clean, consistent dicts and very easy to look at as opposed to LIST.DICT which in it's original form has to be one of THE most archaic features of the environment. Especially in a 25 x 80 green screen. Stuart. From: Symeon Breen Sent: 18-Feb-12 21:15 To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet (or ssh) and that they are using some form of GUI editor. Personally I know a lot of programmers in multiple disciplines - nearly all of them have eclipse installed, not one of them uses it as an ide. There are so many much much better environments for java or .net, or php etc. The BDT is eclipse based and that is a throwback to the IBM days. Please people look beyond eclipse there is a much bigger wider (and easier) world out there. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch Sent: 18 February 2012 02:48 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Whether we are talking about Telnet that uses port 23 or UniObjects that uses or 31438 or HTTP that uses 80, it not the port that is the problem. It is not the way packets are transported or what overhead each different protocol has. The fact remains for me it is the presentation. Why do you think the new Metro interface from Microsoft is used "...in order to create a unified and distinctive look across it consumer product and services." It is the presentation that catches our eye. When you are programming with the Telnet interface screen running behind whatever you are using for an editor, then you will catch someone's eye but not in good way. You can couch it with this runs faster, or you are more productive, or it's simple to use: it does not really matter. They have seen that editor does not that elegance. When I fire up Eclipse they notice I have a real workbench with menu bars, tool bars, different perspectives, views, and status bars. My screen looks like a real editor because it is a real editor that Java developers, PHP developer, C developers, C++ developers, and now U2 programmers use. I have built in Search. I have built in Version control. I have built in the ability to have two different accounts open. I have the ability see my variables and internal subroutines. I can close those subroutines by click on the minus and opening up with a plus. I can double click on a variable and see on the ruler bar where it is used throughout the program. The least understood feature I cannot live without anymore is continuous compile. I no longer wait to compile my program to see what typos I make, Universe and Unidata compiler are telling me while I type. If fail to assign a value to a variable, I know as I'm typing. This alone is worth the price of admission. That perception is what I've been preaching about for years. It can impact you as the developer or it can impact the entire organization. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.html<http://www.u2logic.com/tools.html> "XLr8Editor for Universe and Unidata" ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com> Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4815 - Release Date: 02/17/12 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
Symeon: "/Please people look beyond eclipse there is a much bigger wider (and easier) world out there./" Since you ask so nicely, I'll have to take a look! :-) Bill P.S. I don't much like Eclipse either; not too impressed with BDT and could never get Dougs tool to install properly. - Original Message - *From:* syme...@gmail.com *To:* 'U2 Users List' *Date:* 2/18/2012 2:14 AM *Subject:* Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet (or ssh) and that they are using some form of GUI editor. Personally I know a lot of programmers in multiple disciplines - nearly all of them have eclipse installed, not one of them uses it as an ide. There are so many much much better environments for java or .net, or php etc. The BDT is eclipse based and that is a throwback to the IBM days. Please people look beyond eclipse there is a much bigger wider (and easier) world out there. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch Sent: 18 February 2012 02:48 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Whether we are talking about Telnet that uses port 23 or UniObjects that uses or 31438 or HTTP that uses 80, it not the port that is the problem. It is not the way packets are transported or what overhead each different protocol has. The fact remains for me it is the presentation. Why do you think the new Metro interface from Microsoft is used "...in order to create a unified and distinctive look across it consumer product and services." It is the presentation that catches our eye. When you are programming with the Telnet interface screen running behind whatever you are using for an editor, then you will catch someone's eye but not in good way. You can couch it with this runs faster, or you are more productive, or it's simple to use: it does not really matter. They have seen that editor does not that elegance. When I fire up Eclipse they notice I have a real workbench with menu bars, tool bars, different perspectives, views, and status bars. My screen looks like a real editor because it is a real editor that Java developers, PHP developer, C developers, C++ developers, and now U2 programmers use. I have built in Search. I have built in Version control. I have built in the ability to have two different accounts open. I have the ability see my variables and internal subroutines. I can close those subroutines by click on the minus and opening up with a plus. I can double click on a variable and see on the ruler bar where it is used throughout the program. The least understood feature I cannot live without anymore is continuous compile. I no longer wait to compile my program to see what typos I make, Universe and Unidata compiler are telling me while I type. If fail to assign a value to a variable, I know as I'm typing. This alone is worth the price of admission. That perception is what I've been preaching about for years. It can impact you as the developer or it can impact the entire organization. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.html "XLr8Editor for Universe and Unidata" ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4815 - Release Date: 02/17/12 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox
I agree completely with this. Except the aversion to anything PICK. From what I've noticed there is still an aversion because it is a mystery to them. Most of the newbies to business have been brought up on MS and anything else to them is old school. What used to be "You can't go wrong when buying IBM" has changed to "You can go wrong when buying Microsoft". Our vars have discovered a big business converting U2 to SQL Server and are taking advantage of it. It would help if Rocket, and the other flavors, had a policy in place that would state that they would loose their var status if they didn't also sell a product that ran on the database. It would force them to want to sell more copies if they needed it to stay in business. Jerry On 2/17/2012 1:24 AM, David Jordan wrote: Whilst I understand where you are coming from Doug. I think we get too caught up that telnet is negative. Microsoft had to bend to demand for a command line system for Windows because the tech guys said it was too slow to do things in Windows forms. When I talk to Oracle databases, SQL Server database, I am still working with command prompt windows with some flash around them. Remember that easily 40% of code is still written in Cobol. There are mainframes in multinationals across the world still using green screen systems and paying a lot of money for them. Systems administrators across the world are driving unix, linux and windows systems through command prompt windows. The concern about telnet is more in the heads of U2 developers than in the customer base. It is like the aversion to the word PICK, people are nervous about a negative reaction from mainstream IT. But we have a new generation of IT people who have never heard of PICK, never mind having a closed mind to it. Rather than getting caught up debating whether people are against telnet, we should promote its positives. I have seen a company just buy a brand new cobol GL system. If they would buy a Cobol system, why wouldn't they buy a PICK GL. We are our own worst critics. If anyone has worked in a mainframe site and saw some of the systems they are working with, they would be shocked. I think we have an incredible opportunity to grow U2 business in the current economic environment, if it was not for us tripping ourselves up by underselling U2 technology. My 2c David Jordan ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
I seriously believe most MV people are not programming in ED on telnet (or ssh) and that they are using some form of GUI editor. Personally I know a lot of programmers in multiple disciplines - nearly all of them have eclipse installed, not one of them uses it as an ide. There are so many much much better environments for java or .net, or php etc. The BDT is eclipse based and that is a throwback to the IBM days. Please people look beyond eclipse there is a much bigger wider (and easier) world out there. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch Sent: 18 February 2012 02:48 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Whether we are talking about Telnet that uses port 23 or UniObjects that uses or 31438 or HTTP that uses 80, it not the port that is the problem. It is not the way packets are transported or what overhead each different protocol has. The fact remains for me it is the presentation. Why do you think the new Metro interface from Microsoft is used "...in order to create a unified and distinctive look across it consumer product and services." It is the presentation that catches our eye. When you are programming with the Telnet interface screen running behind whatever you are using for an editor, then you will catch someone's eye but not in good way. You can couch it with this runs faster, or you are more productive, or it's simple to use: it does not really matter. They have seen that editor does not that elegance. When I fire up Eclipse they notice I have a real workbench with menu bars, tool bars, different perspectives, views, and status bars. My screen looks like a real editor because it is a real editor that Java developers, PHP developer, C developers, C++ developers, and now U2 programmers use. I have built in Search. I have built in Version control. I have built in the ability to have two different accounts open. I have the ability see my variables and internal subroutines. I can close those subroutines by click on the minus and opening up with a plus. I can double click on a variable and see on the ruler bar where it is used throughout the program. The least understood feature I cannot live without anymore is continuous compile. I no longer wait to compile my program to see what typos I make, Universe and Unidata compiler are telling me while I type. If fail to assign a value to a variable, I know as I'm typing. This alone is worth the price of admission. That perception is what I've been preaching about for years. It can impact you as the developer or it can impact the entire organization. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.html "XLr8Editor for Universe and Unidata" ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4815 - Release Date: 02/17/12 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox
Having worked in java shop for 10 years most of the runtime of their java code on linux was run and administered from the shell. The shell of course was accessible via telnet/ssh. Any server technology as opposed to client will probably need this as it is all about automation, and shell access. Much of what happens in the u2 world is server technology - you have a database and application to which multiple clients connect. So to look over someones shoulder and see a terminal window with lots of fancy commands, is not a look of old fashioned out of date systems, but the look of most server systems today. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Wjhonson Sent: 17 February 2012 17:09 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox "Why is DOS still on Windows? Because there are some things you just can't do easily with windows," Just the other day I did a del *.txt pretty trivial to do at the DOS prompt. Rather more cumbersome to do in a Window click click click point, select click click select point click. -Original Message- From: George Gallen To: U2 Users List Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 6:20 am Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox Why? Because it has almost no overhead, and has the most flexibility. Can the 3 year old (assuming they understood the process) select items from one ile based on selection Then pull items from another file using a related ID and save that list. Perform that again on two other files and save that list. Merge those two, and then push that list into an application that emails a file The above would take 2-3 min to do with telnet. IT would take significantly longer to do with a GUI front end. telnet is excellent for administration and development. Once you know what you ant, then you an use the GUI to setup a nice interface for those that want to point and lick. Why is DOS still on Windows? Because there are some things you just can't do asily with windows, r without writing/buying an application. George -Original Message- rom: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] n Behalf Of Doug Averch ent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:17 PM o: U2 Users List ubject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox hy are we using telnet in 2 as our main form of communication? In today's world a 3 year old can use an iPad to access a Universe or nidata database application. We sell an Alpaca herd management that runs n the iPad and our granddaughter used the application "Who's your daddy?" o find out who the alpaca's daddy is. Sorry, another digression. Regards, oug __ 2-Users mailing list 2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org ttp://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4814 - Release Date: 02/16/12 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
500 Megabytes and counting, so I can see where a variable is used That's a non-starter for me. -Original Message- From: Doug Averch To: U2 Users List Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 6:48 pm Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Whether we are talking about Telnet that uses port 23 or UniObjects that uses or 31438 or HTTP that uses 80, it not the port that is the problem. It is not the way packets are transported or what overhead each different protocol has. The fact remains for me it is the presentation. Why do you think the new Metro interface from Microsoft is used "...in order to create a unified and distinctive look across it consumer product and services." It is the presentation that catches our eye. When you are programming with the Telnet interface screen running behind whatever you are using for an editor, then you will catch someone's eye but not in good way. You can couch it with this runs faster, or you are more productive, or it's simple to use: it does not really matter. They have seen that editor does not that elegance. When I fire up Eclipse they notice I have a real workbench with menu bars, tool bars, different perspectives, views, and status bars. My screen looks like a real editor because it is a real editor that Java developers, PHP developer, C developers, C++ developers, and now U2 programmers use. I have built in Search. I have built in Version control. I have built in the ability to have two different accounts open. I have the ability see my variables and internal subroutines. I can close those subroutines by click on the minus and opening up with a plus. I can double click on a variable and see on the ruler bar where it is used throughout the program. The least understood feature I cannot live without anymore is continuous compile. I no longer wait to compile my program to see what typos I make, Universe and Unidata compiler are telling me while I type. If fail to assign a value to a variable, I know as I'm typing. This alone is worth the price of admission. That perception is what I've been preaching about for years. It can impact you as the developer or it can impact the entire organization. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.html "XLr8Editor for Universe and Unidata" ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
Whether we are talking about Telnet that uses port 23 or UniObjects that uses or 31438 or HTTP that uses 80, it not the port that is the problem. It is not the way packets are transported or what overhead each different protocol has. The fact remains for me it is the presentation. Why do you think the new Metro interface from Microsoft is used "...in order to create a unified and distinctive look across it consumer product and services." It is the presentation that catches our eye. When you are programming with the Telnet interface screen running behind whatever you are using for an editor, then you will catch someone's eye but not in good way. You can couch it with this runs faster, or you are more productive, or it's simple to use: it does not really matter. They have seen that editor does not that elegance. When I fire up Eclipse they notice I have a real workbench with menu bars, tool bars, different perspectives, views, and status bars. My screen looks like a real editor because it is a real editor that Java developers, PHP developer, C developers, C++ developers, and now U2 programmers use. I have built in Search. I have built in Version control. I have built in the ability to have two different accounts open. I have the ability see my variables and internal subroutines. I can close those subroutines by click on the minus and opening up with a plus. I can double click on a variable and see on the ruler bar where it is used throughout the program. The least understood feature I cannot live without anymore is continuous compile. I no longer wait to compile my program to see what typos I make, Universe and Unidata compiler are telling me while I type. If fail to assign a value to a variable, I know as I'm typing. This alone is worth the price of admission. That perception is what I've been preaching about for years. It can impact you as the developer or it can impact the entire organization. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.html "XLr8Editor for Universe and Unidata" ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
> From: Bill Haskett > Just to let people know, mvNET offer telnet as one of > the connection methods (I use uodotnet) but it's fine > for external developers for our ..NET application. > Also, if I'm not mistaken, Fusionware uses telnet as > their underlying connection method. (mv.NET also supports SSH) I think some people misunderstand what Telnet is. It's two things in one. Traditionally we recognize Telnet as the mechanism that displays characters on a X-by-Y screen. Telnet clients interpret specific escape sequences as screen positioning and other @(-x) features that we all know (hehe and love). The protocol is disparaged for what we see. Underneath, Telnet is a socket protcol which manages the transport of data. The above description describes the kind of data that's transported, but that same data could be transported over any protocol, even SMTP/email if you don't mind it taking a few minutes for your screen to refresh, or Usenet/NNTP if you don't mind waiting hours or days. All socket protocols wrap data in a sequence of characters, with headers describing the data and a body containing the payload itself. UniObjects uses a proprietary, undocumented protocol - for all we know it could be binary-encoded Telnet! It's ALL characters, and the ALL work pretty much the same way. Some protocols are better suited to some tasks than others. While I personally believe Telnet can be used as a reasonably fast data transport, some would argue that a 1500 character payload limit makes the protocol too chatty, feature handshaking makes the protocol too bulky, and other factors might add to making it inadequate as a modern transport. But when people are arguing against Telnet, I guarantee you they're not looking at the RFC (spec document) and talking about protocol nuances. I wish we could elevate the discussion to that level and away from gut-level "telnet sux" rhetoric. You can put any client, character or GUI, on any protocol. We don't disparage SMTP because of the Pine text client, because most people use a graphical e-mail client. (Completely OT but I really hate the SMTP protocol and yet we've been irrevocably bound to it for almost 30 years.) We con't disparage FTP for the text interfaces, I'd guess usage of text vs GUI FTP clients is about 50/50 as we rely on text-based FTP for many of our background transfer tasks. So we shouldn't dismiss Telnet as a transport protocol based on its completely unrelated and traditional use with terminal emulation clients. Other arguments may carry weight, not that one. T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyonewould want telnet-based tools
Undelete sometimes works, always been hit or miss for me. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of George Gallen Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 2:22 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyonewould want telnet-based tools Without testing...One advantage that I can think of if you use windows to do the delete is it will get Moved to the trashcan, assuming it's local to the PC, and you can always get it back. If you use dos, I don't think it goes to the trashcan. One of the features I use dos for however is to globally rename files Ren *.txt *.doc -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Phil Walker Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 3:11 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Actually, if you are on a newer version of windows the explorer has a search bar where you can filter on anything including extension. From there do your deletions in the current directory only ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
Without testing...One advantage that I can think of if you use windows to do the delete is it will get Moved to the trashcan, assuming it's local to the PC, and you can always get it back. If you use dos, I don't think it goes to the trashcan. One of the features I use dos for however is to globally rename files Ren *.txt *.doc -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Phil Walker Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 3:11 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Actually, if you are on a newer version of windows the explorer has a search bar where you can filter on anything including extension. From there do your deletions in the current directory only ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
It's still easier from DOS :) -Original Message- From: Phil Walker To: U2 Users List Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 12:11 pm Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools Actually, if you are on a newer version of windows the explorer has a search bar here you can filter on anything including extension. From there do your eletions in the current directory only > -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Ed Clark Sent: Saturday, 18 February 2012 7:55 a.m. To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools actually your example is pretty easy on current windows versions. Type *.txt into the windows explorer search box, then select and delete. On the upside, when you delete the files, you know for sure what directory you are in because it's in the title bar. On the down side, your search retrieved not just the files in this directory, but in all the sub directories, which could e a plus if that's what you want, but is probably a downside because you still need to narrow the select. I used to use pick on a Stratus computer. The main OS was Stratus' VOS (based on multics, tasted a little like VMS with unix finish). All reen-screen but the VOS commands were very verbose. But for every single command you could press a function key which popped up a form which contained every option/flag/default. They had put a lot of effort into making the VOS command line easy. That could probably be done for a pick command line as well (or for windows). I used to work with Motorola Codex communication equipment (multiplexed hundreds of serial connections over a t1 line so users in remote offices could green-screen into the application. The Codex itself had a serial port that you connected a terminal to to issue management commands (they added telnet later). The command set was pretty simple, but they also provided a gui. there was a pc running Windows 1 with a serial connection. The windows app gave you menus and forms, and then types commands to the control port and captured and screen-scraped (just a little) the output. The thing is, when they trained out people to use the system, they never mentioned that you could just use a terminal. The program was godawful and crashed all the time. It was completely in the way of issuing simple commands. My point is that if you know the commands then just typing them is easy, and you probably don't want a gui in the way. If you don't know them, a user interface (either gui or text) can make it easier--or just be a crutch. As for why telnet is still around--don't beat up on telnet. it's just a rotocol. If you wanted to, you could write iPad apps that used telnet as a transport. you could put a beautiful gui on the front of an app running on an old pick box that can only do telnet. The real question is why is green-screen still around, and that has been argued endlessly. It's still here and a lot of people like it. On Feb 17, 2012, at 12:09 PM, Wjhonson wrote: > > "Why is DOS still on Windows? Because there are some things you just > can't do easily with windows," > > Just the other day I did a > del *.txt > > pretty trivial to do at the DOS prompt. Rather more cumbersome to do > in a Window click click click point, select click click select point lick. > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: George Gallen > To: U2 Users List > Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 6:20 am > Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox > > > Why? Because it has almost no overhead, and has the most flexibility. > Can the 3 year old (assuming they understood the process) select items > from one ile based on selection Then pull items from another file > using a related ID and save that list. > Perform that again on two other files and save that list. > Merge those two, and then push that list into an application that > emails a file The above would take 2-3 min to do with telnet. > IT would take significantly longer to do with a GUI front end. > telnet is excellent for administration and development. Once you know > what you ant, then you an use the GUI to setup a nice interface for > those that want to point and lick. > Why is DOS still on Windows? Because there are some things you just > can't do asily with windows, r without writing/buying an application. > George > -Original Message- > rom: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org > [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] > n Behalf Of Doug Averch > ent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:17 PM > o: U2 Users List > ubject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox > > hy are we
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
Actually, if you are on a newer version of windows the explorer has a search bar where you can filter on anything including extension. From there do your deletions in the current directory only > -Original Message- > From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- > boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Ed Clark > Sent: Saturday, 18 February 2012 7:55 a.m. > To: U2 Users List > Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want > telnet-based tools > > actually your example is pretty easy on current windows versions. Type > *.txt into the windows explorer search box, then select and delete. On the > upside, when you delete the files, you know for sure what directory you are > in because it's in the title bar. On the down side, your search retrieved not > just the files in this directory, but in all the sub directories, which could > be > a plus if that's what you want, but is probably a downside because you still > need to narrow the select. > > I used to use pick on a Stratus computer. The main OS was Stratus' VOS > (based on multics, tasted a little like VMS with unix finish). All > green-screen > but the VOS commands were very verbose. But for every single command > you could press a function key which popped up a form which contained > every option/flag/default. They had put a lot of effort into making the VOS > command line easy. That could probably be done for a pick command line > as well (or for windows). > > I used to work with Motorola Codex communication equipment > (multiplexed hundreds of serial connections over a t1 line so users in > remote offices could green-screen into the application. The Codex itself had > a serial port that you connected a terminal to to issue management > commands (they added telnet later). The command set was pretty simple, > but they also provided a gui. there was a pc running Windows 1 with a > serial connection. The windows app gave you menus and forms, and then > types commands to the control port and captured and screen-scraped (just > a little) the output. The thing is, when they trained out people to use the > system, they never mentioned that you could just use a terminal. The > program was godawful and crashed all the time. It was completely in the > way of issuing simple commands. > > My point is that if you know the commands then just typing them is easy, > and you probably don't want a gui in the way. If you don't know them, a > user interface (either gui or text) can make it easier--or just be a crutch. > > As for why telnet is still around--don't beat up on telnet. it's just a > protocol. > If you wanted to, you could write iPad apps that used telnet as a transport. > you could put a beautiful gui on the front of an app running on an old pick > box that can only do telnet. > > The real question is why is green-screen still around, and that has been > argued endlessly. It's still here and a lot of people like it. > > > > > On Feb 17, 2012, at 12:09 PM, Wjhonson wrote: > > > > > "Why is DOS still on Windows? Because there are some things you just > > can't do easily with windows," > > > > Just the other day I did a > > del *.txt > > > > pretty trivial to do at the DOS prompt. Rather more cumbersome to do > > in a Window click click click point, select click click select point > > click. > > > > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: George Gallen > > To: U2 Users List > > Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 6:20 am > > Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox > > > > > > Why? Because it has almost no overhead, and has the most flexibility. > > Can the 3 year old (assuming they understood the process) select items > > from one ile based on selection Then pull items from another file > > using a related ID and save that list. > > Perform that again on two other files and save that list. > > Merge those two, and then push that list into an application that > > emails a file The above would take 2-3 min to do with telnet. > > IT would take significantly longer to do with a GUI front end. > > telnet is excellent for administration and development. Once you know > > what you ant, then you an use the GUI to setup a nice interface for > > those that want to point and lick. > > Why is DOS still on Windows? Because there are some things you just > > can't do asily with windows, r without writing/buying an application. > > George > > -Original Message- > > rom: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org > > [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
Green screen is still around because the dollar is still around. When we get to the society where you can work on what you want, and still get paid a living wage, then green screen will probably go away. Will "it works don't break it" Johnson -Original Message- From: Ed Clark To: U2 Users List Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 10:55 am Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools actually your example is pretty easy on current windows versions. Type *.txt nto the windows explorer search box, then select and delete. On the upside, hen you delete the files, you know for sure what directory you are in because t's in the title bar. On the down side, your search retrieved not just the iles in this directory, but in all the sub directories, which could be a plus f that's what you want, but is probably a downside because you still need to arrow the select. I used to use pick on a Stratus computer. The main OS was Stratus' VOS (based on ultics, tasted a little like VMS with unix finish). All green-screen but the OS commands were very verbose. But for every single command you could press a unction key which popped up a form which contained every option/flag/default. hey had put a lot of effort into making the VOS command line easy. That could robably be done for a pick command line as well (or for windows). I used to work with Motorola Codex communication equipment (multiplexed hundreds f serial connections over a t1 line so users in remote offices could reen-screen into the application. The Codex itself had a serial port that you onnected a terminal to to issue management commands (they added telnet later). he command set was pretty simple, but they also provided a gui. there was a pc unning Windows 1 with a serial connection. The windows app gave you menus and orms, and then types commands to the control port and captured and creen-scraped (just a little) the output. The thing is, when they trained out eople to use the system, they never mentioned that you could just use a erminal. The program was godawful and crashed all the time. It was completely n the way of issuing simple commands. My point is that if you know the commands then just typing them is easy, and you robably don't want a gui in the way. If you don't know them, a user interface either gui or text) can make it easier--or just be a crutch. As for why telnet is still around--don't beat up on telnet. it's just a rotocol. If you wanted to, you could write iPad apps that used telnet as a ransport. you could put a beautiful gui on the front of an app running on an ld pick box that can only do telnet. The real question is why is green-screen still around, and that has been argued ndlessly. It's still here and a lot of people like it. n Feb 17, 2012, at 12:09 PM, Wjhonson wrote: > "Why is DOS still on Windows? Because there are some things you just can't do easily with windows," Just the other day I did a del *.txt pretty trivial to do at the DOS prompt. Rather more cumbersome to do in a indow click click click point, select click click select point click. -Original Message- From: George Gallen To: U2 Users List Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 6:20 am Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox Why? Because it has almost no overhead, and has the most flexibility. Can the 3 year old (assuming they understood the process) select items from ne ile based on selection Then pull items from another file using a related ID and save that list. Perform that again on two other files and save that list. Merge those two, and then push that list into an application that emails a ile The above would take 2-3 min to do with telnet. IT would take significantly longer to do with a GUI front end. telnet is excellent for administration and development. Once you know what you > ant, then you an use the GUI to setup a nice interface for those that want to point and lick. Why is DOS still on Windows? Because there are some things you just can't do asily with windows, r without writing/buying an application. George -Original Message- rom: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] > n Behalf Of Doug Averch ent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:17 PM o: U2 Users List ubject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox hy are we using telnet in 2 as our main form of communication? In today's world a 3 year old can use an iPad to access a Universe or nidata database application. We sell an Alpaca herd management that runs n the iPad and our granddaughter used the application "Who's your daddy?" o find out who the alpaca's daddy is. Sorry, another digression. Regards, oug __ 2-Users mailing list 2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org ttp://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
Ed: Just to let people know, mvNET offer telnet as one of the connection methods (I use uodotnet) but it's fine for external developers for our .NET application. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Fusionware uses telnet as their underlying connection method. Bill - Original Message - *From:* u...@edclark.net *To:* U2 Users List *Date:* 2/17/2012 10:54 AM *Subject:* Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools actually your example is pretty easy on current windows versions. Type *.txt into the windows explorer search box, then select and delete. On the upside, when you delete the files, you know for sure what directory you are in because it's in the title bar. On the down side, your search retrieved not just the files in this directory, but in all the sub directories, which could be a plus if that's what you want, but is probably a downside because you still need to narrow the select. I used to use pick on a Stratus computer. The main OS was Stratus' VOS (based on multics, tasted a little like VMS with unix finish). All green-screen but the VOS commands were very verbose. But for every single command you could press a function key which popped up a form which contained every option/flag/default. They had put a lot of effort into making the VOS command line easy. That could probably be done for a pick command line as well (or for windows). I used to work with Motorola Codex communication equipment (multiplexed hundreds of serial connections over a t1 line so users in remote offices could green-screen into the application. The Codex itself had a serial port that you connected a terminal to to issue management commands (they added telnet later). The command set was pretty simple, but they also provided a gui. there was a pc running Windows 1 with a serial connection. The windows app gave you menus and forms, and then types commands to the control port and captured and screen-scraped (just a little) the output. The thing is, when they trained out people to use the system, they never mentioned that you could just use a terminal. The program was godawful and crashed all the time. It was completely in the way of issuing simple commands. My point is that if you know the commands then just typing them is easy, and you probably don't want a gui in the way. If you don't know them, a user interface (either gui or text) can make it easier--or just be a crutch. As for why telnet is still around--don't beat up on telnet. it's just a protocol. If you wanted to, you could write iPad apps that used telnet as a transport. you could put a beautiful gui on the front of an app running on an old pick box that can only do telnet. The real question is why is green-screen still around, and that has been argued endlessly. It's still here and a lot of people like it. [snipped] -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] on Behalf Of Doug Averch Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:17 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox Why are we using telnet in 2 as our main form of communication? In today's world a 3 year old can use an iPad to access a Universe or Unidata database application. We sell an Alpaca herd management that runs on the iPad and our granddaughter used the application "Who's your daddy?" to find out who the alpaca's daddy is. Sorry, another digression. Regards, Doug ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox--digression about why anyone would want telnet-based tools
actually your example is pretty easy on current windows versions. Type *.txt into the windows explorer search box, then select and delete. On the upside, when you delete the files, you know for sure what directory you are in because it's in the title bar. On the down side, your search retrieved not just the files in this directory, but in all the sub directories, which could be a plus if that's what you want, but is probably a downside because you still need to narrow the select. I used to use pick on a Stratus computer. The main OS was Stratus' VOS (based on multics, tasted a little like VMS with unix finish). All green-screen but the VOS commands were very verbose. But for every single command you could press a function key which popped up a form which contained every option/flag/default. They had put a lot of effort into making the VOS command line easy. That could probably be done for a pick command line as well (or for windows). I used to work with Motorola Codex communication equipment (multiplexed hundreds of serial connections over a t1 line so users in remote offices could green-screen into the application. The Codex itself had a serial port that you connected a terminal to to issue management commands (they added telnet later). The command set was pretty simple, but they also provided a gui. there was a pc running Windows 1 with a serial connection. The windows app gave you menus and forms, and then types commands to the control port and captured and screen-scraped (just a little) the output. The thing is, when they trained out people to use the system, they never mentioned that you could just use a terminal. The program was godawful and crashed all the time. It was completely in the way of issuing simple commands. My point is that if you know the commands then just typing them is easy, and you probably don't want a gui in the way. If you don't know them, a user interface (either gui or text) can make it easier--or just be a crutch. As for why telnet is still around--don't beat up on telnet. it's just a protocol. If you wanted to, you could write iPad apps that used telnet as a transport. you could put a beautiful gui on the front of an app running on an old pick box that can only do telnet. The real question is why is green-screen still around, and that has been argued endlessly. It's still here and a lot of people like it. On Feb 17, 2012, at 12:09 PM, Wjhonson wrote: > > "Why is DOS still on Windows? Because there are some things you just can't do > easily with windows," > > Just the other day I did a > del *.txt > > pretty trivial to do at the DOS prompt. Rather more cumbersome to do in a > Window > click click click point, select click click select point click. > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: George Gallen > To: U2 Users List > Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 6:20 am > Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox > > > Why? Because it has almost no overhead, and has the most flexibility. > Can the 3 year old (assuming they understood the process) select items from > one > ile based on selection > Then pull items from another file using a related ID and save that list. > Perform that again on two other files and save that list. > Merge those two, and then push that list into an application that emails a > file > The above would take 2-3 min to do with telnet. > IT would take significantly longer to do with a GUI front end. > telnet is excellent for administration and development. Once you know what > you > ant, then you > an use the GUI to setup a nice interface for those that want to point and > lick. > Why is DOS still on Windows? Because there are some things you just can't do > asily with windows, > r without writing/buying an application. > George > -Original Message- > rom: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org > [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] > n Behalf Of Doug Averch > ent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:17 PM > o: U2 Users List > ubject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox > > hy are we using telnet in > 2 as our main form of communication? > In today's world a 3 year old can use an iPad to access a Universe or > nidata database application. We sell an Alpaca herd management that runs > n the iPad and our granddaughter used the application "Who's your daddy?" > o find out who the alpaca's daddy is. Sorry, another digression. > Regards, > oug > __ > 2-Users mailing list > 2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org > ttp://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users > > ___ > U2-Users mailing list > U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org > http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox
Sockets were developed when a system was capable of handling more than One listening service! IP just wasn't good enough - now you needed a port# too. Proabably not historically correct...but most likely functionally correct. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 12:16 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox Gee...I wonder when sockets were developed? They must be archaic too! :-) Bill ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox
Gee...I wonder when sockets were developed? They must be archaic too! :-) Bill - Original Message - *From:* dave...@gmail.com *To:* U2 Users List *Date:* 2/16/2012 7:16 PM *Subject:* Re: [U2] mvToolbox Tony, my worry is about support in the future if you cannot keep your website functional today. Never did I say that product was not as advertised. Telnet is archaic and was developed around late 1960's. So when you are using SQL Server, or Oracle, or Informix do you use telnet to do anything to interact with the database? Of course not! Why are we using telnet in U2 as our main form of communication? If you want to look like a shop that restores old cars, then keep on using Telnet as your form of communication. I'm sure I can phone you on a rotary phone that works or maybe I should get out of my desk drawer and call you on my Princess phone. (I'm using sarcasm to make my point.) In today's world a 3 year old can use an iPad to access a Universe or Unidata database application. We sell an Alpaca herd management that runs on the iPad and our granddaughter used the application "Who's your daddy?" to find out who the alpaca's daddy is. Sorry, another digression. Oh, mvDeveloper and BDT are free, so we cannot use the cheap phrase here. Well, XLr8Editor is not free so we can use the phrase for that product. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.html www.alpacalogic.com To Doug, you imply that GUI=productive which is as invalid as telnet=unproductive. I also hoped that you would have restrained your competitive instincts in just this one case. You don't need to stomp on other products to promote your own. You'll note that no one stomps on your threads when you make an announcement. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox
"Why is DOS still on Windows? Because there are some things you just can't do easily with windows," Just the other day I did a del *.txt pretty trivial to do at the DOS prompt. Rather more cumbersome to do in a Window click click click point, select click click select point click. -Original Message- From: George Gallen To: U2 Users List Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 6:20 am Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox Why? Because it has almost no overhead, and has the most flexibility. Can the 3 year old (assuming they understood the process) select items from one ile based on selection Then pull items from another file using a related ID and save that list. Perform that again on two other files and save that list. Merge those two, and then push that list into an application that emails a file The above would take 2-3 min to do with telnet. IT would take significantly longer to do with a GUI front end. telnet is excellent for administration and development. Once you know what you ant, then you an use the GUI to setup a nice interface for those that want to point and lick. Why is DOS still on Windows? Because there are some things you just can't do asily with windows, r without writing/buying an application. George -Original Message- rom: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] n Behalf Of Doug Averch ent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:17 PM o: U2 Users List ubject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox hy are we using telnet in 2 as our main form of communication? In today's world a 3 year old can use an iPad to access a Universe or nidata database application. We sell an Alpaca herd management that runs n the iPad and our granddaughter used the application "Who's your daddy?" o find out who the alpaca's daddy is. Sorry, another digression. Regards, oug __ 2-Users mailing list 2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org ttp://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox
Why? Because it has almost no overhead, and has the most flexibility. Can the 3 year old (assuming they understood the process) select items from one file based on selection Then pull items from another file using a related ID and save that list. Perform that again on two other files and save that list. Merge those two, and then push that list into an application that emails a file The above would take 2-3 min to do with telnet. IT would take significantly longer to do with a GUI front end. telnet is excellent for administration and development. Once you know what you want, then you can use the GUI to setup a nice interface for those that want to point and click. Why is DOS still on Windows? Because there are some things you just can't do easily with windows, Or without writing/buying an application. George -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:17 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox Why are we using telnet in U2 as our main form of communication? In today's world a 3 year old can use an iPad to access a Universe or Unidata database application. We sell an Alpaca herd management that runs on the iPad and our granddaughter used the application "Who's your daddy?" to find out who the alpaca's daddy is. Sorry, another digression. Regards, Doug ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox
Whilst I understand where you are coming from Doug. I think we get too caught up that telnet is negative. Microsoft had to bend to demand for a command line system for Windows because the tech guys said it was too slow to do things in Windows forms. When I talk to Oracle databases, SQL Server database, I am still working with command prompt windows with some flash around them. Remember that easily 40% of code is still written in Cobol. There are mainframes in multinationals across the world still using green screen systems and paying a lot of money for them. Systems administrators across the world are driving unix, linux and windows systems through command prompt windows. The concern about telnet is more in the heads of U2 developers than in the customer base. It is like the aversion to the word PICK, people are nervous about a negative reaction from mainstream IT. But we have a new generation of IT people who have never heard of PICK, never mind having a closed mind to it. Rather than getting caught up debating whether people are against telnet, we should promote its positives. I have seen a company just buy a brand new cobol GL system. If they would buy a Cobol system, why wouldn't they buy a PICK GL. We are our own worst critics. If anyone has worked in a mainframe site and saw some of the systems they are working with, they would be shocked. I think we have an incredible opportunity to grow U2 business in the current economic environment, if it was not for us tripping ourselves up by underselling U2 technology. My 2c David Jordan ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox
Tony, my worry is about support in the future if you cannot keep your website functional today. Never did I say that product was not as advertised. Telnet is archaic and was developed around late 1960's. So when you are using SQL Server, or Oracle, or Informix do you use telnet to do anything to interact with the database? Of course not! Why are we using telnet in U2 as our main form of communication? If you want to look like a shop that restores old cars, then keep on using Telnet as your form of communication. I'm sure I can phone you on a rotary phone that works or maybe I should get out of my desk drawer and call you on my Princess phone. (I'm using sarcasm to make my point.) In today's world a 3 year old can use an iPad to access a Universe or Unidata database application. We sell an Alpaca herd management that runs on the iPad and our granddaughter used the application "Who's your daddy?" to find out who the alpaca's daddy is. Sorry, another digression. Oh, mvDeveloper and BDT are free, so we cannot use the cheap phrase here. Well, XLr8Editor is not free so we can use the phrase for that product. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.html www.alpacalogic.com > To Doug, you imply that GUI=productive which is as invalid as > telnet=unproductive. I also hoped that you would have restrained > your competitive instincts in just this one case. You don't need > to stomp on other products to promote your own. You'll note that > no one stomps on your threads when you make an announcement. > > ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox
> From: Wol > Tony Gravagno wrote: > > To Doug, you imply that GUI=productive which is as invalid as > > telnet=unproductive. > Actually, I think it's pretty much a given that gui=UNproductive. Well, in all fairness, I don't put that extreme postion on the medium either. Maybe we can agree that a poorly designed GUI can be unproductive, and since it's so easy for any knucklehead to create a basic GUI, we tend to see a lot of unproductive UI's. With skillful engineers collaborating with end-users who seek to derive specific benefits, I think it's possible to create a productive GUI. On topic here - mvToolbox is basically a character-screen tool, using AccuTerm, wIntegrate, SecureCRT, or other emulators to support mouse access to items, help, and other features. Doug's tool uses Eclipse which is an industry standard for Java, PHP, and other languages. When I think about mvToolbox, I don't care about the UI - what's important is the functionality that UI leads to. And _that_ is where I believe this product really shines. It allows us to do common MV things, and a lot of things we simply can't do without code, with a UI that we already use every day, and in a manner that's consistent across platforms. T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox
A GUI is useful for 1. Web users who have no idea what criteria your system is using and have to be helped for every single field (including Name) 2. Novice clerks, or those filling in for someone on vacation, temps, and so on. 3. PHBs "what does this big red button do that says 'Don't press this button?' " -Original Message- From: Wols Lists To: u2-users Sent: Thu, Feb 16, 2012 4:23 pm Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox On 16/02/12 23:09, Tony Gravagno wrote: To Doug, you imply that GUI=productive which is as invalid as telnet=unproductive. I also hoped that you would have restrained your competitive instincts in just this one case. You don't need to stomp on other products to promote your own. You'll note that no one stomps on your threads when you make an announcement. Actually, I think it's pretty much a given that gui=UNproductive. The whole point of a gui seems to be to make things easy for novices, to he extent that they are *prevented* from becoming experts. Have you ver tried touch-typing in a gui word processor? You're supposed NOT to ook at the screen, so that anything that accidentally or unexpectedly riggers a gui pop-up will send your productivity down the pan! Okay, I know that's a generalisation and some guis help, but ime they're ew and far between ... Unfortunately, PHBs seem to like them (probably because they have no dea how to actually do real work :-) Cheers, ol __ 2-Users mailing list 2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org ttp://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox
On 16/02/12 23:09, Tony Gravagno wrote: > To Doug, you imply that GUI=productive which is as invalid as > telnet=unproductive. I also hoped that you would have restrained > your competitive instincts in just this one case. You don't need > to stomp on other products to promote your own. You'll note that > no one stomps on your threads when you make an announcement. Actually, I think it's pretty much a given that gui=UNproductive. The whole point of a gui seems to be to make things easy for novices, to the extent that they are *prevented* from becoming experts. Have you ever tried touch-typing in a gui word processor? You're supposed NOT to look at the screen, so that anything that accidentally or unexpectedly triggers a gui pop-up will send your productivity down the pan! Okay, I know that's a generalisation and some guis help, but ime they're few and far between ... Unfortunately, PHBs seem to like them (probably because they have no idea how to actually do real work :-) Cheers, Wol ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox
> From: Doug Averch > The goal of any tool is to make us, programmers, more productive. > > Wjhonson wrote: > > There's no market for a tool that runs on a telnet system. To Wil, I suggest in agreement with Doug that productivity is unrelated to the connection mechanism. mvToolbox is indeed a product that improves productivity. To Doug, you imply that GUI=productive which is as invalid as telnet=unproductive. I also hoped that you would have restrained your competitive instincts in just this one case. You don't need to stomp on other products to promote your own. You'll note that no one stomps on your threads when you make an announcement. In fact Doug, I'd suggest to you that an inquiry for partnership between you and Bro would be more advantageous than a pre-emptive strike against him. His rules behind your Eclipse-based GUI could create a "gotta have it" tool that few could resist, including myself. mvToolbox is much more familiar to Pick people than external tools. This is part of its appeal. If you're more a DesignBais kind of person than a mv.NET person, this might be for you. The audiences are really quite different and there's no real competition between them. I suggest anyone who feels there should be "a better way" might want to just look at mvToolbox - whether you want an alternative to AE/ED or to other GUI offerings. T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox
Wil, you're asking a question from the product website or doc. I just wanted to make people aware of the offering here, in response to a specific request. At this point I suggest anyone with interest take questions to the vendor. > From: Wjhonson > "As you type compiler messages from the real compiler" > This one sounds a bit odd to me. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox
"As you type compiler messages from the real compiler" This one sounds a bit odd to me. So I have a dimensioned variable called Billing.Array And on a new line I'm typing "Billing.Array(5) = 100" And as I'm typing this it keeps telling me "End of line unexpected" on each keystroke or something like that until I reach the '1' ? Or what. -Original Message- From: Doug Averch To: U2 Users List Sent: Thu, Feb 16, 2012 11:12 am Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox The goal of any tool is to make us, programmers, more productive. I've sed Accuterm back in 90's and even with all of the enhancements, it equires a telnet session to work. Not the best way to show new rogrammers that you have a telnet session open to compile a program. The big question I always ask is does this make me productive? To a imited extent telnet emulators do whether it is Accuterm or wIntegrate. elow are a list of productive features that are off the top of my head hat an Eclipse editor brings to the table: 1) Ability to see where each variable is used by line number and is lickable ) Built-in version control without need of scripts on any UniBasic code to mplement ) All programs you edit are stored locally every time you hit the save or ompile option ) Built-in compare editor between database and local version to customer nd shipping version ) Hit a function key to look at the INCLUDE or the CALL routine ) Built-in search function that shows the matching line number ) Ability to have editors open to Customers, QA box, and a live box in one clipse session. ) As you type compiler messages from the real compiler There is a IT manager I've know for 30 years now, said to me recently, I etter get your tools in here and get my programmers up to speed on them or hey might not have jobs when I retire next year. Think about Regards, oug ww.u2logic.com/tools.html Editors, Resizing, Installing, and Web Development tools" n Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 7:08 PM, Wjhonson wrote: > There's no market for a tool that runs on a telnet system. Except I think Accuterm is still selling licenses. And it's essentially a tool on a telnet. I mean it's not UVShell. The enhancements are what sells it, for me at least. __ 2-Users mailing list 2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org ttp://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox
The goal of any tool is to make us, programmers, more productive. I've used Accuterm back in 90's and even with all of the enhancements, it requires a telnet session to work. Not the best way to show new programmers that you have a telnet session open to compile a program. The big question I always ask is does this make me productive? To a limited extent telnet emulators do whether it is Accuterm or wIntegrate. Below are a list of productive features that are off the top of my head that an Eclipse editor brings to the table: 1) Ability to see where each variable is used by line number and is clickable 2) Built-in version control without need of scripts on any UniBasic code to implement 3) All programs you edit are stored locally every time you hit the save or compile option 4) Built-in compare editor between database and local version to customer and shipping version 5) Hit a function key to look at the INCLUDE or the CALL routine 6) Built-in search function that shows the matching line number 7) Ability to have editors open to Customers, QA box, and a live box in one Eclipse session. 8) As you type compiler messages from the real compiler There is a IT manager I've know for 30 years now, said to me recently, I better get your tools in here and get my programmers up to speed on them or they might not have jobs when I retire next year. Think about Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/tools.html "Editors, Resizing, Installing, and Web Development tools" On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 7:08 PM, Wjhonson wrote: > > There's no market for a tool that runs on a telnet system. > Except I think Accuterm is still selling licenses. And it's essentially a > tool on a telnet. > I mean it's not UVShell. The enhancements are what sells it, for me at > least. > > > ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox
There's no market for a tool that runs on a telnet system. Except I think Accuterm is still selling licenses. And it's essentially a tool on a telnet. I mean it's not UVShell. The enhancements are what sells it, for me at least. -Original Message- From: Doug Averch To: U2 Users List Sent: Wed, Feb 15, 2012 6:02 pm Subject: Re: [U2] mvToolbox You are telling us a great story with a very unhappy ending for a tool hat may have been great in 1995. There is no market for a tool that runs n telnet system no matter what great features it has or could have. That ould be like me telling you can code in Java using VI or EMACS. Or better et, try writing .NET code using Wordpad or Notepad. Neither one of hose scenarios would happen, so why do U2 programmer's think it's okay to se antiquated tools. The MV road is littered with tools that someone wrote thinking they had the ext System Builder or wIntegrate. Whether you are looking at Rocket's DT, U2logic's XLr8Editor or Brian's MVDeveloper, we all better if every rogrammer was using a modern tool that does not look like a DOS editor. If I'm doing a demo, working at a client, or just from the office, I'm lways using our tool. It has been years since a C-suite person wondered hy I'm coding using a line by line editor, because they will never see it appen. Regards, oug ww.u2logic.com XLr8Editor still only $49.00" __ 2-Users mailing list 2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org ttp://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox
You are telling us a great story with a very unhappy ending for a tool that may have been great in 1995. There is no market for a tool that runs on telnet system no matter what great features it has or could have. That would be like me telling you can code in Java using VI or EMACS. Or better yet, try writing .NET code using Wordpad or Notepad. Neither one of those scenarios would happen, so why do U2 programmer's think it's okay to use antiquated tools. The MV road is littered with tools that someone wrote thinking they had the next System Builder or wIntegrate. Whether you are looking at Rocket's BDT, U2logic's XLr8Editor or Brian's MVDeveloper, we all better if every programmer was using a modern tool that does not look like a DOS editor. If I'm doing a demo, working at a client, or just from the office, I'm always using our tool. It has been years since a C-suite person wondered why I'm coding using a line by line editor, because they will never see it happen. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com "XLr8Editor still only $49.00" ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] mvToolbox
> From: Doug Averch > I saw this software many years ago at Spectrum > conference. So I clicked on the link to see what's > new. Most of the pages are dead and the ones that are > not are hopeless out of date. See your comment from > 2004 on http://www.mvtoolbox.com/Testimonials.1.html. > > I would be very worried that any product I get from > them would not be well supported if they cannot get > their web site in order. I heard this from someone else too so I'll respond. Bro Cope, the author of mvToolbox has been putting his heart into this software for a couple decades. In short, mvToolbox is a character-based editor on steroids - it does what Pick people want but without an unfamiliar GUI which simply turns some people off. Doug - you, Brian L, Bob R, Pete S, Fred T, Doug L, myself, and others here have the same sort of passion for tools that we create for this industry. Bro invested in marketing a few years ago and unfortunately blew his budget without getting the returns required for the product to sustain itself. We've all been there. It's sometimes tough to get back on the horse - sometimes the horse runs away and we're left walking. So Bro has this really great software but an old and icky website, and not many venues for getting his software into the hands of people who can use it. He's even now offering it for free just to get it out there. He seems to suffer from the same missing gene as most of us Pick people - he's not a marketing guy and he isn't a web developer. OK, those skills aren't in his DNA and he doesn't have anyone else working for him. But I think people can cut him some slack and check out the fine offering despite the rough packaging. The software deserves it and so does Bro. The rewards for using his software can make the inquiry well worth the effort. The only problem with the software, IMO, is that it does a Lot more than any product should - it's like Photoshop where most people are used to PC Paint, it's MS Word where most people use Notepad (or AE or ED). And the documentation to support the deep functionality is overwhelming. I've suggested to him that he disable features to create a Lite product and upsell the Pro version once people "get it". It's a helluva thing to say a product does too much and is over-documented, but there ya go. It's for these reasons that I don't use the software daily myself, but that doesn't stop me from recommending it to others who spend more time in BASIC. Maybe if Bro can sell a couple licenses he'll be able to dedicate some time to cleaning up his website and trimming down his documentation. In the mean time, it costs people nothing (for a year?) for anyone here to just endure a little grief to get their hands on this software, and the benefits could be huge. Questions can be directed here: http://groups.google.com/group/mvtoolbox/about HTH T > Tony Gravagno wrote: > > mvToolbox is one of the best products in this > > industry, but it's largely unknown and thus seriously > > under-appreciated. Get a 1-year (!?) free trial: > > http://www.mvtoolbox.com > > > > No, I have nothing to gain from recommending this > > software. I am not a developer, sales rep, nor > > providing related services. It's just good software > > that deserves an occasional mention. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
